whens carole going to retire anyhow?

give it up carole, your like an old dog that wont die... ndp needs a new leader a man.

new party

Many people want a new party to vote for. Many be we can get a party with a real left wing / people caring idea. After all it takes more than the 2 parties that are now available to vote for to get a real people party. The neglect those who are not rich or don't have union protection are in need of is more apparent now than ever.
Ms James should here the people and leave It would allow the NDP'ers to revamp the party into something good instead of just another crappy place to vote that is meaningless to most BC'ers

The Center

I think British Columbians are tired of this Left versus Right stuff and really want a political entity that governs fairly for all, with logical decisions, with truth, and gives no preference to special interest groups. We need to get back to basics for a while, we need to concentrate on essential programs; infrastructure, education, health and the things that matter most .. jobs.

The entire system is completely out of whack. There is much duplication, too much downloading, too much taxation at multiple levels; too many so called arms length agencies, and policies that just do not make any sense.

We need a government that treats all people equally and without preference.

The Liberals are toast, there is no doubt. The NDP have way too much bad baggage. What we need is a party where the people actually have a voice, MLAs that actually respond to their constituents, and that government actually provides people with a platform and follows through only on that platform and seeks further approval where they change such.

Right now, Government(s) at all levels are doing things in a knee jerk fashion without any sense of cause and effect. Waste of tax dollars is rampant. This must stop!

sssshhhhhh

Olympic cost overruns either for direct or indirect projects are 7 times that of the Fast Ferries. Shhh...Canwest and the Premier's Propaganda Bureau are still working out the spin on this one.

Time for the NDP's Ms. Corrigan to shout out loud.

Has anyone heard from Ken Dobell lately, the former right hand man to Gordon Campbell and chair of the $400 million Trade and Convention Centre cost overrun. I am sure he retired with a City of Vancouver pension, a Translink severance package and a provincial government healthy consultancy fee, not to mention lobbying fees from Cubic, the people who are going to provide us with the $170 million Soviet style Translink fare (smart) cards and turnstiles. I wonder if he retired a multi-millionaire?

The Believers thread....

I'll leave those of you in on the status quo political system to duke it out here. I gave up on this bullshit democracy, and all its participating in the scam elements, a long time ago.

That said, the NDP has been listening to their real enemies, the likes of sdgreen on the extreme right, and tip-toeing about the political and socio-economic landscape, for far too long already. They are at best true Liberals themselves, of the Federal level variety, and practically no different than any other capitalist party.

The NDP really needs to unabashedly shit, and not apologize for the stink it raises, or get off the pot. Be something other than the milk toasts at least, that you have come to be perceived.

That's it. You "believers" duke it out. :-D lol.

NDP appear to be quiet as mice!

And Coyoteman describes what I think to a 'T'

Me too.

I'm with coyoteman too. I think it's all just propoganda and bullshit from here on in as we totter, eyes wide open, into a full fledged fascist state.

And C James is a feeble joke. I've lost count of how many times the ball fell into her court and she just turned her head, shut her eyes, put away the racket, left the court, and feebled off into the sinking sunset. She is a shameful excuse for a political leader.

Forget Refed

There are some interesting ideas, but howlers like this -- http://refedbc.com/wp2/?p=1864 -- just bring their shortcomings into sharper focus.

I'd like to see a centrist party less beholden to special interests develop out of the anti-HST campaign.

@sdgreen - the Center

Totally agree...

Dreaming out loud.

If only the Liberal’s where Japanese with a code of Honor! I would love to see a mass Hara-kiri. Carole James could lead the group off by falling on her sword first, yes she could lead by example!
Well that will never happen! Honor that is!
James is only leading in the polls due to the hate for Campbell.
Sadly Campbell will be replaced next election by a new Liberal leader and because James is so hated the Liberals will win again.
I’d bet 25 cents on that.
Mary Jane I love you and your comments are good too 

tiptoe/pussyfoot

We are crazy if they wait 3 years for the next election; however, if there were to be 7-10 good recall elections... perhaps we wouldn't have to wait the 3 years to see a change of leadership.

To sum up this thread

If I read these comments correctly, the NDP will prevail by moving to the center whilst simultaneously moving to the left. That sounds like a good way to make a pretzel, but not such a good way to get elected.

