Jack attacks too...

"...The results sadly vindicate the Conservative strategy of demonizing Liberal leader Michael Ignatieff with negative attack ads, damaging his credibility so much the NDP leapfrogged into second place...."

Whoa...must've dreamed those NDP attacks ads against Ignatieff. It would be more accurate to say "the results sadly vindicate the NDP strategy of parroting Conservative attack ads to leapfrog into second place".

Time to roll up your sleeves and get to work for Quebecers.

Qui est votre Papa?

Qui est votre papa?

How long will people stand

How long will people stand for this? 4 years? 8 years? 20 years? 40 years?

------

The Canadian sheep will bitch and whine then do nothing....baa baaa

I'm boycott any media that endorsed Harper

including a major Vancouver radio station that allowed him to campaign today, live, on air.

They want their buddy in? They don't get my money.

I'm done with them.

all this election proves

Is that Canadians are still a lot better at throwing the rascals they know out, than they are at keeping them out in the first place. As a result, the results were entirely predictable. The part of the population that knows what it wants out of Canada voted to get it. The part of the population that was looking for a new vision that wasn't greedy and racist voted with their heads, but in splitting their vote, came up short.

The Liberals haven't spent enough time in the political woodshed. Everyone knew it, but kept hoping for an antidote to Harpermania. Hopefully they'll take the next four years to begin a thorough housecleaning - deadwood candidates, old policies that had less to do with vision and more to do with staying in power, and especially getting rid of the backroom boys, most especially in Ontario and Quebec who've horse-traded the principles of the country for swing votes in areas of the country that don't matter any more. PErhaps in a dozen or so years, they'll be ready to be welcomed back into the political debate of the country. For now... no.

Nothing to be done but live it out for the next four years, knowing that the majority voted with engagement, intelligence and integrity.

Although it still beats me how Wai Young could have been elected over Ujjal Dosanjh. The scandalous news on her to date doesn't even begin to demonstrate the depths of the vindictive, bitchy monotheism this woman displays in all her work. She is truly convinced she's right, no matter what she does.

Listened to most of Harper's speech, though, tonight. I wonder what it means, sounding conciliatory as he did. He has to know that I, and a healthy chunk of people like me, perhaps even a majority of the country, stand for absolutely none of the principles... ooops, definitely the wrong word, there.... issues he raised in the election, and are scared to death of what he left unsaid, living the last month as he did in a bubble unpenetrated by any reporter or Canadian voter with the intelligence of a house plant.

The T. Star was the only major paper not to endorse the CPC.

For the next 4 years, they all get to wear this. I guess being barred from asking questions really doesn't bother their journalistic integrity...

Wikileaks revealed....

....that Harper exhibits "Vindictive Pettiness" according to US Ambassador To Canada.

Be prepared to see much by way of [UNSUBSTANTIATED AND UNFAIR CHARACTERIZATION REMOVED. GODWIN'S LAW INVOKED. -MODERATOR.].

Bill T.

"Harper's voters really don't care."

Ain't that the truth. They're disengaged.

Low Voter Turnout ...

... is also understood to be partially because of contentment.

"Mr. Ignatieff, a former professor, said he would return to the classroom. "

We're not yet sure if he intends to either take or give lessons. Clarification anticipated soon.

toquer

The positive campaign of the NDP versus the constant personal attacks by the Liberals. Progressive Canadians prefer the NDP.

Off topic

This discussion was supposed to be about what Harper will do with his majority. There is no doubt about that. He'll do more of what he has already done and/or tried to do. We have to accept that that is what people voted for. Jack ran a fantastic campaign, and the people also knew what they voted for betting on his program. The problem of the liberals is a point in time. It has probably been abandoned by the bunch of opportunists that always dogged that party and pulled it down - just think Campbell, the great whiner - now it has a solid chance of finding its soul again and build from the ground up. Liberalism is great, when it's not hampered by all the hangers-on that just wanna be on the gravy train. Conservativism IS the gravy train, and NDP is out to hijack the gravy train. In the shadow of these vultures, Liberalism can hope for a new and better day.

Be prepared to see much by way of Kristallnacht.

Please scrap the strident rhetoric! Were you there? Have you any idea what you're talking about? PLEASE debate on a better level than this!

My prediction.

This will be a tumultuous term for Harper. He can't help but advance some of those hot button issues which will put him at odds with ethnic groups on immigration issues, with women's groups and with environmentalists. There will be no way to avoid confrontation. Harper will revive the separatists in Quebec. It is Conservative/Reform nature to do so. My final prediction is that in five years he will be as hated as Mulrooney.

