Personally, I am very impressed as to how Jinny Sims has handled herself with the media.

I did not know of her before, but I respect and support her now.

Sincerely,

Average Joe

Don't like something? Defy it!
Doesn't that breed a form of anarchy?
Tyrranical Liberals vs the under-dog BCTF.
This ought to set an interesting precident...

Mr Schreck... Jinny Sims is breaking a law in the only jurisdiction in the entire world where a teacher can't negotiate his or her working conditions. The ILO has ruled that education is VITAL not ESSENTIAL. Where would this province be if people didn't break the law to prove that some laws are made by idiots.

Who in this day and age could believe that women couldn't vote at one time, that black people couldn't go to schools with white people at the same time. We look back at these eras as "dark times" in our history. Yet people fought long and hard to "awaken" the masses through peaceful demonstrations, and I for one commend the teachers for this peaceful demonstration against laws made by idiots.

I don't think the Liberals are idiots. I fully support the BCTF, but the Liberals know exactly what they are doing - privatizing education (just as they want to further privatize other sectors of society) by creating a crisis in the public schools.

In Japan, public schools are regarded by both the ruling party (LDP) and the opposition party (DPJ) as dysfunctional. The union there was broken in the 1980s. The idea is that dysfunctional public schools will force parents to send their kids to private schools, and since the 1990s the number of private schools has boomed.

In BC, in the last couple of years, the Japanese cram school corporation Kumon has arrived on the scene. They know what is going on: There is a government in power that will see that little Johnny deliberately does not learn his ABCs due to deliberately overcrowded classrooms. And so Johnny parents will have to pay Kumon for tutoring.

To see the Kumon corporation in BC now speaks to the wide extent of corporate backers that the Liberals have, and the business investment plans they have to live up to for their investors in the privatization of public education in BC. Next, in 10 years in BC we might see private "education management organizations" to outsource teachers to schools, similar to those in Japan and the US. Selnate/Interac of Provo, Utah and Tokyo is one of these. http://www.interac.co.jp/. Greenstaff is another. Edison Schools another.

Laws are made by politicians, courts enforce them, ergo, change the politicians, get better (good) laws. This only shows how much we are in what is historically known as the "class struggle", that workers engage in when they work for wages (salaries). Regardless of whether they use their hands or their brains, they nevertheless are at odds with their employers. The profit margin is not clear here in the case of education, except that corporations require a relatively intelligent work force to use to enhance their bottom line; if they can educate the masses for their ends, then they will do it as cheaply as possible. I just hope that the BC Federation of Labour will give the teachers, the much needed support and backing, they deserve and do not stab them in the back, as they shamefully did with the HEU strike. Which, incidently, "joe" (see above) the leader (Allnutt) of the HEU did not buckle, as you say, but he realized that the official labour movement (BCFed) was not supportive of their strike, in spite of the huge outpouring of community and social sympathy for the nurses.

Thank you for that warning, Asher, well said.

There is a small discrepancy. The HEU contract did not cover the nursing profession. The general membership felt that we did,in fact, have the support of the labour movement during this period. We should have been able to capitalize on this. We are still suffering, perhaps April will bring a change.

Apparently there is a slight threat of not only the BCTF Exec. being arrested but the executive members of locals too. I am fully prepared to go to jail if need be. The BCTF has pledged that no member will face any kind of disciplinary action without the full support of the union (financial, legal, etc.). The issues are important enough for me to take a stand and I'm perfectly willing to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak. Considering that many executive members are female, I wonder what the public would think about them being arrested?

BC Fed has pledged full support both in the media and directly to the BCTF. I can post some of the letters the BCTF has received in support of our strike, if you like. I was at a meeting that Jim Sinclair attended in my town. He pledged that what didn't happen with HEU would happen with the teachers. We have received letters of support not only from the BC Fed and individual unions in BC (nurses, HEU, etc.) but from the Canadian Federation of teachers and various other educational organizations around the world. They can see the big picture, after all. If you want any of these letters posted, I'm sure I could find them in my email again.

I wonder why the BCTF leadership didn't plan ahead a bit better. Calling a strike is just opening the door to the government to break the union. Gordo would love nothing more. The BCTF are the most troublesome of all the unions in BC to him and his cohorts. Their actions in the last election has made them the #1 prime target.

So, being a target, knowing the government would love dearly to jail the leadership and fine the hell out of the union, you don't fall into the obvious trap of officially calling a strike. You go guerrilla.

Get good contact lists set up, send out complete membership lists with contact information to everyone. Quietly, long before things come to any crunch, long before there's a strike, you train people in ways to lead anonymously. Show people, lots of people, how to set up ghost websites, phoney emails, every tool you can think of to make it hard to figure out who is doing what. Don't tell them to do anything, just show them how.

Then, when the legistlation is passed, the BCTF leadership should have resigned in protest, declaring the impossibility of leading a union that has no bargaining rights, and step out of the picture. From that point on the leadership has to be clean, really clean. But nobody can make the union leadership tell people to go to work, especially if they have resigned their post.

Let the network do the dirty. Maybe there will be hiccups, some confusion among the members, but as long as nobody gets caught counselling people to break the law, it's pretty hard to heap a penalty on anyone.

Judges don't like to beat on anybody, especially not the little guy. They can see a dirty job for what it is, and they don't like it. Jailing the president of the union who puts her neck on the line knowing the consequences is one thing. Jailing thousands of individual teachers who decide to withhold their services individually, is a whole other thing.

Ah well, I foresee a bad end to all this, for the teachers that is.

The Charter should have had better protection of workers' rights, imho.

The BCTF doesn't give a rat's ass about fines, as they can easily raise the dues of their members/sheep. And Jinny Sims would love to go to jail, as it would ensure her a seat on the opposition side of the leg next election. This is a mess that big labour has been planning with glee for some time now. Next up will be CUPE and the teachers will have to honour their pickets, thereby shutting the schools down and the students out once more. No wonder no one except you lefties believe that this dispute is all about the kids.

If Jinny goes, watch the province shut down.

Ferry workers, nurses, CUPE, HEU and more. In fact, everyone who is in line for dealing with the legislative hammer.

The only solution is to force what should have been done in the first place, a negotiated settlement including working conditions and salary increase.

We can't let it shut down all at once. Too many replacement workers to hire.

uh, you'd be hard pressed to find a union that doesn't honour another unions picket line.

What I would like to see is the Taxpayer's Association, or whatever that fascist organization 'managed' by Ontario native Sarah MacKintire, sued. They are actually promoting a class action suit against the HEU. Can you believe what slugs they are? How morally bankrupt? Their name is so insulting to real Canadian taxpayers, as well.

I totally support the teachers and all working people in BC. For who are they but our fellow citizens?

Actually, the gov't has backed themselves into a corner. There's no Air Force to come in and teach all the kids, so really the teachers hold all the cards. I don't think the public will turn against the teachers. I think their anger will rise against the gov't. Because, as stupid as they are, they were too stupid to give the public the appearance that they were playing by the rules. Instead, they give themselves a 10% raise and talk about the summer off, they're hardly ever working! People aren't dumb. They look at what is happening with the Bush administration and they know the Campbell crew are one and the same.

This just gives the public more info about what is really happening in the school system and things like I heard on the radio today that I had no idea about, such as the Supreme Court ruling that ruled in the teachers favour which resulted in this group of little school boys rewriting the law! Today, a lot of people heard just how far our school system has fallen under their watch! The dummies.They're not going to break this union. There will be a massive general strike first. How dumb are people who are attracted to neo-conservatism. They really and truly don't have enough sense to pound sand.

When the gov't rewrites laws to suit themselves, the rule of law becomes meaningless. And, they reap the consequences along with the rest of society. They don't get to pick and choose which laws are sacrosanct.

crooksandliars.com has the video of what happened in congress today. We've just become a bunch of banana republics and the results will show soon enough, unless of course, the judiciary succeeds in bringing that administration to justice and thus aiding our own RCMP's persuit of justice here in Victoria and Ottawa.

How could they betray their country and their province like this?

Where do school trustees stand in this mess?

Perhaps the Tyee can get a copy of the Friday press release from SD#5 South East Kootenay School Board.

Then, please let's look at the response to this press release from local Liberal MLA (The right Honourable Mr. Bill Bennet.)

I really think all British Columbians should have a chance to read what was said in Cranbrook today.

As far as I know, trustees have been pretty quiet even when Shirley Bond and Gordo are busy blaming them for the state of our education system today. I suppose they are afraid of getting fired or something??

To redrivergirl and others: You may be interested in reading this from the BCTF. It's posted on the website I think.

#1 October 7, 2005
Respect for the law

We have the utmost respect for the law and the judicial system so it is difficult to listen to this government tell teachers they should respect the law.

This is the same government that used the Legislature to rip up legally binding collective agreements.

This is the government that said it didn’t feel the need to follow a ruling by the International Labour Organization, a United Nations body composed of representatives of government, business, and labour. The ILO ruled that the BC Liberal law declaring education an “essential service” should be repealed. The ruling also called on the government to open talks with the BCTF to negotiate an agreement and to refrain from imposing settlements in the future.

This is a government that will not even allow teachers to exercise their limited rights provided by the BC Liberals own “essential service” legislation. The government didn’t even wait for the Labour Relations Board to rule on what constituted “essential services” for education. After only three days of teachers undertaking minimal actions such as refusing to exchange papers with AOs, the government introduced Bill 12 to bring teachers to heel.

This is the government that after losing a decision in court simply turned around and legislated what the courts had just ruled was fundamentally flawed. The B.C. Teachers’ Federation challenged the decisions of government-appointed arbitrator Eric Rice in the B.C. Supreme Court and won. January 22, 2004, Justice D.W. Shaw concluded that Rice’s ruling contained “fundamental” errors on “points of law that are of importance to the education system of British Columbia, including the teachers, the school boards and the students.” However, the BC Liberals introduced Bill 19, and made that fundamentally flawed ruling a new law.

This is the government that overturned arbitrated settlements for doctors and provincial court prosecutors because it didn’t like the results.

This is not a government to be lecturing people about respect for the law.

We dropped the ball last time. Let's not prove our stupiddity by showing respect for laws, we never get to ratify by referendum. Come on Jim Sinclair, call a general strike, if the teachers take a hit! We've nothing to lose, but the transparentcy of our chains.

Yes, education can be considered VITAL, rather than ESSENTIAL to our society's needs.
Other vitals, such as clean air, potable water, healthy food and adequate housing are being degraded by the ENTREPRENEURIAL class for their profit taking needs.
The LIEBERALS of BC with their PRIVATIZATION ethic, are degrading public education to the point that only the private schools will provide an adequate education for the needs of society in the future.
Wake up you all. You MUST send your youngsters to school by law. EVERYONE pays taxes for education. Do you want to see your tax dollars in FOREIGN pockets to provide PRIVATIZED education? Where are you going to send your kids if these idiots break the teachers union and public education goes down the tubes?

In Victoria, there was a schoolboard trustee picketing, with a sign, with the teachers, parents and students. He spoke on camera, saying that the funding was inadequate, etc.

Everyone loves quotes--here is one from
Albert Einstein;
The crippling of individuals I consider the worst evil of capitalism. Our whole educational system suffers from this evil.
An exaggerated competitive attitude is inculcated into the student, who is trained to worship acquisitive success as a preparation for their future career.

This quote would also be relevant to the other news story here today on the crooked CEOs.

As Asher pointed out above, this dispute isn't really about labor negotiations, it is really this government showing its contempt for the whole idea of public education. Of course this government has often before shown its lack of respect for the law or contracts, so it is a bit much to hear them talk about illegal actions by others. By the way, when will we find out why the Legislature was raided, oh so long ago?

"corporations require a relatively intelligent work force"

And, 'relatively' is the key word here. Critical thinkers have the capability to say "and then what." The uneducated lack the skills to keep the machine running. I'm not sure which way the pendulum is swinging. Reading some of these posts gives me hope. Reading the 'relatively' intelligent tripe that comes from others makes it clear who's been fooled again.

The biggest problem is countering the tasty lies with plain truths. Too many will buy the lie and the future be damned. You know who you are.

We still have RECALL. It seems to me that I heard Gordo giving "the highest priority to education" in his B.S. speeches. Now I don't have any copies of those speeches, so I don't know if he actually spelled anything out. If anyone can point me in the right direction I'll look at them. If there is a case for recall then I think the entire Fiberal party could be recalled. Of course his highest priority could have been to give it away to private enterprise.
On another topic: I haven't seen any picket signs that say ON STRIKE. So my thoughts are that this is long overdue civil disobedience and in either case I fully support the teachers. And Jim Sinclair if you are reading this (as a retired union member)I hope you come out publicly on the matter.
Finally, it is getting colder and I was thinking of going to Tim Hortens and getting a few cups of coffee for those on the picket line in my area. How about you?

Teachers know the consequences, but we will stand firm. It was great seeing people from other unions out walking with the teachers. At one school, I saw longshoremen walking with their own signs in support of teachers. All it would take is one teacher with a picket sign to shut down the port of Vancouver. I hope the government comes to the table in a meaningful way, so this insanity doesn't have to occur.

have the teachers ever thought of joining the liberals and working from within to achieve their goals? the liberals like to give money to their friends, why not become gordo's friend. there's no sincerity in the liberal party so the teachers don't really have to be sincere about being liberals.

Yes it is funny how some laws are broken and it takes the government years to deal with the culprits.

Bill 12 is like a loaded aircraft heading for the twin towers of public education and the teaching profession in British Columbia.

When will the rest of the liberals realize that they are the passengers and Gordo is the nut-cake pilot on this insane flight to attempt the ultimate in teacher bashing.

If Jinny Sims is jailed this government will face teachers that will be way beyond angry. I doubt that schools will work at any level of effectiveness after that as the daily whipping of the teachers will then become a necessity.

Time to call a cooling off period and come to the table prepared to start real negotiations. That is the last hope.

However,I think that B.C. public education has now been destroyed by the liberals no matter how this turns out.

Slanted as they are, even 'Gloebels' news could not hide how damaging the cuts to education funding by Gordo's gang have been. Or how much support for teachers exists all over BC among the students and parents.
I fully support shutting this whole province down in a general strike for as long as it takes to reach a fair and negotiated settlement with the BCTF. Imposed agreements/contracts, legislating workers back to work, binding arbitration..this LIEBERAL bunch of crooks should be recalled en masse. This premier will be making statements about "illegal actions" by the teachers. The same premier who drove drunk, shed a few crocodilian tears on camera, and basically walked away scot free. Hypocrite. Liar. Who really believes he and his corporate puppet masters want what's best for our children?

Good point, "Umslopogaas" -- the BC Liberals could just choose to forgive any penalties imposed on the teachers like they did with the fish farmers...

I find it ironic that the government is continually repeating the nonsense about the BCTF breaking the law when in fact to find real law-breakers, all you have to do is think back to Campbell's arrest in Hawaii for drunk driving. A further irony is the government's repeated statement that by "breaking the law" the teachers are setting a bad example for the students in this province. Take a look at a web site devoted to the law-breaking that Campbell committed:

http://members.shaw.ca/caity/premier.html

Gordon Campbell, you have set the worst example of all! And broken the law at the same time! Let's not hear any more from you or your government about "breaking the law" or "setting an example"!

Jim Sinclair has come out publicly and said that the BC Fed supports the teachers and BCTF 100%. As an example, here is a letter from the Vancouver Labour Council. The time is coming for ALL of us to take a stand!!!

VDLCÂ*SUPPORTS BC TEACHERS IN THEIR FIGHT FOR FREE AND FAIR COLLECTIVE BARGAINING

Â*
The 65,000 members represented by the Vancouver & District Labour Council are in full support of BC teachers in their fight for the right to free and fair collective bargaining.Â*
Â*
Teachers are the main component of our education delivery system and should be respected for their contributions to our communities. They are also employees of the provincial government with legitimate concerns over wages and working conditions.
Â*
Teachers require a forum to negotiate and resolve these issues. That is what free collective bargaining accomplishes and the provincial government would be well advised to recognize this fundamental reality of working life.
Â*
This provincial government has consistently failed in their basic responsibility as an employer to treat their workers fairly. With the introduction of Bill 12, the BC Liberals are continuing to dismantle free collective bargaining in the public sector, leaving few legitimate alternatives. This government has already discredited compulsory arbitration as an alternative when they set aside an arbitrator's decision favouring BC doctors. This has left workers with few options.
Â*
88% of BC teachers voted to strike in support of their demands for basic improvements in wages and working conditions. This was a clear message to the BC government that teachers have important issues that need to be addressed at the bargaining table.
Â*
By introducing Bill 12, the BC Liberal government has chosen the path of conflict and confrontation. By insisting on submission to such an arbitrary and unjust law, the BC Liberals only discredit the "rule of law".
Â*
BC teachers have been pushed to the wall. They are saying "enough"!
Â*
We agree with BC teachers. We support their basic demands for fair wages and the right to negotiate working conditions. The Vancouver & District Labour Council pledges to stand shoulder to shoulder with BC teachers in this dispute for as long as it takes to reach a fair and just settlement.
Â*
Bill Saunders
President
Â*

If Gordo and his cronies think that they could get away with arresting Jinny Sims or those of us who are members of our local Executives, let him try!! I would gladly be arrested for this cause because it's worth it. Jinny Sims has been prepared for this for a long time. But I DARE the Fiberals to try to arrest any of us. Can you imagine the public support (which is already been FANTASTIC despite what's been said by Gordo and the gang) if a bunch of teachers were arrested?? We are teaching the children of this province that you don't have to lay down and take it when a bully is tormenting you. We are teaching our children that, if we stand together, we can do anything!!

To those of you expressing support for teachers: thank you very much!! Thank you for caring about the children of BC and for standing up in defense of public education. Thank you for supporting unions in BC and basic human rights. And keep on honking at us on the picket lines, please!!! Food is always popular with teachers too We've had so many snacks delivered to our picket line that we had to pack it away for Tuesday!!!

Ain't much point playing at the game of being a working class hero, if you ain't prepared to go to jail, when serious pushing comes to serious shoving. Working class activists expected it, and whole lots worse, in the days when the early industrial working class began organizing themselves in the conditions of early illegality. (Same as women couldn't even vote, there was a time when only those with "property" could.)

The law is a relative thing that generally serves some powerful and wealthy class's interest. But one has to remember that "democracy" itself arose out of conditions of early "illegality", only because folks were prepared to "break the law" in very many cases.

So the law has been modified some over time, by people's struggles and preparedness to sacfirice, but it still fundamentally serves the interests of that same, typically "male chosen" (some women) ruling class spoken of earler, upthread, like as not of a hundred years ago.

Generally the issue regarding the law is, in my view: What's the issue and what's the situation? What are the risks versus what I and my mates stand to get out of defying the law?

It's a purely an issue of appropriate strategy and tactics.

Can I/we reasonably expect to win in the end? Are we united enough? Is "the will to prevail" there, and strong enough?

Other than that, The Law is nothing more to me than a relatively useful set of Rules, largely determined by somebody else's "ancient" interests, that are subject to the constant evolution of peoples and movements, and the pressure they are able to bring to bear-, which may involve the need to break the law from time to time. (Which is neither fortunate nor unfortunate, but just the way it is, at least within the capitalist socio-economic form with which I am familiar.)

That the law is something clean and crystal pure, above it all, like the voice of God arising out of the chaos of the universe, to which all must or should genuflect, at all times and in all situations, is only pure poppycock.

You have to first accept that this government and all neo-con governments are not about governance. They just try to distract you with these issues, forever moving the pea under the shell. They have no interest in it or in the issues that require governance like health and education... issues that involve the care and concerns of citizens. Their concerns are about power...and the power to make money for the privileged few.

When you get 0..0...0 and NOTHING is on the bargaining table...when contracts are ripped up, when court rulings are ignored....you gotta recognize this is the last hurrah for labour...and that should tell you immediately who you are dealing with, the contempt they hold for working people and for the public system itself...and to what lengths they are willing to go to break whatever vessels still hold the power of people within them.

They do not want to bargain, that is not their intention, they want us to concede.

Yesterday, mere blocks away from teachers on the picket line, food service workers (privatized by Sodexho) were picketing in front of our local hospital, and then a few blocks south, Telus workers were walking the picket lines.

The word onslaught comes to mind.

This stand is going to take courage on the part of leaders like Jinny Sims and strength on the part of unions and their membership... and necessitates that all of us who value the upholding of human rights are willing to "stay the course" even if the consequences of doing so become extremely challenging.

The unions tried to win the last election and they lost. You lost. Now your trying to fight what the PEOPLE of BC voted for. This is not about the students. This is a political fight because Jinny is mad that the NDP didn't win the last election. After all no corporation, individual or union spent more money than the BCTF in the last election. That is a fact.

None of your posts are about the betterment of education. They are all left wing ideological rants about trying to privatise the education system. That is pure propaganda and you all know it. The teachers want to work less and get paid more. So far they have yet to budge on any issue as well. They want complete control of their workplace which is plain wrong. A union by definition is looking out for the best interests of themselves and not the students.

The union constantly rejects any attempt to better the education system by working with all the other stakeholders. They are looking out for themselves and themselves only. They are a morally korrupt and dirty union and with any luck this strike will be the end of this political organization. That way kids can actually get whats best for them instead of whats best for the union.

John N: That's funny, but the BCTF is a legal, democratic, organization run by elected officers, not a top down secret, disorganized, corporation run like the Royal Kingdom of Kambell.

Gary: I resist "Fiberal" in that "fib" suggests that the LIES are harmless or insignificant!!

On the BCTF:

The BCTF will NOT be broken by this government, by privatization, or any other fear-myth people would like to invent. On the other hand the organizational talent and skills of individual BCTF members may cause the legal and much-needed downfall of this government at election time. Then perhaps B.C. employees can rejoin the rest of the free world in the right to have their product/service fairly traded in a slave-free marketplace.

B.C. has no idea what children would be going through without the BCTF to stand up for their learning conditions, including "HEAT" in winter, clean water, no mould, safety and equality for students, adequate resources, etc. etc.

The Republic of Ireland's ASTI (secondary teachers' union) and INTO (primary & elementary teachers' union) operate nationally with close to the same population as B.C. Virtually ALL schools in the country are private. The unions have the right to strike. Why pick that example? Similar size, same language ... but ... Irish teachers are paid much more than B.C. teachers. B.C.'s present private schools represent an elite purpose minority. If the whole system is private, that no longer holds, as all children will have to be educated in that system. Only money would distinguish. So, a private system would be much the same as the public system that we have, except that our existing private school teachers would need a raise and would probably be included in the union. It is a wild assumption that "private" means less union.

Teachers must start to consider their salaries seriously. The government is counting the large numbers of teachers coming up for retirement, all of whom have had to contribute to the pension fund (no choice) for the duration of their careeers. As their pension is a percentage of their existing income (i.e. a percentage of the average of each teacher's best 5 years) which has lagged far behind cost of living increases, a huge segment of teachers will be suffering substantial income loss for the rest of their lives, unless this is rectified, now.

Good for the BCTF and Sims. There is lots of support out here!

"The BCTF doesn't give a rat's ass about fines, as they can easily raise the dues of their members/sheep." Nemesis.

What comes out of the other side of your mouth, Nem? This side only spews crap.

Everytime you've opened it thus far this issue, you've only displayed for all to see here, who know a thing or two about real unions and how they work, that you don't know jackshit.

For starters, the BCTF is the membership who pay the dues. Whether those folks know it or not. And like in any "basic" democracy, basic such as exists within extant capitalism, the majority of who shows up on voting day, rules.

It was good enough for Gordo, eh. And you don't have a problem with that. (Another one of those examples of brownshirt shape-shifting)

Jim, you are supposed to be still writing your lines. A thousand times, "I will learn not to be such a doofus!"

You can participate in kindergarten class again, only when you've learned that.

Students in grades 10, 11, 12 presently will be eligible to vote in the next provincial election in 2009. Strategically, the more teachers (particularly) women, who are seen to be arrested, the better it is for the BCTF, and other Unions.

The New Democrats that are attempting to distance themselves from Unions, will achieve just that as Campbell will be pitted against 'women'(more teachers are women).

These young people need to have a visible reason to vote against something. This will be the catalyst for an increase in their participation.

