Again, rafe has hit the bail on the head. Our so-called democracy is a myth and we live in a benign dictatorship.

Today in BC, we have a sociopath as premier, abetted by some of the most corrupted media in Canadian history, a brother on Brand-X, who continually spouts his own brand of nonsense, and a very compliant caucus, filled with right-wing political hacks. The opposition is little better, a leader who has not a clue what she is doing, backed up by a caucus that is still in shell shock from a previous election.

No wonder people overseas laugh at us.

It will not change unless there is a revolution and i do not think the people here have the stomach for that. So it's tweedle dee - tweedle dum for ever.

Hardly a "benign dictatorship" Grump - Cancerous perhaps

People overseas laugh at us?

Examples please.

The biggest problem is that people love dictatorships, as they free them from thinking and decision making, until they become so oppressive that they force revolutions.

Then, the next problem is that revolutions usually put even more corrupt dictatorships into power. Tons of historical examples for both.

Unfortunately, our whole educational and economic systems are built on brainwash, submission to and the legalization of power elites.

I have lived under every known political ideology in 4 countries and find the lies
always the cookie cutter same, no matter what they preach.

All ideologies preach and promise "freedom" and they all deliver various forms of slavery under self appointed ruling classes. The best example is how our "free enterprise market economy" is turning into the same forced collectivization, as was used by the Soviets.

Just watch, how our agriculture and manufacturing is becoming collectivized to force out the true private enterprisers and replace them with huge corporate monsters, forcing people into the cities where they're have to accept any and everything thrown at them, living from day to day at the mercy of "wealth creating investors".

The Soviets did it with bayonets, the capitalists with the perceived power of imaginary capital, created by the banks from the air and accepted by people as the real thing.

This alone is mind boggling, how people can accept this fraud and submit to its power.

This ain't no democracy by any stretch of imagination, yet no politician, or Party dares to make any noise protesting against it, or call people's attention to the fact that they're getting the royal screw from kings who wear no clothes to free them for action

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Well written and well reasoned, Rafe. While I may not agree with your conclusion, what is important is that this very critical topic is being discussed with an open mind. Good on you!!

Rafe said it politely, Fiat lux fires with at least one barrel.

Many will say, "If it aint broke don't fix it."

I say, "Its broke."

Alcibiades e.g. Every time the Premier goes to Hawaii he laughs at us.

I'm neither overseas nor do I laugh at our current polity which is far from the idea of democracy as I understand it - rule of the people, the "demos". It's our fault too; the "will of the people" dumfoundingly passive about the commonwealth yet alert to the needs of our own navel. A change in the electoral system is a good beginning. You
may disagree with STV and favour some other form of PR but when 97% of the Citizens Assembly choose it over everything else after a year of discussion among ordinary citizens - and then a government with 46% of the vote decides that change can only take place if 60% favour it there is something seriously rotten. And that's for starters! I worked the streets around Vancouver during April and May 2005 trying to get some kind of discussion on STV and huge numbers of people didn't even have an opinion. My point is NOT whether STV is the best or worse option. It's getting people to even consider personal engagement in the body politic rather than leaving it to professional politicians far more interested in their own kind than the rest of us. Another consideration is this. If the poor would get out and vote we would see a different Canada. Instead I see many who are more engaged with the products of the Entertainment Industrial Complex rather than discussing how political decisions in the nation, province and municipality really affect our lives. How sad.

Blame it on the "ignorant apathetic masses"? I don't mind if Government takes charge, so long as they keep the masses informed, and there is a brain in its head.
Contrary to what you seem to think, the poor do get out and vote.

(Especially now that we are all mostly poor)

bpither1:
Rigth on!
proportional representation would make things a bit more even, but the main problem is that the masses are so busy studying their navels that they do not bother to vote!
Every election we hear the same crap: why bother,they are all the same! and then the whining begins all over again!
You cannot help people who refuse to help themselves, the lemmings will keep jumping off the cliff.

Who laugh at us? Europeans laugh at us for our lack of creativity and social conscience. The Germans laugh at us because our premier hates BC so much, he is having ferrys built in highly subsidised shipyards.

The Asians laugh at us because we do not practice what we preach.

The Americans have a big hee haw because our politicians are such ass kissers.

Canada is not seen globally, except a haven to wait out political storms in other countries.

As a country, we are a failure and as Rafe has prophetised so much, will splinter apart. Sooner rather than later.

Perhaps the "Lemmings" are happy studying and don't want your help. Why do we always hear the same old crap about lemmings jumping off the cliff?

Rafe's arguments are, though certainly true in many regards, largely merely cute verging on the cuddly, is my reaction to them.

On the other hand, Fait Lux again cuts more to the chase of the matter.

The current state of "democracy" within status quo society is beyond the capacity of legalistic and bureaucratic "tweaking" to fundamentally improve it, certainly to the degree that we can see society and the role of the individual citizen transformed in any significant and/or meaningful way. (For I care not a twig really about backbencher and other such simplistic and inadequte solution attempts.) And Mair's arguments are, fundamentally, whether he is aware of it or not, but another attempt to perform yet another bureaucratic sleight of hand that will convince us all, one more time, that all that's really required is this little bit of legalistic and "rules" voo doo and everything will be back on track-, and we can comfortably ride off into the future with the prevailing ruling class economic and political status quo left largely untouched.

I, on the other hand, share Fait's view that capitalism, in both its model forms, be it "state" or "corporate", Communist or so-called Free Enterprise, actually Corporate Enterprise, and the manner in which both money wealth and ruling class systems dominate,restrict and manipulate the emergence of any real democracy or change in ordinary people's lives-, which does not primarily serve the privilege of both capitalist model Elites first and foremost, and which is what really restricts and distorts the further development of "significant democracy".

Now Rafe does seem to know, or at least crudely sense that there is indeed a problem with democracy. I'll give him that. But he draws back for want of that little bit of real huzpah that's needed to come to grips with the real nature of the problem, in my view. And that could be related to his own more or less comfortable position within the status quo state of affairs, and a life long love affair with it over much of his personal political history. I'm really uncertain here.

