One of my three went on to earn a Sheepskin.
The other two stayed "Blue Collar" after
graduating.
So far three grandkids are in the trades.
They consider their uncle's time earning his
degree as time wasted.
With reluctance, I have to agree with them.

As tuition fees increase it is going to be harder for traditional universities to attract people for 4 or 5 year degrees. When a student can take an 18 month course at BCIT and walk into a $60,000 job, why would he/she go into debt over 5 years at UBC or SFU?

Tbarnston: Colleges don't just run university transfer programs. My little brother is an apprentice industrial electrician at a pulp plant, and he needed 3 years of full time training at North Island College to get that job.

Enrollment is probably down due to demographics, resulting in fewer students available.
Also, traded are becoming more attractive as a career. I doubt it's any more complicated than that, although any excuse to rip into the Govt. is a more popular activity.

I was going to apply for a Masters program at SFU a number of years ago. I took a few courses to get me into the swing of things before applying, but then the Liberals got in and tuition skyrocketed. I decided it just wasn't worth it - I had a decent job that I enjoyed and didn't want a huge debt. Simple economics for me - too high tuition plus too high risk that it will be a meaningless piece of paper equals easy decision to stay put in my job. The love of learning can always be fulfilled in other ways.

By the way, I tell all my nieces and nephews that although I enjoyed university immensely, they're much better off in the trades if all they're looking for is a good paying job.

Well Ron, after reading a comment like mhoule's you can't say the increase in tution costs isn't a factor... and yeah, you can blame the government for that.

The real story here is tuition. It it too damn expensive.

The real value of university or college is what you study. Hey, take cultural anthropology if that's what expands your mind - just don't expect a high-paying job. If you want a career, take something that gets you into the "white collar" trades (engineering, computer science, law school, education).

verso' as you know, a student only pays a small portion of what the actual costs are.
Do you think tuition should be free ? We could probably do this, but if a student doesn't have some sort of investment in their education it would be like a free bar at a wedding. People don't even finish their drink and leave it sitting half full on a table somewhere and go and order another drink.
Charge $1.00 per drink, as a friend of mine recently did, and no drinks are wasted.
Aboriginal people get free education, so I suppose we are doing some good.

This is good news. There are far too many people languishing in universities at taxpayer's expense (see: cultural anthropology) because they've been brainwashed into thinking that a degree is the only way to go. Nothing wrong with getting a trade, making some money, and going back later if you are so inclined.

"Do you think tuition should be free ? "

Yes, but realistically that's not going to happen.

Education is not a free drink at a wedding. It doesn't need to be purchased to be valued. There are many students whose parents pay for their tuition and one shouldn't assume because of that it's not valued. Sure, if education was free some might not appreciate it, but those already students exist under our current model. In my experience, those who don't value their education don't go far, anyhow.

Back to my initial point, it's not likely that post secondary education will be free, in my lifetime, so until then we pay. My beef with the Liberals isn't that they removed the freeze, it's how they did -- without limits. As a result tuition sky-rocketed. It was too much, too soon and we're seeing the effects of that now.

sorry, should read: but those students already exist under our current model.

Cause you get paid crap after you get out...so what's the point?

Higher costs + active local labour market + demographic change = fewer students

I value university education highly. The role of the university has changed greatly over the last century.

University used to be a place for elites to pursue research. Now additionally, it provides training to help people better position themselves in the workforce. I think the university has gone through growing pains, transforming from an elite feudal institution to a modern, factory that mass produces educated graduates.

I also suspect that, since the end of WWII, the university has an additional role: artificially lowering unemployment rates by encouraging young people to stay out of the labour force.
Which reminds me of my favourite meaning for "PhD": "Postponing Hard Decisions" =^)

I think that primary and secondary education has suffered from a middle-class bias from the teachers & administrators, resulting in over-emphasis on the importance of university. It would be great to see some pride return to the practice of the trades, technical education and craftmanship.

