Alive

I don't agree that the NDP should have taken the lead on the FightHST campaign. If they had, the MSM would have just accused the NDP of trying to fight the election again, and after a few rallies the issue would have fallen by the wayside.

Having unelected people such as Vander Zalm, Tieleman and Delaney take the lead kept the party politics issue, that the MSM would have surely attempted to employ, at bay long enough for the movement to gain traction. Just reflect back to many articles and discussions on the radio on the pros and cons of the HST. At first some of the proponents of the HST actually tried to convince us how good it would be, but were just not convincing enough to most of BCers. Now that recall has entered the picture the Liberal types seem to be using mostly character assassination and their perceived version of past NDP governments as valid arguments for the HST, which has absolutely nothing to do with whether the tax is good or bad.

I disagree with Raif on whether recall should be used in this situation. When pollsters are coming up with results where 80% or more of the population are against something, and the government ignores this, recall is the only option available. Until such time as our elected officials get the message that the voters' views must be respected, they should know that doing otherwise can have its consequences. Waiting for the next election is not acceptable. And those whiners that cry about being the subject of recall should just thank their lucky stars that they live in Canada. There are many other countries where the consequences lead to much more permanent outcomes.

The voters smell blood

They won't be satisfied til at least one Liberal is recalled. Maybe more.

I wish

I wish that the Tyee had a thumbs up or down button. I fully agree with everything that crankypants said, and would like to express a big "Thumbs up".

Nice covers cowardice

" the game is still Carole James' to win, provided she learns what the political rules are in down-and-dirty politics and starts to play by them "

James is coward who uses niceness as cover for her yellow streak. Still it's probably a good idea to keep her out of the fight as this shrill stupid woman is so bereft of speaking and debating skills she can drive thousands of voters away in a single televsion appearance. It is indeed fortunate she is staying out of the recall/HST battle as she is Gordo's most potent weapon in the battle.

Rafe of course is being a hypocrite here telling us that recall wasn't meant to take out a sitting government.

The recall campaign is "Down and dirty politics" at its best. For the sake of British Columbian's lets hope it works better than Kevin Falcon's Total Recall.

My different opinion

I think Rafe that you may have missed the point of Bills' crossover in this fight. He knows he was a driving force in the Initiative. And has now worked out a way for organizers to possibly work a little harder in getting canvassers to the table. I don't think of it as a game but as a contest. The word game in this instance was first used by the Lieberals and it apparently has stuck.
Now, having said all that I don't think that Bill Vander Zalm is ignorant of tghe fact that it is not he who can say when people can file for recall. That is up to one or more people registered to vote in each riding.
We also haven't seen the end of the Lieberal dirty tricks in this fight either.
I'd like to thank Bill for thinking of something that will keep people interested enough and keeping alive the fact that this is about the biggest tax transfer, and MlLA's not doing the bidding of their constituents at least in my memory.

must disagree

don't agree with this article at all

1. recall is a tool for political accountability, whether individual MLAs or a change in government. However it is an arduous tool that can only be exercised under very rare circumstances when there is a highly motivated electorate.

2. I admire Vander Zalm stepping up to the plate. He's (along with Chris Delayney and Bill Tieleman) have been a far more effective opposition than the "official opposition". Carol James should take pointers! The Zalm has been three steps ahead of the government and a government that will stop at nothing to defeat him.

3. The MSM is now mounting a scurrilous attack against Mr. Vander Zalm. Vaughn Palmer's Sept 29 column was disgusting. See Harvey Oberfeld's take on Palmer dragging up issues from decades ago.

Who cares about VanderZalm's political record? he's not running for office. He is galvanizing the electorate though and citizens may actually be able to reclaim our democracy.

No wonder government, business and the MSM are so opposed. Imagine: government having to be accountable to the people. No more four year-dictatorships.

If recall is successful in BC it will be adopted across the country.

So Be It

Mair wrote: "Thus it is, I contend, an abuse of the spirit of recall to use it to threaten a government's existence rather than just for ousting bad MLAs."

Every MLA who voted in favour of the HST is a "bad MLA". If they are recalled, and this results in a collapse of the government, so be it. That is simply the consequence of having a large number of "bad MLAs".

Those who wish to recall their MLAs should not be constrained by concerns over what the cumulative effect might be on government. That goes WELL beyond the spirit of recall legislation.

Mainstream Media Bias

I agree with off-the-radar. I, too, was disgusted by Vaughn Palmer's article. The recall campaign is much more than Vander Zalm or any of the other fringe elements Palmer exclusively focused on. A successful recall campaign doesn't mean they have any better chance of being elected than in a regular election. Yes, the political vacuum is in the centre.

Romeogolf

"Yes, the political vacuum is in the centre."

S'cuse me, but where is the political left then?