Put up or shut up

Skywalker is right.

For years Harper has been telling his base he can't give them what they want on social issues because he didn't have a majority. Now he does. No more excuses.

Yet Harper will want to be re-elected. My prediction is he will please his base because he knows he can't grow his numbers anyway.

dorothy

The Liberals are almost dead and they have no obvious path for growth. I'm sure you're thinking that all they have to do is remind people of past glories and they'll come back but I don't think that is the case.

The Progressive Conservatives died. The Liberals may now too. Its evolution. As Canadian society has become more divided between the haves and have-nots it makes sense our politics will change to reflect the new reality.

Harper couldn't care less

Harper couldn't care less that 60 percent of Canadians tax payers are not his friends. With a majority he can run over anything thinking people would expect from a government. Wonder when the first scandal appears?

First on the agenda:

Harper will announce the construction of the Death Star.

After that, the more contentious and nefarious parts of his agenda that will be supported by the hard-line right wingers will surface.

- not satisfied with a simple majority, he will drive the stake in the heart of (true) Libs by cutting off public funding
- he will make it much harder to collect EI
- he will continue to stifle any scientific evidence of climate change, and continue to make Canada an international embarrassment
- he will grant his version of the secret police even greater power

I could go on...

Dreams- not so good

A lot of "in four or five years" comments. Hmmm, how surprised will I be if "due to circumstances" elections have to be put on hold while events sort themselves out.
Ridiculous! you say? I say I have seen ridiculous for the last 20 tears in Canadian politics and it just gets worse and worser.

Prove me wrong, please. But the stage is set, the players ready to go.
Someone mentioned civil disobedience. You don't have the guts. That is not critical it is the truth.

We are in a hand basket...

Our direction is obvious.

Christy Clark

Interesting, but commonly held opinion regarding any message these results send to the BC Liberals. Yes, the Cdn Liberal brand has taken a significant hit and those who ran under the flag did as badly here as in other provinces, but the result also demonstrated that when you take out the mushy middle BCers favour the more rightwing option. And BCers do have the capacity to distinguish between the BC Liberal and Cdn Liberal brands. If anything, Christy Clark may want to strike before the upstart BC Conservatives are able to substantively muddle the message on the the rightwing offer.

Despite NDP efforts to pin the HST on the Harper Conservatives, BCers still increased their Tory vote. Rather than the federal election results, it is the June referendum that will decide the likelihood of a fall election. If Christy can escape the HST fallout with any grace, a strong argument exists for early on exploiting the polarized sentiment this election has brought to the surface.

Finally, Elizabeth May's victory sends a great message to BC Liberal strategists, who can take heart there will be a place for the few left leaning BC Liberals shed in a polarized campaign without harming the project.

fence-sitting

It was interesting to see no apparent discomfort in Harper's visage as, on the one hand he trolled for votes in the Sikh community with low-tax free-enterprise mantras while suppressing talk of restricting family reunification; and on the other hand, excoriated Tamils as lazy refugee claimants and potential terrorists.

Two peoples suppressed by majorities in their own countries, two bands of immigrants looking for freedom of thought and association. One gets the palm, the other gets the slap.

It won't take long for the racist aspects of this neo-Con alliance to come out.

Aptly named; the CONS

true colours will show through the veneer of politics!

Four years from now...

Four years from now, there is every chance Canada will no longer be a democracy.

So what the NDP might or might not be able to achieve in four years is moot.

You are right Zalm.

If you listen to some of the comments made by people who you know vote for Harper, they will have an expectation that the government should suppress all these requests from ethnic groups for some recognition. It won't take long and the tensions will grow because harper won't be able to deliver to one without offending the other.
.

What Harper will do.

The long-gun registry will go, so will election financing (that $2 per vote), The Canada Health Act will be amended to allow for more for-profit clinics. He'll buy his expensive fighter jets, build more prisons. Appoint more Tory judges. He won't get rid of the Senate because he now has control of it and it is a nice depository for loyal Tory bagmen and sycophants. He'll disband wheat boards and any other board that protects Canadian Farmers. He'll do it all in the first year so the howling will have faded in four years.

Have I missed anything?

Layton won big?

We'll see. Layton has a whole bunch of new MP's, many of which weren't serious candidates. Quebec will be back in play next election.

And IF Layton stays healthy (a big if), we'll see how well his public persona holds up after 4 years of attack ads. Harper will have Canadians convinced that Layton eats kittens for lunch.

ReeferMadness

I expect you're correct - Harper destroyed Ignatieff and now he's gonna start on the NDP/Bloc coalition.

That's how it'll come down, in my view.

