How silly of Mr Sinclair to promote the National Childcare program as a way to prevent crime. As if a Public sector union member who has her ECE is going to be able to teach and mold my toddler to be an upstanding member of society.
As a mom I have an imvested interest in my children. I am passonite about teaching my young children morals, values, respect, manners...
To even suggest that a daycare could compete of even surpass a loveing parent and prevent future criminal activity is laughable Mr Sinclair.
Babies and toddlers do BEST at home with a mom to love, care and teach them. They will feel more secure, valued and they will thrive. A national childcare program will not give our children a ticket to get out of jail free. A union worker will be there for the $, pension, and some paid holidays. She may like working with children but she will pale in comparision to a devoted mother. Harpers plan of giving parents the $ each month to enable them to stay at home with there young ones, training them in the way they should go is a far superior way to provent crime than what you are promoting.

Vindictive, phony, hypocritical conservatives.
Are they going to put all their white-collar, corporate criminal supporters in the slammer for polluting the environment and seperating middle-class investors from their meager lives-savings?
No, but dime-bag kid or petty, bread theiving criminal joe will get 5 years in a new private-for-profit prison.
Maybe they can reinstitute the prison work camp. Then our cheap labour will be able to compete with china's slave labour in the bs globalized economy these b@stards embrace withy such fervour.
fu harper.

Let`s be clear on this point. Jim Sinclair is opposed to privately run prisons for profit. Where does he stand on government run prisons full of public sector employees? That`s how credible he is.

Mommyinlove- in an ideal world, parents provide the best for their children. Unfortunately, many parents cannot afford to stay at home and raise their children, and some (omg) people are not the best parents in the world, and daycare would provide the stability that these children need to grow into contributing citizens.
I gather that you have the luxury of staying at home to raise your children, lucky you. Others do not have this option. A national daycare program would provide not only a standardized form of daycare, but would assure that people in my position would have access to daycare if they needed it. I have been denied daycare, simply because my child has been deemed “special needs”. Never mind that I have the money to afford daycare, I could not access daycare and had to take my child to university and work. A national daycare program would help parents of special needs children access daycare, and not have to live on social programs because they can not work due to a lack of daycare. The money that Harper is “giving” families with children under 6 years of age is nothing short of vote grab. If Harper cared about families, either A) they would be a realistic amount of money involved, or B) they could create a national daycare program.
Who are you to judge the motives and feelings of a paid caregiver? I have known many workers personally, and they do “care” for the children that they are responsible for. In a perfect world, it would be ideal for one parent to stay at home with their children, but scenario does not happen all the time. Sometimes, in order for the parents to provide “a loving” home, they have to leave their children with someone else. This does not mean that the paid workers do not “care” for the children that they are watching. The added bonus of daycare is that it prepares children for interacting with other children.
I think its great that you have been afforded the opportunity to stay at home and raise your children, but for some of us, this has never been a luxury we could afford, and a national daycare program would have provided some stability in the care of children.

what a great hypothesis: don't do it because the U.S. does. typical lefty blather. let's try the ndp way, which is to do absolutely nothing at all and have faith that they'll quit their life of crime.

"Jim Sinclair is president of the B.C. Federation of Labour. The Tyee receives some funding from the B.C. Fed."

If Stephen Harper really wanted to set and example about crime he wouldn't have a justice minisiter who was convicted of election fraud.

One thing our over exposure to all things americans does is show us what doesn't work, elected judges, easier access to guns, mandatory sentencing... These are all policies Harper wants to implement here but we already know they don't work.

Excellent article.

I'll never get why the right has no problem spending oodles of cash putting drug users and petty criminals in jail, but freaks out when we might spend this money on treatment or training. I've an inkling it costs more to have someone fed, housed and babysat all the time than it does to provide training etc. Granted, some people just like to make their living thieving, whether they are thieving TVs or pensions, or just getting rich off of other peoples hard work. Put those folks in jail, then...

If throwing folks in Jail made us safer the US would be the safest place on earth (highest prison population in the G8) In fact the highest murder rates are in the states that have the death penalty, it's plain and simple tougher
and dumber don't work. These policies appeal to rednecks and old white haired conservative thinkers hiding in their gated communities. No wonder the neo cons could not vote in one MP in Canada's largest cities, maybe red dear Moose Jaw etc,

Elliott says

hat a great hypothesis: don't do it because the U.S. does

I have followed many of these posts, the fact is that many Canadians don't value us as a sovereign nation, they would love to be the 51st state, anything to bring up into the US is a good idea, sorry Elliott we are Canadian
and we won't buy this BS, I call these folks Bootlicks to the empire. Like the French who conspired with the Nazi occupation.

And neocon

Before you think your clever , Everyone knows Jim Sinclair and the tyee posts its supporters , its no secret. Every media outlet like your hero's over at Canwest have financial backers, what are you smoking man. Oh I get it , media that agrees with you is open and non bias but media that threatens you dummed down sense of reality
is bias, get help man. Everything that is said is bias to some extent depending on who says it, its up to you to figure out reality based on the information given, it requires you to think , don't be afraid some of us do it everyday.
In short start thinking for yourself you will be much happier and less afraid.

Harper is just doing his corporate buddies the same service that Reagan, Clinton and the two Bushes have done in the US. The Gulag System, er, the prison system, is one of the fastest and most profitable sections of the Us economy right now - next to Murder Inc. or the military-industrial complex. In order to have a gulag you have to have zeks, and by insane drug laws - treating addiction as a criminal problem and not a social-medical one, and giving non-violent offenders prison terms, you create a host of profit-generating prisoners. Totally cynical and totally psychopathic on the part of the rulers, but this is what we have come to expect from them. Some day they will pay for THEIR crimes...

Elliot: "what a great hypothesis: don't do it because the U.S. does"

The hypothesis is not to reject an idea simply because the US does it. Rather, the hypothesis is, why implement a system that has been shown to be a massive failure in a country with a similar economy and culture. Comments like "lefty blather" and "Vindictive, phony, hypocritical conservatives" just dumb down the whole debate. People should talk more about the ideas being discussed and not who is putting forth those ideas. Everyone has an agenda, but good ideas come from all sorts of places. If the so-called left and right would start listening to each other a little more and actually debating ideas in a meaningful way maybe we could come up with some solutions that appeal to a wide range of Canadian citizens.

I agree C-atilla, that we should be more open, but sometimes it is also necessary to call a spade a spade.

WHY? If the USA is so unsafe , or safer depending on who is commenting, why then are there people from all over the world queuing to live and make the states their home.
I for have no intention of ever living in the states ,I don’t even visit.

Hey Neets,
Acually I am a "paid" caregiver. I run a family daycare out of my home to supplment my income so I can have the "luxury" to stay at home and raise my kids. I provide great "care" for the children I am intrusted to care for, but it is not the same as raising my own children. I or any other caregiver will not have the same commitment to raising and rearing a child that a parent would. Sorry but it is a fact.
I'm sorry that you cant find care for your special needs child. You mentioned that you are "forced" to take him to work and school with you. Why not just bite the bullet and stay home with him for the few short years he is home before he has to go off to school. You would be the best caregiver to your little one I'm sure.
Anyways my whole beef was with Mr Sinclair suggesting that a National Childcare program would prevent children from becoming future criminals.
This is a ludicrious assumption. I will never be comvinced that a daycare in any shape or form is better than a parent raising there child.
I strongly believe that if a mom or dad wants to stay at home and raise there child they can. Sacrafices (financial, and carrer wise) will have to be made. That is a given. It's what being a parent is all all about, sacrafice. It is not up to the gov't to "provide" a place for us to farm our baby's and toddlers off to everyday. It is not up to them to make daycare "affordable" so that moms can go off to work and make some money. It is OUR job as parents to either stay at home and take care of OUR children, or find a spot for our child at a daycare. The gov't doesn't need to be involved in daycare and the tax payers don't need to pay the bill.

One great problem is that many people in jail are mentaly ill or suffer some form of mental retardation! (In the states they just executed a guy because he was 2 IQ points over the limit where they would not allow execution!) Throw more people in jail is the clarion call of the simpleton.

Certainly jails must hold violent criminals and muderers, no argument, but making jail the be all and end all for crime is nonsense.

Crime starts young and Sinclair's argument for child daycare has some merit, but there is more. what has happened is that society in Canada ignores children and promotes poor educational stards so everyone will pass. Big mistake.

Idle children get into mischief and are easy pickins for the criminal elites. Every one wants easy money, just ask the grow-op types or politicians on the take.

Society lets children, in some cases, get away with murder, this later grows into violent crime. In the USA chidren with ages as low as 12, are jailed and turned into real violent criminals.

There is no simplistic solution, unless you avocate more jails and as I stated in the beginning, most people in jail are mentally ill and/or mentally retarded.

Mommyinlove said:

You actually make some good points, but I think you're aiming at the wrong target. As Neets pointed out above, a stay-at-home parent is a wonderful child-rearing option. For those that can afford to sacrifice this time and money, it is usually better for children than daycare.

Unfortunately, many parents don't have a choice. The small stay-home subsidy is certainly not enough to make up for lost earnings potential. Single parents especially find themselves with few options.

An affordable childcare option, promised since 1993 and thus a victim of Liberal politicking as much as Conservative heartlessness, would give many parents options. Rather than staying home and scraping by on welfare checks, single parents (usually single mothers) would be able to stay in the workforce and possibly work towards better employment opportunities.

Childcare isn't the best option for every parent. Some will choose to stay at home, and that's great. But without public funding, childcare is so expensive that it's a painful option, or an impossibility, for many parents.

Hi Kano,
In the case of a low income or single mom they normally will get most of there childcare covered in subsady $ paid for by the provincial and fed gov't
I support that, not a National child care progam.

So this piece could have used another day or two to rough out the edges, like with the day care leap to crime prevention ending (sounds more Liberal than NDP, but anyways), maybe a little more on the subject you've brought up, but all in all, there are some good facts in this article and Sinclairs opinions for the most part, in my opinion anyways, is sound.

Rafe did an article on prisons a while back, so this issue is not entirely new to the Tyee...

I have a cousin that worked until recently as a prison guard in Alberta. Kleins conservative government has looked quite seriously at privatizing Alta prisons and turning prisons into for profit as it is in the U.S. for the last 5 years. You know, Klein and Harper and the NCC and their american friends having the U.S. privatize and integrate mindset they have (its how it is with politicians, they think like broker houses, selling off government assets, making some deals, getting a commission, perks, a few kickbacks on the side...)

The usual talk centered on how much more profitable prisons would be if they paid their guards less with less benefits, and the potential for using prisoners for labour to make prisons more profitable and how much more economically efficient and better run prisons would be, you know, the usual Conservative ideology presumptions... until they looked at the numbers from the U.S. in terms of costs, and getting what you pay for.

Universal systems, however hard they get knocked, have major advantages in being universal because costs and spending have better margins overall, as they become larger by scale. Standards can and are also much more clearly met in terms of getting what you pay for as well. The penal system in Canada has a broader range of goals than the provision of punnishment and public safety to suit the crime. It is also about rehabilitation and as such, should be considered as a service, I believe, an essential service.

The U.S. penal system does not share the same broader range of goals as Canada does, not only because its "for profit", but because their penal system really isn't viewed as "rehabilitating", but more for punnishment and public safety.

As such, U.S. prisons have much lower standards in terms of conditions than Canadian prisons, as a result of Canada not having for profit corporate goals of pearing down costs through the provision of spending that for profit prisons will try their hardest to not pay for, including "rehabilitation".

In all aspects, from catering to maintenance and security, for profit delivery of services drops compared to government run facilities. This includes wages and overall prison conditions, I might add. My cousin was making 25 an hour, to do a job that likely guaranteed you to be a witness to suicides, violence, and a part of a ton of fights including the odd once every 6 months to 2 years blood bath. In other words, its high stress. Would you do it for 12 dollars an hour for a for profit corporation? Most wouldn't do it for $25. Anyone thinking that for profit penal systems is a good idea, can think again for to many reasons to list.

This explains a whole lot here. Rather than trying to pawn themselves off as an objective site for journalism, they should disclose this fact.

In my opinion, Jim Sinclair has done more to hold BC back than any other person. His regressive ideas have led to terrible relations between organized labour and business.

It has cost him though. He and his people have made it so that employees are a foe of management, as opposed to a partner.

Flexibility is necessary for an employer in this day and age.

NOW that being said. I didn't read any of this article. The crap written by this fool is surely ideological and full of crap. Not worth a second of my time

You can give all the love and attention you want to your children at home and they can still grow up rotten. Ted Kaczynski the infamous unabomber came from a loving family, went to Harvard and became a brilliant mathematics professor before choosing the life of a hermit and terrorist. At the same time the low murder rates in Scandinavia cited in the article all have extensive daycare facilities. Does either imply an argument for or against daycare? Not really. In our increasingly fissiparous society it merely adds fuel to the Nature vs. Nurture debate. If Harper wants to adopt a fundamentalist/American approach it won't resolve anything.

Its been widely noted since the beginning. But do you also demand the Vancouver Sun and Province put on the front page of every paper, even in small print, that they donate to the BC Liberal party?

Ironic. I often feel the same way about you and your own posts!

I don't know why the Canadian government or civil service should follow the American model on anything since they have been spectacularly unsuccessful at just about everything recently. It's a reverse Midas effect - the Bush administration has been turning everything it touches into - well - not gold, anyway. Health care, education, foreign policy, monetary policy, trade have been unmitigated disasters.

But military spending and building and supplying prisons make a lot of money for people in that business, which seems to be the only growth industries in the U.S. these days. Do we really want to go there?

The right-wing people in office in Canada at the moment, though, delight in splitting people apart and then setting them against each other. As long as they are fighting with each other, the government can get on with its agenda. Its role is not to tell us what to do but to support us in what we decide to do. I don't see much of that in the anal-retentive control-freak top-down style of government we're experiencing at the moment, though.

Throwing more people in jail is simply not going to have any impact on crime whatsoever. Jail is simply a finishing school for criminals and building more of them makes for more and better criminals.

No matter what right wing nut jobs like Vic Towes might say, crime is not a major problem in Canada. The track the previous government was on was the correct one. Unfortunately, this is a complex problem well out the capability of the average voter and thus politcally appealing to a populist like Herr Harper.

Jim Sinclair is of course very biased but on many issues he makes sense. He does realise that governments set policy and that social changes must be made at the ballot box. If his lap dogs were better at winning elections he could have some of those changes, too.

Chicken Little - you clearly don't know what you are talking about - the US had over 5% growth in the first quarter of this year - which was higher than Canada.

I can assure you that this growth was not all in building of prisons...the manufacturing sector rebounded in a big way, tech spending is up, there is M&A activity throughout America. In fact, the economy is so hot, that the Fed has boosted interest rates 20-something consective times.

I am not going to say the Bush admistration has done a great job. However, they have presided over one of the best economic periods the United States has seen since the Raegen era. Unemployment is incredibly low and productivity has never been higher.

It is true that trade deficits are at a record high. However, they are coming down. It is true that the deficit is high, and that is a legitimate concern.

Please - again, you lefties ignore the economic realities.

I read the article and I have to give Mr. Sinclair a little bit of credit. He hid his underlying message fairly well.

Call me a skeptic, but this reads - lets increase the public sector workforce and public spending. However, he has packaged this in a way that uses anti-americanism/bushism.

Name just one regressive idea, if you don't mind. Since your into bashing Jim without providing any reasons, perhaps you could actually sight a reason or example to justify your claims, instead of us having to jump to the usual conclusions relating to your usual pompous put downs of others... to build yourself up. Again. (yawn)

Spoken like a true ideologue!!!

Although I'm sympathetic to the thesis in this article, there are huge holes in it.

- no analysis of how many people are in Canadian prisons. Are federal institutions full? Empty?

- The USA incarcerates 7x the amount of people per 100,00 than we do -- we have to imprison many more people before we are even close to copying them, yet the whole article is framed in terms of how Harper's gov't is adopting a "us-style crime agenda"

- although the USA does incarcerate a lot of people, I wonder how many people are in Chinese prisons

- no distinction was made between petty drug offences/property crimes and violent offences. Many Canadians are outraged when violent offenders receive soft sentences -- deterrence isn't the objective in these cases, it is keeping predators away from would-be victims. A closer analysis here could have strengthened the argument

- increased spending on young people and those with mental illnesses probably would have an impact on crime rates, but this would not necessarily need to take the form of a national child care program.

Capitalism,

You browbeat Chicken Little -

but make some rather glaring mistakes in your economic observations:

1. The U.S. economy did not grow over 5% in the first quarter. The annualized growth rate, as projected in the first quarter, is 5.5%.

However, the current annualized U.S. inflation rate is 3.1%. Therefore, real economic growth is only going to be about 2.4% this year. Now, this 2.4% growth rate includes miitary expenditure which, under normal peacetime circumstances, would not be recurring.