(The more subtle backdrop to this will feature mothers in the United States CNN, ABC etc. as Hillary Clinton starts her move to Senator than to White House, protesting the war in Iraq).

The students and teachers can sing (from John Lennon)," all we are saying is give kids a chance."

Teachers can hold impromptu tutorials at picket sites, with both teachers and children reading passages from Crime and Punishment.

The BCTF has been given the hammer, they simply need to recognize it, watch as their influence reaches critical mass and go to the proverbial wall, (even farther than anyone expects). In the early nineties this featured the environmentalists being dragged away by the police. More and more people were volunteering. The students will volunteer, their parents (particularly those in the suburbs many of whom are walking a little dead) will see the passion in their kids and they will get behind the message.

Everyone needs a reason to believe in something. I think a guy like Cammpbell takes this 'spirit' away. So there is a vaccumm of sorts in the psychology of the people.

But I would not bring in the whole labour movement yet. I would allow Sims and the teacher's to go through the first phase, (the arrests etc.), the contempt, the whole 'sixties' optics. They must be seen as victims.

Once the government (Campbell) has been clearly seen to be the tyrant, (police maybe pepper spray etc-see Chretien) than the labour movement begins to come in gradually than in larger measure (enough is enough-Campbell must resign etc.)

The Teachers and the labour movement need to be able to say at the end of this, we didn't want this, it was Gordon Campbell's making.

Campbell is an easy role for the villain, the teacher's have their base of support, now they need to add to it, with the fencesitters, who will be aghast once they see arrests (national news etc.)

I feel sorry for you, Jim. You are so blinded by FIBeral propaganda that you can't see the forest for the trees.

I've been to the last few AGMs of the BCTF. We knew that it could very well come to a strike and a fight with the government long before the election was called. Regardless of what you may think, the BCTF did NOT endorse the NDP in the last election. What we were trying to do was avoid another four years of the Liberals and their lies. The NDP hasn't done all that well by teachers either although their members have made some wonderful and very knowledgeable speeches in teachers' defense. We would have been in for a bit of a fight no matter which party came into office, it's just more difficult with the Liberals. Ohhh and if the only thing this was about was being angry about the NDP losing the election, there is NO WAY I would set myself up to go to jail nor would I be so willing to walk the picket line. But this truly is about the students, no matter what you think.

If you took the time to truly educate yourself on the issues then you wouldn't be referred to as a doofus by other posters. Isn't it better to learn about both sides of an issue before jumping on a bandwagon? You are in the minority, you know. I've even heard people asking about a recall vote on top of a general strike!!

el gordo is the one I want to see rotting in a jail cell for a few decades, in with the general population!

Does anybody know the details of tomorrows hearing at BC Supreme Court? I'm thinking it might be a good idea to turn out for it. It is not our right and responsibitlity to witness the "rule of law." However, as in any dispute I will revert to the wishes of the union.

Is not our right and responsibitlity to witness the "rule of law."

The right to strike is an entirely different and separate issue from the supervision of students. In many jurisdictions in B.C., the administration supplies supervision for vulnerable children and working families during this strike. For some reason though, the Vancouver School Board "is not able" to do that. This is stupid, since Vancouver probably has the highest population of vulnerable children in the entire province. Some children who are not adequately supervised at home may end up wandering the streets, and educators are well aware of this reality. Teachers have deliberately chosen a profession in which they are on the front lines of care, for the most vulnerable of citizens. This responsibility cannot be offloaded. Go ahead and strike ... stop teaching ... stop working. But don't you dare just cast off the children who need you, without somehow providing for their care. That is blatantly wrong. Teachers have my support for their job action, but I am incensed at the lack of supervision in Vancouver. I will remember this, come election time in November. I am appalled by the obstinacy and obvious lack of caring exhibited by this School Board, who should step in to provide supervision of students if the B.C.T.F. won't do it. You should all be deeply ashamed of yourselves.

Ontario teachers are watching the B.C.T.F. closely.

As one of them said to me, "B.C. teachers are going through exactly the same things as were dumped on us by the Mike Harris government."

Chella, what are YOU organizing in regards to care for the kids? Teachers feel they have no choice but to address deteriorating education conditions, at the moment. They're busy.

Surely there are other possibilities, through rec centres, libraries, churches? Perhaps this is something you can help out with.

Teachers care, very much. This strike is necessary. Allowing the system to further deteriorate will not help students in the long run. Emergency response always cautions to look to your own safety, first, because you cannot help others if you're injured or unconcious.

Because of the governments actions, this strike is necessary.

Rally in support of teachers

http://www.bcfed.com/NR/rdonlyres/e5qum2e5tucfexel567usztljxjfoqxepsgp6kwp3d7fdpgn7wv4jpp6ewt6dn5v4y7ztpwg7rezyj/BCFedBCTFrally.pdf

As a wise man once said 'The law is a ass.'

That's a good one, goatdancer. Dickens' Mr. Bumble acquired his wisdom the hard way, when he was a whole lot sorrier. To be sure, there are a whole lot of Bumble-types floating around the province, since someone voted for the Liberals.

Chella,
The job of teachers is to teach, not provide free child care.
Maybe you should begin to picket or do something else about the lack of child care in BC rather than blaming the teachers.

Oh boy I hate to admit it, deep down in my bones and from my soul, I hate to admit that Jim has a point....hold on before you leap to the keyboards!
This is not about education, we all know, even the noe-cons, that we want education and a quality one, this is..and here's where he is right..about union busting, and our "left wing rants".
While Jim is sitting in the corner, writing out his lines (and I think that was overly generous; probably in a private school he'd get the strap for subversive thinking) we have to find a way of talking to the Jim's of this world. The rhetoric has clearly not worked, logic doesn't seem to have much effect. What were the 40%, give or take, of voters who didn't show up for the last election thinking? What will it take to make them say, "oh, maybe it does matter what I have to say" and get their asses down to vote. The neo-cons have done a superlative job of spinning the issues, framing them in such a way to make them appear to be the obveous choice. We need to get past the one line explainations and ask the tough questions that go to the heart of the headlines. Get past the one line answers; why IS Jinny prepared to go to jail? probably not because she wants a seat in government...if that were the case Hinkley (the one who shot John Lennon) would be sitting in congress now.
This is a fight to the end but it will be fought on TV, not in the streets.That 40% are not being fed the issues, they are being fed the lines, and they are deep down not entirely comfortable with it, but have no other resources to look to to get the answers that they seek. A quick hit answer in most cases; the ones they are getting they don't like.
Now let's all sit back and try and figure out how to make Jim say..."You may have a point" or "I'll grant you that, but".

Teacher's should not be able to strike. The law says that I am required to have my children in school.

As an alternative, if teachers do strike it's my view that the government should be required to provide child care. A tax credit for any money I pay for child care for the duration of a strike may be a viable option, but puts a burden on those who can least afford it and depend on the public system.

This is not about free baby sitting. As one teacher suggested, two families get together, hire a high school student to watch the kids, ask her/him to tutor them. Who knows maybe she/he will enjoy it so much they might want to become a teacher. Split the cost and get at best, 1/8 teacher/student ratio. win win, extrodinary times call for extrodinary action.

I agree, Darcy! Teachers should not be allowed to strike. They are needed by the children of this province. After school programs should be mandatory, as well as lunch time activities and early morning activities, all supervised by teachers.

In fact, teachers should be at school 24-7. If they weren't married and didn't have families, they'd be far more effective at providing education, daycare AND entertainment for our children.

Teachers should be treated as though they had enlisted in a special government program. The fact that they complain with as much as a 1% raise per year over the past ten years is outrageous! If they stayed at schools, and were provided room and board, the system would be much more efficient. Think of what a good art teacher could do with one of the old portable classrooms!

My point exactly, where is the logic in "teachers should be a babysitting service". CTV news spent more air time on what parents are dealing with to get their kids looked after than on what teachers are striking for.

"... we have to find a way of talking to the Jim's of this world." wrote sumctea.

I understand your desire to do good works with regard to Jim and his ideological/moral type. Good people sometimes find it difficult to cast anyone loose on their own, even as they drag down the boat you are on, as part of their own death wish.

Jim, on the other hand, has hung around Tyee for a long time, espousing his extreme right wing, working class contrarian position. Which is okay. I even have a crude, tough love sympathy in regards to Jim myself. As one might have for any pathetic person, unable to distinguish between what is in his interests, and what is not.

But if you think you are going to convince Jim with the logic of your ideas and your "pure love" humanitarian positions, I fear, you are only beating your head against a brick wall.

(Though over time, some of them MAY eventually work it out, and the keel plug back in the bottom of the boat they are sinking on. The greater number of them, however, will likely go down with their boat. Another simple fact of life. The trick is, not to let them take you down with them.)

Jim is not swayed by logic. He is a true believer of the neocon/brownshirt position and political tradition. He is working class himself, but as a measure of his own self-loathing, he hates his own class. Has not but contempt for it. Not unlike slave Uncle Toms, who were convinced that their own slavehood was only ustified and right, and that "the masah" is indeed superior and deserving that the faithful render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars.

Forget Jim. In my view. His positions have to be challenged because they are the dominant ruling class view of the world, carried by pathetic souls/slaves, who believe in the justice of their own slavehood. It is, so it is meant to be, eternally immutable. Strange I know, but no less true.

(Funny, but a tv news programme I watched yesterday had a middle-aged male teacher walking the line, who had that same slave, Uncle Tom view of the situation he was caught up in. He was walking the line, only because he didn't have the courage to do anything else, and had to, to get his strike pay.)

Nothing can be done for Jim that he is not prepared to do for himself. He is just that pathetic and inadequate.

Some folks simply are lost causes. Another fact of life. Cut them loose before they take you down with them.

These responses are interesting but completely miss the point. Have I said that I am "blaming teachers"? No. I said that some supervision is necessary here. I have raised the issue of highly vulnerable children and families, who really have no options, no money, no ability to take time off of work. The response, "This is not about free child care" makes no sense. These comments were completely non-responsive. What about parents who speak no English, and don't understand any of this? And by the way, as you may have guessed, I am a single working parent, absolutely cash strapped myself. Why should I have to picket, and "organize child care" as has been suggested, when I am already completely run off of my feet? I have to work. I repeat, because obviously I wasn't heard at all -- other jurisdictions are providing supervision during the strike. Why can't Vancouver do so? And why do people respond to this question with nonsensical platitudes and simply shift the issue back onto me? Because they have no legitimate response, that's why. Nobody will address the issue of vulnerable children and families with serious issues, who have now been made even more vulnerable by this action. I am speaking about marginalized people. I can anticipate the next response: "Chella, why don't you do something to help out those people?" Again, I am simply not in a position to "organize something". I don't have a car, I do everything on foot, I work. People who are living lives of privelege don't seem to understand anything except the parameters of their own lives. Typical. And incidentally, I did say that I support the teachers in the strike, but that supervision during the strike is an entirely separate issue. Funny that people chose to completely ignore that comment, isn't it. Has it not occurred to you that some people cannot afford ANYTHING for child care, especially in these types of sudden circumstances? Wake up and try to see people who don't have what you have. Ruby and sumctea: will you pay for my son's child care? I'll give you my address, and you can send me a cheque. How about it? Is that good for you?

Quit your whining, and do what you have to do to look after your own kids. Quit trying to dump your problem off onto teachers. (I'm not a teacher.)

The wee beggars are way more resilient than you give them credit for. Sounds like you and Louise are not though.

What we have here is not so much a kid problem, as an ADULT problem (with a few)-, in serious need of a political and real life education.

Politics which this issue is all about, relates to what moves the population, or people or interests at any given time, even when they are reluctant to move. How one implements politics to be successful often depends on timing.

When the BC Liberals and teachers first went through this after the 2001 election, the lines used by the government resonated with the people. We need to clean the province up, we need to work on the finances etc. The people accepted all of this at this time. So did the teachers.

The BC Liberals (as many people have noted) than went on to crow about how they had turned the economy around. They are optimistic and speak of a golden decade.

You cannot speak in such glowing terms unless you have your ducks lined in a row. The government did not have its ducks in a row on the education file. They were lazy and complacent and obviously did not game out circumstances they knew, or ought to have known would emerge.

I can tell you right now, that the caucus, or the Cabinet simply decided they would go to the legislative/court order solution. Easy and it works.

Not necessarily true. The Rule of Law doesn't mean as much when the people don't trust the courts, and right now for a myriad of reasons, the majority of people don't trust the courts. The courts did not help themselves when the top court decided to take an activist role of sorts on the same sex issue. Once done, even if people are sympathetic to an issue like human rights, the people see the courts in a less 'ordained' way. (Activism is often contra to structural conservatism).

When the Supreme Court of Canada moves away from precedent tradition and stare decisis than the perception of law is that it is activist.

The teachers are moving in an activist direction on a law that is by definition a law, but it isn't a law in the sense that it will hold the people back from accepting the activism of the teachers. To wit: the teachers behaviour is no different than the court behaviour. In both instances they are operating from the point of conscience.

The people have witnessed court activism at the highest level (when it suits the courts and the lawyers), and now it wants to prevail the law as a hammer when it needs to.

Politically, it is a tough sell.

Yes Coyote, you are right, my supervisor keeps telling me to stop try to resue people. BUT, you are cutting them loose with a dangerous weapon in their hands...the vote.
You right, Jim has been fed since birth a staple diet of transference; of identifying with the oppressor. There are however enormous numbers of people who obiously haven't made up their minds, or who don't believe they can be a voice, who haven't heard anything that they can identify with.

Get busy with folks of like mind Chella, and organize the care of your children. Get after the government to come up with a daycare alternative, if you are so pressed you cannot do it yourself. Something more important than wee Johnny or Jane missing a few days of school is happening here.

This will soon be over, and you and the wee darlings will get on with your lives, scarcely if at all harmed.

Unless, of course, you are one of life's walking egg shells.

Louse, has anybody said that teachers should be forced to supervise other people's kids 24/7? Did anybody say that teachers should provide supervision during their own strike? Has anybody demanded babysitting from teachers? No, the point being made here is that some provision should be made for vulnerable children, and cash-strapped and busy working families during a strike, as it is in many, cities, in many parts of the world, in Canada, and even in B.C. How do you get "teachers should be slaves" from that? Interesting logic, Louise.

Coyote -- no, I am not one of life's walking egg shells, but let's just say that I speak for the walking egg shells, who are so fragile that they won't be able to respond to your comment. I am one with the egg shells, I feel deeply for the egg shells. Somebody has to.

Go for it, Chella! Contact the Vancouver School Board, the school trustees and your MLA.

Talk to the man in charge! Tell Gordon Campbell, after all, he is responsible for this mess.

Where is your sympathy for the teacher who is also a single Mom, run off her feet, commuting to work, and coping with excessive, unreasonable demands by a bullying government?

The teachers on the picket line are on the picket line because they are ALSO past coping!!!

If parents and teachers get together and lay this problem where it belongs, at Mr. Campbells feet, and INSIST on change, maybe it will happen.

Campbell wants you to blame the teachers so he can send them back to work in increasingly crowded classrooms, downtrodden and demoralized. If parents turn to home schooling and private schooling, he can put more money into tax cuts for the wealthy.

Teachers are speaking up for themselves AND the parents and student of this province.

Parents and teachers together can generate change. There's extra money and we can stop the deterioration of the system if it's put back into education. (There's more per pupil money, yes, but the government never mentions the downloaded costs which didn't have to be covered previously; the net result is underfunding)

Louise -- I hate Gordo as much as you do. I do sympathize with teachers, I keep repeating myself. I have already had a go at the V.S.B. over the lack of supervision, believe you me. I deeply admire teachers. I am not blaming you teachers for the lack of supervision, but I don't know enough about the system to know who should be providing the supervision -- the B.C.T.F? The V.S.B.? You tell me.

OK, Chella, imagine this for one lovely, imaginary moment. Gordon Campbell is relaxing at his vacation home, apparently on the picturesque Sunshine Coast, when 12 school buses pull up. The drivers pause and the doors open. All of the kids you have been able to round up run merrily across the Campbells lawn, down to the beach.
And then you sit down with Campbell and ask him your question, "Gordon, I don't know enough about the system to understand who should be providing the supervision these children need and deserve. So I've brought them here. Hope the fridge is full!"

Chella, I am not in any way discounting your very real child care crisis. No I can't pay your childcare, I'm a single mother, not only without cash, but up to my eyeballs in student loans. Luckily my child is in grade twelve...at least from a child care perspective...unfortunately, he will be sitting provincial exams in a few month which will determine the REST OF HIS LIFE. I've worked every day of my two childrens lives, juggling daycare, grandparents and friends when they got sick. I've been to the trenches and in no way am I minimizing the fact that there are grossly inadequate provisions made for childcare in this country. Women have to work...provision must be made. But don't muddy the issue of education and the right to stike with the seperate issue of childcare...which, I reiterate is a VERY big, but entirely seperate issue.

Well sumctea we will have to agree to disagree on this one. Since my young child is normally under the charge of his teacher and the school, I feel that the school should have something in place for him and for the other kids. Once your child is school age, you are supposed to be able to count on that as a place for your child to go each day, as the PD days and holidays are spelled out in advance. This strike is creating hardship which could be easily addressed, as it is in other cities, by providing supervision in the school. Why is this such a terrible thing to ask for? I seriously don't understand why that would be so hard to provide. And to Louse: It is a lovely picture, but will you pay for the bus unloading the kids onto Gordo? I can't afford it, sorry.

There are countries, more social program oriented than ours, in which schools are in the midst of being mandated to provide 7am-7pm services. In the UK all schools are required to have such programs in place by 2010. The out of tutorial programs are required to have non-teaching staff on hand, even a nurse. This has been demanded by the people because it is necessary.
If nothing else, this strike has highlighted this need. Demand that this be addressed, but not by the teachers.

Jinny Sims and the rest of the Union Goon Squad should be arrested and jailed.

The BCTF does not have a case for any of their damands. Just look at the BCTF research page, all the numbers show normalcy.

Seems to me that the BCFED along with the other public service unions are putting the BCTF into a test case, where if they are successful, then the BCGEU, CUPE, BCNU and others can take a cue and demand ever increasing items. All of this to the detriment of the taxpayer.

While there may be room to give the teachers a COLA increase, the major issue seems to be the matter of special needs kids. The special needs folks are taking away huge resources from the teacher and the education system as a whole. A new solution is required for the special needs kids; perhaps a separate school or at least a separate classroom for them alone.

Given all that, the Union wogs should be charged and sent to jail for a significant period of time, and the BCTF along with supporting unions ought to be levied heavy fines for defying government.

Ohhhhh sdgreen, I absolutely CANNOT ignore your comments. Are you living in the dark ages when you say "A new solution is required for the special needs kids; perhaps a separate school or at least a separate classroom for them alone."?????? I'm not even going to bother getting into an argument about this with you. I just can't believe that anyone in this day and age would say such a thing. You might be able to tell by my sign-in name that special needs students are near and dear to my heart. They are the reason I'm fighting this fight AND risking arrest. Special needs children deserve an appropriate education in the least restrictive environment. Even the US knows that!! Ohhhh comments like that make me angry.

Louise: you were joking about teachers providing care for kids 24/7, right???

Chella: I feel for you. I am a single mom who receives no child support and works very hard too. I can empathize with you. I really don't know what to tell you that hasn't been said before. I can only repeat the suggestion that you contact your local school board and/or try to organize some care with your neighbors. Don't forget the high school students are home. That's who is providing daycare for my son when I'm on the picket line. I am sorry that the strike is affecting you in this way but one has to look at the big picture here. The government has forced us (teachers) into a corner. We are tired of sitting back and taking it and if we don't fight the Liberals who else will protect our students? The BCPAC seems to be wearing blinders. Unfortunately, of all organizations other than BCTF, BCPAC is in the best position to defend public education but they choose not to. (At least last time I saw any communication from them they were supporting govt. as opposed to teachers). Heyyyy why don't you contact BCPAC and ask them for help? It's the least they could do

Chella thinks that school is for BOTH child care and education. Gotta save them tax dollars, and don't Gordo know it!!!

Well said soylent! Can I call you soylent green? Does the "d" stand for "dumbkoff"? \

Horse whipping' too good fer 'em. The lot of 'em. Especially those special need gimps. Load 'em into rail cars and ship 'em to a gulag. Say! How about you, me, and my cousin Ron Erwin phone Dubya, and he can pressure our new railway overlords to arrange for a couple hundred cattle cars...hmmm..

Yup, that dag nabbed BCTF ".. does not have a case for any of their damands.." Lookit how they taught you to spell demands? See?
And that COLA raise yer jawin about? I'm all fer that, a can of cola fer each teacher every month. Long as they's not yeewnyun. We cain't afford no gosh durned yeewnyunns in this here province. My cousin Ron done tol' me them dat durned Big Layber'll rooin it fer all dem rich folk. And their sharecroppers.

I have indeed contacted the Vancouver School Board and have indicated that I am not pleased, shall we say, at their being "not able" to provide supervision during this strike. I think this speaks to their collective lack of experience, and I will remember this come municipal election time next month in Vancouver.

The marginalized among us are being left completely off of the page here. I will personally get by, but many are seriously up a creek without a paddle. Those people aren't logging in to The Tyee though. I'll bet the reason that there is no supervision in Vancouver, is because generally, the more hardship and inconvenience is caused, the more effective the strike. This means that the marginalized folks who have nowhere to put their kids are being sacrificed, in order for a point to be made. This is too harsh.

By the way, to score points off of the backs of people who are enduring hardship makes you no better than Campbell and his ilk.

If I am wrong, and the lack of supervision here is NOT to score more points, then why can't the B.C.T.F. fund and organize in-school supervision? Will somebody please answer this question? Nobody has given me an answer yet. I keep just getting rhetoric, theme songs, and slogans, with the odd bit of sympathy thrown in for good measure -- but no answers to the simple question: why won't teachers acknowledge some degree of responsibility for the children who are normally in their charge? Are you not professionals who owe a duty to the children you teach? Can you not balance this duty with your right to protest? If not, then why not? PLease -- no more slogans. Just an answer, please.

Hey "skylla" -- I like your logic -- very imaginative. Because I count on my child being able to attend school, so that I can work and make money and support my family as the sole breadwinner, this means that I think that school is for "both education and child care". Well, isn't it? How do you teach a child, if the child isn't there? My child is normally there, which means that I am able to work, because people there are looking after him. No? These are the FACTS, aren't they? Aren't they looking after him while he is there? I thought that they were. Am I missing something here?

So, apparently then, I am NOT supposed to be counting on school to be there for my child. This really confuses me. And, when this place that he is able to go to is suddenly yanked from me, I am supposed to just sit down and shut up, say nothing, otherwise I'm "blaming teachers". Twisted logic, to be sure. And still no answer to my question, of WHY no supervision is provided here, like in other jurisdictions across B.C. I wonder why the answer is not forthcoming. Very interesting. Maybe you should attack my character next. That would fit the pattern.

To Chella;

Don't wait too long for the VSB to respond! They are mostly NDP/Union sycophants wna will not raise a finger!

To SpedTeacher;

Obviously if we have to have a number of teacher assistants in a classroom, indeed an individual special curriculum for each special needs student, that indicates to me that the prime teacher does have a major problem accomplish their teaching task.

The integration of the special needs students, for the most part has been a flop. The system needs to be dramtically changed to one which does not effect the mainstream student and teacher. I swould suggest that either there needs to be a much more stringent selection criteria for the special needs folks or otherwise a special school just for them. It is clear that the current cost, disruption and workload is a definite negative. Special education has become a separate industry away from the normal curriculum and that clearly indicates a need for change.

Gee, sdgreen, great idea sticking all the special needs students in a specialized school oh, hold it,- been there done that!!! Time proved that the line of treatment just made them totally dependant for life. Ever heard of Woodlands? Essondale? Riverveiw? Wanna guess how much it would cost to transport, care for, teach and support the variety of "special needs" kids to the age of 18? How about how much over 18 to old age would cost when they're unable to function in a society that they unprepared for?

Chella, you've answered it yourself. I'm led to believe that their are people out there who send their children to school to be educated not supervised. That is why we hire educators, not childcare workers to man the schools. If we need childcare, and I think that that need has been clearly articulated by the media and the parents, then demand universal, all encompasing childcare.
When my son writes his provincials soon, I need to know that the outcomes have more to do with the fostering of his abilities that the toxic environment that he has been supervised in for the past twelve years, ie overcrowed classrooms and disenfranchized teachers. Sorry I stoop to rhetoric again, but for the past five years it has all been about saving money and not about my child's and every other child's quality of education. If we can't afford to educate them properly...increase taxes don't deminish the teachers and the system in which they work. And, while on the subject of money, where are the hugh budget surpluses in this equation.