For it is, in fact, bureaucratic ruling class control, through money manipulation of both "formal" political democracy and especially the economy that is at the beating heart of the problem with atatus quo democracy, not the mere tweaking of bullshite rule change. (And it is Grumpy who has actually dared to draw closer to a more real view, in my opinion, even if he topped out just a tad. :-)

continued next post...

From previous post...

The problem with democracy, in my view, actually starts off rooted in this elite ruling class system of control over the economy, whether one calls it Capitalism or Communism, and the absence of any real system/model/or form of democracy there, which puts obscene levels of money wealth and power into the hands of a relative few of the owning class. From there, this ruling class position of privilege is transformed and flows naturally and organically, if not always immediately obvious to the casual observer, into new forms of power, through control of the ensuing and evolving socio-economic system's purse strings, again into that of control of the information system, and the capacity directly and through the ability to "monery manipulate" , to exercise effective control over the very formal political institutions and processes themselves.

So, while it is fine to talk about tweaking legalistic rule and vureaucratic system changes, and they may indeed improve the "appearance" of things, and public "perceptions" of democracy for awhile, there is not a wide spread "popularizing" of real democracy and power in society and the economy until there is a deep, transformative change that occurs down into the very class roots of the economic and political system and its day to day processes. And that, as Fait Lux again correctly notes, in my view, awaits yet a transformation in the level of understanding across the broadest social and class spectrums of society, especially its majority working class at the very base of it all.

Until then al. we get is, this kind of smoke and mirrors, denial and more self-delusion.

It's the participation levels in elections which actually tell the more real story, I think. It's probably more those who never vote in fact, who don't participate in the "formal" democratic processes, who actually have the more real understanding of the sham that lies at the heart of our so-called "democracy".

It strikes me that Canadians are, by and large, fairly complacent about our system of government. Most, I suppose, view it as a benign entity (Federal, Provincial, Municipal and that oddity Regional.) Government hardly ever abuses its vast powers, aside from the odd fiscal scandal and sub-contracting out torture and confinement toless squeamish governments. We hardly ever shoot our own citizens and rarely kill children in foreign engagements.

We've got it pretty good.

Still, Rafe is clearly suggesting, malcontent that he is, that we can improve on how we are governed. Such radical notions as proportional representation (that suggests that a wider perspective be reflected in how we compose our leadership)are acceptable to him.

I guess I agree. Politics in Canada sometimes seems like an NHL game between two lesser Stanley Cup contenders. There is some brutaklity, stupidity, arrogance and puffy gutteral gesturing.

That can get a bit tiresome.

Way to go Rafe.

Hey I object about the statement implying our media doesn't hold the benign* dictorship of gordo and his right-wing hacks to account!
I mean, did you not see the scathing editorial in Friday's province alternately apologizing and defending the already 2 billion deficit for the richlmpics?
Imagine the syrupy treatment the NDP would have received had they went 2 billion overbudget on a white-elephant, megaproject with little public utility!!
*-applies only if you are:
wealthy
unscrupulous
member of the corporate elite
made campaign contribution(s)
involved in resource extraction corp.
foreign shareholder in above
relative, friend or partner in crime
a carpetbagger

-does not apply if you are:
a)poor and sick
b)poor and old
c)poor and young
a and b
a and c
a plant
an animal
a river or stream
a unionized worker
a person with a disability
a decent human being

I've chimed in once or twice (not a Tyee groupie as I note of some!) and usually to knock Rafe but i have to give him credit on this article. Although he only offers criticism and no solutions his analysis is bang-on!

Cheers to this!

Grumpy,
Don't know if you've noticed but the Swedes voted out the social democrats yesterday. Which side of the mouth do you think they're laughing out of today?

Ignorance has no boundaries.

There's more than a few Natives from reserves that might dispute this claim, of course. They get shot and short shrift rather regularly in demonstrations etc.

As far as "...killing children in foreign engagements", we just don't show them on the nightly news, or pass them off as "collateral damage" US style, as we US style everthing, or we simple pass them off in a catch phrase as "some unavoidable civilian casualties", with no photo attached.

We see our "glorious boys" of course, and mud hut buildings going up in clouds of dust from a distance, or disintegrating positions under a hail of heavy machine guns fire, likewise from a distance as well of course. The assumption is, likewise of course, that real people aren't huddling terrified in corners there and likewise being disintegrated-, it's only the Evil Taliban who are dying, right?

Canadians, like Amerkans, see what they want to see, and that certainly doesn't include their own evil. We're too "nice" for that.

Bullpoop.

And I can recall immediately at least two incidents of vigilante police "death squads" on the prairies, in the dead cold of winter, dropping off Natives far from shelter, and leaving them to freeze to death. I'm sure Natives have many more greater and lesser horror stories of Canadian democracy to tell. Worker's on strike, ditto. (On To Ottawa Trek.)

Ad Nauseum.

Thanks for the differing views of a few things, Rafe and Will. And the comments from the other scribes on this article. As long as we have a system that allows a premier to set times for the house to sit, so everyone can be prepared.That includes staff, media and us who actually read Hansard.Then Gordon decides , hell he and his followers,see a lot of stuff that can embarrass him is about to show up in the House, well shut it down. Little things like using our MRI and CAT scans to do private work in our hospitals. LOts of money changed hands on that deal for sure. A little thing like the Basi trials. a bit of a cock- up with Olympic costs. Heck I could go on but why bother. He has the clout and we gave it to him

That power of appointment vested in the leader is a killer of democracy. Still worse, it extends outside of the legislatures, parliament and the senate, to naming cronies and hacks to the numerous committees, boards and the judiciary, all tenured and very high-reward occupations to be filled.

Mair is dead on right. It's straight out of Canadian Politics and Canadian Government 101 - first year college/university stuff.

That's exactly how the PMO evolved into the despicable instrument it did under Trudeau, Mulroney and Cretien.

Sorry Coyote, I believe I was overusing the concept of irony. My error

bpther1

yes, sad

And my apology that I was not quick or astute enough to pick up on it. :-)

And likewise, my apology for not running spellcheck on that lengthy piece I posted. I'll give myself a good talking to.

