Jim Sinclair, BC Federation of Labour & HST Hypocrisy

Ah the hypocrisy: Jim Sinclair and the BC Federation of Labour are out loudly trumpeting how purportedly evil is the HST, and yet when it came to HST in Ontario, the Canadian Auto Workers -- Canada's largest private sector union -- advised its membership NOT to engage in anti-HST fear mongering, to avoid stirring the pot of "tax rage", and to support HST.

In a November 2009 memo (which can be found at http://bit.ly/jLQxYV), CAW Chief Economist Jim Stanford explained the virtues of the HST. He then said, "Political opposition to the HST does not reflect a well considered call for a fairer tax system. It's more about electoral gamesmanship by opposition parties eager to damage the current government. When the anti-HST coalition tries to tap into knee-jerk anti-tax sentiments to win more votes, it also encourages a regressive, potentially dangerous attitude to government and the public services those taxes support." (See page 2 of Stanford's memo.)

CAW President Ken Lewenza echoed Stanford's comments and recommendations. See http://bit.ly/mBejjI under "Support for Public Sector Workers . . ." where it notes: Lewenza also encouraged delegates not to fall into the trap of "tax rage," fostered by the unlikely coalition of the Ontario NDP and the Ontario Progressive Conservative Party, surrounding the Harmonized Sales Tax (HST). "We want a strong civil society and that must be supported by taxes," said Lewenza.

The HST is clearly about not only creating jobs in BC, but preserving the ones we have by ensuring we remain a competitive place to do business. That is self-evident from the CAW's support for HST in Ontario.

It's time Mr. Sinclair took Mr. Lewenza's and Mr. Stanford's well reasoned advice and stop playing politics with the HST and put the interests of his members and the province ahead of his own political aspirations and those of the provincial NDP.

To read more, see: http://bit.ly/jyGiL5

Dig up spme more David Robertson

The statements by the CAW in Ontario were made for one purpose and one purpose only. And that was to save hundreds of thousands of jobs that would have been lost under the depression we are in. The Auto industry was hit harder than any other. I believe the statements made by Stanford and Lewenza were given under pressure and panic. And I further believe that they both should have looked at the situation as Jim Sinclair has. And that is to prevent a major tax shift under a government that does not support the people who elect them.

Vote Yes to get rid of the HST.

David Robertson writes:

David Robertson writes: "It's time Mr. Sinclair took Mr. Lewenza's and Mr. Stanford's well reasoned advice and stop playing politics with the HST and put the interests of his members and the province ahead of his own political aspirations and those of the provincial NDP". Maybe you should talk to the people behind the millions of dollars being spent to basically fool taxpayers into buying in this regressive tax. I'm talking about thew Liberals & Smart Tax Alliance. How is that group any different then the BC Federation of Labour. Both are standing up for what they believe, only the Liberals have millions of our dollars to throw around. One thing is for sure and that is the Liberals have mismanaged Provincial budgets to the point that it needs a broader tax base to refill the coffers. And for this we should reward them. Not in my lifetime. David Robertson & company can try all day to shift the blame game....but in the end, I will continue based on evidence to vote "YES" to extinguish the HST. Which I already have.

Guy in Victoria

hypocrisy

"Ah the hypocrisy: Jim Sinclair and the BC Federation of Labour are out loudly trumpeting how purportedly evil is the HST, and yet when it came to HST in Ontario, the Canadian Auto Workers -- Canada's largest private sector union -- advised its membership NOT to engage in anti-HST fear mongering, to avoid stirring the pot of "tax rage", and to support HST."

I'm sorry, how is Sinclair and the BC Federation of Labour being hypocritical? They're the BC FOL, not the Ontario FOL .

Using your argument, couldn't I say the CAW are hypocrites because they don't agree with the BC Federation of Labour?

Is Carol Taylor a hypocrite because because she didn't agree with the those on the right advocated for the HST? Are restaurant owners and independent home renovators hypocrites if they don't agree with the Smart Tax Alliance on the merits of the HST?

Are all business groups also required to engage in group think or just labour groups?

I will be voting to save the

I will be voting to save the HST and to support
"Made in BC"products" .

@David Robertson

Again, David Robertson posts the self same 'argument' - which actually isn't his - instead of arguing the case in the British Columbia context.

