Ed, a while back I believe you cited some sources regarding the concepts behind cost transfer. If I'm not thinking of something else, I wondering if you could post them again.

Regards.

I have to go to do some real work now, but in short, all economic activities are based on 4 physical laws we all learn in highschool, then spend years in universities and professions to dismiss and ignore. Economists are paid big bucks to ignore them and mislead the public.

The First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics and Newton's Laws on Speed and Reaction.

We can neither create, or destroy anything, only convert resources into lower forms. This means that all costs begin and end in infinity and we don't know the real costs of anything, but susbstitute figures taken out of endless columns, and call them "bottom lines". There are no bottom lines in economics.

When economic activities are based on speed, called "growth" in their jargon, they require ever increasing energy inputs to reach miniscule speed increases and these inputs create equal, or increase, or postponed reactions, but ulimtately they will come out, often in the form of disasters .

In other words, there's no such thing in real life as "win-win" , it is always "win-pay"

Try to explain this to economists and politicians.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

I get a chill every time I see the smirking face of Reena Virk's killer on the news or see her childish and macabre scribblings. And believe some people are beyond help, even from the best qualified and intentioned social workers.

I recently met a woman who claimed she was a social worker who worked exclusively with "youth at risk". I mentioned to her that when I was young, in the seventies, we didn't have any youth services to assist us, only hard knocks and jails. The knowledge of the severe consequences of our behaivors more often than not tempered our activities in our effort to avoid the attention of the authorities in our communities. Since Mulroney was PM, we have become overrun with youth based services that have only served the people running the programs and our youth are in an even more precarious situation than ever before, many of them running totally out of control. I asked my friend if she had any thoughts about my perception regarding the implementation of youth services and the twenty years of deteriorating youth related problems since the programs were implemented and any reasons she might offer as to why the social workers were failing in thier objectives. She promptly replied that much of the blame was to fall on Hollywood and other medias like music and video games. I mentioned to her that I grew up with tasteless movies from Hollywood and pathetic lyrics in rock and roll and asked her to dig more profoundly into the real causes of youth gone wild. If there were no youth gone wild, she would be out of a cushy job.

How amazingly cynical Eddy. And how short sighted.
1. social work, particularly dealing with youth/children at risk, is not a "cushy" job. I know that people want to believe that the life of a public servant is all paycheques and vacations, but the reality could not be further from the truth. I know several people working in the child protection system. It is thanksless, demoralizing, painful work.
2. Perhaps one of the reasons that so many of our youth are in such difficulty, is because so many of us received no assistance as youth at risk, and are now passing that legacy on to our children. We reap what we sow.
just a couple of thoughts

Such a sad story. No kid should ever have to endure such pain, and I suspect that all of them were hurting. Sad also to see the obligatory shot at the gov't in the last paragraph. How cheap. This stuff was going on when I was a kid in the 60's and it will be going on one hundred years from now, unfortunately. To blame it on the policies of a particular government is shallow and opportunistic.
P.S. Kudos to the editor for eliminating all signs of DFL.

Eddy
When I was a teenager (late 40s, early 50s) there were social workers; there were lots of troubled families and kids.
BUT there were also lots of opportunities for non-academic kids to make a good living on their own. Not today.
They need lots more training and knowledge on how to navigate the system. And extra help, including from schools, governments, and others.

Sorry for setting the cynical tone of the debate. The person I had met merely operated some kind of drop-in centre and her efforts were that of pretending to "understand" an individual. I suspect her operation simply enabled shabby behavior from her clients. As I mentioned before, Hollywood's been influencing us for a long time. Who do you blame if not the turd dispensers who take your money on the pretense of alleviating the problem?

The life of public servants in this stolen, cursed, by gangsters ruled land is making profit from spreading and covering up lies. To maintain cover up of lies, public servants prefer by own experts' predicted suicide-murders to happen rather than admit, learn from and prevent wrongdoings of social workers, police, crown, judges, politicians. Evidence at http://fcase.myblogsite.com Nobody has time, courage, will, compassion, conscience, shred of humanity to stand up for violated human and constitutional rights of second class citizens and their children. Public servants will reap what they sow. Prisoner of Conscience No. 04746160

thanks Eddy,...I think that this is a very complex issue, which is the responsibility of all citizens.
We will not make progress as a society while we have people living in poverty, with addictions, in abusive situations etc etc.
We need to address the roots of these issues, which we don't do by cutting programs and (as fiat lux stated earlier), transfering the costs onto the shoulders of others. There is a cost to living on planet earth, the corporate goal seems to be to pretend that cost can be reduced or eliminated, but that is false economy. We can pay the piper now or we can pay later. If we put the effort into reducing the afore mentioned societal ills, it will "pay off" later with a reduction of the same. Or not. Our choice.

Canada treatment of youth is dreadful and we will reap the whirlwind. Wait another 5 years, it will be disaster, $6 an hour jobs and $10 meth. will destroy this country.

I see a bleak future where more and more 'youth' fall between the cracks, resorting to crime to supplement meagre incomes. Campbell's golden decade is only for the privledged elites and gullible '2010 is great' types.

We are a wealthy but greedy province and we will pay the price as Rena Virk is just a bellwhether of evil days to come.

I too was a teen in the 40's early 50's and grew up in Van.

Then, B&E's were not a rite of passage for kids. In fact, most people didn't lock their doors. One could leave his/her bike (unpadlocked) and find it still there later. No drive by shootings. I remember we had street gangs - remember the Dunbar Dukes, Eddy? - and except for minor injuries, a bit of car theft, and a lot of strutting around, they couldn't compare to todays sickos.

I wouldn't want the Hayes Office back, but IMHO our media, which seems to glorify violence, has a lot to do with it.

Eddy, you're naive if you imagine the relatively sanitized world of 1960's Hollywood created anything like the cornucopia of violent imagery washing over children and adolescents thirty and forty years later. This imagery has a dramatic and powerful effect.

