Don't be so obtuse BobbyPeru -
I never been an advocate of the NDP but about the only difference that I can see between Glen Clark and Gordon Campbell is the size of their shovels, (Campbell has the new and improved model capable of moving large amounts of taxpayer cash off the back of a dump truck.)

It's too bad he never learned how to work a shovel better than Jimmy's Chimpanzee.

That's right, we were so much better off under Glen Clark and his cronies.

Geez Peru, unclench, would ya... did you even read the article?

McMartin isn't saying this. I don't believe he was ever a fan of the last NDP regime. He has, in the past, defended the state of the books the NDP left for the Libs, raising legitimate questions about Campbell's and Collin's claims of a "structural deficit".

The article talks about how much the province relies on Federal transfer payments to keep it in balance, among other things.

I know the temptation to smear the NDP is great for you and your friends, but we're talking about the record of the Liberals and how we got from there to hear.

I continue to monitor this site in hope of a balanced and professional article. With exception for the ODD article from Rafe Mair - I see none.

This is a foolish statement. While it may be correct, it only presents one side of the picture. I see nothing about the misfortunes the Campbell government was dealt in their first two years of office. They inherited a bismal economy, and then were dealt SARS and 9/11 - which brought a sledgehammer to BC.

Both Campbell and Collins forecasted large deficits in their first two years (though not as large as those delivered, which is directly attributable to SARS).

You lefties can can dismiss it all you want. The Campbell government has done a great job in managing our finances.

Furthermore, the commodity prices have helped but it has been the BC Liberals excellent management of the portfolio which has really helped the public accounts. The NDP wouldn't let anybody mine or explore. Anytime a company talked about new mining, the NDP shut it down due to neighbourhood and environmental concerns.

The Liberals has drastically reduced red tape and regulations throughout the industry, which has contributed to massive increases....

BobbyPeru:

You gotta put this stuff into perspective. Mr. McMartin is neither an economist or a financier. He really understands little about the economy, but has formed an opinion based in large part on his ideologies.

Economic Analysts from independent major banks (CIBC, RBC, as well as the Bank of Canada, not Fraser Institute or CCPA) have all praised BCs economic performance and forecasts. All have credited the governments performance as a reason - alongside housing boom and commodity prices.....

I know it can be frustrating....

That's foolish Hooey Cap! "Financial Genius". I think not, Natural gas revenues are now more than twice those of Forestry. - I ain't no 'lefie' and I see no vision from the top other than gross mismanagement of our government resources. You sound unbalanced to me.

Mr. McMartin is neither an economist or a financier. He really understands little about the economy, but has formed an opinion based in large part on his ideologies.

And your credentials, Cap?

It is a myth that the ecconomy of BC is fantastic, it is government revenue that is on the upswing. It ain't trickling down.

Huge government spending on Olympic venues and RAV mask rel problems with BC's ecconomy. sure condo construction and housing starts are up, but that reflects the growth of population.

If it asn't for the grow-op ecconomy and illegal drug trade in BC, our ecconmy would tank.

Our politicians just can not get the "mega" project mentality out of their mind set. The 'big' deal will save the day for BC is their clarion call. Except for our power dams, mega projects have become almost white elephantsrecording the reign of one premier or another.

Campbell is a world class carpet bagger, sowing his seeds of ill will with greedy types who want more. Anyone, including a fence post with hair could have defeated the NDP in 2001. The ghost of FastFerries and Glen Clark made the win easy. But what did we get; an evil politcal party of ne'er do wells and ass kissers, who trampled on Parlimetary rules like they were a 'scrap of paper'. Even a drunk driving charge could not get this loser out of office.

Internationaly, we are seen as a ship of fools, piloted by confidence tricsters. Ithink the head of Turin's Olympic Committee was trying to warn us.......

don't forget about gordo's brother. he's the smartest guy on the planet and gordo probably gets a lot of tips from him.

is it just me or is carole taylor getting fat these days?

It is very easy to get rid of debts and have a large bank acoount when somebody sells his home, land, starves his family and sells them into slavery to eternity.
Nothing left, but lots of imaginary money in the accountbooks.

It is also easy to become rich through legalized crime, benefiting special interests.

BC is being devastated for a few showpiece areas. Our roads are falling to pieces, without any repairs, from the huge ore and logging trucks, taking our real wealth abroad.

Our social infrastructure is in shambles. The recommendations of the Filman Commission on the forest fire situation were not implemented and the whole interior is a tinderbox, hoping for a miracle.

My wife had an unfortunate accident and had to spend 3 days in hospital last week. The beds are not made, or changed, the reduced staff is running in circles, trying to cope with the load. The food is total wasteful garbage, made somewhere, probably outside of BC and trucked in, heated up in microwaves that kill all values. Full of chemical junk, uneatable. It was so disgusting that about 80% of it went into garbage in her room, as the patients couldn't eat it.

The laundry is done God knows where, spreading germs. The staff's uniforms are washed in Alberta, or whereever, packed damp into bags and half of it arrives mouldy and unusable, back to the laundry.

These are the actions of our "fiscally responsible, business friendly government"

Mr.Campbell is at best a bloody fool, and so are his supporters and followers.

Future generations of BC will pay a heavy price for the actions of this financial genius. It is very easy to be a financial genius whan one accepts the responsibility of being an economic idiot, or thief.

But our foreign shareholders must be happy and that't all that counts. Adam Smith said so, according to the advertising agency called Fraser Institute and its associated economics professors. Or did he?

Ed Deak. Big Lake.

It's worse than all that Grumpy, The "Ass L.....'s" actually think he's sincere.

Grumpy - people follow a good economy, not a bad one. There are people moving into BC for jobs.

Anyway - that is all I have to say on this topic. It is a waste of energy to read some of this nonsense, let alone respond to it....

Keep living in your negative/unproductive world....it is passing you by.

Who owns BC now thanks to gordo and his fraser institute cronies?
A great sucess story, just look at the awesome job cn rail has done!
Promoting urban sprawl and gambling are the hallmarks of these stewards of our great province.

Consume yourself to Death (aka: Capitalism):

"Keep living in your negative/unproductive world....it is passing you by."

I think that I am productive and contribute to the society I live and work in. I also believe that critical thinking is important and not negative as I always consider ideas on how to make things better - the common good; rather than the good of common shares!

Born in BC 51 years ago, I have seen big changes and things must change no question. But it is my belief that the Province, as well as local municpalities are being led by a ship of fools! Politicians who lack moral fibre, as well ny sense of honesty, are running the show.

Sure their are exceptions, but they are few and far between. The politico's are in someone elses pocket.

Fait Lux, dead right, our hospitals are a disgrace. Vancouver General's entrance is like a hotel, masquerading the fact that there isn't enough space for patients. Surgeries are done and patients sent out far too soon, only to return with infections etc.

The present NDP/Liberal government (it is a matter of tweedle dee and tweedle dum and the NDP leader is dun!) with the backing of radio Libramercial shows and regional broadcast extolling the virtues of the ecconomy has been so successful spreading the propaganda of booming ecconomy, the public fails to see the massive rents in it.

Why are we paying South American labourers $1000 a month for RAV construction? Because it is a Liberal project that is hugely over budget! Labourers in Alberta are getting $3000 plus a month.

As I stated before, it is the illegal drug trade that has kept our ecconomy afloat. It is drug money that keeps interior towns ecconomies going! That's why Campbell built casino's - a perfect venue to launder money! and how much of that laundered money goes into politicians pocket's?

Come on Cap, I'm still waiting to hear what makes your credentials so much better than McMartins.

