Fair trade vs Free trade

Dobbin misses the mark here in that NDP is aganst the free trade deals of old and is supporting fair trade with international partners who share similar codes of international ethnics - fair labour laws, health and safety laws and environmental laws. It's about the race to the top rather than the bottom - that is fair trade.

The sole purpose of the "free

The sole purpose of the "free trade" racket is the free movement of imaginary capital to colonize, enslave and ensure world domination and dictatorship by the international 1%.

Every disgusting detail we predicted as the consequences of this fraud when Mulroney was pushing his FTA in 1987-88, came true.

Our living standards dropped to hell, and the whole world is now being enslaved by the 1% corporate mafia, while 30 million die of starvation every year.

Ed Deak.

Have to disagree Mr Dobbin

The NDP is not losing support on the Left. Its instead losing the support of all those disillusioned ex-Liberals who gave up on the party after Martin, Dion and Ignatieff.

They see the Trudeau name which gives them warm and fuzzy memories of their younger days. They hope Trudeau is a centre-left type life his father.

I think they'll be disappointed but regardless, your prescription is to increase the appeal of the party to those who already support it. Mulcair's seems to be to find a way to appeal to ex-Libs as well as strong Dippers.

By the way, the irony of Trudeau the other day saying Canadians want substance over style was hilarious.

Look!

The main objective here is to get rid of the Harper government - a government which has the support of less than 40% of the voting electorate.

Supporting Liberals is, really, little more than supporting Harper 'lite' because, once in power, the Liberals were (and would be again) nothing more than puppets for Bay Street and corruption. The point simply is to make citizens aware that supporting Justin or whomever ends up leading the Liberals is a sure way to getting Harper another four years.

The NDP has never had power in this country - the suggestion that they would be nothing more than Liberals once in power is reasoning from NO evidence.

Free Trade

If the NDP are going to stick to their previous positions on free trade etc. they will never achieve power which I assume they now want to do. Its great to hold on to your misguided beliefs its another thing to come up with policies that will replace those beliefs. If we are going to be very selective on which country we will do free trade with then we better have alternative ways of selling our products. Otherwise the NDP will remain simply a third place protest party.

eastcoast

The problem with your view is that assumes most Canadians support the types of free-trade deals that have been signed.

The thing is, they don't.

As for "protectionist, socialist rhetoric", that would be the stuff that built this country. That rhetoric produced a high standard of living.

Whereas our median incomes have not increased since free trade was enacted 24 years ago.

So I would say its the rhetoric of the uninformed that has led this country down the path to oblivion.

The NDP lacks the vision to cure sweet fcuk all

in this country, and Mulcair is another politician who jabbers on and on and offers no substantive change.

Of course the NDP supporters will be in here saying otherwise, yet however the vote is spread out between the parties, arguing the merits of catholicism over protestantism only appeals to the believers. To others who see the game for what it is and like politics and the party system it is baseless, unprincipled hypocrisy.

Yes Murray, you have the finger on the pulse of NDP ers

There was a good crowd in Nanaimo yesterday to hear Jim Manly talk about his voyage to Gaza on the Estelle recently. There was that rare phenomenum of spontaneous and heartfelt dialogue in the room. It was about disappointment with the NDP, how they play it safe and don't stand for anything anymore, in case it would lose them votes. I heard about the longing for guts and integrity in our politicians... Hooray for the whistleblower on the rank corruption of Quebec's mayors and city halls. Lousy rotten crooks.

For the "free" traders

What Canadian products need a free trade deal to be sold abroad?

And what great imported products would we be denied without them?

Like a broken record - remember those - I hear...

... "we better have alternative ways of selling our products". We don't sell any products other than natural resources now! First we have to make some products to sell and that will never happen until we stop selling our finite resources to foreign interests and buy back their cheaper made finished product junk.

International trade, between

International trade, between nations and peoples, has been going on for thousands of years.

When I was in the manufacturing business in Vancouver I was buying, importing, exporting and selling products from and to the USA, all the time.

The stores were full of imported products, but also of hundreds "Made in Canada" by Canadian businesses and labour.

There were some small tariffs on some products, mainly to equalize the costs between our and slave economics and everybody was doing OK.

I was captain of the Nissan car rally team in the '60s and we're still doing business with Japan, without any free trade crap.

Quite obvious that the main reason for the "free trade" racket has always been the free movement of capital, the destruction of democratic decision making powers and economic control by the multinational corporate mafia.

I would like to hear any good "conservative" come and say that we're better off now than before this crime wave.

