Talk about bias:

Why would anyone cringe when the Terminator became Governor ?

(Didn't he terminate an incumbent California Governor whose own policies ie such as those on the energy front negatively impacted his own constituents ?)

Other than that, history has shown that once various issues have been identified, especially " scientific theory = scientific FACT " ,
Gov'ts have at their disposal their infinite wisdom which is only surpassed by their infinite resources in order to legislate solutions and enforce compliance.

We simply need more bureaucracy and ummm ....errr..oh yeah..something to pay for it...higher taxes, fees, levies,permits, royalties etc.

Problem solved.

One more thing....locate the head office in Ottawa or Quebec.

I know I am not surprised. The western developed and the eastern developing economies are based on fossil 'fools' (sic).

Why would government want to give up on the royalties? Why would Oil companies want to forego profits; ever increasing as existing pools dwindle and new pools are harder to find (if at all) and get at.

At what price do we break our designed addiction?

Why not a Conservation on Climate Change also? Wait, the provincial government views the oil and gas industry as a sustainable one! Good to the last drop!

Kyoto was never affordable. It was a corrupt agreement from the start. The federal Liberals swept this under the rug and spun us with PR campaigns about the "1 ton challenge". That was a fraud and a cynical trick to give Canadians a warm fuzzy instead of actually doing something about the environment. The federal Liberals up to their usual tricks…

At least the Conservatives are being more honest about their policies and their stance on Kyoto. Let's see where their new plan leads.

It is time for Kyoto II. The original would never work because of the "hot air credit" system which was effectively a bribe to Russia to get them to sign. In this respect the Green lobby let us down. They set up a corrupt agreement with unrealistic goals and then tried to ram it down our throats using guilt, alarmism about dire consequences, and PR manipulation.

I think this is part of the (not so) secret cabal that is planned for putting Canadian and Mexican resources and military under US control.

And it's happening in the provinces, as well. It appears that BC can no longer have greater environmental protection than Alberta.

Why did I spend all that energy and effort moving here? If you don't want to live in the US, folks, pick up the pen and get on the phone!

Here's a good policy paper on Kyoto (written by Thomas Schilling, a Nobel laureate).

http://www.irchina.org/xueren/foreign/view.asp?id=66

"It requires a sense of humor to appreciate this latest modification of the Kyoto Protocol: respectable governments being willing to pay money, or make their domestic industries pay money, to an ailing former enemy in the guise of a sophisticated emissions-trading scheme. The purpose is to bribe the recipient into ratifying a treaty and providing governments a cheap way to buy out of emissions commitments, with the pretense that it serves to reduce emissions in accordance with the principle of comparative advantage."

Plus this less confrontational policy paper:
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/GreenhouseEffect.html

I actually agree with PLF, Kyoto introduced a market mechanism to try to bring down emissions. Markets don't work, therefore Kyoto won't work. We do need a Kyoto II that simply mandates change with legislation, forget the funky market schemes.

The status-quo is certainly not affordable, and treaty or no treaty, very little has changed in the last few years. I can't imagine that the Conservative's "government is bad" ideology will produce any improvements, but I'd love to be proven wrong. In the meantime "the one-ton challenge" (David Suzuki's idea, not the Liberals) is at least something that the individual Canadian can do.

Thanks Frank. The market mechanism has been successfully used to reduce/eliminate sulphur. Remember acid rain? Nobody talks about it anymore because of the market mechanism used to eliminate it (a regulated, managed credit trading scheme!). Market mechanisms needs LOTS of regulation plus enforcement teeth to get them to work well (just like our economy and “free market”). Thus these trading schemes only seem to make sense on a national or regional basis (like Canada/USA). The grand global plan of Kyoto was too broad and there is no real legal framework to enforce the thing.

The One Ton Challenge is a David Suzuki idea?! I rest my case.....

Of course the problems with all these little schemes to reduce emissions is that none of them will work. Everything from blue boxes to the one-ton challenge etc won't make up for a few months in the tar sands nor all those smokestacks in China. When people are ready to take real action it'll be too late, c'est la vie.