That being said, it is testimony to the resilience and strength of our youth that such a splendid majority of them turn out just fine. These are the kids that are constantly getting a bad rap from the misdeeds of what is still a small minority. As to the consistently shrinking portion of Canada's (and other First World nations') GDP that is actually devoted to the well-being of children and adolescents compared to the provision of tax relief for a bloated elite, it's a scandal that somehow a corrupt media brainwashes a docile public to live with.

While kids drown in a plethora of relatively empty entertainments and managed time, the natural world that their boomer parents took for granted as home and a place to play is being degraded and stripped away.

Adolescents have always been troublesome to their parents, at least since Sophocles complained about it in his dramas. In the words of the sixties' rock band, the kids are all right. But we should not be complacent about them and their futures because they're going to take over when we check out. They should not be spoiled and coddled, but they do deserve the best we can do for them. We're often simply not smart enough to know what that is.

The article above makes clear, however, that the kids at risk are often part of an experiential world that is terrifyingly foreign to most of us, and they need our help to become part of a more caring world rather than be left to their own sometimes pathological imaginations.

hollywood could cease to exist tomorrow and it would hardly make a difference. most of the violence on tv comes from the news. where is the shining example of how not resorting to violence is such a good thing? is it in iraq? is it in afghanistan? is it in israel? was it while serbia was being bombed? was it while people were taking machetes to each other in somalia on camera without being challenged? was it while the jungle was burnt away with agent orange in vietname? give me a break, the kids don't care about the latest hit movie, that's obviously just entertainment. the real incitement to violence comes from 'you're either with us or you're against us'. the real incitement comes from 'these are detestable murderers and scumbags'. people can say these things and then go and slaughter people and not only get away with but be rewarded for it. that's why we're going to hell in a handbasket. our entertainment reflects the attitude of the people, not the other way around. nice guys never win. if you want something you've got to fight for it. cheaters don't prosper - if they get caught. you have to look at the way that wars have gone from reluctantly stepping up to the plate to take down the nazi menace, to an unending war on terror where target countries can be picked at random for a suppository dose of 'freedom' and 'democracy' meanwhile freedom and democracy quickly dissolve in a bath of 'anti-terror' laws at home. the kids are only following the examples they are given. the most successful people in the world are the most vicious, so what do you expect?

not that somalia was such a great example for how the kids should act either, but i think i meant rwanda back there. oops.

I sometimes wonder about the children that grew up in Australia during the days when it was still legal to hunt down an aboriginal on horesback...

Those days only ended in 1959 when it was outlawed. So, what about in 1958 and earlier? Would such a murderer just have been accepted as a "bloody agressive mate"? A sicko?

The Virk case is very disturbing, and there were several other high school students in Victoria who committed murder around the same time. One of those murders was described in Birney's Such a Good Boy. It did nothing to enlighten the community about how their children could come to do such things.

She tried to blame the children's Dungeons and Dragons game playing (i.e., they lived in a fantasy world). She did not explain how one of them came to be diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, although he had grown up in a Victorian suburd, not a battlefield. It could not have been, in part, from school bullying, could it? Even back in the early 1990s, it was not recognized and talked about, let alone the 1950s or 40s.

The author was an Aussie who grew up in pre-1959 Australia. If Birney grew up when murdering aboriginals was not seen as abnormal, then bullying would have been completely off the radar screen.

I hope the Virk family receives something in return from the publishing company's earnings and the author's gains due to their suffering. I am sure it is a very enlightened and respectful account compared to Such a Good Boy which was a quick hack at a true crime book to get the author some bucks.

From the streets of Vancouver, I recommend Emily Lau's Runaway for a Chinese-Canadian perspective on bullying.

I despise the `slant` on this type of story. Poor Kelly; another victim of our cold-hearted government. Reena Who?

Too many people not accepting responsibility for their own actions. The modern malady.

A story on the 2-year old foster child murdered by her uncle really should be written. That`s a real eye opener of the governments outrageous treatment of native children.

Every once in a while, the conservatives are right about something. And they are correct when they say that pinning adolescent misbehaviour on Provincial Government policies is unfair and inaccurate. Social programs and counsellors can do some good, I am sure, but their effect is very limited.

Hollywood? Sorry folks. If that connection was valid, we would find murderous teens to be the norm rather than the exception.

All mammals (and most birds for that matter) are creatures that need to orient themselves. If parents, grandparents, uncles and aunts and other adult members of a community are not present, the child will find others to follow.

That being said, there is still plenty of room for social policy, but the intervention has to be damn early. I'm guessing that the full basket of medicine needed to treat this malady contains ideas from both the right and left. And I'm guessing that the left-leaning ones won't have much of a shot; the barbarians are back in the saddle, and the pendulum is swinging pretty hard to the right. Sigh.

What do you expect from a society pushed into the hysterical ideology of so called "competition", where certain people are not only permitted, but encouraged to take the livelihoods, properties and even lives of those who are not "competitive"? This ideology is then taken out onto our roads, stores and into every aspect of our lives, with laws designed to protect and praise the biggest criminals.

Regardless of what a person's other qualities might be, in some cases hiding incredible and useful talents for the development of a healthy society, our economic and political systems are heaping praises on people whe have the talent and gall to expropriate and steal the lives of the most victims and destroy the most of the ecology, then call them "productive".

Some jerks sitting in fancy offices, and I've built a quite few of them, scheeming and planning the destruction of the most lives so their gang take their earnings and put them into their own pockets, are the "gilt edged advisors" to governments for the legalized theft of more from more. This is what our economists call the "growth of productivity"

Poor little Rena was beaten up and murdered because in the eyes of her peers she wasn't "strong" and "productive" within the capacities of their distorted little minds, just as millions are not fit to live, according to the gilt edged speculators of the stock, resource and money markets, the controllers of our "free market" economies, where people become "commodities" to be bought, sold and destroyed at will.

You let the Genie out of the bottle and this is what you get. The difference between legalized and illegal crime is only one word, that can be twisted and thrown around at the will of the new Seigneurs. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

'Poor little Rena was beaten up and murdered because in the eyes of her peers she wasn't "strong" and "productive" within the capacities of their distorted little minds, just as millions are not fit to live, according to the gilt edged speculators of the stock, resource and money markets, the controllers of our "free market" economies, where people become "commodities" to be bought, sold and destroyed at will.' Big Ed; That may have been your biggest crock of shite yet. How idiotic can you be?

