fantastic

The Vancouver Police Department are, like most men, way too interested in collecting Gadgets.

I hate to be the one to break this to Hon, but taser's have been in the media for years. If you read only the Sun and Province you may be right that there wasn't a lot of coverage, but all over the province, country and North America the topic's been covered ad nauseum - besides, don't you think it's in poor taste to write an article that repeats constantly that you were the only one covering this and to assume the media has some role in regulating tasers?

One thing has always bothered me about "taser deaths": How many times were the electrical shocks administered during the arrest? God knows - among others - that there are alot of malicious cops out there willing to give a hapless perp an extra jolt for the ride downtown. Who knows? I don't.

What is wrong with surrounding a person and waiting until they calm down? Why do six men have to pile on top? How about a big net....which would work on excaped zoo animals, too?

I'd be more concerned about the death and the police force administrators (to that point) general public avoidance of the topic than "repeating" the breaking of the story - upon which Graham finally spoke up, locally. We're talking a local sceario: which local papers besides the Sun and Province do you happen to think there are? That comes off as a local complicity of silence. I can speculate how many times the poor being gets zapped - and then gets piled upon. That could suffocate a person when they're just in a drugged state without the extra induced anxiety.

Cops can act like full on violent machismo dogs with the very worst of them; I have scene the swagger in a action. A lot of vigilante "lesson" violence (often reported in police brutality complaints) can also happen right on the spot in a takedown. What is wrong with a net - would any "captive" in such a scenario be going anywhere soon - or be hurting anybody that way?

I agree with devil's advocate. What there is that's new in this story is interesting and well-researched and it draws attention to a serious issue, but to constantly be saying "we had this and no one else did, na na na na na na" seems childish. But raising the spectre of the big bad media and police coverup comes across as a ridiculous conspiracy theory. And what does the Tyee have to worry about? Either you're covering topics other media is missing, or you're not. Do a good job and people will notice and read it. Gloating like a kid on a schoolyard cheapens the otherwise good reporting I've seen on this site.

To Devil's advocate and GJW: As Tyee editor, I assigned this piece to Dee and edited it. The reason we have devoted space to reminding readers of the evolution of this story is not to 'gloat' but to point to some troubling dynamics in the local police/media scene, and to attempt to place the focus properly on not merely a jolt of electricty but 'excited delirium' as a likely key factor in these deaths. Indeed, as Dee reported in his first piece, people on drugs die in custody without being Tasered, but having been pinned in such as way as to raise their adrenalin levels and restrict their breathing. Other media hasn't focused on this crucial (in our view) fact. As for noting the Tyee's role in breaking the story, the important, troubling points are: 1) The Province, Sun and others did not follow up on the earlier Andreichikov death in custody, but only took up the Taser issue when the VPD stepped forward and admitted delaying reporting the Taser related death of Bagnel. 2) Even then the media didn't connect the dots; Andreichikov's similar death remained unexamined by the large outlets. 3)Chief Graham was given room in The Sun to opine that suspects on drugs and in the 'excited delirium' state are goners regardless of police practices (not proven at all, as Dee reported). 4)Apparently it took The New York Times major front page story on Tasers to help prompt the local media to look hard at the issue 5) The Tyee's earlier requests for information on VPD police training and use of Tasers, and record keeping on Taser and excited delirium deaths in custody were flatly stonewalled. If The Tyee can't budge the VPD and the larger, corporate owned media with vastly more resources are so slow to pursue glaring questions about deaths in custody, that raises real concerns about how accountable the VPD are held and how much pressure there is, therefore, for the police to reassess possibly dangerous practices. Thus, the article above.

Excellent points - exactly on mark by the tyee editor. Further to this is demonstrated the core value of an Internet news site, one not at the beck and call of a right wing sponsorship. Whom do you think police forces generally serve, and who clamours most for them - which contituency and why - might one ask?

Getting bent enough to write here, in "complaint" of the article's execution and not - if that's the case - to a "major" daily - for ducking the substance of the story would be far more misguided in terms of choice post, from my perspective.

it's good that Dee was hip to excited delirium. Good for him, he broke a story in Vancouver, but that's all the congratualations he gets from me. He's given himself too much already. Again I say excited delirium and tasers have been reported on several times on 60 minutes, Salon.com, NY times. The Tyee and Dee did a good job in recognizing it in Andreichikov's case. I would imagine if any of the Sun and Province's reporters read the Tyee as much as they read the Times they would have picked up on it earlier. The thing about the news is that the people think these big papers are meant to be omniscient. Anyone who has read them, know they're not. After reading Beer's response, I'm now wondering why this article was written a month after the last if you thought you had something so good. Also, if the Tyee can't make the VPD budge, then I would say it has bigger fish to fry than to worrying about what is going on in the dailies.

