Topic
Chilliwack school board's decision whether to axe Gideon bible giveaway raises an interesting funding opportunity.
Chilliwack school board meets tonight to reconsider allowing the distribution of Gideon Bibles in schools. Bible image via Shutterstock.
That's what an Ontario father is arguing in court against public school authorities. He goes too far. Here's why.
Partnership between education ministry and not-for-profit with billionaire partners raises concerns.
Signs mount that Canada's government is beholden to a religious agenda averse to science and rational debate.
Not so hasty. That's the advice I'd give the Chilliwack school board, which appears to be on the verge of ordering an about face for the Christian soldiers distributing Gideon Bibles in public schools.
The school board will be reconsidering its Bible giveaway scheme at a meeting tonight due to a somewhat tardy review of the B.C. School Act, which states schools must be "strictly secular and nonsectarian."
By "reconsidering" I assume they mean backtracking before someone sues. And I despair at such shortsighted thinking at a time when daily headlines warn us of shortfalls in education budgets.
Forget about fighting the New Crusades: this isn't a religious faux pas, it's a fundraising opportunity!
If the Gideons want the privilege of peddling their holy books to a captive market of susceptible tweens, we should charge them for it.
The way I see it, Christianity is a lot like Coke. No, not just because both leave a vile taste in your mouth. And no, not even because a case can be made for each of them as a health hazard. They're alike in that both pop and religion need to hook their customers young before their critical thinking skills kick-in and they develop better taste.
Minor gold mine
The Gideons aim their product at Grade 5 students for the same reason so many merchants focus on what is known as the tween market. From about 10 to 14 children are at their most vulnerable to brainwashing techniques that come under the umbrella of marketing. At the same time they're relatively independent and able to make a lot of choices about what they buy or buy into. Due to their vulnerability, they're not just a windfall now, they're often lifelong customers.
I wouldn't be surprised if the God squad gave the sugar pushers the idea to invade the schools in the first place, since religion has always made special efforts with kids. As the Jesuits like to say, "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you a man."
That's the reason television gets away with charging prime rates for the 30-second spots surrounding kids' cartoons. It's not like the poppets have much cash to call their own. Although the nagging skills of prepubescents in search of a Happy Meal are legendary, the ads also serve to create warm and fuzzy childhood memories that are associated forever with Froot Loops. Which explains why long past an age when you know better you catch yourself treating a broken heart with Oreos and chocolate milk.
Why, I ask you, are school boards giving purveyors of any product free access to this publicly owned goldmine?
It's often said that children are our most precious natural resource, and since Canada is a country founded on exploiting natural resources, I can't understand why no one else has spotted the obvious free market solution to the Gideon kerfuffle. Junk food sellers pay a premium for access to kiddies via school cafeterias and vending machines. Why should purveyors of junk ideas be treated any differently? That seems downright discriminatory.
But we have to act fast because the window on this opportunity is closing swiftly due to the usual suspects missing the big picture.
Selling the good news
High profile atheists like Hemant Mehta (The Friendly Atheist) are cheering Richard Ajabu, the parent who first protested the proselytizing in October. Then the B.C. Humanist Association got into the act, calling on Education Minister Don McRae to investigate the state of secularism in public schools. It seems the Gideon invasion of Chilliwack is just the thin edge of the wedge and there are signs of creeping religion in Powell River and Abbotsford too.
Meanwhile the Christians have been offering views like the one Art Monner expressed in a letter to the Chilliwack Times.
"Why is this irritating Mr. Ajabu's mind? I must say that Hindu, Muslim, etc. rituals are irritating Christian minds as well. Christians developed this country, not Hindus, Muslims, etc.," Monner writes. "Mr. Ajabu has only one honest solution: go back to his home country, practice his religion over there."
By the way, Monner reminds me that someone needs to tell McRae that it's time to improve the history curriculum and make sure citizens understand that Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms doesn't just guarantee freedom of religion, it guarantees freedom from religion.
Speaking of which, I'm not sure why so many of the faithful get the idea that freedom of religion gives them license to foist their crackpot notions on other people without so much as a by-your-leave.
Originally the laws were meant to prevent the state imposing its religious values on citizens. Ideally, we'd like to avoid any return to the excesses of rulers like "Bloody Mary" -- that was Queen Mary, the Catholic daughter of King Henry the VIII. She earned her nickname by slaughtering her Protestant subjects in a bid to get everyone singing from the same song sheet. Or possibly to get even with daddy for inventing a new religion and loving her sister best. Who knows?