Also, apparently people who can't complete a coherent sentence are somehow able to call someone else an idiot, without a hint of irony.

Finally, we should just throw up our hands and forget it all because they're all bad.

Debating electoral strategy is all well and good, but the race is three years away. Look back into our electoral history and find examples of opposition parties that were doing a lot of heavy lifting three years away while the ruling party was imploding. You won't find many. In 1998, Gordon Campbell was sitting back while his friends picked the NDP apart. He didn't start seriously talking about his plans for the future until 2000. In 1988, the Harcourt NDP were similarly biding their time, watching the Socreds eat their young.

Right now, voters are taking aim at whoever is in front of them. The NDP are wise to wait until the ammunition has been spent. They are also wise not to take advice from message board posters who believe in pretzel politics.

CanadianLatitude

"The HST rantings will be a distant memory come next election. What happened to all the outraged people over the carbon tax? Nothing as less than a year later Campbell wins again..."

You are dead wrong. BC, no Canada, has never seen an uprising like this in history. The carbon tax complaints aren't even in the same ballpark. "HST rantings" won't be going away, but the Libs will.
Recall in the Fall!

If not the NDP or the Libs......

....then surely a party that WILL dump FPTP.

it ain't up to us,obviously

I have been an NDP supporter (well sort of) for most of my life in B.C.
I am afraid I have to agree with Rafe.
When resurrected SoCreds are the best alternative - though as far as I can tell they all simply changed their colors to Liberal and got cabinet seats - where would one find these new candidates?
Meantime Rome burns: central eastern Russia recorded it's highest temperature and NASA records four or months of record world wide temperature.
The Southern Hemisphere has record low temperatures -
Seems to me that was what "climate change models" predicted.
Apparently it don't mean S##t to a B.C. voter
If you can find one

How can she not know?

In every person who gives a damn`s gut and been a life long ndp supporter just knows she`s a good soul ,but damn damn damn please don`t allow our province to be further raped by this white collar criminal regime.she`s had two shots at it and she just can`t get people motivated to get out and vote, in fact i`ve stopped making financial conributions some years ago because of her, if she runs again i`ll not even vote at all. also, Dix and farnsworth are capable enough but John Horgan would have wiped the floor with that slimey weasel campbell had he been leading the ndp in the last election.

Oh Please....

Whiners and moaners listen up:
The NDP is at 46% under James. That's the highest number in almost 22 years, about 20% higher than Clark at his best and comparable with Harcourt at his best. She's taken a dead - let me repeat - dead party and made it competitive in five years of becoming leader. And she did that with almost no money and a completely neophyte caucus that had to learn their jobs from scratch.
Is she different than the usual NDP leader? Yes. She's sane, she's moderate, she's electable and she's got staying power. She reminds me of Doer in Manitoba, who took three shots before he succeeded.
I think most people here want the usual fire and brimstone, scary to the mainstream, 'to the barricades leader' who can properly represent the past. Oh, and they don't particularly like women who plan to govern like women and refuse to be male replacements.
We've now had 15 years of testosterone driven one man governments. God help us if we elect another because the beast needs to be fed.

The priorities we generally all seek...

like equality, representation and accountability are all left-leaning socialisms. But the word 'socialist' has been sullied for a century or more now - by both the left and the right, so a party that would carry out the will of the people would be aptly named the 'New Socialists' but at its own detriment.

Is the collective wisdom so obtuse that socialism need only be re-branded to take the seat of power in BC?

Who likes carole james best?

bc liberal party,pab, cknw,canwest global, phil hockstein,fraser institute, bill good keith baldry and any other corporate suck hole you`d care to mention, she guarantees ndp failure at the poles.

Future Eaters

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/07/19-2

I guess human decency is now called "socialism"

"THE GAME GOES ON"

Does anyone think that the NDP are politicians of a different ilk? Would they get rid of the HST? Would they bring back the tax on out of province banks? Would they even try to undo the damage done by capitalist financed Liberals? Ask them, the NDP, the big questions demand real answers, and commitments, you won't get them. After all, under our present political system the established have control. A middle of the road party could only be more of the same. Lets look to who is for political change and who can make our votes count.