So I don't think it's accurate to say that the U.S. economy is going gangbusters. A more apt comparison would be to compare it to a tired person who's just had a few cans of Red Bull - they'll look energized for awhile, but eventually you gotta get some sleep.

2. Not to be a stickler, but the Fed has raised interest rates 16 consecutive times, not 20+.

That's it for now...

Steve P,
The Chinese incarceration rate is 118 per 100,000 residents. The U.S. rate is almost seven times greater.

[link]www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2005/04/26/2003252061[/link]

Capitalism:
I don't get it. How is a freeze in capital expenditures on new prisons and hired public staff to run them, an increase in expenditures, especially in comparision to what this government has in mind? For whatever reason, this fact doesn't seem to count to you. The same goes for those baby checks pawned off as daycare cheques. That costs money! And the bottom line, is, are there area's in Canada without daycare services, and SHOULD DAYCARE BE CONSIDERED AS AN ESSENTIAL SERVICE?

And if daycare IS considered an essential service, along with our penal systems, courts, government administrations, pensions, police, the wheat board, military, unions, medicare and education to name most of the majors, are you actually suggesting that the private sector can and will not only provide the same level of services and standards met more efficiently in all areas including human and labor rights, public access, inclusivity and affordability, while at the same time provide these services more cheaply than the largest most universal systems of all, the monopoly with the lowest expense margins, et.el. a government that actually governs?

And some would argue power companies, some transportation sectors, insurance and banking can also be considered to be "essential services", that we need crown corporations in these sectors along with direct government legislation to actually stablize and REGULATE control consumer pricing from dramatic rises in inflation due to monopolies and market trends of greed in the markets. Things, I imagine, you don't want to hear.

Thing is, Capitalism, your own ideology is boring. Any market that doesn't belong to the "publicly traded market" is the target of your slurs. And what you are saying in those slurs is that essential services should be trusted in the hands of the private sector, the likes of world.com and Enron. Sorry, dude, but I won't trust the braintrust of someone who'll trust the emotional tides of greed and fear in the markets to make some dough at the expense of essential human services. (that kinda reminds me of a spun out _lut)

Point is, you already have lion share in terms of market share of what businesses and services are private or public. Is your greed so insatiable that you need, as an investor, to profit off of absolutely everything including essential services, knowing that corporations sometimes go BROKE?

C'mon. People need to have the security of knowing that essential services won't be the victims of the next Enron or Exxon, for that matter.

Well,

Having been to Sweden and in particular, the city of Stockholm, I can give you my impression.

I was shocked that there were so many kids out unsupervised at night, but then realized that it really is a different world. I also noticed that you could leave your bike unlocked in some of the smaller cities and towns without coming back to no bike or a stripped bike if it was locked.

Building more prisons and supposedly getting tough on crime does not deter crime in the least. It appeals to the bluehairs and suburban army.

mommyinlove: you make some very good points and I agree with you completely. Thank you.

Mandatory minimum senteces in the U.S. for drug crimes has meant violent offenders(rapists, murderers) getting out to make room for the drug prisoners.

This does fit in with Stephen Harpers belief, tax dollars should go to the military and prisons whereas healthcare and education is best served by the private sector.

Thank goodness that Harper, although he postures on being tough on crime, hasn't suggested anything like the prison-filling "3 convictions = life sentence" policy used in some US jurisdictions (California?).

Although I do wish he'd support the safe injection site in the DTES of Vancouver ...

Trumpeting that the US Economy is growing at 5% is pure nonsense mainly because it is being primed with borrowed and printed money.

It is only elementary thinking that an affordable, accessable and quality day care system is absolutely essential for the well-being of any society. They break down to the Afro-American family unit in the USA is a major cause of crime in that country. Access to decent daycare would be an enormous assistance to working or single parents.

I got my $200 from Herr Harper, what a freaking joke, I need it like another whole in the head and it will all be taxed back next year anyway! Absurd!

Like it or not, the Leave it to Beaver era is over. Letites and right wing nut-jobs would both be better if they realised it.

Disparaging something without even reading it. wow. Capitalism, that is all people really need know about the intellectual content of your viewpoints.
And your use of "fool", "ideological", and "crap" surely must be among the most ironic ever penned on this forum.
Thanks for the entertainment.

Mommyinlove- My point was that a standardized national daycare would prevent my problems from happening to other people. As a single parent of a special needs child, I received above and beyond what is given to the average person for day-care subsidy. This in no way shape or form entitled me to actual day-care. National daycare would prevent this from happening to others, not just me. Attempting to survive on social assistance is not an option, since I would not be able to afford to provide the basics for my child or myself. Seeing as that I have looked after other peoples children for extended periods of time, I can tell you, that you can care for other peoples children as if their were your own. Just because you do not happen to feel that way, does not imply that other care-givers do not.

The reality is that for some parents, staying home is not an option. Affordable, decent, standardized daycare is a must. Not all parents wish to spend their days trailing after their children, they would much rather be at work. This is their choice, but there should be some a set standard of national daycare in place to ensure that a certain minimum level of care is achieved for all children who are in day-care. And in reality not all parents are able to cope with the demands of young children, and they choose to work, rather than stay at home with their children. In making commitments to your children, it is best that one recognizes the fact if they are good at the day to day parenting, of if the children are better off in daycare. The situation with my child, allowed me to go to work, and know he was welled cared for, it was only went I went back to school that I encountered problems with the lack of accessibility for special needs children in a daycare setting. Fortunately, I attended a progressive university, which allowed parents to bring their children to class or work as the case maybe. But if I had been attending anywhere else, this option would not have been available to me. Has my child benefited from being with me 24/7? In some instances yes, but in others, the needs of my school work have hampered on his socialization time, and this has to be sacrificed in order for me to complete my schooling so we can have a better future together as a family. Sacrificing in the present allows me to provide my child with more opportunities in the future. My child is now too old for a daycare setting, but because I home school him, he is still with me all the time, and unless an extended family member watches him well I am in class, he still attends university with me. Is this an ideal situation? The answer is mixed. In some cases he knows above and beyond what is expected for his age group- (how many 5 year olds get to hang out in an archaeology lab?) but he still is mostly with adults all the time, and not with age related peers. Having a standardized national daycare system in place would allow me the options of putting him with other children his own age, instead of hanging out with adults all the time.
A national daycare problem would ensure that all children could be in daycare if their parents desired, not just the healthy perfect children that the daycares seem to prefer. The measly hundred dollars a month given to parents of children under 6 years of age, is really just a slap in the face. The government had a chance to provide some real options for parents, and instead opted for political favour. Does this make sense? About as much sense as building more prisons. As Workingman stated, prison is just a finishing school for criminals. But putting more money in to ensuring that the future generations grow up with less negative influences than previous generations would go further in lowering crime rates, not more finishing schools for wannabe criminals.

Hi again Neets,
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I can tell that you are a great mom and really care for your little man. Your points are well taken and I agree that the $100 a month isn't going to "solve" the daycare delema for those who can't access daycare for there kids.

The fedral conservitive government reminds me of a badley run company.I dont think they can run our country into the ground in four years.If they get in for another four we will up sh** creek. It is only misinformed people who were tricked into thinking the conservitive party is for them .Unless you are rich live in a gated cummunity Why did you vote for them? Those are the only people they benifit. More prisions are a dumb idea.Cons are just buying more votes. Buying more hillbilly votes. why did you vote for them?

Hi again Neets,
Thanks for your thoughtful response.
I can tell that you are a great mom and really care for your little man. Your points are well taken and I agree that the $100 a month isn't going to "solve" the daycare delema for those who can't access daycare for there kids.
I personally get $300 a month for my 3 younger kids so this money really helps us out. It helps cover preschool for our family which is also a type of childcare.
I still don't see daycare as a gov't problem though. I don't think that they "owe" anyone afforadable daycare spaces. I am all for them subsidising low income families. I still think that it is up to each family to find or provide childcare for there young children. Another Federal program that will employe 1000's of public sector workers, paid for out of the tax payers pocket makes me crige.
In response to the article I don't see how a Federal daycare program would possibly prevent future criminals either. It is very disrespectful to those of us who do daycare from home or for the parents who stay at home all day with there kids. Parenting full time is the hardest, most stressful yet most rewarding "job" in the world. I think that you and I could both agree on that. Have a great night!

Mommyinlove, if there was (in dreamland) a federally run day-care program, it would ensure access for all children, not the current state of affairs where only "preferred" children are given access to day-care. The setting of national standards would go far in ensuring that all had access to day-care that wanted or needed it. The current system, only lets those who can afford it and have perfect children access to daycare. That reason alone should be enough to endorse a national daycare program. The handicapped are granted to access/aspects of Canadian society, but daycare. There are no laws to stop the discriminate against disabled/special needs children. Now whether I would personally utilize such a system is neither here nor there, my point is that there is mass discrimination against special needs disabled children in this country.
I am not sure how it is disrespectful to people such as your self who stay at home to raise their children (or other peoples children as the case may be) to provide a national standard of care. By investing in children now, in the present, and by continuing this investment, helps prevent children being left to their own devices or worse yet the devices of unscrupulous adults, which may or may not end the said child in the prison system as a worst case scenario or worst yet a drain on society as a damaged human being.
Since the provincials liberals came into power, most people I know who did qualify for subsidy before, were now making to much money and could no longer afford to send their children to after school care. You may ask what happened to these children. They got to stay at home alone, instead of being in a safe supervised environment. So subsidizing is not the full answer for daycare. It’s not a perfect world, and we all make individual choices that best reflect our choices at the time. Nationalized Day-Care would provide more positive choices for people. I am not advocating that if we had a national day-care system that we would all have to put our children into care, just that as long as there are options, the better parents feel making decisions.

mommyinlove writes:

This truly baffles me. They are we! We collectively pay taxes to provide services that we deem necessary. It's not a handout.

Here is a wonderful protest song I found today. In the middle of it is a segment on the US prison system. This song shows the US where it's at in society today. The only reason we're not is our socio-democratic policies. Do we want to make Canada over in this terrible image? We're on our way.

Of course it is about providing huge corporations profit. In the US most prisons are private. Many are feeding prisoners once a day! And, horrid food. Let's remember what service these 'crooks' who feed prisoners one meal a day and commit other crimes against human beings through mistreatment are doing it in our name.
There is a scandal right now that suggests some of the Iraqi prisoner abuses are becoming routine in US prisons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTW0...related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTW0y6kazWM&mode=related&search=

Sorry, it's this one, not the former.

So true, well said redrivergirl.

greenalbertan:

That is what you mean when you talk about quarterly or monthly growth. Growth is always annualized.

Though, I did like your analysis on US inflation, which is why rates have increased 16 times. Still, real GDP and economic growth in the USA is higher than almost every other economic union in the world - with exception for developing nations including Brazil, Russia, India and China.

I was merely trying to point out the foolishness of the comment that prison building is the only growth industry.

The U.S. economy is on fire...end of story.

Defecit spending has that effect. Problem is when the party is over. HOw short memories are....

Red river girl,
Ok "they" don't owe us a daycare spot.
"They" are "we"
Then I guess I really me "Me and my tax dollars" don't owe anyone access to daycare. We make it work for us and I expect other family's to make it work for them. Each family who decided to have children is responsible to find or care for there own baby. It is not the taxpayers "responsibility"
Is that more clear?

Washington DC is poor example, the city has the some of the most stringent gun control regulation in the US and has some of the highest crime rates. It is also run differently than most US cities and the administration has been very unresponsive to dealing with issues. As far as crime rates go it is one of the basket cases of the US.

A combination of an aging population, the locking up of career criminals and giving the right for lawful citizens to arm themselves and to defend themselves have together caused significant drops in crime rates in other parts of the US.

If you want to reduce crime, lock up the career criminals and deal with juveniles early on and put them into programs to keep them from going into criminal careers. The problem with the way we treat the kids now is there is very little consequence to their actions and it encourages them to continue down that path.

Mommyinlove, are you going to cover the entire cost of your children's education? Healthcare? or are you going to use public facilities because I don't want my tax dollars going to your family.

What you are in fact advocating is to get rid of government and everyone would be responsible for their own everything, policing, fire protection...

Too many people do not understand, the government is us, we choose to pool resources because this is how we improve all our lives.

You say each person who has a child is responsible to care for their baby and in an ideal world this would be right but death/illness can remove parent(s)from the scene.

There are many things I do not like government spending money on but in a diverse society with many needs, that is how it has to be.

mommyinlove says

Not only is this attitude smacking with self righteous overtones its dead wrong and extremely selfish. In
the real world where most of us live stats Can reports that 75% of households need 2 incomes to live based
on the increased cost of living etc. We pay taxes so we can have services that improve our lives, we like to
see the best bang for the buck so to speak, a universal daycare ( not a 100 tax credit) would allow women to
go to work and pay taxes which in turn raises the tax base to pay for more such programs. It's so nice you
can stay home raising kids but you are the minority , why can we not give tax credits for mom's who stay home and give a major benefit to the majority who need to work.

Every time I hear a conservative talk about "responsibility " I almost gag, we live in a collective society if you
like it or not, I will pay for schools I will never attend, bridges I will never cross, hospitals I will never use etc etc etc but I don't mind because I am Canadian and I give a shi* about my fellow man.

Not take you dirty little 100 bucks (65 after taxes) and go buy Junior a ice cream and feel good aobut yourself.

And Colin I agree with you about addressing root causes, but come on if guns made us safer the US would
be the safest place on earth. Guns should be in the hands of professionals (military , police etc) not in the hands
on scared suburbanites in gated communities and yahoo's . I grew up on a US border town, every month some
loser would shoot someone by mistake etc, for example a Pizza delevery man gets shot because he's asian and he knocked on the wrong door.

Well said Mel,

I keep myself in good shape and have not used a emergency room or doctor in over 5 years but I don't mind
my tax dollars being spent on these things as we become more humane as a society.

Just like I don't mind providing a daycare for a single mom who's husband walked out or died, when we
help others we become more human.

Hey Stuart,
As I mentioned in an earlier post that your obviously didn't read. I am gettting $300/ month right now which will pay for 2 of my kids to go to preschool (a type of chilcare) MY choice of childcare.
Also have a family daycare in my home so I can stay at home and raise my own kids. I am not a "lucky" one who doesn't "have to work". Me and my husband MAKE it work. We don't rely on the gov't (taxpayers) to make it work for us. The widows and single moms you mentioned are doing just fine, they in most cases get %100 subsidy to pay for daycare. I know single moms who get this and I do daycare for a low income family on subsidy as well. They are doing fine and don't need some huge Federal daycare program paid for by us.
As far as the %75 needing two incomes, I don't really buy that as an excuse for a national daycare program either.
Many (not all) families say they "need' 2 incomes, but have 2 cars, eat out, live in expensive homes, put there kids in countless activities, by coffee's everyday, go on vacations, ect so they "have" to go to work. I think that if you really wanted to stay home and not depend on the gov't for daycare you could. By cutting out the fat in your lives, staying on a budget, getting rid of the second car, eliminting vacations and eating out MOST families would be able to live fine thank you on one income until there kids entered school.
As for those who are the working for they get subsidy so they can go to work.
If parents want all the "benifits" of working than let them find there own childcare and leave the taxpayers out of it.

Mommyinlove, you say you make it work without government help. Where do you think those subsidies come from you are touting so highly?

Working Man:

While you are correct - we both know that the massive deficits are due to spending off-shore (in the middle east). While this has a massive impact on the areospace and defense sectors - it has less of an impact at home.

It is not like these deficits are a result of new social programs, new roads, buildings and government employment. I think you overestimate the effect of the deficit spending on the economy.

The economy is piping hot due to several factors including lower interest rates, which increased the number of home equity loans, lower taxes and off-shoring which has resulted in far input costs. Furthermore, there have been significant technological advancements which has vastly increased productivity.

Further, strong commodity prices has led to a massive increase in M&A activity which has spurred the financial sector. Finally, Sarbanes Oxley has increased the demand for high-paid skilled professionals. There are many more lawyers/accountants making a lot of money, which has had a trickle down effect.

So - while I generally respect your comments as pretty objective - I read this as an anti-Bush remark. You refuse to give the guy any credit.

I am not a Bush fan either - I like George Sr. and Raegan. That being said, to say the economy is hot simply because of deficit spending is foolish. I hope you can see that now!

I can't believe the hypocrisy Momyinlove is spewing... I'm alright Jack just as long as I get my childcare credit, just keep the tax payers out anything I don't support.

Ugh.

Mommyinlove is right - this childcare benefit is helping her and is certainly more efficient than setting up a ridiculously bloated, government controlled child care program - which not everybody is going to use.

Verso - I am sorry, but you should be ashamed of your dependence on the government. You are absolutely no role model. Step up, take responsibility.

When will you figure out that the government is not the solution - it is the problem.

Like you would know...