Chella: I also sympathize with your situation. I was a single parent in the 80's when we didn't have a lot of the progrsms there are today. I had to arrange for my own child care aqnd pay for it myself. Fotunately I made enough money to pay for it myself. And every once in a while I had a relative to help out with babysitting.

I sense that you may not even have enough to pay a sitter. But what if you were to hire a student, and make arrangements to pay a little at a time. This system would also give the student an income after the walkout.Don't forget to get receipts and ask if you can deduct your expenses.

Try whatever it takes. But ask yourself this. What will you do if the government privatizes the school system? One of the fallouts will be that you will have to pay for childcare AND schooling. You see, the governing party of the day would rather give welfare to corporations, rather than a single struggling parent.

I wish you well.

I am not quibbling with the right to strike. To sumctea: while my son is being taught, he is being supervised and cared for. He is under care, while he is being educated. You are splitting hairs. I don't believe in "universal daycare" by the way, not the way it is being lobbied for now -- because it funds only one style of child care -- the institutional style of care (now I'm talking about babies and toddlers). For pre-school aged kids, other forms of care are more effective than institutional-style. This is an entirely different issue. With school aged children though, I am entitled to view his attendance there as CARE. Teachers are supposed to care.

Chella, as a teacher, I don't get the feeling that you are blaming us for your predicament. (I could be wrong). However, I think the reason that you aren't getting an answer to your question is that this time there is no answer. Rulings by the LRB under the Essential Services act would probably have avoided the situation you and many others are in now by preventing a full blown strike. But, even those restrictions weren't good enough for the Libs and now teachers are exercising the only power they have left--the withdrawal of their labour. Throwing us in jail, as I've read elsewhere, won't solve this problem. The only way to solve the problem is if the Libs swallow some pride and show good faith by negotiating with us over the weekend. If they don't, teachers will be off the job for a long time, jail or not.

Chella. The reason their is no extra supervision where you are (I beleive that is in the greater Vancouver area) is that area has the largest population base and Gordo figures he will get more sympathy from people needing daycare.
By your comments I see that he is getting non from you. But this incompetent idiot that heads our government only looks at the loudest noise made in his favour. I sure hope there are thousands of others like you and I hope you all make noises he doesn't want to hear.

By the way you have a computer so you can E-mail the idiot and his cronies. Just go to gov.bc.ca and look for the emails you need. If you don't get any answers the first day try again.. and again. Then get some of your friends in the same situation to do the same. One thing for sure you will get their attention. And if enough of you do it it is quite conceivable that you could shut down the website. When that happens start dialing the phone numbers.

See. Wait long enough and it becomes apparent who is playing what role here. The obvious brownshirts such as sdgreen, ron vermin, jim and a number of others here, are playing the role they always play-, as the enemies of ordinary working people, constantly attacking the vanguard organizations that have historically defended their interests the most effectively, until recent Neoconazi Liberal/Conservative/Socred times. That being the persons of the trade union movement. These, of course, are the enemies with which we should by now be familiar, and to whom we should feel no real need to justify ourselves. They are joined with, and a part of, the enemy arrayed with the State and courts against us.

They are slaves loyal to "the masah". They have always been a problem element within ordinary working class life, such as the source of SCABS. (Something else we must talk about one day.)

But there are others, perhaps even again from amongst us, and pressed the tightest to the wall even, by the system, who rather than blaming their real oppressor, whom they fear and are more powerless to get at, blame others in their own social class mileu who are organized and able to take the system on. These pathetic souls are feeling put out because it "inconveniences" them some here.

Tough titty kitties. We all really do wish we had a magic wand to wave that would ensure the appearance of some entity to babysit your kids through this struggle, with those who rule over us. Whilst you, of course, as you expect, go off and look after yourselves, leaving us to our fate. But teachers do not, I assume, nor we who are supporting them, though we wish we did, do not have that magic wand to salve all of your inconvenience, or even real enough pain.

Guess what? That's life. If you haven't learned that by now, and lack the social skills, or network of mutual support, then learn something from this experience. Get off your ass and create it, instead of wasting your time whining about it here, expecting somebody else to solve all your problem for you, who is currently preoccupied in a deadly earnest struggle, trying to defend their own interests, as well as "objectively" your own and that of your kids, with whom you claim so much preoccupation, silly person.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Study more carefully the issue of who your friends really are and are not, and the direction in which your more natural and real allies are. The social system of which you are a part is coming unglued, as much, nay maybe even more, for you as teachers .

Quit your whining and get even.

Can't?

Figure it out. Or spend more time here developing your own ideas and social skill sets, rather than simply being a consumer/absorber of the corportate medias biased view of things and events, such as this struggle of the teachers with the Liberal government. (Likely the place from which your problems start.)

Did somebody promise you that your life would be a rose garden?

Well it is. Check out the thorns.

In no way do I blame teachers for this. This government is a criminal organization. Shirley Bond is a complete idiot. Gordon Campbell ought to be drawn and quartered. Just the sight of him makes my skin crawl, and this has been the case since Day One of his Reign of Stupidity.

On reflection, I believe that in other areas of the province, it is the School Board/Administration who are providing supervision.

So I think I have my answers now. My guess is that the B.C.T.F. won't provide supervision, because in doing so they would undermine their own strike. If you guys had just said this from the beginning, rather than "How dare you call us babysitters!", this would have saved me a lot of time and aggravation.

The government won't provide the supervision, because in doing so they would be supporting the strike action.

This leaves the Vancouver School Board. They are a left wing, inexperienced bunch, who have obviously chosen to support the teachers against the government, rather than supporting parents in their time of need. They probably feel that providing supervision would be dissing the teachers, which they are loath to do, so they have chosen to hang the parents out to dry. I won't forget this.

So, I've come up with a solution for myself, and perhaps for other parents out there who are in my predicament (i.e. not wealthy, with young kids and work). I am going to deduct my babysitting expenses, penny for penny, from my monthly "hot lunch" contribution, which goes to the Vancouver School Board. The "hot lunch" which is terrible food by the way, costs $50 per month. Parents can contribute less though, if they are strapped. So I won't be paying one dollar for my son's lunches, until I've recovered every cent I had to shell out for supervision, which the VSB should have been providing.

Good luck to you teachers. Anybody who sticks it to Campbell is okay in my books. But a hint: just be honest next time, and admit that you won't care for the kids during the strike because you feel it would undermine your bargaining position and the effectiveness of your job action, rather than trying to tell us that you aren't "child care providers". Sorry to inform you folks, but you are indeed de facto child care providers if you teach elementary school. This doesn't mean that we think any less of you though.

And to all you right wing nuts who support Campbell, well, you'd better hope real hard that you never have to experience real hardship in this province while those neo-cons are in power. Watch out for karma, it it going to kick you in the butt some day.

Chella, I don't have a car, I'm from a low income family & I grew up in a single parent home, so don't you dare accuse me or others of not knowing what low income people are going through. It is NOT the responsibility of school divisions to provide free day care for children. Why should the BCTF pay for & organize child care for you? I can't think of a single reason why they should. Teachers are responsible for children but only while school is in session. Right now school is not happening. Unfortunately, we have no child care system & that means you are responsible for your children. There are many teachers walking the picket line with their children in tow because they have no day care either.
I think you are doing exactly what Gordon Campbell wants, blame everyone except him for lack of quality child care. When universal child care is up & running I will gladly pay taxes to fund it.
I hope the strike will cause our communities to demand a low cost/ free child care system, rather than continuing to rely on the education system for that service.

Courts have always had the inherent power to deal with contempt, it is not modern. Rather, the modern legislature has turned over the specialized function of determination of an illegal strike to labour relations boards. Like any board order, this can be enforced by registering it in the court (just like enforcment of a finding of an unfair labour practice, or an illegal lockout). That's just...the rule of law. The dispute is rather with the content of legislation which makes certain matters the employer prerogative, and not bargainable. But that is not uncommon in statutes affecting public employees--at one time there was a debate among legal scholars as to whether such matter could even constitutionally be the subject of bargaining. The teacher's objection is to the content of the legislation, and there's a remedy: political action. Defying the courts is something you can't win, although it does sent a political message about the degree of the dispute. But let's not blame the courts for what we have entrusted them to do, and indeed rightly expect.

I meant to insert a smiley face after, "Check out the thorns." :-)

(And eh, my own daughter's husband, a logger, is currently laid off, as a result of the US lumber deal, and has a problem with UI. So he's not making a dime.
My daughter is On Strike with CUPE, supporting the teachers, getting strike pay of $10 a day. They both have a mortgage to pay, two sons who are not in school now as well, of course, and can't afford a babysitter. They both, however, understand the importance of supporting this strike of teachers, and I haven't heard a whine out of either one of them. Which makes me proud.)

I did not have the benefit of Coyote's abuse before posting my last comment, unfortunately. Let's see ... I think that this person has called me: "silly", "Pathetic", "lacking of social skills", and a "whiner", simply because I want what parents in other school districts have -- supervision for my child. Oh, and I also lack ideas, and a "social skill set".

Well it seems that it is you, Coyote, not I, who are sorely lacking in social skills, since you seem unable to carry on a civilized discussion without engaging in name calling and accusations. (See -- I knew that the character assassination would come in at some point.) You should study yourself, Coyote. Read your posting, then read mine. Who is the pathetic one? I'll let the other readers decide.

It really hurts when people score points during an argument, doesn't it, Coyote? OUch ... your wounds are showing. Better go lick them now.

Ruby, I don't see how a universal child care system would help under these circumstances. What kind of system would be able to absorb all of these older children who normally attend school, on such short notice? That isn't a funding issue, it is a practical one. Why is it that some school districts in this province provide superivison within the schools during this strike, while others do not? I never did get an answer to this, but I think I've figured it out. It depends on the politics of the respective school boards in question. If you are lucky enough to live in a district with a school board who sympathizes with parents, you get free supervision. If you are unlucky enough to live in Vancouver or other areas where the school boards have refused, too bad for you. This is an inequity, it isn't fair. And I am perfectly within my rights to point out this inequity, like it or not.

Good for you Chella, for figuring that out now start e mailing the provincial gov't and your city council and the school board . Might I suggest also that you track down one of the school districts that is supplying supervision and find out who is doing the supervision .

I doubt it's the teachers but the specific info in the right/enough ear(s) might get the ball rolling for those that need it.

Chella, I'd like to thank you very much for your words of support for the teachers, especially given how the strike is causing you such problems. Please remember that if teachers are a tad sensitive about the issue of childcare it is because many people consider us a babysitting service and, as I'm sure you can understand, it is rather insulting. I don't have an explanation for the nastiness from non-teachers though, I'm afraid.

I want to stick it to Gordo too, Chella. And I completely agree with you about Shirley Bond too. She really needs to invest in a thesaurus, don't you think? Surely she could come up with a different phrase once in a while than "I"m very disappointed in the teachers". She was the ChairPerson of our School Board before her move to Victoria. There are a lot of things that she supports now that she protested very strongly against when she was on our Board. Strange how a politician's tune changes once they are in Victoria, don't you think? Shirley is a tad sensitive about her lack of post-secondary education. Use that against her if you like. Here are the email addresses for you. Good luck in writing to them. They might answer you since you are a parent but I'm sure you will just get a lot of political crap as a response (if you get one) and I'm almost positive they would both blame either the teachers or the School Board or both.

OR

I wrote to them today and a friend urged me take out this line to Gordo because she said I would attract more flies with sugar lolol: "There is a slogan circulating amongst teachers that has given us a few giggles. It says "Breaking the law .. Gordo can do it, why can't I?" That makes me chuckle everytime lol. Feel free to use the line if you like

I truly do wish there was something I could do to help you at this time. I assure you that teachers did not go into this strike lightly. It took a lot of soul searching for all of us. Regardless of what some people think, teachers never want to go out on strike. We are in this profession because we love children. Unfortunately, there comes a time when the big picture is the most important and that's why we felt it was time to take a stand. If we lived closer, I would be more than happy to help you (as long as you didn't mind your children coming with me on the picket line lol). I'm helping out friends and family with their kids too.

One positive point though .. you are very lucky you live in a community where hot lunch is provided. We aren't so fortunate in my school district. If children come to school hungry at my school they are fed with food supplied by our PAC for that purpose or (when the PAC cupboard is bare) teachers give them food out of their lunches.

I hope everything works out for you. Try to keep in mind that your children will benefit in the long run if teachers achieve at least some of what we are fighting for. As someone pointed out earlier, private school tuition is expensive.

Thanks Blonde Pitbull. I will do that. With a municipal election coming up, making noise about the supervision issue might actually bear fruit. I will do my best.

I managed to google thirty school boards for child supervision and, of the two dozen or so that have a notice regarding teacher job action, they all note that they can't provide instruction or adequate supervision and request that parents do not send their children to school.

Chella,
there is another reason why the VSB will not provide supervision for your children, and that is liability. If the administration were to offer to supervise for families that had no alternatives, they could find themselves in a situation where they could not guarantee the safety of the kids. And with the janitors and other support workers also out, heat and light and cleanliness would also become an issue.

I do not believe that other boards in BC are providing supervision, by the way. At least, I haven't heard of any who are.

I know that teachers are very sensitive about the issue of providing childcare, because they feel that people do not respect the very difficult work that they do as educators. I think you ran into a bit of that sensitivity here today.

Chella...rather than the school board supplying some type of day care for you, contact your school's PAC or the gov't appointed DPAC. It is their mandate to speak for and defend the rights of ALL the parents (just a heads up...don't expect much as most of these DPAC members are Liberal supports ie. Richard Stewart in SD 43 (Coquitlam)).

Your child's PAC committee may have some suggestions to benifit your child during this unrest.

Dear spedteacher: Well that was refreshing. You are right -- I should appreciate the hot lunch program here more than I do. Thanks for your support, it means a lot. It is problematic that all of my friends also work. I have a few neighbours who are home, but I do not know them well enough to be entirely comfortable leaving my child with them all day long, not to mention no money to pay them. Also, I live in mixed housing and unfortunately, there are some serious problems with some of my neighbours. However I am going to try and explore that further. Coyote's comments about me "lacking a social skill set" were particularly hurtful, as I am quite embarassed to find myself in this position. Nasty piece of work, that Coyote. OH well. As I said, you always know that you've scored some points, when somebody descends to that level during a discussion.

Rest assured, I already have Shirley and Gordon's email addresses, as I've emailed them both numerous times in the past on various issues. I agree that Shirley can barely string a sentence together, it boggles the mind. I always get the "Thank you, my staff is looking into it" bulk response, but that doesn't stop me. I've emailed the VSB with my concerns. You never know, maybe they will come through and change their minds. I don't know if it's a financial or political reason for their being "unable" to provide supervision, but I will hold their feet to the fire in order to find out. The real trick will be finding the time to do all of this, but it is worth it.

The only people discussing this seem to be teachers, and right wing nuts. I'm caught in the middle. I suppose that most people in my position do not have the time, resources, ability, and will to engage in this particular discussion here, which is why I appear to be on my own. (Remember that even having a computer is a privelege that many do not enjoy.) But that's okay, I can hold my own against the best of the name-callers.

It's nice to know there are some kind people out there in cyberspace. Obviously, you are in Special Ed for all the right reasons. I wish you all the best. Thanks for understanding.

sdgreen,

OK I'm going to bite lol. Before 2002, I was the full-time special needs teacher working with mentally challenged children. There was also a full-time Learning Assistance teacher. Now there is just me to do both jobs. My school amalgamated with another school that was closed which increased our school population by over 100 students yet we have less support for the students who need extra support. I'm not telling you this to try to garner sympathy. I'm telling you this because it is an unfortunate reality in the Liberal's BC.

Due to the lack of funding, special ed. teacher positions are usually less than full-time. Add that to the increased paperwork demands of these positions plus insufficient teacher assistant time and you get a lot of burnout. Many experienced spec. ed. teachers are returning to the classroom because there is more stability in these positions. This means that the positions are often filled by teachers wanting to "top off" their contract to be full-time and/or beginning teachers. So now there are many teachers in the spec. ed. field who have not had the experience nor the specialized training and they have to learn on the job. This is not the fault of the teachers but another reality under Gordo's regime.

So there is less spec. ed. teacher time, fewer experienced spec. ed. teachers, insufficient teacher assistant time, and larger class sizes. Getting the picture????? To blame or punish the special needs children by suggesting they get tucked away in a segregated class or school because the Liberal government can't see fit to provide adequate funding is ridiculous and shameful.

You think that all of these problems would be solved if you hid the spec. needs students away in the basement. I have taught in a segregated class, in a full-inclusion model, and now a combination of the two. I believe that my students are able to learn more in our present model. They learn more appropriate social skills because they have the "regular" students as models. They become true members of our school community as opposed to being tucked away. Other students benefit from the spec. ed. teacher and teacher assistant time as they can "piggyback" on these services. That can't happen within a segregated model. With a lot of hard work by the student, classroom teacher, teacher assistants, and myself, some of my students have improved their academic skills by an entire grade level in one year which is a huge gain for these kids. This is despite the government. It's because of all the hard work done by those of us at the school level.

My school district increases the spec. ed. budget supplied by the Ministry by more than most other school districts in BC and still there isn't enough support. Even if we had a fully segregated class, there would not be enough funding and supports in place. So your solution isn't the answer to the problem either. The only thing that will fix it is to provide the adequate support that teachers are asking for.

My students are citizens of this province just as any other child in BC, regardless of IQ. They don't deserve to be pushed aside because the Liberals are too busy paying for the Winter Olympics to provide adequate funding to our public education system. THAT is why I am walking the picket line. My students deserve the best education we can provide just as any other child does. Shame, shame on you.

Channel 9 news on Thursday evening listed the B.C. districts which are providing supervision within school during the strike, and those which are not. It seemed to be pretty evenly divided. They did not say how the children are supervised.

This is the reason I've been under the impression that some parents will enjoy this, while some will not. BC-CTV should have this information.

By the way, I do not know of one single person who does not appreciate teachers. Nobody that I know of thinks of you as glorified babysitters. I think you might be over-sensitive on that issue. True, many people likely have no idea just how hard it is to be in a room full of kids all day long. Not many people could do it, but I'm not sure what you can do about that. It's what you signed up for. You must just accept[I] that not everybody has a full appreciation for your job because they haven't tried to do it. That's the case with most jobs, by the way. Not just yours.

By the way, I resent the following comment: "Rather than the school board providing day care for you ..." I saw on the news that some schools are providing supervision. I didn't think that was fair. That's all. Enough with the "why should we give you free day care". It's getting tiring. We are going in circles. My son is 10, he does not need "day care". He needs something to do, with an adult in charge. Just like he has at school every day. I'm getting real tired of being accused of "looking for free daycare". In fact, I've definitely had enough of all of you for one evening (except the nice ones, which were few and far between).

In fact, some of you teachers really need to find an outlet for your anger, I'm afraid. And I don't think that a concerned parent is an appropriate outlet. You should really examine your own behaviour.

Maybe some of you need to go and get laid or something, or go out and hit a few golf balls. Whatever. My patience has evaporated.

Yes, it's clear that the PAC has been overtaken by BC Liberal supporters. Especially a woman I've heard on the radio, named Kim. She might as well be an employee of theirs.

Chella, I am not a teacher. Nor, do I have any children. I pay taxes for public EDUCATION. Not daycare. Although, I do support paying taxes for that should it ever materialize.

Another reason there isn't any supervision may be that Vancouver is a large city. It is possible (although it seems from the other posts that they are NOT providing supervision as you claim) that smaller commuinities are pooling their resourses because they know each other.

If you really are in the situation you claim to be, and not a troll, (Not knowing you, I have to wonder because of your posts) I can understand you are feeling stressed by this and also I understand that living in a large city one often doesn't have community support. That isn't a reflection on you. It may be a future goal for yourself, It's not your fault and nothing to feel inadequate over.

Chella, the teachers are fighting a battle that if you are a parent, dependent on the public school system, or public housing, or public anything, you'd better hope they win. If the gov't succeeds in breaking their union, your child will not have a public school to go to in a very few years. And, after the voucher system is established, school properties sold and developed, the voucher sytem will also be eliminated.

Wake up.

When I say wake up, I mean wake up and direct your ire towards the correct party.

Looks like the blathering whiners have completely taken over this page now. Led by spedteacher, who is, of course, a BCTF executive member. Next week we'll see the public's support for this ILLEGAL strike erode as the students lose more valuable time in the classroom. But that's okay b/c the BCTF has stated that they can stay out for 3 months without negatively affecting the students. Aren't they brilliant? Boy, I wish I had the opportunity to follow that kind of leadership. With friends like those...

Spedteacher

Thanks for the education, which annunciates the Special Needs kids industry.

The problem is that governments of all stripes have dealt with this issue, so you just cannot blame the Liberals. Right now the education budget is $5billion bucks giving nearly a per pupil value of nearly $7000. That value compares quite well with the other Provinces and indeed most other countries in this world of ours.

I have no doubt that those who are assigned to the needs of special needs kids are doing their levle best. What I question is the validity of doing so where these kids cause major problems in the class room. Again, I question the enrollment standards. Certainly there are special needs kids that can achieve a reasonable level within the class room, but there must be a level at which one must say no.

Some of the horror stories told by teachers concerning the special needs challenge leads one to the question of why are these kids in the class room. If a major effort is required to control a difficult or mentally challenged kid is at the point where such disrupts normal teaching, there is something very wrong with the system.

How much money do we spend on this issue? How much tax must we pay? Can we afford such at the expense of everything else? The BCTF presented their demands which in total would consume somewhere between $600million to $1billion additional funding.

It would be wonderful, if BC had the funding that Alberta has, but we do not, nor have we.

There is no doubt that teachers do a very good job, and indeed, no question your functions in the special ed environment must be commended. However, as a taxpayer, I do question the need for more dollars.

Government is spending huge tax dollars in Social Services, Health and Education, so much infact that other essential programs are suffering. All governments NDP or Liberal and the old Social Credit wrestled with this problem.

Bottomline, taxes at all levels are huge to a point where not much is left in the bank!

Teachers decide to strike and I am violating the law. That's not whining, that's someone else's whining turning me into a criminal.

I've got a good friend who just retired after 40 years of teaching. She worked hard - astonishingly so. Her pension reflects it.

Many many people here would feel differently about teachers if you actually knew what they made, rather than listened to the whining.

And, perhaps, if we weren't spending all this time and money legislating teachers back to work (money wasted on negotiations) we could get to the point of solving the real problems with our eduction system:
- class sizes are too large
- textbooks, libraries and other non-teacher resources are drastically underfunded and unavailable

and yes, teachers are free babysitters - except for those who can afford to put their kids into private schools, at least, or home school. Those are the only two alternatives.

I truly enjoy reading the postings on these pages. There are a lot of thoughtfull pros and conns to respond to.
And, after a while the bottom-feeders are so recognizeable by their consistent regurgitations, that I can avoid this annoyance with the skillfull use of my mouse.
I can't respond to their insults, because I no longer read their postings. Their opinions are not relevant to usefull discourse.

A major research institution has announced the discovery of the heaviest element yet know to science - "governmentium." It has 1 neutron, 12 assistant neutrons, 75 deputy neutrons and 111 assistant deputy neutrons for an atomic mass of 312. These 312 particles are held together by forces called morons that are further surrounded by vast quantities of lepton-like sub particles called peons.

Governmentium has no electrons and is therefore inert. It can be detected however since it impedes every reaction it comes into contact with. A tiny amount of governmentium can take a reaction that normally occurs in seconds and slow it to the point where it take days.

Governmentium has a normal half life of three years. It doesn't decay but "re- organizes", a process where assistant deputy neutrons and deputy neutrons change places. This process actually causes it to grow as in the confusion some morons become neutrons, thereby forming isodopes.

This phenomenon of "moron promotion" has led to some speculation that governmentium forms whenever sufficient morons meet in concentration forming critical morass. Researches believe that in Governmentium, the more you re- organize, the morass you cover.

