Crazy

When I look at myself and what I do (I'd rather not need to) I find my behaviour skitsophrenic.
- I have the land line phone and the wife's cell sitting where I work and when they ring I am pissed off but still struggle to answer the damned things.
No wonder this asshole blew a gasket

Alive is not being racist.

Alive is not being racist. If it takes being politically incorrect to stand up for and protect some of the true freedoms that we take for granted in this wonderful tolerant country that I am so very grateful to have been born in, so be it. And as someone whose work in Vancouver takes me into the homes of new non-white immigrants (on a daily basis, for a decade now), I can tell you, Zalm, perhaps racism was at one time "uttered by only local Whites", but that is no longer the case. I hear things from students that make me cringe, haha- and trying to explain why they shouldn't say those things in public?? Well, let's just say it's quite tricky sometimes.

On learning the hard way

I take some exception to the statement, "People in Denmark learned the hard way, that being so generous in their immigration policies has backfired." If this is referring to what happened in Norway, and I think it is, what is this "hard way"? It is like justifying the killing of 76 innocents. This is suppose to teach anything other than a deranged person with limited mental capacity and a gun can do untold damage? If this is going to be thought of as a lesson, then the berserker wins. I refuse to believe that he is capable of teaching any lesson other than some folks are insane and should never have access to weapons. They should be put down permanently.

about being easy-going

Learning the hard way, could mean that you wind up seeing your way of life eroding , maybe because of our own lazyness, but eroding never the less; making way for different behaviours that more energetic groups push for, some of which may well in the long run become laws of the land.

Maybe it takes a "beserker" for us to wake up and realize that if we keep "playing fair" we get taken advantage of.

There will always be insane people with guns, this one happened to a particular hate for those who allowed such lax immmigration.

It would have been more healthy had the voters stated their feeling at previous elections, but as usual voters are the last to notice what is going on!

France

France's ban on burkas is simply put a political game. There are only about 600 women in all of France who wear them. 600 out of 64 million isn't worth the argument. It was simply that Sarkozy is being centre right is trying shore up harder right support before the coming election.

Further the difference between immigration in most European countries and Canada is huge. Canada's birth rate is too low to keep up our population thus either we have more kids or import. France has a crappy immigration policy full of holes. Canads I'm sure is full of holes but at least Canada has a system of points to at least try to figure out who might contribute. Anyone who has looked at the points given will realized its over simplified but it's better than nothing. France is struggling with the idea it is no longer a real world power, for some time now, and they have a very hard time finding jobs for whos born here let alone new comers. Further new comers are treated rather poorly. Living here I am often uncomfortable with the feeling of racism I see between the immigrant communities and the whites. Canada on the other hand needs immigrants and seems to have done a better jobs with immigration maybe because we have less old culture to protect? As for norway I don't know how their immigration policy works since I don't live there but It doesn't at all surprise me that immigrants aren't fitting in well. To me from the outside of European culture it seems like both sides are the problem. Some don't try to fit in to the host culture and some host people don't let them. Then both are bitter things aren't working out well.

As far as the gun toting crazy well, personally, sans any immigration issues I feel he probably would have found another cause worthy of his narcissist itchy finger. As far as I'm concerned it does take him killing people to wake me up the fact right wing parties all over Europe are gaining power is wake up enough thanks.

intentions of trying to fit in

I will fight just as hard to make sure the next generation doesn't have to wear burkhas, as I will fight to make sure nobody in this generation is told they aren't allowed to wear burkhas. This is a free country.

If someone wants to wear a burkha, or if someone chooses to live in a area where a particular non-official language is commonly spoken, or if someone chooses to limit their association with people of a different religion, or if someone chooses to not watch the same TV content or listen to the same music as you, then tough shit there is sweet fuck all you can do about it - As It Should Be.

Real rich to hear about how people should have to fit in, and we don't want burkhas forced on us, when potlatches were illegal and children were beaten severely for speaking the real native languages of this land. "a bunch of newcomers telling us what we should do" indeed.