Fom you, I take this as a compliment that makes my day............Ed.

hey nemisis, you're a real winner. your wife must be really proud of you!

My biggest concern with this artical is that, once again, people are making excuses for the poor behavior of others. We are all guilty. But until people start dealing with thier 'own' issues, we can expect more of the same. And please do not reward me with a DSM lable that I can use to justify MY behavior. I'll pick bipolar every time.

Excellent and insightful review, Ms McClintock.

Guys, if you think things like 'grand theft auto' (just one example of the kind of 'media our children are watching) aren't having a dire effect on our children, you're dreaming. But, the producers have a right to sell their product in our new society, don't they? Can't regulate them.

Of course, the causes of this problem are complex and not easily articulated in a casual converstation.

A social workers work is not only difficult, it is often dangerous. A worker in a dropin centre for 'high risk youth' has a potentially physically dangerous job. And, for sure it is a stressful one.
When are we going to stop attacking the professions in society who are helping people?
I know it is by design - to public sector union bust - so that the underbelly, bottomfeeders within our society can exploit us, as Ed Deak so skillfully articulates, but, really! Let's awaken!

We are having a complete breakdown in society, where parents are stressed and society is stressed, disconnected and alienated from itself and our immediate environment. It IS true that our 'progress' has created a world where non-academic oriented children can no longer find a prosperous place in society. However, now those people are vilified, blamed for something not at all their fault and not allowed a place within society. Where are they going to go except to the outskirts of legitimate society?

We are increasingly violent, both in action and in our discourse. Do we think children aren't hearing the violence being voiced towards their teachers, telephone workers, cleaners at the hospital? Do you think they don't notice when a premier can drink and drive and not have to step down? Do you think they aren't listening and learning that people on welfare are the 'scum of the earth'? That legitimate tax payers are charity cases when they receive services?

We have yet to see the generation that comes from this new development in our society. Now, that's truly frightening.

Actually, if media has any effect on our society, it is to produce an endless supply of Homer Simpson wannabes. After all, that's the garbage we have fed to an entire generation. And the thought explains itself. The latest garbage from our social worker team is to apprehend children found in grow-ops, supposedly because some of these opperations are fire traps. They will make victims of these children, some of whom will use the experience as an excuse to justify pathetic behaviors in the future. Of course, no one apprehends children because christmas trees or natural gas hook-ups create a percieved danger. So the move against grow-op children can only be considered as a move to feather the nest. It's high time our social services team met the challenge of justifying thier own existance instead of glorifying it. They obviously failed the Virks and many others. See, I can make excuses too.

Nemesis, Let me pick up where DFL left off. You snipe at peoples opinions but yet contribute nothing like an intelligent rebuttle. Statements like, how much better things would be without unions and how the CBC sucks, are as worthy of ignoring as anything Ronny ever put forward. You come across as frustrated, angry and narrow minded. The only reason you should be here is to listen to views that are diverse and to make you think outside the box. Why don't you apologize for your behavior and then maybe we can move forward with your education?

Apologize for what club? For calling Ed's above rant complete and unadulterated garbage? Not likely. I can't even believe you lefties could support such nonsense. Have you read it and realized what he's intimating? In short, that corporate greed killed that poor little girl. He should be ashamed of himself for spewing such crap, and you should feel embarrassed about encouraging it.
P.S. You may want to think twice about admitting that you admire DFL/sleepswithangels.

I'll try and explain this as I would if I was talking to someone less enlightened.

The nature of Ed Deak's comments are totally consistent with what he has said repeatedly on this site and I'm sure with his writing elsewhere. It is a big picture view, that requires the reader to acknowledge that todays civilization has servere flaws and the way we conduct business in our so called society is mainly responsible. You either get the picture or you don't. Your comments, once again are consistant with someone who is angry, frustrated or perhaps scared for the future. Welcome to the club, we are all scared for the future of the species. I'm not convinced you've listened to the arguments as you have no rebuttle once again other than name calling. I also said I'm picking up where DFL left off which is to give you a hard time. In hindsight while I don't wish to antagonize you further, I would like you to calm down and so therefore, I will not continue baiting you. How about de-baiting you? (debating.....that's humor...)

Who here has not felt the pressure of society to produce and get ahead in life? Who here hasn't had bad days at the office, and wondered what the **** am I doing this shit for? Who here has not felt deflated and helpless when watching the horrors of war and natural disasters? The seeds for evil are planted in this society. I call it the defective gene. As I believe we are quite likey on the verge of going extinct, and sooner than anyone wants to publicly admit. Maybe not completely wiped out but, life and business as we know it today is just about done. Sorry, unless you've covered the topic for 30 years, I can't transfer my instinct to you. I can only ask that you collect the data for yourself, and analyse it. It's all around you, every day, in every news cast, paper and even how we treat each other in our daily lives. Just the content of TV itself outta be enough to send you screaming for signs of intelligent life! The choice is yours, you can sit around with your friends and wonder why everyone is so fucked up, and get around to blaming "lefties" or you can become part of the solution. I have very low expectations of this species based on past performance, and you aren't helping that opinion any. Perhaps I could ask you to also think twice.

nemesis, I happen to concur with Big Ed. You are the problem with your denial of the dysfunction now apparent in most of modern society.

Yes, of course I realize you are the exception.
How fortunate you were born into a non-troubled existance where only poor people were the problem and that you were taught to blame them because you could.

However I do suspect you must have kept that sense of entitlement to yourself during the '60s lest you were idedntified as an early sellout.

In the decades since you were a teen the world has changed as much as it did between the birth of your great-grandmother and yourself.

Social norms have been tossed as the naive and impressionable chase after the carrots dangled by consumerism, the news media reflects a general understanding of cultural norms and family realities that borders on madness and no one, especially the media, ever has time to reflect on where we are all headed.