The fact remains that tasers are a less lethal use of force compared to a baton, or a gun. Police forces around the world have been testing out less lethal weapons for years: bean bag shotguns, rubber bullets, tasers, water cannons, net guns, etc. But unfortunatly the media, especially in Vancouver, love a story about police brutality. It's to the point where the media has published so much on the subject that people may believe it happens more often than in reality. For example, the major chinese dailies publish stories that relate to the chinese community. They send reporters to every police briefing, and the police cater to that by having a story about a crime in the chinese community. So now people of that community may believe more crimes are committed close to home than in reality. It all comes down to perception versus reality. So although the taser related deaths raise many questions about the effectiveness and safety of the weapon, it is in reality a much less lethal weapon when compared to the other options.

This is a local piece regarding a local event. Is this hard to understand? Not "60 minutes", nor whatever other "external" journals within which the topic may haver been "covered" and now appears as "old hat" to your "perception". It was being sandbagged and avoided by the police (how very not new), here, in this city, and within the local "mainstream" journals. The sun and province do not "love" covering questionable outcomes that involve police - unless the police themselves come forward, as in the case of the decent officer who witnessed six other hoodlum officers beat the crap out of someone in a pre-meditated, vigilante fashion.

Your post reads like you feel the police (and taser) are "above question", ever safe in use regardless of circumstance, and that people and "media" are "manufacturing" perceptions into a distorted reality - I'd suggest that much is kept under wraps - and the policy regularly close ranks to defend themselves and dismiss criticism.

That practice is very old news. But the practice remains. Unless senior police officials publicly acknowledge an issue (as they now have), we can expect the status quo - of same old take down procedures - however "safe" tasers may be "claimed" to be - if without other operative factors involved. The taser was one aspect to this fatality - plainly - an outcome of a compound proceedure as final and deadly as the discharging any gun. Cocaine alone didn't end this mans life.

kit, read the sun and the province. you'll find all kinds of examples of stories they've broken that haven't been by other media sources. being the only dailies in town, that comes naturally. everytime they do this though, they don't write an article about how they got it first and how media sources are lazy, inept or in cahoots with the cops. a better way to follow-up on a story is to write about the issue, not a conspiracy theory.

With all respects your nom de plume.. No "consipracy" theory here. Plain, empiral, public behaviour as consitently demonstrated by the VPD, its union, and its chief, is what being commented on. I'll pass on the "regular" read of sun, however; Never pay for old news from the ol' boys. Journalists that maintain a focus, and insist on accountability and credible action, is what interests me.

If it was my "post" that read like the "police" and the "taser" are "above question," it seems like you're the one having a "difficulty" "uderstanding" the "substance" of my "post." The point is that it's easy to lay the blame on the poice or the taser, but if the officer had used his Beretta 9mm, there would be no question that the victims had died from a gun shot wound. Personally, if given a choice, I'd take 50,000 volts over a bullet in the chest any day. A small percentage of people die when administered general anaestetic before surgery, but I digress. I would never imply that the police were "above question."(Where the quotation marks come from is a complete mystery, but maybe I've missed the "substance" of you're "post") I believe police, politicians, bureaucrats, corporate CEOs, and anyone with a large amount of power for that matter, should come under the most intense scrutiny to hinder or limit any abuse of that power. I'm sorry if this seems rude or snide, but lately people around me and people in general never want to actually read or listen to what I have to say, they'd rather confound my messages and intentions and pervert them to make their opinion right, and more importantly make my opinion wrong. What we must remember is that we're all on the same side. Adversarial rants and postings don't contribute positively to debate or discussion(What I have been slowly learning the hard way over the past few months). All they do is distort the issue at hand, and we may begin to lose sight of what is really important. People lost their lives at the hands of the police. People lost their sons, their brothers, their fathers, and their friends. We can read about it and discuss it and get frustrated and be critical, but I will never be so arrogant(anymore) to think that I know what really happened. The only people who really know are the officers and other people involved, and the deceased. News and history only exists in text. I wasn't there. You weren't there. So what really happened? From what I gather some people lost their lives, tragically, and most likely unnecessarely. But one can be pretty sure that if the officers involved actually intended on using lethal force, they probably would have reached for their Beretta, and not their taser. Hand-guns have a much worse track record than tasers. But the agenda has been set, and the taser debate goes on...

It's never a useless question to ask why people do not listen to one's opinion, if that should happen to be the case. Is it always "their" issue? But, as you say, one might be digressing.

As you suggest, "we went there". And dead people tell few tales. Stonewalls dont either. Inquiries do. That's the point. another CBC article this morning: http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/08/09/taser_040809.html

typo: we "weren't" there. (and 'luckilly' so on that).