Stuart said it better than I could:

It's called a safety net for a reason, I just hope there will be one there for my kids, should they ever need it.

Verso and Mel...
I don't see any hipocrisy in what I am saying. Subsidy's are there for family's that genuienly need it. Low income families, mainly single moms that genuinly NEED and can't go to work and stay home at the same time.
As far as myself recieving $ from the gov't. A "hand out" as I see it. I would GLADLY return the $, child tax credit and this new $ for childcare in lieu of lower taxes all around. If my hubby wasn't being taxed 50% of his income we would be doing much better off than getting these hand outs every month. I recieve this child care and child tax credit for having small kids. Am I complaining about it? NO. Did I ask or apply for it? NO. Do I "need" it? No. It is part of our budget now so we rely on it. But I don't "Deserve" this $, I don't "expect" the gov't to continue to send my family this $. As I said before if we were able to keep more of our take home pay we would be doing a lot better financially, without depending on the gov't (taxpayers).

Verso (and Stuart):

I am happy to pay taxes for schools, bridges, public hospitals and welfare. Don't give me that crap. We all agree on that. These are all critical areas of society.

The difference is that you and Stu wish to restrict private access to healthcare, implement dozens of non-critical social programs including this child care program. You wish to vastly increase the size of government, tax the heck out of the rich and business and regulate everything.

You lefties don't have a monopoly on the word care.

Capitalism, i wish you wouldn't presume to know what it is I want...

The Conservative Way:

Provide a child care credit, provide a bus rider tax credit, allow youth sports to be tax deductible allow gym memberships to be tax deductible.

The Liberal/NDP Way:

Start up a government funded program and provide universal child care even to those who don't need it, nor wish to use it. Start up a government funded program to promote physical fitness in youth and put together a number of task forces. Finally, initiate a program to promote nutrition and fund a promotional campaign, hand out pamphlets to doctors and again put together a number of task forces.

Don't you see - the Conservatives are providing us with the tools to take care of ourselves, make our own choices and decide how we want to spend our money. The Liberals engage in all types of foolish and inefficient spending.

Now, not everybody has the capability to take care of themselves. We must provide support for these people. However, we need to shift from a society of dependence to a society of self dependence.....

LOL. mommyinlove, The typical selfish self-righteous conservative, please pay for the things I like and screw the things I don't need. Using you own arguments about responsibility etc, why should I pay for your damm kids, why should people with no kids pay for your kids , you had them take some
responsibility. Pay the full cost of their education, elementary and post secondary, full cost the doctor check
ups etc, no child tax credits etc, did you pay your 11,000 per kid to have them. (that's what a uninsured
folk pays in the states) Sorry mommy but I don't like the cold hearted to decide what is needed and what
is not. your name should be mommyinlovewithherself

They used to have means tests for welfare back in the day, they had folks like you have kids take their shirts off to see how skinny a kid was and then decide on if he should get any benefit.

Mommy's prayer
Please lord , pray for our family , me and my son's John and Paul, us four and no more. Lord

mommyinlove

lol It would be funny except you probably are teaching your children this. Sure hope you do end up using the school system that my husband and I pay for even though we don't have children.
And, now that public funds are going to private schools which we do object to, I am actually offended by the use of my dollars. And, lest you think you will home school at no cost to us, think again. All the support and materials the gov't provides, small fee or not comes out of our high taxes.

Wake up.

The woman who has children at your home for daycare has a gov't subsidy that helps you too! It's called the multiplier effect and you are receiving direct benefit from that gov't program (and many other 'socialist' programs)that she probably grovels for in order to receive now that we are in these 'modernized' days of self-righteous sanctimony. Of course these so called 'independent individualists don't believe in the multiplier effect. And, the world is flat.

Ok I have to run but my final argument:
Let me and my hubby support ourselves and our family and we would do just fine thank you. Because we pay so much tax we struggle. We would make more than enough on our own without the handouts to survive. Our older children do attend private school so yes we pay out of pocket for them to go, the gov't isn't paying as much for our children as they would in the public system.
We are more than happy to be taxed for schools, hospitals, roads, parks, rec centers and SOME social programs. The essentials, do we need more programs like daycare. NO!!! Again it would make more sense to tax less, let us keep our hard earned $ and make our own descisions on weather or not we need daycare or not. It is not essensial to have daycare provided for people. School is different. It is essential, it benifits society as a whole to have educated kids. Does it "benifit" society to have our kids in instituted daycares instead of at home with there parents? NO! How foolish to think that it would be of benifit to anyone besides the Public sector union workers who would milk the taxpayer, and the the family's out there who think that the gov't "owes" them everything because they are "Canadian" and we expect to be taken care of like big children.
Have a great day. I'm off to take the kids to the beach.

And, while you're off at the beach with your kids, there are many little kids sitting in a bedbug, cockroach ridden hot apartment with parent/s who have no money and at times no capacity to parent when they could be in a lovely preschool setting getting the language and social skills they will need to stop the cycle of despair they're living in. But, God Forbid. It's not about public sector employees. It's about programs like 'head start' which Bush and co stopped funding. Did you know he also stopped the hot lunch programs for innercity schools. He who dines on filet mignon. It's about conscience, really.

Capitalism,

My original interpretation of your post was that you claimed the U.S. economy to be growing at 5% per quarter. My apologies.

I don't have an intimate knowledge of the drivers behind the U.S. economy at the moment, but it seems to me that a large part of the current U.S. economic growth is due to external factors (e.g. war in iraq = military spending, unstable middle east = high oil prices, high housing prices = greater lending capacity to purchase consumer goods, etc). In other words, there doesn't seem to be a ton of economic creation (vs. apportionment) going on, which has been a major driver of the U.S. economy for a very long time.

But back to childcare...

Why is the automatic assumption from the right (and occasionally the left)that a government program will be bloated and inefficient??? There's absolutely no reason why things have to be this way, and it underscores a major problem with the Canadian public sector at the moment - public sector jobs are viewed by a large number of people as being for "lazy people who want an easy life with a fat pension". If public sector jobs (e.g. teachers, nurses, child care workers) continue to be held in this light, it's going to be even more difficult than it is currently to attract quality people for these jobs, and therefore even more difficult to make them run as smoothly as possible.

For a great exmaple of a well-functioning public child care system, here's a fact sheet on Sweden's system:

http://www.sweden.se/templates/cs/BasicFactsheet____4132.aspx

What's interesting to note is the high level of education and training required of the caregivers, which addresses mommyinlove's concern about stay-at-home parents being the best solution - not that I'm saying they're not the best solution, I just think this is a very good next-best solution.

greenalbertan:

there are a few areas where i agree with the left:

firstly, there are several environmental issues.

secondly, teachers are under paid.

thirdly, nurses are under paid.

However, I don't agree with the teachers/nurses on their philosphies surrounding the administration of each.

I want BC to pay our nurses and teachers better than any other province. I am not concerned about the money that is paid to social workers, teachers, politicians, park rangers and many ministry employees.

What I am concerned about the $20/hour broom sweepers, massive overhead expenditures and excessive employment.

You are right, there is no reason why public sector employees can't be productive and useful. However, we need to get rid of these self-interest unions.

Further, I am concerned that many government functions are treated a political toys and as a result are not operating at their maximum potential...

We have to remove the politics from health care and education.....

I'm not sure if this is the case in BC, but in Alberta the teachers' and nurses' opinions of how to run the system better aren't given much attention. My mother was a teacher, so here's a concrete example:

The government cuts funding for special/high needs classrooms, thus pushing high needs students into regular classrooms. A teacher, who used to have 15 students (i'm using this number just as an example), now has 15 regular students and one high-needs student. But because the high-needs student needs more attention, the teacher spends a disproportionate amount of time with this student, to the detriment of the rest of the class.

In my experience, asking a teacher or nurse how to improve the education/health care systems almost always yields a bunch of easily implementable solutions. The problem is that it's not the teachers that are being given floor time - it's the unions and/or school boards which, while well-intentioned, are too far removed from the "trenches" to provide useful feedback.

This is straying waaaay off topic, but i think it's a useful discussion. We've certainly had no help from the Klein govt here when it comes to health care and education. It sounds like similar things are happening in BC, and I hope you can learn from Alberta's mistakes in these areas.

Capitalism I don't know where you get all business news from national post ? or some other neocon rag. You said US 5% growth better than Canada true I think we were about 2.5%. Reasons for the us growth compared to canada.US Has a labour pool,unlike canada, Canada suffers in growth because of lack of workers not me as a Canadian i get paid really well because of the lack of workers here.More reasons for us growth,arms industry,controll of world oil, and millitary might, Here is a some capitalists beliefs and one of the main reason for us growth low wages=fast growth Example wal-mart opens a new store somewhere every 24 hours why because of low wages and cutting suppliers prices down if they just gave there us employees health insurance maby they could only open one every 72 hours. But that would mean slow growth and would give a banker a heart attack.

redrivegirl;
I am sure you are talking about children in Africa or somewhere where poverty is an issue.
If you are referring to Canada, I take issue.
I am sure there are some examples of your pessimism here, but very rae, compared to everywhere else.
Please bounce your ultuistic passions to the poeple that really need help.
No matter waht we do there will always be screwup's, but there are those that deserve your passion to help poor people, somewhere else.

Capitalism - I've never belonged to to a union in my life but I've heard Jim Sinclair on the radio many times and know he has worked most of his life to improve conditions for the working person and thats makes him ok in my books. You say you can't be bothered to read any part of the article - I'd like to remind you THE SIGN OF A CLOSED MIND - IS CONTEMPT PRIOR TO INVESTIGATION.

Stuart

Actually the US Justice department stated that over 2 million crimes last year were prevented by Armed citizens. Also Florida reports that over 18 years and millions of concealed weapon permits being issued, the rate of convictions for weapons offences in that group was less than ½ of 1%. I now a number of US citizens and a couple of Canadians that carry and they are very law abiding and take the responsibility seriously.

If you can train a citizen to fly a 747, a 10,000 DWT ship you can easily train them to carry a gun responsibly. In fact if you watched some of the police handling firearms you might have serious doubts about letting them carry them. Many have received very poor training and have no interest in becoming more proficient.

Why do spelling and grammar errors immediately become apparent between that short pause between hitting submit and it being posted, now = knowing, sorry

Hey Colin

Just the stats,

Germany, 381 gun murders.
France, 255 gun murders.
Canada, 165 gun murders.
UK, 68 gun murders.
Australia, 65 gun murders.
Japan, 39 gun murders.
U.S., 11,127 gun murders.

Yes some folks are going to be responsible but allot will not be, more access to firearms = More stupid
people with guns = more murders = more need for conservative types to build prisons and rally their
base of gun nuts.

I can go south of the line to a flea market today and buy an auto matic rifle and buy a ton of ammo at my local Wal - Mart . Everyone anywhere knows the US justice system and gun laws are a joke. Not only is the US good
at arming it's own citizens its the # 1 arms dealer around the world. The UK is pissed now that the navy
was refueling with bunker busters at their air base, we have Condi talking trash while the US is delivering fresh bunker busters to Israel . What a hypocrite. But Many Canadians wish and pray one day we become more like the empire , I know Herr Harper does.
.

I said it earlier in this post and Ill say it again, if the USA is so crappy why then are there so many people from all over the world queuing in line, in order to live and make the their home in the states? Many more than those wishing to come here.
And no I have, no desire what so ever to live in the states, Im only pointing out a well known fact

This is a fascinating thread, but much of the discussion seems to consist of ad hominem attacks rather than a reasoned response to the article. (I realise that this is not unusual.)

I suppose I will be labelled a "lefty" for saying this, but it would be interesting if those violently opposed to this article's conclusions would back up their assertions by rebutting the article's content. The points given seem to me to be well supported.

It's a bit of both I think; get tougher on crime and improve the help for those disadvantaged.

BUT, for those of us living in urban areas, fed up with the thieves and degenerates, throwing a few of thier asses in the can for a long time won't actually hurt either. Many of our social engineers, like Mr Sinclair, seem to forget most criminals are simply bad people and it ISN'T societies fault for the path they have choosen in life.

More help for those who truly need it and more prisons for those who need that.

Chilled ,
what I do think is that some folks are inherently stupid as you have proven by your comments.
Please don't have kids or get in the way of useful , well intentioned people. Go have a another beer
and stop hurting your brain.

Their just evil momma, they are from the devil, poverty , background circumstances , race, status
and all other factors mean nothing, Their just evil momma,

mommyinlove:

If $100 a month (- income tax) is all someone needs to stay home and look after their child, great.

But most people earn more than $100 per month, and need that money to pay the rent/mortgage, pay bills, buy food, and all that other good stuff.

In most families where both parents work, there combined salaries equal the salary of families where only one parent works. Why? Because in most cases, the two- parents-working families have lower paying jobs. Remember, we're not all lucky enough to be married to a professional person or a manager.

And that's not even discussing single parent families.

Face it, many families need child care facilities - like the ones who entrust their children to you, mommyinlove. Why are you scorning your own customers? Why ignore that there are many more people who need access to a daycare and don't have the option of dropping their children off at your door, because neither you nor anyone else has the available spaces?

"most criminals are simply bad people and it ISN'T societies fault for the path they have choosen in life."

Spoken like a true ignoramus. Take a few social science courses before you start shooting your mouth off with your 12th Century prejudices. Learn something about social problems! Read!Talk to people who know something other than hate-filled far-right ideologues. Grow up for God sake!

-a family in the 50% income tax bracket won t qualify for a child tax benifit and people do need to apply for a child tax benifit. I am starting to think that is type of feeling is the very reason we do need social programs from our governments. Some of the help I would like to see is when you buy some thing for your kids or your self buy some some thing for some outside your house too buying swimming lessons? buy another set for someone you dont know

Deanna; before you have any more children, get a game plan. A money truck isn't ever going to come to your house. You have to go out and chase it.
If you are disabled or a special needs person, what I am saying is redundant.

Stuart
Start looking at all the crime stats, UK totally banned guns, yet crime is going up and the UK police recently admited to not reporting all crime, they would lump a bunch of B&E's as one to keep the stats down as one example. Now they want a ban on knives, then bats, then rolling pins, nerf balls, etc

Colin said: " In fact if you watched some of the police handling firearms you might have serious doubts about letting them carry them. Many have received very poor training and have no interest in becoming more proficient".

That is a truth Colin, thanks. I have competed with many para and military people, and yes, their accuracy and instincts often are below average. The thing one needs to consider is that these competitors are people who are making an effort to improve, so good on them I say. What about the police people who do not practise?? They must get an almost debilitating adrenallin dump just thinking about drawing their FA's in an intense situation.

Adrenallin dumps are not a bad thing, but training to handle ones self under these conditions is essential to owning a FA and to 'life' really...especially because lives depend on it.

I have said it before, but FA's are not the problem, it is a social problem. Colin is rightly, all over this. The weapon (what ever is randomly\specifically selected) is simply an extension of the heart of the person using it.

It is a slippery path to ban guns. The next thing to be banned is, as Colin said, knives, and then rope just in case someone kills someone from strangulation, then perhaps the right hand will be chopped off because someone beat someone to death with their fist.

I do believe however, if one pocesses a FA, the legal follow up must be training to the highest level.

The Austrailian Government banned certain FA's about 8 years ago. Since taking the FA's out of the hands of honest, law-abiding citizens, the crime rate has gone way up. Crimanals laugh at this action by the Austrailian government, as they would the efforts of the Canadian government to control FA;s in our country. Colin may be able to expand on this.

A social problem not a FA problem...

Peace all

RTB

If FA's were the problem , Switzerland would be the murder capital of the world. Crime is caused by social problems not guns, and how criminals react - with extreme violence or not - is also in large measure related to cultural aspects. No, I am not in favor of any yahoo having an FA, or the bizarre level it can get to in the States - See Bowling For Columbine - but lets keep the whole thing in perspective

Stuart
I checked the laws, which vary from state to state, if you pass the background checks, get approval from the BATF and local police, wait 3 month, pump a wad of cash, have clean record, you then be allowed to buy a Full auto if the state you are in allows it, since no new full auto is allowed since 1986, be prepared to spend a lot of cash and then you can only fire it at certain places.

Hey Deanna,
Acually I am married to a tradesman.
Not a proffesional. He makes good $ not great $. We make it work by living on a budget, owning one vehicle and living in a modest home.
I do daycare to supliment our income. We are not rich but we do fine thank you.
Our children thrive under our care and are happy, secure children who have been given the gift of growing up at home, not in a daycare facility.
We don't "need" the $100 a month per child, just like we don't "need" a fed daycare program.

Mommylovesherself :
Liar!liar pants on fire !
There is no way in hell you are are paying 50% taxes.
The highest federal tax rate is 29% .Over $115,000.
And then there are deductions from that .
If you are paying 50% you have an idiot for a tax preparer .
Nice try you neo-con twit .