By the way, speaking about fitting in to this bilingual country, I suppose your French is pretty good? Or are you also one of those who rails against the needless expense of respecting "our way" in that particular way? I offer the chance to admit to being a hypocrite, without even resorting to asking how well you speak Halkomelem.

Canada has the 2nd most square kilometers of land, the 3rd most cubic kilometers of fresh water, the 3rd most square kilometers of forest, the 7th most square kilometers of arable land, and only the 35th most people. Anyone who says we don't have room to welcome millions more people is being disingenuous at best, heartlessly hoarding our natural gifts at worst. I won't tell someone they have to stay in a war ridden hell hole and starve to death if they live that long because burkhas make me nervous.

>And it was these very

>And it was these very developments that ultimately served as an excuse for the fatherless and affluent video-game player Anders Breivik...< Andrew, would you mind telling me exactly what the presence of a father or the a lack of presence of a father has to do with any of the issues here? Throwing "fatherless' in as a descriptor seems a holdover from 50s playground taunts.
The presence of a man in the family is no guarantee of future wonderfulness. You need to apologize to every single mother who is doing her best to raise children.

I agree Mike- bring all the

I agree Mike- bring all the women from those "hell holes" here- only the women. Give them a chance to live a decent, truly free life. Allow those little Burkha wearing girls to grow up free of the fear of the wrath of a God that tells them they are not as special and as free and as intelligent as a man. Let those little girls grow up and CHOOSE whether they want to have children AT ALL, or whether they want only one or two who can have a decent life rather than 10.

Leave the men behind to figure out what they did wrong.

alive

Yes, utter shit.

This country was founded by religious zealots who had no intention of fitting in - that's why they left Europe. Amish, Hugenots, Pennsylvania Dutch, Lutherans, more religious nutbars came here to escape than you can shake a stick at.

Then you can follow that up with remittance men, criminals, freebooters, fishermen, all looking to make a fortune without worrying about the niceties of constructing a society. Good honest men and women concerned about creating a country have been in damned short supply all the years of this country's life. It's not generally until the second generation born in this country that the inhabitants really start getting a handle on how important it is that we all stick together and find common ground to agree on, or the country is toast. 'Twas ever thus, and likely will e'er be so.

This country has had religious courts for several decades - certainly since the 1950s. Can you guess whose? Yes, Montreal Jews formed the first religious halachah courts to deal with divorces, property rights, family law and business deals gone sour. It was only after the constitution was patriated in 1982 that these courts became somewhat illegitimate, and the Jews of Outremont began petitioning for the right to continue holding their courts, while the government hemmed and hawed and allowed as how religious justice didn't match natural justice, perhaps there might be some standing in some cases but not in others....blah, blah, blah. No... but yes... but no.

But when some Muslim stands up and says mebbe we can have Sharia courts too for our women, the wild-eyed, hairy-assed fart from Alberta goes off like a bottle rocket about racist, selfish sand niggers wanting it all their own way, all without knowing one lick of what's been going on in his own country for decades.

I'm not saying it's right - I'm saying you don't know shit about your own country, and that includes its inhabitants.

While youre at it, perhaps you can inform me exactly what's been going on in Denmark's that's so truly evil? Was it anything like in Switzerland where the 30-odd mosques that had already been built became the last ones you'd ever see built in that so-called bastion of independence and freedom?

"Perhaps Canada does not have a "culture" that goes back centuries, but we do have a way of life that has been accepted and considered "our way"; "

We do not. Everyone who ever came here had his or her own different way of life. Your idea of "our way of life" is a post-modern construct of a US political discourse that began with the election of George Bush Sr. and was avidly marketed by wealthy media-owners. I can't believe someone who ordinarily comments so well actually parrots this utter shit.

"My kids are individuals who learned a long time ago to make up their own minds,..."

Well, at least that's something. Then they won't learn utter shit from their old man.

Fii

"I hear things from students that make me cringe, haha- and trying to explain why they shouldn't say those things in public?? Well, let's just say it's quite tricky sometimes."

It's not tricky at all. Just say so. Your blunt speech will drive home the point about racism like nothing else will. And they will come to appreciate it, knowing you'll stand up for them in the same way.