I spent 6 years of my life living in poverty and enduring the physical and emotional burn out that comes from pursuing two arts degrees (B.A. and M.A.). Six years after graduation, it seems that neither of these degrees has led (or will lead) to a job above the menial clerical/receptionist type roles which too many ‘educated’ people have had fight over because, let’s face it folks, there is no meaningful employment without the right connections. Employers today don’t value education as much as they value your relationship to the boss, plain and simple. And how does one hope to make connections? Well, suffice to say that it ain’t in a classroom trying your hardest to get through next week’s assignment and next month’s rent! So, with the exorbitant cost of tuition today coupled with the slim employment prospects after all the blood, sweat and tears, no wonder more people are questioning the sanity of pursuing a post secondary education. Recently a couple of highschoolers were in my neighbourhood doing door to door fundraising for their university education. My reply, when I answered the door, was ‘save your money, boys’.

The most effective and efficient form of education is called "reading." It's great that the BC Liberals have allowed tradespeople to write exams without being forced to waste huge amounts of time warming a seat in a classroom, going over material they're already intimately familiar with. The same concept should be applied to other areas of learning. I didn't vote for the Liberals. I voted Green. But I support some of the Liberals' education initiatives.

Different people learn at different rates and by different methods. A classroom environment panders to the lowest common denominator by forcing highly-motivated fast learners to go at the same rate as unmotivated slow learners.

This is not sour grapes. I was a straight A student in the technical subjects during my years in the formal education system. But the amount of useful technical knowledge I acquired in the formal education system was trivial compared to what I've learned by reading industry journals, technical application notes, free online patent databases etc.

On-the-job one-on-one mini-tutorials from colleagues in industry have also be useful. And I've learned a lot by tinkering in my own well-equipped basement workshop.

Yeah but try applying for a job with "Well-read" on you resume.

This is exactly why I applauded the BC Liberals' moves to expand the right to challenge courses by writing exams without wasting years warming a seat in a classroom surrounded by slow learners. As an employer, I'd hire someone who scored 95% on a well-supervised and relevant exam without warming a seat in a classroom before hiring someone who scored 60% on the exact same exam after warming a seat in a classroom for 5 years. I'm impressed by motivated fast learners who don't need to be spoon-fed.

My younger brother worked in a metal fabrication shop for a few years. When welders applied for a job and waved their "Welding Tickets" around, the supervisor would just sort of yawn and roll his eyes. Then he'd lead the applicant onto the shop floor, sit him or her in front of a welder, hand over a couple of chunks of scrap metal and say "Weld these together."

After the applicant was done, the supervisor placed the metal in a large bench vice, picked up a massive sledgehammer and started pounding-away at the weld. If the weld broke, the applicant would not be hired, regardless of whether he or she did or did not have a "Welding Ticket." If the weld survived the supervisor's assault, the applicant would be hired.

Industry-administered real-life exams work very well when the person administering the exam has a solid understanding of the issues due to personal experience as a front-line worker. When the person doing the hiring has no front line experience, only an MBA or somesuch, then everything goes all to hell. They have no way of knowing who is or is not technically competent, so they rely mostly on credentialism. This is one of the reasons why small organizations where people with front-line work experience do the hiring are always more innovative than large organizations where clueless MBAs do the hiring.

Cycling; great comments man. I used to have a shop teacher, a cooking teacher amd a data processing instructor who did not have teaching degress. Now that I think of it the mechanic who taught auto repair. This was in Alberta in the 50-60's before teachers took over education.

When the BC Liberals suspended the freeze on tuition, they said that government shouldn't have any say on what tuitions were at BC's publicly funded universities. Tuition skyrocketed and they didn't seem to care much, and even scrapped some grant money going to needy students. Up comes the election, and now they think it's important to only allow tuition to go up at at the rate of inflation. What a joke. Who knows what these flip-flop BC Liberals will do next. Maybe they'll sell SFU to Kinder Morgan.

Two points.