A little boost
The point is we want protection from the possibility of, say, some prime minister becoming enamoured of some American fundamentalist church and trying to impose their loony views about women on Canadian society. Just for example.
Whenever religious disputes crop up I find that all respect for logic, facts, and common sense fly out the window. So it's easy for combatants in the holy wars to forget that the philosophical underpinning for democracy is to create a good life for everyone, however each of us defines it. Although we all define it as including a proper education, without which you have no democracy.
Since we seem to be running out of options for funding that, I'm happy to let the evangelicals spread the good news in our schools for fee. Ditto the rest of the preachers and peddlers of various and sundry stuff, since everyone's business relies on making converts.
Religions may celebrate the noble poor but they're inclined to be prosperous, which makes them excellent candidates for this funding project. Just consider the booty in the Vatican. Or Scientology's millions of auditing customers. And since many houses of worship sit on prime real estate while paying no taxes, they're often quite flush. With this little budget boost, I imagine we could be on our way to internationally competitive math scores in no time.
Allowing the market to decide whose holy book gets a berth in the vending machine isn't just more egalitarian, it's nicer. Money is impersonal, so there's none of the bigotry and general nastiness that arises whenever we debate who has the best fairy-on-a-cloud. Naturally the atheist groups should feel free to fund access to the works of Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris.
I've approached one school board with my fundraising plan, but so far my notes have been met with a surprising silence. That's why I'm making my vision public before it's too late.
I fear the Chilliwack school board's meeting tonight may get religious products banned definitively from public schools before all of B.C. has a chance to consider it as just another consumer choice in the marketplace. Aren't they just as deserving of paid access to young customers as, for example, McDonalds?
Of course there will always be some parents who let their kids wear designer duds and tote iThingys while finding it repugnant to admit their little darlings as just another target market. But I think most citizens will enjoy the irony of letting more organizations pay for the opportunity to expand their clientele while funding the only real defence against an increasingly predatory marketplace: a good education. ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
Read more: Rights + Justice, Education,
54
Login or register to post comments
mxh
27 weeks ago
/LOL what an idea.
I loved this. Priceless. However, I don't agree. I don't believe that anyone, secular or sacred, should be allowed access to our children. Certainly not our elementary aged children. I'm afraid I don't even agree with letting companies sponsor signs in gymnasiums or for whole schools. Nothing.
Our children can access advertising quite easily enough without the school system shoving it down their throats as well.
/irony " may god have mercy on their souls" /irony.
robio
27 weeks ago
Critcal Thinking Teaching Opportunity
You've given me a fabulous idea for a chance to teach critical thinking in a practical, real world, and hilarious setting. But why limit yourself to one peddler of fuzzy thinking?
Why not set up an entire fair tabled by proponents of woo-y, faithful, and evidence decificent thought, no matter the type. Invite all religions, major and minor; anti-vaccine pushers; creationists; global warming deniers; astrologers; Complimentary and Alternative Medicine practitioners; and alien-abduction, sasquatch, and ghost chasers, etc.
Have some classes that teach students about logic, evidence-based reasoning, and the scientific method - get local scientists and skeptics to help out (they are super friendly!).
Pack all the fuzzy thinkers into the gynasium (being sure to charge well above market rate for things like space, craft services, and oxygen) and give them tonnes of table room for their flashy and indoctrinating marketing material. Unleash the evidence hungry young students into the gym and let them tour around for a couple of hours. At the end of the entire affair ask them to write an assignment about what they learned in their logic classes, what they heard in the gym and if they had changed any of their beliefs because of it, and their reasons for changing their belifs or not.
At the end of the day, the event will at least pay for itself, students will be armed with practical skills and knowledge that will serve them massively throughout their lives, and there's the off chance that the peddlers of pseudoscience, faith, and unexamined thought will actually realize why they were allowed to join the fair in the first place.
Hakuin
27 weeks ago
The free market
http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=1
caber1
27 weeks ago
Very nice. I like it.
Very nice. I like it.
Overcomer
27 weeks ago
Gideon Bibles
Shannon Rupp wrote: "I'm not sure why so many of the faithful get the idea that freedom of religion gives them license to foist their crackpot notions on other people without so much as a by-your-leave."