Stanford, in his first paragraph, clearly states that he is giving his 'opinion' as the economist and policy director of the CAW...

I wish David Robertson had been as honest and upfront by telling Tyee readers who he works for.

In fact, however, the remarks I posted after Mr. Robertson made essentially the same comment on an earlier Tyee story a couple of days ago are just as valid now as they were then.

I'll simply cut and paste them here one more time - in the hopes that Mr. Robertson will actually decide to make his case for the HST and not simply parrot what someone else has written.

Furthermore, neither Robertson nor Stanford actually address the real problem with the HST – the simple and unavoidable fact that it has shown NO RESULTS as a job producer and that it has shifted almost $2 billion of tax onto the shoulders of poor people, working people and middle class people and off the shoulders of corporations and businesses.

Under the PST/GST corporations and businesses actually paid about 40% of the sales tax revenues to government for social services – NOW they pay nothing.

Economists may like the simplicity of this system – it is absolute stupidity for taxpaying consumers to support it.

Why does Mr. Robertson support it?

facts and figures, fast and loose

The interesting ever reducing job creation estimates is yet another example of this government creating reality from wild fantasy. Rather than assessing policy this government has been more interested in selling its policy. Much like the economic impact studies during the 2010 Olympic games, the government's estimates quickly declined from a maximum of $20 billion to less than $2 billion.

Another column published today in the North Shore News indicated that the government will take in an additional $8 billion in taxes through the HST while creating an estimated and ever declining number of jobs of 24,000. Simple math suggests that in desperation the government is prepared to use $333,333 of our money to create a single job!

I have a suggestion: I will retire right now and save the government money and open up a work space for someone younger if the Christy government provides me with $250,000.

North Shore News

http://www.nsnews.com/news/heck+trust/5056621/story.html

Good one Jim Sinclair!..

The people that buy into this myth about jobs can't seem to look at the facts. You just gotta have faith, they say. Faith in the BC Lieberals?. Right!

It was all about shifting the tax burden. Now it is about making us believe that our jobs depend on it. Tomorrow it will be about how the Lieberals are so good and managing the provinces finances.

Robertson, playing the

Robertson, playing the business sector's role of a Patrick Kinsella, is busy creating as much noise as possible without addressing the main argument that the vast majority of BC citizens are becoming more aware of: the HST in BC is nothing more than a tax shift from one sector of the province's population to another.

Analysis has shown that the gap between what the majority of us pay in taxes, percentage wise, compared to business and the wealthy is widening while wages are stagnant. To steal more money from the pockets of the lower and middle class only negatively impacts small businesses. Less money in my pocket means less consumption.

Mr. Robertson is paid by the Smart Tax Alliance to create confusion and to make sure those most impacted by the HST will vote to support those who will benefit the most from HST.

I will be marking my ballot YES.

Read the North Shore News column for another viewpoint.

Can't Wait to Vote Yes to Scrap the HST

I can't wait to vote Yes to scrap the HST

And primarily because as a citizen in a democracy (sort of), we get to correct those who lie to us. That is our right. Full stop. Citizens can do as we wish. Sort of like government and corporate monopolies. Except for one primary difference. We put them in a position of trust. When they fail, we can remove them.

The majority of citizens are primary. Government and corporations, secondary.

Great coverage.

No surprise here...

Anyone with some intelligence will see that the HST is a tax shift. People in this province pay an x amount of money in taxes. Then this money is used for services etc. When businesses pay less than 15% of their share in this x amount, well, someone has to pick up the difference. And this is the tax payer. Since high income earners also pay less in taxes on what they earn, the burden is on the middle and low income people. I don't even have to be an economist to see this.

Businesses want to convince us that the HST is good. Of course. Why wouldn't they - it is less tax for them.

Higher taxes have never stimulated any economy. Greed and corruption is blinding businesses and politicians and this will cause further deterioration in society.

Our services are diminishing because the money isn't going where it should.

Almost 15 years of HST in other provinces didn't seem to make a darn difference in people's standard of living that they are supporting through paying their taxes. I can only shake my head on such a nonsense - it is not worth any words anymore.

I put my nail into the HST coffin and mailed my ballot. It is a sounding YES for me!

If any business wants to convince me otherwise they are welcome to do that. Show me the money! Pay me at least a LIVING wage and provide affordable services. Anything less than that is a waste of my time. There is always a way around and people will find ways to pay less - underground economy here we come.

