Until I no longer see born

Until I no longer see born and raised Canadian children in poverty and seniors digging through garbage cans for bottles I will not accept the government spending the money they have and do on this type of "immigration". Now that we have essentially "rolled over and played dead" on the issue, you can expect more ships to be coming over the horizon any time now. When does it end?

The day may soon come when

The day may soon come when each of us has to make a choice between our own well being and compassion for the world's desperate.
That said, the Tamils are no more breaking the rules than any other refugee claimants and the federal gov't is totally out of line in whipping up this xenophobia against them.
My preference would be to see more refugees and less wealthy immigrants

marlonbrando

Have you ever stopped to consider that these people OWE the human smugglers that $50G, and that it might well take more than one generation for them to work it off - or risk all kinds of reprisals against relatives left behind?

As Stephen Hume noted, there are many mean-spirited people about. I guess we know which camp you are in.

This present Canadian government, speaking as it does out of both sides of it's mouth, on one hand says that Canada is the richest country in the world; and simultaneously says that times are tough. When it comes to buying up someone else's refuse, such as fighter planes for $16 billion, or when it comes to forking over in excess of a billion for security alone for a week long party called the G-8/20, we are blessed with infinite wealth. But when it comes to such basics as clean drinking water, especially away from the major cities, we can't afford it.

And evidently we can't afford a measly few thousands to bring in refugees - unless of course, those refugees come from evil communist regimes, and not from allies.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do!

People who pay up to $65.000 for a spot on a refugee ship are not poor!
More likely they are economic opportunists.
Canada does allow such people entry if they apply correctly, so what these "refugees" are doing is queue-jumping; even if it looks a desperate move to us.

The draft dodgers were accepted because at least they were from the US and not likely to form a new ghetto here.

Us old immigrants came here the hard way and have lived our lives trying very hard to fit in here; for us it is annoying to see newer arrivals arriving with a chip on their shoulder and immediately demand services.

As Seth says "we're all

As Seth says "we're all lighting our hair on fire" about the occasional boat shows up. Hells bells and buckets of blood, wake up people this sort of thing is an everyday experience in the southern states; boats loads are landing in Florida from either Haiti or Cuba not to mention the hoards coming in from Latin America. Go and have a look see whats happening in Europe; cardboard squats in Calais loaded with people waiting for the opportunity to get themselves into the UK. Italy, Spain, they too as other counties are being swamped with "illegals". Just pushing their boat off the beach and tell them to go somewhere else isn't going to stop them.

It's interesting

It's interesting reading the various reactions to the Tamil refugees in various media. Mostly it is against accepting them. Yet, how do we really know they paid $50k to get here? Because our Government said so? And our Government always tells the truth?

The Conservatives are using the Tamils for their own gain hoping to pump up their dwindling polling numbers and portraying them as terrorists or opportunists is their way of trying to gain the anti immigrant vote. It might very well be that they paid or more likely owe $50k to the smugglers. But it might very well not be. I would hope Canadians would have more of an open mind. Apparently not.

Refugees go home for holidays, is that correct?

OTTAWA - A secret government survey reveals the majority of successful Tamil refugees travel back to Sri Lanka, raising questions about the legitimacy of their refugee status.

To become a refugee, a claimant must prove they are in danger of torture, there is a risk to their life or meet other criteria showing they will face persecution in their home country. Yet this did not stop over 70% of successful Tamil refugee claimants surveyed from returning to Sri Lanka for vacations, business or to sponsor family members.

"I think it's been fairly common knowledge, that after asylum seekers get status they go back," said James Bissett a former head of Immigration Canada. "Certainly after they get landed immigrant status they go back."

Read more here: http://www.lfpress.com/news/canada/2010/08/21/15099011.html#/news/canada/2010/08/21/pf-15098861.html

A lots of people came to this country not as refugees and they still do not gather enough money to go back to the country of origin to visit their families but the TAMILS so called "refugees" are going back to Sri Lanka, where they are supposedly persecuted.....

to Kl

Canadians do have an open mind, as you know, all Canadians are immigrants, many scape Europe during the war and came LEGALLY to Canada, even in the forties my grandparents had to apply as refugees, not just jump in a boat a show up. Why we have to be open mind? There is a right channel to go and they should obey the law and regulations.
Why they do not go to India which is next door? Or Russia? Or even China? They want to come to a rich country, that raises a lot of questions.....

Complex issue

Seth, your piece brings up some good points. I also find the rise in temporary foreign workers distressing in these times when many Canadian citizens are out of work. I am not the least bit surprised by the way this government is handling this most recent refugee incident. Jason Kenney is showing off how we are not "soft" on immigration. He's never wasted an opportunity to grandstand in the past (George Galloway fiasco). Like you said, by definition refugees are claim-jumpers. For SOME, fleeing means survival. I believe that we need to treat this latest arrival according to the rules we already have in place, and avoid labeling the whole bunch as terrorists or criminals. That said, it is vital to our interest to identify people who pose risks, and turn them away.
However, I take exception to the assertion that Canada is not considered a safe haven with comparatively lax immigration rules. This ship passed on the opportunity to sail to Australia, New Zealand, USA, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Malaysia and Taiwan on its voyage to Canada. What does that say?

well said Seth

I am one who gained a lot from young people fleeing conscription, the draft, in the US and coming here. Many of them bright and many of them helped me get out of the colonial mindset.

During the mid 90's Canada immigration had two officers in Africa processing not only regular requests for immigration to this country but also refugee claimants. At the same time, Canada had 50 officers processing claims in Hong Kong prior to mainland China takeover.

Can one consider allocation of resources by Canada's immigration department a covert state run cue jumping operation? If you have $500,000 or $2 million how does this help your immigration application?

The term cue jumping is just a way to discriminate against poor refugees.

In the 'discussion' about the Tamil refugees very little was said about why they are fleeing and this should be investigated by our country and the UN. Is Sri Lanka conducting ethnic cleansing?