I don't see much point continuing this with you Chella, and no doubt I may well lack some social skills. But then, yours are no less obvious.

You, however, I think, fail to see your own continuing hostility towards teachers, who have dared to defend themselves and their interests against an oppressive governmental regime without getting your approval first. It is there, scarcely suppressed throughout all of your posts, though you are clearly also trying to wrestle with it. (Good luck, in this battle with yourself.)

As for me, not that it's really important, what you see is what you get. I've very little patience left, after a lifetime of work and trade union activism, with working class folks who are always cutting off their own noses to spite their faces. Too many of them, through the good times from the 50s to the late '70s, they hayday of trade unionism and left wing politics, have come to forget the "people's history" of this country and province, and are more content generally to whine like spoiled brats now, attacking those very groups and people trying to defend all our interests, and prevent the ongoing social and economic erosion of ordinary peoples lives within current society. Typically, these whiners are only able to see the harm being done to their own lives.

I've taken your suggestion and re-read all my posts. I can live with them. Now re-read yours. How do you feel about your own posts now? Can you see and feel the scarcely suppressed resentment of teachers-, even while you try, try ,try to take more balanced and appropriate positions?

I manifest an undercurrent of rage, no doubt, but it is directed in quite another direction. :-D

In any case, this is my day to bake bread and buns for me and the Mrs. Were you in my town, I would invite you over for tea, our own strawberry jam and warm buns. :-) (No pun intended.) And we could discuss a whole bunch more. :-D

And I really do hope you find a solution for your babysitting problem, which I know, you don't really expect teachers to do. (A bit of irony tinged LOL.)

I have one thing to say this morning, and one thing only. Then I'm leaving, because I do have a have a life, and you people are highly frustrating.

Redrivergirl: I'm not a troll, you little beeyatch. And I'm not a liar. Why would I lie? Give me a break.

I speak for many parents in my position who won't be bothering with this page. I live in the inner city. I know very few other parents, and I don't have the time to begin cultivating "new friendships" just in case of the next strike, because I AM BUSY. Get it? BUSY. My friends are all working people.

I'm not hiring a highschool student who is a complete stranger, to look after my child who is precious to me. That is a stupid suggestion.

Now I'll confess: My personal situation was exaggerated, in order to play devil's advocate and speak for the families who are unable to speak, because they lack the resources and energy, because they are fighting for their survival and struggling to feed their kids.

I used to think very highly of teachers, but if I participate in this forum any longer, that opinion is in danger of slipping into oblivion.

Anybody who thinks that teachers are being selfish should read these pages - you may find your assessment is completely supported by many of these postings.

What an obnoxious bunch you are.

Bye. Go ahead and let it fly -- I won't be reading.

Bertrand Russell, the philosopher, once remarked:

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, while wiser people are so full of doubts."

For a perspective on the current government's assertion that the teachers of this province are "breaking the law" and "setting a poor example", take a peek at:

http://members.shaw.ca/caity/premier.html

Why do I get the feeling that sdgreen/s solution to the problem of special needs children is, gas the wee untermenschen beggars? (He tries to hide it, of course, but it keeps winking through. (He reminds me of that Peter Seller's movie, where the old Nazi atomic scientist, whenever he got excited, couldn't stop his hand and arm from giving the old fascist, "Seig Heil!" salute.)

Like with Werner no sdgreen, "...why are these kids in the class room. If a major effort is required to control a difficult or mentally challenged kid is at the point where such disrupts normal teaching, there is something very wrong with the system."

One hears the clicking of heels, and a barked, "Gas the untermenschen beggars! Chain them to walls in dark rooms!"

Leaner and meaner is his types eternal mantra, as applied to the working class, the poor, the physically and psychologically damaged.

"Dey ist clearly inferior. Unfit fur dem purity auf der Superior Aryan Race."

On the other hand, the Benevolent Business/Ruling Class need to be freed to corner all the economic wealth of society, and rule unimpeded by anything or anyone, especially trade unions, or other organizations of the untermenschen masses. (Chambers of Commerce and Business Councils however, being unions of the ruling class, are quite acceptable, of course.)

The ruling class responds to incentives. They must be moved forward with gentle and lucrative persuasion.

The masses, on the other hand, need more of the stick to make them "perform up to standard."

Where the sun doesn't shine, sdgreen.

I should clarify my last post before leaving ... redrivergirl accused me of being a "troll" because I said that I don't have any babysitting, and she also accused me of "lying" about the districts listed on Channel 9 news last Thursday night which are providing in-school supervision during the strike. (No wonder she hides behind an alias.)

But while I am not a liar, my presentation of my own circumstances was deliberately exaggerated, because my "situation" is in fact a composite, based on what I've heard from other hard working families with young children who are virtually panicking about what to do with their children, who have not a penny to scrape together for babysitting, who can't take time off work, and who I can't help myself, because I work.

The fact is, that I love my child very deeply, I am always careful about where he spends his time, I worry about him and what he will do while I'm at work, and I wish that Vancouver schools could provide supervision as other B.C. schools are doing -- so, this means that I'm a "whiner" and a "bottom feeder looking for free day care". That is both obnoxious, and innaccurate.

Teachers: I was trying to open up your eyes a little bit, so that you could really SEE the widespread consequences of your choice to leave the classroom. Try to see past the ends of your noses, as we are all connected. A bit of compassion for parents would be welcome and refreshing, but I'm not holding my breath.

Coyote -- I accept your apology, such as it was, and it's too bad that I can't join you for some "warm buns".

Finally: teachers, now is your big chance to behave REALLY REALLY badly, and then blame it all on the government, i.e. over the next few days, you will be able to slap your partners, engage in road rage, yell at your kids, and do all kinds of bad things that are normally out of character -- and then you can just say, "It's not my fault! Blame Gordon Campbell, he's the reason I'm so angry, so go and talk to him about it." I think that you should really take advantage and have fun with this.

Enjoy. And Happy Thanksgiving.

"Then I'm leaving, because I do have a have a life, and you people are highly frustrating."

Why because they disagree with you?

"My personal situation was exaggerated, in order to play devil's advocate and speak for the families who are unable to speak..."

"But while I am not a liar, my presentation of my own circumstances was deliberately exaggerated..."

In my books, that's trollish behavior.

"What an obnoxious bunch you are."

You have some gall, you come here with your "exaggerated" story, practically demand our sympathies, get mad when you don't get it, insult when your honesty or intentions are questioned, then stick your fingers in your and say, "Nah, nah, I can't hear you because I'm not going to read what you have to say anymore." And you call others
obnoxious?

Good riddance, "beeyatch".

Chella, do yourself and others a favour and look up the modern definition of Troll. Folks on this board are smarter than you give them credit for. All or most could sense you were trolling. But what good folks do is give another the benefit of the doubt. You madam are a self admitted liar. Therefore what ever you say should not be confused with reality. You claim to speak for the real pooor folks in the inner city, but do not know anyone in the community and do not wish to engage them for mutual assistance. Yes, you are afraid of getting dirty. I hope while your youngster is spending extra time with you does not become infected by the poison you preach. I wish your child good luck. He /She will need it being raised by a moron.

Chella,
Happy Thanksgiving to you as well. I've read your posts and hope you are able to find appropriate care for your son. I have tried to avoid the news of late, so can't comment on which districts are providing care, but I know ours isn't. (interior BC) Teachers appreciate your support and frankly I find the name-calling that's going on very sad. I wish you well.

spedteacher - GO GURL! As the mom of a special needs child, I found your answer enlightening and chilling. As a fellow teacher, I know the criteria for assistance has been raised by the Ministry of Ed. meaning that even fewer students are classified as special needs and are considered regular students who receive marginal amounts of learning assistance. British Columbia already has fewer students listed as special needs than most other provinces because our classification guidelines are so stringent. The current government pays less than most provincial governments to support students and families living with special needs. I guess the thinking is that "if you choose to have them, you pay for them." I guess this is what sdgreen is advocating as well.

sdgreen - If the government weren't already lining the pockets of its corporate friends with huge tax cuts, we'd have money to support the children of this province. I find it galling to think that corporations with huge profits seem to need tax cuts as well.

QUOTE]Teachers: I was trying to open up your eyes a little bit, so that you could really SEE the widespread consequences of your choice to leave the classroom. Try to see past the ends of your noses

sulks Chella.

Ah, Chella, if only teachers would behave, right? And know there place, right? ( Gordon Campbell couldn't have said it better himself). Your spite for teachers runs through so much of the above posting.

Protest if you must, teachers... but just not in ways that disturb your preciously little set-up life.

And your ever so humble pose as an advocate for hard-working families doesn't cut it either. A lot of those hard-working families and their children are supporting the teachers in this struggle for what is really at core a fight for human rights - the right for a child to have a textbook in a so-called surplus economy and the right for teachers to have a say over their workplace. The quality of our public school system, indeed the public school system itself is at stake here.

Teachers aren't behaving badly...you are.

Well I am back, took a peek at this between doing my chores and errands, and I cannot resist responding to Pete L. and verso.

I didn't say "Nya, nah I'm not listening", and I wasn't trying to be childish. I said I had to leave, because I have things to do, and thought it appropriate to say so. I speak for parents whom I do know, and who also work. Since we work, we can't engage one another for assistance on a daily basis. This is a real problem, but you are belittling that problem.

I don't wish to place my child where I do not know the parents well and have never visited their home. Why is that a problem for you? This is entirely reasonable behaviour on the part of a responsible parent.

What I "lied" about was this: while it is true that I cannot afford any babysitting, being very cash strapped, personally I do have the ability to borrow money from my family back east. But I do know for sure that there are many others who do not have such an option available to them. I was trying to place myself in their shoes (What if I couldn't borrow the money?), and then see if this situation elicited any sympathy from teachers. I see that it did from some, and that is heartening. But from others the vitriol is surely startling.

I was frustrated because so many of you do not seem to care AT ALL about what many parents are going through, no matter how hard I tried to help you to see our point of view, and not simply because you disagree with me.

Being careful about where my child goes for the day is not the same as being "afraid of getting dirty". I like where I live. For the record, my child is doing very well, he is a compassionate, sensitive child who empathizes with the other people around him. Quite unlike PeteL. His playmates run the gamut, I don't pick and choose them for him, as PeteL seemed to assume of me. And I am far from a moron.

SDGreen, please take all your like-minded pals and go knock yourselves out trying to evict students with special needs from BC's classrooms (while you're at it, steal all the candy from the babies, beat up your wives, mug Granny for her Bingo money, lock up some panhandlers for begging, find someone smaller than you & kick em in the shins and put a welfare mom out on the street.)

You are the schoolyard bullies. You're ignorant, sad, pathetic and you'll probably never change. We know you and we've learned how to deal with you, starting with our Charter of rights and freedoms, which prohibits discrimination based on disability or other such factors.

You probably won't get this, but for the benefit of others, it's not well understood that there is an important medical care component to special education. Many years ago, this component was delegated to our schools to deliver as part of the individual's "special" education program. We see vestiges of this in that some aspects of special education are still funded today by Ministry of Children and Families and Health Ministry dollars.

SDGreen's basic flawed assumption is that every child should have the same amount of money spent on his/her education -- i.e. that education is a single dose thing, like a vaccine, that you administer equally to all. This view not only fundamentally misunderstands the nature of education, but it assumes that all kids, apart from those formally labelled "special needs", conform to some mythical typical mould. This is of course nonsense, as I'm sure any junior teacher could tell SDGreen.

We don't complain when someone else's child, suffering from a chronic or congenital illness, costs the health care system thousands more than our own kids who are as healthy as horses. Most of us don't even begrudge it when people cost the health system more through their own folly and unhealthy lifestyles.

We don't complain when the police have to put more resources into protecting another neighbourhood from a crime wave and demand equal time even if we don't have equal need.

We don't complain that someone received an unfair share of the fire service budget when their house burned down.

No, because most of us are not like the SDGreens of this world -- the "ME! ME! ME! IT's ALL ABOUT ME" Bully boy club, with their motto of "Let's #@%! everyone else, ESPECIALLY the weak, poor and downtrodden!

Now that I've read your responses, I am quite sure you are a BC Liberal troll.

I recognize the extraordinary sophomoric reasoning.

And, I recognize the attempt to define the discussion to obscure the issues.

"I recognize the extraordinary sophomoric reasoning." observed redrivergirl.

It does come through quite clearly, doesn't it? This "lady" knows as much about the plight of poor women, as I do the far side of the moon.

redrivergirl: why don't you ask Jenny Kwan if I'm a liberal? She knows me because of some of my volunteer work in the community, and so does her assistant Stuart. Just because I am intelligent and well-reasoned doesn't mean that I'm a B.C. Liberal. Just because I ask teachers for some sympathy for parents, doesn't mean that I don't support their strike. I still don't know what "troll" means and frankly I don't care.

Sympathy is normally a two way street by the way, or didn't you know that?

The BCTF is not some collective of altruistic professionals fighting for our helpless children, they are simply public sector employees trying to squeeze money out of the taxpayer under the guise of fighting for our children and it's sleazy and transparent.

If teachers are unsatisfied with their working conditions, I would invite them to seek employment elsewhere like any other "professional" would do. Teachers should have zero say via the BCTF in setting public policy, that is what voting is for. Now i'm sure this will upset all the union blowhards that seem to populate the Tyee for some reason, but this is reality and even the glorious, ever benevolent, teachers must get down off their high horses and deal with it.

Intelligent, well-reasoned?? Hardly, chella. Your flawed premise - that somehow teachers should bail you out of a child-care dilemna - marks you as somebody failing to see the forest for the trees, as it were. The big issue: whether the BCTF should or should not have the right to bargain for a fair collective agreement, negotiate reasonable working conditions, and by doing so make things better for our childrens' education. Your (possibly fictional) petty concerns over how to look after YOUR OWN CHILD while this job action is ongoing pale in comparisn. I have four children in school. My wife and I will adjust. We plan on home-schooling for the duration. We realize the seriousness of a defeat in this battle. It will impact every worker in this province, and destroy the rights of all people.
As a logger, I know only too well what it's like to be handed a 12% pay cut in an imposed agreement (laughably oxymoronic). Worse, more dangerous working conditions. Longer hours with little or no overtime. A race to the bottom thanks to the union-busting agenda of this government. Their concern for the welfare of our children is false. Their wrongheaded legislation deeming teaching an essential service, and attempting to force teachers back to work will backfire.

Gordon Campbell: "..teachers are setting a bad example for their students.

"It's totally wrong in fact it's a very bad example to break the law because you don't feel that you like it.." ( http://www.cknw.com/news/news_local.cfm?cat=74281417912&rem=20451&red=801141723aPBIny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=news_local.cfm )

What a joke. This from a man who chose to drive drunk.

By definition, a government has no conscience, sometimes it has a policy, but nothing more.
--Albert Camus

Chella,

"Just because I ask teachers for some sympathy for parents, doesn't mean that I don't support their strike."

I think most teachers are sympathetic to the parents plight in this, because so many teachers are parents themselves.

What do you do with your son when school is out for summer, for pro-D days, for Christmas break, spring break, or when he is sick? I realize this strike is a hardship for parents, and that wildcat strikes are sudden and difficult to plan for, but so are, god forbid, earthquakes and any numerous amount of unforeseen events that can shut a school down.

No one is saying it's easy, or even that it's fair, it's just one of the realities of raising children.

For the record I am not a teacher, but do support their action.

While the need for childcare is an entirely legitimate issue that must be addressed on the broader scale, efforts to paint ONE or TWO day of closed schools as some sort of crisis are not going to hold water.

As parents,

* we figure out ways to take care of our kids from age 0 to 6;
* we figure out how to take care of them for Christmas, Spring Break and Summer holidays;
* we figure out how to take care of them before 9 am and from 3 pm until we finish work;
* we figure out solutions when we work nights and weekends;
* we figure out ways to take care of them when they're too sick to go to school;
* we figure it out when we have snow days;
* we figured it out when government cuts forced districts into 4-day school weeks

Viewed in this context, the added hassle of finding emergency daycare for a couple days while teachers pressure government to address issues crucial to our children's education has been blown way out of proportion by the media, some parents and of course the BC Liberals, who use it as an excuse to avoid facing the real issues at stake.

Inconvenient? Certainly. Crisis? Hardly!

Chela, if you truly are stuck for childcare, the TV news and papers have been listing the various emergency alternatives that are available at community centres, via school administrators etc. If you have to pay out of pocket for childcare, keep your receipts and claim them as a deduction on your income tax return. And if you're still not satisfied, join the many British Columbians who are volunteering their time and energy to advocate for government-funded quality child care for parents like yourself.

Coyote: what's with referring to me as a "lady" -- do the quotes mean that you question my honour, or my gender? It's hard, I know, when you can't just peg somebody into one of your usual holes, I guess. It's frustrating when somebody escapes definition. But why would you question my gender -- do I appear to be too smart to be a real girl?

Name, I am anticipating a very long strike, not just a "couple of days". Both sides seem to be locking down. Long term solutions will be necessary, and expensive. I envy the families in those districts where in-school supervision will be provided for parents, so I have taken the opportunity to express myself.

tommymore: my "flawed premise" is this: some B.C. districts provide for working families and vulnerable children during this strike, while some (including Vancouver) do not, and this does not seem fair to me.

So here's my fantasy: the B.C.T.F. says, "We aren't backing down. We are in this for the long haul. Now, we would like to help out the parents during a lengthy strike? Let's try and come up with some solutions, especially for those who will be in dire straights over the long run. We are the experts when it comes to children, so we are the appropriate party to help to take the sting out of this long strike for families.

I know, fat chance, huh?

Let's see the list of the districts providing child care, Chella.

I'm sure you might be providing support for a parent in that district who might be reading this and not be aware of this.

Ah, I see now you are not a BC LIberal Neo-Con. For, you advocate an expanded role for unions. Not only should they stand up for their members and for social justice, they should also provide direct, specialized care for your child. I see you are all for an expanded role for unions within our society. Right on!

And, I see you have the utmost respect for teachers as well. I so agree with you, only qualified, trustworthy people should be looking after your child. So, I see how wrong I've been about you. And, here I was thinking you were a BC Liberal supporter. You do value teachers. How could I have been so misled?

Show us the list, Chell.

no comma after For and, it's extraordinarily, resource etc. Ad infinitum...

I forgot to answer verso's question. I just started my job in September, so my situation is new. (I used to be a stay-at-home Mom but ran out of money). On the first Pro-D day, I left my son at home all by himself. He's a mature 10 and a half, and he had strict instructions not to play outside, have anybody in, or answer the door, and to tell telephone callers that I was in the shower. Okay? I broke the law, and he hated it too. This is probably okay to do once in a while, because I have a very good boy. But over the long run ... ? So last Friday, I brought him into work with me. He was bored and towards the end of the day he got restless and challenging. Friday was a quiet day, next week is an entirely different story & I won't be able to do that. A friend who lives at the other end of the city (she also has no car) has offered to introduce me to a friend of hers in my neighbourhood -- she also works but only part time. We might be able to help each other, I don't know yet. If this is a long strike, I will have to go into debt to pay for babysitting, once I find a babysitter that is.

Why is it again that the B.C.T.F. can't help out with the effects of a long strike on families? I forget. Please remind me.

I'm looking forward to when this period of history has past and people will be reading about it in their history texts. Assuming Neo-Conservative policies don't kill us all first.

There is so much we could be doing and that we need to be doing. There is so much positive energy required to fix the problems we as humanity face and I know there is so much of it available.

I remember, not long ago, our public discourse being very different. People worked together and had a sense of community.

Our mental energies could go towards creative endeavors and we had a sense of a better future and of hope.

One day we will have those experiences again. This dark time in our history will one day pass. This too shall pass as they say.

It feels so much better to give to others than it does to take and to take away from others. I don't want anyone working for me to feel valueless and unworthy and enslaved. I don't want people who think that is appropriate be in positions making decisions that impact our country.

Fascism has a very ugly countenance. But, it too, shall pass.

You evidently have computer access, redrivergirl. So get the list yourself, from BC-CTV channel 9, who ran the list on Thursday night's news. I don't have the time to do your research for you, sorry. I'm busy today,I've a household to run. I'm sure you won't mind sharing the list once you have it, as I'm sure you are an honest person.

I can sum up this dialog as follows:

me: I don't know what I'm going to do, can the teachers help out with some ideas or solutions?

teachers: why the hell should we? If we do anything to help you, that means we are just babysitters. How dare you ask!

Thanks a lot.

Wars and rumours of wars" toparaphrase.
An imaginative BCTF might alter cours, accept the court ruling, and look to other methods that inconvenience the government.
Such as? Inconvenience MLA's at their home offices and at their Victoria offices with queries. Inconvenience MLA's movements by ipportuning them at airports, ferries, etc. Institute recalls in every weak riding in the province. Challenge every MLA's expenses on a weekly, if not daily, basis. Publish backgrounders on every MLA vote withcomment and question. Enlarge local BCTF executives to include Committee of the Whole at every meeting. Refuse access to any information not specifically required by existing law. Increase homework loads for weak scholars

Gordon Campbell says:

"It's totally wrong in fact it's a very bad example to break the law because you don't feel that you like it.." ( http://www.cknw.com/news/news_local...=news_local.cfm )

(thanks for the link tommymoore)

Talk about breaking the law... this premier and his BC Liberal government completely disregarded the ruling of the BC Supreme Court that found fundamental flaws in the contract stripping of teachers' collective agreements by arbitrator Eric Rice - under then Labour Minister Graham Bruce.

Rice zealously stripped these provisions, many of which protected learning conditons for children.

The teachers appealed and won the decision. The government's reaction to the Supreme Court decision? They paid no heed to it and with an arrogance they are famous for brought in Bill 19... which made into law the very things the teachers won on appeal.

Bill 19 makes certain there can be no contractual guarantees of class-size limits, services to students with special needs, or support from specialist teachers in BC schools.

So it is clearly evident who has little respect for the law... or for the learning conditions of children...in fact the present government's exact stance is that Bill 19 applies "despite any decision of a court to the contrary".

sdgreen: Your comment on special needs children is hardly worth responding to. I'm pretty sure nothing will change your mind since compassion is a foreign currency to one measures all things in terms of monetary value.

Good point, lynn. This government is in no position to be lecturing anyone on setting examples.

Man oh man, it's amazing how much can happen on here when I don't check it for a while lolol. There were so many things to respond to I had to take notes!! lol Everyone needs to calm down. I got very angry reading some of the posts too but namecalling and insulting one another only brings us down to the level exemplified by the Liberal government. I, for one, do not want to lower myself to that level. That being said, here I go ...

nemesis: Yes, I am a member of a BCTF Executive but I am the Vice President of my sublocal union. I don't have a heck of a lot of influence over Jinny Sims or anyone else. I just take the time to read ALL that I can find about our current job situation .. be it good or bad. I think that makes me fairly knowledgeable about the subject considering I, along with many other teachers, have known it was headed in this direction since the last time we had a contract imposed on us. Ohhh and any work that I do for my local Exec. is completely voluntary and unpaid.

I think it was you that quoted the 3 mths. in job action comment. From what I can gather, that comment was taken completely out of context. Job action doesn't always mean going out on strike, you know. Before the govt. had imposed legislation this time, we were undergoing day 2 (I think it was) of work-to-rule. We could have done 3 mths. of work-to-rule and the children wouldn't have been affected at all. Unless, of course, teachers chose not to volunteer their time to participate in extra-curricular activities.

sdgreen: (you even warrant two posts from me lol)

Thank you to the mom of the special needs child who supported my points directed at you. And to the others who did the same. They know the facts. Here are some facts for you, sdgreen.

- a mildly mentally handicapped child receives $6000 in funding. Don't tell me I'm wrong because I spent many hours in my Principal's office trying to figure out how to spread out the thin resources we have. That $6000 is used to pay for special education teacher and teacher assistant time for the year. It works out to approximately 10/wk TA time. That leaves that poor child stranded in the classroom and/or resources already stretched thin are stretched even further.

- when there are appropriate resources and funds available AND smaller class sizes to allow teachers time to give individual attention to ALL students, the entire situation that you described often does not exist. That makes all of your points null and void.