David Robertson

Interesting arguments by Sinclair.

I scrolled down to the comments to see how pro-HSTers would rebutt, and what do they give us?!?!...nothing.

David Robertson does not address any of Sinclair's points about the job creation fables of the HST and corporate tax cuts. Instead he lowers to personal attacks on Sinclair and brings in other 'experts' to cloud matters.

I have been very interested in this debate and followed it closely. Arguments from the Pro-HST side boil down to faith based economics (the same ones that got us into the global economic crisis) while the anti tax (except for a few 'I don't want to pay' ones) are the most solid.

Since the tax represents a change of the status quo, the oness is on the Pro SHT side to back up their claims that the HST works for the public good.

It is becoming obvious that their ( PRo-HSTers) main line of reasoning is that if the wealthy and corporations are doing fine, we will all benefit. Essentially this is faith based 'trickle down economics' and in the real world this has created greater inequality, stagnant wages and falling stands of living for all but the few at the top.

I am mailing my ballot, with

I am mailing my ballot, with the YES box checked today. A sucker might be born every minute but I am not one of them.

Working for the man

Decent pay is a long way off with the carbon tax and the HST and the high cost of property taxes getting at it first. Where does a province who puts the environment first going to make its money because it can't compete with the rest of the country with the carbon tax? Digging dirty old carbon and radiation fuming coal, tonnes and tonnes of it with BC's phony carbon tax which is just another tax break for big corporate polluters. That is right jobs are at a loss and it is expected to continue in other sectors while BC has big plans on digging up coal with full blown environmental damage ahead to create employment. So if you are need of a job that is where they are at in the coal mines working yourself half to death.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/09/climate-bill-already-killing-coal-plants.php

The HST rebate is in the mail but not for the low income

All which the poorest in the province pay as families on a disablity or ill or out of work do not receive a rebate if receive government assistance because they are forced to use it to try to eat. Those receiving assistance only receive money for 28 days of the month. Government makes it 35 days the month the rebate cheque comes out paying for 28 days only and families and their babies and the elelderly and disabled try to survive the extra week on their rebate cheque with the HST and carbon tax attached to their purchases.

the province can stuff the

the province can stuff the creation 113,000 , 50,000, 24,400(?) likely minimum/low wage jobs.

do we need more fast food joints, coffee shops and cheap china clothing? really? let's create and build here, keep the money here and take care of the citizens here. this province really could be the envy of the world.

i'm still waiting on my ballot. i can't wait to check the YES box with glee.

Misrepresentation of CAW position on HST

David Robertson of the Smart Tax Alliance continues to deliberately misrepresent the CAW's position on the HST despite being corrected several times.

The CAW has not endorsed the HST in either BC or Ontario, contrary to his claims here.

The Smart Tax Alliance and Tony Wilson both claimed yesterday that I and/or the CAW had endorsed the HST. The claims have been withdrawn from the Smart Tax Alliance website and from Mr. Wilson's on-line commentary, yet Mr. Robertson persists with the false claims.

The remarks which Robertson quotes were all in regards to the political debate over the HST in Ontario, where both the proposed tax itself, the fiscal context, and the economic situation are very different from B.C., and hence require a separate analysis. But even in Ontario the CAW did not endorse the HST.

Dsepite repeated corrections Mr. Robertson and his organization continue to spread these false claims. Mr. Robertson first attempted to invoke myself and the CAW as being supportive of the HST on the radio two weeks ago, and I called him June 23 to inform him that neither I nor the CAW have endorsed the HST in either Ontario or BC. He is well aware of our position.

I have never experienced a more dishonest and deliberate manipulation of my written words in a public policy debate in my 20 years in public life as an economist.

Jim Stanford, Ph.D.
Economist

I and 4 of my neighbours are

I and 4 of my neighbours are still waiting for our ballot...

This whole mail in ballot thing is very suspicious to me. I won't be surprised if the No side wins...We should of had this vote last year like a regular election...

I voted YES

I'm not enjoying paying additional tax on construction materials, on phone and cable bills, on restaurant meals when I can afford them. I'm not enjoying the smaller Sales Tax rebates on the HST than I got with the GST. I'm not enjoying the employment and service cuts due to reduced revenue after the government gave away the $12B to their corporate masters.