The NDP is trying so hard to be centre that it has lost all its appeal as a left-leaning party.

What has happened here is that the media has convinced voters that centre oriented platforms are indeed left-leaning and anything further left is Commie-stuff.

A Bridge Too Far

Kudos to Vander Zalm and Delaney on the first successful use of the initiative in BC. No small feat by any stretch. Funny though, right after Elections BC tallied up the vote, Delaney stated the initiative referendum route was too onerous, that the bar was set so high that it would be virtually impossible to meet the 50% of registered voters threshold.

Then Delaney came out and stated that if the initiative referendum would provide for a simple majority/plurality and the outcome would be binding same would be acceptable to the Fight HST campaign. That's what they got but apparently that's not good enough for 'em now.

Vander Zalm does have a history of attracting characters on the far right-wing fringe of politics. While premier, he hired assistants who believed in an international banking conspiracy and other loony ideas. One reason why he destroyed the Social Credit Party.

Fast forward and the Fight HST campaign appointed Al Romanchuk, follower of neo-nazi Ernst Zundel, as the lead recall organizer for the riding of Kelowna-Lake Country. The incumbent MLA is Norm Letnick who is Jewish. Imagine the political optics of that recall campaign had Romanchuk remained in place. The damage is done.

The 3 likeliest ridings for recall success have also been bungled out of the starting gate:

1. Cariboo Chilcotin: Former NDP MLA Charlie Wyse was initially named by Fight HST as the recall organizer in that riding.

2. Boundary Similkameen - Former Con candidate John Slater (who received the highest Con vote in BC at 20%) was initially named by Fight HST as the recall organizer in that riding.

3. Kamloops Noth Thompson - Local NDP member and party organizer Chad Moats was named by the Fight HST campaign as the recall organizer in that riding.

The political optics of these choices (whether or not they remain figureheads) is that they will now be labeled as re-fighting the May, 2009 election all over again on the basis of their own personal interests. And that's where the Fight HST campaign has stumbled and made strategic errors right out of the starting gate.

Never a dull moment in the sport of BC politics.

Donna Barnett won her riding by 88 votes.

All the PAB'ing in the world won't change that fact.

BTW Did Charlie Wyse lose his rights as a citizen, or something?

I don't think so.

ANTYONE who is a voter can initiate a recall.

Kevin Falcon did it with his Total Recall campaign.

And now he's in government.

OK for Kevin but not for NDP'ers?

It's OK if you're a Liberal, I guess.

Refighting the election? You gotta be kidding!

the MSM would have just accused the NDP of trying to fight the election again" Maybe but that claim would have fallen flat since the Liberals lied about the HST before the election and then introduced it after. That is a very clear and distinct justification for recall. I doubt anyone would have paid much attention to the MSM.

The NDP should have done their own thing on this issue but a much more vocal expression of outrage might have been the least they could do. The local NDP MLA was absolutely useless in communicating with his constituents and remains so today.

Refighting the election? Taht is just plain horses&#t. That is what they said when some of the NDP were being recalled in the 90's and then the issues were fuzzy and it was more just a hate-on for the party in power. Now it is different because it is a specific issue (HST) and a specific action is being demanded by the constituents. Repeal the HST and you are safe till the next election. To not do anything means you condone lying to get elected and sometimes I think the NDP takes this whole exercise to lightly.

What we should have had is another court action on election fraud as again this one is very specific - a lie to get elected.

Donna Barnett's Riding

An interesting local issue in Donna Barnett's riding of Cariboo Chilcotin- the proposed Prosperity Mine, which is supported by 100 Mile House council, Willimas Lake council, the local regional district and a majority of people in the area. The economy up there needs a shot in the arm both in terms of employment and spin-offs.

Of course, FN and enviros oppose same but up there they are in the minority. And that's an interesting local dynamic. Do you recall your MLA because she supports the Prosperity mine and have her replaced by Charlie Wyse, who opposes the mine? A local bread and butter issue with a much higher financial impact than the HST.

Red Herring Luke.

This one is about lying to get elected and then imposing the HST over the objections of the population and delaying the required referendum for a year so you can play in the sandbox a little longer hoping people forget. Everything else is a red herring you try to inject into the discussion..

Red Herring Luke.

This one is about lying to get elected and then imposing the HST over the objections of the population and delaying the required referendum for a year so you can play in the sandbox a little longer hoping people forget. Everything else is a red herring you try to inject into the discussion..

Stonewally Opal.

I'm not sure why Rafe threw this into the mix; maybe he wanted some discussion but I too found Wally's appointment inappropriate. Opal may once have had credibility by now he has no more credibility than any other BC liberal politician. He proved this throughout the Bazi/Virk trial by his performance in the legislature. On announcing the appointment Hanson sounded like he was giving his friend another very lucrative paycheck and as most commissions go that will be substantial. Those Campbell Liberals certainly do look after their own.