- did you know: that the government provides more funding for a child designated as Chronic Health than they do for mentally handicapped children? That a child suffering from Fetal Alcohol Syndrome only receives funding IF the school is able to present a very good case for the need for support? That many children diagnosed with FAS can have almost as much difficulty as a child diagnosed with autism?? Do you have any idea how many children suffering from FAS (which is completely preventable) there are in our schools??????? Did you know that although there is a lot of paperwork involved in designating a child as moderate/severe behaviour disordered, yet there isn't always funding that comes with that label?? Do you have ANY idea how much work is involved on behalf of the parents and school in order to obtain the funding for any child even if they are diagnosed with autism??????

The problem with socialists is that they just follow the yellow brick road and do not look at the big picture.

Socialists just say "increase taxes" so that we can feed the juggernaut of their cause. Given this it will not be long when all of our earned money goes to social programs and nothing else. Socialism simply does not work.

If something does not work, then let us throw more money at the issue, that will certainly fix the problem.

Teachers via the BCTF want to control every aspect of the educational process. Be damned about government, be damned about the public, we in the BCTF will do as we please.

What ignorance. Teachers are public servants established to impart information to the young. As part of the process, this allows adults to carry out their work tasks in support of our society. This means that Teachers are nothing more than a tool of society to take care of our children and to be surrogate educators on behalf of parents.
NOthing more and nothing less. It is at the pleasure of the public what teachers teach, what they are paid, and when.

The mere fact that teachers are required to belong to a union is bad enough as the BCTF is a rogue organization. The BCTF actively promotes socialist activities, it actively takes political action to achieve 'their' aims, it contradicts the need for non-partisan activities than must be the prime directive for students. The BCTF clearly has polluted the minds of teachers with unionistic propaganda.

Conditions in schools are indeed quite satisfactory, and indeed the public funds provided are more than enough to accomplish the teaching task. But the BCTF worryworts continue the demand for them to be inclusive. Well that is not on! The BCTF does not or should not have the right to inconvenience the public, the teachers or the students.

Public Service unionism has reached a point where society must take action to stem the tide of blackmail against the taxpayer!

Chella, amplifies the stupidity of the teachers and the BCTF, where she as a single mother is severely inconvenienced, and she ought not to be!

Chella's just a rightwing troll who is trying to hijack the discussion. She's posted in other discussions trying to pick fights about religion and abortion. She's not entitled to babysitting service from teachers.

Chella, I felt very sorry for you in the beginning. I even tried to offer suggestions in a calm and polite manner. I can even understand why your posts are getting rude and nasty. We all get angry when we feel we have been wronged. Ask any teacher. They know all about it.

You suggested that teachers open their eyes and look at the big picture. Well, I suggest you do the same. Yes, it is inconvenient and possibly costly to provide childcare for your child while this strike lasts. Yes, it could be longer than first expected. After all, I understand the MLAs get next week off. You can see by that how important they think the situation in BC schools is. But would you rather be inconvenienced for a week or two or do you want your son in a class of 35 or more? If your son is gifted or was special needs, wouldn't you want appropriate programs and supports in place for him? Can you and your friends afford private school tuition? I sure hope so because if the Liberals can work so hard to privitize our health care system, you can bet they plan on doing it to education.

The teachers of this province are facing public ridicule, abuse from government officials, the threats of fines and arrest, and possible financial hardship for our own families. My strike fund was seriously depleted after a very large and unexpected car repair bill the day before the strike started. Talk about bad timing!! I am a single parent and I don't get child support. You can bet I'm worried about my own financial situation. But I'm willing to risk all of that in defense of public education ... for all the students in BC schools, my own in particular as well as for the education of my own son. THAT is the big picture. Yes, your concerns are all legitimate but surely you must have seen this coming and could have prepared yourself ahead of time? Please don't insult me and other teachers when you have admitted that you have lied to us all.

"This government is in no position to be lecturing anyone on setting examples."

Especially ... (hic) Wha's 'is name? (hic) Gordo.

Chella? Sirjohna, is tha' you? :-\ Hic! Nooooo!

As you can't be all things to all people, dahling, neither can teachers and their union be. Suck it up.

They've got their hands full with this government and The Law. Genuflect. Genuflect.

The God of Capitalism says, "The Lord helps those what help themselves."

And that's about the last time you'll hear me agree with either that dude or capitalism.

A firey horse, a gallant steed, with his faithful sidekick Tonto, a hearty, "High O, Silver! Away!"

(Eh, it's been fuking marvellous. Though I can cuss more freely and creatively, Tyee still has the potential to be way better a left wing site than those lefty US sites I've been writing on whilst away. Google, Canuck Coot. :-)

I hear a bottle of scotch calling my name, and I've got supper to cook. (An East Indian spiced chicken soup. One of my favourite.) The two, scotch and cooking, go incredibly well together.

SpedTeacher;

Your recent note just amplifies and supports my proposition that the system needs serious review relative to the special needs kids.

Given my recent interest in this subject, and research both at the BCTF and Minof Ed web sites, there is absolutely no doubt that both administration and teaching the Special Needs kids is complex. No doubt you do a level best at this function. But even you indicate that such is onerous!

My point is clearly that the required resources to do this function are perhaps too enormous and maybe we ought to look at the whole system. As I stated previously, likely a good number of SNKids do quite well and fit in the classroom. But there appears to be a percentage that do not, but currently are in the classroom environment. If those kids are difficult to manage, then the logical question is 'should they be there'?

Should these disruptive kids be put into a separate location Where 'dedicated' attention be given. Whether that is within the school as a special class or in a separate school is a matter of question. Bottomline is that I cannot see the logic in having these very difficult kids (percentage of the SNKids, don't know)mixed in with those that do not cause a problem?

We just cannot keep throwing money at the problem, but rather need to rationalize the resources.

As I stated before, there is a bandwidth here where some perhaps should not be in the classroom, but somewhere else.

And gordo, first, I won't get hammered, and I certainly won't break the law by driving over the limit. The old lady'd make sure of that anyway. She's small but mighty.

Besides, I set a better example than that.

Like in the care of Dr. Mengele, right?

lolol how about this one?

Breaking the law .. Gordo can do it, why can't I???

sdgreen: I'm sorry that you won't listen or even budge on your opinion. I won't either, I'm afraid. I visited Woodlands when I was in university (yeahhh I'm getting old lolol) and I saw for myself the conditions there .. children laying in dirty diapers, dirty, not stimulated, no learning going on that I could see. Sorry, but I will NEVER agree to set my students up for a situation like that. The parents of special needs students can be very vocal and effective in lobbying the government. The supports now provided to children diagnosed with autism are an example of that. These parents would never stand for it and they vote and pay taxes too.

I am doing the happy dance because I am so very proud to see that 74% of those responding to an internet poll in the Prince George Citizen support what teachers are doing in defense of public education. I know these polls aren't scientific but it sure is good to see!! I am so very proud to be a member of a community North of Hope!!!!!!!!

te aro arahina: What on earth are you talking about? I have never before in my life posted anything here, or in any other discussion forum for that matter. I guess there must be more than one Chella. I am a discussion forum virgin, no word of a lie. But I do have my own blog (http://chella.myblogsite.com), wherein I post various provocative and controversial articles in order to promote discussion. Are you confusing this with that? Maybe.

I am not trying to pick a fight. Just trying to get answers, but obviously none will be forthcoming from such a radical bunch as you all.

I never did get an answer as to why the B.C.T.F. and/or the V.S.B. outright refuse to do anything to assist parents during a lengthy strike, and I guess I never will. You all just keep on dumping the question right back on to me. This is non-responsive.

Whenever you are asked a question, your response is to simply repeat your position. This is what politicians do -- always avoid answering a direct question. In particular, none of you ever answered my question about what the most vulnerable children will do, the ones who receive very little supervision at home, the ones who really count on school as a place to go and be cared for because they have nothing else. Everybody chose to ignore that, except to say: "We are not babysitters." Again, this is completely non-responsive, not an answer at all.

One of my son's friends tells me that his teacher announced to her class that she does not support this job action and personally, she does not want to strike, but she has been given no choice. I'll bet there are plenty of other teachers in that position, too. It's too bad that choice has been removed from individual teachers in this way.

Gordo and the 'golden rule' he has the gold and he makes the rules. Schools are not daycare, yet I have a strong feeling, Gordo & Co. feel they are. The neocon philosophy is simple: the public school system is for losers and private schools are for winners. Teachers, who teach losers are themselves deemed losers and don't deserve their wages.

This strike is nothing more than Gordo & Co. decalring was on teachers, students, schools, the poor, just about everybody in BC except Vancouver's West side types, (yeah I know) the the creme de la creme get the huge tax breaks.

Funny that RAV is now 3 fastferry fiasco's over budjet or there is billions of dollars to be spent on bridges and highways, with the profits going to his buddies, but when it comes to the future of BC's population, he doesn't give a damn.

Gordo should be tried for treason!

Chella,

I'm not sure that it is the job of teachers to either find a solution to your problem. Teachers also have children and many of them are "scrambling" to find an adult to watch them and keep them safe. I wish that you would take up this fight with your MLA and tell him or her to quickly put pressure on this government to find a solution so that we can get back to work and you can have peace of mind that your child is in the safety of our public school system.

For clarity's sake, my comment somewhere above should read:

They paid no heed to it and with an arrogance they are famous for brought in Bill 19... which made into law (despite the Supreme Court decision) the removal of services to children...in effect allowing for the stripping of important provisions from teachers' collective agreements that protected the learning conditions of children.

sdgreen: I would respond but then the thanksgiving turkey would burn and frankly, you're not worth it.

Well, blog folks, this site has been high jacked by Chella. Pleased to have sidetracked the issues, I've no doubt.

I am totally curious as to who is looking after the mythical son while she blogs on and on and on, hour after hour.

Let's move on . . . maybe it's time to reread the article. What was it? no, it wasn't about chella.

let's let her troll (ha ha) for hits to her blog site somewhere else.

Does anyone know the outcome of the court proceedings today?

BC Supreme Court finds BC Teacher's Federation in Contempt of Court for going on Strike

For immediate streaming audio, click LISTEN TO CKNW LIVE
http://ims-go.com/go.asp?URL=4170&MID=62083&UID=9790280

chella,

I too am new to this forum, and wouldn't enter the fray, but really, do you know what you are talking about? I am a teacher, and believe me, I work with the very disadvantaged children you are speaking about, but you know what? I am fully in favour of this action because I have seen in my classroom and those around me what has happened over the past 4 years while the Liberals have had their way with education, and it is NOT a pretty picture. The parents that I have talked to are not happy, but they totally understand what we are doing and why - it is for THEIR children's education that we are doing this. Why else would anyone go through this? I am not a politician and don't ever see myself going there as I would never be able to turn off my humanity as so many of them seem to be able to do in favour of looking "correct". Here is what I am taking action against - libraries closed in schools, keeping children from having access to a teacher/librarian who can show them properly how to research a topic; cuts to special education teachers, which results in my spending more and more time trying to help children who are behind - last year out of the class of 28 that I taught, fully half of them were NOT working at grade level. Yes, I had support, but it was not enough to help everyone and some just got left out. I am also worried about my ESL students, who are getting way too little time with a specialist teacher and are trying to pick up English in the classroom - how exactly am I supposed to meet the needs of all of these children? I tell you, I cannot, and last year, I was so stressed out most of the year, not because I don't like my students, but because I do, and I want what is best for them, and I can't give them what they need - people go on and on on this site and everywhere else about politics, childcare and whatever else you want to name, but the bottom line is that teachers are out on the streets picketing and not in the classrooms where they love to be with the people they want to be with because some idiots in Victoria are doing I don't really know what. Teachers that I speak with are fully behind this action. I'm sure there are a few who aren't, but guess what? There WAS a vote and if they didn't get out and vote against this action, then they can't really complain. I for one, am glad to be taking a stand for public education and that IS what MY stand is for. I care about the future of those students - not just tomorrow, but their future, and believe me, if we don't do something about this situation, there won't be a future for public education and we really WILL be just a daycare service!!!!!

Because that is not their job!!!
Their job is to provide education not child care.
Stop asking, it's getting boring.

(sigh) I support the strike. I am just looking for long term solutions for families and parents, who will be scrambling, I was trying to encourage teachers to work with parents to find these long term solutions for the children, for what I anticipate might be a very long strike.

But, in asking for some assistance and sympathy, I am said to be "hijacking the discussion". Neat.

Louise: My son is right here beside me in the living room. I have poked my head into this forum every few hours, just for a few minutes. I type rather quickly so it only takes a sec. I don't "blog on for hours and hours", what's that all about? I haven't devoted my entire day to this, believe it or not. Maybe I am just highly efficient.

And my blog gets many hits already, thanks. I was just trying to understand where this guy who accuses me of picking fights about abortion was coming from. That was weird.

No, of course this isn't all about me. But so many people began their postings with "Chella, ...", I guess because they felt strongly that they had to set me straight ... is that my fault? Is it my fault that I made so many excellent points that people got all excited and chose to respond specifically to me?

Anyway, definitely don't bother reading my blog Louise -- it isn't for you anyway. It's for reasonable and thoughtful people to enjoy.

"I never did get an answer as to why the B.C.T.F. a /or the V.S.B. outright refuse to do anything to assist parents during a lengthy strike, and I guess I never will."

People have told you over and over that teachers are not the ones you should be directing your question to regarding your childcare issues. You have made a conscious choice not to listen.

From your blog:
"You deliberately chose to be on the front lines in caring for our most vulnerable citizens"

And in turn you chose to be a parent. You are at the front line every day save the hours they are in school. Parents run into unforeseen childcare emergencies, it's part of being a parent. Parents deal with these emergencies the best they can.

More from your blog:
"I have a great permanent part-time job with an understanding and supportive boss"

Some of these parents work full time and they try and adapt, you know why? Because that's what happens in life - things happen that we can't control and we have to deal with them. If you have an understanding and supportive boss maybe you should try and work out a different schedule until this boils over. Some parents who work more hours than you have to deal with longer hours and bosses that aren't supportive.

Teachers and schools step in where parents don't fulfill their duties to their children all the time.

We feed the children who come to school without breakfast and/or lunch.

We supply school supplies to those children whose parents can't afford them.

We pay for children who are unable to pay for field trips.

We not only teach but care for and deeply for your children.

We spend our own money to buy supplies for our classroom and to make it look inviting for our students.

We are directed by the School Act to act as "responsible parents" and we do at all times when at school and working.

We counsel children .. spend time with them on our own time coaching or helping with homework (and you would be amazed at how often I've heard "my Mom and Dad went to Wing Night last night. That's why I didn't get my homework done because there was no one to help me."

When the government attacks our public education system, we fight back. Yes, it took a very long time for us to fight back but we are doing it now. Obviously, there are some parents who can't look past their own problems to see the big picture.

Sorry, but it's not the responsibility of the BCTF or individual teachers to provide childcare for anyone on our own time other than our own children. Anyone who paid attention to the news knew this was coming. They had every opportunity to be prepared and the vote was conducted so quickly in order to provide parents with that prep time. You are blaming the wrong people for your problem (if it truly exists), Chella. If you want to lay the blame on anyone, blame the government. The only reason why we are out on strike is their refusal to NEGOTIATE a contract.

FYI: The Prince George school district is NOT providing supervision of children during the strike and the last time I checked a poll in the paper, 74% of people were in support of the teachers.

CHELLA: Why aren't the teachers in the schools giving out supervision? Because they're outside picketing, that's why. You obviously don't know much about job action but you should be able to figure that out. The school boards, well, chances are they don't have the manpower to watch the kids. Then as has been already pointed out the support staff is not crossing so no cleaning, heat or light services, or whatever else. If other school districts are providing it then find who and how email and/or phone the info to your paticular board and politicians. I'm not sure why you keep insisting that teachers and others on this forum explain it or do it for you we have our own families to care for in the same situation, but it does make you sound trollish. Many have made suggestions already but here's one more find 5 mums who are scrambling each of you take the kids one day each misses 1 instead of 5 days of work. At 10 yrs old your son is surely able to deal with it.

SDGREEN:To fund our provinces necessities without raises taxes is really quite simple stop giving billion dollar tax breaks to corporations. Ask Chella if she has any of her's(2001's 25%) left. Probably not since she has to borrow for daycare.

SDGreen, you're not worth the time or effort... Clearly you're one of those who knows everything there is to know about an issue, even before your first ever visit to a couple websites for basic research. As suggested before, knock yourself out trying to get kids with special needs out of the classroom. If anyone is foolish enough to actually take you seriously, we'll see you in court.

Chella -- the strike has so far lasted all of ONE day. As of Tuesday, it will have lasted all of TWO days.

You keep going on and on about why no one is doing anything to help you with childcare for this "lengthy" strike. But two days is by no means a lengthy strike and you have no evidence yet that it will be a lengthy strike. You're making all this fuss about people failing to respond to something that hasn't even happened yet and that may indeed never happen.

I, like many other parents, have childcare issues too. My principal has put me in touch with three reputable kids from the local high school who can help out at short notice if necessary. Vancouver DPAC is helping parents connect with childcare as well. They're in touch with VSB officials and I'm fully confident that the VSB will try to make arrangements for those who face hardship if this strike goes more than a couple days. I'm also sure that there will be assistance to cover the costs if its a hardship issues, just as the VSB covers fieldtrip fees, hot lunch costs and all the other costs for anyone who claims hardship.

I can see you're enjoying the arguing -- but do please try to find something more useful and productive to argue about, such as... what can you do to support all those people who have been volunteering their time and energy to advocate for publicly funded childcare for low income working moms and dads like yourself.

I am really quite amazed at the distraction that Chilla provided.

In decision-making, even in politics (where as we have witnessed, distractions are always an issue).

First, the teacher's once they decide to make a political move for wages and conditions are not responsible for daycare for anyone's child. In fact, the teacher's are never responsible for daycare. This is a distraction.

If the argument is that the teacher's are professionals and should conduct themselves a certain way, I would suggest that if teacher's fundamentally believe that there are things seriously wrong with the system, should take whatever action is necessary. This is a sign of professionalism.

To be a professional you need to have standards in the environment to operate. If you are a lawyer and you were aware there was corruption involving Judges or cover-ups, or BC Rail type things, than if you are a professional you will stand up and say this isn't right. This would be unprofessional.

I have witnessed some unprofessionalism in the teaching ranks over the past few years. This includes a some unhappy disgruntled teachers who because they are not satisfied with conditions have taken this out on students, or not put their best efforts forward while continuing to receive their pay. This is a soft work to rule, and in my opinion unprofessional.

To suggest that if teachers are unhappy they should quit is in my opinion a real cheap point of view. It is loaded with ego and not value. If the teachers are unhappy they should do what they are doing so that we solve the issue once and for all.

Once it is solved once and for all, I would expect that teacher's as professionals give 100%. If they aren't willing to do that after we have solved this once and for all, than I would be the first to suggest they seek other employment.

As someone who has dealt with many professionals in different industries, I can tell you that once you have invested a number of years in post secondary education, it is very unlikely that you would approach your job with indifference.

Perhaps a teacher after twenty years or so might become complacent, but in my view, if you don't love teaching you would find out quite soon after you started. Also, the financial incentive is not so remarkable that anyone would stick around simply for summer holidays.

We live in a world where you don't get something for nothing. As a businessman I have taken huge risks with great success and equal failure. Even with success comes sacrifice (I had a suit on for nearly a decade-seven days a week) and rarely saw my children.

Other regular jobs might be boring even if the pay is high. I don't think any job that regular and small business people perform is easy.

Teaching isn't easy. To do an excellent job it should be tough but satisfying. But conditions for our kids should make sense, and the person teaching our kids who I expect to be excellent should be paid, not treated with any less excellence than we expect from them.

All of the cheap rhetoric and distractions that surround political debate are not of any value. We have good public schools we should demand excellent public schools. I want the best learning conditions for my children with the best school teachers.

Anything less is not satisfactory.

just a quick suggestion to all those who are concerned about kids who are at risk - now is your opportunity to really make a difference. Call you local school board or community centre and volunteer to help out one or two kids who's parents really can't afford to stay home from work. It would be a great thing to do and make you feel like you were really contributing to something, rather than just sitting back and watching everyone else participate. Give it some thought.

When destroying our social democracy, when insidiously re-creating classism, the ruling class has many weapons in their war chest. Some of their most potent weapons are as follows: sneakily replacing progressive tax structures with flat taxes, offering you cheap goods via (out of sight-out of mind) slave labour in order to make you feel rich, allow you to have gambling opportunities so that you may dream of a better future, and last but not least, create infighting amongst us- the stressed and overburdened working class!

When a working parent directs her frustration at her child’s teacher, when a working parent demonizes her child’s teacher’s union (a union that protects her teacher’s professional practice, and the quality of her child’s education), then that parent has gone from being the biggest potential alley of public education, to having become the biggest potential nemesis of public education. Nothing makes the ruling class rub their hands more with glee than the cannibalistic tendencies of the people they lord over.

Organize! Direct and focus your emotional energies towards the real problem and this whole mess will solve itself very fast!

VANCOUVER RALLY
-to support our teachers

5:30pm
AT BC Liberal Cabinet Offices
Vancouver Convention and Exhibition Centre
999 Canada Place
Vancouver

I have now found a babysitter at $20 a day. Blonde Pitbull -- you are by far the most reasonable-sounding person here. I will be deducting my expenses from my contribution to the hot lunch program, which I would normally pay to the VSB.

I tried and tried to search BC-CTV's website for the info on which districts are providing supervision, but I can't get any search results, probably because the site is busy. Thank you all for your helpful suggestions (I really mean that) and thanks for hearing me. Happy Thanksgiving (I really mean that too) and good luck to teachers. I do believe in what you are doing, but I also deeply feel for the many parents out there who don't have it as good as I do.

http://www.mugshots.com/Hall%20of%20Shame/Gordon+Campbell.htm

For the record, when engaging in discourse, to merely state and re-state your position is unhelpful.

When I ask WHY the VSB/BCTF should not be sympathetic and more helpful to parents, the response has been consistently "We don't do child care". This is simply a re-statement of your conclusion. Re-stating your conclusion is not responsive to the question or issue.

Also, if this strike drags on (do you honestly believe that the government will suddenly cave within the next week or two?), belittling and minimizing the concerns of parents, such as dismissing our needs as "mere distraction", "cheap rhetoric" and "of no value", will not win you any friends, and in fact this attitude may even erode your support. Just a heads-up, folks.

Soapbox Citizen what day is the rally?

Oops. Thanks!

VANCOUVER RALLY[U]
-to support our teachers

Tuesday
5:30pm
AT BC Liberal Cabinet Offices
Vancouver Convention and Exhibition Centre
999 Canada Place
Vancouver

Robbins, thank you very much for your thoughtful, intelligent, and insightful post. And I would believe that if I wasn't a teacher because I'm a parent with a child in our public schools too.

Welllllllllllll, so now they say we are in contempt of court. We knew this was coming. The possibility was even listed as part of the job action we voted for .. was it only last week??? I listened to the CKNW broadcast that was posted here. Thank you very much to the person that posted the link. The woman who questioned the speed in which the BCTF ad was placed in the newspapers offended me a tad. I can answer her question with another question. Don't you think it was rather suspicious that the government placed their ad the day immediately after the Act was introduced?????? Gee, do you think they planned on forcing the legislation down our throats from the very beginning??? Does it not bother anyone that the $150k spent on that ad was taxpayers' money that, if spent in schools could have paid for a teacher plus a whole lot of teacher assistant time or a smaller class or .... ?? The BCTF has a rather large fund to deal with job action. That should be no surprise since there has been a need for something to be done in defense of public education for some time now. But the BCTF ad was paid by union dues .. not tax dollars.

Let them come and arrest us. I dare them. How would it look to British Columbians and the entire world (and you can bet there are organizations all over the world paying attention to this dispute) if the Fiberals threw a bunch of teachers in jail (mostly women). I, along with my fellow teachers, have had enough. If we don't fight for our students, then who will?? I've said it before and I will say it again, "Breaking the law .. if it's good enough for Gordo, it's good enough for me!!!!"

Can you all spell G-E-N-E-R-A-L S-T-R-I-K-E?????

Yes, that's what we've been trying to tell you. Glad to hear you're finally moving on.

Well now the BCTF is in a pickle, a very big pickle.

The teachers have lost, the vocla minority in the teacher world are about to cross into a decision that will either break the public service unions or otherwise obliterate any sense of logic.