But I want to suggest that the reason that racism by local whites is different from the racism you encounter on a daily basis (and I do believe it is daily because I encounter it too) is because you're dealing with the first generation to arrive in this country, bearing all the old prejudices they were raised with in their old country.

But the one important difference is that they arrive having no power, nominally as guests in this country, with no support or power base.

White Anglo-Saxon Protestants who immigrate here from England as my father's neighour did 30 years ago, arrive into a ready-made community bearing many of the same prejudices they arrived with a hundred years ago, scarcely any different from at home. Maybe they're "niggers" now instead of "wogs
but the power relationship is unchanged. WASPS have it all, and they know it.

That's why Vancouver and Toronto are becoming very interesting experiments in social reconstruction as one particular ethnic group becomes the majority, and further, begin to assume its own financial and cultural power.

Just like bosses can't have sex with their subordinates without risking charges of rape, favouritism or worse, neither can WASPS demand conformity of immigrants to a constructed image of a society which conforms only to their own prejudices.

...prejudices which tend not at all to be borne out by either facts or statistics. But that never bothered the average Conservative voter.

Hmmmm

Mebbe I should just let mikev speak for us all. Well said.

fii, if you leave all the men behind, you'll see a war to end all wars as men who have no prospects of marriage or family become the most desperate of all, without fulfillment, status or position in society. That's one reason why the next major threat in the world will come from 140 million men in China who won't be able to find wives. That is one huge army. A lot of SE Asian neighbours should now be looking very nervously over their shoulders and working as fast as they can to ink assistance and military support deals with whatever superpower will have them.

Be careful what you wish for... in case you get it.

on China

I remember a few years ago seeing a news story about a snow storm near Beijing. I was astonished to read that to clear the snow off the road they used 1 million soldiers! They had a picture of these soldiers with wooden sticks nailed to another in a T shape pushing snow. Recently I my room mate has been a Chinese. We get along well and i have learned a ton from him and his friends even after growing up in Vancouver having many Chinese friends and classmates, living together is simply more intimate and better for cultural discussion especially after a few beers. The one baby policy and the push to have a male child vs a female (their culture's form of social security) has led to as Zalm best puts above. Worse though is these soldiers can't even stay very long in the army and are soon booted out with very limited civil skills. they often end up as bouncers in bars. China is well aware of its growing power in the world and we are starting to see them flex their muscles on the international stage. However unlike the old generation here in Europe, I am not terrified that we now see so many visiting chinese students or that struggling French chateaux vinyards are being bought up by rich chinese and sent back home. China might be a growing power but they are still way off from anything I feel is a true threat. They are smart, they are learning how to build efficiency, sending young people abroad to learn from developed nation for a few years then calling them back home to use their experience. They however have a very long way to go from their current position to anything resembling an efficient economy.

article

"The biggest threat to Western values:
Multiculturalism does not pose a significant danger to Western values - but neoliberalism does."

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/07/2011726131835154941.html

skeletor

Excellent point...about the dangers of wider acceptance of neo-liberal values...
One only needs to look at the US...

Time will tell what is utter shit!

Zalm:
My first input here was to reflect that the state of Norways oil policy did not seem to have any bearing on the incident there;
I thanked the author for the information just as I now thank you for the lesson in Canadian history.

I deliberately write using simple words and sentences, but I do not get baffled because others use the "professor" language.

About your input, I wonder when you get mature enough that you can respond without belittling your opponent?

Now to the issue at hand: Yes indeed there is a lot of bad things you can list here, and I am equally unhappy about it.

What makes the muslim "problem" different is that it smacks at what Hitler was aiming for, and what so many "nice people" kept saying was nothing to be concerned about.