Just how did Sri Lanka put together such a show of force, fighter jets and bombers, tanks, missles etc during their offensive against the Tamils? So soon after the devastation of the 2004 tsunami where 500,000 people were displaced and 40,000 lost their lives the Sri Lankan military expanded their killing wares dramatically. Were relief and reconstruction funds diverted to the military?

charity / care begins at home

We have governments that don't take care of long time Canadains Why should we take in people who may not have come here to be good citizens
Why can't we take care of our own first. WE need jobs for those who are unemployed here.
I could see those jumping the gun to avoid normal waits pay the BC government to do the process of clearing them But they could also be placed some where safe and pay for that then go through the hoops

The hue and cry over these

The hue and cry over these "illegal immigrants" and the hoops they have to go through, is very interesting, when the government is welcoming corporations with some of the most unsavoury, miles long conviction records, in some cases amounting to hundreds of millions of dollars, in all parts of the world, with open arms, giving them immediate "national treatment", in other words a form of citizenship, permitting them to take control of the Canadian economy.

"But they bring wealth creating foreign investment !"

They bring nothing. Their purpose is to take everything and steal us blind. Their so called "investment" is often nothing more than imaginary money "created" from the air by Canadian banks for the purpose to take over Canadian businesses, and their first step usually is to fire Canadian workers.

E.g.Does anybody bother to take notice of the control , outfits like Cargill and Monsanto have over the Canadian food producing industries and their effects on Canadian supplier? Why is it that Canada used to be self sufficient in many areas, but now has become a major importer of products we can easily make and grow here. E.g. Beef. How and why we are no longer permitted?

Trudeau set the Foreign Investment Review Agency up in the 70s to examine whether these "foreign investors" are of any benefit to the country, but it was one of the first action of the so called "conservatives" to get rid of it and cry with open arms: "Come and take us! Canada for sale !"

Isn't this what NAFTA and the WTO are about ? How do these actions compare with a few refugees ?

Ed Deak.

Too much guesswork & too many suppostions

The fact is, few of actually KNOW the situations of individual Tamils on that ship - and the federal government isn't helping matters by tossing in words like "smuggling" and "terrorist". It only shows that this government is not impartial - is not a government of ALL Canadians.

And as for pwlg's question, one doesn't have to look andy further than India to see who is supporting the Sinhalese-dominated government of Sri Lanka - which BTW is pretty well at the bottom of the UN human rights abuse list.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/feb2009/insl-f21.shtml
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=33967&Cr=pillay&Cr1

But - India is our friend...........

Thanks Seth

Good article.

You're right. Many Canadians are well on the way to becoming tight-assed greedy selfish bastards.

Only one point needs to be added.

Unless you're a pure blood First Nations citizen, you are either an immigrant or a descendant of immigrants.

Some Canadians have always had a hard time with that concept...

immigrants

Well I was born here and will die here. We don't mind people coming into Canada, but do it the legal way go through the proper channels not buying passage on a ship for $50,000 and then expect us too pay for your medical, our welfare system, your housing and the list goes on. It is going to cost us the taxpayers $49 Million for the 492 people on that boat and I am sick and tired of paying more and more taxes too help someone who payed $50,000 for them too come here and sit on welfare and expect us too pay there way.

well done Seth

Great article. I can't believe the attitude of Canadians over this. The stupidity and ignorance is overwhelming. Of course, these are the same people who allowed their country to go from one of the great nations of the world 30 years ago to the 1st world banana republic it is today. In fact it's debatable if it still is a country. More like the world's largest flea market! Kudos to:frances, kl, pwlg, G West, and of course, Ed Deak (again).

First Impressions Don’t Count

When the boat hit our shores I yelled Hurrah! along with a lot of you because here were these poor innocent refugees being saved from the perils of hell back home, and as a Canadian I was proud to help someone in need.

Time passed, the Tiger hysteria died down and facts started to come out that I wasn’t aware of when they first arrived. Now I’m reserving judgment until each individual case is heard and I’m cynical about the results that are going to crawl out of the woodwork.

This is not an accidental arrival by a group who heard Canada was a good place. This is a bunch we mostly don’t need. They are not people I want for neighbours. What they collectively did was intentionally plan a deliberate attack on our Immigration System and try to take advantage of a known weakness. They are intentional line jumpers who are claiming to be refugees under threat of torture and persecution if they return home. I now have my doubts about that claim.

They are not poor if they somehow paid even a portion of the $50K that some bandits charged to arrange the little adventure. They were sold on Canada and paid for first class passage in a manner designed to elicit sympathy when they arrived. It took months of planning to orchestrate and put together. I find out later that of the approx 400 Tamil refugee claims that were accepted last year, the danger back home was so terrifying to contemplate 50 of them they kept taking holidays and visits for weddings and funerals and there have been no reports of returnees being arrested on return to Sri Lanka.

Maybe I’m too sensitive but there is a very strong odor beginning to ripen about this. I hope it doesn’t take as long as Air India has.

ODB

I should be offended over this statement - unfortunately it is true. And I might add that it goes back another 20 years, when the Arrow project was summarily cancelled, and we began our "one step forward, two steps back" technologically - until we have arrived where we began, the consummate "hewers of wood, and drawers of water".

Bad taste

So, Seth, do you suppose that by putting your own charming self into the mix, that we will all become shamefaced and contrite and say, oh, when HIS parents were in that category, we're certainly having to re-think this and that attitude!

I don't think so. Up till the time of the draft, your parents had enjoyed the benefits of being American and, one supposes, happily so, or they would have left before. The moment it became a little too demanding, potentially uncomfortable, they split. You think Canada wants/needs people with that spoilt-brat attitude for its citizens? Sorry, your treatise don't cut no ice with me. I come from a country where draft has been in the constitution since the mid-1800's and still is. I didn't leave for that reason, nor would I ever have.

Very commendable that you take it up for the world's miserable masses. But most misery comes out of not hitting the brakes on procreation soon enough. Flooding have devastating consequences, because people live where no one should and/or manage the land unwisely. These problems are not being helped by us being the minuscule safety valve we can be on such a huge problem. Instead, we are supporting people in not changing their ways.