The Li(e)berals gave away $2B+ to the corporations on achieving government status, causing even the Fraser Institute to say whoah - too much too quick. Now they're about to lose that status, so they're giving away another $2B as a parting gift.

Mr. Sinclair does make some statements without backing them up, and the article suffers a bit from them, but I know him, and I know that he does have the supporting data at hand, which makes up for some of that.

The HST, with the tactics surrounding its implementation and the rule changes regarding the referendum are just more signs of the "democracy deficit" created by governments that apparently feel their biggest problem comes from voters with information and intelligence. Oligarchs at best, dictators in their dreams.

This baby is the bathwater. Throw it out.

Courage & Integrity - Response to Jim Stanford

Jim,

First, I need to clarify: I am not a member of the Smart Tax Alliance, and I am not being paid by them.

Second, in 2006 when I wrote to you to ask whether the CAW would support the elimination of PST and its replacement with the HST in Ontario, you responded that it would be difficult for the CAW to take a leadership role in such an effort. However, you then volunteered your personal view that "I hope this [the HST] isn't one of those issues . . . that should be no-brainers, but which get held up solely because of the politics."

Then this past weekend, I searched "Jim Stanford HST" at google.com and find that the ninth item listed in the search result is your November 27, 2009 CAW memo (which can be found at http://bit.ly/jLQxYV)providing your analysis of the HST. In it, you state, inter alia:

* The system of collecting the HST is more efficient and less harmful than the PST. It spreads the sales tax burden more fairly across all sectors (unlike the current PST, which imposes a much higher tax burden on manufactured goods).

* The HST will not have any noticeable impact on the fairness of our sales tax system. Shifting from one sales tax to another (collecting the same amount of revenue) will not make our current tax system any more or less fair.

You also wrote:

* Political opposition to the HST does not reflect a well considered call for a fairer tax system. It's more about electoral gamesmanship by opposition parties eager to damage the current government. When the anti-HST coalition tries to tap into knee-jerk anti-tax sentiments to win more votes, it also encourages a regressive, potentially dangerous attitude to government and the public services those taxes support.

Now, you have said repeatedly that this analysis only applies to Ontario. Yet both you and I know that the PST systems in BC and Ontario were virtually identical.

The question British Columbians are being asked in this referrendum is whether you are in favour of extinguishing the HST and reinstating the PST in conjunction with the GST.

So my question to you is, as an economist (and not on behalf of the CAW), do you believe that it would be best for the province of British Columbia to extinguish the HST and reinstate the PST in conjunction with the GST?

The question is very important because it will determine the type of sales tax system that British Columbia will have for the next forty year. After this referendum is decided, no politician will dare touch this issue for at least a generation.

If you do believe restoring PST in conjuction with the GST is better for BC than keeping the HST, please explain not only why, but also please explain why BC is different than Ontario.

David

PS -- The subject line of this post, it is in reference to your acceptance speech at the 2011 Annual PPF Awards.

I voted Yes

I am hand delivering my ballot to the BC Government Offices to make sure it is in the hands of the BC Lieberals. The one thing that concerns me most is the fact that we don't know who will be counting them. Has anyone heard of someone from the "anti HST" side being asked to be present when these votes are counted? Or is the Lieberal Party asking us to "Trust Us" once more. I certainly do not trust that we will get a fair count if there is no one there that is honest and above board.

David Roberston said:

"The HST is clearly about not only creating jobs in BC, but preserving the ones we have by ensuring we remain a competitive place to do business."

Who's paying you to write this mendacious fiction; fiction for which there is absolutely no evidence or support data? You are more than just a shill, you are a liar.

The BC provincial government and the BC business sector is not trying to ensure that BC remain a competitive place to do business, it is trying its hardest to ensure that BC remain a place to make high profits, pay the lowest possible wages and beneifts, and roll in the dough until the cows come home.

Voted YES

Voted YES and mailed it off. Choke on it Clark.

@David Robertson

I'm pleased that Jim Stanford has also taken the time to reply to your repeated reference, in a totally out of context debate, to a letter written by Mr. Stanford IN ONTARIO to address a specific question that has little or no relevance to the debate in this province.

Again, your response above me here is disingenuous with respect to the second point (again cribbed from Jim Stanford) because it fails to acknowledge that there is a significant increase in the tax base under the HST.

Not only in the service and labour sector, but also across a significant number of products which were PST exempt under the old system.