Maybe in a decade or so, we can discuss who saw the future correctly? --- that is if we have freedom to chat by then?

forgot where

Forgot where I read this, but 100 or so years ago Asia had half the worlds population and half the wealth. recently enough it was down to only 10%, prediction was it will go back up to reclaim its position in the world. I think we, the West, will have a lot of trouble dealing with our sun-setting importance. Its not that we will be irrelevant but less relevant than before. I already see it in France, they still have this idea that they are super important in the world as in back when Napoleon was running rickshaw over most of Europe. Since then however they have fell out of importance. Internally they are proud and feel they matter but externally not so much. At least in Canada for the most part i think we all know internationally we don't matter. Even still, we for the most part in the west have very nice lives relative to the rest of the world but I fear as we start to loose power and relative wealth, things start to get tight with a less than booming economy, higher unemployment and a lot of baby boomers to provide for people will simply look for who to blame for not being back for the last 40 years, which were by maybe the most prosperous times in history (in the West).

Zalm

"As men who have no prospects of marriage or family become the most desperate of all, without fulfillment, status or position in society..."

Interesting comment... explains a lot about the sad, sad world we live in :)

Alive your diatribe is racist.

You see the world made up of us and them - us being okay and them being the problem. Skip the generalizations and listen to the individual voices of others - not what is fed to you in the mainstream media.

alive

"About your input, I wonder when you get mature enough that you can respond without belittling your opponent?"

Don't talk about my maturity without standing in front of a mirror. You're a talented guy, you stand up for principles like Jenny Kwan last year when I disagreed, and you talk about farm workers and their issues with balance and knowledge.

So when you go postal on some guy about a kickstand for his bike or this stuff, it makes me wonder exactly what's going on. And the fact that you simplify some things so as to remove the balance from the issue, that only inflames the situation and leads others down the path you tread. Forgive me for getting mud on you, but I will always squash malicious thoughts like bugs. Hopefully I do it with enough precision so as to leave the good parts alone, but sometimes its late, time's short and there sometimes isn't enough good to save.

Every once in a while, we think shit. Occasionally we put it on external speaker, and have to apologize for it. I didn't jump on you, I jumped on your thoughts which were not up to your usual standard. Your best response would be to apologize and go back and read mikev.

If you feel I was unwarrantedly intolerant of one or more of your views, please point it out. Otherwise, as you say, in a decade, we can talk about who was closer.

Meanwhile, perhaps you'll join me - I'm an equal-opportunity squasher. Muslim, Jew, Catholic, Protestant, athiest, agnostic... whoever brings ignorance to bear on problems instead of their best thinking, I'm gonna jump on it with both feet.

Zalm

We are getting into an area that really has no interest to the reading public, guess I started that by questioning your maturity, sorry, I should have learned it takes all kinds.

In case you missed it I did re-qualify my pont about kickstands; and I have no intentions to change a comma about the berserker issue.

What you maybe should have commented on was the essence of my last posting, where I drew a comparison to Hitlers aim to control the world by whatever means, and saying that many "nice people" kept saying for us to not be concerned.

That repeats my warning that we are too lenient in our immigration policies, and naively think that all immigrants come here because we have more space than their mother countries.

Just like suicide bombers, some are selected to infiltrate around the world spreading out and preparing for eventual world-domination.

This may be a diatribe to some or a conspiracy theory, exactly as some thought that it was silly to take Hitlers posturing seriously!

Sorry man, I lived through that experience and I remain suspiscious about politicians as well as religious leaders with big dreams in their heads.

If I deliberately simplify my comments it is because not everyone has a degree in political science, and at times it is needed to call a spade a spade.

And why not? Isn't that what they came for?

"..neither can WASPS demand conformity of immigrants to a constructed image of a society which conforms only to their own prejudices. "

So, you're talking about the 'Canadian establishment' here, right? Those standing of for the same values as those who shaped this society into what we now know as that country where the immigrants want to come of their own free will. Those people?

Well then I must ask you, why do you suppose people are coming? if they like what they see of Canada, why would they want to throw their weight around so as to change it into the place they discarded for it? I certainly do NOT wish for Canada to become 'more like Denmark'. If that was my preference, I would have stayed in Denmark. Consequently, what you are saying is that people come here not to 'join Canada', but simply to get a piece of turf, which they will then make an outpost, a colony of their own culture from 'home'. Sorry I do not agree with that intent, nor do I wish to support it with my tax-dollars. It is, for all intents and purpose, a step in the face of Canada and Canadian values. Yes, there is such a thing. If you think not, there is an area of study which should take you a few years. It did me.