Its kind of ironic actually that dinosaurs are extinct and fossil fuels will destroy us too :-)

Passaglias Left Foot appears to have taken up the cudgels from some other right wing dinosaurs we haven't heard much from of late. I notice on the Carole Taylor thread that he's not being edited either.

Curious, eh Frank!

Tyee editor,
There's a problem with your 'post' function on the Carole Taylor Finance Quiz thread.

And the earth has reached a level of warmth not seen since the Pliocene era .
And 'Bunny' Ambrose is tinkering with a plan to save us all . God help us .

In fact, the only reason "markets" are used for things like sulfur emissions is so that you can slowly make people stop doing bad things with as little discomfort as possible. That kind of attitude to global catastrophe is exactly why there will never be international will to fix the environment. If acid rain was a really bad thing, sulfur emissions would have been stopped immediately. But because burning coal for electricity is more important than acid rain falling on "economically useless" forests and lakes you get gov't responding with a cutesy market scheme to wind down emissions over decades.

So if it takes decades to wind down sulfur emissions by industry in one country what are the chances of a world-wide market scheme working to reduce pollution to the levels required within let's say, 50 years, when population will be expanding? Exactly, not a chance.

Capitalism trying to save the planet is like a junkie trying to make his life better without giving up the drugs.

When everything has a price, including the environment, its no wonder that we wake up to find things have been "sold".

Hannibal - don't let the facts interfere with an attempted editorial slam......

grumpy:

No, no! CEO's will be able to buy their way out of certain death. Otherwise, what's the use of having all that money.........??????

PLF:

Strangely enough, it's still out there, and the lakes are still acidifying.......
http://www.on.ec.gc.ca/wildlife/acidrain/ar1-e.html#can
Doesn't much sound like the free market in operation here at all. Sounds like companies being forced into complying, rather than "volunteering". Got to get rid of those rose-coloured glasses, my man.........

Hey Alcibiades, if you're suggesting I somehow be banned from this site for my comments then bring it on. It would be a badge of honour to know I got a rise out of the Left. However, I have a better idea. Why don't you refute my comments with your own facts and intellect instead of whining to the Editor. Up for it?

I fail to see anything that Passaglias said that would have so upset Alchi, I also fail to see how the writer knows anything about the Canadian Govt. plans on emissions ( expect more hot air ), when the plan has not been unveiled yet. It's bound to be a lot more effective than the effort of the previous Government.

Just out of curiousity Ron, are you supportive of the Harper gov't reducing emissions if in fact that's what they do?

Seems there are those who don't believe there is a cliff ahead until they are falling over it (it's called "results-based").....by which time, it is too late to apply the brakes, or turn the wheel, or listening to the passengers telling the driver to stop......

The Righties will still be discussing the science behind climate change when people living along the coast are forced from their homes by flood waters. Folks when are we going to stop discussing the merits behind the Kyoto Accord and start doing something constructive to halt climate change? The science behind global warming is not in question! At least not by qualified, unbiased scientists.

The conservatives plan is going to be another waste of tax payers money and another photo op for our prime minister. The speech written by Karl rove himself with nice words like climate change, smog, etc.
I will bet there was not even a scientist in the room when they conderd up this plan. I bet it was the president of suncor, syncrude, an engineer to help with scientific jargon ,Harper and our transportation minister a lawyer from fort mcmurray. I wonder if Harper believes in global warming. I bet not. but who gives a %#%! global warming isn't going to kill me. We are selling our children's future at rock bottom prices.

Kyoto had a market mechanism that would work if the world bought into it. All the crap about "paying money to your enemy" is blarney. People need to understand that developing countries did not have the same limits placed on them because they are not responsible for the CO2 in the air, per capita or otherwise. The second reason was that the developed world built out economies on oil and are uniquely responsible for the CO2 so far in the air. Kyoto was just being sensitive to economic fairness, and the development needs and political realities of the developing world.

The Liberals indeed sold us out as they talked too much and did too little. (As they did in so many areas.)

The Conservatives will bring in mandatory limits for several pollutants. This is better than the Liberals, but still far short of what is necessary.