In the case of the Virk tragedy, the news media essentially played the role of the red neck vigilanty organizer, spewing bullshot about the terrible monsters walking our streets while never looking at into their backgrounds, the abuse, neglect etc., that shaped their self image, esteem and expectations.

It's the old victim game gone wild, where editors who wouldn't know a crisis from a bad case of hemeroids drum up headlines ensuring society and its elites are nowhere to be found within the circle of those who might be responsible for allowing the dysfunction to spread.

And out in the corner, hiding with the others, is the capitalist structure you're so friggin' proud of, reaping record profits, enjoying new found tax cuts and recognizing nothing but the dollar as worthy of pursuit.

This, in fact, is all about capitalism and its detrimental impact on our culture and our society. It is an economic system based on greed and undercutting your competition.

So I must ask, do you defend capitalism because you are greedy or is it that you fear a more humane approach to culture or society would put you on an even playing field with those who aren't quite the person you see yourself as?

Not angry, not frustrated, and not scared for the future. Just very sick and tired of whacked-out lefty politicos spewing naive 1960's anti-establishment garbage. Everyone's a victim in your world and that's counter-productive at best.

Oops, I'm sorry, you're not angry, not frustrated and not scared, just very sick and tired. Do I detect perhaps just a wee bit of stress in there Mr. Nemesis? A wise man once said "I revere nature." The loss of respect for nature and the way we measure economics will cost us dearly, as Ed says "there is no cost cutting only cost transfer." Thanks Ed, it's wisdom I will always remember. See? I'm not bitter or a victim. I'm just curious and fascinated with the problemata of the human condition. So Mr. nemesis while you are out drinking with your other not angry, not upset or not frustrated klan friends substituting whatever you people substitiute for life, we whacked out lefty politicos are enjoying the finer things in life. You'll have to quit hanging around with the guys to figure out what that is. Oops, I did say I wouldn't bait you didn't I? Sorry.

The good news is that there are only a very few of you guys, relatively speaking, and you'll never have much influence in mainstream society, as there isn't a viable political party to represent your ridiculous ideas. Except perhaps the freaks with 'cope classic', but their time in the sun was reactionary and momentary, and they're about to fizzle out anyway. The funniest part of this thread is seing how you guys depict those that oppose you. You're so wrong that it makes it very difficult to take any of you seriously, but that's par for the course I guess. Great blather though club, you're a bona-fide hero with about .02% of the population. Keep it up, you'll go far.

You are obviously a power boater and I guess I can understand your frustration. The nervous tension and laughter between us sailors and you is slowly ebbing with the rising tide of fuel costs. While we do share the water, our philosophies are fundamentally different. Perhaps my earlier comments have touched a nerve with you and your ilk. I see a day in the near future where beautiful sailing vessels are once again at the forefront of trade with far away lands. The rusting and rotting skeletons of container ships abundant in the breakdown yards of the world. Your beloved bayliner 4655 sun bridge reduced to a float home in an overcrowded anchorage! Is this the reason you are so bitter? The choices you've made in your life all wrong? You need someone to blame, I understand. I'm here for you, bring me your shame and all those broken dreams. We feel your pain....

How's that for blather? You see it differs from rational thought by taking a topic beyond it's imaginary boundaries. These boundaries are the reason you can't comprehend what we are saying. Somewhere you stopped learning or asking questions because you think you figured it all out. The rest of us only had this knowledge breifly when we were 16. Or perhaps it's an ESL problem. Either way you have a serious case of anti-social behavior brewing there Nemy. May I call you Nemy? How about Numby?

Anyone want any more proof of the defective gene theory?

With that blather you've reduced it to .01%.

I would sooner be part of the .01% who can think independently , than belong to the brainwashed masses serving self appointed rulers. Even if they claim to be sent by the gods.
Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Nemesis mumbled bitterly in his 23rd beer: "The good news is that there are only a very few of you guys, relatively speaking, and you'll never have much influence in mainstream society,"

You don't follow the news do you? There is a world-wide revolt going on against you Neocons. There are actually far more liberatory struggles going on today asnd a much higher level of consciousness than back in the 1960's. I should know, I was a 1960's activist...

Sorry Anarcho, but I don't drink. And as for your drivel; tell it to the fringe festival.

Nemesis, you are beginning to write very much like that guy we all like to ignore.

Are you related.>

We both work for Gordo. $125k/year plus benefits, including a Lincoln Continental. We sabotage left-wing blog sites all day long and plant phony diversional stories to Canwest. Good work if you can find it.

Translated: Unemployed, single, mid forties, living at home with his parents.

Oh good joke club. You're almost as funny as your alter ego, sleepswithangels.

Numby, I gave you a chance to play in the sandbox with the rest of the kids, but you would rather play alone with yourself. Your choice to ridicule instead of debate is tiresome. Do people around you often yawn and then drift off to sleep? Family and friends don't come around much anymore? Geez, I wonder why......BECAUSE YOU'RE BORING!!!

Club: Ah yes the eternal struggle between sailboats and powerboats, having done the Coast Guard thing for 15 years, there are wankers and good sailors in both groups. Amazing how many in both groups don’t realize the advantage of a staysail in rough weather. Not to mention how useful anchors are when your engine/mast breaks. If that guy who’s sailboat had run aground recently off of False Creek, had used his anchor early, he would still have a boat today and not a uninsured hulk.

Back to topic
I remember the gang rumbles in N. Van and the bully’s we had, when I was growing up. I was picked on a lot because of a speech impediment, nut I never felt afraid for my life. Speaking to kids nowdays, they are deeply afraid of the gangs and of the bullies. The problems come from a number of sources. One of biggest problems is the lack of consequence. Speak to anyone who is involved with the court system and they will tell you that few kids are afraid of going to court or jail and few ever do serve any time for their crimes. While I understand what was being attempted with the “Young Offenders Act” I always felt it was a failure. Mainly because it did not recognize that kids are able to comprehend their actions and will adjust their actions in accordance with the consequences.