I can't let THIS go unchallenged alive...

Can you provide ONE iota of empirically justified proof of this statement:

?

Frankly, to me, it sounds a lot more like the kind of thing Hitler and his minions wrote and broadcast about Jews than it does about any 'reality' I'm aware of.

And it wasn't just Hitler who played that tune either -

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-rroot540.html

Race-ist???

"Alive your diatribe is racist.

You see the world made up of us and them - us being okay and them being the problem. "

Yeah, I'd say that. At least if by 'the problem' you mean the people who first took into their heads the notion of taking over the world by disposing of the rest of its inhabitants. A man named David Hatcher Childress "would study firsthand the ancient civilizations of Africa, the Middle East and China; along with journeying into dangerous territory occasionally, like Uganda during the overthrow of Idi Amin." according to his web site. He spent six years from the mid-seventies and on traveling, and wrote of his adventures. Throughout the Muslim world, wherever he set foot, every so often someone would accost him and whisper in his ear of the grand plans to 'kill all the Americans' or even 'take over the entire Western world', but then add that it was some years off because 'we aren't ready yet'. Are 'we' aware of this pervasive indoctrination? I have never heard it admitted or referred to. Why not? I cannot imagine this is something Mr. Childress would have invented, as it is not the spirit of a troublemaker that comes through his books. On the contrary, he often reflects on man's meanness to man, in a sorrowful manner.

Because you point out the less cooperative nature of another people, you are not racist. You are stating an opinion on conduct. Racism means you write off a whole people solely due to their race, no matter their behavior. Besides, Muslim is not a race. Some of Persian origin and some of the people from the 'stans' belong to the same race as the 'wasps'. But it is a declared world-wide 'brotherhood', just like that of the Roman Catholic Church, which has a lot to answer for, or the Society of Friends, which to my knowledge only ran amok once, in Salem and environs. As Pasternak had it: 'the revolution has no use for sympathetic doctors', i.e. you are part of the solution, or you are part of the problem. You cannot escape responsibility by choosing to remain oblivious to what your compadres are plotting.

Racist yet?

I have been called names before, but thanks anyway!

And, now I am supposed to provide emperical evidence of a conspiracy?

Maybe in line with "who engineered the sabotage of that tower in NY?"

Here, I am stating an opinion, and I have qualified why I think so.

You are entitled to think differently, and eventually we shall see who runs Canada, maybe the Chinese will have bought us out before the Muslims can multiply enough to vote os out?

Just like Dorothy, I choose Canada for its values, and have no desire to change anything; but I feel qualified to point out that not every group of immigrants come here just for a quiet peacefull lifestyle.

But alive - just because YOU are satisfied with your opinion…

It doesn't follow that said opinion has ANY justification in fact.

If you had any such hard evidence I believe you'd provide it.

You haven't done so and I'd assert that YOUR values are not the ones which hold much currency in the Canada I value.

Furthermore, the only actual 'case' you've proffered in support of your argument cannot be distinguished - in any form of analysis - as the work of immigrants.

Either try again, or acknowledge that, at bottom, your beliefs are little more than the same kind of prejudices against the 'other' that seem to have motivated Anders Behring Breivik.

dorothy

Childress?

You MUST be joking.

Joking?

"Childress?

You MUST be joking."

Now why would you say that? I know about the man's high-flying theories about lost grand cultures or space aliens and so on, but these are interpretations and clearly expressed as such. That is no reason to believe that he is 'lying' about things that are simple factual information. Why would he say that he saw a red flower by the roadside, if in fact he saw two yellow ones, and why would he say that people in some countries told him gleefully that they would kill all the Americans, if they didn't? To discard EVERYTHING a man says, because you don't agree with him on musings about things we cannot know, but must guess at, seems more than a bit snobbish to me, and there are many important things I would never have learned and known, if I had been equally finicky. Everywhere I have been able to double-check simple descriptive things he says in his books, other sources are in agreement.