You asked, or didn't you?

Dorothy and the rest of you with blinkers on ...

In Mexico, the bodies of 58 men and 14 women were found on a ranch. They were from South and Central America, heading to the US for a better life but according to news reports were kidnapped by drug gangs to be used for hell knows what.
They are just the tip of a growing iceberg.
There's a world out there of people living in horrendous circumstances. To deny them the chance to live in a place where they won't be hungry, face with torture or worry that the water they drink will kill them is selfish at best.

Spending $49. million of

Spending $49. million of taxpayers money on the refugees is indeed a large amount of money, until we start thinking that our multinational mega corporate mafia probably takes that amount of taxpayers money out of the county every hour, while buying and ordering ideologically warped governments around to kowtow to their demands, under the criminal idiocy of "national treatment". .

As far the draftdodgers are concerned, I was a volunteer from Grade 11, at 17, to "defend and fight for my country" taken into WW2 by a foreign bootlicking government. Wounded in action on a volunteer assault patrol, etc. but became a traitor when I escaped the draft, some time later, under another government who were by then licking the boots of another foreign country.

Are the NATO troops "fighting and dying for their countries" in Afghanistan , right now ?

Lying in bed for 3 moths with a badly infected legwound and then 11 months as a volunteer orderly in a primitive hospital filled with amputees, gave me a lot of time think and decide that no goddamn politician will ever again send me to kill and be killed for some nonsensical ideology, permitting some crooks to fill their pockets with the profits of war. .

Ed Deak.

Nobody dares to mention that

Nobody dares to mention that the main cause of the Mexican drug wars is the NAFTA that destroyed their economy, putting tens of millions out of business and off their subsistence farms, while making a few crooks criminally rich.

Ed Deak.

Use your head

"To deny them the chance to live in a place where they won't be hungry, face with torture or worry that the water they drink will kill them is selfish at best."

I'm not denying them anything. The Roman Catholic Church did and does that by still railing against contraception till this day as it has always done. How peaceful and prosperous do you suppose this country will be, if we invite in everyone in dire straits? Then you could truly say that not only was there nowhere to go, but there would be not even the model for something better to be seen anywhere.
Every country on Earth could remodel itself into something far better, but it starts with tackling the problem of overpopulation. We sometimes condemn China for the harshness of its measures, but she deserves our respect for showing repsonsibility even when it hurts. Instead of getting all hot and bothered about what an unspeakble scoundrel I am, do the math.

Hmmm

So, I guess refugees are fine as long as they're sterile, is that it dorothy?

My reading of the data is that when people aren't desperately poor they don't have huge families.

I quick look at birth statistics from any traditionally Catholic region will support this observation...

This isn't a question of math, it's a matter of preferring hospitality to hypocrisy...in my view.

As for the reasons behind Seth’s parents choice of Canada when they disagreed with their own government about the Vietnam war…I think it’s fairly petty to call them on that…there are lots of ways to express one’s opinions – choosing with one’s feet has always been a perfectly honourable way to do that…historically, it has been the inspiration for a lot of new countries and new ideas. This is especially true in a country of immigrants like Canada.

Closing any nation off to the changes to be brought to a culture by immigration and refugee arrivals is now, and always will be, a very bad idea.

It’s easy to judge – especially for someone a smug as Canadians these days….

Let’s let the Tamils in…and treat them like human beings.

It's Business

The war in Sri Lanka ended in 2009. India and Sri Lanka are now normalising relations which were strained when Sri Lanka went to Pakistan and China for weaponry.

http://www.indianmuslims.info/news/2007/jun/02/sri_lanka_turns_pakistan_china_military_needs.html

August 26, 2010
"With the end of ethnic conflict, India and Sri Lanka will revert to a more normal defence relationship. Defence Secretary Pradeep Kumar will visit Colombo soon to get an idea of the issues to be taken up at the first annual defence dialogue between the two countries. ..."

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article596379.ece

Sri Lanka has been occupied and colonised for thousands of years. First by the Tamils and also in areas by the Netherlands, Portugal and Britain which gave the island nation independence after peaceful negotiations in 1948. Sri Lanka had the first woman Prime Minister in the modern world with Mrs. Bandaranaike. Sri Lanka is primarily buddhists, with about 70% of the population following this religion.

The trouble is, some Tamils came to Canada as persecuted refugees, after living for a couple of years in Europe. What was that all about? Persecuted in Europe? In Germany? This is one problem with Canada's refugee rules, where someone can claim status even if they just come from a friendly country. No other country allows this. We are rightly very generous and afford arrivals with all benefits immediately but what is legit?

World Human Smuggling Black Market Value: $20 Billion.

http://www.havocscope.com/black-market-prices/human-smuggling-fees/

This has now become one of the biggest illicit businesses in the world and doesn't carry the stigma or the sanctions that other criminal activities do. It's just business. The government is perfectly right to question whether these arrivals are legit or not.

Draft Dodgers from the US were allowed into Canada because Canada did not support the then ongoing Vietnam War. Conscription ended in the US in 1973.

First Nations People Are Also Immigrants

G West neglected to mention that the ancestors of today's so-called First Nations people were immigrants, no less than those Canadians whose ancestors came from Europe, Asia, Africa or the Americas. Human civilization did not originate on the west coast of today's North America.

Lets roll it back a little further shall we, Advocate7

Once upon a time the earth was simply one big continent called Pangaea. The point, which should have been obvious, is that the same Canadians who look down upon refugees and immigrants (unless, of course, we're talking about really wealthy folks who can always buy their way in) are themselves immigrants or the stock of immigrants.

As for First Nations people, I think their pedigree here in North America is more or less unassailable. If you don't agree, I'd suggest you do a little more research into what has happened to them in the Post-Colombian era...If anyone has a right to protest immigration and its effects, I'd say it would be First Nations citizens.

As Chief Bill Wilson put it During a 1990 lecture to a group of lawyers, '..it was a "stupid mistake" for aboriginals to welcome European colonizers.
"We should have killed you all," he said, describing the mostly poor, mostly white colonizers as ''homely, diseased, smelly people in boats.''