Grumpy:

YES! YES! Sooner rather than later.

The influence of Ottawa on the western body politic since 1950 has been a disaster. It is time to cut the purse strings from the Zoo on the Rideau. The stupid railway that was used as an excuse to connect the continent is not serving its purpose any more and cannot be used to barter the connection any more.

By leaving sooner, we save the ongoing cost of the connection to Ottawa, the penetration of Toronto based politicians whom have no care of what really happens west of the Rockies, so long as they can furhter feather thier nests with more eagle feathers plucked from BC birds.

Once, when politicians and so called "economists" come to grip with the fact that "wealth can not be created, only taken" and accept that this is what has been and is causing all wars, crimes and get rid of the warped ideologies promoting the "taking", perhaps the world will see the day when democracy may just become a reality.

Ed Deak.

Someone here said we have it too good!
Maybe that is about as close as you can get to the reason why nobody gives a fuk!
It seems the same goes in Sweden as they turfed a good government!
Revolutions do not happen as long as people only worry about where the remote control is of if they got the right flavour of icecream!
That we slowly but surely loose all our rights does not penetrate the average couchpotatoe.
So, it may be an old saw, but we simply follow the crowd, unthinking, yes, like those lemmings jumping to their death!

so.... all things said...more or less.

How does one go about starting a revolution...especially if you can't get the couch potatoes off their couches?!?

The loss of rights does, I think, penetrate however, the reason I can see we are such an apathetic bunch, is the root of the issue, which is we feel powerless. That must be dealt with. Give power back to the people, make them feel like they might make a difference and...wala!!

Once again, the question is how to do that...if grassroots has the popular vote then things need to change so they have seat and a voice in provincial and federal parliments. This would be our revolution. But as long as we are voting along party lines I cannot see this happening.

Powerless is when you don't know and can't find out. Powerless is when civic crime continues without redress. Powerless is us not knowing whether Basi, Virk & Basi (or their lawyers) did appear in B.C. Supreme Court today; and if so, what they decided to do next about evidence and trial dates. You remember: BC Rail.

Anybody with the news, please comment at The Legislature Raids. Please.

It's my firm belief that, unless we follow through on this affair, there's not even an imitation democracy in B.C.

The more real problem is, I think, here and in Sweden, that we have finally come to the limits of formal, what has been called Social Democracy. It, formal Social Democracy, has not for a great time now, exhibited any further capacity to transform capitalism, but like Carol James for example, become more a part of the problem than its solution. And regrettably, the so-called labour movement that much defaced itself and its own usefulness by serving this so-called NDP style "Social Democracy", has finally arrived at its crisis place as well.

That is the real lesson being played out here in these days in this country since Operation Solidarity in 1983 here in BC, and likewise now bearing its consequence in Sweden as well. We are in a time and a place which calls for a more truly radicalized, revolutionary, as in transformative potential solution. And that is not necessarily the advocacy of an armed solution to the current problem of capitalism and its so-called democracy, but rather more "revolutionary" as simply a statement of the need to transform fundamentally the class nature of the economy, the political institutions and socio-cultural realities-, however it is found that needs to be brought about. (And violence, which is not the same thing as aggressive and/or demonstrative social movements, is never the preferred option, so long as there are others. Which I think there certainly are.)

For such a fundamental transformation of our society, its economic and institutional basis however, there first needs to occur a fundamental change in the thinking and understanding of the mass of the population, especially its working class and with its allied intelligentsia, in how they see the source of the problems of current society and what is needed to occur to change that. Which means there is a need in even these preliminary days and stages to first, see beyond the limitations of such a political perspective as the NDP, itself a fundamentally, ideologically Social Democratic limited perspective of the prospects for change-, having confined itself as it does to the view from within the box of capitalism itself. It has become one of the "co-opted" movements within capitalism, like the trade union movement, by and large.

Here and in Sweden, the indications are that the break with these limits of the Social Democratic (NDP) view of society and the world is already well underway. (The Greens themselves were, back at the time of their founding, though they too have largely become "co-opted" as well, an early if inadequate manifestation of this need.)

We shall have to see, of course, for it is not likely to be a simple or one-off process, but more protracted and problematic. Social Democratic, NDP style illusions have been rooted within the progressive class strata of capitalism such as its working class, for a very long time. Though a sudden break is some possible as well. Again, we shall have to see.

But what is clear, to me in any case, is that a popular break with the limitations of Social Democratic thinking has to occur, as a precondition to the development of any popular new level of understanding and action, with the potential to transform society, from the bottom up.

It would seem that we are to be merged into the North American Union next year instead of 2010, so does any of the above discussion really matter?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=NOR20060916&articleId=3243
Stephen Harper's "Quisling" government pursues further talks for U.S. take-over of Canada

Everybody makes such good points.

The Elites have gone crazy, and consolidated their power in corporations that now make war, and can call in national armies to back them up in their takeovers.

Governments have become wholly owned subsidiaries of psychotic ideologies, both religious and economic.

The banks have turned into inflation creation machines.

Revolutions don't work, being seen as an opportunity by every psychopath with a connection for military arms.

So, what to do? From the ground up, Coyote. How about establishing permanent polling stations in schools, calling random citizens to man them as a public duty, all the same as juries.

Then if a riding fails to elect with a clear majority, the seat can be rerun the next week. An election every Sunday until a real majority is called, in each seat.

Majority governments would be rarer, as I believe we all agree would be safer for the country and it's people, but who cares? If they fall, or fail to govern, the people can call another election any Sunday.

More democracy. Real democracy. Bottom up. What's wrong with it?

I suppose I should say, before a big STV discussion starts up, that I think the STV failed for two reasons:

1. The powers that be didn't want it, and put the kibosh on it by setting impossible standards for it. The majority it got was an expression, I believe, more of the popular perception of the present system as corrupted and co-opted than a passionate desire for it.

2. It was too complicated to explain. It sounded like the sort of flim-flam you always start hearing when some slick operator wants something from you, but doesn't want you to know what until he's already taken it away from you.

Bailey,

I'm not exactly sure what you are saying in the above piece, but to comment on what I do get...