So no, I'm not joking. Nor am I patient with cookie-cutter answers to anything.

In evidence...

"If you had any such hard evidence I believe you'd provide it."

From what I have seen reported, maybe 'selected to infiltrate', etc., etc. is a bit more extreme than facts can bear out, but that is only because there is no need to select. As I said before, a pervasive indoctrination has done its job to an extent that most faithfuls can be counted on to do what is expected of them when and if the occasion is brought about. Was it not the big shot among the Iranian Ayatollahs, who said recently that people who believe in 'moderate Islam' as any other than a deceptive fiction are idiots? He should certainly be qualified to speak to the issue.

When the rage over a few lines on paper was in full flow, I do not believe any Big Brother was needed to command the flag-burnings and executions in effigy, but that the cadres in the Muslim world behaved like the best little(or not so little) Borg collective ever. They certainly appeared to be trying to convince us all that 'resistance would be futile'!

G West, why don't you instruct us in the Canadian values you don't think we understand? You are saying we fall short of them, but not what they are. How are we to ever progress in insight, if you do not enlighten us? I hope you do not think we both belong to immigrant categories too dumb to bother with. That wouldn't be very integrative of you...

Another threat to Western values....

And so, the need for such a foundation.
Thank you, Ms Ali.

http://theahafoundation.org/

My experience

Hey Dorothy, believe me G West deligths in asking questions that have no answers, somehow that makes him feel above the rest of us.

He wants "hard answers", very well knowing that conspirators do not leave tell-tale evicence lying around.

I have had a few bouts with that contributor, and am sure that nobody has ever conviced him of anything, so, best advice is to not take his comments to seriously --- he's is pulling your leg!

zalm

About sums up the entire post-Columbian history of the "new world". The society we ended up with is entirely incidental to its origins - and it's one of the primary obstacles we face that thwart any hope of conversion to sustainability.

I think...dorothy

I think a fundamental Canadian value is that of being innocent until proven guilty.

I think that a fundamental Canadian value is that we don’t judge people on anything except their character and their own performance...

You're the ones making what I suggest are outlandish and highly prejudicial claims - and if using Childress as a 'source' of any kind is part of your armamentarium I'd say you've got a pretty steep evidential curve to surmount.

As for indoctrination - I see plenty of that around me every day and very little of it from Muslims..

As a matter of fact, in my community, the Muslims are busy collecting funds from anyone who's willing to contribute to assist with the famine that's decimating the Somalis in the Horn of Africa.

I think that's an interesting insight.

And, I'm actually much more interested in the activities and pronouncements of our own 'Ayatollah' Stephen Harper in Ottawa.

This country, in my view, is a lot more endangered by the kind of extremism he and his followers of fundamentalists practice than anything I see coming from so-called radical Islam.

Furthermore, if I had to chose between the new mayor of Calgary and the new mayor of Toronto to find which of the two most reflects what I cherish as 'Canadian' values it would be Naheed Nenshi that gets the nod - by a long shot. And. One other thing.

If I had to pick any ‘class of immigrant’ that I thought might threaten the Canadian ‘values’ I hold to be important it would be that group of individuals who ‘buy’ their way into this country because they have a big bag of money behind them…that’s something that started even before Stephen Harper took over and it has nothing to do with anything like ‘character’ or potential or real benefit to the country.

It has everything to do with selfishness and greed and, in the end, that threatens this country and its future more than any ‘Islamist’ threat.

And, I want to make it clear

I'm not saying anyone or any class of individuals falls short of 'making the grade' relative to fundamental Canadian values.

That, as I see it, is what you've been saying.

Cheers.

alive

"This may be a diatribe to some or a conspiracy theory, exactly as some thought that it was silly to take Hitlers posturing seriously!"

You're right - it's a conspiracy theory. And Hitler was no immigrant. Nor did anyone fail to take him seriously - Chamberlain agonized over his decisions for months even after they'd been taken, only you never heard that growing up in the 1960s because all the histories of the war were written by.... Winston Churchill. Surprised? I wouldn't be.