1. Too many students enter university without regard to that famous Steven Covey principle: "Begin with the end in mind". Thus we produce 20 times as many English and PoliSci majors than we need.

2. Universities that jack up tuitions after students have entered the program and are half-done, are acting unfairly. The Liberals would have eliminated most of the backlash from their tuition-raising policies if they'd applied the increases only to new students, not the ones who had already entered the system.

Too many people, both in and out of education, confuse ends and means. Education has too often been sold as a chore that must be put up with in order to gain some sort of guaranteed meal ticket. Wrong, wrong, wrong!

Further, there is a significant difference between education and training. Education broadens the mind, and engenders critical thought, tolerance for ambiguity, and sensitivity to human struggle and conflict, wherever they may be found. Training gives us techniques and skills, a much narrower kind of instruction.

Knowledge, wherever gleaned, is valuable. It often happens that incredibly knowledgeable, bright, interesting people can be found on a university campus. Course work may or may not be drudgery (depending on its relevance, the skill and insight of the instructor, and the aims of the students), but the idea that there should be some kind of monetary reward that is based more on the time spent "warming" a desk as opposed to genuinely expanding one's mind (along with the minds of one's fellow students) is simply wrong.

However, employers and consumers need some kinds of reassurance that the people that they're hiring or buying from have some kind of competence. So far, despite considerable evidence to the contrary, degrees and diplomas seem to serve that need. Insofar as they do so, they're going to be valued. I'd rather see a doctor who actually has finished medical school. I'd rather my kids be taught by someone who has teacher training. I need reassurance, too, because I can't be expert in everything and judge every worker in every field's competence for myself.

We certainly don't need some kind of snobbery about university educations. Everyone who works contributes to society and should be recognized for it, both in esteem and monetary reward.

It is worrisome to completely deregulate so many aspects of qualifying for specific occupations. As a consumer I have had to beware enough about incompetent doctors, venal lawyers, shifty businessmen, sly car dealers, ineffective teachers, and so on. To imagine that allowing virtually any self-proclaimed "expert" to practice specific trades/professions/occupations is much scarier. This concept of self-proclamation as easily applies to some of the fly-by-night colleges of this and that that have sprung up in a more deregulated environment under the Liberals.

As I see it, we need to continually strike a balance between the need for innovation and the need for some kind of reliable meaning in the diplomas, etc., that employers and consumers rely upon. And we should not confuse education with training, or means and ends.

Cycling commuter I think you are a Liberal, or perhaps a red tory who has confused El Gordo's government with being conservative.

In my view, making it easier to get a trades ticket is about the worst approach to take.

Yes, you get instant carpenters who've learned how to quickly pound nails into a new roof, but what's that poor schmuck do when the housing boom sags?

I can imagine as an employer you see all kinds of benefits in instant trades people as it means there is absolutely no pressure on you to ensure apprenticeship programs are continued.

I can imagine if the Tyee runs an article on immigrants coming into BC to fill trades jobs that are unfilled, you would praise the relaxed immigration rules because, again, you didn't spend one penny toward their training.

Students don't warm seats if they are serious about an education whether its to complete a degree or an apprenticsship.

I am neither an apprentice nor and academic, but I find your "warming "seats" comment a bit insulting.

Personally, I think that trades people should be tested on basic math skills and a few other academic subjects. Some standard health and safety programs that just might save a limb or a life, might also be worth studying, even in your dream of drive-through trades tickets.

Quite frankly, that gift from the province wasn't handed to the apprentice/students, but to employers like yourself who are happy with the hammer bangers.

The apprentice has been effectively ripped off because his ability, unless he is wealthy, to advance is in the hands of his employer rather than within his own control.

Hey maybe you could get the education ministry to launch junior apprenticeship classes so elementary age kids can be ready to go to work when they are 12, which just happens to be the legal age here in El Gordo's BC.

Why spoil those kid's minds with the arts, eh?