Your point is entirely invalid - whether you argue it yourself, or borrow it from Jim Stanford's letter to his own union.

Furthermore, the 'efficiency' of the HST is largely illusory in the modern office and business atmosphere and, in every case, applies only to the collection of the tax itself.

The HST is a regressive shift in taxation which impinges more significantly upon consumption costs for the lower earning 75% of the population - again, which you totally ignore and which, in terms of the word YOU used - cannot be said to be fairer under any definition of that word.

I know who pays Jim Stanford's salary.

Who pays yours Mr. Robertson?

How about a little courage and integrity yourself?

"Ah the hypocrisy". @ David Robertson

In one of you posts could you answer a few questions for us. First: What is the total amount of money the Smart Tax Alliance is spending of the Pro HST campaign? Second: How many (what %) of your members are contributors to the BC Liberal party? Third: Why do you not schedule a panel to travel the province to discuss all aspects of the HST and invite a spokesperson from labor, business, government and opposition in search of a Smart Tax Alliance? Fourth: Do you view a Smart Tax Policy only as one that benefits business and corporations? Fifth: Do you feel it is fair to spend millions of dollars to promote you view when the other side gets $500,000 in total? Sixth: Does a truly smart tax policy require $15 million dollars of persuasion?

That s just a start. I'm sure there are others who have questions. Like can you dispute with facts Jim Sinclair's claim that the cost of these new jobs will be about $833,000 for each one with most of the contributions coming from us masses? I include this one to see if you can address on specific issue with facts.

I await your reply.

Lest We Forget

The tax shift is the primary reason why I (today) voted "yes" to repeal the HST. But it certainly wasn't the only reason.

It should be clear to a village idiot that Campbell and Hansen were caught like deer in the headlights when they found out that their $500 million ("read my lips") campaign-style deficit had ballooned astronomically days after the election.

(Probably something to do with that pesky, but non-existent global recession.)

The feds quickly came along with a $1.6 billion bribe and, presto, the BC Liberals were suddenly in favour of tax harmonization ... after years of opposing it (as all previous governments in BC had done).

And please, let's remember this critical point: The reason that we will have to wait years for an HST reduction to 10% is because BC also gave away the right to unilaterally control provincial taxation when they signed the HST agreement with Ottawa.

Go back in the record folks, and see how many premiers and finance ministers in BC thought THAT was a good idea. Hint: Campbell and Hansen were the only ones.

There are no good reasons to maintain the HST, unless you believe in the power of fairy dust and the humanitarian generosity of major corporations.

Jim Sinclair

Yeah, but the Manitoba NDP government has also slashed their corporate income tax rate even more... to 12%!

Yeah, but the Manitoba NDP government has also abolished the corporate capital tax.

The Manitoba NDP government is successful because it is moderate/pragmatic centre-left, more like an orange Liberal Party.

So Jim, what are ya advocating... that the BC NDP should go loony left or that everyone should vote Marxist-Leninist?!

BTW, Teamsters Local 115 tacitly supports the HST and even has the anti-Vander Zalm HST video on their website.

http://www.teamsters155.org/web2009/index.php

I also suspect that IATSE locals 669 and 891, as well as BCUP, ACTRA, and DGC also tacitly support the HST for the same reasons. And they are all affiliated with the BC Fed!!

Finally Got My Ballot

I voted YES and mailed it off. Goodbye HST, Goodbye BC Liberals.

yes, Cool Hand...

...BC's economy and resources are the same as Manitoba's? Really?

Naw Lukie

Read the article again - Sinclair's saying that business and corporations in BC are doing just fine with their current tax rates.

And he's right - they have as much need of further tax breaks from the institution of the HST as a boar needs tits.

Sinclair's simply pointing out the facts.

Maybe YOU forgot that the Manitoba government (that's the NDP government) rejected the HST - unlike the lunkheads here under Gordon Campbell and Miss Christy.

Furthermore...

...I know people in business who normally vote Liberal and who are not in support of the HST. I also know union members who vote liberal and will support the HST. What does that prove? Well, hatred for the HST crosses party lines and the propaganda machine is pouring money into the effort. We'll see if it works. Those little blue "yes" signs are very effective.

YES! Damn that feels good to

YES! Damn that feels good to actually have a say again...

