I'm fighting off the tears,

I'm fighting off the tears, not of sadness but of boredom. It's a common reaction of us money reformers. All this intellectual, analytical energy wasted on peripherals.

There is no justification for the hst, or any tax, that survives in the clear light of the truth about money. It all boils down to this: money is loaned into existence by private entities that keep us in a perpetual state of debt slavery. So go ahead, give us yet another article about the evils of this or that financial injustice. As long as you ignore the facts about where money comes from, you're on their side.

The Simpleton's Notion

Why wait a year or two or three as can't take his word for it Campbell, if anything he has proved his word is no damm good so why leave Cambpell with the last word? What about Basi and Virk as character witnesses of Campbell's governments credibility is more like it because what Cambpell is never going to do is come clean. Never happen not in a billion years like the referendum as both are just talk only its depends what your are talking about like helping to derail the public so province will unload its future with the sell of the province's train which is unfortunate when the future is rail not trucks.

TRUST GORDON CAMPBELL?

Why?

Why would anyone trust Gordon Campbell?

This is the same man who ran in the 1996 election promising to sell BC Rail and lost.

He then ran in 2001 promising NOT TO SELL BC RAIL.

He then SOLD BC RAIL.

He has torn up contracts and failed to fulfill solemn undertakings with Health Workers, teachers and the Crown Counsel Association.

To mention just a few of his stinking lies and egregious failures to keep his word.

Why would anyone, anywhere, believe anything the man says?

But Campbell is not the simpleton morechatter, the people of BC are the simpletons....

THE B.C. LIBERAL'S “GALOMAR GAMBIT”

Watching the play of events in the B.C. Political arena is very much like watching a chess game. The ultimate goal in a chess game is put ones “own” pieces into positions of power, and defeat the opposition. This is a fine goal in the game of chess, but to use, and sacrifice the pawns, for power and position is not what we (the pawns) elected our politicians to do. Unfortunately, to those, playing the political game in this province, we “the voters” are to be sacrificed as deemed neccessary by the political establishment.

Distracting and misdirecting the opponent is key to the “win” in a chess game. You cause your opponent to think you are doing one thing, while in reality you do another. This is called a “gambit”.

As I see it, the Liberal's are taking the best advice they could, and using the "pawns" rebellion, (fight hst campaign), to their own advantage. Lets call what they are doing the “galomar gambit”.

Why go to referendum? There are three direct advantages in this gambit. The first, liberal mla's will not have to stand publicly, in the legislature, and vote against the "known" wishes of their constituency. The second is to have enough time to distract, and misdirect the opponents, (voters) by having time to introduce “seemingly” more important but distracting issues. The third, but far from the least, is to offer the “power” pieces in this game "time" to insure that the profits promised, will indeed be profits gained.

Galomar is an acronym for “grab a lot of money and run” and the “gambit” is a proven move easily played on the "unaware" opponent.

Now with a one year delay Mr.Campbell's corporate friends have been granted a two billion dollar gift, a gift that will generate a lot of contributions to the "fight the recall's campaign" the campaign that the liberals must launch, if they want to survive as a major political party in this province.

Did you know that the HST is good for backaches and bunions? I think it was a Liberal that told me that.

This is no longer about the HST

And actually never was. This is about a government that has lied and bullied and deceived.

The HST may or may not be a tax that is good for British Columbians. But right now, I can't believe anything the government and their corporate friends tell us.

Interest ing...

"As David Schreck writes: "Supporters of the HST might also worry about a quarter of the population who receive up to $230 per person per year in assistance to offset the impact of the HST. Of course, if the HST is eliminated, there would be no need to provide assistance to offset its impact. Low income families need to understand that only the provincial portion of thir cheques would be eliminated as the system returned to the former GST rebate system, which provides up to $250 for eligible adults and $131 for eligible children."

Yesterday Carole James said that rebates will be due the citizens of BC if the HST is canceled. Those $230 assistance cheques will have to be paid back too and naturally, with interest.

So remind all your friends that are receiving the rebates that they should save the rebates because they may well be claimed back through tax returns or other methods if the referendum is a success.

Good Balanced Article

The Zalm's HST Extinguishment Act requires the repayment of all HST funds to BC'ers on a per capita basis.

As David Schreck correctly points out:

OTOH, we have Carole James today adamantly stating the HST should be refunded if the referendum passes. Ummm... where's the $7 billion gonna come from?