Go on a general strike and see how far that gets you. Jail time? Monatary penalty.

The discussions have been interesting and indeed worthwhile and only outline that a major change is required in the public service bargaining regime. Unions are outlaws, the BCTF is indeed a rogue outfit not worthy of representing teachers.

Teachers are now nothing more than a feeble blue coller entity whose leadership has failed them.

So nothing has been solved! Hundreds of thousands of dollars have been spent...for what...nothing. The BCTF is flawed and should not exist.

We now need to rationalize the entire educational system, and the BCTF is but a minor bit player in this process. That is good. WE need to talk to teachers to solve this issue not a stupid labour union.

Right now the BCTF is a minusia that must be totally ignored. The overwhelming good must awarded to the government and the parents.

The BCTF and the supporting Unions are guilty of thwarting the will of the people, and they the Unions will pay dearly!

Chella's blog: "..I have a great permanent part-time job with an understanding and supportive boss, who is an interesting, unique, and highly sought-after professional (and a real hottie, to boot).."

( from here: http://chella.myblogsite.com/blog/_archives/2005/10/8/1287884.html )

Hmmm. Understanding, supportive, and a hottie to boot. Your needs as a parent desiring easily available daycare across the street from your home are painfully obvious. Your wish-washy, equivocal, and conditional support for the rights of teachers to make their workplace (and incidentally your son's classroom environment) a better place seems to be secondary. Maybe this hottie employer can help you out? No? Awwww. Perhaps he sees in you what many here have already come to realize. You are self-centred, ill-informed, mendacious, and dithering. You haven't thought out the truly important issues facing us all. I hope Liam inherits some altruism from his dad.

Soapbox, I have long thought that the introduction of the lottery was the worst thing that could happen. Allowing people to 'dream' that they may escape rather than notice what was happening fiscally around them. And, I remember, it was around then that these things started happening. I don't know if it was by design. I tend to think not, but it sure has worked out well for them.

You are right about their plans and they don't hide it. Well, the politicians do hide it from the public so they can by stealth steal what isn't theirs, but their organizations are very upfront about it. There is a huge amount of information on their own websites about what they're doing. The Heritage Foundation, The University of Chicago's School of Economics, the PNAC document, Fraser Institute, Cato Institute etc all have much published about what they hope to accomplish and how they are going about it.
I'm not sure if that neo-con at the University of Calgary is upfront.

They are so immature and lacking in any wisdom, it would be laughable if they weren't hurting so many people and our environment. In fact some of their appointments in the US administration have given me a hearty laugh. Especially the appointment of a vet to Women's Reproductive Health after the head resigned in disgust at the mysogynistic, backwards bunch in the White House. I laughed even though I am a feminist of my own definition and a person who detests Neo-Conservatism. Just like they appointed the lawyer whose firm busted the most unions as the head of the Labour Department. They are so predictible and so full of themselves. They are fools. And, to they they think they are the 'elite'. Another laugh.

I just want to say I saw Jinny Sims on television tonight. She looks so dignified. And, so strong. She has the 'Power of What is Right' walking with her.

You all can be very proud of her, in my view. I am sending her positive energy as I'm sure many other people who are watching from the sidelines are as well.

Strength and power to Jinny Sims.

"We now need to rationalize the entire educational system..."

Didn't you mean to say privatize, SDGreen?

Jail? Crippling Fines? Before you get too jubilant, Eboneezer...

Canada still has the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. You haven't been able to dismantle that yet, though not for wont of trying.

To Redrivergirl

No not privatize, but rather to rationalize!

Privatization is definitly not the answer and would not work.

But the BCTF certainly has moved the argument that way!

Oh by the way, Jinny Simms is a true idiot in that she is now subjecting all teachers to onerous penalties and possible jail time.

Teachers, see the light, unionism is a flawed system. They are nothing more than parasites feeding off of you. They cannot accomplish very much.

Once again socialism fails!

So, if "the unions are outlaws", what are the Chambers of Commerce, the Boards of Trade, the prestigious conservative economic think tanks advertised as "charitable institutions" and the multinational oligopolies who are giving orders to the Campbell gang so they can take more out of the country ?

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Spunky Your post was great, truth from the front line. I hope you and all the teachers stay strong!

SpedteacherIt is not "suspicious" what is going on it is blatantly obvious!
Other unions are watching and talking; this may just be the government that forces everything union to shut down.

Sdgreen The teachers have not lost, they still have thousands of troops ready to join the fight.
Union's are outlaws? I don't think so. Unions are the backbone of a just and fair society. The power of the people know when laws go corrupt, and you are about to witness the beginning of a prime example of justification.

Stay tuned, and maybe you should take Spedteacher's advice and learn how to spell
G-E-N-E-R-A-L S-T-R-I-K-E
Have you thought about how it will affect your business?

redrivergirl Jinny Sims is doing a great job. Many of us are very impressed; she is a true rock!

She will lead this justification to victory against an unjust government. Everyone is realizing how corrupt this government is, and they are going to rise against it soon.

I was impressed with Jinny Sims too although she does look very tired and our fight has only just begun.

Lost the fight?? Are you kidding?? Through all of this so far, teachers are once again proud of their profession and have regained some dignity. We are standing up to the playground bully. I've read tons of stories and seen for myself the parents, grandparents, and children who have joined us on the picket line. My mother, for example, is going to bake cookies and join the picket line at her neighborhood school. Way to go, Mom!!! More and more of the public are beginning to understand the true issues at stake here and are behind us.

Do you really think that the BCTF and its members couldn't see far enough in the future to know that this was coming? The Liberal government is so predictable, after all. The action plan that was outlined to us before we voted indicated that there would probably be fines and possible arrests. Approx. one year ago Jinny Sims was talking to a group of teachers and told them that she was prepared to go to jail in defense of public education. Surely you must have seen Jim Sinclair at various news conferences, often standing directly behind Jinny. Come onnnnnn. Lost the fight .. it made me chuckle to read that. The only way we would lose the fight is if teachers lost their nerve and showed up for school on Tues. and that just ain't gonna happen!!!

BC has been ranked very high in terms of the education systems of the world. I would like to keep it that way. It is the government who is undermining our education system, not teachers and the BCTF. In my 18 yrs. of teaching, I have never been so impressed by a president of the BCTF as I am with Jinny Sims. Sorry if there are any former presidents reading this lol. When you can speak to her in person and see that conviction in her eyes, it is easy to tell that she believes in "the cause". This is not for show or a hope to win a seat in Victoria. She just wants the same things that all teachers want. Does that mean we all want a seat in Victoria? Not me!!!!

The government made a HUGE mistake when they introduced the "Teachers Collective Agreement Act" too soon. Don't you find the name a tad ironic?? Not only did he make some teachers who are usually complacent about job action angry enough to be more than willing to take this stand, but he brought more of the public onside with the teachers. The government started this fight when they first came into office and began ripping up and legislating contracts. Now is the time for us ALL to stand up for our basic human rights and the rights of our students to the best quality education possible. They aren't going to get that under the present conditions. THAT is why teachers will be out on the picket line, rain or shine, with smiles on their faces on Tues. If you look close enough at those faces you will see pride in them once again. It's been a long time coming.

Excuse me. Just checking to see if my log-in is functioning properly yet. Carry on!

tommymore: thanks for the plug for my blog! Much appreciated.

Just to remind one and all: teachers voted 90.5% in favour of our current actions after examining all possible consequences, including fines and jail time. Some of us have considered further and are quite willing to leave our jobs if that's what the wake up call requires. We hope it doesn't and look forward to the public's support. It turns out the "union radicals" are just ordinary teachers willing to fight for quality public education.

Yup, typical union rah rah! We lost but we won, what hypocracy!

Simms and the boys and girls will get fined and or jailtime or both. If teachers carry on their stupidity they too might face the corral!

Don't you guys get it? Your time was ill concieved. You waited for the election hoping that the wretched NDP would get into power and failed.

Militancy will not gain the BCTF too much other than more criticism.

Many people know unions are a vital requirement of a democracy. Without unions democracy doesn't exist.

Arnold tried to take the nurses and teachers on when he had a high approval rating. Presently, his approval rating has dropped to around 39% and guess what?

Unions approval ratings in California are raising at over
I'll see if I can find a link. I read a fascinating report about this and how his attack on the public sector union have resulted in his downfall. Some are calling him the one terminator.

http://www.ktvu.com/politics/4693630/detail.html

Hmm. I don't know SDGreen. I don't know how labour is doing things, but from a complete outsider's view, it looks to me that rather than waiting in hope the NDP would win, they waited until this gov't exposed itself to the public for who they really are. This has happened for the most part. Then again, it isn't labour who is selecting this. It is the gov't by declaring war on them. Just like in California.

' The only way we would lose the fight is if teachers lost their nerve and showed up for school on Tues. and that just ain't gonna happen!!!', says Spedteacher, who, by the by, is a member of the BCTF executive. You're probably right about that Sped, but some showed up last Friday, and more will show up Tuesday, and by Thursday or Friday you guys are in a very difficult predicament. Cause guess what? The gov't is not giving in to this bloody nonsense. Why should they? This was a big issue in the election and they won a solid majority. Also your timing couldn't have been worse. The long weekend has cooled the hype and guess what else? The next election is on May 17th 2009. Oh this fiasco is getting sweeter all the time. And once the BCTF leadership is crushed and embarrassed I can look forward to the November NDP convention, where they are going to tear each other's throats out. Can life get any better?

Of course when this all happens I'll do my best to make sure I don't rub it in.
Hey Coyote; Have another drink.

One day at a time. Teachers are ready to bargain. Teachers are on the picket lines. Teachers are resolved and have a good spokeswoman and leader, within a democratic union.

ROCK ON!

Redrivegirl said...

This is so true, and looks like solidarity has got sdgreen and nemisis sweating in their $300.00 shoes.

Guess you two will have a bit to lose during that general strike that will bring the government to its knees.

How are your knees right now? Feeling a little weak?!

How amusing that in this long debate, almost no one chooses to answer the question of the article: Is Rosa Parks, er, I mean, Jinny Sims going to jail?

Funny how the author, Mr. Schreck, chose to quote from the dissenting (losing side) decision of the Supremes. Which means that the MAJORITY of the court said that yes, Saint Rosa, er, Saint Jinny, might well go to jail.

I wonder who'll film her daily web videos from Surrey remand?

sdgreen and your collective idiot friends of Gordo. When are you going to get it right. THE TEACHERS ARE THE UNION. Obviously you have zero education in this department.A union is a democratic society. A collection of people with a common goal. They elect their executive and advise them of their wishes. Unlike the gestapo in Victoria who have big business pay to hire the man who runs the cabinet. Then he in turn dictates the wishes of big business. The elected leaders and the members of the BCTF have stated that they will not go back to work until their issues are solved. Whether or not they go to jail. And The Union (members) ratified this with a 90.5% vote in favour. And the rumblings of a general strike are not just rumblings. We are very close to a situation that could cost more than just pay, or babysitting problems. And the biased newspapers are not getting away with their B.S. anymore. The general population of this province have wisened up to their biased crap.
As "The Who" put it...I won't get fooled again.
So after you'e done some reading as to just what a union and the labour movement are and you are sure you can put up a valid arguement then maybe we will answer some of your posts. Until then, I am putting you on ignore, idiot

Civil rights thru civil disobedience? Schreck calls this Disney strike civil disobedience? Spedteacher's mom is gonna be doling out
choc-chip cookies to the wretched disobedients facing down the fascists on the line? Jinny's farce will play out bye the bye and there'll be another Tyee forum soon enuff for the disaffected honkers to toot at as they drive by. Hi ho!
Ho hum.

Gary, well put.

Looks like Martin and Bud carlos are joining the ranks with wobbly knees.

How well will your business run without us?!

Te Aro, it seems to me there must be a neocon site for instructing trolls, since they all have the same modus operandi. First they come out with some highly inflammatory statements, wait for the bites, play them a bit, then come out with some half-facts, play them a bit, then appear to be all reason and light to put you off guard, and then after you think you've made some headway, out they come with the same BS they started out with in the first place.

If you review Chella's postings, you can see she's played that routine out three or four times, wasting everyones time. sdgreen is a bit more polished in doing it, but go back and review his postings and you'll see the same routine too. Nemesis is so obviously a waste of time, I'm at a loss trying to figure out just how he sucks people in.

These people are borderline psychopaths, folks, just getting off on convincing themselves they're superior by insulting others who are too "stupid" to recognise their trolling for what it is.

That's NOT "dialogue".

sdgreen is totally ill informed about what will and will not be done to teachers during their so called illegal strike.Fines definetly,jail time for Jinny Simms possibly, jail time for teachers very unlikely. After the drunken episode of our infamous premier, it would be political suicide for the Fiberals to allow the public to see hundreds of teachers hauld off to the slammer by the police.Incidently, this was done back east in the U.S. The public was so outraged by this action of the government that all arrests were rescinded. The government of the looked ridiculous.

You know whether Jinny goes to jail or not is really irrelevant you've got 42,000 pissed off teachers. Suppose you jail her and the executive and they still don't go back? gonna jail 42,000 more? Okay so you do, jail the membership, that is (tell me where -I thought our jails are overcrowded already) tell me who's gonna teach the kids then? got quick access to 42,000 more teachers? Even at 25% of the members going to jail or out right quit got over 10,000 immediate replacements? I don't think so. Better get back to the table guys you're playing a losing hand.

Good point Blonde Pitbull. I believe however that the Fiberals think they are in a winable position with the aid of the Courts. Teachers are slow to anger and really don't want this fight with this government. But their resolve will not faulter. If the government persues its agenda to destroy the BCTF it will essentially commence the beginning of its own downfall. Be brave teachers for your time in history will be vindicated.

'Guess you two will have a bit to lose during that general strike that will bring the government to its knees.' Sorry to disappoint you Joe, but there won't be a general strike. In fact there's already dissension in the ranks. Do you think CUPE will stay home again tomorrow? Do you think the HEU is ready to walk for teachers, who make twice as much as some of them? Do you think George Heyman, who has admitted that the Libs have been quite fair with his BCGEU members over the last four years, are ready to walk for teachers? Rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric Joey, and it's way over the top. Over the next few days, if the teachers do hold the picket lines, they'll hear the supportive honks turn to chants of 'get back to work'. Count on it Joey boy, count on it.

Scylla offered,

That's NOT "dialogue".

What I do not get is why the wish to come here if they do not approve of the "left learning" articles and posters of The Tyee.

There surely is enough of them that they could form thier own blog. Is there not a more conservative board for them to post somewhere? This is what I do not get, I would not waste my time on a Michael Savage neo-con board, or waste hours of my time listening to Rush Limbaugh. Although we tune into them sometimes to hear their viewpoints, we don't bother picking battles on their "turf". We had CKNW for that.

It is not that we don't like the diaglogue, but some of the "pot shots" become tiresome.

Maybe we would come to their website and have a dialogue with them? That is, if they do put in the time and creating an message board for public dialogue.

Nah, that would be a waste of time.

Moat; Occasionally I think about leaving this site b/c there's so much boring blather from the posters, but then posts like yours come along to remind me how much fun this can be. Have a nice day.

Of course CUPE school board employees will stay home tomorrow or picket with us. Their contract is up soon, they havn't had a wage increase in 3 years, the demands placed on them are increasing & they know that the better deal the teachers negotiate, the better off they will be when its their turn.

It's sad. Teachers were once respected in society and regarded as professionals. They are now the laughing stock of the professional world.

They may in fact deserve a pay-raise, if indeed they are getting paid lower than they would be in Ontario. They can't use Alberta as a comparable, because Alberta brings in far more money per pupil and per resident. However, they are getting paid more than Quebec and most other provinces.

However, the government implemented the zero, zero, zero policy and was serious by it. We have turned the corner due to sound fiscal management.

The teachers have lost my respect outright. They hold the education system hostage and use it as a political chess piece. They care little about the kids, and are greedier than ever.

Moat;

One sided discussion does not make a debate. The left have views as do the right, and indeed those who align to the centre.

We all learn from this dialogue in one form or another. It is unfortunate that you do not have an open mind.

There have been some very good posts herein that have indicated some issues in the field of education. I think the disagreement is 'how' do we find resolution. Clealy the current methodology put in place by the previous NDP government is flawed and needs to be fixed.

I am not in support the union approach to this problem and indeed most other issues, especially as such deal with the public purse. There has to be a better way. Governments must look at the rainbow of issues confronted them from healthcare to infrastructure to the economy and apportion the public purse accordingly. Different folks do have comments are government priorities and philosophy.

Education certainly is important, but not at the expense of the other programs. The problem is how to find the balance point.

Unfortunately singular unions only have one point in their compass without taking into consideration the other three hundred and fifty nine points.

I am sorry, Nemesis. I am sorry that we failed you as teachers.

I apologize that to you for the fact that you have become twisted and poisened, that your informative years lived during your schooling has left you emotionally crippled, destined to live the rest of your adult life as this wretched Gollum-like creature we see here before us. Only you and your tormented soul know how much you must have suffered at the hands of bullies, perhaps a beastly dad or uncle, maybe an older brother...

Please forgive your teachers for not seeing your suffering and hearing your cries for help... saving you from your personal hell.

No, nemesis, your teachers were too busy juggling your 33 fellow classmates' needs for you to be saved. You should have screamed louder, Nemesis, you should have screamed louder.

I am sorry and I love you.

Nemesis,

I think you need a good exercise program.

I am sure this hobby is causing damage to your general health.

Have a day.

'It's sad. Teachers were once respected in society and regarded as professionals. They are now the laughing stock of the professional world.' Why, you ask? Because they are no longer an 'association of professionals', but would rather be referred to as a trade union. A teacher friend of mine heard her local president several times refer to teachers as trade union members, and also heard Jim Sinclair say that the barrier between the teachers and the support staff (janitors, electricians, landscapers etc.) needs to be broken down. You make your bed and you lie in it Jinny. Hope you get some bread and water too.
p.s. could someone please provide the url for her jailside live webcast.

RE: 0-0-0,

What many people don't understand is that the cuts made to teachers' and students' working and learning conditions amounted to their already having received less than nothing from the Liberals' first term. Further, those teachers who were not laid-off and forced to attempt the impossible, have not had a pay increase for 2.5 years. But, this is not just about money. It is about respect. The teachers respect the children in their care; they respect the needs of future generations; and, they they respect themselves.

Hitler and his crew wrote laws. Stalin and his bunch wrote laws. Saddam Hussein... The Taliban... Ghandi was civilly disobedient. Luis Reil was civilly disobedient. The Dalai Lama, peace and kindness personified, cannot return to his homeland because he is civilly disobedient -- a criminal!?

Teachers have been more than fair for twenty years. Now, we have said, and continue to say: "Enough is enough. We will not stand for this government's bullisome ways. We will do exactly what the Ministry-developed curriculum tells us to teach children about dealing with bullies. We shall stand together to protect one another. We will not be victims, nor will we look like them. When this is over, we must be able to look our students in the eye when we deliver anti-bullying curricula. If we were to give in to this draconian legislation, we would be unfit to teach. The number one rule of teaching is to model the behaviour that you are attempting to teach. We, therefore, must model how to deal with bullies. We will always attempt to have a dialogue, and we will always try to be fair. We are a democratic body and we are good people. We will continue to educate, ourselves to fulfill our professional roles as teachers and caregivers.

When this is over, I will invite anyone in the public who can and will pass a criminal records check into my space as a teacher. He or she can help me do what I do for a day, and he or she can extrapolate that times 186 -- always remembering that in order to be most effective as a teacher, I must maintain joy in my heart and each of my students' individual needs and safety foremost in my mind.

Just as between the Postal Workers and the Federal government, so is it between the Campbell government and the BCTF, with both governments choosing, invariably, to promote conflict - and this usually aided by the ever-reliable, compliant judges.

Civil disobedience has its honorable place.

Now retired, but when involved in an "illegal"
strike, I carried a sign:

I really am contemptuous

In view of what the Court has had to say, if I was a teacher in B.C. today, I would be carrying that sign.

I can see your fright nemesis, just like the others that cannot handle the fact that unions still hold enough power to uphold a just society. Maybe it is time to show just how important unions are to this province.

It is time for all unions to come together and stage a one-day strike on October 14th

Of course we will also welcome parents and the like who support teachers to stay home too, because that's what a union is, Power of the People! We will then see how much in this province operates.

Then if nothing is resolved over the weekend, on Monday October 17th we will continue the job action until the government gets back to the table and negotiates a fair contract with the teachers.

Yes all unions might as well show their solidarity now and fight this corrupt government because that rabid dog will just keep coming at our throats one by one if we don't pack and bring it down now.

Thanks for putting us on the right track nemesis! One day we will all say how you helped to instigate this movement.

Unfortunately you are right, Average Joe. Unless there is a general strike to remind these despots that they aren't 'really' holding all the cards, they wont' stop. They'll keep taking rights away from the citizenry until their stopped. There is nothing reasonable about them. They are reactionaries who can't really think things through to their logical conclusions and therefore cause a lot of grief for society until they are stopped.

They're stopped.

gosh. there as well.
okay, I'm renewing my vow not to correct errors, once again.

RE: 0-0-0,

What many people don't understand is that the cuts made to teachers' and students' working and learning conditions amounted to their already having received less than nothing from the Liberals' first term. Further, those teachers who were not laid-off and forced to attempt the impossible, have not had a pay increase for 2.5 years. But, this is not just about money. It is about respect. The teachers respect the children in their care; they respect the needs of future generations; and, they they respect themselves.

Hitler and his crew wrote laws. Stalin and his bunch wrote laws. Saddam Hussein... The Taliban... Ghandi was civilly disobedient. Luis Reil was civilly disobedient. The Dalai Lama, peace and kindness personified, cannot return to his homeland because he is civilly disobedient -- a criminal!?

Teachers have been more than fair for twenty years. Now, we have said, and continue to say: "Enough is enough. We will not stand for this government's bullisome ways. We will do exactly what the Ministry-developed curriculum tells us to teach children about dealing with bullies. We shall stand together to protect one another. We will not be victims, nor will we look like them. When this is over, we must be able to look our students in the eye when we deliver anti-bullying curricula. If we were to give in to this draconian legislation, we would be unfit to teach. The number one rule of teaching is to model the behaviour that you are attempting to teach. We, therefore, must model how to deal with bullies. We will always attempt to have a dialogue, and we will always try to be fair. We are a democratic body and we are good people. We will continue to educate, ourselves to fulfill our professional roles as teachers and caregivers.

When this is over, I will invite anyone in the public who can and will pass a criminal records check into my space as a teacher. He or she can help me do what I do for a day, and he or she can extrapolate that times 200 -- always remembering that in order to be most effective as a teacher, I must maintain joy in my heart and each of my students' individual needs and safety foremost in my mind.

If all the teachers and politicians in BC were laid end to end, I wouldn't be a bit surprised.

redrivergirl,

Don't worry. You're being spooked by all these teachers, but it's not grammar or spelling they're looking for but sentiments.

mabellbc:

"[B]However, the government implemented the zero, zero, zero policy and was serious by it. We have turned the corner due to sound fiscal management."

Sorry, but could you re quote from the BC Liberal election platform guide again? I'm sure the teachers are disheartened to hear that they lost your respect. I suspect that they never had it personally. Call me cynical. And in terms of the 0,0,0 mandate, please tell me in your opinion, whether or not that that resulted in a net decrease of wages and benefits for teachers and other public sector workers.

Because in fact, while the govt held to 3 years at 0, the Consumer Price Index and the rate of inflation are up substantially. So in fact, teachers and other public sector workers are making less today than they did in 2002. I believe that Jinny Sims and the executive of the BCTF, as well as others are prepared to go to jail over this dispute. With a 91% mandate on this course of action, how could they not feel that the membership of the BCTF is not behind them??

I think it goes deeper than this. I think this goes way back to the Maui Owie incident and the personal repercussions for Gordon Campbell at home over his actions. It is time people stood up to this arrogant jackass and his pompous bunch of fools who still attempt to govern like there's no opposition. I can only hope that the GEU, CUPE, and other public sector unions are watching our illustirious jackass of a premier, and with the economy booming like it is, the attempts to hold working people down at the expense of the corporate community.

writes kegler.

Mmmm, Mmmm good...for my hot turkey sandwich and for the wonderful yummy words above by kegler, I give thanks to the gods of harvest and just desserts. May Gordo one day harvest his...