It strikes me that you have a double-standard. You give yourself the right to share your opinions on the Bible and religion, but you don't want Christians to have the right to share their beliefs. You want children to be raised without the Bible so that they will grow up believing as you do. But you don`t want Christians to influence them to believe as they do. That`s a double standard as well as an infringement on the rights of people who believe in God.
Please note that the Gideons have always offered their Bibles for free. In other words, they aren't peddling them to make money as you suggest. To represent them as `money-grabbers` is both incorrect and unfair.
Secondly, people are not forced to read the Bibles made available to them in schools, hotels, or wherever. Therefore, I think the word "foist" is inaccurate and, again, unfair. The books are offered and people. including kids, can take or leave them. No coercion is involved.
Lastly, if you are in a building that is on fire and you know the one and only exit from it, would you run out of that exit and leave everybody behind to perish? Or would you tell everybody you meet where that exit is and how they can get to it? I hope you would choose the latter.
Christians share the Bible with others because they know the one way out of the fire. You have the choice to remain in the burning building if you want, but I do think it's wrong for you to prevent other people from learning about the exit to safety.
unk harry
27 weeks ago
ABC
I wonder if a teacher brought in the Torah or Koran to illustrate diversity, if they would be so mercilessly slagged as this article does. Or is it ABC--"Anything But Christianity". To all you hand-wringing vigilantes...bah.
Kevin Dale McKeown
27 weeks ago
A Sure Sign!
It's a sure sign that Shannon Rupp is developing into a fine satirist when the whack-a-doodles don't "get it". She's pulling your leg folks!
JR
27 weeks ago
NO religion
We either have ALL religions represented or NO religions represented in our schools. With the number of faiths, creeds, beliefs etc. it makes far more sense to NOT ALLOW ANY religion in schools.
Hakuin
27 weeks ago
If we tax them
We would have a pool of funds to pay their victims with. I saw something the other day claiming the church tax exemptions in the USA totalled over $70,000,000,000.00 annually. Even here it has to add up to better than pocket change. We could take that cash and spend it on therapy and counselling for those raped as children by priests, the victims of ritual genital mutilation (male and female), on those assaulted or murdered for being gay at the instigation of priests, on programs for women in general since 90% of self-described religions here have done all they could to keep women down- oh, the list is endless.
Most of all, we could get something back for the insult to our collective intelligence.
Steve Cooley
27 weeks ago
Straight and Crooked thinking
Emotionally loaded words.
Normally articles on this site are well written, meaning they rarely pick adjectives and adverbs that slant the tone of the argument. This article is an exception to the usual level of argument found here. I will copy and paste several instances of prejudicial language.
privilege of peddling their holy books
the God squad
purveyors of junk ideas
Gideon invasion of Chilliwack
signs of creeping religion in Powell River
gives them license to foist their crackpot notions
trying to impose their loony views
The example I remember from English 100 many, many years ago - Shackled in an outworn creed - Faith of our Fathers. Two statements with nearly identical objective meaning and vastly different subjective meaning.
Skywalker
27 weeks ago
@ Overcomer, with respect..
You state, "You give yourself the right to share your opinions on the Bible and religion, but you don't want Christians to have the right to share their beliefs." Now hold on there! Stating an "opinion on the Bible" here on this site is NOT the same as handing out a portion of the Bible to kids in school. School is not the proper venue for any religion to present its views unless it is done in the context of learning about all religions. You might start considering if copies of the Quran are next.
You then state, "You want children to be raised without the Bible so that they will grow up believing as you do." Dead wrong again. That is not what is being said. Religion is the parental domain not the schools. Christian parents can and should influence their children but we might disagree on how that influence should take place so no, you are wrong again when you state, "But you don`t want Christians to influence them to believe as they do."
There is no double standard, no infringement of the rights of people who believe one theology over another.
The problem seems to be that some religious groups think they have the right to promote their beliefs in a public school system but would get mightily upset if the same right were granted to any other group.