Devil's Advocate: The Sun and Province are the only dailies in this town. The CanWest monopoly earns big bucks because people expect the papers to serve the public interest. So, public interest demands that these papers be held under close scrutiny - perhaps as close as that of the government or the police. Ask anybody who has been a part of the Sun or Province over recent years what the effects of newsroom cutbacks are. Morale stinks at these papers, and political interference by ownership doesn't help matters any. So when these papers miss the mark, the public needs to know.

To BK and Kevin James, It seems the only organization that keeps stats on Taser use is the manufacturer, Taser International. It claims more the weapon has been used more than 50,000 times in the field, and more than 100,000 times on volunteers. I haven't found independent verification of these numbers, but it's probably safe to say a lot of people have been Tasered. Every time a Taser is fired, it records the time and date of the incident. According to the Taser website, "The enhanced dataport capability records the time, date and duration of each discharge with the temperature at the time of use for the last 2,000 firings." The Taser also allows police departments to track which officers fired the weapon. I asked the VPD for statistics on the department's Taser use and for the incident reports. I was refused. The Vancouver Sun reported "Graham said he doesn't have statistics on the number of times the Taser has been used in Vancouver, and now wants the department to log every time the weapon is withdrawn from its holster." Graham later wrote the VPD has used it 54 times. A few American cities have required public reporting of Taser use. Analysis done by The Denver Post showed that 90 per cent of Tasered subjects in that city were unarmed at the time. Thirty-three out of 230 Denver residents who were shocked were never charged with a crime. The Post reports, "Denver police have used the jolting devices to stop dangerous suspects and disarm the suicidal. But potentially lifesaving incidents represent just a sliver of Taser uses since the weapon was distributed throughout the department last year. More often, Denver police have used Tasers to force people to obey their orders, to shortcut physical confrontations and, in several cases, to avoid having to run after a suspect."

A man died in Kingston, Ontario, on Sunday morning, August 8, several hours after being shot with a Taser. www.thestar.com /NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename = thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1092048385357&call_page id=968332188854&col=968705899037

the cops and the innocent citizens have no defence from jerks that break laws, drug dealing a#@holes that knowingly screw with peoples heads by selling them poison. Zapp'em!!!!!

I think I'm more interested in the side issue of self-promotion that has spawned. As a young media source, I think the Tyee would do well to gloat a little to reinforce that it is a credible and timely provider of news. The reminders in the article got a bit tiresome, true, but, as part of the new readership, I am curious to know how good the news I'm reading is. So, take a bow here and there. And you too devil, you have been keeping yourself well informed.

Not being a hopologist, it might be a mistake, but I think that the taser came into use because it was a relatively safe way to shoot a dangerous suspect without imperiling the officer. Nets, physical restraints, kubotans etc. require multiple officers and/or great skill and strength. Guns -- whether it is the voltage of a taser or the "stopping power" of hydrostatic shock as a projectile enters the meat -- are pretty much the safest option for the officer because they are effective at some distance. Even then it's not foolproof; a motivated person can cover the distance of a room and have his knife in your throat in about the time it takes to unholster and point a weapon. Basically, then, what is needed is to see if there is a gun that is even less harmful to the suspect than a taser. Concussion grenade, maybe.

Let's just say it is the taser, what is your recommendation in place of the taser. We all can be arm chair quarter in the safty of our home. If it is my husband or father that has to go out there looking for trouble, that is exactly what policemen do, then if its not the taser I would tell him to shoot then ask question. Which weapon is more deadly? To the author, what was your most intense moment in your life, in last twelve month, in the last 24 hrs. Probably getting the wrong coffee from Starbuck. That's my comment, what a mile in our peace officer's before we all start belittling their efforts.

kit, hold firm to that belief that nothing good comes from other media and you can guarantee one thing, you'll only know what is written here. qwerty, it's not that the sun and the province missed the mark, i would suggest that it was because of the same said cutbacks that you're talking about that they just didn't know about it. I don't know whether either of you are in the journalism schtick, but if you were, you'd know that the things you miss often far outway the things you're hip to, especially when you're overworked and on short deadlines. I would imagine Dee had months to sit on this article and cross all his t's and dot all his i's. when you're on a firm daily deadline, you don't often have that liberty. appreciate what the sun and the province are, third rate daily papers, but i would imagine they would do a lot better if they had more resources. however, no amount of bitching is going to make that happen. for skulsky, this is a business not a newspaper chain. my comment was really only that bragging is a shitty thing to read in an article, something i didn't expect to see here. it belittles the accomplishment.

Nom de plume, if anyone held firm to any idea that "nothing good comes form other media" they'd be a simpleton. And presuming that another believes so would equally be a mark of a simpleton's mind. In lieu of that presumption, one can read the sun or province and purport to be comprehensively informed on the truths of any matter. Equaly sad are sappy apologist excuses on behalf of the dailies and posing as informed on the workings of the press. Let the local dailies argue for themselves (as if). Or just read their offerings uncritically, if you so wish.