Hope they mail me something similar to extinguish the soon-to-be F35 fiasco. Nah, probably not. The military-industrial-complex won't be denied on that one.

just wondering...

I am a bit suspicious of the gov't...obviously for many, many reasons.

Will we truly go back to how it was - not paying GST on a lot of things?

Or will they simply apply the GST to everything the HST is now covering?

Would they dare?

Alsil asks good question:

Who is counting the votes?

the real cost

Economics aside, there is a far more important reason to vote "Yes" to get rid of the HST. Economics is fools game based on a false economy built on "cheap oil" (an oxymoron if there ever was one!). What is it? A little thing called "Democracy". You know, where political parties of all stripes engage the citizenry in discussion and debate the pros and cons. And in the end, support the wishes of the people. Regardless of what the "Kings" of commerce or other assorted robber baron scumbags want. People all over the world have died for Democracy. Others pray for it everyday. Time to take it back, folks!

I voted YES YES YES.

To KILL KILL KILL the HST...

Toobad you can see how one voted ...You can see the ballot marked either yes or no...It appears Elections BC made the "Secrecy envelope"...TRANSPARENT!..

A little light and you can see how one voted without opening the last security envelope!

jimbostanford

You're now featured in tomorrow's Vancouver Sun in BC political commentator Vaughn Palmer's highly read column:

----------------------

B.C’s Anti-HST Crusaders Won’t Heed Ontario’s ‘Tax Rage’ Alert

Unions There Warned Revolt Would undermine fight to save services

By Vaughn Palmer, Vancouver Sun July 6, 2011

Amid all the complaints about harmonization of the sales tax in Ontario two years ago, the powerful autoworkers union cautioned labour and progressive forces against joining what amounted to a tax revolt.

“We want a strong civil society and that must be supported by taxes,” CAW president Ken Lewenza told 700 delegates to the union council in December 2009, where he warned against falling into the trap of “tax rage.”

Addressing provincial New Democratic Party leader Andrea Horwath on a subsequent occasion, Lewenza was equally direct.

“Andrea, the harmonized sales tax, as unpopular as it may be, cannot be an issue from the progressive side,” the Toronto Star quoted him as saying. “The NDP is never going to get elected on a revolt on taxes.”

Lewenza and the other leaders of the union were armed with a more extensive analysis of the risks from Jim Stanford, the CAW director of economic, social and sector policy and a leading economists on the left.

“The anti-HST campaign, by fanning the flames of ‘tax rage’ among Ontarians, will likely undermine the coming fight to preserve public programs and services,” he wrote in an 11-page submission dated Nov. 27, 2009, and addressed to a wide range of union worthies.

“Most share my concern that the anti-HST campaign, by tapping into a conservative anti-tax sentiment, risks doing significant damage to our social programs and the tax base for those programs.”

His analysis incorporated strong arguments in favour of value-added taxes like the HST, many of them similar to ones made by other economists.

The HST would be more efficient, it would spread the tax burden more fairly across all economic sectors and eliminate the hidden taxation associated with the old PST.

Based on the experiences from provinces that harmonized earlier, there would be “no measurable negative impact on consumers or the fairness of the tax system resulting from replacement of the previous PST with the new HST.”
......

“When the anti-HST coalition tries to tap into knee-jerk anti-tax sentiments to win more votes, it also encourages a regressive, potentially dangerous attitude to government and the public services those taxes support,” warned Stanford.

“We’ll pay dearly for that kind of attitude in coming years. Progressive forces will face an intense and challenging battle to preserve public services against budget cuts, fighting back against right-wing forces that want to downsize public services and programs in the face of current budget deficits.”
.....

Ontario HST is not BC HST

All this noise about the Ontario HST from David Robertson is completely beside the point; there the provincial government bargained for a lot of concessions from Harper so the HST in Ontario is relatively uncontroversial and does not represent a huge tax shift from corporations to individuals.

Here the HST is controversial because it does represent such a huge tax shift. I don't have a clue whether Gordon Campbell meant that result or just was incompetent. Let's be kind and say it was incompetency. According to him he made the deal in a very short time after the last election . If we can trust him on that, then I guess he was so focused on the bribe from Harper to get the deal done, that he didn't read the fine print. But as a result of the deal basically BC individuals got screwed with higher tax on many different items that were tax free before under the PST.