Ron, you said, "Enrollment is probably down due to demographics, resulting in fewer students available." In this statement, you used the word "probably" which shows that you are just assuming something to be true. If you want to convince us that you know what you are talking about, then you should support your arguement with some evidence. Doing that will require the ability to do some research and an education, not just some training. If you need further amplification, you should read "The Logic of Education" by Hirst and Peters. One quote in the book you should consider is "To prevent understanding and knowledge at any point must necessarily be antieducational. It is for this reason that much that falls under the term 'indocrination' must be excluded."

The more advanced the society, the more educated the citizens. The sophistication of a civilization is not measured by the number of plumbers, electricians, or airplane mechanics. When I had a chance to stay at a sawmill near Williams Lake and work into an apprediceship, my father, a grade 11 grad, told me that a year at university is worth more than a year in a sawmill.
It was the best advice I ever received and I
love my father for it.

Thanks Dad

I

Hey cycling commuter maybe those welders got their tickets warming books instead of a chair??? The welding tickets are actual weld tests the red seal is a written exam and to become a journeyman you have written exams and practical tests, starting at level C-B-A.

You don't get welding tickets reading a book it is a hands on trade in any Province including alberta, you don't get to test unless you have the pressure tickets they require and welders can often be testing for days to get on a job, doing many different procedures. Once on the job the welds are x rayed at the specified percentage, often 100%. How are you going to learn to mirror weld in a book?

Pipefitters local 170 in Vancouver sent about thirty of their welders down to California after passing a Bechtel procedure to weld in a Nuclear power plant, after the turnaround was completed the client wrote a letter to 170 thanking them, saying these were some of the most skilled welders they had ever seen, not one repair in three months. The same has been said about Boilermakers.

You just don't get this kind of hands on skill from a book nor are your welds tested with a sledge hammer, what were they building dumpsters?

Factors to look at:
Cross province enrollment: With raising tuition fees, has this decreased price shoppers.
High School Graduation Levels?
http://www.bced.gov.bc.ca/reporting/enrol/results/enrol/prov.pdf
-Lower in last two years. However, two years ago, an influx of students from Ontario, called the double cohort with the end of OAC (grade 13), may have covered up the balance.
-Higher demand from the skills sector. High summer wages and strong employment lure back to school trends.

Allan el gordo was reacting to the lobbying of the nonunion contractors union, phil hochstein and the independant contracters association, who gave the liberals a lot of money to get elected then re-elected. Grease the right palms and guess what?

Gotta wonder how the cayman accounts are doing eh, what was it 8 billion went into foreign bank accounts last year from Canada, that could be a lot of favours bought and paid for, call me a cynic but hey ignore the rhetoric and look at what is happening.

North' I am sure you are trying to put down my opinion the same way many do. The method is this. Take an obvious fact and ask the presenter to prove it with backup facts. That will delay you accepting it, but eventually you will accept it and we will never here from you again.
I just went through this with the facts regarding the blame game for the hurricane Katrina. Once the facts came out for all to see, my detractors crawled under a rock somewhere never to be heard again on this subject.
It doesn't take a degree to see that people are having fewer children now than in the past, does it ?
I am not going to your time with endless charts and graphs supporting my statement.
Do your own research, I don't care what you think.

Don't worry about RE North of Hope: join C.I.R.E. today and receive 5000 bonus points. I'm going to use the notwithstanding clause in my membership and issue the following:

RE,

Your criticisms of education, while predictable, lead me to believe that you’ve received no formal education. If, in a post-secondary environment, you are asked to submit a research paper, some general rules must be adhered to. For one, a hypothesis is stated, with the body of the paper dedicated to support said hypothesis. If you were to turn in a paper with a stated hypothesis with no supporting evidence, you’d fail. I you then proceeded to tell the professor that he or she should do the research to prove you right or wrong, you’d be laughed at or perhaps even put on academic probation. This has proven to be your MO, hardly credibly in any sense. Also, what you do RE is make opinions. The term opinion is important because I think that you truly believe that you are making assertions. There’s a huge difference between opinion and assertion. Opinions cannot be supported by fact, assertion can.