My generation is the cancer generation (born post 1970). We don't have a clue of all the consequences that will occur from all we have done/are doing to this world.

The Gods from the east speak,

These guys are so funny.

Stephen Harper has his head so far up the Oil Industries &*%^$$$$ that I believe he actually believes what their advisors are telling him: Global Warming is a hoax. At least Paul Martin and the Liberals were aware of climate change and knew steps needed to be taken to stop it. That's why they ratified the Kyoto Protocol. After all, a global crisis requires a global solution, not a national "Made in Canada" one. They also attempted to educate the Canadian public on what each individual could do to reduce their impact on the environment through the one tonne challenge. Each of us can make a big difference by making some small changes in our lives such as using compact fluorescent light bulbs. However, the Tories went in the opposite direction by killing that program.
It's true that the Liberals did not do enough to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. I am sure the upcoming election and their poor showing in the polls had a lot to do with that. But to suggest that Steven Harper will do more to address climate change is a farce. He doesn't give a rats $$%@!& about the environment. The clean air act will be big joke and a waste of money.
Neither the Liberals or the Conservatives will ever do enough to adequately address climate change since they are both in bed with big business. We need to elect either the Green Party or the NDP. They are the only ones committed to saving the planet.

I could bore you all with endless arguments about whether climate change is caused by mankind, or even affected by mankind. I could site endless studies indicating sun spot's, volcanoes or the unexpected cooling of the surface of the ocean. The lack of hurricanes this year, the ever expanding thickness of Arctic and Antarctic ice in the middle of the slab.
In April of this year 60 prominent scientists wrote to the Prime Minister questioning the basis for climate alarm ism.
It's the nature of human ego to think that they control everything. We are not that important. Without us the world would face the same perils that the hysterical left would fear, anyway.
It's a wealth transfer system gone wild.
Don't try to suck me into this junk science.
Climate change is a reality. The question is, do we have anything to do with it? Can our actions change anything?
If there was an asteroid coming at us right now. And we knew it would strike us next year. Could we do anything about it, except to blame ourselves for it?
And Frank, you asked if I really care if the CPC has any bite, or simply political, with their upcoming proposals to reduce pollution. I can only say that I support anyone that can put forward a measurable device, that will attempt to satisfy the needs of the scientific community, while keeping the lid on those that want to use the environment as a tool to cripple our economy.
You better have a better argument than those that use second hand smoke as the route to all evil. Like Al Gore who is now claiming that second hand smoke is contributing to global warming. Give me a break.

Let me guess - the notorious "Friends" of Science? You do know about their ties to big oil, right? And their sketchy "science"? You should really google Tim Ball and some of the other names in that group and see what you get.

There is no debate in the scientific community about the causes of global warming. If the vast, vast majority of credible scientists are convinced that humans are causing it, what's your reason for disagreeing with them? Or are you just baiting people?

While I agree there is a massive amount of alarmism produced by the Green Side about the consequences of global warming, the impact of human-produced CO2 is now difficult to refute. However a cottage industry of deniers has been manufactured (the same gentle folk who denied smoking would damage your health....I'm serious). Check it out:
http://environment.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,,1875762,00.html

People get pretty religious about this stuff - either in one camp or the other. I reckon both are wrong. It has taken about 250 years to produce all this extra CO2 (although mainly the last 50 years). It is going to take 50 years to scale things back. We're not going to fall off a cliff; we'll simply adapt and migrate (as all species have always done). As Dalton McGuinty's scary quote above suggests, there is no political will to halt CO2 production within a short time period. This is going to take decades.

On a brighter note, technological advances are moving quickly - LEDs, solar power, fuel cells. With a little luck and innovation we might see some type of cold fusion. I have more faith in technology and innovation than our political establishment (from Harper to Buzz Hargrove - it is political suicide to cut back industry). I suggest we all learn to love technology instead. It is the only realistic way to save us.

Oh yes, transfering this technology to developing countries must happen. Just don't waste our time and money on these stupid hot air bribes of cash (which is waht Kyoto was all about).

Over on the Carol Taylor thread, I am being censored for questioning the statement that if we elect Carol James, we would see a more fair distribution of the " GOODIES ", and my aboration of such statements that promote socialism as a way of life.
I wonder if these comments will show up on this thread?