Other factors are that immigrants coming to this country are used to a far more severe criminal justice system and those that chose to be criminal have no fear of our system and use it to their advantage. Spoke to a person yesterday that was transferring a prisoner on my flight. He has seen the same Honduran drug dealer 7 times in the last 2 years going through the court system and this case is the norm, not the exception.

Fetal Alcohol syndrome is also a big issue with the native community and we need to work hard to reduce incidents of this. It is certainly cheaper to prevent it, then to deal with the effects. The problem is how to, the Charter of Rights reduces the ability to intervene early.

Poverty, although it is a factor, poverty existed and the current problems did not. I fully agree that TV plays a large factor in this. People are told they need this and that to be successful and for many who come from poor families, gangs appear to be the only way to achieve this “success”.
However I also attribute attitude of the parents to be a big source of the problems. I had a kid working for me, he came from poor but proud parents, at 17 he bought a old boat to live on and was working at 3 jobs, plus volunteering, cadets. He now working on the tugs and will likely be a Captain by 22. Very proud of him. This is not the only case I have seen where attitude of the parent(s) has played a big part in the success of the child and this is something that no school, program, service can really replace.

What it boils down to is that despite the sad lives her murderers lived, Reena did not deserve to die and those involved will have to bear the consequences of their actions. For society we need to identify what lead to this incident to help reduce the causes to prevent further tragedies such as this.

Club; You should learn that every time you try to characterize your opposition you make a complete fool of yourself. You also need to work on your sense of humour.

It's Clubo, Clubo Frome.

You are completely unworthy as an opponent. You make no sense and cannot debate. You snipe at peoples comments while contributing nothing. As noted by many readers you are annoying. You can't even defend yourself in a fuc* you contest! Learn when to stay on the mat, getting up after every knock down is not a sign of intelligence. Soon you will be ignored here too. How do you like them apples?
The lesson will be repeated until learned. Another truth you obviously have trouble grasping. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go work on my sense of humor.

I don't think you can blame tv news for violent youth, simply because so few young people (esp. 'at-risk' youth) make watching the news a part of their life.

While tv and movies may not be the main actor in this tragedy, I was struck while waiting for the bus yesterday across from London Drugs on Broadway by the four movie posters in their A/V department's window (excuse the run-on plse). Violence was paramount in three of them, with guns prominently displayed.

As for videogames, many of them teach violence as the solution to problems and reward that kind of behaviour. Given the amount of time some kids spend playing video games and watching violence onscreen it's hard not to believe there's some dulling of empathetic response resulting from being awash in simulated blood and gore.

We've taught our children well. Unfortunately, the lessons seems to be that life is cheap.

The Irony Of Supposed Grown-ups Sniping At Each Other In This Thread Like Grade Schoolers In An Overcrowded Sandbox Appears To Be Lost On Y'all!

Damn Right I'm Yelling.

Apparently, all-caps gets filtered on this site.

P3wned by the filter yet again!

Calm down Stump.

You're a beauty club. Like one big walking cliche. And actually proud of yourself for performing well in an f-you contest. I bet they love you down on the drive.

Cliche!?! You bastard! This is all original material! I demand a retraction!

I go to a private high school in central Van and I think I have more of a viewpoint of what my age group's culture is like than you adults do-how long ago were you in high school? Things change, and others do not.

Stump, I disagree with you and all who say that video games and our culture causes teens my age (14) to commit violent crimes. By 10 kids' values are already firmly imprinted-by 14 I would hope that people would respected our intelligence enough to know the difference between real and fake violence. The problem lies with parents who ignore age limits and buy their under-10 kids violent video games (and let them watch violent TV shows, as well. Power Rangers? Ninja Turtles? Violence sells, and the networks know that. Besides, if your kids are smart they won't want to watch that tripe.) to keep them out of their faces while they work on their low-wage jobs. The answer isn't to condemn the kids themselves as inherently evil. The shared type of backround of the kids are not mere coincidence-parents who don't love their kids enough cause problems like this. I have two groups of friends at school. The first includes the rich and bored (pretty girls from shaugnessy who noone expected to do crack) and the poor with divorced parents (sad kids who grew up in broken households. Because they don't feel part of a family they find a surrogate one-usually a gang). The second includes the well-balanced kids with loving parents who are firmly in the upper-middle-class bracket (we tend to avoid things like drug use, sex, and gangs). I find that lack of a loving household leads to most if not all of these problems, and things like divorce (of course due to a bad relationship between husband and wife) are usually products of our culture as well... The best model for relationships in my limited experience is friendship first, romance, and then physicality as a relatively unimportant side issue. Too many people, especially these days, fall in love and marry without getting to know the real person with the other wedding ring. In fact we jump before looking where we'll land in most things in life these days. It's the crazy years, to quote an islander (Spider Robinson).

And I wish clubofrome and nemesis would stop sniping at each other, no matter what your opinions are. If you don't have something constructive to say, keep your mouth shut (or in this case, your keyboard untouched). Especially you, nemesis.

Respectfully, I haven't suggested what you suggest I'm suggesting.

(I think I just channeled Donald Rumsfeld)

Tyee.ca is a great, unbiased and fresh news source. Cheers, but the childish potshots between nemesis and clubofrome is getting old. Enough of the nyah, nyah; get on with some intelligent opinions or don't post at all.

The Reena Wirk issue should not be used as a forum for personal problems.

Thanks, Alcyon. Great to hear from you. I'm a high school teacher with a pretty good ear to the rail, and methinks you speak the truth.

"Stump, I disagree with you and all who say that video games and our culture causes teens my age (14) to commit violent crimes. By 10 kids' values are already firmly imprinted-by 14 I would hope that people would respected our intelligence enough to know the difference between real and fake violence. The problem lies with parents who ignore age limits and buy their under-10 kids violent video games (and let them watch violent TV shows, as well. Power Rangers? Ninja Turtles? Violence sells, and the networks know that."

I didn't say video games and our culture cause violence. I said they desensitize us to it. As to values being imprinted at ten, hmmmm, I'd like to know what makes you make such a bold assertion.

And certainly the problem starts with parents, but if you're going to claim you're old enough at fourteen to know better, then some of the problem must lie with the youth right?