Dream on

Those of you that are looking for a magical new party that will represent their constituents are dreaming in technicolor. There hasn't been and never will be such an animal. As long as we are fed a menu of candidates that are beholden to any party, we will have the same crap. Lip-service during an election followed by don't call me, I'll call you after the ballots are counted.

And those of you that want some sort of proportional representation, don't think that will make things better. Consider this. The federal scene, being a minority, emulates what prop. rep. would look like. Harper has been able to do pretty much what he wants because the other parties are financially strapped and want to avoid an election for as long as possible. Thus we get such jewels of legislation such as Bill C-9.

Our political system is designed by politicians, for politicians, not for the constituents. It's no use griping about their expenses, as they are only living within the guidelines they created for themselves. Until the successful candidates feel they have no choice but to represent their constituents first, nothing will change.

It's time to think independents and shun anyone tied to a party. Only then will those elected attempt to represent the majority of their constituents and could eventually be compelled to start dismantling the "pigs at the trough" mentality ingrained in the minds of our current MPs and MLAs.

Maybe if recall in the fall creates a few by-elections, those deposed could be replaced by a few independents. I'm sure that would get the attention of all political parties.

CanadianLatitude

You think Carole and the NDP should move to the Right so as to pick up supporters of Campbell's?

A lot of us wouldn't vote NDP if they followed your advice.

Let's remember that 7 or 8 years ago on here sdgreen was cheering Campbell's attack on HEU workers. He's not going to vote NDP unless Carole starts quoting the Fraser Institute.

archer2006

Well said.

Mainstream

Carole James and the N.D.P. get so little coverage from the usual suspects in the mainstream media it`s really not too fair to criticize them as being " too quiet".
Unless you read Hansard daily or actually attend parliament as a gallery guest how would you know?
The ruling class in B.C. really really hate the working class and their unions. The N.D.P. is associated by many as representing the working class and as others have pointed out has moved to include the middle class. The Pop media is the propaganda arm of the Aristocracy here in B.C. You have to wonder if there be anywhere else where the corporate class has such control of all media as B.C. Perhaps that would be a reason for the Bilderberg elites to invite Gordon. Gordons response was " They see the exciting things we`re doing in B.C." when asked "why" he had been invited.
I think they wanted to find out how he does it. Excercise such control over a populace with nary a peep...B.C. is being watched I think quite closely...as Gords Shock Doctrine Government experiments with ideas from Milton Friedman and Ayn Rand.
Unfortunately Gord likes the big shiny stuff (expensive stuff)
Splash with the Bling Bling..again.. all that glitters is not Gord.
Carole and the N.D.P. need the Bling! Too tweedy and rumpled!
Seriously I feel for Carole when she tries to respond to the pressure from her own side and inject a little fire and brimstone. It just ain`t how she rolls..she comes off sounding shrill..but she ain`t like that. She seems a consensus type..she`d govern more by consensus than the B.S. "Leadership!"
Gord and Steve are always harping on about.

2013 election results

Most people are already thinking about a provincial election in BC.

Most people must have not much else going on in their life.

Considering about 35% of BC votes, I guess talk is cheap.

Having travelled this province in my work I can say that people will vote liberal.

People are creatures of habit, we like the liberals even though they hurt us.

We like being hurt so we can complain. It gets us no where but we are creatures of habit.

NDP may be 50 points ahead but as soon as the liberals speak to the NDP track record the people get scared and vote liberal.

The people who are undecided (65%) just do not care and will tell you they have moved on to something else.

People we need a third party and Vanderzalm and Delaney know that.

So guys quit procrastinating and get on with it.

Do not fear as you have 65% of the BC population at your beck and call.

Proof is with your successful HST initiative.

Congrats guys.

Now go get them again and have your first political party win in 2013.

Control

Its all about control of the media that is and how you go about it I will leave that to your imaginations but what happens when control is practiced is a reality.
The Media is a powerful tool which can make or break a politician it is said and it is also said if you have the power of the press you have the power.
The NDP are kept in line without saying as wouldn't want to start telling it like it is as MLA could very well end up on the chopping block themselves.
I recommend Carol be herself, speak it like it is when given the opportunity as the Liberals stay on course and its a win for the party without any real voice as Liberals hold the majority of seats.