Capitalism, the vast majority of people coming here are immigrants, being sponsored by familly members. Then there is the illegal immigrants who flow into BC, where working for cash is the norm in many asian resturants,etc. Notice that many cafes' and eateries do not take credit cards? Why? They do not want to show cash flow. No paper trail.

What is productive Cap.? Debt? Big box stores? Is an artist productive? I guess you see murdered children in provincial care is very productive. Or killing off the elderly because they are not productive. you scare me Cap. because of your definition of productive. Funny, a little chap in Germany with a wee moustache had his own definition of productive and sold it to the German's in the 1920's. By 1945 he wasn't very productive at all!

Cappy/Maybelle
WHat Sars crisis in BC? That's one thing the health system here DID get right.

You live in an imaginary world!

I also was wondering where maybel's "sars" crisis in vancouver came from. And when he says

I thought that he was describing himself. As a fellow businessman maybel, could you do me a favour and post your real name, or a least who you are associated with. Therefore, if I ever come across you in the business world, I can turn and run.

Welcome back Will. Your take on the Cabpell gang of managers sure set off a fire storm. By gosh using federal numbers in transfer payments can sure inflame some folks. Nothing is worse than those who cannot see, except those who refuse to see.

Did anyone notice that in the last five years a lot of medical services got cut, drugs delisted, and not returned. Not to mention schools, seniors housing, torn up contracts et al. I recall when Gordon was a store owner in Vancouver just how long it lasted. His investments in a place directly across from the rubber stadium had financial difficulties. But heck, the Liberal supporters will some how blame that on the previous governemt. So here we sit, just about where we started under Gordo with a lot less programs in place, extended health care lists and folks payig to get their eyes checked by some machine. are we better off? I think not

ubiquitous:

It really hurt our tourism industry, which at the time (commodity lull) was propping our economy up. Asian and American tourism flatlined....

DPL:

I don't mind debating the impact of the BC Liberals on social programs. Luckily, I am a healthy 30-something male - so I can't say much. These are areas that I don't care much about. As far as education, I am quite satisfied with the quality my kids are receiving....

What I do mind is some of the ranting fools on this site that hammer Campbell for fiscal management in addition to everything else.....taxes are down, spending is up, budgets are balanced. Sure, they have had some assistance - but they have managed the economy appropriately and effectively.

verso:

I don't want to get into those. I will say that you would be surprised with my level of eduction. I am certain I have more financial knowledge (both classroom and hands-on) than Mr. McMartin.

He is just a journalist - and I tend not to take editorials from non-experts seriously.

Let's face it, the average taxpayer and politician doesn't give a damn about reducing the accumulated debt. The theory being, they live for now. In fact, modern day political thinking and maybe even the theory of good government is to pay as little as possible on it.

Albertamerica was able to pay its debt simply because it ran out of ideas on how to spend the enormous amount of oil revenue.
So rather than pave existing roads, governor Klein gave his people cash presents.

Anyway - I thought BC was one of the "have" provinces - as opposed to Quebec which is not.

Did you notice that provincial spending on Health Care is up about $3 billion per year from 5 years ago?

I don't want to get into those.

How convenient...

I am certain I have more financial knowledge (both classroom and hands-on) than Mr. McMartin.

And how would you know that?

Even so, what does it matter? Anyone can research and form an argument, you don't need a masters in economics to do that.

Besides, if you take issue with what McMartin has written it would serve your argument better to address his points rather then make lame attacks about his perceived educational background.

Did you notice that provincial spending on Health Care is up about $3 billion per year from 5 years ago?

And what exactly are we getting for that investment?

Frankly, it's difficult to see where improvements have been made but I posted the facts in response to another of the typically misinformed statements about "Health Care cuts", this one from DPL.

Of course, if I try to discuss changes to the system to iimrpove effeciency and effectiveness of the money spent then I am immediately branded as being in favour of an American style system, or a sell out to Big Business.

If more money is being spent with no improvement in benefits what's your solution, spend more money?

Not to nitpick maybell (but I will anyway), but was the decline in tourism not due (mostly) to the decline american dollar. The impact of sars was felt mostly in Toronto and had minimal impact in Vancouver (and what impact it had was mainly based on panic and was short lived). You see maybel, it's ironic that you heap (unfounded) criticism on McMartin. At least he has the capacity to check facts to support his arguements. Did you miss that lesson?

What bothers me is when an NDP government has deficits there are screaming headlines of incompetence but when right-wing governments have deficits ala Gordon Campbell, Mike Harris... There is nary a negative word.

The press should not be part of the governments PR department. If the left and right do the same bad policy it should be equally blasted.

Politicians and journalists are both having image problems and it is this double standard that is contibuting to it.

Well I think DPL is referring to specific jobs being cut, and certain drugs being de-listed. I don't think he/she was making a claim that less money was being spent (though I won't speak for him/her).

Obviously more money doesn't necessarily equal improved services, but the cost of everything else is going up, why wouldn't the cost of health care?

I don't know what the answer is... but I'm not convinced the BC Liberals do either (It's been what 6-7 years now?). The efficiencies they created on the backs of health care workers hasn't seemed to help... maybe they're looking in the wrong place to create efficiencies?

The biggest cost increased in healthcare is in prescription drugs.

American Dollar was stong in 2001 when SARS arrived. SARS and 9/11 kept the world from traveling.

Unfounded? I already said this was a completely one-sided editorial. For example, he neglected to mention SARS, 9/11 or the tech bust....

Further, he writes that only Collins and Campbell were surprised by the large deficits. I said, they had forecasted large deficits in their first 2.5 years and a balanced budget by the end of three years..they accomplished this.

This article was not about social programs or the economy - it was about the public purse....

I think my criticism is very founded...

Finally, there are few facts, this was a very biased opinion. He has the capacity to check his facts because he is a paid journalist. He writes better than I do to.....

I would never give the guy a lesson in English!

sez ubiquitous.

I agree, but don't bother. I've asked before. He has no qualifications and no experience - He can't comment on the state of Health Care because he's never gotten sick - He says he's successful but I don't believe it.

Unless he's found a way to market tap water as the product of a spring in Spuzzum I don't think he's doing anything much except posting half-baked ideas and incomplete thoughts here at the Tyee.

I sometimes think he's a high school student with a lot of time on his hands.

a most amusing story and following thread.

In these times of confusion, everyone needs to be amused from time to time. Thank goodness for The Tyee online and the Georgia Straight on paper.

Life would be so, well, less amusing without these publications.

No, this is amusing...

http://www.publiceyeonline.com/archives/001626.html#comments

Great article as usual Will even though I realize you're so left-wing that you actually ran as a Socred against Dave Barrett in his own riding. Yep, real lefty you are.

Without the federal Liberals throwing cash at the provinces and without the NDP getting us through the cutback years of the 90's and of course the turn-around in commodities Gordon and his bunch of whiners wouldn't have a pot to piss in. Nice to see Fed money has finally got us back to where we were when the NDP left office.

For those that disagree with the article I would only say that when right-wingers like Will McMartin can see through the crap it might be a good idea to actually have some numbers to back up your assertions that he's an NDP toadie and lying about Gordon being a financial genius.

I know I'll be happy to discuss the NDP record in the 90's or the Liberal record since with anyone on this board, anytime.

Hey Cap. I was in business in Vancouver from 1984 to 2004, ran a store in a tourist oriented market. 9/11 was a death knell for tourist spending, my sales drpooed 50% in one year. The problem was, hidden by 9/11, tourist spending was slowly dropping since the mid 90's.

I opened the store in '84, hoping to catch the Expo 86 boom, but it was not to be. Tourists came to the fair and went home. Same for the cruise ships, Alaska cruises were cheapie cruises and guess what, those who took cheapie cruises were cheap!