Have you ever heard of the celebration in May where the average Canadian finally starts working for themselves. The first 5 months goes to paying taxes. This may not be the case for you Hannial as you may not be paying much in taxes and are just leatching off off some social program payed for by the rest of us Over-taxed Canadians. How wonderful for you to pay so little tax. The rest of us get to work for 12 months out of the year and keep a little over half our pay.
Have a wonderful weekend and please try to keep your childish rymes and rude labols like "twit" and "idiot" to yourself. You remind me of the kids I teach all day to "speak nice" to one another, even if you may disagree.

The celebration you refer to is no longer in May. It is in late June or July. Someone will correct me if I am wrong. The date seems to change each year and not for the good.

I do wish I didn't have such an aversion to spelling errors. It would be rhymes, labels and leaching, moommyinlove.

I don't understand why you don't want a national daycare program. Are you afraid, as a provider, you wouldn't be able to meet the standards they would set?

Canada’s Tax Freedom Day in 2006 fell on the 170th day of the year, June 19, as estimated by the Fraser Institute ([3]). The Fraser Institute also includes a “Personal Tax Freedom Day Calculator” that estimates a customized Tax Freedom Day based on additional variables such as age of household head, sex of household head, marital status and number of children. However, the Fraser Institute's figures have been disputed. For example, a 2002 study by Osgoode Hall Law Professor Neil Brooks argues the Fraser Institute's Tax Freedom Day analysis includes flawed accounting, including the exclusion of several important forms of income and overstating tax figures, moving the date nearly two months later.
Just like your logic the formula is totally flawed.
If,as you say,you run a Daycare center than you are entitled to a ton of deductions including groceries .
You don't say whether yor old man is self employed or not .
If he is he also has a ton of deductions.
Get a grip lady .
You are a no nothing typically blind neo-con with nothing to contribute to society .

Dear Hannibal,
How sad your life may be to keep with your childish ignorant comments and cheap shots. I truly wish you happiness in your life and hope that you find peace, love, understanding and eternal happiness. You need to run others down to make youself feel better? To feel superior to others? You truly remind me of a toddler who throws a tantrum, screaming and yelling, looking foolish the whole time. Take a breath, calm down and don't get too worked up about me.
There are many like me out there that you won't be able to run down or away.
I look forward to debating with any others in a respectful way.
Have a wonderful weekend.

Hit the nail one th head with that one Aalborg!
Well done .
For someone who claims to pay 50% in income tax you would think they would have the meaningless date tatooed on their forearm .

Hey Aalborg,
Honestly i make penuts doing daycare from Home. I can't believe people have the nerve to complain about how "expensive" daycare is and then pay on average $3 a hour for there child to be in care. Yes I have right-off's but i never get $ back at tax time. I basicley break even at the end of the year. I do daycare because I love kids. As a service to the family's who babies I care for. Also because the small amount I make pays for my own kids to go to the school I chose.
If there were a national program it would not effect my home daycare at all. I am licenced and that wouldn't change.
I don't want a national daycare because I would rather see that $ go towards education, medical care, parks, or more subsidy's for low income family's. I for the life of me can't understand why anyone who has kids thinks that it is OK to expect anyone else to take care of them. Seriously, they are YOUR kids, you had them so RAISE them yourself or if you must find someone to do it for you.
It is not the taxpayers responsibilty to provide parents with cheap daycare.
We as taxpayers have enough on our plates without adding more programs.
Finally my husband who makes the bulk of our income is a tradesman, Not self employed, and is taxed up the ying yang.

I really don't think you are doing any child in your care a favour. If you are so adamantly opposed to the concept of daycare, then why do you do this job? Your attitude would make you highly undesirable to me if I was looking for a daycare provider. You are just using other's children as a means to an end. Paying for your kid's schooling would be an example. I bet that would be an evangelical christian school too! So quit with the I love babies rant and take some night courses in basic spelling.

For Mommylovesherself:
Too right Aalborg.I was going to mention that very thing .
Not even basic queens english.
Intrusted for entrusted.
Right offs for write offs .
Horrible grammar and syntax .

Lady you have no business taking care of oher people's children. Period.

Mommyinlove....Every citizen of this country is taxed "up the ying yang." You are not unique in this regard. Many citizens do not resent paying those tax dollars. They do resent, though,those same dollars being pissed away and not providing the social programs they believe make their society a better place to live. We don't all believe in the survival of the fittest philosophy. We are more evolved and recognize that every society has some who are less fortunate. We want to provide the means so those citizens can have the same rights. A helping hand. I don't understand why the evangelical amongst us don't "get that" simple fact. It's right there in the Bible.

Excellent article Mr. Sinclair, I very much agree.

I would also like to add that more emphasis should be put on early childhood education from birth to age 5. It is great that mommyinlove can adequately care for her children, unfortunatly mommyinthesack, mommyondrugs, mommyinthesauce and mommyinbusiness quite often are so overwhelmed by the whole birthing process that in turn leads into diaper changing and feeding schedules that they do not think about the importance of education at such an early age.
These years a crucial!!
Hooray for the moms (AND DADS) that can stay at home and raise their kids.

But even the mommy’s and daddysinlove could benefit from a proven infant education program.

And yes, I do not mind my tax dollars going to social programs that work to keep a moral and just society. I do mind my tax dollars going to a band-aid solution like jails and not concentrating on getting to the root of the problems.

So mommyinlove, remember, your tax dollar rhetoric does not speak for all of us. Oh yes, one more thing, your kids are not adults yet...don't count your chicks before they hatch, Harper does want to fill those chicken coops.

And Mommylovesherself totally ignores Neets dilemma of not having space for a 'special needs'child .
This tells me that such spaces,in all likelihood,do not exist .
Neets is to be applauded for trying to better her life for herself and her child by going to school .
The $100.00,per month doesn't even begin to pay for that kind of care .
MLH also assumes that Neets child will be able to attend at a regular school .

Totally missing the point .
Thank God the neo's will be tossed on the scrap heap of failed goverments the next election .
I am convinced that the Liberal's are fully prepared to put billions of dollars into early childhood development .
Then perhaps Neets will have a tad less stress in her life as will all who can appreciate the need for a nationa; daycare program .

"Thank God the neo's will be tossed on the scrap heap of failed governments the next election."

I wish I was as sure of this fact as you are Hannibal. I am losing hope. The dumb and dumber are way more powerful than I would have ever believed. Not powerful in the true sense of the word, but in greater numbers than I believed could be possible. Sure, in the US it isn't a surprise, but I am shocked at our own home grown versions. I knew bringing fuxxsnooze across the border would be the decline of Canadian society. Since Jan. 23 they have been coming out of the woodwork in droves. Didn't have the courage of their convictions before the election but seem very convinced they now have the answers and the rest of us haven't seen the light. Of course that light is held by harpo and has the neo-cons caught like a deer in headlights. As in the US, ours are walking the slow march of the soulless towards the light held by a man who has such contempt for them all the while knowing they don't have the mental capability to figure that out. So he will continue to pull the rug out from under them and create the kind of society he has been dreaming of for who knows how long. I really do believe the number of sheep in Canada outweigh the number of free-thinking individuals who want a moral, just society. I am discouraged. How can one possibly debate with a mommyinlove type? Or any of the others who frequent this site. Closed minds and low IQ's do not lead to good debates.

Aalborg I am sure that the latest polls should be heartening .
Harpo has lost his lead in Quebec and the Liberal's who are leaderless/rudderless have a ten point advantage in Ontario.
Ground Zero for any government .
Remember hoe the polls went last time.
Predicted a neo majority and it didn't happen .
Harpo has pissed off so many people in his own party that it is enevitable,in my belief,that the Liberal's will be returned with a majority .
Canadians are furious with the moron for aligining us with America Inc .
Cheer up come the fall the idiot has declared a showdown on the Softwood agreemnet saying it will be a confidence vote .
Bob Rae will call his bluff and force him to collapse his government(?)
ensuring that minimal damage will be done to the greatest country on the planet .
Keep your eyes peeled for further developments .

I have been taking a rest from the news and my magazines are piling up at an alarming rate. I am usually a news junkie but haven't had the stomach for it in the last couple of months. It is a complete turn-around for me and I am amazed by this. Nevertheless, I am happy to hear our bush wannabe is dropping in Quebec and Ontario. May the trend continue and put him and the garbage can he rode in on, back where they belong. As a sad footnote in Canadian history. The liberals have to elect a leader earlier than Dec. though. If harpo has a confidence vote on softwood in the fall and the libs are leaderless, what then? I'm not holding my breath here. I think harpo will be back with another minority and we will sink further into the abyss.

Aalborg the Liberal's have a contingeny plan for just such an occurenece .
They have already moved on electing various people to the ridings .
A Chinese lady,Wendy Yuan, is running against Emerson in Vancouver-Kingsway .
No,the Liberal's will be fully prepared for an election call.
I don't think Harpo has the guts to call an election at this point .
All his momentum is gone and he has done nothing on the health care file nor the enviornment two issues that strongly resonate with the electorate .
I too became discouraged with the news but when I heard the latest Decima poll I cheered right up .
Leger was also a ray of sunshine.
http://www.legermarketing.com/eng/

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060727/conservatives_poll_060727/20060728?hub=Politics

WHAT A STUPID FUCKING BUNCH OF SOCIALIST BASTARDS OR BC CONSERVATIVES YOU ARE. (Definition of a BC Conservative? One who moves back in with mom and dad when the economy once again tanks.)

Hannibal...thanks for the links and the explanations. I can't personally find anyone who voted for harpo or will admit to it, but I do hear a lot of unhappy grumbling about various issues. The Afghan war seems to be a big one. So hopefully harpo will realize it would be unwise to have a confidence vote in the fall as he has done nothing but piss off a lot of people. Then again, the US is having elections in November. Maybe harpo will have a confidence vote before that time in case they go democrat, which is what their polls are predicting. That could sink his little ship. When did Canadians get so stupid that they would elect the only man left in the world who would align himself with bushit? And take him birthday presents! Harpo is such a reject. I don't know how he can hold his head up.

http://searcht.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=klu+klux+klan&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Da7053faecfd29a95%26clickedItemRank%3D3%26userQuery%3Dklu%2Bklux%2Bklan%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk%252FUSAkkk.htm%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSBoom%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk%2FUSAkkk.htm

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http://searcht.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=world+church+of+the+creator&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Db6db66bcf64b10d3%26clickedItemRank%3D2%26userQuery%3Dworld%2Bchurch%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bcreator%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.adl.org%252Fbackgrounders%252Fwcotc.asp%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSBoom%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.adl.org%2Fbackgrounders%2Fwcotc.asp

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Yea, generally you need a spine to hold your head up and all Harpo has is spaghetti where one should be .
Yes, it does look as though the Americans are sick to death of the Neo-Nazi regime now in power and may toss the miscreants out.
One can only hope .
Harpo is a philthy sycophant and America lover who hasn't a clue what a real Canadian is .
It is no wonder the country has turned hard right as this is nothing more than Reform/Alliance with a new paint job .
He certaily has pissed off a lot of people.
I am hoping that they hold off until tax season when people will realize they got screwed once again .
Quebec is already hip to the bozo and they just strung him along letting him believe he had a chance at a majority.
Too bad so sad for the moron .

It has always been so patently obvious that harpo is just recycling the reform/alliance load of nonsense. Calling it conservative is an insult to the true conservatives. Not that I've ever been one but I do feel for those who are and now have this sad-ass excuse as a "leader".

I haven't had time to post to your links, but I will. If I'm not being too much of a pain can you explain how Quebec wised up to this guy and just strung him along? This is the only good news I've heard for awhile.

I was just in Kelowna as my daughter recently moved there. Close to her house is a big billboard of Stockwell Day welcoming visitors to the Okanogan. I couldn't believe it! I've never seen billboards of politicians before. I told my daughter to not forget what she has been taught and phone me before the next election to get the name of the right candidate! If I could I'd move her back to Victoria! Spooky... looking at that grinning fool on a billboard of all places. Then I had to go on to Calgary where my parents live in harpo's riding. Much to their horror I might add! There are no billboards of harpo which is a good thing. Kelowna really should remove that billboard. Talk about tacky.

Re: Combined with enlightened drug laws that deal with the medical consequences of addictions, these are tried and true recipes for safe societies.

We need to legalize and regulate all drugs.

Prohibition does not work.

Do not follow the USA. They are lost.

Herb

Educators For Sensible Drug Policy: http://www.efsdp.org

-----------------

"The stated goals of current U.S.drug policy -- reducing crime, drug addiction, and juvenile drug use -- have not been achieved, even after nearly four decades of a policy of "war on drugs". This policy, fueled by over a trillion of our tax dollars has had little or no effect on the levels of drug addiction among our fellow citizens, but has instead resulted in a tremendous increase in crime and in the numbers of Americans in our prisons and jails. With 4.6% of the world's population, America today has 22.5% of the worlds prisoners. But, after all that time, after all the destroyed lives and after all the wasted resources, prohibited drugs today are cheaper, stronger, and easier to get than they were thirty-five years ago at the beginning of the so-called "war on drugs".

-Law Eforcement Against Prohibition

Watch the LEAP promotional video:

http://leap.cc/audiovideo/LEAPpromo.htm

Aalborg the last series of links were aimed at Chilled .
I figured he'd be a lot happier hanging with the rednecks than with us socialists(?!)
Too funny! Was Doris portrayed on that stupid jet ski on the billboard ?
That is frightening .
Guess they don't care who's kids they scare.

Herb
I'm with you 100% on this issue .

I'm an old Vic boy myself .Grew up near the Hillside mall .
Yea, re-cycled Reform policies filtered through the Fraser Institute and the Calgary School. Oooo! Lucky us .
Racists like Tom Flanagan pulling Harpo's strings no wonder the Kelowna accord got the axe .
Yea,Doris thinks the Flintstones was a documentary and actually believes man walked with the dinosaurs.Idiot!

Oh,right.
Quebec is adamantly opposed to the mission in Afghanistan 65% at the last polling.
And now Harpo's insane stance on Israel's"Measured response"
Approximately 200,000 Lebanese live in Quebec .
They got a seat on UNSESCO which they have wanted for years .
For all his playing position it will do no good unless Charest forms another government which isn't likely to happen .
Quebec is a master of manipulation and they have Harpo right where they want him .
They will take all he has to offer and re-elect the separtists en masse .

I've got an idea. How about all you pro criminal posters, volunteer to house convicted criminals during their sentence.
You look after them.
In fact, why not take some future criminal , off the streets into your house now.
Oops, I forgot, you must be a Public Sector worker, doing it on a volunteer basis.

Just for you IAMC

Poll suggests Tory fortunes fading
Jul. 27, 2006. 04:47 PM
CANADIAN PRESS

OTTAWA — A new poll suggests Stephen Harper's post-election surge in popularity has dissipated and dimmed his chances of turning his minority government into a majority.

The prime minister's Conservatives lost ground in the country's two crucial battlegrounds, Ontario and Quebec, according to the Decima poll made exclusively available to The Canadian Press.

The Decima results arrive like a bucket of ice water amid fevered speculation that Harper will try to engineer the defeat of his government this fall over the softwood lumber deal.

Harper has said the agreement, aimed at ending the longstanding softwood trade dispute with the United States, will be put to a vote in House of Commons in October. He has declared it will be a confidence vote, meaning the government will fall if a majority of MPs vote against the deal.

All three opposition parties have declared their opposition to the deal. And one Liberal leadership contender, Bob Rae, has dared Harper to call an early election over it.

The Liberals, afraid that Harper will pull the plug before they elect a new leader Dec. 3, have prepared contingency plans to accelerate the leadership selection process. And they've begun nominating candidates without waiting for a new leader to put his or her stamp on the election team.

But Decima Research CEO Bruce Anderson said all parties might want to cool their campaign jets.

The poll suggests a snap fall election wouldn't be in any party's interests, with the possible exception of the separatist Bloc Quebecois, and would produce virtually identical results to last January's vote.

"As debate heats up about a possible fall election, these patterns might argue caution for the Conservatives, caution for the Liberals and caution for the NDP," Anderson said.

"Arguably, they might create some modest bullishness for the BQ, but only compared to the kind of results they were looking at a few months ago."

The telephone survey of 1,009 Canadians was conducted July 20-23, amid controversy over Harper's unequivocal support for Israel's bombardment of Lebanon despite the rising civilian death toll.

The Conservatives also came in for severe criticism for their initial response to the chaotic evacuation of Canadians fleeing Lebanon.

A sample this size is considered accurate within plus or minus 3.1 percentage points 19 times in 20.

Decima found support for all the parties had returned to almost exactly the same levels that produced the Conservative minority last January.

Nationally, the Conservatives had the support of 36 per cent, the Liberals 30 per cent and the New Democrats 17 per cent.

In the two provinces that will determine whether Harper can turn his minority into a majority, the Conservatives had lost the ground they gained during a post-election honeymoon.