If the religion can not survive without this kind of prociletizing in public schools, maybe the folks need a rethink what is happening in their churches.
titus_steerpike
27 weeks ago
The Bible is a Requirment for Education
Sorry to jump in the middle of all this amusing religion bashing, BUT i need to point out, regardless of what you believe, the Bible is one of the foundations of western literature. Along with Roman mythology, it is the "pallete of paints" that so many great works have been composed of. It is to English Lit, what the periodic table is to chemistry. I really dont think anyone can grasp the meaning behind western literature and indeed philosophy, without a very firm grasp of the Bible. For this reason the Bible NEEDS to be taught in school. It's not a religious issue at all. Its a matter of proper education.
Hakuin
27 weeks ago
Of course
The godsbotherers want access to your children! The chances of adults falling for their codswallop is greatly diminished because they have life experience. And there is nothing a priest hates more than an empty collection plate.
Absolutely no superstition in our schools! Let one in and the $cientologists will be right behind them.
Hakuin
27 weeks ago
Of course
The godsbotherers want access to your children! The chances of adults falling for their codswallop is greatly diminished because they have life experience. And there is nothing a priest hates more than an empty collection plate.
Absolutely no superstition in our schools! Let one in and the $cientologists will be right behind them.
Sine Nomine
27 weeks ago
Amusing article, but...
There is a real danger here, that the article only begins to reveal. I think exposing children to religion is fine, if that is their parent's choice, but not in public schools and never at the expense of a solid science education, which is really lacking now.
I think any attempt to introduce religious doma into the school system should be crushed swiftly, publicly, and if necessary - brutally.
Hakuin
27 weeks ago
Something else we better deal with:
http://ffrf.org/news/news-releases/item/16091-ffrf-sues-irs-to-enforce-church-electioneering-ban
Why do we always have to wait for the Americans?
Skywalker
27 weeks ago
@ titus
Not bashing any religion, but then according to your view there should be a copy in the school library as well as a copy of all the other sacred books. You can't use the "literature" argument to hand out copies of one and not all the others.
Hakuin
27 weeks ago
Which translation Titus?
Of course a proper education in English requires the whole canon. But that is NOT what we are talking about here.
Perry
27 weeks ago
Teaching children one
Teaching children one religion is indoctrination, teaching children about all religion is inoculation (against the God virus).
The right to religious freedom necessarily includes the right to freedom from religion, otherwise it is meaningless. That goes for children too. Parents do not have the right to deny their children religious freedom, which is what they do when they spiritually coerce and indoctrinate their naive minds with dogma that prevents them from making their own factually informed decisions on religious matters.
That not only denies the child's right to religious freedom but it denies or at least impedes the child's right to an open future if that indoctrination effectively closes their mind into adulthood and prevents them from making their own free and fully informed decisions on religion. That is the meaning of that Jesuit saying: give me a religiously unaffiliated child until the age of 7 and I will give you a Catholic adult.
The best way to protect children's religious freedom rights is to teach basic religious literacy, explaining the basic history and beliefs of the major religions. They obviously can't all be true, and children will quickly learn this if given the chance. This could be done in social studies class or a religion education course like the new course in Quebec.
But above all, critical thinking skills must be taught and developed in children from the beginning. They must be taught how to ask the right questions, which is far more important than knowing the right answers.
Shannon Rupp
27 weeks ago
Excellent News
Last night the Chilliwack school board decided to develop a policy on how to handle the distribution of religious materials. It's due in March 2013 and I'm hoping they'll be open to my view on the fundraising options.
Hakuin
27 weeks ago
I agree the history of organized religion
should be taught to all our children. The wars, the blood sacrifices, the auto da fes, the rapes, the tortures, the book-burnings, the child-abductions, the mutilations, the acid-flinging, the suppression of science, the censorship. the warping of human sexuality, the wasted lives, the promulgation of ignorance, the enslavement, the squandered potential, the exhalation of the worthless, the humiliation of the humane....
Yeah, teach ALL of it. Every bit of it. I suppose we can take the money from taxing the churches and use it to pay for the therapy for the kids when they learn what mummy and daddy have really been up to.
woodworker
27 weeks ago
All religions.
I am all for keeping all religions out of the schools. Especially the atheists. they are the most pushy of all. Just look at the above comments. Purveyors of hate and intolerance worse than I have ever seen. They just can't stand the thought that someone might believe something different.
Bob Watts
27 weeks ago
Freedom from religion.
How about buy every kid a bike!
I got a booklet forced in my face by an old lady pushing jesus at me again today.