The difference between real and fake violence is obvious on a conscious level, but not so much on a subconscious level. And the type of fake violence we see now borders on the realistic so often that real violence seems banal by comparison. This prolonged exposure to violence will eat away at your empathy on a subconscious level and that's what contributes to tragedies such as that which befell Reena.

And yes, the problem is especially pronounced with very young children. But there's a huge difference between the violence I saw at ten (think Coyote and Roadrunner), and even some of the tamer video games that feature an aggression=reward meme. When you play those games (at any age) you're programming your brain to equate violence with a reward. Even if you don't believe you're doing it on purpose, it's happening on a subconscious level IMO.

There's a reason soldiers are drilled again and again in the techniques of killing. Repetition breeds results.

I've never been a soldier. I'd love to hear some thoughts from a veteran on the subject.

Stump, if you want to find out how a militarised person thinks, and how he/she influences the thinking of those around her/him, go to any of the Yankee sites. The overt and covert violence expressed offers a very sad picture, indeed.

OTOH, one of the most gentle and even tempered men I've ever known was a WW2 Canadian veteran who had killed in battle and later wound up as a prisoner, spending the last two two years of the war in a Stalag. When he was liberated, he weighed ninety pounds. He stood 6'2 and weighed 170 when he went in.

Well back in the 70’s all our training was focused in getting us to live through the first 24hours of combat. In the 80’s it became more combat focused as they realized that most soldiers don’t actually shoot their weapon in combat. Nowadays the emphasis is on a whole host of combat skills and the realization that most of the enemies we will fight use civilian populations as shields. Therefore you can’t just throw a grenade into a window. A group of soldiers will have to go into the building and clear room for room. Actually some of the techniques such as “mouseholing” were first developed by Canadian soldiers in Italy during WWII.

Video games now are very complex, I have never played grand theft auto, so I can’t comment on it. But some games I have tried such as BF2 have tied personal scores to a bunch of factors, teamwork being an important one, in fact the “medic” in the game gains points by helping fellow players who become wounded in the game. Some of the FPS involving hostage rescue and such force the player to rescue the hostages unharmed and the “bad guys” will surrender on occasion. Some of the scenarios require the player to capture the other side alive.

In fantasy and Sci-fiction games the role playing can be quite complex and often require a strategy built on trade, diplomacy, alliances and war to win. Many of the online games have a fairly strict code of conduct and you will get booted for “ anti-social behaviour”

Many of today’s games require the players to resolve real life type problems with a variety of skills. There are some games out there that should go in the trashbin and the parents of kids should take an interest in what the kids are playing and use it as a tool to build good social skills. Anyone that says “video-games are bad” knows little about the subject. It is a complex culture that require thoughtful understanding.

'Tyee.ca is a great, unbiased and fresh news source' says coast cheryl. Wow, must be a teacher.

Keep pulling on it N. Maybe it'll grow one day.

I'm not sure if you're referring to me Colin, but please read what I wrote. I didn't condemn video games (tho I consider them a huge waste of time and money, having plugged my share of quarters and loonies into them at the arcade). While FPS (first person shooter for those not in the know) may encourage teamwork they also reward violent solutions in many instances. The exceptions prove the rule IMO.

For Cheryl and Alcyon,
No matter what age you are, you will face opposition at some point in your life. Your character will decide how you react to the attack. It may come verbally or worse physically but either way you will have to confront it. These swarmings are just group bullies, with a pack mentality. The reasons for their behavior are many, but the general concensus is the world is becoming a more violent place. That's all you see in the media. Watch Bowling for Columbine and ask yourself why is this happening. The points that were made very early on in this thread do deal with the real issues as seen through the eyes of people who have been on this planet many years and have legitimate concerns. Read the postings by Fiat lux and others, you'll understand their wisdom comes from free thinking. Then you have people who are here only to ridicule those ideas. So forgive me as I play thread policeman, but I have little tolerance for bullies. We all have to stand up for what is right. Behavior tolerated is behavior accepted. Just not in my world.

As per your wishes I will try and keep the "blather" to a minimum!

Behaviour ignored goes away. Worx for kids, perhaps it might work on the childish as well.

Let's give it a try.

Club
The world has always been a violent place, we were just able to insulate ourselves from it here in the West for a brief period of time.

I certainly agree with your comment that they are bullies with a pack mentality, and I think their previous behaviour should have caused someone to intervene much earlier

When I was watching “Bowling for Columbine” all I could think of is: “Why am I watching this garbage, glad I didn’t pay for it”

Do you know that almost all of the US schools that have suffered from shootings, had been previously declared “gun free schools” which meant that no one was armed on school property to protect the students.

Guess the insulation's wearing off....

Not sure I get your last point, Colin. Are you saying if the students were allowed to take guns to school they would be safer? Or that no armed guards were on site? Either way it's a sad commentary on the state of the union.

Garbage eh? What about the part where Mr. Moore asks Charleton Heston why he went to Flint Michigan for an NRA ralley after the 6 year old girl was shot? Don't you find it a bit insensitive that he was also in Denver promoting guns after the Columbine shootings as well? To see the once mighty "Moses" and "Ben Hur" talking about the reasons so many murders are committed in the states. Ethnicity? What kind of answer was that?
Racist, that's what kind.

In reference to the “gun free schools”
Quite often in the US, a number of the teachers and/or security guards would be armed. The schools that had become “gun free” would not allow anyone to bring a gun onto school property. Had someone been armed they might have been able to stop the attacks and saved some lives.

In reference to the bad movie
The meeting had been booked 2 years in advance and the NRA cancelled the gun show and only carried out the general meeting that they were required to by law.

So should GM & Ford stop selling cars everytime a pedestrian is struck?

Your hero did an ambush interview on someone who was suffering from Alzheimer's disease. Heston should have just given him the boot, but was to much a gentleman.

Remember the bank & gun scene, totally engineered by Moore to make it appear that they were handing out guns at the bank which was not the case.