And today the Zalm is claiming that the NDP "dropped the ball" in the Fight HST campaign and that their move to unanimously vote for the province-wide referendum was "dumb".

That's what ya get when ya play political footsie with the Zalm.

Is it any wonder that the NDP remains mired at 42% in yesterday's Mustel poll, the same vote that they received in the May, 2009 election, when the Libs can't even shoot straight?

Well Rmouse......

Those rebate figures you quote are bullshit....

75% of rebate receivers.......

Receives half that amount or less....A mere 25% receive the full benfit...

The rebate is combined with the carbon tax rebate and the GST rebate....

It is not a "Stand alone rebate"

So if low income person......

Gets a cheque for $220 dollars or $180 dollars......

Those people don`t know why their getting a cheque, before or after the HST....

They will not, the receivers of rebates will not rally for saving the HST.....

But as for Luke and Rman......Welcome to the NDP run Government...

And get ready for ..."Recall in the Fall"

It doesn't Matter What ANY Of Them Say

I have observed in my 60+ years that what politicians of ANY stripe say, and whet they do is not always the same thing.
It used to be ILLEGAL to have a deficit budget ... remember??
I will not open up debate with all the NDP supporters, but they are no better.
In fact, I think we are truly in need of a King as all these elected fellows, and gals, seem quite useless.

SIMPLE SOLUTIONS ARE BEST

Lets say we do turf the HST and lets also say we must pay back all of the bribes from the Feds and all of the payments to the poor of the province. According to my math we would only have to reclaim the taxes that Campbell's corporate friends have been given by the HST and "voila" a debt created and a debt paid.

The hardship encountered by Campbell's corporate welfare bums should be no worse for our society than trying to wrest repayment from the poor of the province.

Agree rantnic

Those who benefited from Campbell's tax shift to average or middle class folk should have their tax cuts repealed. Of course they will whine like they always do but it would only be fair. Now if we could just get those wimpy NDP members and their "leader" to take a position on something we might have a future.

Anybody enlighten me here?

In 2001, the Liberals passed legislation to provide "A certificate of exemption for production machinery and equipment". Document here: http://www.sbr.gov.bc.ca/documents_library/forms/0453MFILL.pdf
In other words, an exemption from paying PST for Mining, Forestry, and Local Governments.
Mining and Forestry have been exempted from the GST for production machinery and equipment since the GST's inception.
Why is the LIberal government saying Mining and Forestry won't have to pay these taxes when they already weren't?
How will no change in that part of the tax regime vis a vis Forestry and Mining create new jobs?

Or have we been hoodwinked on that aspect of it, too?

offended

The HST input tax credits apply to all business expenses, for all registered businesses including your local shop, café or tradesperson, not just large ones. "production machinery and equipment" fall under a different category specifically related to manufacturing.

r'man

if people paid HST for a year why would they have to give back their refunds for that year?

Or is every business that charged them HST going to give back to each individual what they're owed.

Of course, it might be that you didn't understand the issue.

Luke

What did the Liberals poll at? Oh, it was 33%. That seems pretty low to me.

Of course Angus Reid has the Liberals at just 25% and the NDP at 48%.

Weren't you the guy that claimed over and over that Dianne Watts would be the premier by now?

Mustel polls

Luke calls Mustel the "Gold Standard" of polling in BC.

yet last election they finished in 4th place out of 5 pollsters. Angus Reid was closest to the election result. Ipsos-Reid was second. Innovative Research was third, Mustel was fourth and Environics was last.

Not only is Mustel not "gold", it doesn't even get a bronze.

NDP and HST

Carol James and David Schreck say: let's negotiate our way out of the HST, but not until 2015 so that BC can keep the $1.6 billion bribe given by Ottawa to join up. Good plan! What kind of idiots do they think they would negotiate with in Ottawa? Idiots who would say: sure, you can get out of the HST, AND keep the $1.6 billion bribe? The Feds may not be rocket scientists, but they won't allow a billion and a half in Canadian taxpayer dollars to be pocketed by a province reneging on their part of the deal. Gimme a break.

Reg Whitaker

Are you saying the agreement never ends? That if BC wants out of the deal 500 years from now they still have to pay back the $1.6 billion?

One assumes the deal has an end date after which BC can abandon the HST with no penalty.

Besides, where's the $1.6 billion Campbell claims he received? Last time I checked we have a huge deficit in spite of that little windfall.