Passaglias left foot
Not in any sense am I suggesting you be banned. I'm suggesting you need to be edited or redacted. If the policy everyone is supposed to respect concerning the nature of the remarks one applies to other is not going to be enforced equitably then I am objecting to that.
Selective editing is inappropriate and to this point it has been far more often used against the 'left' than it has against the ad hominem remarks from people like you on the right.

I don't know why comments are no longer being posted on the Carole Taylor thread, but, if the last comment posted there were mine (it's yours actually) I'd be very embarrassed.

Pasaglias, you realize, of course, that if everyone has to migrate because of global warming, they are mostly coming here. Wouldn't it be easier to just stop what were doing?

Dalton and Buzz don't get it. If the Big Three actually built environmentaly friendly cars, I might actually buy one. But they don't, so I don't. They should see this as an opportunity. Man, they're dumb.

kyoto's a joke. period. chretien the fool signed on without knowing what the hell he was doing, as usual. pure politics from a guy who says his greatest accomplishment was surviving for fourty years. his eleven years as pm were canada's most embarrassing, and pretty much anything this idiot did should be rescinded asap.

PLF, when it comes to technology I think people tend to believe in it the way they used to believe in religion. That if we have faith it'll save us. In the case of global warming, technology is the root of the problem. Sure, there might be a magic solution but I'm not betting on it. Hope? Sure, but I think there's as much chance of God saving us as technology.

50 years from now the population of the planet will be greater than it is right now and even if we reduce the emissions on a per capita basis I bet the overall emissions will be higher than they are now. And there is no place to migrate to.

Ron, you're entitled to believe in whatever you like but you should know that even right-wing opinion leaders like the Economist now accept that human activity is the problem and are calling for action.

As for who's funding the origins of your point of view, all roads lead back to Big Oil and Big Tobacco. They fund pretty much everybody on the other side of the debate.

Did you notice the Afghanistan thread is dead too anyone?

Elliot
I think Chrétien was far more sympathetic than our current PM. Why do you dislike him so much?

I remember when my wife and I first arrived in Ottawa in the 70s we were at a small restaurant just off Sparks St. for lunch. Ottawa wasn't much of a restaurant town in those days and the place was nearly deserted.

Across the isle from where we were sitting and having our lunch was Jean Chrétien, all by himself, struggling to try and order from an English menu. In the next few years we'd run into him and his wife at theatres, shopping and the like. They were never surrounded by a big phalanx of hangers on and seemed to us like pretty normal ordinary folks.

Certainly nothing to hate and nothing like the stuffed shirt that Harper can't seem to help being.

That doesn't mean I'd ever vote for him but, if I wanted to share a beer with a former prime minister, he'd be my guy.

What's the point of anonymous postings online if we can't flame each other and have a good rant occasionally!

You're asking the wrong person.

PLF for P.M. or PREZ !!!

Go Lions Go !!!

sounds great if he was an insurance salesman g. this guy was our PM for 11 years!! and i'll repeat; when asked what his greatest accomplishment was he could only say 'surviving in politics for fourty years'. wonderful.

G West said,

The problem wasn’t the menu, he was reading it upside down

Elliot, that's what politics in this day and age is all about. You tell me how many politicians survived more than 2 years in the mixmaster with their reputations intact. I'd take an insurance agent any time over somebody who's less interested in his own country than he is with kissing the hem of the Americans.

Compared with Harper - who looks more an more like a snakeoil salesman every day - there's no comparison.

Woody - good one! I thought of that and checked - it was right side up. When he first arrived in Ottawa he couldn't speak 'any' English.

Unlike Steven Harper, at least Jean Chretien didn't support an invasion and occupation of Iraq killing thousands of innocent civilians. So who really is the moron?

that decision had nothing to do with intelligence or lack thereof. every decision chretien the clown ever made was based on politics, pure and simple. hence his remark about 'surviving'.

by the way, il ne peut pas parler francais non plus!