Layton's socialists and separatists in and unholy COALITION to frustrate the desires of Western Canada and spoil the future of the 'real Canada'.

Just watch.

There are no depths to which this man will not stoop.

Today you are allowed four questions. -

Tomorrow it's down to three.

And so it goes.....

More calls for PR as usual

Chretien won 172 seats in 1997 with 37% of the vote. I don't remember much complaining about the FPTP system back then. Get over it. You win some, and you lose some. Yesterday you lost. Next time out you might well win. Then I guess it will be my turn to whine for PR or some other form of affirmative action for political losers.

Skywalker, I hope he does every one of those things, and soon. The CWB protecting Canadian farmers? Not the farmers that support the Conservatives, I can tell you that much. They want that thing GONE, and in fact, their support for the Conservatives is conditional on getting rid of it. They are on constituency that will be demanding immediate action, and they'll get it.

Another thing Harper will do

"Have I missed anything?"

Yep - he'll overturn INSITE's permit and the drugs will be out on the street again.

RagingRanter

"I don't remember much complaining about the FPTP system back then."

Then you weren't listening because there was a lot more than there is now. The only reason there's so little now is because electoral change was defeated in BC, Ontario and PEI since then.

"I don't remember much

"I don't remember much complaining about the FPTP system back then"

Well, the Reform Party were a pretty whiney bunch... but to my point:

Plenty of regular posters here have advocated for electoral reform – well before this election. There's a lot of support for electoral reform among NDP and Green supporters. That shouldn't be a surprise given typical Federal election results.

I doubt electoral reform will be top of mind for NDP MPs after last night's results, though. Perhaps the reality of being official opposition with considerably less influence will get it on the agenda.

hope springs eternal - or: roll up your sleeves!

"I'm sure you're thinking that all they have to do is remind people of past glories.."

I cannot imagine what would have you be sure of that. What past glories? unless you're into archeology, which I'm not. For ages, that party has been the harried battleground of various and sundry groups of grasping opportunists, with a few decent folks who had kind of stumbled on its doorstep and usually escaped minus their skin as scalded-and-peeled potatoes. Just look at Bob Rae's presence and prominence in the party! Completely incongruous. He ain't a Liberal, but a has-been NDP'er, now reduced to taking potshots at the guy who found a way to make a go of it.

There's nothing wrong with Liberalism per se, at least not the honest upright fraternite-egality-liberte, or whatever the order was. There is something grossly wrong with the washed-out lame kind of so-called Liberalism we have seen in operation for many a year, choking on its own political correctness in all directions and getting cricks and bunions everywhere from the effort. It has lost its identity and its soul. I am not sure whether 34 seats will get so lean as to unload all the infidels, or we need to go ALL the way to the bottom. In the natural course of events, that purging process is needed for the party to ever have the living chance of coming back as a party worth putting trust in. If you're wondering how I voted on that background, I voted Liberal, and my candidate won her seat, and I think she is a decent woman after having had to learn a few hard lessons. She is one of those I don't believe is in it for the gravy, and by the help of which small select group the party can start to regain its substance.

"As Canadian society has become more divided between the haves and have-nots it makes sense our politics will change to reflect the new reality."

And, some years down the road, after having been thrown back and forth between the traders and the raiders, Canadians may look with some bit of hope to people who can actually give reasons for their recommendations other than SOME brand of greed. They may be looking for..more, if you get my drift.

As for Christy Clark, the only thing about her that's liberal is the co-opted brand. Otherwise, she represents the worst about that party of what I have just described above. I sincerely hope she is not given any legitimacy by the the voters in Dave Eby's riding.

dorothy

"What past glories?"

Laurier, King, St.Laurent, Pearson, Trudeau, Chretien.

"Just look at Bob Rae's presence and prominence in the party! Completely incongruous. He ain't a Liberal, but a has-been NDP'er now reduced to taking potshots at the guy who found a way to make a go of it."

Who is Bob Rae taking potshots at? As for his being an NDPer, he doesn't sound like one.

"It has lost its identity and its soul."

I agree, its also got a lot of people in the party that don't agree with each other. Think about it, you, Luke, Wilf and others are all Liberals yet you don't agree on very much here on the Tyee. At some point the Liberals have to stop trying to pretend they can be everything to every voter and instead say where they stand. And then continue to stand in that same spot once elected.

"And, some years down the road, after having been thrown back and forth between the traders and the raiders, Canadians may look with some bit of hope to people who can actually give reasons for their recommendations other than SOME brand of greed. They may be looking for..more, if you get my drift."

Not sure that I do, but it sounds like you're hoping Canadians will become exhausted by the NDP and Cons and will gravitate back to a more centrist option.