How about I go knock on their doors every weekend, and force a joint and a condom on them.
This religious crap is forced on all of us, for life.
Go away...
Let the kids buy their own dam bibles.
PS: Gideon bibles paper is great for rolling large joints.
A gift from God I say!!!
davhar
27 weeks ago
the Wisdom Traditions are many
Interesting piece and commentary. Personally I think that some sort of comparative religious / mythological studies should be available to tweens in the school system. It's very important stuff that they should be exposed to in the social academic setting that is junior high. It is the stuff of historical significance that is still with us and kids should be challenged and encouraged to think clearly about the various issues and to question the worldviews expressed so that, indeed, they would question their own.
We should not let the fundamentalists roam the hallways of our minds thinking they speak for God whom we then reject, and rightfully so. The narrow-minded doctrines and dogmas are of the conservative ways of long ago, written by men in robes who never left the valley. They did not see across the ocean or into the future that is filled with great diversity of thought and culture, and we should not hate them for their ignorance, nor their followers, but continue to evolve.
But one thing we can be sure of is that the way we see the world begins with the story behind the eyes we see through. And everyone should be exposed to the great stories that propelled and steered the human journey towards a better world, however many times we crashed and burned. Conflicts aren't going to go away but fundamentalisms of all stripes most certainly will. And narrow-minded know-it-alls of all sorts will be challenged as the love for diversity takes its rightful place.
Hakuin
27 weeks ago
:) yeah woody
that's right, them damned atheists and their holy wars!
zanyjudy
27 weeks ago
It's happening in many places...perhaps insidiously...
An article appeared in the Vancouver Sun last spring (I think it was) about University Hill school allowing/encouraging young evangelistic - which basically means 'Christians responding to their belief that all peoples should be converted' volunteers to help with homework and other study assistance for its students. I was scandalized.
And in Mission, some local secondary schools promoted free 'parenting' seminars sponsored by 'Focus on the Family' paid instructors...and 'Focus on the Family' is an American fundamentalist corporation that, among other things, advocates corporal punishment for children, based on a verse in Proverbs that was written in the Iron Age....
I am an ordained Christian minister but I believe that if religion is to be brought to schools it should be in the form of Comparative Religion courses such as those offered in Newfoundland. This deeply Catholic province recognizes that the more our understanding is deepened the more we will wage peace among ourselves.
irth1st
27 weeks ago
Perfect
If the Christians want to peddle their ideology they can surely wait until our children are adults.
There is enough corporate religion in our public schools already.
Shannon is bang on and the language used was necessary to convey the disgust many of us feel towards any attempts to brainwash our vulnerable children. Especially the self-righteous Christians.
However, a full scale curriculum that addresses the beliefs of all religions would be appropriate. Including some of the horrific events that have happened due to insane religious doctrines. How about teaching them about the Holocaust or the Crusades or the ethnic cleansing wars in Africa?
How about explaining to them why we stole all the native children away from their families just a few decades ago and that was to teach them to be Christian. OH MY DOG! But "god" loves everyone we are reminded by the righteous...
Maybe more important would be to help children learn about spirituality rather than "religion".
Loved the article.
Skywalker
27 weeks ago
For woodworker
In your last post you demonstrated a fallacy which colours any debate on religion. That is that only atheists see something wrong with one group attempting to indoctrinate students, from all kinds of religious backgrounds, with one selected religious belief. It is confrontational and the kind of in-you-face action that we usually attribute to extremist Muslims. Just because you can't turn your brain off when you go to church doesn't mean you are necessarily an atheist.
Hakuin
27 weeks ago
better than a third of a million posts so far
enjoy:
http://www.reddit.com/r/atheism/search?q=atheism&sort=relevance&restrict_sr=on
pwlg
27 weeks ago
God help us, for christ sake
Am I missing something here? I read this article as humour, an author with tongue in cheek.
Tranquillo hermanos!
Bob Watts: I have a name for those who use bible paper to roll large joints: "Holy Rollers".
Okanagan Orchardist
27 weeks ago
Which is the better route?
From Titus --"For this reason the Bible NEEDS to be taught in school. It's not a religious issue at all. Its a matter of proper education." And the Koran as well? Or the "Book of Mormon?"
Perry says: "Teaching children one religion is indoctrination, teaching children about all religion is inoculation (against the God virus)." Now this makes more sense than all of the comments of the Bible promoters.