In Quebec, the province Harper has wooed most assiduously, the poll found the BQ had rebounded to 43 per cent, up five points since a Decima poll in May, while the Tories had slipped six points to 23 per cent. The Liberals had 18 per cent and the NDP eight per cent.

And in Ontario, where the Tories and Liberals had been neck and neck as recently as mid-June, the poll found the Liberals had pulled into a nine-point lead with 43 per cent support, compared to 33 per cent for the Conservatives and 18 per cent for the NDP.

"These patterns suggest that some recovery of the Liberal brand may be underway in Ontario and also that the Conservative momentum in Quebec has reversed, at least for the time being," Anderson said.

Given the high profile of the Middle East conflict, Anderson said: "It's reasonable to speculate that some of the softening of Conservative support, at least in Quebec, may be linked to Canada's alignment with the U.S. foreign policy (on Israel), coupled with major investments in military capabilities."

Quebecers traditionally tend to be more pacifist than Canadians elsewhere.

Hey again Hannibal,
Sorry you find my spelling so troublesome but most of the time I am typing one handed with a babe on my lap so proofreading with a pocket dictionary is a luxery I don't have.
It seems that yourself you have much time on your hand, no job? To catch and proofread my posts. What a good boy! You must be so proud of yourself!
Sorry to burst your bubble but there are many Canadians out there who happen to respect, and admire Steven Harper and are THRILLED to have a PM in power with a back bone. For MANY of us he is a breath of fresh air in politics after nearly a decade of financial corruption and moral decay. If you think that we will simply be overturned to the leaderless, stand-for-all-yet-nothing Liberals next election you are saldly mistaken. Oh how happy we all were to see Mr Harper defete Paul Martin.
The Conservitive party of Canada is going strong and we will continue to dominate into the next election.
Have a wonderful evening.

I think Hannibal has worked longer than you've been alive, Mommyinlove. And paid a whole lot more in taxes than you could even dream of.

You didn't read the post by G West which would set you straight in regards to where your party is in the polls right now? Heading down in Ontario and Quebec. Imagination that! Considering those two provinces decide which government will lead, I wouldn't do too much of a happy dance just yet, if I were you.

You don't need a dictionary for simple words like luxury and defeat. Well, maybe YOU do. But harpo has you and the others like yourself, right where he wants you. Semi-literate and embracing with fervour all the gargbage that comes out of his mouth. See, when you can't read, you can't figure things out and you certainly can't debate.

Doris Day was in a suit and it was a head/shoulder shot. It's that looney-tune grin with the blank eyes that is so disconcerting! Isn't Riverview still operational? He looks as if he needs a stint in there.

Forgot to add for mommyinlove's sake....if you really are a conservative, then look closely at the spelling of that word. Then look back at your own spelling. Not being able to spell correctly your own party name must be humiliating.

Thanks for that aalborg.

I was also wondering if the impressionable mommyinlove was aware that the 'brave' Mr Harper also relies on RCMP heavies to keep independent minded journalists from blurting out embarrassing questions.

Here are the details, if she's interested:

Big Man that Pee Wee Rambo.

Why does this STILL surprise me? Could harpo be any more obvious in his hero worship of bushit? I don't believe harpo has ever had an original thought. Who are the Canadians proud of a PM who hides behind cops and CRAP geeks and squeals like a school kid when the bully gets to close to him?harpo, his belief system, his 'style' and his panting after bush is beneath contempt.

We seem to have strayed somewhat from the origional story line. maybe it's a good thing but maybe it sort of muddies the water. Prisons are expensive, some are necessary as some of the convicts will never be rehabilitated. But it's a bit short of any serious thinking to simply throw a person in the can for a very long time for many property crimes.

There does seem to be a growing need for security around some political figures. Wonder why that is? Is it because they fear being asked things?

to mommyinlovewithherselfandtohellwiththerestoftheriffraff,

I harpo has a backbone, as you say and describe as a breath of fresh air, then why is it that he won't allow the press to asked their own questions?

To hannibal, thank you. Mommyinlove seems to miss the obvious. FYI- my child is home schooled- I was tired of being told there was something "wrong" with him, when he could sit in a university classroom and ask appropriate questions to the material, at 5 years of age. As recommended by the "professionals" my child will enter school on a part time basis this fall for non-academic portion of the school day. Since I have no faith in the school system's ability to actually “teach” instead of facilitate, I will still teach the basics at home.
Back to the original thread, for DPL, yes more prisons is a dumb idea. I too have no problem incarcerating the “incurables”, but for drug offences, and minor social crimes, people should not be jailed. As for IAMC- have you tried to do anything for your fellow human? Do you help the homeless people? How about the drug addicted? I have brought these people into my home and helped them achieve some dignity. The current laws in BC make it almost impossible for a homeless person to get basic social assistance, if you’re not hooked on some kind of drug. The crackheads I know get welfare much faster then a down and out homeless person, and the average crack sex trade person can make at least $500 day free and clear without paying taxes. Is this fair? No, especially since most people I know with master’s degrees and such can’t make $500 day after taxes. Do I begrudge this person? No, I miss her terribly and wish she would finally make the choice to get off the street. And YES- I have offered my home to this person. IAMC- most “criminals” are not dangerous, and are ordinary people, who just happen to not conform to the outdated laws of this country. As stated above, the war on drugs has not worked, it’s time to try something else. Neets

Helo Neets :
Your little fella sounds exceedingly bright.
Do not accept somebody elses assessment of him .
My mother taught me to read and write as the system was incapable of doing so .
Many hours of flash- cards and trips to the library .
I learned to love the written word and the English language .
If one can read and comprehend then the world becomes their oyster .
Nothing wrong with home schooling at all.
It is a wonderful alternative .
I am ,though, beginning to wonder if there are any Conservative supporters out there with a higher than grade six education.

Welcome back G . Missed your writing and your take on issues .

Aalborg if Harpo had a thought it would die a lonely death .
Hard to believe a grown up could believe in this day and age that the planet is only 6,000 ,years old .
Doris is a fightening caricature of a human.
Mommylovesherself I guess you are incapable of comprehending the tides of fortune that befall the neo-Nazi's .
They are tanking in the polls .
There are almost one million Canadians of Arab descent living here and only 250,000,
Israeli's.
The Arab community alone can control over 55,ridings, seven in Montreal .
Nope its back to the opposition for the Barnum & Bailey party-All clowns .

I have a university education! I took education through Camosun and Uvic. Got good grades too! I am also a product of full time daycare and public school.
Oh Yes, I finally feel now like a proud Canadian with a PM in power I respect and agree with. We just got a new Canadian flag in front of our house.
Its a beautiful thing. For many years under the old liberal gov't I almost questioned taking our flag down. I was ashamed watching the last 2 PM's fumble around on the news trying to represent Canadian. No more! For me and MANY others we are truly proud Canadians once again.
I am off to the park with the kids. Hopefully the rest of you pessimists can go outside and enjoy this beautiful counry we are privilaged to call "home"

The war on drugs, educational standards and lack of social programs have set the US so far back they don't know which way is up. Pooprah was just on TV jumping on the Time magazine and Bill/Melinda Gates bandwagon in regards to the new lows the US has achieved in educational standards. It then follows that the jails are stacked to the rafters with uneducated people who will never see the light of day. They will never be given a chance at rehabilitation and will be continually viewed as less than human. Sure, some of them are, but I'm willing to bet the majority aren't. We are seeing the decline in educational standards in this country and those will continue to fall. If harpo has his way our jails will be stacked with people who never had a choice or a chance. Some holier than thou politician would rather spend education funding somewhere else, rather than confront the problem and deal with it. With the likes of harpo and his gang in Ottawa we are going to sink to lows never before seen in Canada. We see it in the US but the dumb among us continue to bleat that harpo is a breath of fresh air and a fine upstanding citizen, blah, blah and more blah. That they can't see the big picture will be to our detriment as a decent society.

Oh! My! God! mommyinlove....can you try and lose the exclamation marks? I hate to burst your little bubble but if you do indeed have a university education then my point about the decline in educational standards, stands. Why does it not surprise me you fly the flag in your front yard? In this beautiful country we spell privileged....that way. Take some spelling lesson, please. There's also a cute! little website called, proudtobecanadian.com. I think you could find a new nesting place there. They fly flags and beat their chests and spell just like you. Try it and give the rest of us a break.

ROTFLMAO Aalborg.
Too funny.
Yea, if I was Mommylovesherself I would sue both Camosun and Uvic for providing a sub-standard education .
With as many dumb and obvious spelling mistakes that she makes here I wonder what her written reports looked like .
Doesn't spelling count in university anymore ?
It,really,figures Mommy loves Stevey they are both moronic imbeciles .

Here ya go Mommy .
http://searcht.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=proudtobecanadian&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D527ac4ab67a0c5b1%26clickedItemRank%3D1%26userQuery%3Dproudtobecanadian%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.proudtobecanadian.ca%252F%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPResultsT%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.proudtobecanadian.ca%2F
Now take off the adults are trying to talk.

Yea, Mommy we know welfare Wednsday was last week .

http://searcht.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=minimum+sentencing&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D225d130db6560fa5%26clickedItemRank%3D2%26userQuery%3Dminimum%2Bsentencing%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.rand.org%252Fpubs%252Fresearch_briefs%252FRB6003%252Findex1.html%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPSuggestion%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rand.org%2Fpubs%2Fresearch_briefs%2FRB6003%2Findex1.html

Interesting reading.
http://searcht.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=minimum+sentencing&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D225d130db6560fa5%26clickedItemRank%3D5%26userQuery%3Dminimum%2Bsentencing%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.cnn.com%252FUS%252F9705%252F12%252Fmandatory.sentencing%252F%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPSuggestion%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2FUS%2F9705%2F12%2Fmandatory.sentencing%2F

Hannibal,
Thanks for the link to "proudtobecanadian"
I acually have been on site before but I find it a lot more fun on this site ruffling lefties feathers than preaching to the choir like on the other site. When I wrote papers at uvic I had something called SPELLCHECK that did the proofreading for me. How tedious your life must be to search for grammer mistakes in peoples posts. If this wets your wistle so much maybe you could get a job being an editor for the Tyee since you seem to spend an awful lot of time here. I need to run again, I have a life you know that doesn't revolve around name calling, spellchecking and scratching other peoples balls that think like I do. It takes a lot more guts to get out and live life and live and SPEAK what you believe each and every day. Sitting at a computer all day cutting and pasting links to speak for yourself, while cutting people down seems like a sad and miserable way to live. Again I wish you all the best. I look forward to debating on this board a little more, but I look even more forward to spending time at home with my family and friends, and helping out in the community when I am given the chance.
Have a super wonderful evening!!!!
I know I will,
Love mommyinlovewithlifefamilyandcanada

Ya know mommywhoisn'tverysmart, it wasn't Hannibal who directed you to the proudtobecanadian website. Your comprehension skills are just as atrocious as your spelling. The errors you make, are so blatantly obvious, they jump off the page.

If you're looking after other people's children for a living it's fucking amazing how much time you spend on here. Got the little ones parked in front of the TV while you post? Yeah, I thought so.

One more thing for my daughter to ask when interviewing childcare providers. What party do you vote for? She'll have to be careful in Stockwell's riding. I'll tell her to be wary of homes with flags flying out front.

aalborg,
Tsk tsk, a wee bit defensive are we?
Your friend Hannibal ALSO posted a direct link to the site you mentioned to me. So YOU I guess are the one lacking comprehension skills not I.
I am on holidays from daycare during the summer so please don't keep yourself up worrying about the babes in my care. My own children LOVE being home and play beautifuly during the days.
Also a peice of advice for your own precious daughter. Instead of encouraging her to farm her own darling babies out to others to raise, suggest that she be the MOM and raise them HERSELF?
Watch your mouth by the way.
Swearing is rude. Didn't your own mother teach you any manners?
Finally Conservative all the way baby!!!

Yea, Aalborg hard to believe there are that many dummies in the Okanagan who actually voted for"Yep,the earth is only six thousand years old" Doris Day .
I still don't believe a word out of Mommy's mouth .Relying on a mechanical construct instead of a brain seems like a cop-out to me .
Don't worry Mommy you will soon be ignored or tossed in the twit bin with the likes of Clueless,Elliot,Neo con and a host of other goofs who inhabit this board .
When no one responds to your idiocy it is time to take off .
I am already there .
You have nothing but stupidity to add to the dialouge .
So buh,bye.Twit .

Here ya' go Mommy.
More links to interact with your ilk .
http://searcht.netscape.com/ns/boom...%2FUSAk kk.htm

http://searcht.netscape.com/ns/boom...ww.k-k-k.com%2F

http://searcht.netscape.com/ns/boom...s%2Fwcotc. asp

http://searcht.netscape.com/ns/boom...s%2Fhale.htm l

http://www.wckkkk.com/index2.html
http://www.natall.com/
http://www.nukeisrael.com/whitepowerflyers.htm
http://www.nukeisrael.com/hhroadsign.htm

Enjoy Mommy. Your ilk is well represented .

Quotes from the shrubbery.

"If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier - so long as I'm the dictator." -George W. Bush, Dec. 19, 2000

"I'm hopeful. I know there is a lot of ambition in Washington, obviously. But I hope the ambitious realize that they are more likely to succeed with success as opposed to failure." -George W. Bush, Jan. 2001

"The California crunch really is the result of not enough power-generating plants and then not enough power to power the power of generating plants." -George W. Bush, Jan. 2001

"I want it to be said that the Bush administration was a results-oriented administration, because I believe the results of focusing our attention and energy on teaching children to read and having an education system that's responsive to the child and to the parents, as opposed to mired in a system that refuses to change, will make America what we want it to be - a more literate country and a hopefuller country." -George W. Bush, Jan. 2001

"It'll be hard to articulate." -George W. Bush, anticipating how he'll feel upon assuming the presidency, Jan. 2001

"I am mindful of the difference between the executive branch and the legislative branch. I assured all four of these leaders that I know the difference, and that difference is they pass the laws and I execute them." -George W. Bush, Dec. 20, 2000

Thinking he's still the Governor of Texas.I guess.

"They misunderestimated me." -George W. Bush, Nov. 2000
"One of the great things about books is sometimes there are some fantastic pictures." -George W. Bush

"Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream." -George W. Bush

Sheesh.Steve's buddy sure do speak the english good .
Kinda like Mommy .

I thought you weren't talking to me anymore Hannibal? Those links you posted don't really interest me considering I am a supporter of Israel.
Please don't waist anymore cut and pasting breath on me dear man. I am a "lost cause" in your eyes. I'm sure your links massage the egos of the like minded on this site, but they provoke no reaction out of me. I will continue to post and debate with YOU and others on this site. Don't get your pants all in a knot over this. I am happy to debate with YOU any time. I don't have the time to debate your foolish links though. Have a wonderful evening.
mommy in love

mommyyouaresuchafuckingairheadit'sscary....you are so befuddled you don't know which way is up. I made the first link to proudtobecanadian. This was in the hopes you would move and leave your cute little exclamation marks somewhere else. Hannibal, apparrently agreed with me to such a degree that he posted a direct link. You could just click on that one. Mine, you would have to type. We know your spelling skills are not up to par so he was just helping you out. It's great to help in the community if you get the chance!!

You really should reconsider your vocation. Such sneering contempt for women who choose or need daycare is not becoming to a daycare provider. In other words, you greedy cow, find another line of work. Your contempt is so vehement that it must affect how you choose to look after their children. I feel very sorry for anyone who has to utilize your services. If you are so devoted to your little darlings why don't you home school them? This would save you from using other people's children to finance the evangelical schools you have them in. You could all learn to spell together. What fun!

I can't resist. It is beyond belief. 'waist' should read waste. Air head.