As for the rest of us - you'll have gathered I think we should suck it up.

G West

"..refugees are fine as long as they're sterile, is that it dorothy?"

There is a lack of logic in the question. What I am proposing is that if people inflicted a bit of voluntary 'sterility' on themselves as in accepting boundaries, maybe there wouldn't be so many refugees.

"..when people aren't desperately poor they don't have huge families."

Or, is it the other way around? I am not saying that once the carousel is going, there is no self-reinforcing thing going on, but how/why do people end up 'desperately poor' in the first place? Surely it is at least partly because of the choices made by their community in the collective sense, and also sometimes by them individually...

"As for the reasons behind Seth’s parents choice ...I think it’s fairly petty to call them on that.."

Sure, and I think it's petty to put yourself into the discussion like Seth does. The strategy is aimed at embarassing people into not disagreeing with him, because now it's become personal. It's just like the harebrained exception there is for entering an intersection on yellow, 'if you cannot stop safely', when we all know that countless drivers render it unsafe to stop by stepping on it nearing the intersection. Or, how about Brian Mulroney crabbing about the damage to his reputation, when the biggest spread of the information came from people who acted on his behalf? It's a form of bullying, and I am calling the author on it.

I agree with you that FNP have the right to get peeved at our inviting in everyone and anyone, particualrly just coming back from licking the floor to make amends for the brutal ways of our ancestors when they settled here. But I don't see how we can 'suck it up' and not in the process making that same demand of them, as we are in the same boat now, for good or ill.

As for the Tamil refugees, I hear they came from Thailand and passed by Australia, begging entry there without success. Are we now going to ostracize those two countries as inhospitable or, oh, yeah, hypocritical, or how does the same morals not apply to them as you use as a basis for name-calling on other Canadians?

immigration - refugees

MB seems to have some misplaced emotions regarding refugees. He carries the banner of old thought that refugees are criminals because they did what they had to do to escape their situations.

The situation in Sri Lanka regarding treatment of the Tamils since the government defeat of the LLTE or "Tamil Tigers" has been well reported in the last year. The human rights situation is well documented by the US State Department. If MB cares to take the time to inform him or herself of this...

http://transcurrents.com/tc/2010/03/full_report_sri_lanka_human_ri.html

When my grandparents came to this land they were offered free land they were not closeted in a room with CSIS agents trying to fish for information with threats bribes and other unsavory techniques. I suggest MB read a statement by Toronto Catholic nun, Mary Jo Leddy, regarding the treatment of Kurds who came to Canada as refugees claimants. I would imagine that nothing has changed. I hope that the Tamils that have arrived have good advocates with them to document any further human rights abuses by our government agencies.

http://www.cpj.ca/files/docs/mjlstate.pdf

Talk About

people going off half-cocked! This secretive government may never tell us the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but eventually the truth will out.

When that time comes we will know if the Tamils are refugees or not. We will know if they had to pay to be "smuggled" into Canada (in the clear view of the whole world and with more than three months notice). We will know if their fears of re-joining their compatriots in distress and death can be assuaged by having Canadian connections on return visits to family affairs. We will know if their arrival and citizenship here will enable them to be employed here, or if the money spent on their "rescue" will be wasted (how do you compute that "cost" anyway - aren't the police, medical staff, et al, on staff already?). And why do you think any government would divert those funds to needy Canadians as a more worthwhile project?

Seth, in writing this story, would know his motives would be challenged by some, like Dorothy, and provided his parallel story to counter the suggestion that he does not know what he is talking about.

With attitudes like this it's no wonder that less than a third of the electorate could put a totalitarian government into power.

G West

quote:
"As Chief Bill Wilson put it During a 1990 lecture to a group of lawyers, '..it was a "stupid mistake" for aboriginals to welcome European colonizers.
"We should have killed you all," he said, describing the mostly poor, mostly white colonizers as ''homely, diseased, smelly people in boats.''"

That's quite a quote. Did you throw that in surmising that his opinion endures to this day? Or for some other reason? Killing the Tamils would be most unfriendly. It would also go against your previous sentiment imploring us to follow the lead of the Conservative government in letting them in and treating them like human beings.

As Advocate7 points out, the migration of humans from our origins in Africa have been clearly and precisely charted through DNA. Various branches went different directions after traveling north into central Asia. Some went west to Europe some East. The Indians of Northern Canada, Arizona and South America have clear DNA links today, back to the peoples of Northern Mongolia, central Asia and etc. Any suggestion otherwise is telling fairy tales. The religious fantasies that existed at the time of residential schools preached fairy tales and this is being continued now with some descendants of colonials telling stories about some god plonking an Adam and an Eve in Canada before the white man cameth. This is abstract theoretical dogma and fantasy over science. It's a myth. Darwin would not be amused. We are all linked - to Africa.

@ realisticman

We live in the world of today...I think refugees who arrive here with next to nothing and immigrants who arrive in and Airbus with bags full of cash are quite different creatures. One group I welcome – the other, frankly, I’d sooner stayed home.

But I have a special place in my bad books for immigrants who, once they find themselves here in Canada, seem positively churlish about the efforts of others (often members of different social and ethnic groups than themselves) to improve their miserable lot by joining us here in Canada. Vic Toews would be a good example of this kind of character.

Unless, of course, you happen to be Stephen Harper or Paul Martin - their definition of suitable economic refugee would likely mean someone with 250G of liquid capital. As for the suggestion that the Tamils on that boat are being treated with respect - surely you jest!
I believe in giving some people a leg up - I don't think anyone should buy his or her way into this country ever. But we keep doing it - permitting any corrupt millionaire from whatever God forsaken corner of the globe to buy his way into this society while denying access to people who really NEED a second chance.

I take it you've seen the adverts in The Economist?