SAR's in Vancouver was minimal, as it was Toronto that took the big hit.

So when we hear of tourist spending, it is the major hotels, bars, cafe's, and other eateries that benefit. Iwould say the pinnicle of tourist activity in Vancouver was 1990 to 1998 and since 1998 it has been downhill ever since.

If we believe the Libermercials on CORUS or the beat of the ecconomic drum on Global, one would think properity was everywhere. I think not as there are other actions at play, including a massive personel debtload and deferred spending, CHIPS etc.

I think the ecconomy is sick and only being kept afloat by drug money, government mega projects, and silly investments. It just can't last!

Gordo and hi brother are a bunch of slick willies, denuding BC for their American masters. Harper will do the same!

It's quite amusing to read all these comments from the doomsayers and negative bashers. I guess you're right with your assessments of the economy - all the facts and figures must be wrong, but your beliefs and observations are correct because, well, you say so.

My income is up another 20% this year, similar to the year before - so are my taxes. I must be doing something wrong, 'cuz I think that's ok, and all you lefties think I'm an idiot.

Seems to me you're the one claiming all the facts and figures are wrong. I use BC Stats for my arguments, not Campbell's brother. But then I've noticed a disregard for statistics on the political right. They prefer Van Sun editorial writers from the Fraser Institute.

one more thing...

I laughed at this headline: "Gordon Campbell. Finacial Genius?" - reminds me of a headline I saw a year or two ago: "George Bush, Grand Strategist?"

You can guess the rest.

Capitalism [I don't mind debating the impact of the BC Liberals on social programs. Luckily, I am a healthy 30-something male - so I can't say much.]
No you can't say much as you & your ilk have a god whose only goal is me, me, $$$me

EDITED FOR POSSIBLE LIBEL. BC Dude you are on notice and will be blocked if you continue to risk defamation on this site. -- Tyee editor

Here is the real truth
[url="http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/"]http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/[/url]

[url="http://www.straight.com/content.cfm?id=17357"]http://www.straight.com/content.cfm?id=17357[/url]

Mel from Calgary, The reason that the NDP was mud-raked by Canwest or Glo-Bull TV is they are Owned By the Fiberals & their Masters!

But let's talk what I find "amusing". What I find amusing is people with no economics background attacking gov't economic statistics as being one-sided because they're publicized by a Socred. In fact, I find the reaction to McMartin's articles so amusing I look forward to them for weeks in advance knowing the political right will sputter on endlessly but will never use actual stats to back up their disagreement. Instead we'll hear tired anecdotes about some ex-girlfriend's brother from Logtown.

Amusing? Definitely.

That figure is nearly identical to the $224 million accumulated deficit Gordon Campbell and his B.C. Liberals inherited when they were first elected to government in 2001.

$124 million=$224 million? Nearly identical? I count a $100 million difference.

We could give it back to the Fed so that the numbers are identical? Although that will hardly make a dent in the numbers which show massive federal increases in transfers to BC.

And what did we get for that 100 million anyway? Better hospitals? Better education? Well, maybe we should give it back since the Libs have proven that they can't manage all that federal largesse very well.

So, Frank maybe you could expalin how we became a have not province.

Sure, do you understand how equalization works? Give it a go.

Libs just announced a winfall in excess of 3 billion, I'd say put 1 billion on the 2010 Winter Olympics & 1 billion on health care & public education
(I personally don't agree w/the olympics, it's just another way to keep the workin man poor)

We're not a "have not" province anymore.

Here are some facts, from BMO Economics:

British Columbia’s real GDP growth rate of
3.5% was the second highest in the nation for
the second consecutive year in 2005, fueled
by a construction boom. Growth will rise to
4.0% in 2006 as the construction boom
continues and strengthens, thanks to
continued strong housing demand and a
myriad of major projects, including
preparations for the 2010 Winter Olympics.
Over 2007-10, growth will continue to be
strong, at well over 3%.
Strong performance in 2005
In 2004, BC posted real GDP growth of 4.0%
as the forest products sector — one of the
province’s traditional economic engines —
boomed. Combined, the forestry and logging,
wood product manufacturing and pulp and
paper manufacturing industries advanced
15.2% in 2004. Remarkably, in 2005, BC’s
economy grew almost as fast (3.5%) as in
2004 despite the boom in the forest products
sector coming to an end. In 2005, the forestry
and logging, wood product manufacturing
and pulp and paper manufacturing industries
combined gained only 1.2%.
The goods sector grew 3.9% in 2005, down
sharply from 7.6% growth in 2004. The main
reason for the slower growth was forest
products, as mentioned above, but the
construction sector and the mining and oil
and gas sector posted slower growth as well.
The construction sector continued to boom in
2005, growing 5.0%, though well down from
growth of 8.7% in 2004 and 13.8% in 2003.
The utilities sector was the only goodsproducing
sector that bettered its 2004
performance. It rose 8.4% thanks to an
11.8% increase in electric power generation.
Growth in the services sector, on the other
hand, rose from 3.0% in 2004 to 3.5% in
2005. The sharpest gains were in wholesale
trade (9.3%), transportation and warehousing
(5.8%), information and culture (5.1%),
business services (4.7%) and retail trade
(4.4%), but every service sector registered
positive growth in BC in 2005.
By expenditure category, consumption was
strong, government spending weak and
investment very strong. The external sector
was a significant drag on growth
Strong labour markets supported consumer
spending in 2005. Employment rose a nationleading
3.3% in 2005, and the unemployment
rate dropped sharply from 7.2% in 2004 to
5.9% in 2005. Labour income rose 6.3%. Not
surprisingly, consumers continued to spend.
Retail sales rose 6.0% in 2005, real
consumption expenditure rose 4.6%.
Investment was a major source of strength
for BC’s economy in 2005, with real
investment rising 8.2%. Residential
investment rose 8.6%, as housing starts rose
5.3% to 34,667 — an eleven-year high.
Government investment rose 6.0%. Business
investment advanced 9.7%, with spending on
machinery and equipment climbing 16.7%
but, perhaps surprisingly, spending on nonresidential
structures declining 1.8% — its
second consecutive annual decline.
Despite a 10.0% jump in provincial
government spending in 2005-06, real
government spending on current goods and
services rose only 1.5% in 2005. This is
because much of the 2005-06 spending
came late in the fiscal year, and will therefore
show up in calendar 2006 rather than
calendar 2005. Indeed, a $1 billion signing
bonus for provincial public service workers
was included in 2005-06 spending, even
though the fiscal year was over three months
ago and the amount has still not been paid
out. The provincial government ran a surplus
estimated at $1.475 billion in 2005-06, as
high natural gas prices boosted natural
resource royalties and income tax collections
were stronger than expected.
Real exports (international and
interprovincial) rose 2.9% in 2005, while real
imports rose 6.0%. On a nominal basis,
however, export growth slightly exceeded
import growth, 6.5% to 6.2%. BC’s top five
international merchandise exports are, in
order by value: lumber, natural gas, coal,
pulp, and copper. The value of international
merchandise exports increased 10.6% in
2005. The main reason for the advance was
higher prices for natural gas and coal.

neocon, so can you explain the equalization formula to me and NLN? Or do you just like saying that regardless of not being able to understand it?

You guys have gone quiet on me. Here's a hint, look at property taxes.

neocon, no comment with your quote?

Look, if you guys needed "google" time you could have just said so. Not that its light reading anyway. I doubt that some poor soul has tried to write a wiki on it.

You notice how incredibly quiet it has gotten all of sudden Frank?

neocon,

don't waste your time with these guys. i don't even bother to find stuff you read about everyday in the business section.

g west,

i have a minor in economics and that is only the beginning! though i always appreciate your humourous jabs! you are quite entertaining!!