Okay, it's an opinion. Based on fact.

What fact RE?

Oh, no, let me guess, I should look up the facts behind your opinions.

Debating with RE reminds me of one my favourite Monty Python skits:

"This week, at the Red Rock Casino and Show Bar! Live and in person, the stand up comedy of Ron Erwin. Two performances back to back, because you won't believe what you heard the first time!

You'll hear some of his best impersonations! Jean Chretien: When you have a fact, it is a fact and that you cannot argue the fact. And that's a fact!

Timeless one liners: 99% of the worlds resources are still intact!

The Hilarious: In the 50's and 60's things were great in Alberta, until teachers took over education!

You'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll roll on the floor doubled up! Don't miss it!

Ron,

I find the analogy you gave yesterday between drinks at a bar and education somewhat faulty. You ask whether tuition should be free and then answer the following:

"We could probably do this, but if a student doesn't have some sort of investment in their education it would be like a free bar at a wedding. People don't even finish their drink and leave it sitting half full on a table somewhere and go and order another drink."

Whether or not a student pays for their tuition does not bear on whether or not the student values it. The student pays for a free education with the time and effort spent completing their program. If a student doesn't take their education seriously, they will soon fail and be asked to leave their program (and not come back). Also, a completed degree has monetary value to a student because a student is, on average, able to earn a higher salary after graduation as compared to someone who has no formal post-secondary education.

A student gains nothing from partially fulfilling degree requirements and then getting kicked out, unlike drinking half a drink.

Mbraun and Club: Here's an unattributed quote I found on another thread.

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. These are things we don't know we don't know. Ah, but what of the unknown knowns, the things we know but don't know we know? And what’s worse, what about the known unknowables, the things we know but won’t/can’t acknowledge we know? They are the scariest facts of all, since at any moment they may pop up and bite us on the ass. Hard.

Ahhh, to live the live with the certainties of the troll.

scylla' there are things that you know that I don't know. There are things that I know that you don't know. There are things that Bill knows that I don't know. There are thongs that you know that Bill doesn't know. I like thongs, do you ?

...There once was a fellow named Ron
Of corsetts and lace he was fond
But on Saturday night
When the moon light was right
He fancied himself in a thong....

There once was a guy named Club
He blew a fellow named Dub
He thought if felt great
And broke through the gate
And decided to join my fine club

There were two dudes who couldn't be civil
It turned the threads into drivel
The rest of us cried
put the piss match aside
and keep your tempers more level.

Good article Crawford, unfortunately the threads deteriorated. I am confused, the article refers to an enrollment drop in "colleges". Commentors immediately went off on a tangent regarding the usefulness of a "university" education. Colleges are not universities although some are desperately trying to become universities. Colleges are the institutions that historically have offered short cycle education focused on the labour market and the community, the very stuff that you guys are saying is so necessary. They were not developed as universities, junior or otherwise and thereford were never intended to cater to the "university bound or inclined" crowd unless to give those who did not make the first cut a second kick at the cat. They are not lesser institutions, they are different and have served, very successfully a totally different market, the non-university bound.

Crawford's serious questions have been lost in the comments above. If indeed cost and funding is a factor in the decline in college enrollment (not addressing university here), and I agree that they are, then we are surely losing as these institutions prepare (skill and educate) people for the long term workplace. We will indeed have returned to the period when the university bound went off to the ivory towers while all others got by without more than basic skills if they finish high school(keep in mind that colleges have traditionally provided trades training, technical propgrams etc. which are the expensive and specialized programs that are refered to in the article). This is not the way to build a solid 21st century economy or to have a capable competitive workforce or citizenry
--very, very worrisome... read Crawford's article carefully please!

Just having graduated my second (and final, thank God)child through the public education system has proven that we have some serious flaws. My daughter was not the "school type" and as such was humiliated, ostracized and minimized by her "teachers" while they spent all their time with those who were going on to "university". The Grade school system is failing most of our children miserably. We need plumbers, glaziers, auto tecnicians, welders and carpernters. We are graduating social workers, basket weavers and lawyers. I see precious seats and resources taken up by people who go back for more and more "special courses" and more useless letters after their names.