Perhaps you didn't read my other short remarks above here - I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest you don't know much about Pre-Colombian culture and what Europeans like us did to the 'new world' in the five plus centuries since 1492.
My point to Advocate7 was pretty clear - I think what he said was irrelevant - something your post and his seem to share. No Canadian – worth his salt – should ever look down upon someone coming here who is looking for a better life because of the misery they experienced in their home country.

We are a nation of immigrants – many of us were also refugees of one kind or another – like Seth, I’m proud of that tradition and saddened by what I see happening to the character of the country I love.

@ dorothy

We obviously disagree on this one.

I'm all for personal responsibility...but I don't think your remark about family size is relevant to this discussion.

As for choices, my reading of it has always been that folks 'respond' to positive encouragement much faster than they do to scolding.

I think, in this case, you were being a 'scold' and largely ignoring the importance of the 'accidents' of birth - which has sweet bugger all to do with 'choice'. We could, another time, discuss Frederick Charles Blair and his actions as head of the Immigration Branch of the Department of Mines and Resources in the years before the last war…Choice, community or otherwise, had very little to do with Canadian policy as regards Jewish immigration in the 1930s.

Sorry, but there it is. The odds of one being born into the western middle class, relative to the total population of the globe, are pretty small...

And, why shouldn't Seth inject himself and his 'experience' into this debate?

That's what we all do, we use our own experiences and knowledge to inform our views of the world around us.

Seth is a proud Canadian - as am I. He values the fact that this country welcomed his parents at a time when their 'home' country was engaged in a collective activity they did not wish to be a part of...I might remind you that Canada specifically rejected joining the US in its latest adventure in Iraq so the idea of sheltering current army deserters is not all that much different from the situation which obtained in Seth's parent's time.

And, furthermore, I thinks it is fair ball for Seth to make the argument he’s advancing for no other reason than that, at bottom, all politics is personal. This is, above all, a political issue…we are talking about feelings, impressions and beliefs and he’s entitled, in my view, to make the best case he can.

I’m glad you agree that there is a strong hint of hypocrisy in our attitudes toward ‘refugees’ who don’t meet ‘our’ current ‘high’ standards. We seem to have let in our share of scoundrels in the past – wouldn’t you agree?

Cheers!

They went this way

And that way. It gets confusing dosen't it all this immigration thing and I will agree there are many unemployed part-time workers hanging around waiting for the construction boom to begin again. I though Canada would want to help and it was what what the country was all about. And the immigrants are not responsible for the state children and seniors are in look to China as has much influence in BC.
Who was the spy agent talking about my intution tells me Campbell and Klein and lets not forget Emerson and Moore to ensure sell of dirtest oil in the land to China. What is in it for BC who is spending billions and taking all the risks????? China who just had another couple of spills this year one of them the worst country has ever seen. China now owns biggest share of Canada's oil reserves and BC has built Gateway for China because what is in it for BC or better yet our premier and prime minister as Enbridge pipeline also has a burst and is knew to the land? Chinese travelers can jump on a plane and BC's soft lumber well come now China says it can now build affordable homes for low income Chinese. Do you buy that?

I'll try to explain

"And, why shouldn't Seth inject himself and his 'experience' into this debate?

That's what we all do, we use our own experiences and knowledge to inform our views of the world around us."

OK, to me there is a difference between being informed by your experiences and daring people to state viewpoint that will fly in the face of your own personal 'rightness', as opposed to the rightness of your opinions. We all understand this in the negative sense. Say you and a couple of friends are discussing business practices in the general sense. You are holding forth a viewpoint and being contradicted by one of the other guys. You have quite a heated argument. Suddenly, he will turn on you and say, now you, for instance, you are doing A, B, and C, so don't come and say X! Now the discussion is suddenly not about something 'in general' any more. It is about your integrity. It's what's known as a cheap shot and an unfair way to try to win a discussion. Conversely, if you discuss family breakups, and you dare to point out that people are deluding themselves thinking the children can ever not bear a cost of them, someone in the group may suddenly adopt a brittle tone and say stuff like "I guess I'm a child abuser, then, for I'm divorced! I felt this was what Seth tried to do by referring to his own family history, and I merely expressed my dismay at this attempt at forcing the argument into another groove. Now we are not merely stating an opinion, we are daring to dump on Seth, the guru of the downtrodden, who in some circles has a larger-than-life status. I'll not begrudge him that, but I'll not be manipulated and bullied either. He is entitled to make the best case he can, but he must still respect the boundaries of discussing of an equal footing.

I do not agree that all politics is personal. I understand you are saying that in order to try to be conciliatory. But some things cannot be made to go away that easily. Sigrid Unset has a quote that runs something like 'why should I wish this man as a husband for my daughter, merely because we all need God's forgiveness?' That pretty well sums up my feelings on this. Thanks for your reply, though. I appreciate it greatly. May it add to your your hamingja.

$50,000 Figure is Doubtful

According to the UN, the per capita GDP in Sri Lanka is $3,250. In Canada, the figure is $29,400, or just over 9 times higher. Therefore, in order to make an equivalent payment to the reported figure of $50,000, a Canadian family would have to come up with more than $450,000 USD. Given that the median net worth of Canadian families is $148,350, that means that an average Canadian family would have to sell everything they owned to send 1/3 of one person (say an arm and a leg?) on a comparable voyage.

What could cause a Candadian family of three to buck up $1.4 million cash to hop on a rusty boat run by criminals bound for destinations unknown? You'd think that someone with those means would be pretty happy to stay put.

If they indeed did have that kind of money, I suspect that some kind of physical threat would be necessary to take that kind of risk. If they didn't, they are part of the global trade in humans, and are in the process of being exploited in ways that few Canadians can imagine.

Either way, the characterization of these people as economic migrants is highly implausible and likely designed to influence public opinion in such a way as to make their deportation easier for the government.

Xenophobia

Excellent article, Mr. Klein. Thank you for sharing your personal story and insightful comments on the current situation. Your warning about climate change refugees is especially worrisome.

As to your question: "Why can't these better receptions be the norm, rather than the xenophobia that characterizes more recent arrivals?"