Frank;
I spent some time looking at historical provincial budgets expecting to engage in a conversation. Didn't know it was a pop quiz....

Can almost hear the wind whistling through those Norwegian pinetrees that TaxCutter was so fond of... I'm sure we all remember Norway, that shining example of right-wing, oops, left-wing, daycare.

As for equalization, no I don't understand the formula. Do you?

Ha, you popped a quiz on me NLN, so why can't I use your question for a pop quiz of my own?

The fact is, equalization is not what many people portray it as and therefore many people draw the wrong conclusions from it.

As your question relates to the record of the NDP while in office why don't we simply look at BC Stats' year by year comparison from the Socred era onwards?

When doing so the NDP looks a lot better than the Socreds and in many years as good as the Libs look currently.

When you also then look at the federal transfers I think the picture becomes pretty clear as to who did best with what.

Cappy/Maybelle:
I keep records of everything I post - especially when it deals with you and your imagination. As for example your opinions about public transit in Greater Vancouver.

Alcibiades is right. Don't expect anything from those two. Neocon didn't even manage to adjust the formatting for the fluff stuff he posted from BMO marketing.

We had this out once before, don't you remember. I think your minor in economics is VERY minor. You still don't appear to understand tax policy and you posted a pile of unbelievable nonsense about that the other day too.

You better hope your luck holds in Vegas cause you’ll never make it in the real world.

In a word? No. I consider myself one of the many who understands it partially. I assure you its not caused by an allergy to reading legal papers, its because a lot of it just doesn't make sense to me. Like why Alberta and the Maritimes, five provinces out of ten, aren't included. I can say I understand it enough to know when someone is referring to it wrongly.

Anyhoo, property taxes are a huge factor in why BC went from have-not to have.

When doing so the NDP looks a lot better than the Socreds and in many years as good as the Libs look currently.

When you also then look at the federal transfers I think the picture becomes pretty clear as to who did best with what. Frank

Well, I spent some time looking at historical provincial budgets and I don't agree with that. Great thing about the Tyee - we can agree to disagree.

As for my pop quiz, you were the one that volunteered - I know I'll be happy to discuss the NDP record in the 90's or the Liberal record since with anyone on this board, anytime.

To put it another way, even the politicos can't decide if there is a fiscal imbalance between provinces and between the provinces and the feds and what the amount is if there is one. And they have people who are there to do nothing except understand the equalization formula.

It all depends on what you count and what you don't and too often what's included, or perhaps more importantly, excluded, in the numbers makes no sense.

Not true, I volunteered to discuss the issue, not to be a "Ask Jeeves" about gov't finances. Your question was really open ended. It would be akin to me asking you if why since western civilization is so great the Romans were overran by a bunch of barbarians.

Yes we can, but you've made me curious about what budgets you were looking at and why you drew the conclusion you did. Looked at it recently? Have a link?

Like I said, I prefer BC Stats for obvious reasons when it comes to impartiality.

I found budget details here -
http://www.fin.gov.bc.ca/archive/budgets.htm

Geez NLN, ever read Gibbon? Can you be more specific about what exactly?

Frank - Like coaches governemnts get too much blame in bad times and too much credit in good times. Within the narrow range of taxation and expenditure options it's interesting how it reveals the extent of the divide between the posters here.

What stands out to me is how both (all) sides of the discussion complain about inappropriate spending priorities whereas, I prefer for all governments to have less involvement in our lives. To me it's the most honest and rational approach. Care to join me?

In a nutshell, let's say our illustrious premier, we'll call him Wile E Coyote, has a 10 billion dollar surplus and the previous premier had a surplus of only 5 billion. So based on that, Wile E is a genius right? Okay, but then we find out that the feds gave the previous premier 2 billion in transfers and gave Wile E 10 billion. Is Wile E still a genius? Hmm, maybe not, we'll have to dig further.

So we do and find out that although spending has increased in certain areas, outcomes have gotten worse. That makes Wile E look pretty bad.

However, others would argue that that 10 billion in transfers was due to the bad management by the previous premier? Okay, fair enough but if that's so then the surplus should still be bigger than the increased federal transfers and the previous premier's surpluses combined right? It isn't. And the outcomes in several areas of government are still worse off.

That, as I said, in a nutshell, is my argument. Which McMartin the Socred seems to agree with.

I'm not saying that nothing good ever happens, I'm simply looking at the overall inputs and outputs and saying the emperor has no clothes.

I don't believe I have argued this with you but its where the line is drawn that bothers me. I don't like "my stuff" being called luxuries and the other side's being called "infrastructure".

Frank, I'm back - got distracted with work for a bit.

You're right, even the politicos can't decide...as to why have-not Quebec supplies $7/day daycare or that Hydro Quebec's income might be exempt from the formula or why Manitoba charges less than market rates for electricity and then needs equalization, I can't explain...welcome to Canada.

How does the expression go?...There are no atheists in foxholes nor conservatives when the subsidies are being handed out...

bada-boom

So I take it we're all agreed that we can avoid the topic of equalization until one of us is able to explain it in plain english to the others...

And the outcomes in several areas of government are still worse off.
- Frank

Except that the debate over the outcomes is just as fuzzy and difficult as the discussion over equilization.

neocon
Even with $7/day daycare, which con artists are all so uptight about, Quebec already returns about 50% of the total outlay for daycare in increased tax revenues.

And has better distaff participation in the economy than other provinces (a real improvement from what used to be the case). In other words, Quebec is now less of a 'have-not' province than it used to be. At least partly, because of an investment in people - which is exactly the kind of thing neoconmen are always outraged over, selfishly and foolishly, I'd say.

Why isn't - and wouldn't - that kind of investment in ones provincial economy be a better tax expenditure than, say, the Olympics or the Gateway?

And it wouldn't have to be $7/day daycare either. That's just a shibboleth of the right.

To me it's both short sighted and narrow minded - not to mention being wrong.

Just to add, if average house prices in Vancouver were still around $150,000 I am under the impression we'd still be a "have-not" province. Even though I realize there are 32 other major variables.

Sort of, but not completely. I can, I think, fairly attack Campbell all day for seemingly turning a blind eye to child deaths by not wanting to pay for the advocate. Or hospital emergencies actually closing, or nuumber of beds being cut. Those seem pretty real.

Penny of prevention worth pound of cure and all that.

Or for things such as this case:

2006 BCSC 900 Fahlman v Community Living B.C. & Others;

The result of which is now being appealed by the Province.

He and his gang are vulnerable on all kinds of fronts.

You can find the judgment here:

http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/jdb-txt/sc/06/09/2006bcsc0900.htm

Thanks, Will McMartin.

I just think the above bears repeating since nary a word of this 5.8 million deficit was reported on by our ever-subservient, not interested in investigating anything, we'd rather be kow-towing, MSM news media.

And this is what a number of us have been saying all along here on Tyee. The Campbell government doesn't like the process of governance but they love BIG government. It's never been bigger... or spent more on itself. And these are the same guys who whine about BIG unions.

Yet expenditures on themselves...on general government.... soared - while expenditures on public services....health, social services and education, pale in comparison.

All together now: Gordon Campbell loves BIG government....and the bigger....and the more expensive the better.

Well said. It's nice that someone can finally see beyond the cleverly cultivated art of image... to the heart of darkness of sheer "hooey".

Well done, Will, and The Tyee.

G West: I understand what you're saying but your logic is wrong.

Quebec is more of a have-not province because of the subsidy. As an example, if daycare only costs me $7 in Quebec than say $50 here in BC, would I have an extra $43 to spend/invest somewhere else? Maybe, if taxes were the same - but they're not - Quebecers are taxed more. Plus, extra money for the Quebecer might be spent at Old Orchard Beach Maine. The daycare worker earns the same (assumption) in both provinces, except in BC the daycare worker is taxed less.