Hey aalborg!!!
I was hopeing you would check back in!
I thanked Hannibal for his link, are you upset I didn't thank you too?
THANK YOU! Are you satisfied.
Well I am off for the evening but just HAD to clear the air so you could sleep a little better.
I don't consider daycare "work" It is what I do and I happen to get a little $ for doing it. My day is filled with bakeing with the kids, crafts, music lessons, daily outings, rest time for the little ones, reading and lots of cuddles and hugs. I am constantly reffering moms to other day care providers because my spots are all full. Don't feel sorry for the kidlets I take care of, feel sorry for the moms out there who miss out on all of the laughter, jokes, smiles, and kissing tear soaked cheaks that I enjoy every day. I LOVE MY "JOB"!! If I didn't want to be with little kids all day I also could farm them out and return to work and make enough $ to justify leaving my kids with a caregiver each day.
A national daycare program will only promote pulling kids away from there moms so that mommy's can go off to work and bring home some bacon too. As I said before I am a product of daycare. I HATED IT!!! Being in a pack of kids all day, doing what ever was scheduled for the 20 min time slot, feeling sad and alone, even though there were dozens of children and adults around me. This is not the best way for a young toddler or baby to spend there early years. Sorry, its not. When I'm told "You do a better job with my kids than I do" or "they have more fun at your house than mine" I cringe. These poor moms really do think that daycare is better for there baby than being at home raising them themselves. It sad, I'm sorry, but I ache for these family's divided. Slam me all you want, rally for daycare instead of helping your grandchildren stay in the safety of home if you please. But you, Hannibal, and others are fooling yourself if you think that ANY daycare, no matter how fun or loving will ever compare to a devoted mom at home.
Finally I did consider homeschooling but I really think that school offers a lot of benifits for an older child that I cannot spelling... :-)
However you bet that I am in the classroom volentearing, driving, baking and supervising as much as possinble.
I can drop off and pick up my kids, and at the end of the day they have me and there sibs at home to unwind and share there day with.
So hack me all you want, swear at me, belittle me, I really don't care.
My childrens laughter, milestones and stuggles are worth all of your mudslinging.
Have a wonderful evening.
mommyinlovewithlifechildrenandsummer

I do not see the point of "debating" with mommyinlove. For starters she has never once found a way to put my special needs child into daycare. Forget funding the provincial government gives me above and beyond what others get, how about finding a place for my child?
And how dare she comment on the devotion of the working parents to their children. For all we know, mothers who stay home, resent and hate their children for taking up so much of “their” time. Not everyone has to make the same choices as you- mommyinlove. Some people, after marrying the person they love, and having children with them, find themselves single and with no option but to work. And o’my gosh sometimes even fail safe birth control fail, and we end up with a bundle of joy, Some people bring a child into the world knowing they will be single parents, and if we follow mommyinlove’s logic, these people should fend for themselves? Are these children to suffer inadequate care due to mommyinlove’s twisted logic? Is mommyinlove, suggesting that these people are less devoted to their children than a “real” mother would be? I should hope not, but one never knows with her kind. The point most families are not compromised of the mom, dad and 2.4 children anymore. And we as a compassionate society should recognize this difference and help accordingly. Mr. Sinclair was correct, in his assessment that we would get more as a society by implementing a national child care system, rather than building more prisons. Remember way back in the 1990’s when it took a whole village to raise a child- same concept just on a larger scale.

Let's not link ourselves to death.
If you can't explain what you are thinking, hang up!
The subject here and now is the question " do we build more prisons? " Well of course we do.

You are absolutely right Neets in regard to 'debating' with mommyheadupherbutt. She is as thick as a brick and no amount of logic will change that. She's such an easy target though. It's much like a cat toying with a mouse. It was fun but the novelty has worn off.

I can only imagine how hard it is for you. I don't have any suggestions and for that I am deeply saddened. The world is in such a mess that I don't think there is hope for any of us, no matter what our situation. We just have to make our choices at the ballot box. A futile exercise but what else is there? If we don't, the village idiots will continue to be in charge and then any hope of compassion and assistance to those who need it, will be gone forever.

I was wondering if mommyinlove was, just possibly, IAMC's daughter.

It would explain a lot.

Neets,
You found your own solution to your little ones daycare woes. You kept him with you and he is learning more than he ever would away with the masses in a federally run daycare. You did an awsome job I am sure, you made it work, just like a lot of others could do if they didn't have cheap daycare to check there children in to. Is your son going to be a future criminal like Mr Sinclair suggests? He had you, not a daycare teaching him in his early years. Does that mean that he will some day be more Prone to commiting crimes because he was with you? How foolish, of course you had your little ones best interests in mind and you now have a smart 6 year old as proof.
aaiborg: I had just as much debating with you, I thought that we were here to express our opinions on matters like jails, daycare ect. It seems like eveyone here only wants to hear what tickles there ears from like minded folks. How sad that you get so defensive with a different point of view. I wish you well.
G West: Not sure what in the world you are suggesting here?? A joke or serious? I am a one woman army here with obviously no commrads. I can take the heat, it is thrilling acually. Hope you have a great summer.
mommyinlove

mommyinlove
No. I don't think so – you are no one-woman army.

In addition, even if you are no relation to IAMC you clearly belong to the same species of blinkered idiots of which he is the model. You are of no concern to people who actually think and understand the dynamics of the mess that rampant sociopath capitalism has created.

However, the truth will out in the end. I just hope your children don't have to suffer too much or too long because of your naïveté.

You might want to read a bit more evidence of IAMC's 'genius' on these pages and, if you have half the brains you think you do, you'll understand that I wasn't joking.

Anyone as thrilled by their own ignorance as you are is in for a very rough time of it. If you actually are what you purport to be I feel very sorry for you and your family.

Yes, I too am sorry I can't offer any legitimate soulution for Neets .
I can hear her frustration loud and clear .
In all likelihood a National daycare program would result in an answer .
But with people like Mommyisstrangeinthehead opposing everything good and proper in our society I fear for the outcome .
Hopefully the Liberal's will be returned with a majority to mitigate the damage caused by the'Insane Clown Posse' .
At this juncture they are our only hope .
Oh,yea Mommy wait until tax time when you realize Harpo's gift amounted to two thirds of five eighths of **** all .

When asked who Canada should support, a majority, 77 per cent, said Canada should be neutral. Sixteen per cent said Canada should support Israel, while only one per cent said Hezbollah. Six per cent didn't know or declined to answer.

Interestingly, when asked if they thought the government is neutral or supporting one side, the majority of respondents, 49 per cent, said they didn't know or wouldn't answer. Thirty-nine per cent said the government is supporting one side while 12 per cent said the government is neutral.

While Canadians may not have been sure if Ottawa's position on the Israeli-Lebanon conflict was neutral, 51 per cent thought Harper's stance represented a departure from the policies of previous governments, versus 22 per cent who thought it was consistent. Twenty-seven per cent wouldn't say or didn't know.

When asked why they thought Harper had taken this stance, a majority, 51 per cent, said because it is in line with the position of U.S. President George Bush and his administration. Nineteen per cent thought the prime minister did so out of principle and 10 per cent said because of domestic political considerations. Four per cent cited other reasons, while 14 per cent didn't know or wouldn't say.

The Strategic Counsel conducted its poll between Thursday and Sunday. The Israeli attack on the Lebanese village of Qana, which killed at least 56 civilians and drew widespread condemnation, happened Sunda

This is from one of the neo-Nazi's very own polling firms .
The idiot Gregg was one of the designers of the attack adds that high lighted Chretiens' facial deformity.

mommywhoisstillsofuckingstupid says and I quote:

"Is your son going to be a future criminal like Mr. Sinclair suggests? He had you, not a daycare teaching him in his early years."

Are you suggesting that children in daycares become the future criminals in this country? Do you have statistics to prove this theory? Please provide links to support your claim.

You have absolutely no idea as to the reality of someone in Neet's position. Your sanctimonious posturing towards what she and her child are enduring in the here and now is beneath contempt.

Absolutely correct Aalborg .

aalborg, hannibal:

They, IAMC, mommylove, and the rest are incapable of arguing rationally for a system and an approach that has no sense of humanity and shared purpose – looking beyond their own nose and their own selfish interests - so they are always left with little more than, as you so tellingly put it aalborg, contemptuous sanctimony. These are the modern descendants of the Inquisition: We will never be rid of them but one hopes to expose them every chance one gets and always, somehow, to prevent a reversion to auto-da-fé - which is what they'd really like to go back to.

I had to google auto-da-fe! Very interesting.(How do you do those thingys over the e?)

I believe it has reached the point where the neo-con belief system has to be loudly condemned at every opportunity. The low educational standards, the worship of money, the deep shallowness of our society are some of the things that, frankly, scare me silly. Maybe I've been in la-la land but it just seems so much more prevalent now. If we ignore the politically and morally bankrupt amongst us, we won't win. I despair for the future. I suppose every era has felt that way and I am possibly over-reacting, but it's the dreadful shallowness that gets me the most. The hollow-eyed walking dead with no thoughts other than where they can get their next me-me-me fix of the moment. Step over or step on those less fortunate in the quest for themselves. I can't articulate the dread I feel and I'm starting to babble so will shut it down for today. Thanks for the new phrase G West. I love learning new things.

aalborg
You're right. They'd have us all at the stake if they thought they could get away with it. I remember particularly that slime Tax cutter and his hateful response to your account of your daughter's situation. There is no doubt in my mind that it is getting worse by the day.

You can get accents and other text symbols by typing them in Word or some other word processing program (sometimes you have to use Insert/Symbols and select the one you’re looking for) and then just use copy and paste to post them in the comment window, btw.

There are some exceptions - Chinese characters, for example, often don't work as asher is always pointing out.

Don't think you were babbling at all - and I quite like the idea of dreadful shallowness as a descriptor.

Cheers.

Hey aalborg, and G West,

It is "getting worse by the day" as you said "G". As aalborg, I fear the lack of compassion, and concern for one another, society has developed as a normal way of being. Love and a sence of responsibility for your neighbor seems to carry so little value in todays societys. Big cars, big homes, and big titles identify the epitomy of success today... What a loss from where we came from, and fundamentaly, who we are.

Indeed, as you said aalborg, "dreadful shallowness" is as though a disease that needs to be cured.

aalborg said: "Step over or step on those less fortunate in the quest for themselves".

Perhaps, as freebears said on another thread, it starts at home.

Thanks for acknowledging the obvious my friends...

Peace and Love

RTB

Gwest
Nobody expects the "Spanish Inquisition”[I] At least you were able inject some humour into an otherwise angry little discussion, it would seem that most of those attacking mommyinlove, have forgotten their manners taught to them in daycare or kindergarten.

Colin
I wasn't joking!

Mommyinlove, IAMC and their ilk would be just fine with Tomas de Torquemada's approach. These people aren't democrats at all, they're Fascists...they don't want a social system with a range of options structured to address a wide range of problems and needs. As I've said before, you are a little more sophisticated but, on childcare and family options in a difficult time for people trying to raise their families during economic madness, you're about as self-centered and blind as mommy love.

That's too bad.

Leave this woman alone. She has a right to her opinion. Mommyinlove, I agree with 99% of what you have been posting. Who are the rest of you to attack and name call her like schoolyard bullies. It seems like you can dish it out out not take any critisism of your own bias beliefs. Grow up and learn to debate instead of attack.

Sorry G. Just had to provide the explanation.
That is why I enjoy rreading your stuff so much.Always an interesting word or two to add to my vocabulary .

Colin: Quit yer' whining .
Mommylovesherself doesn't need you riding in on a white charger to save her virtue.
As she is devoid of virtue or common sense for that matter .
I didn't miss you Colin .

Stupid,vacuous,shallow,insisdious writing should and will be attacked everywhere Left in the Field like a scare crow .
Who are you to defend this twit ?
Oh,right another neo-nazi jack booted minion .
Phuque off bozo !

Some happy places for the neo-cons:

http://www.wckkkk.com/index2.html
http://www.natall.com/
http://www.nukeisrael.com/whitepowerflyers.htm
http://www.nukeisrael.com/hhroadsign.htm

That was not an angry little discussion. Discussion is not an activity you can do with the likes of mommywhogivesbimboawholenewmeaning. She defines shallowness. There is not a lot one can say in that case. Her comments and POV are so pathetic that they beg to be made fun of. We obliged and hopefully mommyisathomeandwillSTFU.

I really dislike the preachy types on this site and elsewhere, who have to bring up the subject of 'manners.' It always happens when some neo-con twit is told they are fucking stupid, because what else is left to say. Then the other neo-con types come riding in with their little banner of good manner and preach. Colin is so focused on the f word he can't see the truth. mommy and her kind, if left unchecked, will hasten the decline of the kind of society I want to live in. I won't lie down and let those types step on me in their quest to destroy the society I live in.

I will have to wait for my new computer to do the french accents etc. G West. I have an XP home version and it doesn't do much.

right field...just like mommy you have no comprehension skills. We all have the right to our opinion and the right to express it. That's what we were doing. But because you believe she is 99% right you want the rest of us to back off and not bully her? Get a grip. We can dish it out and we can take it. Bring it on.

Aablorg and Hannibal,
Do you remember back in the day when you were in school? Remember the bully on the schoolyard who tried to imtimidate others by belittling and name calling them? Inside this child had a broken spirit, they were insecure, and most likely neglected at home, unloved... To make themself feel better they had to put others down in a degrading way. They would swear, lash out at others to compensate for the lack of confidence they felt inside.
That sounds like you two. Banding together in a mommylovebash because she is standing up for her family and for what she sees is right for children. Do you wish that your own Mother's cared for you the way this woman cares for the children she has been intrusted with? You hold her and others with beliefs like hers with contemp because you are threatned. Secretly you know that she is not alone in her thinking and this little lady scares you. Mature, well adjusted men don't hide behind tough talk and fowl language to prop themselves up. Don't feel sorry for this woman. Pity yourself instead.

No,Lefty I feel sorry for you for believing the neo-nazi drivel being spouted by Herr Harpo et al .
Facists are the same the world over and it is part of their modus operandi to depress the electorate into not caring.
Garnering a sense of hoplessness in the belief that "If you can't fight 'em then join 'em "
I could care less how many brain dead neo-nazi's think like her.
Their days are numbered .
Stevey the brave and Emerson the idiot have alreeady backed off on making the softwood deal a confidence vote. Becaause they would not only lose the vote they would lose the Government(?)
Guys(?) like you make me laugh .
You have all the answers .

The last thing I feel in regards to "this little lady" is threatened. Surely you must be joking? She is just as contemptuous towards my beliefs as I am to hers. Until she grabs a brain there will be no chance to debate or argue constructively. It just can't happen with neo-cons.

That you view her as a helpless little mommy taking care of her family the best way she can, is your problem. Deal with it. She has already implied here that children in daycare are the future criminals. That belief is stunning in its stupidity. Yet she continues to provide daycare services. She is not looking after other children because she values them. She views them as a paycheque, nothing more. An end to a means. If you choose to believe differently that is your choice. That would be 'foul' language, not fowl. What is it about you neo-cons and your spelling abilities?

The last thing I feel in regards to "this little lady" is threatened. Surely you must be joking? She is just as contemptuous towards my beliefs as I am to hers. Until she grabs a brain there will be no chance to debate or argue constructively. It just can't happen with neo-cons.

That you view her as a helpless little mommy taking care of her family the best way she can, is your problem. Deal with it. You can go back to the school yard and draw all the parallels you want but it isn't the case in this situation. She has already implied here that children in daycare are the future criminals. That belief is stunning in its stupidity. Yet she continues to provide daycare services. She is not looking after other children because she values them. She views them as a paycheque, nothing more. An end to a means. If you choose to believe differently that is your choice.

That would be 'foul' language, not fowl. What is it about you neo-cons and your spelling abilities?

sorry about the double post. don't know what happened.

Hey, if people want to blow-off, let them blow-off. Don't script their language. Put it all on the table. I do not believe in holding anything back... Rock on dudes.

Take "it", or leave the thread...eh.

RTB

Good to hear from 'ya again Bear .
Any sighting of the 'Great Komode' this summer?
Yes,lefty the word is entrusted not intrusted and as my friend Aalborg has already pointed out it is foul and not fowl.
You neo-cons can't even handle the queens english let alone operate a great democracy like Canada .

Hey hannibal...!

The best trip ever dude. No Komode, but we saw a HUGE grizzly, sea otters, and awesome CMT trees.

Too many pathetic clear cuts though hannibal... Right down to the streams creating a disaster as we are seeing in the salmon population. Remember we talked, No salmon, No rainforest...simple.

The Heiltsuk are doing it right, and with respect. Traditional mangement is the best.

Cool bud, thanks for asking.

Peace hannibal, and keep up the great posts...!!

RTB

Once again, apologies to all for the sidebar.

More good news for the winning side:

Good news there Hannibal....is it possible the truth shall prevail?

So the neo-cons are going on a 'retreat'? Can you imagine being confined at a retreat with that bunch? It would be a special kind of hell.

Yea, no kidding Aalborg the bland leading the blnad and delusional .
Thought that might cheer 'ya up a bit .
I was grinning from ear to ear when I read that .
Those are great numbers .
I see the traitor Emerson has called for all the lumber company execs to meet him in TO next week so he can suck-hole and tell them this is the best deal we can get .
Yea, right !
From a moron,maybe .
The mask has been torn off to reveal the biggoted Reform/Alliance at its worst .

Wonder what IAMC will do with that poll.

Good to see all of you in print together - aalborg, hannibal, RTB. What happened to the lovemommy, I though she said she liked a scrap, didn't she?

Ah, G West, the lovemommy is a wimp. But we knew that, didn't we? She's probably at a retreat getting re-educated. Learning new ditto-bott phrases and how to print her name correctly.

I love the image my mind conjures up of 'the bland leading the bland and delusional' Hannibal! (exclamation mark, oh no!)