We have a chance to get out of this bad deal only by voting YES in the referendum to drop the HST and bring back the old combination of GST + PST. My family voters have done that, and I am encouraged that so many other commenters here have done the same. Of course, this is a select group, but from the responses here I am hoping for a landslide YES.

yessiree

"...a strong civil society ...must be supported by taxes..."

And those taxes should be fair and equitable - distributed according to ability to pay among the stakeholders in that society -
Not dumped on the heads and pocketbooks of consumers - irrespective of their ability to pay - and removed entirely from the books of businesses and corporations

We're already paying dearly for a government in this province which has given business a free ride, increased fees for services, cut back on public services and rewarded its friends.

You ought to see the HST was the straw that broke the camel's back in this province - at the same time that we've given corporations and businesses a free ride.

get rid of regressive taxes

It's time to make the corporations start paying their share...get rid of goods and services taxes...institute proper progressive taxation and only tax luxury items... yachts...private jets...luxury automobiles...

David Robertson and Cool Hand

The SMART TAX ALLIANCE are BOLD-FACED LIARS...

The proof is here, this story explains itself......Because Mr. Jim Stanford was on the radio with Billy Good at CKNW...

Jim Stanford on radio called the HST "regressive"...Stanford called the HST in BC useless...Stanford was asked directly about the HST...He said...

"NO to the HST..No to all sales TAX...Straight income taxes for individuals and corporations"

Read more here...Plus a link to the CKNW audio vault!

http://powellriverpersuader.blogspot.com/2011/07/smart-tax-allianceliars-liars-liars.html

Enjoy the Read Cool hand Luke and David shill Robertson...

Don`t you edit this...All statements are proven...Including Jim Stanford forcing the Smart Tax Alliance to retract and remove a private email and retract any notion the CAW has endorsed the HST

And now an extra 2 cents per litre!

Why do the various arms of government have this belief that we have an unlimited amount of money to give them in taxes? The latest additional 2 cents a litre plus even more taxes to be determined later just floors me. We just had the yearly increase of the other carbon tax. I will definitely be voting YES and I will also be voting against my local mayor! Too bad I can't vote Translink out of office too!

Pro-HST recap

Ever since Gordon Campbell and Colin Hansen announced that BC was going to adopt the HST the citizens of BC have been subjected to a constant line of misinformation.

When one considers that three of the Maritime Provinces have had the HST for 14 years and are still economic basket cases, one cannot help but question any claims to the contrary.

Another big concern is that if a taxation change is so much better then why do roughly one-quarter of the citizens of BC require a subsidy(rebate)to make it palatable?

Why does the government need to offer a further enticement of a one-time cheque to soften the impact of the HST on people with children under 18 and seniors with incomes south of $40,000?

The way I see it is that this tax is the most unfair tax one could impose upon its citizens and the government is using rebates and bribes to coerce the great unwashed to accept it.

There is something totally wrong with this picture.

Dunno Lukie

Seems to me Stanford's been pretty frank about his views relative to the HST...the slime in this debate is all oozing out of the pro HST side.

Who pays David Robertson's salary?

I know who pays Jim Stanfords!

Ahhh, the spite votes.

Love em.

Who here figures they are going to save money if the HST is voted down and on what grounds do you make that assumption?

@snert

I paid less before - a lot less - and when the Liberals are gone and maybe sooner, I will pay less again. Now if I have to pay a bit for the mess left by the liberals, as long as business doesn't expect me to pick up their share, I will gladly pay a little more. I'll gladly pay a bit more just to get rid of the toads.

The Jobs are in the mail

I was reading a article in the sleazy Vancouver Sun on how business is planning on hiring in the fall because of the HST. It must be some sort of rebuttal because there have been no job creation. However I believe much like the HST ballots jobs will get lost in the mail. BC has seen a steady decline in job creation and job loses especially for the youth as low paying jobs aren't that easy to find. That is not about to change anytime soon as small business continues to close its doors at a steady pace. And lets not forget government is also busy at the chopping block as public servants and services they provide will also be at a loss.
This whole mail in referendum is bogus and leaves you feeling like you been duped again as Scampbell steps down for lying about the HST. Clark takes his place and conveniently moves up the referendum during a mail strike which government was fully aware of when setting the date. I don't know if this is so much about the left or right as much as it is about dishonesty and corruption that got the voters upset about a government they couldn't trust. And of course voters had no use for the HST and not much has changed as Clark stays true to Scampbells style because she doesn't have one of her own.

correction

The youth in BC are finding it extremely difficult to find full-time employment as many face being laid off or having their hours cut as job loses are the highest in BC as compared to the rest of the country. Why is that?