The reality is, even though they don't in the final outcome always produce the idealized result of wishful thinking in the early stages and the run up, revolutionary transformations do in fact work and are a frequent instrument of history and the masses-, at least in many important regards. Assuming we not allow every revolution calling itself one, to be declared so, short of actually fundamentally transformative criteria. One can after all "declare" anything, which does not make it necessarily so. (I can declare myself a woman, even have surgery to create the illusion, but I am still fundamentally beneath it all, a man.) Witness the so-called Communist Revolutions which have in fact resulted in capitalism. Though of course those revolutions in many places including Russia, actually did transform feudalism into "modern" capitalism, even if not the co-operative communism of the declared aims. (Ditto China and Vietnam etc. Even Cuba, I would say. Though in the latter there is a Cuban "difference".)

The English Civil War, though it followed a twisted course, and produced a compromise in the end with the old feudal aristocracy and a "token" monarchy head, resulted nonetheless in the like transformation of English feudalism and the landed aristocratic system into Industrial Revolution capitalism there. Which over the ensuing century and more likewise transformed all the European feudal states and duchies into the "relatively" more democratic and modern, for the time, final capitalist result.

And I could go on, of course, but I think my point should be made.

What did not happen though is that bottom up revolution of which I think we can now speak. For basically what occurred out of these "revolutions" is that one elite class merely substituted itself, through force of arms often, for another elite class that had to there been the ruling class. Along with primary ownership of the economy as the underpinning prerequisite, of course.

Even the still much praised and genuflected to Amerikan Revolution, which produced the modern capitalism rock bed notion of "democracy" so praised by all adherents to the status quo system, while it was really more a war of national liberation against English Imperialism, did result in the firm and independent establishment of a then still modern capitalism in the USA.

So, the reality is "revolutions", contingent on and limited by the level of understanding of the populace prevailing at the time, and its revolutionaries as well, does produce significant results. (Failures as well, but also results, in very particular and important contexts.)

continued next post...

From previous post...

And as I keep saying, the word "revolution" in and of itself does not of necessity have an unbreakable linkage with armed violence, though to here it often has in fact, for sure. But more particularly revolution, as it does in a scientific context, speaks to the "quality" or "degree" of the change in the character of a society or societies.

And for all the similarities of our views in many regards Bailey, and my great respect for yourself and your intellectual reach, on this issue it appears, we will have to differ.

The degree of the transformation required within current society, to truly democratize it in an entirely new way, to include all levels of the economy as well as political power, in my view, requires a "revolutionary transformation", preceded by and as part of a change in the character and content of mass society thinking and preparedness to act. The one without the other, in my view, will merely result in a new bureaucracy that would form the foundation of but a new elite-, on that we agree.

But again, that need not necessarily be the result, depending upon what occurs amongst the ordinary citizenry and its revolutionaries. And I advocate for both aspects of that "transformation".

Though I can scarcely say that, based upon the evidence to here, that your cynicism is entirely unjustified. :-) On that we will also agree. Change, especially transformative change, always carries a significant element of risk-, even as it did at the time of the current ruling class revolutions.

But even the maintenance of the status quo is fraught with economic, political, and natural world risk. It is no less, nay even more untenable.

Fiat believes wealth or energy, or happiness is limited, and when we try to cash in, it's at the expense of something else. He seems to believe wealth is like an apple pie, with only so many slices available. What happens when the pie is gone? What will we do?
How about bake another one?
Yes we will use flour, butter and apples, but isn't that what we are supposed to be doing? Creating wealth from the resources we have? Not always wealth for ourselves, but wealth for all.
I am not as pessimistic as some of you. I feel we can hardly complain about what we have. But for the lazy, it's more convenient to criticize Daddy, than that evil ogar next door.

Coyote wrote:

what alliance?

You are closer to the reality with:

and it is a transformative change that has been clearly elucidated in The Sovereign Individual. Then repeated in The World is Flat.

Your intelligencia are busy elsewhere in cyberspace...

http://www.amazon.com/SOVEREIGN-INDIVIDUAL-MASTERING-TRANSITION-INFORMATION/dp/0684832720
http://www.buildfreedom.com/sovmain.htm
http://www.bidstrup.com/sovereign.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_is_Flat
http://www.amazon.com/World-Is-Flat-History-Twenty-first/dp/0374292884

IAMC, still creating battles:

Why not create an overall working solution with the 'ogar' rather than praise 'Daddy' for beating on him with a stick?

Ron/IAMC what, pray tell, is an ogar?

There is little anyone can do to stir up those couchpotatoes!
The powers that be, hand out just enough goodies that the smucks always have a new toy to play with!
Revolution start when you see your children starve! Not because you in effect have less left over now, than in the past!
Commercialism has made us think that we "need' all these goodies and so we keep on toiling and getting more into debt!
There was a time, when I could buy a house on a single salary, raise 3 kids and still pay off that house in 7 years!
Today, I might not be able to afford a downpayment!
So, we are not getting ahead in any way shape or form.
But, it is insidious and we fail to reflect on how badly we are being screwed.
Sorry not to have any proposals about how to change things, we are all being manipulated here!
Social democracy is as good as it gets, and it is too bad that those who need it the most are preoccupied with their gadgets.
Indeed many have it too good still, and will not wake up untill it is too late!
Keep Harpo and Gordo in power and we will be the poor satellite to the USA.
The country that delivers raw materials and has no industry of its own anymore.

In 1957 my high school social studies teacher predicted that we woudld as a nation ultimately become hewers of wood and haulers of water for the Americans. Harpo - Gordo et al have made him a prophet.
However, he did not forsee our "brave" soldiers becoming cannon foddder in a proxy war.

Murdock wrote:

Actually Murdock, I am glad to see you "on board" in this one. However, decentralization scares me. After all, how much different are we in the west from someone in Toronto? Not really that much. We shop and buy gas at the same stores, and watch CBC hockey night in Canada. We also subscribe to the same newspapers, and smugly look at American foreign policy.

We have a great country....and a really good Charter, but the "notwithstanding clause" can be misused.

The divide and conquer approach is dangerous. I personally feel more connected to someone from Toronto, or PEI than I do to someone from Seattle.