Gee. Clueless'll spin it so the Neo's will have the lead all across the nation.
Just watch him .
A week agao he said the neo's had a 45% bulge on the Liberal's .

ROTFLMAO Aalborg.That is too funny .
I hear Mommylove repeating ad nauseum "Now it is I before E ,except after C and sometimes Y " in a nasally ,cranky voice.
Oh,no !

Mommyinlove has no more time to waste debating this topic with those who are disillusioned when it comes to the drawbacks of a Fed day care. If you are happy to see your little children and grandchildren being handed off by their mom's, in their own selfish quest of personal fufillment thats fine. I do feel sorry for these little ones indeed. Selfish parents who put there own wants and needs above the happiness of their own children. How sad indeed. All the time thinking that they are doing the "best" for there babes.
Trust me, little children are not stupid, They understand that some moms stay at home because they want to be with there kids. They understand that their mommy isn't there in the days, she is in there hearts but is no where to be found. Don't hate me because I want the best for my family and other family's out there. Hate the system that is lying to parents, convincing them that the best is yet another Federal program that will be paid for out of the taxpayers pocket.
I wish you all well. Keep the bar of soap close to your keyboard, I'm sure you will need to wash your mouth out soon.
Mommyinlove

You laboured long and hard on that post didn't you mommywhostilldoesn'tgetit?

Quote:

"selfish parents who put their own wants and needs above the happiness of their own children."

Are you really that dumb or are you just pretending? Feeding, clothing and putting a roof over the heads of their children has become a selfish act? ****, what are they thinking? You don't understand that the majority of women who work do so because one income is not enough to provide the basics? Sure, some women work because their career is more important than their child, but they are a very small minority. Very small. You yourself admit to providing daycare to supplement the family income. I'd have thought you would have clued in to the reality just in talking to the women who are unfortunate enough to have to bring their kids to your house. And I don't mean it's because they are working. I'd have to knock you silly if you displayed that sanctimonious attitude towards me and my kid.
Mommy's in their heart but nowhere to be found during the day? Give me strength.

Can anyone be more stupid and clueless? Please say it ain't so.

Mommyinlove sez

Are we to take it that this is your preferred method of discipline?

As for your contention that a real daycare system (like the one that is proving to be phenomenally successful in Quebec) would not be popular with parents everywhere - and envied by parents struggling with the economic reality of family life in the first decade of the 21st century - well, it's just too silly for words.

But, go for it, pretend that up is down and black is white. I hope your kids don't have to suffer too much for your naïveté and that you won't wash their mouths out with soap when they come home from school and tell you the truth some day.

Just wondering out loud how Mommy can close her Daycare in the summer months .
Do all her clients(?) vacation at the same time ?
Provide daycare for teachers children only?
I,really,want to know how this is possible?
Dose she make her clients seek alternate daycare in the summer ?
How much dose she charge per day for her services ?
What dose she provide food,teaching ,transport etc. ?
How does she feel about the Quebec model of daycare that is the envy of the entire nation ?
Is she aware that Quebec residents can get daycare for $7.00,per day ?
Don't stop now Mommy these are all legitimate questions .

Aalborg
That’s because I have taken my diversity course and harassment courses and have been properly assimilated!!

Seriously though, I spent a good part of my life in camps, ships, military and can swear and curse with the best of them. However I also realize that swear words are heavily overused nowadays and not appropriate for a rational conversation.

My greatest admiration is for the old guys that can rip you apart with a wonderful saying without using a single swear word, I fear the ability to insult has been dumbed down.

Hannibal
I don’t really miss you either and I am sure Mommy is used to dealing with people like you and doesn’t need my help. So people aren’t allowed to take vacations? What sort of sweatshop are you planning to run? The lady up the street from us has done the same thing, just part of life.

Off topic, was it you that was dissing me for my comment that the First Nations are going to dump the environmentalists and promote development in their traditional territories? If so I guess the issue in Clayqoot proves me right, if it wasn’t you, sorry.

Let's hope mommy's kids can overcome their genetic heritage and find a brain. The bar of soap will be a small price to pay for the ability to become feeling, compassionate people able to care about all of humanity.

I've also wondered how she manages to close down her daycare during the summer. The one my daughter uses closes for two weeks and gives her enough time to make plans for that period of time.

Then there is my nephew in his state run daycare in Copenhagen. During the summer months the children go out to the country each day for two weeks to farms and participate in other country related activites. They are sent by bus and my brother says F. has a wonderful time. In Copenhagen he is still learning music, theatre, they play outside everyday no matter what the weather, the list is endless of the activities that they do. He is now 4 so has started kindergarten and the academics and it all takes place in the same building.

I know Denmark has only 5 million citizens but Canada has only 30 million. Why we can't learn from the Danish example is beyond me. A poll was just released and Denmark ranked first for the happiest people in the world. Canada was tenth. I can see why we are so low on that scale. Educational standards are very high in Denmark so that affects how a society sees itself.

The questions weren't addressed to you Colin .

Hey Hannibal,
I am happy to awnser your questions:
I provide care for 3 children, I charge a daily rate of $20-$30 dollars for a 10 hour day. This costs each parent a whopping $2-$3 per hour per child. I made more as a teenagager babysitting a family of 3 children.
I provide all meals, juice and milk, as well as snacks, not diapers or wipes.
We do daily crafts at my expense ($50-$75 per month) on craft supplies.
We do daily "lessons" on printing and pre-K home learning curriculum. I buy these supplies out of pocket. Yes I'm sure you will rip me apart saying I'm the last person who should be teaching writing but the kids are learning there ABC's, 1-20 ect.
I provide a daily outing, park, nature walks, beach trips, goldstream, and a few times a week free music lessons. I try to keep the outings limited to free venues and I don't get extra $ for taking them out to say the museum.
I had to buy 3 car seats, a bigger van, high chair, booster seats, sleeping matteresses for the kids, an extra crib for the baby, toys for outside play, extra insurance on my house, all out of my own pocket. I am licenced, I had to take a few ECE classes paid for by me, my house had to have a fence all around the property, the inside of the house top to bottom kid proofed. THis cost me a lot initianlly and I still have not made this $ back.
At the end of the year I have some rights off's. My accountent breaks me even every year. SO basically I make $0 income at the end of the year. Scary. Not all of my kids are full time so even though you may call me a cash cow, I would make more working at Walmart a few hours a week.
You may not believe me but I do love little kids and babies so I am fine doing this for a small amount of money.
Most daycare providers don't get into this business for the $
I do daycare for one teacher, one dentist and one friend. I do not get paid during the summer, as far as I know all 3 moms take the summer off too.
I really like the moms I do care for.
I'm not against daycare or people who use it. I just don't think we need to encourage MORE moms to put their kids into it. I know ALOT of mom who agonize over putting their baby's in daycare once their one year mat leave is over. They want to stay at home but don't think they can swing it. Then once they look at the cost of working, Daycare, eating out, 2 cars, drycleaning ect they clue in that they can go on a tighter budget and stay home with there baby after all. I still believe that if daycare wasn't cheap and available to the masses more moms would stay at home for the few short years before the kids are off to school. If they are truly low icome they will get subsidized daycare, as my friend I do daycare for does. If a mom truly does want or "needs" to work she can put her kids into daycare and pay the $30 daily rate that is standard.
Why should the taxpayers owe anyone cheap daycare? We have never had it before and most of us are fine. I truly think that we would be better served putting that $ into services like medical, schools, or increased low income daycare subsidy.
Whoa this is long. I have to run, Slam me now, I know your are dying too.
Mommy

I'll be serious here mommy. With everything that you've described you'd think that you'd be in favour of a national daycare program. I think that people like you should be compensated for the work you do and I for one, wouldn't mind if that came from the gov'f coffers. As far as I can see you advocate that parents look after their children first. That's great; I don't think that anyone here would actually disagree with that statement. You also seem to realize that some parents require daycare services - I for one, will need a daycare starting next summer. However, your real complaint against a nationalized daycare program is that you believe that it'll simple encourage people to leave the child raising to someone else. Do you comprehend the fact that that statement is opinion and totally unsubstantiated. Besides which, if a parent(s) is going to pay a bit of money for childcare even if they are in a position to care for that child themselves, well, I would question their capabilities as a parent. Therefore, perhaps it's best for the child that they spend less time with parents like that no?

Finally mommy posts something that makes sense. You are making a determined effort to provide a stimulating day for the children in your care. I applaud you for that. I agree with ubiquitous you should be paid more for your effort and valued as a provider of care to small children. Don't you see that a nationalized program would ensure that? Subsidies paid directly to you as a licensed provider would increase your salary and you wouldn't just have to break even at the end of the year. It is a valuable job and the government should recognize that fact. The reality is that most parents cannot afford to pay what you are really worth. The other reality is that parents have to work in order to survive. It would be great if it wasn't so but that isn't the case. I would rather my tax dollars go to daycare providers than the costs of bringing dead soldiers home from Afghanistan or subsidizing the oil industry etc ad nauseum. Society has to get their priorities in order and ensure the government follows through. Harper's token gesture of $100. per month (taxable) is insulting not only to you as a provider but to the parents who need daycare. His hollow words of providing a choice are just that, hollow. He isn't on your side mommy. Do you see that now? All the cost saving measures you cite for families are great, but just aren't plausible for so many. Daycare is here to stay so Canada should step up to the plate and make it a priority. Treat the children and the providers with respect and dignity. We can afford to do it. You say you would rather see the money go to health and education. The thing is, we have the money for those programs also, but government waste and the wrong priorities will ensure that any savings from scrapping daycare subsidies will not go into health or education. Your fight should be for a compassionate society that values everyone.

Okay great ! Thirty bucks a day equals $600.00,per month .
Reality dictates that most couples,simply,have to work to be able to afford housing,groceries and entertainment.
I don't believe there are too many people in the ninety thousand and up income bracket utilizing daycare .
This represents approximately 1% of the population .
The majority of Canadians earn substantially less than $50,000 per year .
If a mother works away from the home this is for the betterment of the entire family .
Some moms work a full shift and still face cooking dinner,doing laundry and house cleaning .
A national tax funded daycare is the way to go .
Aalborg is correct in that we should be studying the Danish model of daycare .
Too many children are falling through the safety net .

Complete agreement with everything in Aalborg's latest post .

Mommy you won't get slammed if you are resonable in your approach .
It just becomes tiring when someone mouths the same old platitudes expoused by the government(?)and offers nothing as an alternative .
Great you love Stevey but can't you see that this so-called childcare program is nothing more than a bribe to the evangelicals in this country .
How are 250,000 , spaces to be developed through tax credits ?
Provinces have tried that approach and it was a massive failure .
Dians Findley hasn't a clue on how to proceed with this program .
As Aalborg pointed out if a national daycare program were enacted you would be paid a decent wage for your time and effort .
I hope you realize that the $3,600, you receive from Harpo puts you in a whole new tax bracket .

I recieved a letter today from Diane Finlay, minister whatever. I wrote the twit last January. She wants me to accept her apologies for the delay in replying. Yeah, right. The first thing she learned under harpo was to forget who she works for and who pays her over-inflated salary and benefits.

Bottom line...she directs me to a website to explore the child care plan in more detail. I can search the web on my own. I expect a reply to my specific questions and she is incapable of providing that. Typical neo-con.

Mommy
The problem, in the end, is not that people want daycare. They need daycare. And they can't find appropriate ways to meet that need.

It is one thing to say that it's too bad that every family can't have one parent stay at home and care for the family's children. I don't even disagree with that - but it's not reality and Harper's bribe won't create one new daycare space to meet the demand that is out there for good, reliable, stimulating, safe and affordable ways for young families to meet their obligations as parents, teachers, home owners, employees and employers and as balanced and reasonably happy citizens.

TO pretend that we can continue the way we are and that it will not have devastating effects on relationships, families, education, the economy and the very nature of our cities and towns is simply blindness.

Further, I suspect, if your accountant is doing his job that you are managing to provide deductible food, heating, telephone and several other benefits for most of your family's needs - just as entrepreneurs who run corner stores never pay a food bill they can't expense. So, in the end, you may think you aren't benefiting from your business and you just offering a service out of the goodness of your heart - I doubt that's actually true - or at least it is not the whole truth.

A true national daycare scheme would benefit both you and the people who use your services; and, furthermore, it wouldn't come, in the end, as such a great burden on the economy - if Quebec's experience is any measure.

In the end, not addressing these concerns appropriately is going to have a great cost for our country. It is no irony that we should be discussing this on a thread about prisons, in the end.

G West,
I never said that I was offering a service out of the goodness of my heart (as you put it) I am not stupid OK?
I break even at the end of the year. This means I am able to stay home with my kids. They have me as a teacher, not another ECE. They don't have to wake up early and get driven off to another home or center to spend their day. They can play with their own toys, watch a video, play with there sibs or with a friend, go in the backyard, do a craft, take part in a lesson if they want to. They can be comforted by me if they are sad or upset. Basicley, doing daycare means I get "free" daycare for my kids. I may not make any $ at the end of the year, but I am not "paying" for childcare either. By taking other children into my home, these other moms and supplimenting my income so I can be home with my kids...Make sense?
Also even with this $300 per month I now get from the Feds, I still will be making well under $5000 per year, so I still don't pay tax. I am still ahead, and now 2 of my kids can go to preschool a few hours a week, something I could not afford before this $300 per month. I am happy with this $, it is better for me than before,it seems more fair because ALL parents are getting something, not only those who decide to put there kids in Fed care.
Hannibal, I don't personally see a HUGE need for childcare spaces. I am with groups of daycare providers weekly, I also am on several forums that deal with childcare issues in Victoria and BC. I constantly see new spots, especially in home daycares that sit vacant sometimes for up to a month. Where are all of the people out there who need these spots? I know that a lot of the larger centers like the CRIDGE, Uvic, camosun ect have wait lists. BUT if parents look around and are a little more creative I honestly believe that they will find a spot for their child. I still don't see why the gov't needs to get involved in this. I have also heard many moms complain that they cant find a spot for their infant/ one year old. So they have "had" to stay home until their baby turned into a toddler to find them a spot. After their baby is able to find a spot in a center they said how great it was to be able to spend this "extra" time bonding and raising their baby. I think that if daycare was so cheap and easy to access, many more moms and baby's would miss out on this fleeting time together.
Finally, to UbiQ: Trust me, I know a lot of moms 20-40 years old with young children. Hundreds in my years of being with kids at rec centers, parks, sunday school, daycare gatherings, friends and family. MANY of these moms work to pay daycare with little $ left over. They say "I have to work to stay sane" or "I could never stay home full time" "I need to get out and be with other adults" "I need to feel useful" ect....
How sad for there kids, to feel like they are next in line after moms job, something only to be delt with in the days so mom can go out to work and feel useful. These moms are robbing themselves of the joy of being with there kids. They don't really KNOW there kids, they get the worst part of them, the end of the day, dinner time rush hour. They are missing out on so much, both the mom and the baby / toddler. I fear that if we have cheap daycare many more kids and moms will think that it is the'way to go' and miss out on their baby's early years. They are so sweet when they are small. I see so much growth and acheivement in the kids that I do care for. Its sad to me thats all, that I am enjoying these moms kids while they are away at work.
Have a great day and thanks for not swearing at me and calling me names.
Mommyinlove

mommyinlove
I never once dissed what you were doing. We find different ways, all of us, to cope with what the world hands us.

I do think you were far too critical and dismissive of the problems other people have coping with their own lives. Nobody ever, well hardly ever, purposely makes a bad decision - especially for their children.

I don't think you give other mothers enough credit and I think your own experience (I hesitate to speculate when) but let's say 20 years ago) is necessarily representative of what good daycare (which is never cheap in my view) is, or could be today.

I think there is a groundswell of support for a real solution to these very real problems and I an convinced that Mr. Harper's solution is making things worse - not least because it created the kind of friction between people (who ought to have the same objectives - raising well-adjusted and happy children) such as has gone on between the folks who've been posting to this thread.
Cheers.

Mommy: Your numbers our your logic are deeply flawed.
Three children ,in your care,amounts to $1800.00,per month gross income plus the $300.00, Federal stipend per month amounts to $2100.00,per month .
How is it possible that you make less than $5,000,per year ?
By my estimation you are making $23,200 a year a far cry from the less than $5,000,that you claim .
Better be careful Mommy or you'll end up in one of Harpo's Gulags for tax evasion.
Your numbers do not add up .
And you cannot subtract the $3600.00, from your taxes it comes off of your husbands spousal tax credit .
So he is now paying more taxes . Welcome to Harpo's Wonderland .
"Hmmmm. I wonder where all my money went"
I still haven't heard a legitimate argument from you on why the rest of us don't need a National daycare program.

I believe Mommy owes Neets an unqualified apology .
Haven't heard it yet and until I do Mommy is on the grease .