My daughter was shuffled off to one side and patted on the head instead of being offered assistance and an introduction to a good trade (which she wanted). What passed for a counseller suggested she go "to Wal Mart" or "something like that", when I suggested a trade, she shrugged and said "well, I guess you can do that but I don't have anything on it"

If we dont wake up soon, we will all be sitting around wondering who's going to fix the car, or the furnace. You wont be able to get a house built but you will be able to get a web site built.

The degree holders of various kinds form a sort of unofficial club, steveoverhere. Their objective is to make it illegal for us dummies to do anything unless someone officially appointed says it is okay, and checks it out before and after we do it.

Failing that, we can always hire the professional at one hundred bucks an hour, so he/she can hire your unlettered daughter at eight bucks to do it.

J R Saul warns us that the best way to control people is to form them into the smallest groups possible, giving them the illusion of controllimg their own destinies, thus inducing them to fight for their own interests without regard for those of the larger community.

Sort of sounds like the neocon's "free market", eh? and so their distaste for Big unions, Big Gov't. Big corporations then??? Uh, noooo, THAT'S different.

Steveoverhere, that school counsellor sounds like a real winner.

I simply can't understand why anyone in that position isn't fully aware of the shortage of trades people in BC and the potential for real careers for the people he/she is supposed to be helping.

But to suggest to anyone they look to Walmart or other dead-end retail employers for a future tells me this so-called counsellor ought to find a new job or at the very least take some counselling.

They should not allow deadwood to collect in such positions, but then it does seem about par for this government's approach to education.

Twenty five years ago I was told by a school counsellor that if I didn't go to university, I would never get a good job. Thus, I was crazy for wanting to get a skilled trade. A co-worker had the same thing happen to him five years ago. While his friends went into debt to go to university, he got an apprenticeship as a machinist and now, as a 23 year old journeyman machinist he makes over $60 k per year with no student loans to pay off. Meanwhile, many of his friends with degrees are working at restaurants for $11 per hour and trying to pay off their loans. The rest just went back to university to get Master's Degrees because a Bachelor's Degree is next to useless.

The problem in North America is that people without degrees are treated as if they were a lower class of people. This is typified by the school cousellors who know absolutely nothing about the trades and feel that only people with learning disabilities should bother going in that direction. In Europe, skilled tradespeople are held in much higher esteem because most people there realize the benefit to society provided by people who work with their hands. For whatever reason they haven't been as indoctrinated as North Americans into thinking that a degree is the only road to success.

Stan, with that unfortunate but common choice of words, you've just unconsciously supported a stereotype many people with degrees hold (perhaps just as unconsciously) re blue-collar workers - that of gangs of guys with picks-and-shovel.

Surgeons "work with their hands" too, but while we've been taught to recognise the education and training of the surgeon, similar recognition is rarely given to the tradesman, who may have acquired her/his expertise/skills obtainable only through many years of hard experience.

I won't belabour that point, so re school counselors, IMHO, this important job should be given to people who, besides academic qualifications - since they should know what higher education means - should also have some real work experience (other than McJobs) and ideally experience with family life as well.

As Stan has just illustrated, this job, which often is presented with the last chance to reach a still approachable kid, is far too important to be given to a person who has til then shown only the ability to pass exams.

I might add that in my experience, there are too many "educated fools" out there who cannot get beyond the theory and cant they've learned in University. Having an education is only the first step in proving you've learned to think.

Well, that's my rant re the drift towards the "meritocratic" society we were warned about in the Sixties, and I hope you "lettered" folks out there recognise it's not directed against higher education, per se.

Stan wrote,

Then you contradict yourself...

Obviously, if the story you tell is true, then the person without the degree is being rewarded with the ability to choose where to live and what type of vacation to take.