No, Hitler was a demogogue, not an immigrant or a politician.

dem·a·gogue/ˈdeməˌgäg/Noun
1. A political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument."

So was Mussolini, Pavelic, Selassie, George W. Bush, and Stephen Harper. The media's all loaded up with demagogues - the work seems to attract them like flies to shit.

So're you. Don't wear it like a badge. Your ignorance of your own country is stultifying, not enlightening, no matter how little you think of people with degrees.

dorothy

Your absolutism is extremely tiresome.

"Yeah, I'd say that. At least if by 'the problem' you mean the people who first took into their heads the notion of taking over the world by disposing of the rest of its inhabitants."

You mean like the Christian Crusaders? Over and over and over again nine times over seven hundred years and countless lesser incursions.... I think that's the kind of reference you should be using when you defend racism.

More properly what you're talking about is supremacism, and nobody on earth is immune to it. But we should be looking out for it. Childress' Wikipedia entry is unflattering enough for most people to ignore what's said by him except as an interesting bit of fiction, but obviously you're more discriminating and can determine the veracity of a single grubby inhabitant of a tiny village likely called Nowhere, Middle East, can possibly have supreme knowledge of a vast conspiracy spanning a billion individuals over a quarter of the globe.

Don't you think that would have been front page news? Somewhere?

"Because you point out the less cooperative nature of another people, you are not racist."

What people? What whole people, comprising an entire body of millions of individuals without exception has a "less cooperative nature"? Black slaves? Mestizos? Cargo-cult Polynesians? The 1930s Chinese of Manchuria under Japanese overlordship? That same phrase has been used in each case and many more beside.

further

"To discard EVERYTHING a man says,..."

Your reductio ad absurdum argument is not warranted as nobody did that. If your or Childress or anyone whispered in my ear that a man told him we Christians could all grow wings and fly to heaven, I would not have to see someone try and fail before I dismissed those words as pure fiction.

What do the rest of you think? Should I cheapen my relationship with dozens of Muslims of my personal acquaintance and ask them whether they are participants in a giant hidden conspiracy to breed billions of little thugs and take over the Western world (den of iniquity that it is... mmmmppphhh.... snicker...) by population - ie 'democracy' - or by force?

Or should I refuse to dignify Dorothy's diatribe with more rational thought, which, it would appear, has yet to leave an impression?

Dorothy, I'll leave you with one thought. You and alive on this thread have exemplified Western exceptionalism, itself a cultural construct that found its roots in Christian patristic hegemonism. It has been used to justify repression of women, the poor, the handicapped, those of different upbringing or thought, and even economic governance, and has been substantially responsible for most wars on the European subcontinent as well as those wars exported by Europeans to other continents such as North and South America, Africa and Asia. Every one of your declarative statements has its root there, and I'm not enjoying this conversation, so I'll leave you to it till I see something better worth responding to. You’ve done much better elsewhere.

So help me!

Amazing how difficult it is to state a thought without creating a flood of unrelated rhetoric?

Sorry Zalm, I never read a word from that windbag Churchill, and if people took Hitler seriously, why then were nobody prepared?

Your guessing is wrong, I grew up in the forties, and I saw all the signs and saw how "important people" referred to Hitler as a mascarade clown who had trucks camuflaged as tanks to impress his own people etc. etc.

I could see it then, and I can see it now!

Hitler was not an immigrant, thanks for the info! neither are the ones who orchestrate the world take-over these days!

I am a little tired of all the history lessons provided in this column, they prove nothing!

The responses I read look and smell like red herrings were dragged through, to bewilder and confuse the issue.

And Yes, we are talking about a conspiracy, and the best conspirators are the ones who fit in so well, that they are your friends.

If the thought has no merit in the first place

Some kind of rhetorical onslaught appears to be the only possible reaction.

Left unchallenged, the corrosive effects of sloppy thinking and prejudice are not pretty.

It's unlikely you're going to change your views - but others who read these exchanges may, before it is too late, recognize such views for what they really are.

alive

Just happened to watch JFK (the 20th anniversary of the movie) last night.......