Brought up by religious parents, attending religious schools til the 11th grade, I turned my back on all of it a long time ago. However, most of my fellow travelers probably still attend church regularly. This is the kind of brain-washing that frequently happens with young, susceptible children. It lasts a lifetime.
It's a tough question, though. We know that more people have been killed throughout history because of religion, and it continues today. It would be interesting, however, to make a study of Russia's people after decades of keeping religion out of schools. Are they the better for it?
frank2
27 weeks ago
A solid understanding of all
A solid understanding of all major religions should be taught to all students, including those in sectarian schools or home-schooled.
We could argue which religions are "major," but they might include: Christianity (say 2 variants), Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism (maybe 2 variants), at least 2 "traditional" religions (including a First Nations' belief, and an African religion), and, for "balance," atheism. Maybe others would offer different selections...
As a result of such education, the kids might have more understanding of the world around them == and perhaps some intuition about the variety of answers which might be provided to a large variety of important questions not (at present) susceptible to empirical tests...
Hakuin
27 weeks ago
Orchardist:
Modern English derives from several rootstocks. Shakespeare and the King James version of the xtian bible are ABSOLUTELY essential reading for any English speaker who wishes to know where his or her daily speech comes from. This is a simple fact, it is not arguable and it has nothing to do with invisible sky fairies.
Bob Watts
27 weeks ago
PWLG I love that!
I went to an all Christian Boys School for 8 years, they beat the hell out of me.
The beating where all about saving my eternal soul, and the heck with my human life.
Being Disabled adult I had another christian sadist that beat my mind and spirit.
I no longer believe in God. I have been on the edge of death 3 times now and I do not pray and that is such a great feeling of relief to know that death is OK, to just blink out, feels fantastic, just no fear.
In the boys school it was always about fearing God, no thanks.
If God is all powerfull and all loving why did God create the Devil and why not get rid of the devil. Why are babies born with cancer, or blind. I love my kid and would never harm them especialy for a distant relative Ate an Apple, give me a break!
God and religion just do not make sense.
World War 3 will be 110% based on religion.
God help us, ya right!!!
Hakuin
27 weeks ago
Could have been worse Bob
Could have been worse
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/12/world/asia/australia-abuse-scandal-attard/index.html
But you won, they lost.
:)
titus_steerpike
27 weeks ago
skywalker & kahuin
I would not be outragged if someone gave my son or daughter a calculus book. I would certainly not be outraged if they gave her a bible.
Schools indoctrinate your children to the morals and values of our culture. Morals and values that have become completely disassociated with the past. Our culture is currently drifting without an anchor. Only a fool would think that it will always drift in positive directions. There is value in Christian and Pagan belief, it is our anchor to the past. I really can not fathom where this massive push to send us off the cultural cliff really comes from and why it has such broad mainstream appeal.
The Bible should be taught, any version, especially the Old Testament. It is the basis of western culture and the basis for 3 of the biggest world religions. All 3 religions have the same God, Yahweh. I bet if you ask most high school students, they wouldnt know that. Isnt that sad?
Also schools should teach other influencial religions such as ancient greek/roman, ancient egyptian, and perhaps spend some time on wiccan, hindu and buddhist. But those last 3 are the least influencial and thus should be taught much less than Christanity.
ubiquitous
27 weeks ago
OK Titus, I’ll bite. “Schools
OK Titus, I’ll bite.
“Schools indoctrinate your children to the morals and values of our culture”
Such as?
“Morals and values that have become completely disassociated with the past”
And for good reason.
“Our culture is currently drifting without an anchor. Only a fool would think that it will always drift in positive directions. There is value in Christian and Pagan belief, it is our anchor to the past. I really can not fathom where this massive push to send us off the cultural cliff really comes from and why it has such broad mainstream appeal”
I don’t think that any non-believer would argue that our culture is drifting in a positive direction. As far as "value in Christian and Pagan belief", I’d like some examples; however, I think I see where you’re going with this. There is this Christian notion that Christianity (and for some curious reason you throw in Paganism) has some ownership over some moral code. I like to ask Christians who hold to this notion if they can name me one moral that they abide by that was gained from their faith. Just one and I’ll give you my take on it without reference to a God(s) or a Holy Book. Morals do not come from a book; they come from our evolved ability to feel empathy and our general desire to treat others as we wish to be treated ourselves. That’s how a cooperative society functions and we are cooperative animals. Also, what do you mean by cultural cliff?