Bet it would be nice if he hadn't spent billions on a convention centre and the Canada Line, and the new sea to sky highway and the Olympics eh?

I see it now

Look how divisive the referendum has become already. And we haven't even got the wording.

I said it above and I will say it again. This is not about the HST. This is about honest, open government which the Liberals have proven incapable of being.

I don't care about the pros and cons of the HST and what will happen to rebates and the 1.6B. I am 59 years old and seen many political parties make major policy decisions that resulted in their failure at the polls. Joe Clark for one. But at least he was honest about what he was planning to do and took the fall because of it.

This government is on a whole different level. My stomach literally turns when I think about what they have done and can do if they get away with this.

Frank

Perhaps you just don't understand how refunds and costs work. Yesterday, Carole James:

"VICTORIA — British Columbians should receive a tax refund if a referendum next year goes against the harmonized sales tax, New Democratic Party leader Carole James said Wednesday.

“If [the anti-HST initiative] passes, I think the government has an obligation to respect the will of the people in signing that initiative, which is that there will be some kind of refund,” James said in an interview.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/news/should+refunded+referendum+passes+Carole+James+says/3530926/story.html#ixzz0zjT7n8MH

Is your NDP really ready to refund to taxpayers "some kind" of cash and at the same time allow those over 1 million recipients of the allowances, to keep the cash? Is that what you're suggesting to Carole? And, you're gonna pay back the $1.6 billion to the feds!

How big is your deficit going to be Frank?

r'man

I guess you;'re not aware that Carole James isn't the premier? And that they won't be next year either?

Besides if people paid the HST for a year and got their little refund why would they pay it back? They already paid the HST for a year.

The deficit will be just as large as Campbell wants it to be remember? Unless you believe he knew the cash was coming from the Feds before the election in spite of what he told us?

The Future

One thing we can be sure of that any uptick in the economy is because of the HST and any drop in the economy is due to the uncertainty caused by the upcoming vote on the HST. I do believe Campbell will be true to his word, but I think the coming media manipulations are going to be legendary.

No win

First of all, congratulations to all of those who voted this cretin into Government in the first place. You are now getting an education on post-neo-conservatism. We hope you are able to retain this new knowledge.

And, if the HST is rolled back, who here naively thinks that the PST won't simply and immediately be expanded to encompass those same goods and services that were added to the taxable list by the HST anyway?

We will take exactly the same tax hit under the new, expanded PST as under the "dreaded" HST.

Rearrange the deck chairs any way you like.

Oh please! Not Dianne Watts.

Oh please! Not Dianne Watts. She is right up there with her corporate buddies. We thought getting rid of McCallum would change things, but it hasn't. Dianne is selling it off as well to the developers, and big business. Taking land out of the ALR for huge developments. She is also a good friend of Kevie Falcon's, and the likes of the lieberal party. So please, no Watts for premier. .

No kidding.

It would just be more of the same with Dianne. I think they're priming Falcon to take over for Campbell (nooooooooooo!). Too many puff pieces in the media about health care and next to nothing about waiting lists getting longer for things like MRI's and surgeries.

BTW HST on private surgeries

Yes, it's true. If you're in so much pain you can't wait for your knee surgery (that would be me) and decide to pay for it yourself, you pay HST on the surgery.

I'm not paying. I'll wait. Thanks for nothing, Falcon, and thanks for not bothering to answer my emails about waiting lists.

hst refund

All of you wining and wringing your hands about the payback of the HST are pissing into the wind.
1.6 billion is chump change in comparison to what Gordo and his thugs have stolen from the people of BC.
The money is going to stay were it went and the Feds and the Province will have to suck it up, after all they were the ones, Gordo and Stevie the weird, who tried to pull the sheep over the voters eyes.

Right on cghzd!

Much of the debate about details is just over complicating a simple issue. If the government needs more money let them claw back all those tax breaks they gave to their business friends since the first day they took office. Even the HST is a tax shift to consumers from business. It's simple and if Carole James and her wimpy assed caucus doesn't get it yet, they better soon.

ACCOUNTABILITY AND THE LACK THEROF

Unfotunetly our present crop of politicians are all working under a system that breeds corruption, dishonesty and a great lack of accountability. To make any significant change we must change the present political system that we now, all know, is failing us.

The present group of Neo-liberals and Neo-ndps (socilists) are so entrenched in the system, that only by changing the system, can we eradicate problems they perpetuate in their own political interests.