The decision to invade Iraq had everything to do with intelligence or lack thereof. Do the Iraqi's have nuclear weapons? Do they have biological or chemical weapons? Does Iraq have ties with al-Qaeda?
Any countries that joined the coalition of the willing did so to improve their economic ties with America, not because they felt the attack was justified.

moose; i agree with all you say, but i seriously doubt if jean chretien made his decision based on the above.

Gotta stop talking about the neo-Nazi's Green plan it has been renamed an approach .
How 'bout that ?
Cause there is no plan at least a lucid well thought out one just more BS from the kings of BS your local Nazi's .

"Our approach will deliver clean air to Canadians to protect their health while also making genuine progress on reducing greenhouse gas emissions as well as other contaminants that are harmful to our health," Ambrose said.

Unh,huh. Yea,sure thing Bunny .

Sheesh! are the neo-cons ever confused .
On the one hand they all deny global warming and on the other they cheer on Harpo and 'Bunny'Ambrose as the saviours of the enviornment and will save Canada from the dastardly Kyoto Protocol's .
Very confusing .
Well which is it twits ?

And more from the cracker factory .

Surprise! There is no plan or approach just a lot of hot air(gas) emenating from the usual anal orifices known as neo-cons.

So if Ambrose says smog is a bigger problem than global warming and the chief science advisor of Britain says global warming is a bigger threat than terrorism does this mean Canada will spend more on fighting smog than we spend on Afghanistan?

That is too funny Frank .Good one .

hey, so the long-promised "Made-In-Canada environmental plan" turned out to be a lot of Conservative hot air.

Turns out the Cons have decided that instead of a plan they'll have an "approach".

Fortunately for my kids this Thanksgiving I have an actual "plan" for dinner instead of simply an "approach" which sounds like a recipe for last-minute McChicken sandwiches at McDonalds instead of actual turkey and dressing.

And since their "approach" is let's make Ontario's auto sector pay while we expand Alberta's tar-sand development I doubt that election will go in their favour unless they think they will be the first government in Cdn history not to win a seat in Ontario and Quebec.

But this sort of thing is expected from a party where the new senior assistant to the minister of earth, wind and fire (or whatever they call it now) doesn't think global warming is man-made.

Conservatives continue to be more entertaining than a Battlestar Galactica marathon.

Speaking of 'approaches', Frank, what the heck is going on right here at Tyee? Is Beers short of funds or something: Two threads right at the head of the line (one on Carole Taylor and the other on Afghanistan) both stalled two days ago and now the Afghan one is closed.

Is this just a sign of poor web maintenance practices or is something more sinister going on?

Or is it a sign that some of Tyee's 'behind the scenes' supporters don't want to read certain kinds of 'criticism' on this site.

Anyone?

It seems tis OK to be alarmist about the 'war on terror'!

An approach!

Is there a plan for the war on terror or just an approach.

A joke on future generations and spaceship earth!

Alcibiades did you not read the notice, I would guess there may be few glitches in their system , try not to get your nikkers in a knot over it,

Yep, all the messages disappeared and then they came back but you couldn't post. Looked like just a glitch to me. Besides, anyone reading these arguments is not going to find them a hotbed of sedition, more like a hotbed of ignorance. In fact I imagine the only reason to continue having comment threads is that they bring lots of hits to the site because the comments are usually entertaining.

Alcibiades did you not read the notice, I would guess there may be few glitches in their system , try not to get your nikkers in a knot over it,

Alci:
They switched out servers and some data beacme corrupted .
Nothing more sinister than that I think .
Happy Thanksgiving .

I see herr Harpo got a Woody award (Woodrow Wilson award for public distinction)
More interference from the US into Canadian politics .
What a joke !

hannibal
You may be right, one hopes so. But why not post a note to that effect rather than leave the threads hanging and ridiculous? On only one was there a note this am to say comments had closed...haven't checked since. After the last incident with Shannon Rupp I tend to be a little suspicious.

If fact, I've always found the 'closing' strategy - if you could call it that - pretty strange and arbitrary anyway. Some threads still accept posts months after they've gone off the website and into archive - others end before they've worked their way off the main list.

Happy Thanksgiving to you too dude.