Frank: I thought the main factor lifting BC out of have-not status was natural gas royalties.

...and thanks for that link, G West.

Here's a little excerpt from David Schreck's commentary about the case:

neocon
Wrong! As always.

Then BC is still a have not province because of the effect of past federal tranfers. You don't understand at all.

Quebec is building its talents in its work force - we're wasting ours picking on the mentally handicapped.

I'm away for two weeks - you guys fight over it.

Cheers all

G West:

Have a good two weeks away.

Have a great holiday, G West. :-)

And welcome back from your holiday, "Jeeves" ;-)...good to read ya again, Frank.

I thought royalties (and fed tranfers) were the big reason for the fiscal surplus and not the have-not status. Within the formula the conversion of a physical asset into a financial one is not 1:1 is it? In other words if I have a known billion worth of natural gas in the ground does it only show up on equalization if I extract it? Of course there's an argument that resources shouldn't be in the formula at all because it is simply the conversion of an asset.

The US doesn't have equalization, they believe that property prices and wage differentials etc are a better way of "equalizing". I can see their point, it is simpler.

Unfortunate child deaths have occured under most governments. The funding or not of the Advocate isn't the sole solution. I'm not sure that the number of beds has actually been reduced, more stats info or another "Health Care cuts" shot?

It was great being up your way again Lynn, I'd move there tomorrow if it was up to me alone. But actually I was only there a few days, the rest of my absence was spent working. Lots going on here right now.

NLN, I know child deaths occur under every gov't. How can I forget Trevor Lautens of the Van Sun mentioning the child whose name I forget (Mathew?) dying on the NDP watch. He ended every column calling on the NDP to resign en masse over it. You don't see the Vancouver Sun doing that now even though deaths have increased and the absolutely appalling decision to cut the advocate.

I'm not saying the advocate is the sole solution, what I'm saying is the NDP created that position to help the problem and cutting the position was a bad decision which even Libs recognize now.

Two ways to answer that, one, I'm not sure either but I know their promise to add 5,000 beds more than the NDP never happened. Two, its not a "health care shot" to ask why extra health care dollars sent to BC by Paul Martin has not resulted in better care. Is it? Because in the mid 90's Paul Martin was cutting health care and the provincial NDP were running deficits to make up the difference and all I heard from the Sun was complaints about the increase in the deficit and isn't that Paul Martin an economic wunderkind. To be honest, I don't even think the Libs are passing on all the federal dollars that are supposed to go to health. Sure, there's been an increase but the numbers I've seen don't match the promises made at that federal-provincial conference.

If things are so good, why are the disabled of this province living on $856 per month? Why must we live in abjet poverty while the Campbell Liberals crow about how great they are? A society is judged by how it treats its most vulnerable. The Government of British Columbia has inflicted such financial hardship upon the disabled that the current suicide rate for our community is skyrocketing. It matters not if you are a left wing/ rightwing or any other wing. The reality is that our province is killing the disabled. Congradulatons to all who have not spoken out about this. You are part of the problem.

It's difficult making good news look like a disaster, but if anyone can do it the posters here can.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the economy is running very smoothly right now. It may not last forever, but with near full employment, we are basking in a warm sun.
What do child deaths have to do with this ?

Show me an article's discussion that's never meandered and I'll show you an article no one read.

I see it as sort of how my daughter sees her allowance. Sure she could just be happy money fell from the sky or she could take an interest in the economics of her world and decide for herself if I'm a financial genius or a miser.

Hey noleftnut, (what happened to it?), the figures you quoted above on the fantastic "growth rate" of BC are fraudulent, economist garbage, as are all GDP and "productivity" figures.

Totally meaningless, because they don't distinguish between genuine progress, valuable production and the sale of capital goods, the rebuilding of infrastructure after fires and disasters, depletion, where the money goes and what it does, and a myriad other factors that should be accounted as debits.

In any case, monetarey figures can not be used in economic calculations, because they're not realities, but infinitely variable, often violence induced temporary perceptions. Unless we come up with another system of measurement, we'll be going downhill, while the phoney figures report climbing.

Also, since bank deregulation money has became a licence for energy control, issued by a special interest sector for its own benefit and for colonization purposes. Therefore, it has lost its real value as an instrument of trade and barter.

When we come to the NDP's "dismal economic performance", let us also remember the Asian flu, caused by speculators playing games with hedge funds, ruining the lives of hundreds of millions of people, including good many here in Canada, also the role of big business punishing the people of BC for electing and NDP government, which would happen again. The real name of these actions is called blackmail with the use of the prceived power of imaginary capital.

Such economic "growth" figures remind me of wartime propaganda, always reporting great victories. The Germans were winning WW2 until Hitler put a gun into his mouth.

No business could survive with accounting systems used by economists, yet people fall for this fraud.

Ed Deak.

As Ed says, our measurement of economic growth doesn't make sense. Just think,we have a system where killing every fish in a river and selling them shows up as a plus. Now in our heads we know that that doesn't make sense yet our system doesn't reflect the fact it doesn't make sense. There is no cost in killing portions of the planet. Under the present system it is conceivable we will get richer and richer until we're all dead. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a method of accounting that reflected our actual values and treated our environment and children as assets and not as either valueless or even worse, a cost?

That might sound airy-fairy but regulation is simply an admission that our accounting is a failure. Because if our economic system made sense we wouldn't have to have the same degree of regulation, the system itself would encourage positive outputs.

Ed, Ed, Ed,...man, they must be growing some pretty good BC bud up there 'cuz you're sure smokin' somethin'. In any event, you crack me up.

OK now, let's get serious. Please, please tell David Dodge, Gordon Thiessen, John Crow plus Bennie and the Feds, Alan Greenspan, Paul Volker that they've got it all wrong. Tell FASB that as well.

I'll be looking for your textbook.

Many's the time I have excoriated "them" with the F.A.C.T. that the Liberals popped into power just as the NDP got a handle on the economy and were beginning to turn it around (and all this without the windfalls!). The fifth columnist Clark then administered the coup de grace, by giving the Libs something they could chew at, the NDP themselves having put in exemplary performances over the previous 6 years, rescuing the province from the Socreds (which morphed into the Libs).............

http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntn11279.htm

Gee! Kind of puts the boots to Capitalism and IAMbic pentabmeter.......

Neocon, I don't smoke, or drink, or take any medications. My conclusions are based on about 60 years of historical studies and 24 of economics. I have taken part in many worldwide economic conferences, including several by the World Bank and nobody broke what I've written. Also, my Principle has been used in a number of PhD dissertations and reamains unbroken. All this is on record and can be found.

Economics are a boring, childish subject, so you'll never see a textbook from me, because I'm far too busy with more interesting things than economic idiocies. The only reason I'm on these blogs is that I found some of you very funny and I fought communism for 45 years, and now I'm fighting its idiot twin, capitalism till I croak, as my duty as a human being to prevent crimes against present and future generations.

You bring Dodge and the rest of them on this list and I'll be very happy to call them frauds, because that's what they are. Without the slightest hesitation.

When banks in certain countries are permitted to create imaginary capital to take over and exploit the resources of others, while enslaving them, that to me is a crime wave, regardless of what some two bit crooks claim for "wealth creation".

Cheers, Ed.

The market will sort out itself, because it has to.
The nonmarket ( new word ) cannot balance, because it doesn't have means to do it. But they are trying to make a new economy. Go ahead and invest in it if you will.
Resources are easy to access, if you have an original idea.
I am sure our banks are as in good as shape as any others.