HST

It seems to be an organized campaign against Vander Zam. Vancouver Sun, Nanaimo News and now this paper. What is wrong that he took the initiative? You imply that he has some motive. Who doesn't have motives when come to politics??? At least he did something that nobody ever done: he collected 700,000 signatures in a pettition. I hope that they are succefull with the recall campaign. This smear campaign is very surprising from a newspaper like this one. Why are the papers so scared of Vander? He will not be back in politics because voters accepts what he is doing now, but will not accept him coming back. Also, we are not stupid and we can see the conservative party and/or another ones trying to use HST as a plataform. What the voter wants is very simple: take the HST out and boot out Campbell and his puppets.Too many lies. What I have not seeing so far is a decent explanation from Campbell or Hansen as to why this tax is good for the consumer. Nothing. Zip. They can't explain because it is not good for the consumer, it is good for business. Period. That is the truth. All the services that did not charged PST like hair cut, space rental for crafts in the local malls, accounts etc now are charging 12%. How this can be good for the consumer? The truth is just one: it was a lie from the start and unfortunately for the liberals, this time he went too far and the people got really mad. We, the medium class, are getting squeezed more and more and living from one paycheque to another while the big business are having profits in billions. Enough is enough, don't you think. I don't care if it is Vander or an allien pushing the issue, as long it keeps going.

The most noteworthy aspect

The most noteworthy aspect of this whole anti-HST business is that the charge against it is being led by one of the looniest right wing mothers this province ever voted for. I say noteworthy because it looks like it is working people who are most damaged by consumption taxes. I have not heard a squeak out of my union about it except the usual we'll get them in the next election crap.

The right seem just a little too eager to fill the protest vacuum once occupied by our own loony left. Not just locally either: everywhere.

The NDP are wise indeed to keep their distance from North Delta's most famous podium master. But it is also a shame they do not have anyone with half the public gusto van der Zalm brings to the table.

carioca

I think you are on the mark. If you check out the techniques used in spreading propaganda there are thirty specific categories and at the top of the list is Ad hominem. You can check them out but they include such techniques as: Ad nauseam, Appeal to fear, Big Lie, Demonizing the enemy, Disinformation, Half-truth, Red herring, Labeling, and Repetition.

The More .... The Better

I want the most mla's possible to be recalled and thrown out. Perhaps, then, we can start to believe democracy survives in the fascist province!

Rafe says....

"The intent of the B.C. version was the same, but it's in a system where recall can bring down the government. Thus it is, I contend, an abuse of the spirit of recall to use it to threaten a government's existence rather than just for ousting bad MLAs."

I don't agree with that statement at all. In this case, recall is being used for exactly the right reason. They are all bad Liberal MLAs for not speaking up when they were "informed" by Gordo and Huggie that they were expected to support a decision that they were not involved in making. Why bother electing and paying 85 MLAs if one or two make the important decisions and the rest just go along?

Also, in my opinion, if you lie to get re-elected the results of the election SHOULD be thrown out and declared null and void and we should hold a "re-do". We cannot and must not allow politicians to believe that they can tell out-and-out lies to get elected, and that they will be rewarded by allowing them to serve out the term. They need to be taught right now that will not happen.

By the way, Delaney doesn't seem to have gone anywhere. He issued another press release from Fight HST today.

Through or Around...

"I have not heard a squeak out of my union about it except the usual we'll get them in the next election crap." Mr Beer'n Hockey.

Which is what we have been hearing from these social dem, so called "trade union leaders" over the entire period since their betrayal of Operation Solidarity. And it's still the same old shit.

They surrendered on that day, handing up the Labour sword, with their heads bowed, to the victorious ruling class... and the haven't fought a serious battle with them since. And they don't intend to. In their little minds they have become a part of the system, the managers of the working class for the ruling class.

Which is where we currently are; a labour, so-called "leadership" that sees itself as THE front line management of the working class, part of the "on the job" ruling class "control system". With the only way out either through them, or around them, in an out-flanking movement.

Political centre

I agree with some of the other commenters. The political centre is well represented in BC -- by the New Democratic Party. I think most voters in the centre who refrain from voting for the NDP are doing so for historical reasons, not because of big disagreements with the actual NDP platform.

Absolutely thoughtful

Very good article Mr. Mair.

Say No More!

Actually, the only significant social/class element not well represented within or by what passes for democracy within Canadian capitalism is... the working class. Outside of that, everything is just chirping along tickety-boo. Except for a little too much mutual back slapping, stroking and grooming around that over crowded centre of course, where the status quo to capitalism gathers... including the late NDP. 8-D lol

It does explain the dearth of fresh ideas, to say nothing of action in what passes for Canadian politics though. But methinks that is maybe about to change a tad.