The university graduate making $11 an hour and trying to pay off his/her loans is the one sharing the crappy apartment or basement suite.

But at least that person is "smart" enough to realize why they are there. They are the "educated fools" that Scylla writes about. ;)

Anyways, if we believe that the function of university is to be a means of getting a high paying job, then we are just going to frustrate ourselves.

Remember, learning for the sake of learning is intrinsically human. Universities offer an avenue to discuss and explore ideas that are out of everyday experience.

But, if we just put it into dollars and "sense", it is far cheaper just to go out and buy a good book to read and try and to discuss it at the next patio party.

Do people realyy think they will be still physically able to pound nails, sclep lumber/drywall all their lives?

Why do you think Wayne Gretzky "hawks" arthritus medicine?

Also industry always crys for skilled trades people during the boom times, but do they give a s... when the boom ends and the ttadespeople are out of work. You can also look forward to having to migrate to where the jobs are across Canada.

...there is a significant difference between education and training. Education broadens the mind, and engenders critical thought, tolerance for ambiguity, and sensitivity to human struggle and conflict, wherever they may be found. Training gives us techniques and skills, a much narrower kind of instruction.

I've always hated such words as "education" and "training" because they suggest a largely artificial hierarchical structure. I much prefer "acquiring knowledge" because it suggests a more natural and realistic networking type structure.

...there are things that you know that I don't know. There are things that I know that you don't know.

Ron's comment is more in touch with reality.

Knowledge of social issues is extremely important. But do we really need to gather together in a centralized physical building to discuss social issues? Are we not discussing such issues at this very moment on the internet? Can we ever do a proper job of thoroughly discussing social issues in the extremely elitist environment of physical university classrooms?

A physically centralized university forum automatically excludes many people who live in small, remote towns. Even if university tuition and accommodation were free, people in small towns who must support dependents cannot easily move close to physical universities,. Their voices are not likely to be a direct part of university social discussions. An online discussion forum such as thetyee.ca is much more socially inclusive due to an absence of physical, financial and other barriers.

My only beef about thetyee.ca is the lack of ability to go back and correct errors after clicking on "Post Comment." I hope someday thetyee.ca can use the excellent Ultimate Bulletin BoardTM 6.1.0.3 software that's used at http://www.rabble.ca to allow corrections. This is not an endorsement of rabble.ca views - just an endorsement of the software they're using!

I didn't go to university for a job, I went for an education.** Anyone who does otherwise needs to re-think their priorities.

That being said, I was close to starving and/or homeless several times as a student, worked full-time during parts of school, and I'm still paying down some pretty hefty loans. That was just before the BC government decided to massively increase tuition.

I think that higher tuition could definitely be a big reason behind declining enrolments. I don't know if I would have been able to hack another 20-25000 over the course of a four-year degree. When coupled with rising demand for tradespeople and skilled workers, I can see why people are going different routes.

Regards,
Anthony

** I'm sure lots of you thought, "yeah, there's another worthless liberal arts grad." For those who are curious, I do have an arts degree and I did get a very good job before I even finished school. Lucky, I guess?

I'd rather see a doctor who actually has finished medical school.

I'd rather see the doctor who has the highest real-world success rate, regardless of how many letters they have after their name.

The word "finished" provides a clue to one of the sources of our disagreement. No rational person can ever be "finished" learning. Lifelong learning is becoming more and more essential. If we did all that learning in an inefficient classroom environment, there would be no time to apply our knowledge to productive ends.

My uncle is a heart surgeon. He says some heart surgeons (himself included) have done 20 years or more of open heart surgery without losing any patients on the operating table. Other heart surgeons with exactly the same academic credentials routinely lose 20% of their patients on the operating table. It's not a matter of the surgeons with a high kill rate taking-on difficult cases. If anything, incompetent surgeons shy-away from difficult cases because they know they can't even properly handle simple cases.