We have to fix our "democracy", but not at the expense of breaking up the country.

murdock has been selling this snake oil for months, years perhaps. Wait till he tells you how ‘The Sovereign Individual’ circulates in samizdat through the underground channels of libertarians and will be seized if apprehended at border crossings. His affection for the tortured ‘literary’ output of William Rees-Moog (a hoary old ‘fella from the Times of London) and James Davidson knows few bounds. I suspect he’s bought up all the remaindered copies from book bins across America and flogging them privately .

Replacing Canada's admittedly imperfect system with murdock's variety of selfish individualistic nonsense would be, as Moat notes and as Frank has often posted, far worse than what we have now. But, if you have that secret decoder ring. I’m sure he’ll soon be telling us again of his many ‘conversations’ with Rafe when Rafe was still on the radio.

Boring!

"we must address, and soon, how we can avoid consistently giving a party with 40 per cent or less of the popular vote 100 per cent of the power" says Rafe Muir.

Example number umpteenth: last night in New Brunswick the Liberals "won" an absolute majority while coming second: 47.2% of the vote beats 47.5%, in New Brunswick. Bernard Lord, who sat on his Commission's Report for more than 17 months before announcing he favoured its recommendation for a Mixed Member Proportional system, has only his own hesitation to blame.

Transformation is an operation of ritual. Historically, the most common example is probably the Transubstantiation in the Catholic Mass, which turns bread and wine into sacred materials that people can incorporate into their own beings.. Currently that's eclipsed by advertizing, which makes millions of people act against their own best interest by incorporating false assumptions into their own consciousness.

Both are effective as the end product of well crafted ritual. Bringing the faithful through a series of steps each of which requires the acceptance of a statement which need not be true, only consistant with the one before and the goal, which is a state of communion.

If you want to transform a democratic society, you will have to, as Coyote says, work from the bottom up. You will have to offer real democratic ceremonies that can be demonstrated to work, then, when they have faith, bring them into the fold.

Democracy has been trodden underfoot by advertisers, spindoctors, lying politicians and competing bad guys.

To bring it back we have to restore faith.

If you want to restore faith in Democracy, create a system of voting that gives actual power to the people, and can easily be seen to be fair.

That's what we lack now. That's why only ideolgues and special interests still vote. Everybody else has given up in the face of obvious falsehood.

How do we send a message to Gordo? Well, we could all sign up with and support REFEDERATION.

The present system, and the political parties vying for trough space, don't want anything to change. They aren't our friends. Don't give them what they want, give them what they DON'T want..change.

Right now we have the LiEbrals doing a shitty job. We have them because we got sick and tired of the NDP doing a shitty job. We didn't pick the Greens because they were obviously doing a shitty job.

Doesn't matter which of them get elected next time round, they'll do a shitty job.

So I'm going to support REFEDERATION... at least if it turns out they, too, do a shitty job it will at least be OUR shitty job, not a shitty job dictated to a dupe by the Amerikkkan empire.

The take-over is almost complete. Harpoon will turn the Canadian military over to the Amerikkkans very soon, and by the time the big 2010 fun fest is upon us we will be part of Amerikkka in all meaningful ways. They'll probably allow us to continue to fly the maple syrup label, and I'm sure they won't allow us to vote in their elections but before much longer we'll all be standing singing Jose can you see?

You are closer to the reality with:

Oh, I have no doubt where much of the intelligentsia is, Murdock? They are as disengaged as "the mass" right now, or likewise preoccupied with minutia, by and large. It is part of the manifestation of the defeatism of the time. (For the fear is that, in fact, Social Democracy is as good as it gets. Which means endless ruling class rule as the country slides south into the waiting arms of the US Empire.) And which conditions needs to change and, in my view, is on the cusp of doing so.

We shall have to see, as I keep saying.

And I understand the NDP panic here that progressive political development and interest is finally moving away from them. They are now perhaps finally sensing that they have been too timid at mass movement building, taking "the system" on, and have indeed themselves been co-opted along with the trade union movement and become a part of the capitalist system-, and finally that they have arrived at that political place where they may have to pay for that with their head, so to speak. :-)

How could they not?

All that said, and while being convinced myself that Social Democracy as a "co-opted ideology" has finally come to the limits of its usefullness as a transforming tool of society, I nonetheless do agree with Bailey immediately above me here. There are additional reform voting and other more challenging measures to capitalism, such as deeper working class and community participation and power rights within the economy, that do need to be pushed for here, parallel with efforts to educate and set larger and larger movements of ordinary folks in motion around them, to challenge the status quo and ruling class power. And if Social Democracy/the NDP and the labour movement still have the power within them, and the willingness, to take this on, which I have seen and still see no evidence of, I would certainly join with them and encourage them in that. (Though I have been around a long time, and observed the NDP for as near a long time, and will not be easily convinced by mere words.)

And the reality is, face it, that the NDP is about as likely, nay more, to disintegrate into the Liberal Party, itself moving right, closer to the Neocons. So, even if I am prepared to be kissy-face with what is left, and I am, the NDP, as an ideologically Social Democratic centred movement, has likely still spent all its political credibility capital. Some things, even for you folks around the NDP, do need to be frankly faced up to. (Though Layton's new and suddenly braver positions around Afghanistan and Canada as a three nation country, though he still speaks only of two, is a brave but probably too little too late attempt to turn NDP fortunes around.)

Continued next post...

From previous post...

My apologies for the length of these pieces. It is that kind of a subject.

Nonetheless, parallel with that, other options need to begin to be prepared to challenge the Neoconservative grip on and betrayal of the country to the US Empire. And posthaste as Nana has correctly pointed out above. The country is already just about lost and a moot point, while the entire political machinery of the capitalist state dithers on ad infinitum.

You are absolutedly right, Nana. Again. :-)

Which demonstrates to me Bailey, that you are still incredibly astute. amd I doubt your sincerity not a smidgen. :-)

You are still, in my view, one of the most outstanding "intelligentsia" thinkers here. (Murdock, on the other hand, is but merely an even more integral part of the capitalist view of the world than Social Democracy. He would actually destroy the country, break it up, render it digestible in small pieces to the US Empire, rather than abandon capitalism. He is irrelevent here, except for purposes of exposing the destructive character of his view of the country.)