I remember a quote from an old lady I knew describing someone similar to Moore: “A fart in a bottle”

Can't wait for your revue of Farenheit 9/11!

"So should GM & Ford stop selling cars everytime a pedestrian is struck?"

Works for me!

In essence Colin what you have said through out this thread and others is that guns and violence are part of our world, deal with it. I know, I know, it's not guns who kill people it's people who kill people. Save your breath.

I wish I could, but I find that I have to repeat the message again and again, thanks to some people's rather reality free views. In the UK they banned guns pretty much for everyone and now gun crimes have shot up, now their doctors want to ban pointy kitchen knives......sigh

well off to tea with the wife. Cheers

Prior to the present laws, handguns were required to be registered in Canada. Then as now, almost all of the killing was done with Saturday Night Specials.

I doubt if if registration of rifles has brought a reduction in killing with them either, and given the accuracy of "official stats" from law enforcement agencies re their efforts with drugs and suchlike, I'd be inclined to distrust their stats anyway.

Military weapons then? Ban em.

Pointy kitchen knives too? Sure, women can't be trusted with em :-]

Scylla
The official stats for firearm crimes include the seizure of pellet guns and replica’s. A friend of mine who say the footage from the recent drug bust is sure the submachine they were displaying as a real firearm was a plastic replica.

Also for firearms related crimes. If someone were to break into my house and steal my stereo and CD’s. It would be recorded as a “firearms related crime” because there were firearms in the house (stored as per regulations)

Talk about stacking the deck

Banning military weapons? Would that include the .303 rifle and German Mauser used by a huge amount of hunter? How about my 1926 British army Service revolver.

My friend owns a WWII anti-tank gun, weighing in at around 2,000 pds. I don’t think he will be robbing anyone with it.

I know what you were implying but it is those same sort of comments that lead to our badly written Firearms Act. Now the UN wants to mark all the firearms made in the world. Great, any half decent expert can tell where a firearm is made by the existing marks. Expand our 2 billion boondoogle by 120 nations, yikes guess they have to cancel the food shipments to Dafur to pay for this new scheme.

Lets not forget about the frying pans and my mom's favorite: the dreaded wooden spoon :-0

Yes! Repeat the lesson until learned! Good point Colin. Like behavior tolerated is behavior accepted. You either hold people accountable for their actions, or you accept the behavior no matter how vile. You have accepted that guns are a way of life. But for many people on this planet they are a sign of oppression and corruption. To take by force, wage war, promote violence over peaceful resolutions. Yup, any way you look at it Hoss, ol' buddy, this ain't no paradise of a civilization. Promoting fear and hatred fuel the fires of intolerance, and more and more the rules of society are ignored. Ignored right from the top too. No wonder no one trusts government anymore. Anyway you slice it the big market correction is coming. Economically and Socially we will pay a big price for these so called freedoms you have been enjoying.

Well, it's of to field strip and clean my rocket launcher....

I thought we had agreed to ignore ron erwin and nemesis. (and all others of their ilk)

Except for the odd reference to those two, I think that's wise. I can respect Colin for his contributions to these threads and his willingness to debate without being a guttersnipe. Perhaps as a veteran his world view is jaded. I'd rather have him on my side considering his rather impressive arsenal. I'm sure his collection of "slotted" wooden spoons is also equally impressive! ;)

"My friend owns a WWII anti-tank gun, weighing in at around 2,000 pds. I don’t think he will be robbing anyone with it."

How many rounds of ammo does he have? Sounds like the perfect weapon for Hummer hunting. ;-)

Seriously though, in regard to weapons, the real problem is handguns, not rifles. There are only two types of people who should be allowed to own/carry handguns: cops, and competitive target shooters (who use .22 caliber and pellet guns IIRC). This isn't the Wild West, and there's no need for the "gun of the hand" to quote the movie 'Witness'. Further, there should be an immediate moratorium on handgun production. Personal freedoms be damned, I want the freedom to walk down the street without fearing some idiot is going to pull a gat on me and demand my wallet.

Stump
You would be quite nervous if you saw how many of the cops shoot, many only do so once a year because they are required to. Most lawabiding shooters are far more familiar with shooting than the “professionals”. I actually had to tell one officer how their weapon functioned. Many of the ranges will no longer rent to police forces due to serious accidents.

Despite the above, many of the people I shoot with are cops, sheriffs and armed security guards who do take their responsibility seriously. A firearm in the hands of a law abiding citizen who takes their responsibility seriously is not a safety concern. Insurance rates for gun clubs are quite low, which shows how good the safety records are. I seriously suggest that you find someone to take to the range and let you enjoy a sport that is fun and challenging. My range also supports handicapped shooters and young Olympics shooters in training.

Actually I don’t mind the original Hummer, it was true to it’s form and function, the H2 & H3 are pretenders. Plus 6 pdr Anti-tank ammo is rather difficult to find.

Those wooden spoons my Mom used were effective, instantaneous, painful with a “thwack” that you did not quickly forget.

It is a pity that we can not put smily's in these threads.

" A firearm in the hands of a law abiding citizen who takes their responsibility seriously is not a safety concern."

I have no doubt of that. I also know that blasting away at targets is good, clean fun. It's when that law-abiding citizen's gun is stolen that the problems begin. So, I would counter that thieves can't steal what doesn't exist.

Stump
Theft is always a nightmare that any firearm owner worries about, which why we don’t advertise the fact to often (this hurts us politically) One of our major concerns is that the registry will be compromised by organized crime by either hacking in or more easily co-opting one of the staff or get one their people hired to work there. In fact it is highly suspected that many of the thefts in Ontario can be linked to the recording of addresses of people purchasing ammunition. This is a provincial requirement and not Federal, which only requires the showing of a valid PAL.

Thieves will get guns from anywhere they can, because they have a market value. However most guns come smuggled in from the US in exchange for our pot.

I could also turn your argument around and say that most innocent people who are killed in high speed chases are killed by criminals in stolen cars. Should we punish drivers for leaving their vehicles in vulnerable locations or banning them altogether?