As an economist, you know part of the answer to this. Historically, when the economy goes down, xenophobia goes up. In the 60's and 70's times were comparatively good in the Canadian economy, hence the warm welcome of draft dodgers and the boat people, among many other refugees.

We are now stagnating in one of the worst economic times in Canadian history, so not the best time for Tamils to flee to Canada. Economic law almost dictates that they are going to fan the fires of recession-scapegoat-xenophobia.

I'm sure Tyee commenter fiat lux has some of his own personal experience about how bad economies in 1930's Europe gave rise to Hitler and Mussolini, and the ultimate variety of xenophobia: fascism.

Reading through other comments Dorothy's stand out as particularly perplexing. Dorothy, you are a riddle, a tautology and a sophist all wrapped up into one little angry ball of frustration.

@dorothy

I think he's in the 'correct' groove...He has, in my view, every right to use his 'personal' story of how a particular (and I think ethical) political stand by Canadians in the past led to a happy result for his family. I think he's proud of that Canadian heritage and I'd think burying it, or denying it, would be a mistake.

He's got a point to make - and he should use all the ammo he's got to make his case....clearly his interlocutors aren't holding back, are they?

I think almost all immigrant stories can be positive ones and I believe the country grows stronger from the addition of all kinds of folks with all kinds of diverse beliefs...obviously, not everyone agrees.

Once upon a time the Irish, the Poles and the Galician immigrants to this country - not to mention the Sikhs and the Jews who didn't make it - were the objects of public scorn, derision and, frankly, hate. Today it's the Tamils.

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"

Just a thought.

We, a relatively small population, live in a small part of the world that uses up most of the world's resources. We don't just use the resources within or borders; we suck up the world's riches leaving the populations in developing countries in poverty. We exploit their resources including their labor so WE can maintain our privileged lifestyle. Then we wonder why they are desperate to come here. We get all twisted up because some sell everything, do anything, go into debt, do whatever unimaginable things, to get here in the hope that they will be allowed to stay. That is a surprise? The only thing that is a surprise is that boats and loads totaling in the millions don't try it. What could we possibly do then?

All this convenient isolationism because an ocean separates us is not intelligent thinking? The ocean is an obstacle very easily overcome if you think about it. Would we shoot them to prevent them landing on our shores?

reception for refugees

The fact of the matter is we live in different times
and our society does not want to share with the world
anymore. Maybe that is because we had a good standard
of living until our governments and business leaders
decided to ship our jobs offshore and reduce our
living standards. Now the refugees are coming here
and Canadians resent it. I am a person on the political left, but I am getting sick of this.
We take in people from all over the world that is not
a problem if it follows the laws of immigration
but that is not what is being enforced.

pabbott

They owe the money, same as many Latinos taking the "coyote route" into the US owe their "benefactors" many thousands of dollars.

RickW

Thanks for the reply. I know that the Tamils owe the money. I guess the point I was trying to make is that the portrayal of them as scammers out to take advantage of us Canadian suckers is misleading. These are desperate people who are unlikely to be looking forward to any good times any time soon, regardless of what the authorities decide to do with them.

I come from a family who

I come from a family who sponsered Czech, Vietnamese and Ugandan families during the times of crisis in those countries. We are also immmigrants who came here, legitimately, in the early '50's. I have always been proud of my parents for setting an example for us. It was an incredible learning experience for me as a child to learn of the atrocities these people endured. It shaped my views of the world and my country. I have always been thankful to live in a country that helped by reaching out and helping people who experienced things no ordinary Canadian ever would. I made life long friends with these people and know my life would be less rich if I had not met them.

The fact that we have elected a government that is rapidly destroying this country financially and socially should not deter us from helping those less fortunate. If the immigration department is doing its job, then those who are not true refugees should be sent home. We have a problem though, because we are never sure the 'authorities' are doing their jobs or just cruising along till the big pension kicks in. We suspect everyone and every action. I am so tired of the frickin' complications that every aspect of life today brings. When people say the world has not changed they couldn't be more wrong. It is a bloody nightmare wherever you go and the hostility of man against man, nation against nation, leaves me stunned. It really is the end of times and I think I am thankful.

Propaganda

I think the most disturbing turn in this is the aggressive and derogatory Conservative Propaganda Campaign that has accompanied this Non-Event Event,

The fact that CBC framed the whole story in the Conservative Language of Criminality, Violation and Fear.

CBC Comments Pages and other internet information sites were flooded with Hateful, fearful, xenophobic nonsense. Looks like they've hit here to. The consistancy of their language, the aggressivneess of the attitude, the tenor and the cadence of their writing would give them away if not for the intractible and hateful nonsense they are churning out ad nauseum. Not to mention misinformation, rumour and manipulation.

Like this Idea of $50,000 payments made by Tamils. I watched it as it popped up out of nowhere on CBC in the Comments and then suddenly it was everywhere being screamed all over the sites. Not reliable enough to make it onto an actual TV broadcast, they are machinegunning the internet with lies whose repition makes them True. And with CBC seemingly needing only 2 or so tweets to act as FactCheek, how long before even these types of "Rumours" turn into Reported Facts?

The other excuses seem to get bandied around a lot to. Some I've noticed are "Take care of our own first," an example of which can be found on this very site. Also the lazy, vague family story defense, you know, The "My family did it the right way" thing.

Reading through many comments many people have shared very real and genuine family stories, but those you can tell are true by the richness of the detail and emotion while ConBots seem to think merely mentioning the idea of a Family gives their position weight.

marlon brando in the comments for this article has actually done a really nice job of compacting many of them into one post, (though evidently had to squeeze in other talking points under other aliases)

While all the posts that carry this planted data may not be fake, people repeat the Gov't line even from just being saturated with it, let alone those that are brainwashed followers or mercenary ConBots.

These things make me worry,
What is Happening in Canada?

ToDDsLauGhter

Good point. I found the $50,000 figure just too convenient as well as Minister Toew's frequent referral to terrorists.

Finding our own ground

A post full of insight, aalborg.