If the teachers go back to work tomorrow, they will be going back to an employer who thinks they are worthless. They will be going back to an employer who has told them I have a big fist and I will hit you with it if you do not come back.

It is an abusive relationship.

The BCTF offers hope. If we stick together, there is another possibility. We can eventually sit down with our employer and discuss the workplace and our salaries. We must do this with mutual respect. We must work together.

Hope or an abusive relationship. Teachers have no choice!

Re the law:Laws are made for guidence of wise people and the obedience of fools

The BCTF are neither wise or fools, just misguided!

Hello sdgreen,

Teachers are a pretty conservative subgroup of society. They are not easily swayed one way or the other. The vote was 90.5% in favour of job action. How is it that you are more enlightened than 42,000 teachers who daily interact with this province's children and their families? In the previous election, close to an equal percentage of teachers voted for the Liberals as did the other segments of society. They have learned from their mistake. Perhaps you are the one who needs to revisit his thinking. What is your motivation for not wanting the teachers to not get a fair deal for themselves and their students?

You speak about education possibly needing to make some changes. OK, so be it; but you must fund the system that is while you attempt to rebuild and change. Schools are not branch plants. You can't downsize when you restructure - children fall through the cracks! Schools need to be fully functioning and vital. When you make changes, you had better support the most vulnerable because you can't just lay them off: they still exist.

This government has failed to support the most fragile in our society and we have had increased real crime statistics in every year since the Liberals have been in power. This is in reverse to a 20 year trend. The teachers have to deal with the children of those families that have individuals engaged in criminal activities. We also have to deal with families that are victims of crime. It is all connected. Society does not operate on a corporate agenda.

*What is your motivation for not wanting the teachers to not get a fair deal for themselves and their students?

What is your motivation for not wanting the teachers to get a fair deal for themselves and their students?

Regarding Mike de Jong

Well did Mike ever come off as a fool on the news tonight. Imitating how students may use the teachers job action as way to defy teachers instructions to do their work.

What a joke you portrayed yourself as Mike.

And then saying that the reason we have not seen Gordo is because its not a serious enough issue.

I won't be surprised if they cut all those comments out of the 11:00 news tonight. Too bad for all those that missed it. It was a good laugh.

Wake up Mike! Your comments indicating that you're hopeful the teachers are coming back to work are getting old. They are not coming back! Time to start negotiating with the teachers before a collective labour initiative really wakes you, Gordo and this province up.

Facts are the lesson students are learning is if there are unjust laws, and enough people believe in the cause, then there is a way to correct the situation. Its called the collective way. The union way.

Students are getting one of the best lessons they can learn, and that is that the union way is the voice of all, the voice of the people, their voice to create change in an unjust society. Unions are the people as one voice that stands together to rectify the unjust.

Better start to re-think things out Mike, because bigger disruption is just around the corner.

There is a call for all unions to stand up together in this fight. Are you prepared?

Redrivergirl: The Ontario teachers suffered under the Mike Harris government just as B.C.T.F. is suffering under Gordon Campbell's.

Ontario teachers are watching the B.C. situation and I hope there's a lot of information-sharing going on.

As Average Joe says, "There is a call for all unions to stand together ... "

The Mrs and I just got back from the daughter's, and a big turkey dinner. With this big struggle of the teacher's coming on, I don't know how much thanksgiving we've got to do, but nonetheless, I hope you folks all had a good day.

I'll do my thanking at the other end of here, if teacher's and all of us win this one.

Bring on these "masah" assholles to whom the sdgreens and the other wingnuts of this world are so beholden to. Time to kick some asss is my hope. :-0

To whoever said that there were teachers and CUPE members crossing the lines on Friday ... I don't know where you got your information but I certainly didn't hear that. We did, however, have a few CUPE members who spent the entire day on the picket line. Today I had the parent of a friend of my son's call to check to make sure that there was no school on Tues. She expressed her support for the teachers even when told that there might not be any school all week andddddd she offered to watch my son anytime I'm on picket duty or need any help at all. I also had another parent call me and thank me repeatedly for all the hard work I did to complete the application for her son to receive extra teacher assistant time before going out on strike. She told me "I know you are fighting this fight for kids like mine. ANYTHING you need, just call." And people say there are no support for teachers out there?????

Chella: did you watch the news tonight? They answered many of your questions. You were told numerous times there were solutions if you just looked, if you recall.

Yes, I am a member of a BCTF sublocal Exec. That's a sublocal consisting of 57 teachers. Yup, I have tons of influence over all the BCTF lolol. I don't think so but thanks for the giggle. But I am a teacher who is very concerned about her students. That's why I am on the picket line, why I spend time reading all the posts on here and other sites, and why I'm willing to stay out for as long as it takes (no matter what financial hardships this may cause me).

(I found it kind of amusing when Global TV kept going on about the financial hardships parents who have to pay for more daycare are suffering. I guess teachers receiving no pay from their Boards while this strike is on don't matter. After all, we are only trying to help our students lol. But Global should try to hide their bias a little, don't you think? I wonder who it is on their staff that wants to be the next Liberal MLA. Tony Parsons maybe???)

Heres a story idea for Global TV.

When the Telus lockout ends they can do a story on the hardships being faced by the laidoff goon security agencies that were hired to intimidate the workers on the lines.

With so many right-wing assertions masquerading as fact, it's hard to pick which one to refute. I guess I'll settle on Nemesis as usual.

"This was a big issue in the election and they won a solid majority."

Libs received 46% of the popular vote N. If you're blind to the obvious, just think how many subtleties are escaping you!

This shameful display of militant education union arrogance and sense of entitlement put on by B.C. teachers is exactly what the Dalton McGuinty government faced in Ontario not long ago.

Institutional arrogance run amok.

Instead of holding the line on costs with legislation, then setting improvement goals tied to wages as the British Columbia government has done, Dalton gave our militant teachers the money up front, then made the testing procedure less accountable by making it easier to pass, guaranteeing an “improvement” when the teachers fail to deliver the goods, as is the norm in brain-dead Ontario.

The only thing children really learn from the example B.C. Teachers have set is if you don’t get your own way, just break the law to get it. Look how easy it is to get something you never earned nor rightly deserve.

It’s the easy way out.

But breaking the law is the very worst example for teachers to set for the kids and public they are highly paid to serve, yet they serve themselves first, always.

Save it markalanwhittle

The facts are students are discovering how to stand up to an unjust government that is creating unjust laws.

Standing up to this corruption with civil disobedience is what makes our democratic society free of corporate greed enslaving the people.

This is giving all students a lesson that is sure to help build a just society and strengthen the membership of unions internationally.

Unions are watching, and they will not let this opportunity to better our society pass.

Like I said before, the rabid dog is coming at the throat of the BCTF, it's time to form a pack and bring down the rabid dog before it tries to finish us one by one.

This government has been attacking unions long enough.

The pack is forming...

When the law is an ass, the very best example we can set for our children is to stand up against it. Far from "serving themselves first", as a previous poster maintains, the teachers of this province ARE DOING THIS FOR THE KIDS. Much of the deserved increase in funding for education will go toward improving a system gutted heartlessly by the government over the past 4 years. No other tactic exists to force the issue. Legislation instead of negotiation is the Liberal government's strategem. Fatally flawed, as we shall observe as the week progresses. I agree that a GENERAL STRIKE may be the strategem all labour unions in our fair province may have to employ. BRING IT ON, GORDO! This headache may be enough to "drive him to drink". Heh, heh. Not that he hasn't already been "down that road".

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10582.htm

Here's a very interesting article about having to disobey unjust laws. It talks about how nothing has been given (to working people/citizenry) that they've had to pay for it with their blood.

I can't attest to the site - in other words I am not familiar enough with it to vouch for other articles. But at first glance it seems okay. The article is very good.

People died for the right to a weekend. To work an 8 hour day and for there to be no child labour. What these dregs of society are doing is unconscionable.

Yes, I know Harris tried the same thing in Ontario as the Oneterminator is in California.

Harris appears to have a drinking problem too.

‘Unjust laws exist: shall we be content to obey them, or shall we endeavor to amend them, and obey them until we have succeeded, or shall we transgress them at once?’ --Henry D. Thoreau

The article is called, "The Trouble With Authority"

'What many people don't understand is that the cuts made to teachers' and students' working and learning conditions amounted to their already having received less than nothing from the Liberals' first term. Further, those teachers who were not laid-off and forced to attempt the impossible, have not had a pay increase for 2.5 years'. More misinformation (lies) Sharing. The Libs gave the teachers 2.5% a year for 3 years. That was more than your revered NDP gave them in 10 years. That contract ended in June of 2004. Try checking your facts before you spout your blather.
'To whoever said that there were teachers and CUPE members crossing the lines on Friday ... I don't know where you got your information but I certainly didn't hear that.' Sorry Sped but it's true, you didn't hear it b/c your fearless leaders don't want you to know it. And there will be many more teachers walking tomorrow and more Wednesday and more again Thursday. This strike is ILLEGAL, and teachers are under no obligation to break the law. Notice that the picket signs don't say 'ON STRIKE'? Think that's a coincidence? The BCTF should be messing their pants right about now, despite all the bloody nonsense spewing from the mouth of their leader and witnessed on this site. Read 'em and weep kids, read 'em and weep.

"Civil law cannot set us free. Only our respect for the rights and welfare of others can do that."

Here's a quote from the article.

Oh, by the way BCTV at six had a fair news cast concerning the teachers! They interviewed a lot of people, all of whom supported the teachers and they fairly presented the issues. As well they showed Ms Sims and what she really said about civil rights. I was a little surprised to see such fairness, I've become so cynical.
Global is not worth watching anymore, inspite of some of their capable anchors.

This ridiculous 'law is an ass' argument isn't holding much water, especially since Bill 12 is so reasonable. The teachers will break this week and the union will be severely weakened. By May 17th 2009 the only thing the voting public will remember is that the selfish whining sheepish teachers locked their little darlings out of their schools for a week. Well done Gordo!

Nemesis, could you please name some of the many schools where teachers and cupe members crossed the line?

Didn't say CUPE members did Gail, but I know some teachers did. Name them? Oh sure, why not? Here they are:

Nemesis: You clearly implied both by the quote and your response. " 'To whoever said that there were teachers and CUPE members crossing the lines on Friday ... I don't know where you got your information but I certainly didn't hear that.' Sorry Sped but it's true, you didn't hear it b/c your fearless leaders don't want you to know it. "
I obviously do not expect you to name names, it's just that you must understand it's very difficult for me to simply take your word for it since no news station that I could find made any mention of teachers crossing the picked line. And with the BC media, you know they would not miss on an opportunity to report that.
Assuming I do believe your statement that some did cross, how many are we talking about? 2 or 3 of your friends? Hardly a large group of dissenters! There are approx. 42,000 teachers in BC. Based on what I hear and read, teachers stand very strong on this issue.

Nemesis, do you really believe that the 90.5% of teachers who voted to walk off the job indefinitely (this was clearly spelled out to us before we voted) are all selfish, whining and sheepish? Perhaps you should come to a picket line and talk to some of the individuals there to better understand their concerns. For example, while you are correct in pointing out that the current government imposed a contract that provided a net 7.5% increase in salaries, you may not be aware that the province only provided funding for the first 2.5% (year one of the 3-year deal). School boards had to supply the remaining 5%, which is why working conditions in the previous contract were destroyed - this allowed for the so-called "flexibility" of local boards to dramatically increase class sizes as well as reduce the availability of resources such as special needs teachers and aides to assist with the increased volume of students with mild or severe learning disabilities. There are so many other issues surrounding the deterioration of our working conditions that I will not go into, but the end result is that in my opinion (and that of my colleagues) we lost much more in our working conditions than was provided for us in the salary increase - an increase that, I'm sure you're aware, did not match increases in the cost of living. To us, the straw that broke the camel's back was when the government, by imposed a contract on us that maintains the status quo, in essence told us that a) we are not worthy of a pay increase, given our increased workload and cost of living; and b) we have no right to negotiate our own working conditions, even though we are the ones who directly see the impact these conditions have on our students.

As I said though, if you don't believe me, perhaps you should discuss these issues with my colleagues on the line this week. At the very least, I think you'll be hard-pressed to find even a handful of teachers dropping their signs and returning to work without any serious attempt at negotiation on the part of the government.

You may be right MGB, but I doubt it. I don't mean to bash teachers, in fact I have great respect for most. I do find the actions of their leaders quite disgusting, including the way they lead them around by the nose. This current group has been allowed to become far too political and far too dangerous, and that's why we're here now. I hope they get knocked down a notch or better yet out completely. The teachers could well use a change in direction, as they've been going nowhere fast under the leadership of the politicos, i.e. Chudnovsky, Worboys and Sims. I do apologize to individual teachers if I've insulted them, but I do think you need to take a good hard look at where these guys are taking you.

sdgreen stated....

We all learn from this dialogue in one form or another. It is unfortunate that you do not have an open mind.

I agree with you that one sided discussion does not make a debate. However, why must we always look for a "winner" and a "loser"? Whether or not it matters to you, sdgreen, I have actually started to read some of your posts again.

We can learn from this dialogue, but I feel that some posters need to be more respectful of the ideological background of this blog. Right now, it is an exercise in frustration and baiting rather than fruitful discussion.

We know that The Tyee tends to post articles related to organic food, environmental issues, and has pro-union contributers. The BCTF even has a link to this [/I]The Tyee on their web page.

While even "neo-cons" are always welcome, it should be to share a viewpoint, not bait other users of the site. Mind you, I should not be appointing myself as a speaker for [I]The Tyee, and who am I really to judge what a "quality" post is? I for one, sometimes enjoy a good "name calling" post.

Still, it appears that there are a few posters here who seem to need an outlet to rant. Is that really the purpose of this site? To rant and antagonize? Sabotage and crash discussions?

I am sure that someone could create another blog for that purpose. There seems to be a market for it.

Nice try Nemesis, but your predictions don't fly.

Facts are that the teachers are gaining more support all the time.

Your past predictions of

and

have also proved incorrect.

Truth is that the the timing was perfect to gather the supporters and the long weekend has built the momentum. The fact that it was thanksgiving has also strengthened our resolve.

Tomorrow, rallies will be held province wide in support of the teachers. Just check for yourself here... http://www.bcfed.com/bcindex

COMING EVENTS:

Nanaimo-Ladysmith Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

Vancouver Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

Sunshine Coast Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

Kamloops Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

Salmon Arm Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

Penticton Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

Kelowna Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

Terrace Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

Prince George Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

East Kootenay Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

Duncan Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

Port Alberni Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

Kitimat Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

Campbell River Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

Courtenay - Comox Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

Victoria Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

Duncan Teachers Support Rally 10/11/2005

This is growing momentum for a just cause that will utilize the support of unions nationwide.
You can check out the beginning of this support here...
http://www.bctf.bc.ca/bargain/negotiations2004/TeachersTakeAStand/support/OtherUnions.html

So no use spewing your BS, it's only in your dreams, so you might as well go back to sleep nemy-boy.

100% of the teachers in my town were on the picket line on Friday.

100% of the CUPE workers in my town did NOT cross the picket line.

Every CUPE member who works at my school brought treats and many are eagerly awaiting delivery of signs from their union to wear on the picket line with us.

I asked my sublocal President tonight (she has access to information that I don't) and she said that she's heard that one ... count that ... ONE teacher in all of BC went to school before 8:00 am. on Friday (before picket lines were set up at the school) but she didn't know if the teacher left the school once picket lines were set up or not.

I think that's awfully good since teachers are only willing to take part in a strike when pushed very, very, VERY hard.

Ask me nice and I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow Want to bet that the numbers remain the same?????

I have been reading all of the comments and my head is full now.
I am just a lowly part time teacher who doesn't know a lot of the ins and outs of the union, etc.

Can anyone who knows what they're talking about answer some scary questions for me?

First, will I be arrested and put in jail and/or have any kind of criminal record for participating in this illegal strike? The idea of doing something illegal is a little intimidating to me.

Second, will I have to pay any money from my wages to cover the costs of the fines that the unions will receive? I've heard someone say that they can garnish wages to cover this.

Third, what happens to a teacher who crosses the picket line and refuses to participate in this strike? Not that that's what I want to do, I'm just curious.

Please don't pummel me with comments about being uninformed, etc. etc. I admit that I am. I just need some simple answers.
Thanks.

In case you hadn't noticed folks, nemesis is now midstream in the "conciliatory" phase.

But he hasn't quite grasped how the Bad Cop - Good Cop shtick is played yet, spoiling it in the next breath with this unwittingly stupid remark:

Jenni, when Ontario settled their contract, they negotiated on the fines levied to the Union.

There isn't a precedent in BC for fining individuals.

You must consider, it's like jailing Union leaders - it won't work. The rest of the Unions in BC will walk off the job if that sort of action begins, they know all too well that the legislative hammer will be used on them, as well, when they go to "negotiate" contracts.

(Or is it when they stand in line to hear the dictated terms?)

Rock On - solidarity works!!!

Jenni, what Louise says is true.

As a parent I thank you for taking a stand and you will see in the coming days, and starting today, you will get growing support from other unions as well.

Solidarity keeps us strong.

Jenni,

none of us are happy about this action, believe me and we are all feeling scared, but the point is, as a beginning teacher, you have the most to loose if we don't stand up for public education - you really don't want to be teaching in an overcrowded classroom with too many children with varying learning needs - you wouldn't last, believe me. My suggestion is go to your own district union office and ask someone there to talk to you about what has happened in the past and what all the ramifications are for you. Yes, its scary and we are all loosing out right not, but the reality is that if we don't stand up to the bullies, we will lose what we as teachers treasure - our public education system, and all of our students will loose too - hang in there!

Now, doesn't Stump nail it here, in his reply to all these neocon wingnuts.

Jenni, someone further upthread, I believe it was redrivergirl, reminded us all again that nothing has been gained by working people, be it wages, reasonable hours of work etc., or even the severely limited degree of democracy we actually have, without a struggle. Unfortunately Jenni, though I hope you have the courage to stand up to it, and it is NOT easy, we all know that, it is teachers that are in the midst of the class struggle storm currently going on in society. (I was caught up in a five month strike myself, just prior to my retirement. It was a trying and nasty time, no doubt.)

It's always relatively easy to pick out the genuine voices Jenni, and it's unlikely any of your workmates or supporters here are going to be "pummelling" you. Not a one of us doesn't know exactly what you are going through, woman.
The power of the ruling class and The State can be pretty intimidating, no doubt.

Good luck and stay strong. :-)

The idea that teachers are walking the line because they are selfish is parrot ideology a the expense (pun intended) of some straighforward math. If they're (teachers) off for a week they lose a week's pay. The union has to pay a week's worth of strike pay. The gov't saves a week's worth of expenses (not quite, but you get the idea). The government saves enough money to pay for wage increases and more funding pretty quickly. Given it's a captive market for students, the gov't isn't going to lose any 'customers'. Who benefits the most monetarily from a work stoppage such as this? Most of the time, it's the employer.

It's pretty clear to me that teachers are striking for a principle. Too bad their employer doesn't seem to have any that don't include the bottom line.

"to parrot ideology at the expense...."

General Strike
General Strike

Note to nemisis:

Even though the bulk of our sadness manifests from poor working and learning conditions, I will return to your point about what I said about money. I will clarify my previous discourse for you.

Our last contract expired about 1.5 years ago. We were at the end of an imposed 3-year deal. The last wage increase was at the beginning of the final year of that 3-year period. Therefore, 1.5 + 1 = 2.5. So you see, it has been about 2.5 years since we had a wage increase.

Further, much of the last pay raise was retroactive. That means that much of the last increase was taxed at a higher rate than it would have been had it truly been spread over the years for which it was to cover. Now, here, I am at a loss to give you the exact figures as I do not know the personal finanacial situation of the province's 42,000 teachers and their families.

I do know that many of the province's teachers in the lower mainland and Victoria cannot afford to buy a home in the district where they teach. It seems rather silly that person with a professional degree (5 and more years of university training) cannot afford to purchase a home in the same place where they teach. We, therefore, must add hours of commuting time to the hours that these people must work. Commuting time is unproductive time. Since teachers are on salary, this unproductive time comes directly from the time that teachers are willing to put into their work. Most teachers work 10-14 hour days. At report card time, many teachers work 16-18 hour days.

My sister is one of the lawyers representing the union, she told me a bunch of stuff, basically that the employer side is quite sloppy in their paperwork and procedures. However the LRB has cleaned house of the labour friendly staff (my sister was an adjudicator there) and one way or another the government will get what it wants.

A friend of mine who is a teacher, is upset because he was really looking forward to working with the kids and now will be behind and will never be able to catch up when they get back, not to mention that he will never make up the lost wages.

Even if you don’t agree with the teachers, having the negotiation process overturned by the government is like being in a banana dictatorship.

jenni:
You personally will not be busted for not crossing a picket line. If anyone gets jail time it will start with Ms Sims. That is very unlikely to happen unless Gordo proves to be the bitter child I think he is.
And this is not an illegal strike. It is a workplace protest against an employer who refuses (or is told to refuse) to bargain.It then escalates to a protest against bad legislation deliberately put in place to antagonize a collective bargaining (Union) unit.
And I would like to make a crucial point at this time. It was reported in the paper that Madam Justice Brown said the teachers were in contempt of court. They are not. The labour board ordered them back to work and they (the labour board) are not a court in the province of B.C. that I know of. Had the Supreme court of B.C. ordered them to return and they didn't then they would be in contempt. Now don't take this for gospel but I haven't found anywhere that this was declared a STRIKE by the BCTF. It appears the term is being used quite loosely by the press and especially one bureau chief in Victoria.
Now for your wages. Unless there is some legislation that I am unaware of or your unions' constitution provides for it, your wages won't be garnished. At any rate they cannot garnish more than it would take you to survive per month. The union has provisions for these things.
Finally, anyone who crosses a picket line is viewed with considerable contempt by their peers. Crossing a line brings a lot of supressed anger to the surface. But it is usually done by hired goons of the employer. And beleive me they are in every trade. Just like they are on these discussion boards.

I know you are apprehensive about this situation being rather new. I was once. But I took the time to check out the history of the union movement and started weighing both sides. I then became involved with unions and Workers Basic Rights. That is those rights that were fought for an defended by the union. A lot of these rights are just common sense. Light the right to bargain for safety, working conditions and salary. If these rights were not in place (as this govenment is attempting to remove them) there would be more workplace injury and deaths. More chaos, and people would not have enough money to live, sane working hours,pensions, holidays, or any of the other benefits we have today.
It will be up to you now to do some of the DD needed for a informed decision on your part. I might suggest you read your BCTF constitution first then look up legislations and Labour policies. When looking up legislation also try to recognize the dictatorial police since 2001.And check out the UN Labour rulings on the government of B.C.

Jenni; You have just received some incredibly irresponsible advice from Gary. Sounds like he may be a member of the BCTF executive. Yes, you may be fined for not reporting to work, but it's highly doubtful. Yes, your wages may be garnished to pay the fines, but the BCTF will probably try to pay them from general revenue. This may be difficult to do considering some teachers did not honour this ILLEGAL PICKET LINE, but they don't really give a rat's ass about law-abiding teachers anyway. Yes, you may be ostracized by your colleagues for crossing their ILLEGAL PICKET LINE, but you cannot be censured by the union b/c it is an ILLEGAL ACTION. Finally, yes, this ILLEGAL JOB ACTION is in contempt of court, as it has been deemed so by the Supreme Court of British Columbia b/c the new legislation was passed last Friday.
Hope this helps.

Sharing; Sounds like you're getting your logic from Jinny herself. What??????

nemesis if you would bother to read my post thoroughly you might understand it more completely. But I see by your response that all you want to do is emphasize that this job action is illegal. And the brunt of my post was trying to point jinni to some areas to do her Due Dilligence which is something you should be doing. Until then. IGNORE

Jenni,

Don't listen to the anti-teacher people. Here's the scoop to the best of my knowledge.

The BCTF has a VERY large job action fund. I have been to AGMs and seen the financial report. (I wouldn't be surprised if it's online). That fund is in place to pay strike pay, any fines that may occur, and other expenses as a result of this job action. They've been preparing for this since 2002 and they are ready. (A strike fund has been part of the BCTF budget for some time to the best of my knowledge).