Hannibal,
Try to guess how much it cost me to fence my ENTIRE yard. How much did the playground cost? What about the van I had to buy to seat 10 passengers? My start up for daycare was huge, in the tens of thousands.
It is all worked out in monthly payments on a massive line of credit. THis goes against what I "earn" doing daycare. I am not an accountant. I have no idea what he does with the numbers at tax time but I make $0 at the end of the year. No profit.
I have not paid off my line of credit yet that was exclusivly daycare related. Please don't assume that you know the ins and out of my business.
You have no idea of my life and the work I do on a daily basis for what amounts to little.
Whom do I owe an apology for and why???
Why don't you start for all of the swearing and name calling directed towards me?
mommyinlove

For a brief moment I was willing to give mommy the benefit of a doubt. She seems to be a good daycare provider judging by the list of activities she described. But she still fails when it comes to understanding the reality for everyone but herself. My guess is she is very young and will be learning some lessons the hard way. She lives in a fantasy world or the old world. I can't figure out which one yet. The one where mommy stays home, daddy goes a-hunting and mommy and assorted children greet daddy at the end of the day and exclaim with great delight what a good hunter/provider he is. Very much in line with the neo-con line of thinking. The little lady stays home barefoot, pregnant and she will get $100./month/child for her trouble. If she wants to work from home that suits the neo-cons just fine too. She's in the house where she belongs is the bottom line. Wait - that's the old world. It's not about choices as harpo would have us believe. It's all about going back in time. It is the utter lack of respect that neo-cons like harpo and bush have towards the general population and women in particular. mommy will wake up one day and have to fight the liberation fight all over again. She should listen now and save herself a lot of grief. The poor thing though, is a good example of the indoctrination the public school system is doing. Keep 'em dumb and don't let them question anything. Oh well, what can you do? At least the polls are showing harpo declining in popularity. Today's events with the death of four more soldiers will, I hope, wake up some of the unthinking amongst us.

Agreed Aalborg.Mommylovesherself is clueless .
As this is the first month of Harpo's bribe I laugh at the contention her family has come to depend on it .That is a joke .
Well get it while you can Mommyclueless as it will end once the Liberal's are returned to power with a massive majority .
Every point over 30, equals 5, seats and the Liberal's now have a 12 point lead in Ontario which means 60,more seats fot the white hats .
Landslide Tony Clement who one by one vote is all done as is minister of money Flaherty and a bunch of other morons will lose their seats in Ontario along with the ten seats they now hold in Quebec as that was a gift from Mario Dumont of the Action Democratique .
Don't cry too hard Mommycluelss when the all clown party is tossed out .
In the mean time.Grow up !

I am not cluelessl Hannibal. I live daycare/ child care every day. I grew up in daycares, I am no expert but I am not cluless in this area. You obviously are the expert? Do you run a daycare? Were you raised by others while your "liberated" mother worked full time? It sure doesn't sound like it.
Also, I never said my family "depended" on this new childcare $
It is gravy to me, it will cover some preschool for my kids, that works for me. I said that we depend on the Child tax credit as it is part of our monthly budget. I guess you didn't read my post correctly. I am not stupid either. I have graduated from UVIC with a degree. Does that make me smart? Certainly not, but I am not some un educated child, I am in my 30's, not "very young" in my books.
It is obvious to me that you are a very rude man. You never ansered me, how much did I spend to start up my daycare? You are the one who is cluless Hannibal. It is beyond you to try to be polite or give me the benifit of the doubt with anything. I'm sorry I am not the most eloquent with my words, try taking care of baby's and toddlers for 10 years and see how smart you sound after a while. I am in a whole different world from yours. This makes be different, not stupid OK?
You don't want to hear any other side of an issue besides your own. I have listened to you and others thoughtfully, too bad the same courtesy wan't extended to me.
I am done with this. Think what you want about me, I am not here to "change" you, I mearly wanted to offer some of my experiances.
Have a great day.
Sighning out,
mommyinlove

As this was the first month of the $ it amazes me that you so readily rely on it .
And if,as you say,you run a daycare why do you pay someone else to look after your kids.
I thought you were dead against this .

Not only are you Clueless you are a filthy hypocrite .
You pay someone to look after your two youngest .
That about says it all .
Don't bother to respond as I have no need to debate someone who is so at odds with the truth .

Mommy is Clueless is a person with sociopathic tendencies much like the neo-Nazi party she so loves .
No point in debating this nit-wit anymore Aalborg as she is a waste of time and energy.
She has been caught in many lies .

Aalborg I didn't realize Harpo's bribe is only for two years .
Guess the moron figures it will take that long to get a majority.
Definition of insane.Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result .
Harpo has refused to back down on his insane stance on the Middle East .
The 'Insane Clown Posse' figures that announcing a miilion dollars to Lebanon for help is going to turn the polls around . Mot on planet earth they won't .
Thing is they were already tanking in the polls prior to the dirty little war in Lebanon .

DUHH!!! Hannibal,
Again assuming you know the facts. Once again you are wrong...HAH!
Preschool runs in 2 hour sessions. My kids will be able to go for one morning a week. 2 hours a week is hardley "paying someone to take care of my youngest" as daycare 40 hours + per week. It is apples and oranges, it can't even be compared, sorry to dissapoint you.
Also did I say these were my 2 youngest?
Do you know I have an infant of my own, and also take care of a baby of a friend? You truly are cluess, you can't handle being wrong and you continue to try to discredit me. It won't work, I have not been "caught" in any lie, I am not a hipocrite, you once again are twisting the facts to suit yourself. What a sad way to "prove" yourself right. You think you know the ins and outs of daycare, but you are only proveing to me that people like you have no idea what the truth of daycare is, and will make me fight even harder to keep your types out of making the day care decision for me and other great moms out there.
Have a wonderful day,
mommyinlove

Tell somebody who cares MommyisClueless .

I will. You obviously don't.
Enjoy the sunshine!!!!!!

mommyinlove

Just a quick point of clarification. Has anyone ever said that parents shouldn't be free to make whatever arrangements for child care fit their circumstances and finances?

I don't think anyone has.

The point, which, with respect, I made yesterday and you have not yet responded to is simple. Why would you have a problem with a decent national daycare program such as the previous government (after years of pressure and cajoling from parents and various citizen groups) finally acquiesced to undertake to provide through agreements with the various provinces?

Such a program would not in any way affect what you are doing in any respect other than the $100/month/child>6 bribe that Mr Harper is currently paying you. A sum which is, I think we can all agree, largely irrelevant as a means of addressing anyone’s actual daycare needs.

I can understand your own personal antipathy toward a childhood you apparently found unsatisfactory and for which you assign much blame to the daycare modalities available to your own parents some (I'm guessing here) 20 years ago. Fair enough. What I think rankles for both hannibal and aalborg is that you seem to want to demonize other peoples’ choices and options because of your own personal views.

This seems strange and somewhat unfair to me and I suspect it is this intransigence on your part that attracts the ire of your interlocutors.

Can you appreciate where this comes from? It does seem to be rather bloody minded on your part to suggest that the only thing of any concern to you is your own point of view and the rest of (the majority) of the parents who are struggling with these kinds of problems can go to the devil (or accept your point of view however incompatible) because Mr. Harper’s solution is irrelevant and incapable of meeting their needs.

Is that fair? I would further say that your experience in Victoria – a demographic not exactly typical when compared with younger and less mature communities – may not be all that relevant to the general case either.

Thankyou Gee: As always precise and to the point .
Agree 100% .

G West,
I don't have a "problem" with a National daycare program. I just don't see the "need" for one. As I mentioned in a previous post, I am aware of many great home based daycares that have spaces available sometimes for up to a month. If don't see a huge shortage of spots and am not in favor of another gov't run program to "create" more spaces. Another program would "create" a lot more union jobs (hence Mr Sinclair promoting this program) It would create more pressure for moms to go back to work early because they could justify going to work for min wage somewhere because there daycare would be so cheap.
I am not saying that woman should not work or stay home forever, I just think that while they have a little baby or toddler, both mom and babe benifit from moms at home being the primary caregiver. I don't see how a union ECE worker can even compete with the love, security, hugs and cuddles that a mom at home with her baby can. I think that we as a society would be better encouraging moms to stay at home longer than the one year mat leave. Not promoting cheap daycare as a way to get them back into the workforce early.
I look forward to the day I can go to work again one day. When my kids are in school it would be great! Why rush off to work when the kids are so small?? I don't see how this is "best" for anyone?
If a mom truly needs to work than by all means place your child in daycare. If this mom really can't afford the $30 per day than the gov't does step in and pay for most if not all of the daycare costs. That is great! I am all for that. If a mom "wants" to work for her sanity or carrer, than let her find care for her child and spend the money to place her child in care. I am not being mean, I just don't want to pay for another program that I think will do more harm then good.

mommyinlove

I don't think you get the point.

Check out some of the statements in the media and on behalf of a wide range of family groups who are all dissatisfied with Harper's sop and who were, contrarily, supportive of Dryden's efforts to establish funding for provincially administered and locally operated day care.

Check out the popularity and utilization levels, as well as the tax payback on the Quebec plan over its first 10 years of operation.

I'm not expressing my own opinions so much as saying you don't seem to give any credence to any thing but your own circumstances.

I think you know what's best for you and your family but I think you, like Mr Harper, are irresponsible when you make the kinds of extrapolations from your own beliefs that you seem to be doing above.

As far as the 'cheap' aspect is concerned I don't know if anyone ever said these programs would be cheap - few valuable investments in the future are. I don't believe the $7/day should be a benchmark either and those who can afford to pay the full freight ought to.

It is availably and quality that is the real problem, not cost in my view.

You, apparently, don't pay any tax now so I'd have to say your objection in the last sentence is irrelevant. As to harm from daycare, I've already addressed your somewhat jaundiced personal views.

There is plenty of research, a lot of it intensive studies of the Quebec program that indicates daycare is not harmful and can be, in fact, a real benefit in an age of small families and fractured communities, not to mention single parent families.

I don’t think you’re being mean.

I do think you’re being far too subjective.

Can we respectfully agree to disagree?
Cool? I have read over everything posted to me and given it much thought. I don't think I will change anyones minds here and no one will change mine. You all have given me a lot to think about and a different point of view. I thank thoese who have done this without the swearing and name calling. I appreciate the time different people took to post to me. I tried to awnser most questions posted to me, Too bad that when I posted a question,I was just called "clueless" or "stupid".
I took the time to give my point of view and was slammed for the most part. It is fine to slam my point of view, I expected that and like deffending my side of the story. The personal attacks are silly and childish. It only makes a post look like it was written by someone who is very insecure. I like to post like I am talking to someone. It may not come out perfect but I am curious if some of these people would speak to me face to face like they "spoke" to me here?
Anyways thanks for the posts, I am off to enjoy the long weekend with my family.
Cheers
mommyinlove

Just read an interesting article on the real cost of harpo's childcare policy.

The payment of $100./month is being administered separately from the existing Canadian Child Tax Benefit (CCTB). This will create an entirely new bureaucracy and a massive marketing program to inform people of the need to apply. Hasn't harpo said he believes there is a need for less government? If harpo wanted to increase benefits to parents the infrastructure was already in place. The neo-cons have failed to mention that they are canceling the Young Child Supplement the existing CCTB offers parents of children up to the age of six. So on July 20 parents got their first installment of $100. and saw their CCTB payment was reduced by $20.75. In other words, instead of $3.28 a day, parents will actually be getting only $2.60. The wealthiest parents will get the full $3.28 because they never qualified for the CCTB. Unlike the CCTB the new benefit is fully taxable. The neo-cons set up a new bureaucracy to send out $100. cheques but will collect $224 million in additional federal income tax on the full $3.28 per day and not just on the measly $2.60 per day that they actually get to keep. The new income tax increase that harpo quietly passed on July 1 has added 200,000 low income families to the tax rolls. A non-partisan study on social policy has calculated that an Ontario two-earner family with net income of $30,000. will end up with just $199. after the cut in their CCTB and taxes are taken into account. So the benefit is really 54 cents per day which won't buy a coffee. The Ottawa Citizen obtained a copy of the neo-cons briefing book on childcare policy and it showed that the cons are very much aware that their approach will not work. There is a worry that childcare centres/providers are thinking families have an extra $100. per month to spend and taking advantage of this fact and increasing the rates. So daycare may cost more especially if your additional taxable income prevents you from qualifying for a child care subsidy.

So Hannibal, when you said people would wake up next tax season in regards to harpo's lying and shiftiness, you were right! The fall-out from this could be huge.

I wish thetyee was more like salon where threads are created and stay alive for as long as people post in them. This thread has been hijacked from the prison theme but there is no where else to go and comment on daycare issues. Not unless another story is written and then it disappears when it reaches the end of the page anyways. Quite frustrating.

Ditto.I agee with the sentiment Gee .
Mommy will never get it nor understand as she is incapable of rational thought .
Her perspective is that of the neo-Nazi's and their stupid so called child care program that they are totally incapable of realizing .

Thanks everyone for the support. Not that mommyinlove gets it. The lack of daycare opportunities in this country is appalling, but oh well, maybe with a new federal government we will actually get a national daycare program? (I am not going to hold my breathe, this was a recommendation in the 1970 Royal Commission of the Status of Women.) Mommyinlove, it’s great that you can stay home and offer daycare services to other families. But please quit with the telling me I am a good parent. For you know I could be an alcoholic or crackhead. I am not, but that’s not the point. How good a parent I am does nothing to solve the daycare shortages in this country. I see a national day-care program as a well to include special needs children in all aspects of society. If it takes people like Mr. Sinclair telling us to invest in kids instead of prisons, so be it. If takes a different government I don’t care as long as it gets done. Subsidies don’t work, if the day care providers don’t feel equipped to handle your child. My son is now 11, and is no longer young enough for day-care, but there are others like me who have special needs child, who need daycare. Not everyone can afford to stay at home and raise their children and our society needs to recognize that and act accordingly.

Good luck Neets.

I'm with Neets on the issue of national daycare and do agree with Neets that if people like Jim Sinclair has to say the obvious, it's up to us to be a bit more selective when we next vote. There was supposed to be a national day care system but it got shunted aside as did other progams. Kyota for one, the Kelowna accord for another. The sins of the Liberals let a small minority government get into power. They like Joe Clark decided that they would rule as a majority. Well the minority seems to be having a bit of a problem here and there. Now it seems that non bidding contracts for military aircraft might well come back to haunt them, as some otehr little dandies their supporters have been clamouring to get. Lets throw everyone doing the least litle thing out of line into some not built yet jail and leave them there. But the cash comes out of the same pocket.Yours and mine and even though our kids are well beyond day care ages I would willingly support such systems over more jails any time. Let's get an election real soon and see what the average tax payers really want. I don't think its 100 dollars a month and go find someone to look after the younger set. Sort of like close down the public schools , give the parents some money and let them decide where to buy an education for the children. Costs more but what the heck it makes the right wingers feel they are in control

Mommy, I think that the name calling stems from the frustrations that you haven't actually addressed the points raised by Hannibal, G West, et al. Your retorts have been based on very subjective opinions and are, in my opinion, laced with a touch of arrogance and mean spiritedness. I must admit that in a post several days ago, I used a bit of invective because your posts have been very insulting to my personal experience (and I won't go into detail here). What I'd like to see, is an objective response to aalborg's last post. What I'd also like to see is a little evidence for the claims that you make - especially the one statement regarding "low-cost" daycare as an incentive for mothers the return to work early and that it somehow is equated with less love for her child(ren). It's not agreement to disagree Mommy; it's that one side has presented logical arguements and you've deflected with biased unsupported statements.

Mommyinlove:

While I realize, as the rest of us do, that the natural bond between a mother and her child is stronger, yes, perhaps even stronger than the adult choice to mate, certain things must be said.

You can't live on love.

I can only assume that you don't have a worry for money... that you, unlike most moms who are forced to work to pay morgages and feed children, simply don't have that financial burden to deal with.

Must be nice.

But guess what.

A very large number of parents (and single parents, I might add) need daycare because they have no choice. Its either daycare, or welfare and live at home, getting bashed by neocons for being lazy and if daycare doesn't exist...

So while you have that wonderful love going on with your child or someone elses, and you are sold on yourself as being the best caregiver in the whole world because you maybe... don't work? Remind yourself that other parents have no choice but to work and that takes daycare and if the private sector isn't into it, and the government takes the same attitude as you, then what happens to the children who need to be looked after? What, the state gets to look after them now because parents can't work, they have to look after their kids? Is this what you are saying?

"When there are NO DAYCARE SERVICES TO BE HAD, you are telling us all that its fine to live off the government and be unemployed? Last I looked, work was part of a good example to set for children... and last I looked, children didn't mind playing with each other (if allowed) until their parents get home from work! And that being said, perhaps you should try working on a new perspective.

mommyinlove has no hope of working on a new perspective. She is one of harpo's hypocrites and we all know when you're programmed that way, there is no hope. Ever.