And then there was that conspiracy among Japanese Canadians a few decades ago, who were plotting to open the doors for Emperor Hirohito and his yellow hordes......

who me?

G West: You talking to me boy?
As I said previously nobody has ever made you change your point of view, and it certainly is not my aim to try.

alive

It is absolutely clear that I was referring to you and your 'ideas'.

Cheers.

alive

I won't disagree that there are people all around us that hope that by wishing happy thoughts, that evil will go away. Maybe we should leave it at that. Any deeper and we'll just disagree again.

Best regards,

And then there was...

Zalm has ostensibly withdrawn from the debate, but I wish to provide some references for those interested. Regarding what exactly it may be that Denmark has learned the hard way, the following will cast some light:

http://www.sullivan-county.com/wcva/denmark.htm

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2011/April/Irans-Radical-Islamic-Reach-Grips-Denmark/

http://europenews.dk/en/node/43060

Regarding the crusades, which are invariably trotted out in order to try to guilt-trip Westerners, neatly forgetting that Islamic expansion by force was already several hundred years underway by then, and in fact never stopped, other than when being met by force in turn, till, well, never. Here are a couple of files outlining the history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades#Reconquista_in_the_Iberian_Peninsula

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests

I see no real argument on the part of Zalm, only disparagement of both my views and my references. David Hatcher Childress himself distinguishes clearly between things he has observed, and things he concludes from source material. I do not see a reason to uncritically discard everything he says, as little as to uncritically accept everything. I lay claim to being less simplistic than that, or less lazy, or less distrusting of my own discernment.

Fortunately, however, we do not need him as our only source. There is enough reports from journalists in European countries, notably from Denmark, who have heard and understood speeches held in mosques to Muslim congregations, which clearly denigrated the surrounding community, its laws and social order, and encouraged the congregation to work towards taking over the power to change things.

Zalm is also using the phrase ‘Western exceptionalism’ without explaining it. Maybe 'everyone' knows what it means, but should someone have queries, they may check here:

http://amberandchaos.com/?p=601

http://psychogenesis.thinkertothinker.com/?p=106

Jumping through hoops

Microsoft word counted my entry as 2,945 characters with spaces, but I was still told it was too long, so here goes 'part two'(also tripped by spam filter - is that because of hyperlinks?):

I wish to make it clear that at no point am I talking about ‘all Muslims’ in these contexts. I am talking about organizations seemingly with clandestine agendas, about those who express contempt for their new surroundings, and those who undertake hostile action against the citizens in countries that have given them shelter. I am well aware there are many who only wish to do well and fit in in their new country and are not aware of any of these things. I am suggesting that they might wish to take an interest in ‘cleaning house’ as many of other faiths have done and are still doing. I am also reminding that the consideration they meet with in the West is in no way reciprocated towards Westerners visiting Muslim countries.

As regards the snide remark over Japanese Canadians possibly plotting to help an invasion, well, that will never be proven one way or another, since preemptive action was taken to prevent it. I am also not saying there were any plotting, just that one cannot take for granted it wasn’t the case.

Dorothy

Finally, and my last word on the subject, I don't think you have presented any actual evidence of any presumptive danger to Canadian society and culture from any alleged Muslim plot.

You have presented several web posts written by what appear to be 'Christian' fundamentalists among whom a quick scan produced this obvious howler: "...almost all terrorists are Muslims."

As for your last sentence - with respect to zalm's perfect valid comparison from WW2 - you can't be serious.

Even if there were the smallest threat of actual Japanese subversion from a handful of spies or plotters, the damage to Canadian society in general (in moral terms alone) of the internment was (and has been demonstrated in every possible way) far greater than any HYPOTHETICAL harm which has ever been postulated by the most paranoid of 'believer'.

Again I say, surely you're joking. To suggest that Canadians should emulate the bad behaviour of any other culture or country or to use such behaviour as a justification for prejudice and discrimination here is risible.

That too is an important Canadian value - either we behave as though our motivations are somewhat less base than our most depraved 'opponents' or we sink to their level.