Though this quote of yours above Baily, on many levels, in my view, is actually a positive development destined to force change within the system. It is helping to create the crisis within society, such as is often needed as a precondition, how e'er regrettably, in order to create the social and political forces leading to a solution. What is, such as capitalism and the timid Social Democratic response, must now themselves be discredited, along with the inadequacy of what passes for status quo democracy. It is part of the gathering storm pressure that is building and going to be needed to create those movements of people who can and will actually change things.

Is it too late to change? Have our American 'puppet' rulers and American 'puppet' press already achieved the perfect coup?

The government and bureaucratic machine already seem to have full control of things and the general public are mere window dressing, only to be trotted out every 3 to 5 years to maintain the illusion of democracy?

Canada under Harper is more like norway under Quissling in the 40's. Harper's apron strings reach all the way to Washington.

Afghanistan is American made disaster, because they pulled troops out just before the capture of Bin Laddin, and sent them to Iraq for their illegal was their. (Illegal yes, the Brits are just discouvering this and why they want to rid themelves of Blair) Our troops are losing and dying for a war that is in American interests!

Where does the Canadian citizen have a say in all this, nowhere, nada, nope, as Harper and his gang roll on pretending they are good Canadians, sending our soldiers off to die in some desolate foriegn land, fighting for Uncle Sam!

The sad fact is Canada is lost and only the wealthy elites will come out smelling like roses. The real sad thing is that the public at large do not give a damn and continue to let the rot spread.

EVIL DAYS ARE UPON US!

Having spent most of my adult life in one way or other invovled in politcs I must confess that I still have no idea which direction our system should take. We speak of different kinds of electoral systems and yes we spin our wheels and stay in the same place for the most part. We should be able to look to so called leaders for direction but instead we find self serving narrow thought patterns which seem to be designed to merely preserve the status quo. One of my favorite British Import shows Yes Prime Minister in many ways shows us a reality. I recall when the Harcourt Government was first elected speaking with an old friend who was a senior beurocrat making a joke that the direction of government was in some ways already set by the mandarins. And in some ways sadly he was correct. Later I recall questioning an MLA and Cabinet Minster on whose constituency association exectutive I sat on as to why certain issues were not being dealt with as they had been large priorities when he sat in oppostion. His response was telling. That was when we were in oppositon and now we are in government. I was shocked to say the least. I truly do not know how we create a system that is democratic, nor do I claim to have the answers. But I do know we need open dialogue on how to better what we have. And we need a citizenry who instead of being Ostrich's and hiding in the sand choose be become invovled and work in a proactive way to force change. Perhaps this is the revolution that keeps being mentioned. If we all worked to change things change would indeed be inevitable. Apathy and Ignorance has become something our current leaders have come to rely on for their self preservation. Without action we are doomed to having the Gordo's Carol James's and King Ralphs of the world in charge for ever. One thing I have sadly noticed over the last few years is the Intelect of leaders has taken a sharp fall. Gone are the people with vision and intelect and they have been replaced by short sighted low level neandrothals.
Beam me up Scotty there seems to be no Intelegent life down here

nothing much gets done in the legislature anyway, unless there are some significant bills to pass, which there obviously are not at this time. mcmartin knows that too. why have a session simply for the sake of having a session?

And as we rant, Gordon Campbell has eluded all those nasty questions from the Opposition about the Auditor General's report on the Olympics. Like a German politician once said "How fortunate it is for politicians that most people are stupid". I would add complacent to that.

Oh, Elliot, you coy one, you.

Although, you're partly right..BC is largely now being determined by forces outside of the legislature (I'd say completely determined but, you know, ever the optimist) that have no use for government or the idea of governance..it's now all about what's happening without the knowledge of the legislature (which gee... only represents the people of this province) that is now determining policy.

You know, BC Rail sale, Terasen's sale to Kinder Morgan, Accenture, BC Hydro, "our" BC ferries haha!, the invisible Basi-Virk trial..it's all "happening" where it can remain hidden. Where more importantly, the information can remain hidden from little ol' us. Without information, we got nothing...which is the point, of course that THEY have known all along..so that's why now THEY got everything.

So maybe, just maybe, in our Legislature we may want a few important questions answered.... about the Basi and Virk trial and the raids on our legislature, about MRI's and the Canada Health act, about Kinder Morgan's big profits, about tragedies occurring in our health system, about a ferry sinking,, about a railway that consistently goes off the tracks, about pipelines, and so-called environmental public power projects, about the attempts to co-opt First Nations into the corporate sleaze of this province, about the growing number of homeless on our streets...and oh yeah, that "2010 Spirit Albatross"....that ever more weighty Olympic debt...darkly hovering over us all...

But you're right, elliot, no one in the legislature seems to give enough of a damn to make enough of a fuss in order that the interests of the people be served, and yeah...we know the legislature has never been about actually answering questions ... but now it seems it's not even about asking questions either...

questions, by the way, that might expose the need for further information to be provided ....and further questions to be asked...questions are often just as important as answers, counter intuitve as that may seem.

P.S. Is it Christmas in Maui once again this year for you and your politicos, Elliot?

Damn, that was good, lynn!

And Rafe, too. But I thought everybody already knew that our legislatures aren't what they're cracked up to be.

P.S. Trueman, ain't me.

Exactly!
Now they say the bicycle suicide bomber was a coward.
How so? by confronting tanks with a bike?
Or by being prepared to die for his cause?
Lives are not so prescious in Afghanistan, they are used to the idea of sacrifices to get their message across.
The message is quite clear: "Leave us alone!"
Why are we fighting amerikkkkkans war?
Please remeber at the next election!