I just wonder how many more people are going to die before we admit the obvious and ban tasers? God, its disgusting.

If being a police officer entails minimum risk, I submit that they be paid minimun wages.

But it requires maximum skill. I want officers who above all can hit what they shoot at. The danger of taser use is infintessimal compared to the danger of a stray bullet. I want our criminals to be properly shot by well-placed expansion rounds that don't overpenetrate.

Ken Sew, What are you saying? That only cops can judge other cops and everyone else should just shut up and not ask questions? Is it OK that people die in police hands from excited delirium, get beaten up in Stanley Park, get driven out of Saskatoon in the middle of winter or get dragged from jail and left to die in a doorway from hypothermia on a rainy Vancouver night? Is it OK for cops to erase evidence against Air India bombers, shoot unarmed native protesters in otherwise empty provincial parks and pepper spray CBC cameramen at protests? Should the coroners, prosecutors, police complaints commissioners, public inquiry officials and media examining these events just pack up and leave the cops to sort things out themselves? I don't care if cops have Tasers or Klingon death rays, so long as they use them judiciously. Anyone who has witnessed more than a few arrests in Canada will know that the vast majority of arrests involve zero force on the part of the police. But when things go wrong, the public has a right to ensure that mistakes or malicious actions aren't repeated. They're OUR cops goddamit. And we shouldn't let them forget it.

Oh, what a wonderful world it will be when these new policing tools inevitably fall into the hands of the criminals themselves. Yikes!

I feel like pointing out that just as violent takedown is the common element in these restraint related deaths, policing culture is a common element in all these violent takedowns. Many of these citizens aren't criminals at all. They're in some personal crisis. Mental illness, personal stress etc. Life is complex and difficult.

But police are trained to see the world in very unreal black and white ways because, although calming things and talking might work a hundred times, that hundred and first guy might kill you. So you never do it. You never shoot to wound, you never let things be out of control. You never give the 'perp' a chance to get you. It's a dangerous job, and a scary one, and it needs bravery and judgement and training and backup and tools. People, even innocent people do die in police hands, and it's terrible, but police die at the hands of the people they have to deal with too. It would be nice if they would stop using excessive force on people, but how will they accomplish it?

Can you really tell a cop, who keeps your kids safe and your house relatively unburgled, that he has to increase his own personal risk? Not me. I think they have every right to minimise the risk they take. The taser is an attempt to be less than lethal, and that's good. Extra training might help. But somebody please tell me exactly how they could deal differently with these situations without increasing their own risk of injury or death in the line of duty? We need specific suggestions here.

I have read most of these comments, and like most public discussions, issues tend to skew a bit, or become polarized. I won't comment generally on whether or not a Taser is an appropriate weapon over, say a baton. I'm a pacifist, and didn't much like hearing my Dad tell how he had to weild a baton as an Military Policeman in the Army. The whole issue of "necessary force" is difficult to generalize, so I won't. Instead, my concern is for Bob Bagnell and his family. I knew Bob on and off over the last four or five years, and had watched him slowly improve from a heroin addict through methadone, and beyond. He had built some kind of stable life for himself. It sucks for him and everyone connected, that he got coked out on his birthday, and got in the situation he did. He had AIDS and some form of cancer, and wasn't too healthy in the first place. Who knows if the Taser was why his heart stopped? Maybe he was going to die of a coke overdose or from the AIDS or cancer anyway. I feel that the Taser is still a "new" weapon, and I'm a bit suspicious of it. Maybe our media is playing the "coverup" notes a bit hard re: the coroner's inquest regarding Bob's massive levels of coke at the time of his death, but it sounds too quick to absolve the Taser use as a factor, and that sounds unbalanced to me. If the Taser was actually a contributing factor in why Bob's heart stopped, we should be prepared to be critical of relying on it too heavily. I want our cops to be as safe as possible too, but personally, I'd think rather get a baton to the head than have 50K of juice go through me. http://ejohnlove.blogspot.com/2004_08_01_ejohnlove_archive.htm l

Yes, well now that Chief Jamie Graham has the complete background on poor Bob we can expect to have him host a news conference saying that Bob wasn't in great shape leading up to the night in question, thus he participated in his own death, or was headed that way anyway, or any other handy rationalization that suits him and his colleagues. Not unlike Berg, et al, the VPD PR tactic is to release the dead perp's priors to the media as why of justifying their extreme, and in many cases, deadly actions: "see, he deserved it!" For example, last year, like they knew anything on the guy before they shot him while he was sitting in a car. And so what if they had. Is it the VPD's policy now to shoot first and smear later? No one's fooled by these transparent tactics, or at least they shouldn't be.

like kj i can see tasers used by persons how to say attempt to modify other persons behaviour a threat or a tool, a net deployed like a animal capture system is to me a prefered method . unless of course the hells angels already use it?