“The Bible should be taught, any version, especially the Old Testament.”
At first I thought you were kidding, but upon reflection, I agree, it should be taught, especially those verses in Exodus and Leviticus that endorse slavery, or stoning one’s child when they’re disobedient. It should also be taught in its historical context. Trust me when I say that evangelicals would stop their bellyaching pretty damn fast if the bible was taught in public schools within its historical context.
dorothy
27 weeks ago
just this...
"Parents do not have the right to deny their children religious freedom, which is what they do when they spiritually coerce and indoctrinate their naive minds with dogma that prevents them from making their own factually informed decisions on religious matters. "
This is an oxymoron, for there is no 'factual' foundation for religion. it is about belief. You do not condemn your children to be slaves of a religion, because you share it with them when they are young. Several people in my family were 'indoctrinated' with lutheranism and went away and adopted other religions - or none - as adults. I would also protest at the notion of children being naive. In fact, they remain some of the most difficult people to fool. Have you not heard that they are way better at opening 'child-safe' medication containers than most adults?
Personally, I distinguish between those religions that have been corrupted by being used as pretext for stealing land and wealth from others and mistreating them in never-ending ways, and those that are simply spiritual methodologies for better living, used in a personal way only. It goes without saying that the three great middle-east religions are largely kaput in that regard, Judaism perhaps less so, while most of the world's indigenous religions are of the personal and peaceful kind. We all have the right to not be inundated with anyone else's notion of the divine, but I don't hink you can enforce such a thing between parents and children. I would like to see how. It will untimately lie too close to thought-policing.
I don't think the bible and its reading is a prerequsite for understanding literature. If the Bible is referenced, then so is a lot of other stuff, and it's a question of using that fantastic tool, the internet, to widen one's perspective as needed. I would not accept that concern as a pretext for sneaking religious teaching in any form into schools. I cannot see anyone asking us to learn the entire Norse mythology and ritual in order to grasp Wagner's Ring, but it would be a parallel case. Stick to the rules.
Hakuin
27 weeks ago
plenty of articles like this, google them
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/Bible/How-The-Bible-Brought-A-Fly-In-The-Ointment-To-English.aspx
Hakuin
27 weeks ago
plenty of articles like this, google them
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/Bible/How-The-Bible-Brought-A-Fly-In-The-Ointment-To-English.aspx
Hakuin
27 weeks ago
:)
http://i.imgur.com/AdlT3.jpg
OwlRol
27 weeks ago
New opportunities
Hey, the Johos and Adventists are missing a superb opportunity. Forget going house to house and standing on street corners, go and pass out those leaflets outside the schools' front doors.
There were many complaints from those christian whiners to locally developed World Religion, senior high school courses.
Let's here the clamour when copies of the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita, or Hedges, Moral Landscape, get handed out at the front doors of our public schools. Or First Nations creation stories. Or African and Haitian voodoo.
Recall the opposition to Harry Potter because it teaches witchcraft?
It'll be the same bunch of hypocrites making all the noises.
Christian morality could be a good thing if it were actually practiced, but "Thou shalt not cheat" is not one of the 10 commandmants, so I guess it's OK.
If you want your kids to get a "Christian" education, send em to a Christian private school and pay for it (yeah it's reverse segregationism), but don't foist your beliefs over others, especially if it's in any way, part of the tax payers dime, because ultimately all that fund raising will involve some part of public funding. Just look at some of those Pepsi schools.
v2n
26 weeks ago
I think logic "flew out the
I think logic "flew out the window" in this article
Nowhere does the Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantee freedom FROM religion.
Nonsense. Pretending that religion does not exist at school only breeds ignorance and intolerance of others.
Our students ought to learn about religion in order to understand history, current events, and the people around them. You can't/shouldn't delete religion from history books, science, and literature, and pretend it has never been an important influence.
Yes, our students should be exposed to the tenants of major religions and non-religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, etc. While it should be done at an age-appropriate level, and some controversial subjects can be avoided, students should learn to listen to others and interact respectfully.