Ed Deak.

They all ignore the economic house of cards

and blindly pursue the continuous growth paradigm.

Demonstreations in Europe over austerity measures; will soon appear in Canada when the cheap credit is no longer available and the global credit card bill is due!

Dobbin stuck in the past

The Dobbin opposition to trade appears to be an opposition rooted in protecting union jobs.

Where wages in an industry of sector are way out of line with OECD levels, that we have to change those salaries, even if that means some sacred cows will have to work a little harder for a little less.

People are scrambling to get by out there. Unless the NDP recognizes that scramble and stops trying to protect big unions - in particular in the public sector - then it will vanish once again into the teens of its hard core supporters.

The NDP has always been under the tight control of big unions. If it wants to thrive it will have to throw off that control and become a progressive party that works for all Canadians, not just for big unions.

Defeating Harper's extreme right wing

Harper's biggest fear is that the Liberals and NDP will form a coalition because they would defeat him and end his extreme right wing agenda. He prorogued parliament when this possibility presented itself a few years ago and raged on about the evils of such an act successfully using attack ads.

Further evidence that a coalition of the center right and left wins over extreme right wing agendas happened in the US when Obama won the recent election. He brought together a coalition of his own including seniors, students, blacks, Hispanics, low income earners, women and moderate religious groups representing the majority of voters. The constant campaigning goes on in the US as well and despite all the money, attack ads and gerrymandering it didn't add up to a victory for their extreme right Republicans.

A coalition between the NDP and Liberals is the only way Canada will get rid of Harper's tea party agenda.

In fact, NDP governments have better fiscal records - period

When the only recovery in sight is on the basis of consumer spending you'd better hope there are some good union jobs around.

Umm?

NDP Liberal combined effort?

Seems to me that was tried and the Liberals are the ones who cried 'UNCLE'.

Liberals simply can't be trusted.

oldcrank

Why be against good paying jobs?

How far down should the median wage go before you say its low enough? The median wage in BC has yet to rise above where it was when free trade was enacted. It fell 5% even between 2001 and 2005 when Campbell was attacking unions, privatizing assets, shipping raw resources out of the province and declaring that we were enjoying a "golden decade".

Some of you guys need to take your heads out of your a**es and do a little research.

Funny thing is that the

Funny thing is that the conservative/fascists are always trying to cut the wages and feed the 1% with billions of stolen profits, while at the same time are screaming for more GDP and "sales".

I was paying my guys the highest possible wages, often more than what I was taking home, but they were the best, because happy workers are the best producers.

Hard to understand ,isn't it ? Why should happy workers work harder?

Ed Deak.

Frank

How do you come to that conclusion? By reading posts on the Tyee?

Let's look at BC's opinion and the latest Nanos poll from 8 weeks ago:

1. Canada-US Free Trade Agreement:

Better Off - 33.8%
Worse Off - 19.9%

2. NAFTA:

Better Off - 29.0%
Worse Off - 17.7%

3. Proposed Free Trade Agreement with the EU:

Positive - 40.6%
Negative - 7.6%

4. Proposed Asian Trans-Pacific Free Trade Partnership

Positive - 49.2%
Negative - 11.7%

To recap, BC'ers (as well as Canadians) obviously support the types of free trade deals that have been signed and look for similar deals with the EU and Asia.

Just da facts ma'am.

http://www.nanosresearch.com/library/polls/POLNAT-W12-T555E.pdf

Baloney

No one should be too concerned about union jobs which pay decent wages - especially given the fact that you're not complaining about what really IS a problem: That is, growing income inequality and the increasing concentration of wealth in the hands of the richest 1% in this country. It's hardly surprising that this has happened at the same time that there has been a similar concentration of corporate power among the 60 largest Canadian-based firms.

I won't worry about bringing down union wages until I see some responsibility on the part of management.

That's where the problem lies - make no mistake about it.

Hardly a surprise

Hardly a surprise that some Canadians think free trade is great - 39% of voters actually cast ballots for Pee Wee and his gang of cheaters.

You can't go wrong by betting on the stupidity of the Canadian voter - they've been casting ballots against their own best interests for years.

In fact, much of the short term 'advantage' from free trade with the US corresponds more or less exactly with low exchange rates. As energy and commodity exports began to form an ever larger proportion of this country's trade and as the value of the dollar rose against the greenback it is clear that much of what was seen as a positive 'result' of free trade agreements with the US and Mexico has been illusory.