If you went to your local's General Meeting held to conduct the last vote, you would have heard the statements read by your President from the BCTF Exec. outlining the job action plan, etc. In that plan, the BCTF Exec. stated that no member would have to face ANY disciplinary action alone. That means that the BCTF would cover all fines and will provide legal assistance to any member facing disciplinary action.

In regards to arrests ... Jinny Sims and possibly our VP are the ones who stand the biggest chance of being arrested. They also could be fined personally but they have been prepared for that possibility for some time now. IF the government decides to arrest anyone else, it would probably be the President and VP of your local and/or sublocal. I have to tell you, though, I highly doubt that the government would do anything more than fine the BCTF. Can you imagine the public uproar if the government started throwing a bunch of women in jail? (Because, let's face it, most of us are women!!) You can bet that would bring on a General Strike!!!! They can't possibly begin to arrest us all ... where would they put us???? Remember the fight against the appointed BC College of Teachers? They threatened to fire us all and, instead, they paid our dues for us!!!

If a teacher crosses the picket line, they face fines and possible disciplinary action from the BCTF (just as they would if they were a member of any other union). I would imagine that things would be a tad tense in the staffroom afterwards too but, I would think, that would only last for a while.

I've tried to think of a way to give you my email address but I don't want to leave myself open for nasty emails from the anti-teacher crowd lol. Contact your local President. He/she will probably be more than happy to answer your questions but I'm almost certain they will give you the same information I just have (I checked with my local President before writing this post). But your President is there to give you support when you need it so take advantage of it. You won't get condemned. And if you do (which I highly doubt), contact someone at the BCTF office and they will help you.

If you go to bctf.ca you can subscribe to BCTF Alerts. You would then get the "Taking the Stand" newsletters emailed directly to you. There are BCTF list servs as well but the one that is used the most is the PD list serv. One of our very generous colleagues posts newspaper articles, etc. almost every day.

Stay strong, Jenni. As long as we stand together we are strong. We are fighting for our students so what better cause could we have?

All the best to you!!

Mr Campbell and his Liberals are nothing but petty dictators engaged in usung every dirty trick in the book to remove any and all rights from the people....They consider the working people as mere chattels to beat into submission when they so disire....there is no compassion in this Government, it has no desire to better the lot of those who are not of the "Elite" class; IE. the politicians,a nd the rier rich supporters....Campbell's attitude is "If they are hungry, let them eat cake" and they assume that they do not have to follow the dictates of the Canadian Charter....The Campbell Liberals practise the dead communistic attitudes of the past....The will give nothing, take all, and proudly proclaim responsibility for "Improving the lives of the citizens" while they are wiping thier asses on the faces of the working class....It is a shamefull lack of human compassion and flies in the face of Democracy....Fair and transparent? pure crap! Lies, decete and dictatorial legislation is the BC. liberal hallmark; thier Motto; kill the people's right to decent living standards and give all the benifits of society to thier personal friends and supporters....They use the courts as weapons against fair and just treatment of all who are not in the Elite segment of BC's "Upper crust" IE; The heads of corporate BC, and the "Share Holders" of this greedy and malicious dictatorship....I aplaud the Teachers for thier stand against the dictatorship of Campbell!....."Used and Abused".

'If a teacher crosses the picket line, they face fines and possible disciplinary action from the BCTF (just as they would if they were a member of any other union.' This would be accurate if it were a legal picket line but it is not, therefore the union can not censure teachers who cross.

LOL, good to see Jimmy and nemesis back from the swamp. A little candle burning next to the CKNW radio dial, You should have hard David Berner and others on their anti teacher rants. Vile pigs taking a page out of the Harrisite revolution hand book. Lets see , we have a government that gives away 500 mil to corporations which was not campaigned upon yet has nothing for teachers and kids.

Last week 48,000 citizens were law biding and respected and teaching your kids, even Jimmy's little neo con's. This week exercising their democratic rights is now making them a criminal, we have kind of a creeping fascism here. The right to strike was not given it was taken and it will be taken back via civil disobedience, I dare Gordo to push this, the courts and ruling class make laws to benefit themselves, when these laws trample civil rights it is our responsibility to break them. We get the society we tolerate , I know some folks like to do as their told but I myself do not obey laws made to repress personal freedoms.

I wonder if Jimmy or nem...would obey a law that cracks down on public debate or enforces a curfew . How about a law that disallows association.

We will see who can exercise power, the courts and the ilk in office or the workers of this province. I say all 48,000 teachers turn themselves in, refuse the fines and plead not guilty in court quoting international
labour laws etc. Imagine 48,000 new cases flooding the system. The low life judge would have a few things to answer for. Every single one deserves a needs to go to trial, in the meantime , no school unless the bill is
repealed. If this takes more than a week call a general strike.

P.S --- Their is going to be allot of Red neck radio teacher bashing , aka CKNW and others.
Go to CBSC Canadian Broadcast Standards Council website and file a complaint when you here untrue or hateful statements being made. Its easy and fun and makes red neck Radio accountable

One more thing.....I wonder how much was paid to the court to rule theachers as criminals for wanting to earn a decent living?....with the constant price gouging going on in this province, ( The housing market in the lower mainland for instance, and the taxation aimed at the poorest segment of the population, the Legislation to lower the wage limits for all unskilled labour.....How in the bloody hell does one keep paying these greed mongers without the income to support themselves??? It's no damned wonder there are so many homeless, it is next to impossible to trive when government takes away all your rights to earn the nessasary standard living ammount. We cant pay what we dond have, and we cant demand more because we are activly prevented from reasonable and adequate standards for life.....Campbell is an ass! he cant see the forest for the trees! he thinks people can live in squalour and thrive the economy! what the people dont have is the respect by the very govenment that demands the same from those whom it relies opon for it's very existance!...Stupidity and greed do not win respect, nor help a people with the struggle of life....Teaches should get far more respect than to be labled as criminals, they have such a huge responsibillity to children, and Mr. Campbell is constantls spouting off about the importance of the Children....Bull Shit! he could care less! He is just a loud-mouthed dictator like the old Tzars of russia, full of his own importance and God-Hood....Gordon Campbell is the biggest threat to BC's people since the Black plague was to Europe.....Used and Abused.

' This week exercising their democratic rights is now making them a criminal, we have kind of a creeping fascism here.' Democratic rights are exercised by protesting, demonstrating, lobbying and voting. Committing illegal acts does not enter into the equation. This is not South Africa in the 80's or Alabama in the 60's.

There is a small discrepancy. The HEU contract did not cover the nursing profession. The general membership felt that we did,in fact, have the support of the labour movement during this period. We should have been able to capitalize on this. We are still suffering, perhaps April will bring a change.
____________________________________
The above comment was posted by someone who has obviously been brainwashed by the Right wing media and does not in truth sound like an HEU member as the tone of the comment seems to indicate.
The HEU contract does indeed cover the Nursing profession. Licensed Practical Nurses and Long Term Care aides are both part of the Nursing Team and as such are part of the "Nursing Profession". LPNs had just completed a lengthy upgrading that now allows them, among other things, to give out medications. For this they received a CUT in pay along with everyone else in HEU.
Teachers we are with you. this Government is out of control and is the equivalent of a Third world dictatorshi. we need to stand up for our rights NOW!!

sdgreen:
You must find out what a "union" is. Haven't spedteacher, Gary and others made this clear to you? There is NO way of talking to teachers other than negotiating with their union. So push for the government to TALK. If a teacher doesn't like his/her representation there are always openings to run for office and unlike our government positions, there is much greater equality of opportunity in unions (you don't have to be a movie star, or dripping with wealth, to have a chance). Teachers have voted and shown support for their leadership. It's NOT YOUR CALL.

Colin: Your sister, the lawyer, should not be telling you a "bunch of stuff" unless it is public knowledge. Also, your comments here could cause her to be identified and lose her client, or worse.

Laws: Laws are made by humans and laws are changed by humans.

About governments and leaders: When will we stop voting for drunks? They are impaired.

___________________________________________

A True Parable:

Once upon a time in a small city there was a public service picket line and a nasty troll came along in his marked company car and verbally abused picketers telling them that they deserved NOTHING ... $0.00. Later that day, at the picket captains and executive meeting, it was also decided that the troll's business should receive $0.00 from the members, who were left to their own consciences (because THEY HAD consciences) as to whether they would frequent the nasty troll's retail establishment, or not. It turned out that that particular public service was by far the largest employer in the area. The troll went bankrupt. The same picketers are out in the cold and rain again today.

Moral: If you find out who the trolls are, talk to THEIR pocketbooks. "Legislate" $0.00 for them. They will understand and gleefully support your decision.
_________________________________

Luceo, you are so right. This is the one thing that amazes me the most about supporters of this gov't/movement who own businesses that are in any way dependent on the good will and patronage of citizens. It is mind-boggling stupidity in my opinion.

In Cuba teachers don't have the right to negotiate a contract, so before you all try to take us down the road to extreme socialism beware of the eventual consequences.
Why not have Fidel run for the NDP leadership ?

Becaue Fidel Castro is a communist not a democratic socialist, and those are two different political philosophies, as you well know.

Nem.. says
"' Democratic rights are exercised by protesting, demonstrating, lobbying and voting
Committing illegal acts does not enter into the equation"

Go study labour history and the history of how laws are made, and say sorry. When rights are taken , new unjust laws need to be challenged. Once again , would you obey a new law limiting your rights and setting up a curfew. I'm glad Rosa Parks never felt like you. All Rosa did was refuse to follow the law that said blacks must sit at the back of the bus.
All the teachers are saying is, sorry we have a right to advocate for oursleves and kids, we will not be bullied by bogus self serving laws make by a extreme right wing gov. Don't be a fool nemesis, when quick laws are passed to limit your freedom I hope their are still folks around to stick up for you.

Jinny Simms:

Jinny Simms is to be ADMIRED. Nelson Mandela went to jail, was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize and also became president and a world leader. We also need honest people with courage, in public office here. She wouldn't have to go anywhere near jail to get my vote. To punish her, in any way, for representing her union, as she has been democratically directed to do, will mark her for sainthood.

B.C. Economy:
Teachers are in B.C. for 10 months of the year. They reside here, SPEND here, buy vehicles, homes (if they can afford them) eat in our restaurants, wear clothes, feed their children, etc. They spend much much more each than tourists. Many cannot afford summer holidays elsewhere, and work during summer to supplement their incomes. Increasing their pay keeps the money in our communities and increases teachers' taxes (yes, they all pay taxes, too). It is fiscally much more responsible to have our professionals paid at world competitive levels, than to spend massive sums to attract foreign industry here, in order to export profits to distant private owners with tax free offshore accounts and to provide secondary industry jobs to their exploited third world workers, while stripping this province of its natural resources. If our government could get a grip on our power and resource potential for its own people (not present it to Alcan or the U.S., gift-wrapped on a silver platter) we could easily afford education.

It is NOT the responsibility of teachers to pay for education. Teachers contribute steadily to our economy, support a clean environment and every day they sacrifice, spreads the hurt. Force the government to negotiate, fairly, and to withdraw its legislation. Write Campbell about human rights in a free enterprise system for ALL, not just for some. Support the teachers, support yourself.

Ron Erwin could have benefited from a formal education, come on support the teachers and think of poor Ron .

Luceo
While I appreciate your warning, she did not cross the line as to infringe on client/solicitor privilege and I kept my comments even more vague, nothing that can not be checked by a review of public records.

The biggest of many mistakes that Jinny Sims has made was to mention Rosa Parkes. All credibility went out the window with the public when she did that. Only the extreme lefties could support such nonsense. Perhaps she should quit trying to preach to the converted.

She is preaching to the converted and refighting the battle she lost on May 17 (and using $1.7m in union dues in the process).

Now tell me this, Jinny:

How many votes to strike were actually cast? Of the 42,000 teachers in BC, how many actually cast ballots?

Less than 25% of members would have voted in my guess. Someone correct me. I want facts.

Exactly 20,545 teachers cast ballots. 90.5% of them voted yes. That number is from the BCTF head office.

to jeanbirch:
thank you for clarifying my statement,(Dave A, 3 days ago) that was incorrectly interpreted by "joe" shortly afterward. The HEU is not the RNU of BC, for sure, but the LPN's, etc. do come in under the HEU contract. My point also, is that the RN's were the strongest and most vocal of support for their fellow workers, be they janitors, cleaners, et al, especially on the picket line, and I am sure that today, they will be expressing their unqualified support for the teachers.

There has been no vote to strike, working person. We are engaged in job action. More than 1/2 of the 42,000 teachers voted (90.5% of which voted) for job action. The rest of the teachers, knowing that job action would be forthcoming, and agreeing to it, decided that they need not vote.

With the current government's legislation that attempted to make a mockery of of democracy came our hardened resolve. BC is the only place in the free world where teaching has been declared an essential service. If we were essential, we would be needed 24/7 X 52 weeks a year. Where is this whiney premier who (years ago) declared education should be an essential service? If it were essential, the province must be in crisis. How dare he and the education minister not be out trying to resolve this crisis! How dare they send shifty-eyed de Jong out to the press! He is not an education expert! Teachers are the education experts and we tell you that the system is being broken by legislators who have no desire to make it function well. We are in this job action to protect education from further erosion and to bring it back at least to where it was.

I visited 10 schools in the last two days of job action. All teachers I spoke with reported very nearly 100% support from the public. The naysayers, here, and on the TV are in the minority. Keep up the effort, my colleagues.

From JIM

"The unions tried to win the last election and they lost. You lost. Now your trying to fight what the PEOPLE of BC voted for. This is not about the students. This is a political fight because Jinny is mad that the NDP didn't win the last election."

In reference to Jim basically saying the liberals won in May and their opponents, having lost, should shut up, I say WTF?

The ballot box is not the only place where we have the right to make our opinions about the govt heard.

If the NDP had won in May would Jim say "well they won and so we need to accept their policies and wait till 2009?"

I doubt it.

Maybe that's the point; left govts should be vigorously opposed at all times but right govts shoud have their electoral "mandate" respected.

What a load of crap. Kind of like saying it's ok for corps and wealthy individuals to lobby for their interests via chambers of commerce and "taxpayers federations" etc but if working men & women who actually get their hands dirty (let's see how long the head of Telus lasts working in a call center or the head of teck lasts down a mine) unite to demand better working conditions or govt policies that benefit more than a narrow plutocracy oh heaven forbid!!!

We all know nobody is going to jail for this. It's almost impossible to go to jail in Canada, so lets not get hung up on jail. Fines, however, should be levied for at laest 12 million dollars for everday of this illegal and stupid strike.
The BCTF could have waited until next spring to ask for a raise. That's when more money will be available.
Class size is not to be part of this , that is up to the School District.
No teachers anywhere have this right. It's only because the NDP gave it to them and then it was taken away that they are so hopping mad about.
They are aslo mad that they didn't influence the last election. They wated 15 million of there members dues.
There should be Right to Paycheque legislation in BC.

A lot of bottom feeders just do not understand how Union Democracy works. Unlike parlamentary democracy that works from the top down,(the leader dictates and the followers obey)
while Union Democracy works from the bottom up and the leaders obey.
A 90% plus vote for Job Action means that the leader must obey the membership's dictate to inact job action. It's the job they are elected to do.
So far the Supreme Court of BC. has not ordered the Teachers to discontinue their protest action.
Don't expect the media talking-heads and the entrepreneurial talk show hosts to do other than obey their corporate masters.

Why the quotation marks around "illegal strike". It IS illegal, by definition. That doesn't mean it isn't the right thing to do. Legality and morality are two separate matters.

" All credibility went out the window with the public when she did that. Only the extreme lefties could support such nonsense."

Only on the right wing media, who mourned out loud when Ronnie Reagan died. and beat the drums of war going to Iraq, the same media that props up people like Peter Warren and Michael Smith . yea your hero's . Little Mickey Smith voted Corp Media hoar of the year. If you like Ginny or not she's right. The Government has no way to enforce this bogus
law, laws that are created over night to deny rights are begging to be broken. Only the weak bow to repressive laws, you may thank some lefties for fighting for you one day. If needed I will provide a list of laws created by the so called militants that have benefited even ilk like Ron Irwin.

And Jimmy as far as the last election be careful. BC Libs got 46 % of the vote.
NDP got 42 % and the Greens took 9%. More people voted against Gordo that for him.
even in his own riding he lost the popular vote. He is not a Mike Harris and lacks popular
support. Just a break down of the results in Gordo's riding. Can you say Recall, if a few ridings
change hands so does the balance of power.

Gordo Campbell BC Libs 45.98 %
Damian Kettlewell Greens 15.12 %
Mel Lehan NDP 37.70 %
,

Amazing Ron Erwin, you would fine teachers 12 million a day in order to send them back to dysfunctional classroom but won't encourage the government to spend a cent to restore minimum levels of service. Do you actually read what you write??

Liberty has never come from the government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of government. The history of liberty is the history of resistance. The history of liberty is a history of the limitation of governmental power, not the increase of it.
--Woodrow Wilson

The strange thing about all this rhetoric is that the people of BC, through their school boards, hire 42,000 educational specialists who have, through education and experience, declared a number of shortcomings in the system. These shortcomings include overcrowded and underfunded classrooms, shortages of service levels to disadvantaged students etc.
When these specialists point out the deficiencies the government discounts their expertise and dedication and wants to send them back to work in the dysfunctional system. Thats all right if we were making plywood but our mandate is to educate your children. Some of you are more concerned with scoring political points and ignore the issues. God help us if we decide to turn to Mike Dejong and Gordon Campbell to decide the education service levels for our kids. Next they will be deciding how operating rooms should be run....OOPS they already did that didn't they??

Well there is no doubt that the BCTF must be given some sort of penalty for defiance of the law.

But we need to get back to basics and find out what the funding problems might be. The taxpayer is putting a significant amount of money into the system. Where is the money going. Every year government puts more in, and property school taxes are increasing. Is there waste in the system? Are we paying too much for administration? Are there line funding items embedded in the system that should not be included? ... and so forth.

Reading herein that these are shortages of desks and text books seems surreal such items ought to be in surplus, certainly large sums of dollars are allocated for these things.

The whole matter of class size is a moot point. What seems to be the issue is the need for the classroom teacher to deal with the special needs kids that apparently adds a huge burden to the teaching task including a problem of control.

Certainly the current education budget allocated is above average and in theory should pay the needs. I have yet to see or hear dtailed discussion on funding levels or allocation. Neither the BCTF or Government can make any assessment until the funding question is reviewed.

I do get a kick out of reading your stuff, prof. Keep it coming.

The public education system is NOT broken. It doesn't need a total overhaul. It needs to be funded and it needs for the people we elect not to act in treasonous ways towards it and the rest of our common assets, such as health care etc.

If as you say, the BCTF must be fined, then the judge also has the option of fining 100 dollars a day, or some other small amount. If the court puts onerous fines on the BCTF then, in my view, they are using their power to take away democracy.

Sounds good, Prof.

So who then, if not government, will wield the power needed to take on the Corporations?

I don't know, nor much care about this figure. Check out voter participation rates in this country generally, federally and provincially.

I haven't spent the time to find out what they were last elections, but they have been in consistent decline since 1984, paralleling the rise of the Lean and Mean World Order in my view, and reflecting the diminishing faith people actually put in the ruling class dominated and controlled electoral system.

Trade union systems as well, and participation rates, likely reflecting their declining effectiveness as trusted working class instruments, and following a number of significan betrayals, FOR example, Solidarity 1983 in BC, from which the labour movement is yet to recover credibility, again just my view, have paid a similar price and crisis of confidence.

Check out: http://www.elections.bc.ca/elections/vpstats01/vpstats010516/html#A

http://www.cric.ca/en_html/opinion/opv2n39.html
#facts

There is a general crisis of all democratic systems within current capitalism.

First of all, let me tell you that 100% of teachers in my town showed up for picket duty today and CUPE members continue to refuse to cross. I cannot believe the amount of food delivered to the picket line!! Someone must have told the public that the way to a teacher's heart is through his/her stomach lolol. We also had support from about 99% of the people who passed us, including students.

Now some people on here (including the Honorable Mr. de Jong according to his interview on Global last night) appear to need some help understanding the definition of contract. I found this on dictionary.com

contract: An agreement between two or more parties, especially one that is written and enforceable by law. See Synonyms at bargain.

Hmmmmm. How do you figure, given this definition, that the teachers have a contract? It does say the two parties have to come to an agreement, after all, and how do you do that when the so-called "contract" is legislated??? That being said, this is NOT an illegal job action. Then again, I still dare the government to start arresting Jinny Sims and the rest of us. That will bring on the general strike even faster and will bring us back to school that much faster too!!

Isn't anyone curious about where Mr. Campbell and Ms. Bond are??? We were wondering about that on the picket line today. We figure that Mike de Jong must have made a huge mistake at some point in his political career and is being punished for that now lol. His inability to establish eye contact while spouting his lies makes my skin crawl. Shirley probably isn't allowed to talk to the press anymore since she is having trouble coming up with something other than "I'm so disappointed". Besides, there are many of us who remember her singing a completely different tune BEFORE she moved to Victoria therefore she was either lying to us in Prince George OR she is just reading her lines provided by Gordo. We (those of us on the picket lines) are thinking that Gordo's intent here is to play "good cop/bad cop". Mike de Jong is the bad cop and Gordo will sweep in and save the day when he FINALLY agrees to actually negotiate a contract with teachers. Maybe his popularity will rise a point or two then.

some food for thought:

"We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was "legal" and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was 'illegal.'"
--Martin Luther King, Jr., "Letter from Birmingham Jail," Why We Can't
Wait, 1963

"Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both.Â*Â* The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."
--Frederick Douglas

"It is a just person who disobeys an unjust law." - Plato (427-347 BC)

"Non-cooperation with injustice is a sacred duty." - Mahatma Gandhi
(1869-1948)

"It is your moral duty and obligation to disobey an unjust law!" - Dr
Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

De Jongs strong point yesterday seemed to be that the teachers were breaking their contract. Now the definition of a contract used to be an agreement between two parties. Legislating a contract that is not agreed to is like legislating the pi = 3. Nothing illegal about it, just assinine.

Let's get the kids back to school. There's no doubt, that's where the teachers want to be.

Lobby for REAL contract negotiation.

"The teachers are ready to talk, 24-7"

Well done, Jinny! We WILL stay the course, 24-7!!!

That second link to federal voter participation stats should read:

http://www.cric.ca/en_html/opinion/opv2n39.html#facts

The closer the teachers actually get to paying a fine, the more emphatic their support will be, because it will show that they were willing to pay an actual price for what they believed in. It will be hard for the courts to raise the HEU price of over $150,000-in terms of 'precedent' and 'overkill'.

The public will see that the teacher's have been fined and are willing to take the hit. An actual economic payment was made. Bona fide value is assigned to the protest.

Campbell et al are not very good poker players.
Once the teachers 'get the stage' as protesting for the good of students and paying an actual price, if he doesn't move in with an offer on wages, I would really have to consider this of the dumb and dumber variety of leadership.

Once the judge makes an Order and the teachers are fined, jailed etc., and than they defy it, Campbell should advance an offer of 1.5%,2%, 2.5% over three on wages. He isn't being weak when he does this, he is taking the bull by the horns in the midst of chaos and showing leadership. He would also steal the teachers limelight and be seen as legitimate.

The first 1.5% kicking in after the time of the wage freeze mandate. The first year's wages will already be paid for by the end of this week (in salary savings).

If the teachers reject the 1.5% year one, 2.0% year 2, and 2.5% year three, and continue to stay out, than some of the support for them will be scraped away as parents spend about $500,000 per day out of pocket for additional costs as a consequence of the strike. The percentage of parents who are being hit with this cost is just sufficient to begin to turn against the teachers if the right political cards are played. These parents if they support the teachers won't turn away from them so long as nothing is put on the table.

If the teacher's take the money and go back to work they will have saved the taxpayer's money, not actually have lost that much real income (taxation rates), but will lose a little support (but only a little).

Both sides can agree to negotiate the classroom conditions or go to arbitration on these will a conclusion expected by Christmas (New Year and all that).

If the government holds the line on everything as zero----Campbell will be the one who gets busted.

Mike de Jong is rattled because he has listend to Steely Dan's Can't Buy a Thrill--Dirty Work

"I'm a fool to do your dirty work -oh yeah"