That is what secular public schools are supposed to be all about. Not pushing one particular religion or non-religion but accommodating everyone.
v2n
26 weeks ago
Freedom from non-religion please
I think logic "flew out the window" in this article
Nowhere does the Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantee freedom FROM religion.
Nonsense. Pretending that religion does not exist at school only breeds ignorance and intolerance of others.
Our students ought to learn about religion in order to understand history, current events, and the people around them. You can't/shouldn't delete religion from history books, science, and literature, and pretend it has never been an important influence.
Yes, our students should be exposed to the tenants of major religions and non-religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Atheism, Agnosticism, Humanism, etc. While it should be done at an age-appropriate level, and some controversial subjects can be avoided, students should learn to listen to others and interact respectfully.
That is what secular public schools are supposed to be all about. Not pushing one particular religion or non-religion but accommodating everyone.
davhar
26 weeks ago
Unto Thyself Be True
Personally I don't have a problem with religious groups providing free source material to school libraries and the like. It's just the proselytizing side of it that does not belong in our education system. Learning about religion and mythologies of all sorts is part of life, be they old or new age, about God or atheism, astrology or gambling in the stock market. So much of our perceptions of life is, and has always been, based on beliefs, as some here continually remind us. I mean life is very subjective after all...and learning how to think for oneself doesn't just happen. It needs to be encouraged and one is never too young for that.
You don't take philosophy at university to find a great mind to follow but to be challenged by the ideas presented. No kid of any age should be indoctrinated with anything whatsoever but encouraged to learn and grow, which is indeed to think for themselves. No material should be banned from their reading list, certainly not in such young and tender years of great confusion. They want to know more than what their hormones and classmates tell them. Or not.
I would suggest that anything that can help them realize that there's more to life than scrambling up the ladder of "he who dies with the most toys wins", is probably a good thing.
Hakuin
26 weeks ago
Time is all we have
Why should our most precious asset be stolen from us by forced listening to various superstitions? No religion in public schools and in exchange, no science, independent thought and evidence-based reasoning in the churches. Fair deal?
Hakuin
26 weeks ago
Time is all we have
Why should our most precious asset be stolen from us by forced listening to various superstitions? No religion in public schools and in exchange, no science, independent thought and evidence-based reasoning in the churches. Fair deal?
Hakuin
26 weeks ago
AND another thing
No more of the "a" word either! It's just a sneaky way to try to shoehorn nonsense into rational debate. I say that from now on we only accept "theist" and "normal human" as basic terms. Those of us being intellectually honest shouldn't be the ones saddled with an extra descriptor. Us normal humans were around long before you theists showed up with your superfluous and invented sky fairies. Calling someone "atheist" is like trying to weasel points for your insupportable chosen beliefs when the real issue is WHY you posit gods in the first place. Be honest now.
titus_steerpike
26 weeks ago
Censored by The Tyee
I responded to everyone's question but the Tyee chose not to post them.
Thanks for the discussion, there seems to be a lot of intelligent, active people here.
However the Tyees commenting format and random censorship make partcipating impossible.
v2n
26 weeks ago
theists are not normal, eh?
Hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of people in the world (and throughout known history) believe(d) in some supernatural power.
Everyone chooses to believe in something as an eternal creating power... Either matter has always been here and the universe created itself OR something supernatural has always been here and created the universe.
You might be fully convinced the former is true, but you must admit that you are in the minority.
davhar
26 weeks ago
Hakuin
"Us normal humans were around long before you theists showed up with your superfluous and invented sky fairies."
Obviously a silly statement . Most 'believe' in "God" unless taught to 'believe' otherwise.
Personally I think that any definition of God is, by definition, far too small.
Arguments generated by know-it-alls on either side, as such, aren't particularly helpful...unless they promote a greater questioning of life itself. Respecting the mystery should be encouraged because in the not knowing we are challenged to learn and that forces us to question ever more. May the questions never grow so tiresome that we should give way to easy answers that don't really answer much at all.
Hakuin
26 weeks ago
Progress!
http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2012/11/italian-catholic-church-to-pay-property-tax-from-next-year
Hakuin
26 weeks ago
V, dav:
http://www.theskepticsguide.org/resources/logicalfallacies.aspx
Come back when you are armed.
:)
Hakuin
26 weeks ago
Religion, such a blessing for the children
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/nov/18/female-genital-mutilation-circumcision-indonesia?CMP=twt_gu