The real answer to both problems would be to focus on getting the career criminals off the street for a long time. Generally it appears that a small percentage 15-20% of criminals cause over 80% of the crimes (source: Associations of Police chiefs I believe)
Also long prison sentences for crimes where guns or knives were used to threaten/ harm someone.

In the US the States that have concealed weapon permits are showing a significant drop in crime, it is the States and Cities that do not that have an increasing or high crime rate.

What you are suggesting would take away a hobby that I and millions of other Canadians enjoy and destroy many small business, so you will respectfully understand that I will not sit back and let people do so.

dang! wish we could edit posts as I noticed some missing words as soon as I hit the "submit" button. Sorry

Stumpy; The incidence of thieves stealing guns from a home and then using them is barely negligible. Besides, regulations require you to store your firearm properly, with the ammunition in a different location, and either a trigger lock or a separate location for the bolt. All of these regulations applied before Allan 'the fool' Rock's ridiculous $2 billion Gun Control Act.

Nemesis:

Wherever they get the guns, there's a lot of gun-related crimes. Again, if there's no guns, they can't be bought, stolen, or traded for anything.

Regulations, shmegulations. Ammo can be bought easily, trigger locks can be defeated, and bolts can no doubt be found somewhere. What about semi-automatic weapons that aren't bolt action? I'm not disputing your bolt comment, so much as seeking further info.

Colin:
I respect your position. But, how many lives are we willing to trade for a hobby? Also, w/r/t cars vs guns, cars are (God, it kills me to say this ;-) far more utile than guns and provide a greater social benefit. Having said that, if it's a gun owner's responsibility to secure their gun, the same should hold true for car owners, I think immobilizers should be standard equipment, and the responsibility should fall on car and gun manufacturers to build a safer product.

Please note I have no problem with rifles and shotguns. Handguns which have two purposes to my mind: shooting people and shooting targets (which have a unsettling tendency to look like people)

"Handguns have two purposes." Burn the 'which' plse!

"In the US the States that have concealed weapon permits are showing a significant drop in crime."

Is there a concrete correlation between the two or could it be a statistical fluke?

A few days ago, before this conversation drifted away, Some points were made by Alcyon and others that I'd like to explore a bit.

We humans are herd animals. We require absolutely to have contact and connections with others; without such connections we literally die, or fail to thrive in fairly undeniable ways. Children have been found who were profoundly deprived of contact in the forst decade or so of life. They never recover, never learn to be completely human, or often even to talk.

Our biology dictates this; we live in families, our families extend into tribes, communities of people in relationship. And these societal relationships recursively generate outward in fractal type patterns to form towns, cities, provinces, nations, alliances of nations, the largest human pattern of this kind is of course humanity itself. All people of all kinds, everywhere.

What Alcyon said is very true, not just in individual cases of this one or that one, but true of all people. If nobody loves you enough to give you what all of us need, nourishment, contact, connection; if nobody welcomes you into your culture, cements your bonds with your kin, your communities; you are inevitably damaged in ways that can be quantified and proven.

One need only look at the patterns of personal and cultural disfunction caused by the Residential School fiasco of the first half of the last century.

Families forcibly prevented from making those bonds suffered remarkably similar kinds of symptoms. Alcoholism, sociopathy, abusiveness, poverty, violence, despair. Always the same patterns no matter what the culture of the victims.

I venture to suggest that one might at this point be able to diagnose the kidnapping from the symptoms. To deduce the way the families were broken by observing the patterns of damage. In not only the children and their larger families, but their whole communities.

So this is a matter of grave importance, biologically. The children who are seeking these irregular, quasi-families have little choice no matter what people like nemesis seem to believe. They must forge relationships that fill the function, or suffer worse damage.

In light of this thought, I wonder if the neo-conservative type of reasoning; that all must pay or have no right to the necessities of life, might not have it's roots in the childhoods of the people themselves. Could it be that they were forced to 'earn' the love of their parents? To achieve or produce or something to feel welcomed into their relationships? And so now in adulthood, this functional inability to understand the nature of need in any but financial terms results. They feel real hatred toward those who need, but can't pay.

They are incapable of acknowledging that any such obligation to one of those even exists.

It's a thought. No offense, nemesis et al.

How could I possibly take offense at such ridiculous blather? You sound like a caricature of a spaced-out brain-washed lefty. Get a life man!

Stump
We have more gun crime now that we have more gun regulations. Crime the US is down again. The world will never be a safe place, no matter what we ban. Firearms in a well educated society with a stable democracy is rarely a problem. If you can trust citizens to drive motor vehicles, boats, ships, planes. buses, trucks, trains. If we can trust citizens to elect governments, to sit in juries and decide peoples fate. Why can’t we trust them to use a firearm?

If saving lives was the primary concern of the government, then gun crime would be a low priority. While they were spending 2 billion on the gun registry, Coast guard ships were tied up for lack of fuel, rescue aircraft and helicopters were falling apart, the list goes on. I could have taken that 2 billion and bought almost every boat and aircraft in Canada a rescue beacon that would have actually saved lives and saved taxpayers more money as the coast of searching would have gone down. I have yet to see one actually example where the gun registry has saved a life.

To help clear it up a few things

A military rifle is generally easier to disable because the bolt/firing pin block can be easily removed. Civilian rifles such as the cowboy lever action can not easily be disassembled and are very difficult to disable.

While I am at it, I will clear up another bit of misinformation.
Assault rifle= a fully automatic rifle firing a low powered cartridge. These firearms are banned in Canada and only a small number of people are grandfathered to own them. Most modern military rifles such as the US M16 use a lower powered bullet than compared to a hunting rifle, because they would be uncontrollable firing a full powered round. Plus military ammunition must meet the Geneva conventions requirements and is less lethal than the hunting equivalent. In fact it would be illegal for the military to use the same ammunition as the police do. In the hands of a knowledgeable person a hunting rifle would be far more dangerous than a military rifle, luckily most of the bad guys believe the crap on TV and go for the look rather than the function.

I really encourage you to hook up with someone to go to a range and try out the sport. At the very least you will come away better informed, but I would bet that you will enjoy yourself.