Eh wot, good-o, say no more, say no more, wink, wink.

If there's a stick handy, then use it

As politics is so often used for the personal advantages of politicians then I have no qualms about using Vander Zalm as a big smacking stick, especially against the likes of Campbell and the Liberal MLA's that are not smart enough to think for the people who voted for them.

I won't embrace Vander Zalm as a born again political leader, but he'll do just fine for smashing the Liberal thugs who are leading our province into debt and poverty.

Nice going guys. The Liberals deserve the worst, and if the Zalm is their worst nightmare then I am pleased to assist in raising the big stick to smash their arrogance and give them sleepless nights.

The biggest problem, as I see it, is that the people of the province are united over a negative movement, one set out to destroy. In this case it is the Liberal government. One has to be careful when united to destroy, but I think the recall plan has merrit in that it is a step by step methodical plan. The Liberals can save themselves for another day if they act with honour at any time in this process - but I think they will come crashing down anyway.

spot on coyoteman!

Where else but bc could the teamsters get away with wecoming the likes of falcon to sponsor a portion of their golf tourney? IWA had become such a cesspool with the likes of haggerdy selling out to campbell and shafting the heu, and then there`s the great labour organizer glen clark who like lots of our working class heros has discovered that organized money is way more powerful and a lot more sexy than organized labour so he goes a shilling for everyones favorite corporate predator pattison. vanderzalm has done more for common citizens in the past one year than carole james has and rver will in her whole political career.

A miss on the Ms.

It is not Carole James election to win.
She has betrayed virtually every NDPer in the province. Her attempted love affair with big business is embarassing and naive.
If someone with common sense comes up on the left or even center, they will take a lot of votes from the NDP. In her tenure as leader of the NDP, Carole has shown an uncanny capacity to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. There is little doubt but that she can do it again. Thousands of NDPers have left the party and Carole continues to alienate whoever is left.

EQUATING VANDER ZALM

There is absolutely no way on god's green earth that Vander Zalm can be compared with Lincoln, Ghandi or King. There is absolutely nothing Vander Zalm has ever done that begins to compare with the gargantuan missions and accomplishments of Lincoln, Ghandi and King. Of course you all know that. Writing this just makes me feel better after reading about Delaney's insult of insults.

Rafe, I thought you were genuine

Now when I read your artcicles Rafe, and see how you dis Campbell the way you always have, I'll remember. 'Yeah, but when he had a chance for change, when he could have used his considerable influence to RID us of this den of thieves, he did worse than nothing! He tried with all his might to stop the flow of power from ever reaching the people to whom it belongs. 'Recall,' he said, mincing no words if you read between the lines, 'is democracy. And democracy may be fine for Americans, but it's not for the likes of you.'
When it came down to the wire, he swerved hard right and damn the environment.

Incidently

If Mr. Vander Zalm remains the center of attention and puts a negative focus on the recall campaign, he should do the right thing. Are there capable people who could take his place? People who want to get this done?

the Middle IS the void, RM

...for within the blackhole of our political paradigm it does not matter where one orbits -- there is no escape from the corporate gravity. And just what does this say about our society, where people have been commoditized by the corporate masters yet the people do not seem to care?

We need a political awakening, a revelation of sorts. Pretending a balance can be reached, in our political system owned by and operated for money, between the servant-citizens and the city-state corporatists is laughable, self deception.

Now that may be how things play out; as Emma Goldman noted, "Material comforts are not conducive to the awakening of the mind". Still, when I read a piece like this, I think of its impact beyond what it addresses. For the article also works to solidify in the readers' minds that our political system is able to solve the problems we face.

The reality is that the unconscionable and virtually unaccountable, legal fictions are not designed to make comprehensive cost assessments. Ergo comprehensive solutions are logically unattainable.

Now if destruction of the ecology and the designed poverty of the masses is the objective we all seek, our political model is as good as it gets short of declared totalitarianism.

First BC

Then - Nova Scotia!
I say we ship the Zalm back east after he's finished tuning up the government here to show those tax and cut NDP'rs in NS that you can't lie to get elected and expect to get away with it.
They swore they would not raise taxes nor cut spending, after getting elected they immediately did both. HST increased to the highest in Canada at 15%(!)while announcing the government work force would be reduced by 10%(!)AND government worker pension plans would no longer be fully indexed(!!!)
That people hating government will have no idea what hit them after Hurricane Willy hits town...:)

The Void

Well put, samuidave. I entirely agree with you. As long as corporate power is corrupting government, whatever the location on the political spectrum, the problems we face will remain.

I also agree that the NDP has moved more to the centre. However, because of its association with labour and the left in the average person's mind, they won't easily form a government unless they rebrand.