Accountability counts

In these kind of mail in votes I think each voter should be assigned an identity number eg. 1008 that also indicates the home riding of the voter.

Then a list of all identity numbers along with their riding should be published with how that voter voted. That way the voter maintains his/her anonymity but can check to verify that his/her vote has indeed been counted and counted correctly.

It would also supply needed information about how certain ridings voted - rural vs urban - while still providing confidentiality.

We would also be able to check the number of identity numbers assigned with the number of eligible voters in each riding...so that the possibility of any sneaky games being played is reduced....I mean, why would we start trusting this government now?

critical thinking

You know with all due respect to Robertson and other who promote this tax; I have repeatedly read this statement; a statement that Robertson made himself one day this week in another thread.

“The HST will be good for the economy.”

While this statement might be true and it is always good to have a good “outlook” often times people forget to look at "outcome."

So let us all contact someone in the Maritimes to have them tells us the “outcome” of having the HST for more than a decade and a half.

As a matter of fact why are the pro-HST people not doing this?

CREATING JOBS IN BC

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED] Liberals had a chance to create about 500 well paying jobs in the shipyards, instead of that they sent $500 million to Germany to build 3 ferries for BC Ferry Corp. now we have 3 pieces of junk from Germany that the BC Ferry Corp can not find a way to make them able to sail in BC waters in a efficient and cost effective way. Goodby $500 million and goodby to 500 well paying jobs. [OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED] (Liberals) are onto trying to get shipyard workers trained so we in BC can compete for the Federal ship building contracts. Go figure.

HST Serves New Brunswick Well

To Pianosaurus Rex

You suggested that we should contact people from the Maritime Provinces and ask them how well they have been served by the HST for the past 14 years.

That is an excellent suggestion!

Here is former New Brunswick Premier Frank MacKenna's piece from Saturday's Vancouver Sun. http://t.co/U6iLvOg

(And for those who have asked: I am not being paid by anyone to advocate for the HST. As a sales tax specialist, I have been advocating for the abolition of PST and harmonization with the federal GST/HST for more than a decade. And I have done so, I should note, despite the fact that the resulting simplification that results from the elimination of the PST is bad for my practice. After all, with HST, I now only advise clients on how to comply with one sales tax system, not two as I had to do when we had both PST and GST in BC.)

Robertson

Thanks for the link. I have read what Mc Kenna states although he provides no substantiation for many of the claims he makes in the article.

Also when I read the Vancouver Sun I have to lean over to the right at 45 degrees because the coverage is so slanted.

Now if this is such a good tax program then the present government can make this their election issue in the fall as Christy just can’t seem to wait to go to the polls.

Regarding your revelations about being a sales tax specialist and how this has diminished your business with clients, I sincerely hope you do not dislocate your shoulder patting yourself on the back.

Once again the statement; “The HST is good for the economy.” Who’s economy? Mine or big business?

This is the same economic model that recently melted down. This is the same economic model that one junior executive in a couple of moves crippled one 400 year old bank; the Barings Bank in Britain. Talk about fragility of the model indeed……if one guy can cripple a system like that how solid is the economic system? Very fragile indeed.

The no side will lose plain and simple. The only way they win is to corrupt the voting process. And we all collectively in BC have a long record of continued corruption with this government.

G West

Over the long haul, I think not. To cancel the HST is just pissing away good money after bad. Money that could probably go to other causes.

http://fighthst.com/hst-extinguishment-act-for-the-citizens-initiative-against-the-hst-in-bc/

It won't come cheap.

Frank McKenna

Past Primier of New Brunswick would stick up for the HST, after initiating it in New Brunswick and on leaving office is appointed as Embassador to the USA. Nice perk, and Frank is a business person that gets subsidized by the citizns of New Brunswick paying for all his tax breaks.

@snert

I disagree - and the evidence, in my view, is more convincing for my case than yours - especially in this province where, at least 80% of the time, we have governments who care more about business profits than about 'other causes' - which I take to mean something positive.

Nothing of real value comes cheap - among which - real democracy.