I advocate "direct democracy" over this "representative democracy" sham, wherein our "representatives" support their party rather than the citizens that voted them into office.

Power to the party, or power to the people, that is the question. The other question is, "why did the communists (socialists) call them "capitalist pigs"? Methinks it is because their "greed" knows no bounds.

From $7 billion to Zero on the HST

Yesterday I wrote that repayment of all monies collected from day one of the HST would leave a $7 billion hole in provincial finances. That is true, but that is not what Vander Zalm's "HST Extinguishment Act" requires. It calls for the refund on an equal per capita basis of HST revenues that are in excess of original PST revenues.

It is open to argument how to correctly interpret the refund provision in Vander Zalm's bill, but remember that the government estimated that after rebates the HST will raise less money in its first year than the PST did. It will be a year or more before anyone has accurate figures, but if that is true there would be no money to refund. That would make Carole Jame's support for the refund provision very affordable.

in camera obscura

Another comprehensive argument by Schreck. This follows on his earlier excellent one taking apart the supposed benefits of this useless tax shift.

http://fighthst.com/campbells-hst-illusion-by-david-d-schreck/

Mintz has never looked such a buffoon as he has in the last year.

But to the eternal glee of Dead Hand Luke and his ilk (Hmmmm.... why does that rhyme with "bilk"?), Campbell is cagey enough to divert attention from the issue to a red herring. The likes of Dead Hand always ask, should the government forgo tax money, where would it get the money to replace it?

Same place they got $ 6 billion for the Olympics and $3 billion for the Port Mann - borrow it in the marketplace. Isn't that why Falcon said "government can borrow money cheaper than anyone else"?

Once again, Campbell and Hansen are far behind the economic curve - while everyone else is trying to tax and spend their way out of a recession, the Fiberals are whistling their way into the dark and pretending that tax cuts and spending reductions are the only way out of this mess. Too bad they're not economists, nor even economic commentators like Schreck.

But for me, it's Schreck's 2nd question about the HST referendum where the Fiberals can make this go off the rails. There's so much possibility for obfuscation there, what with a compliant lot of FI lackwits at the editorial board of the Sun and Province to spin it.

There's no way for Dead Hand and his (b)ilk to honestly argue the merits of any replacement of a retail sales tax (RST) with all its attendant social policy objectives, against a broad-based VAT, so they'll be reduced to bumph and sales talk.

Bring it on, boys!! The trash can's awaiting!

But first, enough about the "benefits"

The benefits can't be found. Not in any jurisdiction that honestly examines the results of its tax shift.

Yet Hansen claims that reducing taxation on business will lead to “more jobs”, a gross oversimplification of economic theory. In truth, reduced taxation leads to both increased returns to shareholders, and to increased investment in capital, from which it is possible, that more jobs may be created - emphasis on may. However, as capital investment is intended to replace labour, business investment in capital inevitably leads to job losses, thus encouraging labour to seek employment higher up the employment ladder. This basic tenet of economics seems to have been forgotten by all an sundry in the rush to defend the new tax on any grounds, including the specious.

That the poorly-employed may not be fit for any other employment seems not to enter the equation at all, and that any level of employment support, higher education, or retraining has been poorly sponsored by federal and some provincial governments (not to mention its complete abandonment by small- and medium-sized business) in recent decades seems not to have entered the heads of those who support tax harmonization. Thus, HST harmonization leads to job losses for the poor, in addition to higher taxes for the poor.

Our finance minister owes it to the people of this province not only to look at the economic costs of improving the lot of business, but also the social costs. This, Minister Hansen clearly appears to have no interest in doing. I have not discovered yet whether the finance ministry staff have done so. However, in all provinces, this RST has been used additionally as a tool of social policy, rather than one exclusively of revenue gathering, while the HST makes no such claim. It seems a shame to throw one tool out without replacing it with another. This nebulous possibility that business "will" use the money saved from compounded RSTs to "invest in creating jobs" is too ridiculous to be believed. As we recently saw in the US, most money freed up for investment in capital in the bank bailouts led to... not job gains, but takeovers of the competition, or shareholder buy-backs, and thousands more pink slips on Wall St.