An incompetent pediatric heart surgeon in Winnipeg killed about 10 children before he was stopped. The surgeon's academic credentials were in order. In Vancouver, a dentist killed ten patients in a row before anyone noticed. The dentist was using the wrong drill to prepare patients' jaws for implants. The drill vibration caused cerebral hemorrhaging, leading to death. The dentist's academic credentials were all in order.

My oldest brother builds log homes in the Yukon. Some years ago, his chainsaw kicked back and almost cut his hand off while he was working alone in the woods. He used his belt as a tourniquet and drove to the nearest small town with his hand hanging by a few tendons. There was a General Practitioner (GP) on duty in the small town. The GP had no formal training in microsurgery, but he had a strong interest in the subject. He had read many journals describing procedures. He sewed my brother's hand back on and reconnected blood vessels and nerves. The operation was a success. My brother regained most of the function of his hand. If the GP had refused to operate as a result of credentialism and had insisting on airlifting my brother to Vancouver, then the hand most likely would have been lost. Time was of the essense.

Up until recently, when a person had a heart attack in Ottawa, the 911 operator would tell the person who made the call to just wait right there with the patient until an ambulance arrived. The heart attack survival rate was less than 3%. In Edmonton, the 911 operator would coach the caller over the phone on how to apply CPR to the patient while waiting for an ambulance to arrive. This raised the survival rate to about 9%. In Seattle, most of the population has basic training in CPR. Heart attack survival rates there are over 30%. Automatic computerized defibrillators are now being made available in public places and private homes where there is a high risk of heart attack. With these machines, survival rates can be as high as 90%. So if you take the Ottawa credentialism approach of waiting for highly trained experts to attend to heart attack victims, you get a 3% survival rate. If you move-away from credentialism and equip minimally trained members of the public with the appropriate equipment, you get a 90% survival rate.

Scylla:

The choice of words is intentional because I have occasionally experienced the snobbery of people who have degrees. Unfortunately, people are still stereotyped by their occupation and education.

Moat:

Yes, the story is true. However, I don’t think that I’m being contradictory. It’s our society that’s contradictory. Young people are being told that they need to go to university in order to obtain good careers, even though this is not always true. On the other hand, people who are doing well academically are steered away from the trades. Thus the “smart” people spend a good part of their careers paying off student loans, while the “dummies” make money from the time they start their apprenticeships.

Sure, there are people who attend university to seek knowledge for it’s own sake, but that is a luxury most cannot afford.

Remember, this "elitist" environment is often made up of 18 year-olds, fresh out of high school. Someone with some "world" experience has little to worry about. Elitist? Hardly. Not in Canada, yet...

Most people in first and second year courses are dealing with their newly granted freedoms. Mature students who keep up with their readings have little trouble coping in a "university environment."

Hmmmm, are you sure about that? You either want to attend, or you don't. People in "big cities" also have dependents to support and other sacrifices to make.

There is also quality education available in the hinter... er.... heartlands as well. What about UNBC in Prince George?

I'm pleased most of you understood my rant was NOT against higher education. Beyond question many go to university to broaden their mind, or find that has unexpectedly happened.

For many centuries previous to now, Universities taught only what we now call "Liberal Arts". That in turn fostered the explosion in the growth of our modern ideas re human values we hold today, once the tight control over learning had been wrested from the clergy.

A few years back (is it the same today?) a popular discussion among university students was which was more valuable to society - an MBA or a Fine Arts degree with a focus on the humanities?

That question seems to be answered today with the current focus on preparing university graduates for a "job".

Since this attitude obviously favours (reflects?) the preeminence of "the market uber alles" thinking, and what seems to be a current willingness to tightly structure every element of our society, I'm still curious to know what others think of "Meritocracy".

This is odd. UBC increased by 5000 students this year- their tuition is higher than ever. And clearly the standards keep going up and they ahve to turn so many applicants away.

Clearly something else is going on. Have a look across North America- there are all kinds of drops in student enrollment. Everything goes through waves. This has nothing to do with tuition in BC (which is currently near the bottom when ranked by tuition against all universities in canada).