I noticed some questions as to Will's credentials. He has examined the public accounts of B.C. for over twenty years and has a track record of accuracy. That counts more than a Ph.D. Interesting and perceptive article.

We don't have "markets to sort themselves out", because they're controlled by a few oligopolies and cartels, therefore are not self regulating, as they should be.

When the world's grain and food supply is controlled by 5 or 6 mega corporations, who decide what the producers will get and what the public will pay, the system of "free markets" and "free enterprise" becomes the same cruel hoax as the communists' "workers paradise".

In any case, all extremist theologies, ideologies and economic theories are run and controlled by the same predator class, who always manage to come to the top.

We should remember the anti cartel and trust laws, when many corporations, like AT&T were forced to break up, because they became too big and beyond public contol, like involvements in military coups and private armies. Now governments are jumping for joy when corporations merge and take over others to become "more competitive".

In other words, powerful enough to walk over anybody. This is not a market, but a criminal system of extortion, blackmail and murder.

Wealth is the temporary control of energy and can not be created, only taken from other sectors, or the ecology.

This is where the crime waves by ideologies start and ultimately self destruct, but not before ruining and taking the lives of millions and the ecology.

Ed Deak.

For all the rhetoric here, Better off under Glenn Clark? Get Real people!!! 3.5% growth and 4.5% unemployment. Compare that to the Clark years.

This article is biased but makes some good points. First is that Gordon Campbell likes government. He is not the only one. Voters like big government. Voters like big spending government. QED, we have big spending government.

On the issue of federal transfers, the Martin government significantly increased them after a more than ten year freeze so this is misleading as all provinces have seen a similar increase.

The NDP response to the account statement was indeed pathetic:

Ummmm, and increase in income tax levels tells us that more people are working and more are making good wages because at low wage levels people do not pay provincial tax. In my case, my Receiver General remittances are 50% higher than they were five years ago. That is a good thing because those remittances are what pay for the programmes people want to use.

The NDP really has to be a more effective opposition. They simply let the government away with too much. Picking at statistics means nothing to the average voter.

Anyway, for most people in BC things are great. The disaffected and bitter will always be critical. They have the time to do so.

Ed,

Our standard of living, quality of life, life expectancy, social infrastructure and economic confidence seem to run counter to your doom and gloomness.

Remember, your computerized voice would never be heard here if it weren't for capitalism. I'm not saying life couldn't be better, but market incentives (profits) is the primary fuel for ingenuity. Not always, but more often than not. The steady-cam technology that lets you watch Nature was invented by the military in their quest to steady a tank gun while going 30 mph.

I don't think "wealth is the temporay control of energy" as you purport. Hell, I don't even know what that means. I do believe that health is wealth - which goes back to my original sentence.

Things were great for most of the people in all past empires and similar robber economies, until they all crashed.

Most of the Germans were very happy in pre war Germany under Hitler. That's all they could talk about in the ruins of the postwar years. The recovery of nazi Germany was the envy of still starving and depression ridden Europe.

Most alcohoholics and drug addicts are also very happy in their substance induced euphoria, as are smokers, lighting up another fag.

The problem is that empires and other robber economies always self destruct.
This is the inevitable end of all drug/religion/ideology induced happiness and forms of artificial well being.

History always repeats itself because societies are always ruled and misled by the same predator classes of fools and crooks, and people let them get away with their lies, because it makes them feel good until the whole thing collapses around their gullible heads.

Ed Deak.

neocon.....The owners of the Titanic also cut back on the number of lifeboats in their false sense of security.

The fact that you read my words as "gloom and doom" shows your ignorance.

I happen to be a very happy man, full of jokes and fun. Until it comes to economics and politics, where I pull all the stops as I have lived under all ideological systems and have known all the crooks that run them.

My kids used to make jokes like: "Dad has backup systems on his backup systems" and they were right.

I know history and how it works and how it can be used to predict the future without crystal balls and economists.

Try logic for a change..........

Now I have to go and do some real work.

Cheers, Ed.

As usual, most of the dollar numbers in this whole deficit/surplus story omit to account for the growing ecological deficit caused by most British Columbians living well beyond sustainable means. It's easy to make money when you rapidly liquidate resources that took millions of years (fossil fuels) or only thousands of years (old growth forests) to make. It's also easy to make money when you take a public asset that belongs to the people, and sell it to some foreign corporation. When you subtract real dollar values for the collapse of fish stocks, the collapse of forest ecosystems, the lands and people poisoned by sour-gas wells and mine tailings, OSB plants, urban air pollution and sick hospital syndrome, the numbers don't look so good anymore. And let's not forget the homeless generation that can't afford a starter home, because others have willingly helped inflate the real-estate market bubble to ridiculous proportions. This is stealing from the future, and real estate inflation alone over the last few yeras has made a dollar worth 40 cents.

I could go on mentioning a few more ecological deficits that nobody yet knows how to attribute a real $$ figure to, but I'll keep this short. I'm just trying to emphasise that the propensity for number-shuffling in isolation, without looking at the bigger picture, is mere rearrangement of the deckchairs on the Titanic.

Just ask the government hacks in their new air-conditioned offices if they are starting to save the many many billions we will soon need to spend on dykes and seawalls, and the relocation of everyone in the Fraser Delta when sea levels start to climb, thanks to the incendiary economic ways of Burning Man, enjoying this once-in-a-planet's-lifetime Bender.

Well, there is certainly no defecit of off the shalf rhetoric around here!

Ed, Joyless Macphailure took it off in one bite, I can show you the teeth marks sometime.....
You've brought your usual confusion and obfuscation to the discussion. I don't recall quoting any growth rate figures in this thread, where are they?
Sceondly, GDP and productivity figures are widely accepted as benchmarks or comparisons, nothing fraudulent about them.

Your abacus isn't nearly big enough to begin to calculate the factors that you suggest. What type of group do you propose to be responsible for the qualifiers you suggest?

Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black? You admit that you've rarely been successful in dealing with real world economics but boast about your intellectual economic prowess. Now that's fraudulent behaviour if ever I've seen it......

Nobody is forcing anyone to look at the story behind the numbers is there? I assume you all found your way here on your own, nobody has a gun to your head forcing you to read this story and the comments?

With those assumptions in hand I will state again that my daughter will happily collect her allowance, read her new Harry Potter or play with her PS2 and think the world is a great place and I'm a financial genius.

Fine, I have no problem with those willing to follow the path of a primary school graduate. People have enough on their plate these days and don't need any more work to do. But when there is an article on the story behind the numbers I don't see the point of trying to shout it down like a militant party hack. If you don't want to read it or hear about it, fine. That's real easy to do. Just point your browser to Pollyanna.com and go on with your life. I promise not to hunt you down through your IP address and send you emails about it, really, I promise. There's no money or joy in it for me.

Now assuming we're all here of our own free will and we have an interest in the subject I don't see the reason for this to get heated. An election is a long way off and although I realize Gordon may be someone's relative there really is no reason for anyone to take this discussion personally.

Noleftnut...... You're correct that no abacus would be able to calculate the variables.

There are no bottom lines in economics, which means no GDP, growth etc, because all real costs start and end in eternnity, therefore we don't know nuthin' of what the costs and profits really are.

Economics claim to be the "management and distribution of scarce resources", but in reality all economic theories, with a few exceptions like Veblen, Odum, Keynes, Daly, etc. who have realized the basic errors, the rest of the theories have been set up how to steal from others and the ecology, then cover up and distribute the real costs on a wider base.

As far the GDP is concerned many people have known for many years that it is a fraud and came up with alternate measurements, e.g. GPI genuine Progress Indicator, for one.

If we don't try to account for the debits, we're committing economic suicide.