Van Isle

CKWN radio talk show where is staged because no one is in love with the Liberals nor do they believe party is doing a great job as the polls clearly show.
Wasn't that Basi's old job as Brown says Basi was a master at tricking the public especially on radio shows and it was all just party politics and part of the game. Whats wrong with Carol she not into tricking the public? And don't you think the Liberals had someone to take their place as Basi and Virk are awaiting a fair trial. I can't even believe I said that, fair trial.

NDP-Centrist Illusions being exposed I...

I've changed my mind. I'll weigh in here one more time.

The right of course, has its own prescriptions for what ails the NDP. Basically, dumb down and become, as the NDP indeed has over a long history now, just another "centrist", code speak for "party of capitalism".

I, however, will come at it from a fundamentally different direction of actually transforming society, and moving beyond the narrow confines of the class based status quo system.

When looked at from this perspective, rather than just winning this or that "parliamentary/legislative election", it becomes clear, and a long history since the last Great Depression demonstrates it, that even when you arrive at that place, if this is your total emphasis, you may wind up with formal control of parliament, period. But what kills such a limited view party every time is, the economy and real, effective vetoe power remains in the hands of the capitalist ruling class, which when you are not prepared to move against them and their power means, you wind up having to dance to their tune... whatever your best intentions might be. And that has been the real history of the NDP, time and time again, without variance. With the net result that they have, whatever the intentions of their rank and file might be, been steadily, more and more absorbed into the system over time and rendered sterile. No new babies coming from this ED crew.

If, on the other hand, your intent is to actually transform society, to challenge the assumptions of a ruling class dominated, so-called democratic system with a vision of your own that actually serves the mass of society, as opposed to this tiny elite with many ass kissing servants and shit loads of cash, it is necessary to look elsewhere for a real alternative source of power. And that untapped shit load of "alternate power" , more appreciated elsewhere than here, actually capable of challenging any ruling elite power and holding it, is this "mass" itself.

Now the classic NDP response to this is, yea, but there is no sign of movement there now, so this is all we have. And they are right.

But... it still holds true, that without it, without that movement of ordinary folks, you only get the jerk off out the window results which has been your stock in trade anyway. So what is the bloody point of winning this or that election, and then spending near all your time dancing to "their" tune, or running, ducking and hiding from their murderous assaults in "their" media etc?

Continued next post...

NDP-Centrist illusions being exposed II...

Continued next post...

Except for your professional politicians with their own self-centred "career ambitions", the rest of you would be better served putting your energies and resources elsewhere, into trade union and community organizing work anyway, building that real power base that can actually, in the right circumstances, as are taking shape in our time, seriously rock their ruling class world, and lead to the building of a real alternate and democratic power... on the streets, within the economy and its interface with the natural environment and in our communities and ngo organizations.

Power established there, especially the economy, which is precisely the places that privileged ruling class power is now centred, as the real source of their political power, the politics will come to take care of itself, being built as actually needed, on the basis of a democratic mass power over the economy, and these same communities.

Perhaps not an easier venture than your own current one, you folks in the NDP, but one which, the mass successfully finally organized, holds out the opportunity for a more real and significant result... of actually beginning the process of transforming society, not simply further propping up a ruling class and its elites status quo order.

Honk Honk

Sorry for being a Hog, no not that one but couldn't help but think how things would change so drastically as I can just see the front page now or hear the six oclock news. Can you? It will be a refreshing change as its one thing when a politician is giving you a snow job but when the media casts it programming and its news broadcast and newspapers to fit the governments criteria of the day, you just gotta know its not in the average citizens best interests for sure. Who has the power, the people to promote real change and demand excellence from their politicians and from their entertainment.

coyote

"eal, effective vetoe power remains in the hands of the capitalist ruling class, which when you are not prepared to move against them and their power means, you wind up having to dance to their tune... whatever your best intentions might be. And that has been the real history of the NDP, time and time again, without variance"

Not true. In power, the NDP has passed legislation that has bettered people's lives. Out of power its threat has forced legislation to be passed by capitalist parties in an effort to cut NDP support.