"As for Christy Clark, the only thing about her that's liberal is the co-opted brand. Otherwise, she represents the worst about that party of what I have just described above. I sincerely hope she is not given any legitimacy by the the voters in Dave Eby's riding."

Yet other Liberals on this forum love her. Which is my point, does anyone really know what the Liberals are?

OK. again then...

"Laurier, King, St.Laurent, Pearson, Trudeau, Chretien."

As I said, archeology, at least politically speaking. Trudeau and Chretien were such raging successes that the party attracted a lot of people looking for opportunity rather than being driven by any serious conviction. It reeked at party meetings. Even the meanest riding association had an inside circle and saw all kinds of manipulations and positioning to guard turf. I know. I was there.

"Which is my point, does anyone really know what the Liberals are?"

Yes, as I said before, they are a mish-mash of people many of whom don't belong in the party. Sadly, I believe Michael Ignatieff is the real deal, and now we have lost him. No, Bob Rae doesn't sound like an NDP'er now, but he certainly came from there, and then changed party color as fitted his career I imagine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Rae

He is taking potshots at Taliban Jack for screwing over the Liberals in the election, something about promising the Quebeckers to mess with the constitution in their favor.

But what Liberalism is, I have no doubt. You can read all about it here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/cihm_24194/cihm_24194_djvu.txt

I don't know if I see the Canadian electorate simply 'gravitating towards a more centrist option'. This seems to reiterate the perception that Liberalism is no more than neither fowl nor fish, but merely 'centrist'. I believe it to be a positive entity with distinct definitions and a body of ideological foundations. As you can read in Sir Wilfrid Laurier's lecture.

dorothy

Ignatieff did seem like a decent guy and I think his attacks on Harper over how Parliament should function were spot-on. Canada is poorer for his loss.

Anyway, I've taken enough PoliSci to know what Liberalism is. I'm talking more about actual Liberal party positions, not the overall philosophy. I assume you're more of a classic Liberal and not a "blue" Liberal as Luke calls himself. There's no doubt there's a huge divide in your party though.

"He is taking potshots at Taliban Jack for screwing over the Liberals in the election, something about promising the Quebeckers to mess with the constitution in their favor. "

I'll assume "Taliban Jack" was just you being lighthearted. Anyway, Rae has to say that. The NDP have been promising to try and bring Quebec into the Constitution for years. I support that. As for "screwing over the Libs", that's not what happened. Liberal party brass seem to believe the NDP should only attack the Cons even when we take fire from the Liberals. If Ignatieff is going to say there's only two doors and that Layton has no chance of being PM and so on he has to expect being called on his attendance record.

FPTP

de·moc·ra·cy:
government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the majority of the people

40% is not a majority but under a FPTP system it is. This is NOT democratic and anyone who supports it cannot call themselves a democrat.

dorothy

You may have already seen it but there's an article on what Liberals should do in the Globe today. Thought you might like it.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/second-reading/andrew-steele/the-liberal-culture-of-defeat/article2011029/page1/

What Harper will do with his majority...

...reduce Medicare to a 60/40, private/public model

...destroy political choice/dis-empower people by ending public funds to political parties.

...remake Canada...according to his own ideals.

The rest is predictable pandering...law/order/gas/oil/cowsh*t.

We got the government we deserve.

Next election 48 months. Enjoy.

Frank

Thanks very much for the reference. It was indeed worth reading.

I don't know if I can answer to 'true blue', for I cannot find a certain definition of the term. I will say that most of my political convictions come from this opinion, which I share with the author:

"Peace is not simply an absence of war, it is a virtue, a state of mind, a disposition for benevolence, confidence, justice."

Baruch Spinoza Theological-Political treatise (1670)

So, whatever Liberalism I adhere to would be the one that would act on this recognition. I see that in the political speeches and writings of Sir Wilfrid Laurier, for instance this famous quote:

"I am a Liberal. I am one of these who think that everywhere, in human things, there are abuses to be reformed, new horizons to be opened up, and new forces to be developed."

-Sir Wilfrid Laurier, June 1877

and so if this makes me 'true blue', I'll answer to the name, and be proud of it. Thank you for your interest and support. I know we are not espousing the same party, but as long as we each of us do what is in us to do, the best we can, and treat each other with respect, I think we can become bigger and better. Harper called it 'always looking to be more'. I certainly hope he means it in just a remotely similar way to what it would mean to most Canadians.