So Friday it was the faceless editorial in the rag the province and yesterday it was bc liberal moutpieces the sun and global tv defending the massive 2 billion olympic deficit with some phony poll.
What did you phone point grey only?
Yeah all is forgiven and furthermore just write a blank cheque if you need to! After all we EXPECT these kind of debacles so that makes it ok!
Slimebags. Liars. Circle jirk a$$wholes.
How about our own poll.
Well what do you think fellow bloggers.
Is evrything as pechy as canwest says?
How do you feel about your hard earned taxes going down into the olympic sinkhole?

lynn; i'd love to spend xmas in maui. send me a cheque and i'll take my wife to the place we were married 17 years ago. cute little diatribe, but far too misleading, although it looks like the minions ate it up. here's the truth lynn: those questions ARE being asked. people aren't paying attention the way you lefty whiners are b/c generally speaking they're happy with this fine gov't and are willing to forgive the occasional fauxpas. have a nice day sweetie.

British Import show: Yes Prime Minister
That show tells it like it is! It indeed seem to be how things happen: the mandarins run the show and the elected representatives get a song and a dance instead of proper answers!
Perhaps we are blaming the wrong people?
About the Olympics: (may I write that word without permission?)
No polls are needed, the average citizen could not afford to participate anyway, so why should they want to invest in it?

Nana,

That is about the most startling and depressing link, which you posted, that I have been made aware of ever... bar none. I hope events prove that it is wrong, but all my instincts are screaming, "You know that it is correct."

If others of you have not read it, I urge you to do so.

You fuggin' Cons want to talk to me about "democracy"?

You have no concept.

Nana,

Read this:
http://www.truthout.org/issues_06/091906LA.shtml

As for you and your fine govt idiot
kiss my (1)

Maybe we just should shoot ourselves now!

Coyote,

You are still looking at 'the canada' with rose-colored glasses on. There is not one shred of useful evidence, other than quasi-emotional ones, to support the continued connection of BC to the rest of canada.

Nor does the separation of BC from 'the canada' mean that I want it to become part of the US, nor do I think that it would.

For one, it would be more likely to see Vancovuer take over the 'free port' position that Hong Kong previously held, such a move would go a long way towards making BC a really free place to live and prosper.

But then even if BC separates, I suppose Coyote and his ilk would prefer to see us all don the required gray coveralls and pick up a tool to slave away in the co-op.

Elliot

so since the legislature is just theater anyway, why have one?

why not just vote (in the little computer terminal designed, built, programmed and serviced by a BCLiberal Party friendly firm) then BOHICA once the government decides what to do?

BECAUSE

That is not how a parliamentary system is supposed to work.

It is supposed to have some control over the purse-strings of 'the crown'.

Now, thanks to the party political machines, we have neither a working parliamentary system, nor any control over the purse-strings.

This is what we get when the 'employees' are running the show.

Well, as most folks are doing what you describe, more for the big capitalist corp in any case, or for even worse starvation wages in most of the smaller enterprises of so-called "free enterprise", I would think they just might prefer to be "participatory owner-workers" in their own democratically run co-op. It might involve a learning curve how to do it, but it can't be worse or any less democratic than owner-capitalist enterprise.

And I'm assuming here that we are actually talking about worker-community owned co-ops. with a full fledged operating democracy, and not what passes for that in current capitalism, which is really more, very often, merely that system's view of what a co-op is.

I'd rather wear my grey overhauls to work and participate as an owner-worker in that co-op enterprise, than anything you and your ilk have to offer, Murdock. Assuming there is the same "public interest" political and financial machinery there to assist that and those owner-workers as the Capitalist State puts into supporting , underwriting, providing interest free and forgivable loans, tax breaks and write-offs, marketing and development assistance to small capitalist and corporate enterprise under the current system, to underwrite their theft from us all.

Ain't nothing more grey or more dis-empowering than going to work in one of these "same old, same old" powerless, beaten down, do as you're told, kiss the bosses ass, take what you get and be grateful capitalist enterprises. It may excite you Murdock, but not us on the other side of the power arrangement. Which even a trade union can only ever partly mitigate against.

As a worker, I want power. And I have long watched how the big boys do it. Power belongs to those and that class which has the balls and the will to just up and take it, and organize society in their interest. Something the entire working class and Joe and Jane Average citizen needs to learn.

And I don't care what ya call it, "co-op", a "worker-community friendly" or "liberated enterprise", whatever. So long as it like the rest of society is truly democratic, and I really feel like I've got a democratic, participatory role in it, more than just being an extension of some other fugger's machine.

Gotta be prepared to kick a little ass to get there though. :-)

I would hope that Canada never uses the USA as a guide for any part of the government. The Shrub that now occupies the White House should be reason enough to avoid that mistake

And you're NOT quasi- emotional murdock?

Oh, come on Rafe. Democracy means in our system not governance by the people, but the consent of the people. Most people aren't interested in participating in governance. They should. They aren't. You are always going to have rule by an elite - even in the Legislature. The elite has to have power to actually _do_ things. The mroe complicated the things they have to do, in this modern age, the more power they need. The task is to make sure that they govern, generally, by consent. Diminish the power of the elite, empower the "ordinary" backbenchers, and you'll have either chaos or more likely something like the Americans have - rule by special interests, who usually represent the status quo. That's why the Americans can get universal health care (though most want it), why the rights of women to choose is constantly threatened by religious fanatics, why the military-industrial complex runs foreign policy, etc. & etc. The problem isn't that Bush has too much power (except militarily)- it's that in terms of doing something to benefit most of the American peope, he has too little. (Not that Bush cares - but the system elects people like Bush because people like Clinton can't do anything... not that Clinton was great shakes.)

Now that's just a little too Roman. Bush doesn't have enough power? How do you judge that? Too many survivors? Not enough debt?

Did he leave you too many pesky civil rights? C'mon confess. That's it, isn't it. You think he'd only take away OTHER peoples lives and freedoms, don't you, DNA.

Two must see new videos

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-6708190071483512003
9/11 Mysteries (Full Length, High Quality)
This is a brand new public domain 9/11 Truth documentary about the controlled demolition of the World Trade Center complex. It's ... all » excellent. Pass this link on!

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-3719132275557884702&hl=en-CA
Aaron Russo - America: Freedom To Fascism
Although it's primarily about the US Federal Reserve sytem, it is also about the one world government that we are being dragged into.

Keep it up, Nana. Certainly interesting stuff. For sure enough to fuel a healthy skepticism.