And through these words of yours......:

"We suspect everyone and every action. I am so tired of the frickin' complications that every aspect of life today brings. When people say the world has not changed they couldn't be more wrong. It is a bloody nightmare wherever you go and the hostility of man against man, nation against nation, leaves me stunned. It really is the end of times and I think I am thankful."

....you express so well the disorienting sense of betrayal that permeates these times. Who to trust? Who to believe?

ToDDsLauGter writes:

"While all the posts that carry this planted data may not be fake, people repeat the Gov't line even from just being saturated with it, let alone those that are brainwashed followers or mercenary ConBots.

These things make me worry,
What is Happening in Canada?"

In Canada.....indeed, everywhere, with our lives fully saturated with a pathological worldview that is commercially promoted and sold from almost every direction we have now internalized the System within ourselves. We have normalized these deeply pathological...and ultimately amoral assumptions to the point that they have infected and colonized our minds.

We take on these false, misleading....and lethal-to-life assumptions all too easily now.....through our pores almost, without thinking....

At base, colonization has always been about mind control, belief systems - the colonizer's control over what you believe about yourself, what you believe about your country...and the world...so that what we are witnessing is the result of repeated messaging that is creating a new belief system for the corporate colonization of the world....the suicidal privatization of the natural world.

Our quisling leaders, the remorseless walking dead forged out of the insanity of The Peter Principle, these weak of character, empty of humanity wannabees - are mere perverted puppets in a highly perverted process.

We are crazy if we believe anything these weak shallow wannabees say or promote.

The brave task ahead is to question everything and decolonize our minds from those pathological assumptions and mutated belief systems of a now prevailing, and deeply sick, worldview.

To do this we must first stop framing the debate in and on "their" authoritarian terms.

What kind of world do WE want? And what will it take to get us there?

A good question can be most helpful... and sometimes revolutionary. How can we act unless we first know where we want to go?

In regards to the plight of the Tamil refugees

We have much much more to fear from our quisling leaders and the corporate refugees they have helped to land and firmly entrench on our shores - all done so effortlessly and so without question - under special laws, with special privileges, special media seal of approval. Special penthouse view.

No penitentiary holding cell for them.

Nope, no tense detention hearing for the corporate refugee.

No need to prove anything about past behavior....or crimes.

No questions asked.

Just an Open Door....

Would you like a glass of wine?...a good cigar?

A river?

Hundreds of rivers?

Cheap power? Bags of Canadian money?

How about a railway?

Access to our medical information....and to our medical system?

Water? No problem. Tap's on.

Wanna another cigar?

refugees

Let us ask ourselves why is it seniors have to wait
months for services, yet those who come to our shores and get medical attention, dental care, housing and the list goes on. We must start looking after our own citizens first. Those without documentation as citizens should be deported immediately. In my view we owe the world nothing and therefore it is time to demonstrate that those coming here without documentation will be turned over to their respective government.

A world now feeding greed before people

If the doors to Canada were completely closed to refugees and immigrants tomorrow, seniors would still have to wait months for services.

They are not waiting because of refugees living here - they are waiting because of an intentional and covert shift of focus and belief - away from a public health system and towards a system of privatization that arrogantly demands, and is fueled by the excessive cutting of vital social infrastructure funding - funding that is then stealthily "re-directed" to feed the greedy bureaucratic business structure of privatization and their needy call for bigger and bigger profits... and increasingly bigger pieces of "our" tax-payer funded pie.

We are all refugees now, in the same boat, in a shared world-wide quest to escape corporatism's despotic grip.

Of all the families we

Of all the families we sponsered, all went on to get good jobs, became successful and proud citizens of this country. The Ugandan father shoveled box cars and his wife cleaned offices until they saved enough to open a restaurant in White Court, Alberta. This father was a business owner in Uganda and had his own photography business and a jewellry store. But he wasn't too proud to shovel box cars. The wife was 5 months pregnant with twins and still cleaned offices all night. All their children went on to university and came out with good career choices and contribute to a society they love and respect. The same with the Vietnamese family. They have done more for this country than a lot of people I know.

I feel a deep rage at Harper and his gang of half wits. One only has to look at the cloned twit and feel afraid, very afraid. The same goes for Campbell. Demonic eyes and soulless, both of them.

I take every opportunity I can to speak to friends, neighbours and strangers, that we have to wake up and demand our country back. Our values, our belief systems and our social programs. It is all I can personally do at this point. I am glad to be living on a fairly isolated island where life is easier, comminity spirit lives and we take care of and respect each other.

The government has to go and take their greedy foreign corporations with them. Where, I don't know but out of Canada. We, the people, rock and can run this country/province ourselves utilizing our values and skills. F***, we have no choice. I am disgusted by those who worship at the altar of the dollar bill, and a US dollar at that. Look at the mess America is in and our demonic leader looks to that country as the cradle of civilization. God help us all.

And in Alice's restauruant too

You can, apparently get everything you want and then some, in the columns of the Tyee!

"...a riddle, a tautology and a sophist all wrapped up into one little angry ball of frustration..."

Thanks indeed for the free character analysis. The riddle I can solve right away. I am just a typical old Dane, bent on calling them as I see them. Additionally, I don't ever stay 'frustrated'. If I feel that way, I will do something about it. Hence no little ball. It must be the wholeness of integrity you are spotting and attempting to decipher. This is, however, a debate about principles. or isn't it, not a 'political arena'? And Seth isn't running for public office, is he? He already has a job telling people how they should spend their hard-earned money. Like most people in that kind of position, he dresses better than many of those to whom he speaks

But think - how was this for a quick wrap-up and snap judgment? I'm glad I wasn't a refugee coming here. You would've taken a peep through your binoculars and said 'make sure that one doesn't get off the boat!'

Can you say h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y?

I can see it now.

Machine gun turrets every 300 yards along out coast lines.

what is a real refugee?