If the US begins to attain energy self-sufficiency (which many predictions now expect) Canada will begin to suffer even more..and, as the Ontario Liberals learned today - we may more and more find our hands tied with respect to find ways to stimulate our own industry.

So Cool Hand..

..if those figures are true, why then are the Harperites unwilling to have a debate in the House or do any consultations with the public? I know the answer to that question but do you? What are they afraid of? What are you afraid of?

Luke

You and Nanos support what I said, as usual. Not one of the trade agreements you cite has the support of a majority of Canadians.

Why do you think that is?

Anyway, thanks for the help.

One example

Let's look at the biggie, the Canada-US trade deal. It has the support of 33%. The Conservatives get 39% support which means it has less support than the Conservative party.

I find that surprising, I would have thought support for the free-trade deal with the USA would have included all of the Conservative support and some Liberal supporters. After all, those two parties agreed to it. But apparently not.

Now let's look at the statements above. A couple of people stated that they believe the NDP should ignore the 67% that are either against the treaty, see no benefit or are unsure and instead join the Cons and Libs in chasing the 33% who support free-trade.

That's either bad math or bad politics. I'll let you guys figure out which.

Since support is only at 33%, and two parties are already chasing that demographic, I think its obvious the NDP should represent the people who aren't cheering free-trade deals with wide-eyed misguided glee.

tweedledee-dum-NDP??

The NDP have been actually Branch 3 of the Bay St Money Party running the country at least since the 1988 "free trade" election, in which he refused to try to do anything to stop the vote split *everyone* knew was coming that would allow Mulroney to 'win' the false majority and the "mandate" to sign the FTA. One can only hope people will start to catch on someday, and start on the only path that can save us from the new feudalism being imposed as 'we' watch helplessly - Democratic revolution, now or never - www.rudemacedon.ca/vgi/backgrounders/revolution.html .

G West - Not Baloney

If they're not they're blind. It's a two way street and all I did was address the traffic going in one direction. Greed is present on both sides.

Nobody said anything about bringing down union wages. The fight is going to be just to maintain what they have. That battle has already started in many union occupations.

Broadbent instructed all NDP

Broadbent instructed all NDP candidates in 1988 not to fight Mulroney's FTA, but to leave it to the Liberals under Turner.

I was told this by our local candidate and confirmed by others.

Ed Deak.

Obviously, I disagree

One of the only ways to address income inequality is to realign the 'rewards' mechanisms so that labour gets a larger return from its contribution to the profitability of firms who are sitting on bags of money waiting for the next opportunity to pick up random assets in the marketplace.

You may not have said anything about reducing union wages but the implication of what you wrote was absolutely clear.

Corporations usually borrow

Corporations usually borrow to pick up new assets, regardless how much they have stashed away, because then they can write off the loan payments as tax deductible "business expenses" and have the public pay for them.

Ed Deak.

You're right Ed

But the money pile corporations are sitting on (largely because of 'gifts' from a plundered taxation system) is enormous.

Here's an article you may have missed:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/07/the-5-trillion-stash-us-corporations-money-hoard-is-bigger-than-the-gdp-of-germany/260006/

Furthermore, I'd be less troubled about where the money came from if it were being used to develop new business, manufacture new products and employ new workers. A great many of the investments made by corporations today are nothing more than financial manipulations which never create a single job and may, in fact, lead to less employment.

Hope you're doing well.

Cheers.

NDP are way right of Liberal Light

Mulcair's leadership and his inner circle is making the NDP Conservative light. He has also muffled the reasoned voices of the left hand side of his caucus. His opportunity was to spend 3 years convincing Canadians that there are reasonable alternatives to the failed US corporate capitalist economic system that Harper advocates. Instead, he is rushing to show how much like Harper he is.
The next election is setting up to be a battle of personalities instead of a contest of philosophies. Mulcair cannot match Layton's appeal and his right wing approach will decimate the gains achieved. Sad!

NDP becoming Conservative light

Instead of offering alternatives to the failed US corporate capitalist economic system that Harper supports, Mulcair is desperately trying to show that he is "one of the elite".
If the next election becomes a personality contest, Mulcair will run a slow 4th. NDP will return to their traditional representation (or less) It's time for a massive shift. Mulcair is not the one to do that. The strong left side MPs have been muzzled. It's a shame.

The NDP have to be the alternative that Canadian's want and saw

in Layton. Mulcair doesn't even have to think all he has to do is read the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives all the science based policy alternatives their rational etc are all their-and all within capitalism so no one can call him a communist.
RR