Anything He Wants

He will beef up immigration to 350,000 new Canadians each year while busily cutting services as employees hit the chopping block.
And more pipelines is a given and the spills that come attached as Alberta Premier is angry about the latest biggest oil spill Alberta. Premier says industry was to fault and was to dam negligent and he was going to make sure Big Oil cleaned it all up.
Harper promises oils spills will not happen because Oil Industry knows what it is doing and so does Harper yet another major oil spill. British Columbians must be ecstatic with the prospect of their own pipelines along with the oil spills that come attached.
With Harper on top no one is going to be able to stop the Conservatives from doing what ever they want, very secretively and dishonestly of course. Harper has plenty of help when it comes to that.
Harper will continue to focus on the burdens of corporations as taxes are at an all time low and the Canadian dollar is up.
Fortune said that America's top companies profited by boosting productivity and cutting jobs. Like Wal-Mart, they also relied on growing operations overseas. The strategy helped them increase earnings 81 per cent to $318 billion.
However in Canada Big Corporations have a different strategy instead of focusing on increased production and cutting job they will focus on hiring new employees because of tax breaks they already have sitting in the bank and forgo the extra profits from increased efficiency or that is what Canadians are being told. Media will continue to keep things under mats and Canadians will continue on the same, only with a lot more to complain about.

Harper knows what he is doing

He had packaged himself as the full meal deal while many Canadians go without. It is unfortunate his best is "always looking for more," while many Canadians without but it is paying off big time for major Corporations, for Canadians not so much.

dorothy

Quite true, the thing is outside of 5 weeks every 4 years, the Liberals aren't my enemy.

And the NDP taking seats from the Liberals won't make any of you social-democrats.

Bill Tieleman clarifies on Iggy attack ads

To Toquer – my point was that the Conservatives ran attack ads against Ignatieff for a year and half on TV and elsewhere BEFORE the election. That’s when he got tattooed for voters.

Of course the NDP ran attack ads on the Liberals and vice-versa during the campaign – that’s normal in all elections.

The Conservatives massive financial advantage allows them to negatively define and frame their opponents prior to elections spending restrictions during a campaign.

That advantage will only grow when public funding for political parties ends – another Harper promise that will be kept.

So as Murray Dobbin rightly noted in his Tyee article this week, those who care better send money to the party of their choice – because Conservatives sure are.

Lastly, who is responsible for this Tory advantage? Why, none other than Jean Chretien, the Liberal PM who ended corporate and union donations for parties!

The Liberals were so corporately dependent they never built an individual donor base sufficient to survive. Neither have the Greens nor the Bloc – the second best machine is the NDP’s.

Bill

That's true as far as it goes - what I can't understand is why people don't support the idea of a per-vote levy as the main way of supporting political parties - it seems to work pretty well in a lot of other jurisdictions doens't it.

What you're describing sounds like the kind of machine politics we read about all the time in the US.

Why would anyone want to move further down that route?

For example

The International Institute for Democracy and Electoral Assistance has suggested the following:

Party financing should aim to strike an innovative balance between a shortage of funds, which is no good for a sustainable democracy, and a waste of money, which is no good for a healthy democracy. This requires voter checks based on reliable information and sanctions, and statutory incentives for fundraising. Incentives to build a sustainable financial base work better than penalising wrong-doers. ‘Best practice’ should aim to:

Build public confidence through realistic measures to improve transparency.
Encourage grass-roots funding while ensuring it is not parties’ only source of finance. This can be done partly through legal incentives for contributors and fundraisers.
Take a pragmatic approach to discouraging dangerous sources of funds.
Provide limited public funding. This could match party fundraising and be in the form of subsidies in kind or indirect support, rather than cash. Parties that ignore transparency obligations should be excluded.
Create a supervising agency that is judicially independent and strikes a balance between law enforcement, auditing and meeting parties’ needs.
Implement measures that support increased participation of women in political parties.

You can download the study here:

http://www.idea.int/publications/funding_parties/index.cfm

And, if you're looking for more detailed, Canada specific

And, if you're looking for more detailed, Canada specific stuff you can't go far wrong if you start with the report of the Royal Commission on Electoral Reform.

You can find it here:
http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection/J31-61-2004E.pdf

Interestingly, it's main reccommendation is:
"...we recommend(ed)...the federal government draft legislation that would introduce a
mixed member proportional electoral system, and include some form of citizen engagement process to review this proposed legislation."

"... there is no constitutional requirement for a referendum to endorse changes to the electoral system."

"Finally, we recommend... a mechanism for reviewing the new system, and for allowing the public to indicate its satisfaction or dissatisfaction with the reforms and with other aspects of democratic performance."

One wonders if our current Prime Minister has ever taken the trouble to even READ the report and its recommendations.