Therefore, because we don't know the real costs, the only solution is to "supply the needs of the largest number of sectors with the least of energy and resource inputs". In other words, the use of physical or engineering efficiency in economics, which also means that the presently used theory of monetary efficiency is a fraud and crime that will ultimately kill capitalism. As the same corrupt ideology that killed its idiot twin, communism.

Ecologically friendly and efficient economic systems can be developed, as we have been doing it for many years and are very well off as the result.

Money means nothing to me, as I was living on my 5th monetary system by the age of 21, my wife on her 6th by 20, then on the 6th at 28 and 7th at 27.

If this confuses you my friend, it is no wonder you support a dead end ideology, like many I have known, supporting various other dead ideologies.

Ed Deak.

Ed, good post, only a little confusing.....monetary systems may come and go but the underlying elements of everday economic systems have been around for thousands of years.

Wiley Great comment The 2010 WO has already started to shutting down hotels
neocon- (profits) is the primary fuel for ingenuity, is that a new word for Greed?
nln

Can anyone actually make any sense of the above comment? I thought smoking weed was verboten in Korea?

Working Man:

But not most AREAS[I] of the province. Considering the most people live in the lower mainland, the economy of the lower mainland is booming. But it is booming because the resourcers of the interior are funneled into the lower mainland. What would happen is the "profits" from O&G in BC stayed in the region they are being extracted from, and people had to move there to enjoy the fruits of this economy? But the wealth dug out of the ground is quickly whisked off to Vancouver for yet another highrise, or highway, or high living. And what does the lowermainland send back to the interior by way of "trade"..........?

John Kenneth Galbraith: "The purpose of economic competition is to eliminate competition"...."

I post a comment telling all those who read these messages that despite the so called prosperity of the province, the disabled are commiting suicide at an alarming rate. Not one person takes the time to ask about the situation or how they can help. It is apparient that despite all your talk about left and right the reality is you are here to bicker and argue instead of actually becoming part of the solution. You are not intellectuals or even compassionate. you are all part of the problem when you are alerted to a horrendous situation and you prefer to act like children. If you don't care about the most vulnerable in our society what good are all your words and opinions. Perhaps it is all of you who should be ashamed of yourselves.

John Kenneth Galbraith wasn't that smart. He should have said ' The goal of economic competition is to eliminate competition. ' But by saying purpose, he is implict in his criticism, making him stupid.
The goal of anyone, doing anything, is to eliminate competition.
I don't care what kind of situation one is in, this is true.

and regardless of which word you wish to use, it all goes to show that capitalism, as per Ed Deak's assertions, is self-immolating. It is not sustainable; it cannot last, and must succomb to the basest of tyrannies.

The flaw in your comment and Ed's arguements is that you infer a near term depletion of the natural resources that help drive capitalism. Ed himself admits that the factors that might determine a time line are virtually impossible to quantify. Could be 1,000 years, could be a 1,000,000.

All in all, it makes your comments (and his) seem like Chicken Little.......

Lastly, if capitalism, or something like it, is doomed. What's the alternative?

NoLeftNutter, Socialism, as Capitalisim is frot with Greed by Corporations.

The question to ask is: are you better off now" than you were before Gordo and gang showed up. Just about 50 percent said no last time. A lot of programs got cut, schools closed, even the jails got cut, hospitals closed and on and on. I for one have been waiting well over a year for a procedure that takes under 15 minutes. This has resulted in me not being a productive citizne as I wait. The guy scheduled for that proceude has over 2,000 people on his wait list. It should make sense to hire anothee guy to cut the pile down. But won't happen unless Gord needs the same thing as us lesser mortals. Yes, some things are grudgingly being returned. And what has been the result?

Will started off by asking the question.

All the pain and suffering and we are about the same place we were before the scorched earth policies.

Point well taken. However, I do not know of any place I have ever been where levels of prosperity are better in rural areas than in urban areas. The concentration of commerce in large cities practically guarantees higher standards of living than in rural areas, if you count income as a main standard of living.

That said, rural dwellers do not have to put up with the congestion and high costs of living in the Lower Mainland.

More than you might thing. Look at a place like Kelowna; it is teeming with tourism, much of it from the Lower Mainland, myself included. I spent $1000 on a weekend trip there a month ago and that is for one family on what was hardly a 5 star trip.

In the end, development in the hinterlands will never be as it is in cities. That is why cities grow. If you want Vancouver salries and employment oppurtunities, you are not going to find them in Vernon. That is realiy and no matter how much dogma files here it is not going to change.

DPL - your post is just more idealogical rhetoric. Spending is up dramatacially in most of the areas you complain about. Sorry that it doesn't match your idealogical perspective. Who says that society exists to serve your interests?

With the US defficit well into the trillions, I wonder how much of this boom will be saved for the rainy day that is sure to come when the economy to which we are tied goes bust. The massive US deficit must, at some point, convert to much higher interest rates which will then slow the economy. The economy of the USA produces fewer useful products as the jobs have been going to South America and Southern Asia. Of course, those Asian jobs pay the workers very little; and health, safety and pollution standards are generally very poor in those places. On a lighter note, we can be joyous that the USA is manufacturing more war goods and shipping F-16's to Pakistan. That is certainly an economy and an ecology booster for the world. Yes, I am ever so happy that Gordon is selling off ownership of our resources to outside nations - particularly the USA, makes me feel safe and cozy. Hell, isn't it great that our Interior highways are being destroyed by trucks hauling timber, minerals and mining equipment. No sense in fixing those roads anyhow, there won't be many jobs in the resource sectors in ten years anyhow. Then all of the bumpkins like Ed and me will be able to walk barefoot down our dirt paths as we try to collect our pensions so that we can use the money to visit travel to filthy hospitals that have been moved hours away from the homes we built in the Interior so we could rape the earth for the city-dwellers. Most of you guys in the Lower Mainland who think you are doing so much work wouldn't last a day out in the bush (doing the real work that drives the economy).

DPL - your post is just more idealogical rhetoric. Spending is up dramatacially in most of the areas you complain about. Sorry that it doesn't match your idealogical perspective. Who says that society exists to serve your interests?

Society is supposedly set up to manage the interests of the citizen. The question I asked was" Are we better off now etc." since we all pay into the medical system in this province it should stand to reason that we should get timely medical care. It's nothing to do with idealogical perspectives its all about service for money provided. We have a suprlus, and we got it by cutting back on one hell of a lot of stuff. I believe your thoughts might be different if you were one of the thousands of people waiting for some surgury or others caused by closing down hospitals and especially operating room times. Money is being spent, but it it that wise to have 2,000 people on ojne guys list for a 15 minute procedure. Those people are limited in their daily activities. Give me the phone number of some MD who can do the job this week and I'll be there, we don't have an option.

It's failry obvious, if one doesn't agree with whatever it is you are pumping out, it is a idelogical interest or rhetoric. Did you notice those words written down somewhere and decided to use them today

Working Man:

You are right. But the prosperity disparities are due in great part to the wealth transfers from the hinterland to the urban areas. Like I said, what if the revenues from the )&G in the Peace River country stayed in the Peace River country, and the urban areas had to actually BUY this resource?

Kelowna is just an extension of the lower mainland........

NLN:

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20060720164506731

Check your facts. It is in fact forecast to be about US$300bn, which in itself is absurdly high.

Sharing, I suggest you take a trip to a third world country. I would do you good. I am thankful for every day I spend here. I have seen the other side of the coin.

http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/01/26/budget.deficits.ap/

PS Most coins have a top and bottom, as that is how they most often sit on the table top. Right now, we can be said to be "on top". But I think the great majority of people on "the bottom" will be either climbig over the edge of the coin to get to the top....or they will just flip the coin over..........