The real issue

Lower taxes is not the be-all and end-all of governmental policy. Were a reduction in taxes to the lowest corporate rate in Canada a suitable motive for business to invest, you would expect BC would be booming. Instead, it is a petro-dollar state balancing on the thin edge of financial breakdown, with head offices, the film industry, manufacturing, and soon the pulp industry fleeing for other jurisdictions with higher taxes but better opportunity. What opportunity, you may ask? Ahhhh, that's what we would like to know too. But that appears to be the forbidden question, because its premise is not accepted by the government that reduced taxes. And it is this basic untrustworthiness, this unwillingness to look at any facts that do not match with the script that has so many people upset at the HST.

In actual fact, the HST is a red herring. It could have been the price of gas as it was three years ago, or the price of transit taxation as it was a couple of years ago, or the price of housing as it will be next year. The problem here is the untrustworthiness of the governing party, and in particular, its CEO.

I’m not going to call myself a Keynesian - that would give me too much credit for understanding the great man's work. But the scorn in his pithiest comment about a few droppings of oats passing through the horse to feed the sparrows rings truest for me. Those who suggest that the cold hand of capitalism best allocates resources in an impartial manner now have a higher burden of proof than before, and I would like to see Minister Hansen and his "long list of experts" begin by explaining exactly how business will invest their tax savings in producing new jobs. Specifically, not vaguely.

No need to reply, Dead Hand. Your credentials speak for themselves.

Is Cynic right?

He said: 'It all boils down to this: money is loaned into existence by private entities that keep us in a perpetual state of debt slavery.'

The question we all might be interested in is: How much of the BC budget is wasted on paying interest on debt?
I'm certainly not an expert but I sometimes wonder why more states/provinces/countries don't follow the example of N Dakota and create their own public banks to lend themselves money when they need it. And to lend money to business as well. That way all the interest charged stays home and grows the local economy.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ellen-brown/job-losses-not-in-north-d_b_341131.html

The gist of it.

'The Bank of North Dakota (BND) is set up as a dba: "the State of North Dakota doing business as the Bank of North Dakota." Technically, that makes the capital of the state the capital of the bank. Projecting the possibilities of this arrangement to California, the State of California owns about $200 billion in real estate, has $62 billion in various investments and has $128 billion in projected 2009 revenues. Leveraged by a factor of eight, that capital base could support nearly $4 trillion in loans.'

So how much money does BC have left in real estate and resources? Hundreds of billions. Support the Bank of BC and grow your own economy.

Of course you'd have to have some rules

To keep the greedy neo-cons from getting their sticky little fingers in the cookie jar. So it would have to be public but separate from the government and it would have to have a charter which; once written, could only be changed by public referendum.

Fairly Funded?

Will debate be fairly funded? I would like to rework your question Mr. Shreck: How could debate possibly be fairly funded?

I recently read that Campbell plans to spend $30 million (likely more based on his dismal record and whimsical way with numbers) to convince the people that the HST is good for us.

Hansen has been quoted as saying "I do not believe that in the current climate of British Columbia, and the public mood about the harmonized sales tax, that people would see that favourably," he said. "I think we would be criticized for trying to buy support with people's own money" when asked if a rebate or refund tactic such as McGuinty used in Ontario placate the electorate with was “on his radar.”

This is probably Hansen’s most lucid moment in some time despite his failure to recognize the duplicity of his words.

Yes. The people of BC would not take lightly to such a bribe, but hey – Hansen – don’t you think we know whose collective pockets the $30 million plus is coming from?

Don’t you, Mr. Hansen, think the people of BC are tired of the BC Liberals taking them for fools? Apparently not.

Be nice to that baby, Ma'am!

Turns out he owes $55,000 as a citizen of BC.
What? That's my baby!
Well, yes and no ma'am. You can have the bother of trying to raise him in a sane manner in an insane world for the next 16 years or so. But after that we're going to shackle one of his feet with taxes and put him to work. Pay his debt to society.
But?!! But he hasn't done anything wrong!
No, but he was born in BC wasn't he? Don't worry, we're not going to hurt him. Just arrange his education so that he can't think too clearly and then we'll pimp him out to the highest bidder so HE CAN START PAYING HIS SHARE of taxes to us mild mannered bankers.
WHACK!
OW! I don't think I like your attitude ma'am. Don't for an instant think that we can't make things even harder for you.

110 BILLION (plus our sanity) is the amount of our future the liberal lie machine has pledged to the cold blooded bankers.

http://www.straight.com/article-296582/vancouver/bc-liberal-budgets-hidden-debt-and-tax-hikes-threaten-economic-growth