A few members of my family had to flee from the Germans during WW2, because they had a bit of jewish blood in their bones.
However the majority of Danes managed to live reasonably unscathed, by keeping their political thoughts to themselves.
I feel certain that people who claim political refugee status here these days, may well be having problems because they unwisely spoke up and drew attention to themselves.
It is entirely possible to form resistance organizations without getting into trouble; what it takes is to look for a way to change the direction your country is going and not expecting solutions to happen very fast.
Not a nice thought perhaps, but Canada is not the place to fight your battles from.
I maintain that it is an economic motivation in most cases, and as such they can damn well wait their turn as any other immigrants.

Alive, you are raising an issue that may need to be looked at...

"...managed to live reasonably unscathed, by keeping their political thoughts to themselves."

There you are going into difficult territory. Now that you mention Denmark, I know there was anger there after quite a few Polish 'migrants', following the Solidarity fiasco, fled across the Baltic and then claimed refugee status in Denmark. Many freely admitted they had not been in trouble with the authorities, but now they would be, because they had shown their dissent by leaving. The Danes felt they had been co-opted and did not want to give shelter to these adventurers, who could as well have stuck it out in their country and worked for slow change.

So, I think you have a point. I think the motives are not always so clear-cut, and people rationalize their arrival on someone else's doorstep, when they were really only looking for a way out to better living conditions. It is, however, an abuse of the refugee concept. I also see the word now wrongfully used about people who have been uprooted by natural catastrophe, their land become un-inhabitable through environmental damage, but they would not really be in immediate physical danger by going home, just poor and miserable. This is economic misfortune, but not the kind of calamity that would make one a refugee. I think many would protest this, showing that the concept itself has become blurred and is possibly in need of re-definition.

Lynn

Your last three posts are right on. Excellent!

Vic Toews...

Comment by G West--
"But I have a special place in my bad books for immigrants who, once they find themselves here in Canada, seem positively churlish about the efforts of others (often members of different social and ethnic groups than themselves) to improve their miserable lot by joining us here in Canada. Vic Toews would be a good example of this kind of character."
The parents of Vic Toews came to Canada about the same time as mine. His parents were lucky enough to escape from a country that had no aversion of sending people out to serve in hard labour in the forestry camps of Siberia, or killing you because you were a "kuluk." Which is no different then that of a Tamil--who is discriminated against because of his skin colour or his religion. Vic's parents left everything behind--they had no money, just the clothes on their backs. They were fortunate to have the backing of an ethnic group within this country who put them up when they reached Canada. They received no money or handouts from the government. The CPR paid their way, and it frequently took years, but they paid the company back. The big difference between his parents and the Tamils is that the Canadian government at the time INVITED his parents and others like them to come to Canada because they KNEW they would make good citizens---and this has proven true for the 85 years and 3 generations that our people have been in Canada. We did not bring with us any "baggage." And we have repaid the whole world many times over for the priviledge of being allowed to come into Canada.
You sit at your computer and denigrate a person like Vic Toews. At least he is attempting to do something that he believes in, while you do nothing.

I'm not denigrating anyone...@ Okanagan Orchardist

The one doing the denigrating, if you'd take the time to check his actual statements, is Vic Toews.

No one, not you, not me, "KNOWS" who will make a 'good citizen'...Toews, and anyone else who suggests a particular group of people - Tamils, Jews, East Indians, Mennonites, Chinese, Iranians or folks with hundreds of thousands of dollars in liquid assets, are going to be better Canadians than any other group of individuals is selling snake oil.

Toews is definitely 'trying' to do something; sadly, given his background and his Mennonite 'faith', it appears to me to be something a little incongruous for someone born in Paraguay.

He opposed making sexual orientation a protected category under Canada's hate crime legislation, he has been, and is, an opponent of same sex marriage, the gun registry and he favours limits upon demonstrations outside abortion clinics. He has spoken in favour of lowering the age of criminal responsibility from 12 to 10 and has suggested that it is perfectly all right for religious organizations to discriminate against who can rent their facilities.

Now he’s busy making all kinds of unproven and discriminatory allegations about Tamil refugees.

He's also been accused of trying to interfere with judicial apppointments - quite a record I'd say.

I'm afraid you didn't 'get' the point. I'm simply pointing out what a hypocrite the man is.

And your point is....?

"No one, not you, not me, "KNOWS" who will make a 'good citizen'..."

That is right. And it is part of why I have a problem with Seth's finger being shaken in people's faces here. His headline says the Tamils 'deserve a better reception'. I am saying at this point we don't know what they deserve. We do know they came here in a well-planned and executed operation, setting out from a secure country, where they could have asked for asylum, and we know that another reputable country refused them entry. That's what we know. So they start out with a magnum-sized reasonable doubt about how genuine they are as refugees.

But I wish to find out your view on immigrants and their right - or not - to have viewpoints and fight for them. You are readily granting Seth and his coterie that right, but not people like the orchardist, Vic Toews, and myself. We should know our place and stay humble, or...? You rightly point out that Vic's parents were invited. So were people of my own category, since being Danish is considered a 'good nationality' as pointed out to me by the people who gave me my first couple of toilet-scrubbing jobs in this country. I would certainly like to know how you classify Canadians, new, old, or otherwise, and what your criteria are for who can speak and who can't, in mixed company. I know there is a diversity in ethnic origin between Seth and me, and we have hammered enough on Vic having Mennonite origins, neatly sidestepping the actual words 'German descent'. So, is that it? or is it more about whether we are some of the 'true friends' as the student 'radicals' of my Copenhagen youth would have put it? Come on, enlighten the folk on who can hold the talking stick and who can't!

Vic Toews' background is hardly unique.

After WW II there were about 25 million displaced persons looking for a home. Those displaced from Russian held territory were reluctant, even afraid, to go back to Stalin. Some countries, including Canada took them in. They were refugees and perhaps the only reason they did not simply get on a boat and arrive on Canada's shores was that the option never presented itself. Some committed suicide rather than go back to Stalin's oppression and would very likely have considered arriving illegally and taking their chances.

Anyone with Vic Toew's background might want to show a little more compassion since he's one of the privileged who made it into Canada back when Canada was a compassionate nation.

One's background is not an excuse for a lack of compassion.