Though that second one won't come up. Says it's been withdrawn or no longer available, on my pc.

I knew co-op was the right word to use to get the Coyote to howl.

Please, re-read animal farm Coyote. This time actually read it all the way thru and not the 'coles notes' version.

Alcibiades posted:

no more or less, perhaps less than others advocating for the status quo and supporting the continuance of 'the canada' social experiment.

I say less as I am aware of my myers-briggs score and know that 'feeling' is something I have to concentrate on in order to do.

I have no emotional connection with Ottawa other than revulsion. I am completely fed-up with seeing the amounts of tribute that we pay there and seeing that treasure pissed up the wall on non-sensical garbage (artworks that my 3 year old son can do better, remember 'spirit of fire'?) or more 'social' services that are totally not needed (except to keep some more folks 'employed' under the federal government control).

I am even more tired of watching that same treasure used to influence Provincial elections so that there are the needed supports for the 'status-quo' coming from TO boardrooms.

Cut the connections and the problems can be better seen, the 'campaign' finances can be actually inspected - locally. Volunteers can be correctly accounted for, and their services 'in kind' dealt with correctly. Locally, here in BC, not in some Ottawa basement, Toronto back room or Quebec chamber.

Time for BC to stop being dependant, and truly stand up independant.

Passon for separation from the 'center' in Ottawa perhaps, but not emotional.

Coyote
Yes, there are many trailers and interviews, but the film itself is gone.

http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/
Today connects the bloodless democratic coup in Thailand with other third world freedom movements. Real stuff is happening in the world while we go through the motions of democracy. In December, the Liberals will give us another NWO candidate and we will then debate his merits here,I suppose.

Alcibiades

Why don't you get angry at the fact that we are paying interest to private banks when the Bank of Canada has the power to create interest free money. Doesn't the fact that last time I heard, 40% of tax revenue was
spent on paying the interest on the interest of a national debt which never needed to happen in the first place.
see: Bank of Canada Tutorial
http://www.canadianactionparty.ca/temp/Bank_Of_Canada/intrort.asp

Getting closer to Uncle Sam
Public kept in dark as business leads talks about North American integration, By Maude Barlow
Sep. 20, 2006. 01:00 AM
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1158702613986&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795

Speak for yourself, Grumpy. Maybe just a simple adjusting of your meds might help. Posters here have waaaaaaayyy too much time on their hands.

Nana
I'm away ahead of you. Check out this story from Maclean's last week:
Meet NAFTA 2.0

Forget sweeping trade deals. CEOs have a new approach to integration with a
long, long list of incremental changes.
LUIZA CH. SAVAGE

The link I have is dead but you should be able to find it if you work around a little.

If not, let me know and I'll post the whole thing.

BTW I've been posting critical comments about the banking and tax system for months.

Murdock - I'd say Napolean and Snowball would fit your defintion of 'Sovereign Individuals' just fine. It was the other animals who had a problem with their 'revolution'. And, as I said earlier, you're the most emotional poster around here when it comes to destroying Canada and building Murdockville.

Alcibiades, clearly not having read Sovereign Individual posted:

Not possible, as a truly 'Sovereign Individual', is more like the Queen of England or the Sultan of Brunei, or Bill Gates.

People whom can achieve goals with or without the immediate help of any direct 'subjects'. Snowball and Napolean are constructs from the 1917 Soviet revolution.

Future 'Sovereign Individuals' will have more in common with Bill Gates, in that they will care not a whit for the demands and doings of any 'nation state' governance, as they, the 'Sovereign Individuals' can choose to do their business elsewhere.

A current case in point is the massive investment Berkshire Hathaway has been making in Northern Israel. The Israelies have long been trying to attract investors for more high-tech ventures, now there seems to be some attention.

Further evidence of high-tech futures is coming from St Petersburg and the Yangtzee River Valley, only time will tell if the 'Napoleans' in the woodwork will come out again to muck-up the works in those locations.

India is a prime example of the kind of future we should start to expect, to understand it better, try reading 'The World Is Flat' ~ Thomas L. Friedman.

I know that I am not alone in seeing a disconnect between the intelligencia of Ottawa and the hands and hearts of Cowichan, I think that the time for severing the ties to that money-pit in Ottawa is coming closer. I have no interest in building a 'Murdockville' as you put it, only in seeing the influence that Ottawa has over us go away.

Dear Murdock, You said above that you are aware of difficulty "feeling". Perhaps you're just out of practice. It's a very common malady in our times.

About a hundred and fifty years ago, we (European Westerners) started putting aside certain elements of human society. Putting them so far aside that we became able to deny they were ever there at all. We built 'facilities' and 'institutions', and, when we were being very generous to ourselves, 'asylums'.

They were prisons for the people with needs. Our children, certain ones. Our brothers and sisters who came to confusion. Our elders, when they could no longer give.

Without these people among us, without the supreme gift they offered us, their need, we were able to foster this delusion of independence you have.

Sovreign individuals. There are no such things. We are all in absolute connection with each other, like it or not, however much you tell yourself it ain't so. They think their billion dollars or their political power or whatever makes them special, that because the rest of us are looking for work, and they are hiring, that they don't need anyone. They can accomplish what they want alone. With nobody's help (ezcept the forty thousand people who actually accomplish the insane projects for them).

It's a true delusion, this idea of isolated individuality. A particularly dangerous one. I recommend you think more deeply about it.

A human very long out of contact with his fellows soon goes mad, then dies.

murdock
Ah but you forget the ending. I was referring to the final agreement between the pigs, those sovereign individuals, who, in furtherance of their own selfish interests, entered into an agreement with humans that allowed them to return to Manor Farm – for, in a way, their technical know how.

Perhaps my reference to Snowball and Napoleon confused you. Even so, I'd say the pigs wanted to be in relationship to those who have not yet 'evolved' into 'sovereign individuals' in just the way you and Rees Moog see certain groups of individuals who have the wherewithal to make their way in the evolving neo-technical world while the rest of human kind play step and fetch it for them.

No thanks.

Bailey – some of us are working on a little project. You might be interested. Email me at