Workingman,

you were sort-of right. I wrote deficit when I meant to say debt. However, the US deficit is increasing at a rate of $1.65 billion per day. The total debt is about $8.4 trillion dollars. The average debt-load per US family is somewhere between $110,000 and $133,000 (depending upon how you measure a family). When inflation and higher interest rates hit, the debt will move upward even faster. Each citizen's share is about $28,000 The deficit spending in the US is currently about $600 billion per annum. Those fgures are all in US dollars. Multiply them by about 1.14 to get Canadian fiures.

Here are some sites that may add clarity to what I said. Wikipedia seems to be fairly error-free for many things. Though not deep in economic information, I believe it comprehensible for most working men. It says that some analysts believe that the US debt should top $10 trillion within the next 2 years. That means it is going to increase at more than 1 trillion a year. Whether the debt increases that much or not, the USA is now accountable for 22% of the world's national debts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._public_debt
http://www.toptips.com/debtclock.html
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

On your last not about my needing my eyes opened by visiting some impoverished places in the world: I have been to Haiti. People were poor there, but now I live in a valley containing five different native reserves. I see little difference in the standard of living between the two groups. The average annual wage per family for four of these reserves was under $20,000 per year, 3 years ago. I don't know what it is now, but I work with the families living in these conditions and it is not easy for them. Children have huge health and nutrition issues. Our community is dead last of the 77 health regions measured in BC.

I have not been to Africa, where things are much worse. I don't want it to get so here.

I just noted that Rick W. also posted a deficit clock. Note that Rick's second link, the CNN article on the US deficit, was published more than 2 years ago (pre-Katrina etc.), so I believe the numbers are actually higher, now.

Gordo has a whole gagale of CGA's paid by BC Taxpayers to "cook the books" to his likeing
wm?

NoLeftNutter quieries:

A profound question. I wonder if you have ever heard of Bhuddist economic theory? One need not be Buddhist to gain some enlightenment through understanding Buddhism, though (pardoxically) one does become more Buddhist the more one understands. LOL Anyhow, research has shown that regardless of their lack of material wealth (by western standards), the people who live in the Buddhist nation of

The following link takes one to Buddhist Economics:
A Middle Way For The Market Place
By Ven. P. A. Payutto

http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhist_economics.htm

[Continued from above - it seems I must have clicked the wrong button...]

...the people who live in the Buddhist nation of [Bhutan are among the happiest and least polluting people on the planet. The Bhutanese make less than $2000 Cdn per year, yet they live harmoniously with one another and with the environment. Bhutan is land-locked and high in the Himalaya Mountains. They export agricultual products and hydro-electricity. They have a percapita national debt of about $200,000,000 or about $335(US) per person].

Campbell is a bought/coward not a financial Genius except to screw the working poor of more hard earned $$.
RAV is being built by 6 bucks an hour imported slave labour.
Canwest where r u?
He's working on privatizing OUR parks to foreigners & much more!

Well here's a good look @ our great Justice system @ work or not!

http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com

RickW, you are confusing accumulated debt and defecit. You should do some research and find what they mean.

Check your spelling, BC Dude. You are teaching English?

Since when? I posted TWO links, one to deal with the debt and the other to deal with the deficit.
'Tis you who are confoozed, I daresay. But then, you think capitalism is a viable modus operandi......

working man if that is the most intelligent answer to my blog, then we the working poor have nothing to worry about from the like of you!
Oh, and why do all the well-to-do invest/save their $$ in tax havens? Instead they could be trying to make BC, & Canada a great country.
Paul Martin's Canadian Steamship Lines, where is his fleet to help evacuate the citizens of an illegal aggression against a sovereign country?
Thanks to Harper & his lil gutless sheep have lined up with the two worst Evils in this world wanna be empire.

thank god mr. campbell is in charge of this beautiful province. thank god bc dufuss is not.

Elliot, God has nothing to do with greed. oh and Gordo also said no to gambling or slots etc.
When a society relies on the profits of gambling it will soon become extinct

gordo's gambling more than casino chips, he's gambling with the financial future of this province.

Not only is gordo relying on federal government transfer payments, but also on quick royalty bucks from BC's non-renewable resources

The pumping down of one Canada's great gas fields, Ladyfern, is such short time, brought needed revenues into BC's coffers just in time for another election, but also removed future revenues from future generations.

Can BC survive on service oriented businesses to provide government revenues?

Gordo's experiments, investing billions of public monies in the luxury tourism sector infrastructure. moving from renewable resource based to a unbalanced service dominated economy and ghost towning most of BC's former towns can only bring havoc onto future generations.

As Philip Porter, economist, likes to say, economic impacts are not benefits, and most impacts occur during government driven capital intensive periods by price increases and not real value or wealth.

Campbell likes to talk about sustainable prosperity. What he means is we have gone from wealth creation for the many to wealth preservation for a few.

Another economic factor for McMartin to ponder is 'leakage' (where BC public funds are spent outsourcing goods and services from outside of the province).

It is assumed that 60% of all public monies being spent on Olympic related infrastructure (goods and services) is outsourced from the province. One only has to see the number of companies involved from outside not only the province but from outside Canada involved with these large projects.

But who cares. Let's party likes it 1999!

And then silence as we become slaves of big biz & war mongers!
I'm on my way to Robson Square anti war demonstration, as I am 1 Canadian who is totaly disgusted with Harper sideing with Isreal & Bush War criminals!

oops Israel

and of course you, as a bona-fide idiot, will side with hezbollah and the rest of the scumbag shit-eating terrorists. blather on bc dufuss, you're helping us understand what you lefties are all about.

"Thank god Mr. Campbell is in charge of this beautiful province" (???) Cool it with the "Elliot" handle, Gord- yer not foolin' anybody.

You can always tell when the Fraser Insitute's and/or/or incl. American corporate moles have been touched by a Tyee article, for suddenly there'are a whole flock of righting drivellers that appear on the scene to pick it apart and anybody who agrees with the article. Only such guys have the time and the money to waste on monitoring all free press/media outlets and the time to comment in droves against some good article exposing the propoganda of the corproate agenda.

I have seen first hand how inefficient and destructive private enterprises are as compared to publicly owned enterprises. CN--a crash a week, a water ruined every time. BRIC. Air Canada. PetroCanada. It is to puke.
One thing I found out, to my surprise, is that private enterprise is not really very enterprising, and quashes ingenuity with G-force winds. The modern CEO is a tyrant that stifles the voice of dissent in the boardroom, and only those "yes" men and women are allowed. Most CEOs will start laying the policies out that will destroy their own company, eventually, much like Tom Stephens ruined MacBlo.

Someone mentioned BC's sales of non renuable resourses and I do agree wih that writer. Raw log exports are huge, the softwood lumber deal is looking like we had stupid people doing the job for us. And now it seems natural gas prices are heading nowhere but down. But alll is not lost. Neufelt, the old socred is shilling for coal sales. When the last saleable thing gets sold off at bargain prices please turn off the lights. BC Has become the hewers of wood and the carries of water folks used to cll the sort of dumb ones doing the shitty work for someone else

Hey just noticed a article in the Globe and Mail. Seems Premier Cambell is focusing in on health care in BC. You know the guy who shut down hospital's operating rooms, cut staff wages and brought in private companies to help him secrew things up, and watched the wait lists get longer. Now he figures a public input of around 18 months to study the issues is needed. The article is a good read. Even has a ADM covering the bases for him. Same guy who lost the Deputy Minister about a month ago. she walked with no severance package. her complaint was the Premier and his deputy wern't listening.

please turn off the lights? They will turn themselves off, as there will be nothing left to make the power for them.....

Cool post, Marysue!