Success can't be measured by simply stating that the top 1% still rules the world, although that is a problem, because progress has been made since the Great Depression and the creation of the CCF in many spheres of everyday life.

Old age pensions, medicare, unemployment insurance, welfare, the existence of ministries for social services, children and the environment are all testament to the existence of the NDP.

We haven't won the battle its true but without a political vehicle for the Left we'd still be mired in the sort of society libertarians cherish what with their always looking back to the 1800's as the era of good government.

This Rome needs to come down I...

"Not true. In power, the NDP has passed legislation that has bettered people's lives. " wrote Frank.

All of which, Frank, has been and is being undone since the late 70s, as soon as the working class was disarmed into lethargy by the "reforms" of social democracy which, effectively, saved capitalism over the postwar. Social democracy's reforms of capitalism have come to nought, over which the NDP has much silently presided... even facilitated, as capitalism has slid again into economic crises. Until where they have come to with their strategic ideology of cutting deals with their right, whilst attacking and isolating their left, is to be seriously plumping to join with the Liberal Party. (And the significance of this should not be underestimated.)

Capitalism is bent upon the globalization and race to the bottom course it is on, across the entire international system, and the NDP will play along, as has other "labour" political groupings, as in Britain, however much looking back with fond memories to the old Social Democratic State of Capitalism, or they will be crushed with relentless capitalist media assaults and ever "New" parties of capitalism, as fast as the old ones are discredited. (They are already talking about a "new" capitalist party here, or a resurrection of the old Socred cadaver, mimicking the neocon right wing Wild Rose Party in Alberta. (Conservatives in yet another shape shifter form.)

It's a waste of time, my friend, Frank. Let the capitalist parties own and accept responsibility for current capitalism, and the order they are creating out of the destruction of the old Social Democratic State. Let the working class see who is really responsible for the crap coming out the waste pipe of the period.

We should be about frying other fish, than trying to help again save capitalism with a resurrection of the crucified Social Democratic State, and trying again to put a human face on capitalism. Let it be what it is going to be, and let the masses feel it, and the chips fall where they may.

It is the masses organized that will bring down capitalism in the end, if we leave the ruling class to their own devises, and concentrate on helping "the people" to do it, building their alternative power outside the restraining, bullshit structures of the bourgeois State and notions of democracy. We should focus on our own game, build our own alternative power, isolate the emerging Neoconservative state, and begin to challenge it for legitimacy, over the economy, our communities and beyond.

Continued next post...

This Rome needs to come down II...

Continuing from previous post...

Sorry Frank. The vanguardist, social democratic con has gone on long enough, and is in the process of being exposed for its fundamentally flawed, even opportunist analysis.... in my view. It is time to start building an alternate power to the ruling class state, ruling class assumptions and priorities. This NDP or even another vanguardist party for that matter, in my view, is a waste of time... more, it is accepting responsibility for the fate of capitalism, when we have no real say or influence in the matter. Let them do what they will. We should prepare a quite other field of battle with them.

This Rome too needs to be brought down, not toyed with, with false hopes and wishful thinking analyses any longer.

coyote

Yes things the NDP did get undone when the Right gets back in power. But that doesn't mean those reforms were meaningless. They helped people while they were in existence.

The struggle is a constant one, it isn't won with a single election. Of course that causes people to give up but that's the nature of democracy, every generation has to keep up the fight.

In my opinion the NDP doesn't help capitalism survive. After all, its not like capitalism was weaker prior to the creation of the CCF. The fact capitalism survived the Depression had little to do with the NDP, it was right-wing parties moving to the Left (because of the threat from that direction) until the people were satisfied things wouldn't be like they had been.

As for the future, I would say that what qualifies as "wishful thinking" is believing community organizations will ever challenge the power of the state. At best any positive results they achieve will be even more fleeting that the NDP winning an election.

We just had a huge shakeup of the global economy, it came at a time when the Right was ascendant both in North America and Europe. It happened on their watch, under their policies, at a time when capitalism had never looked stronger. Yet they're taking no responsibility for it. They're not "wearing it" as you might say.

We all have different opinions as to why that is but mine is that political apathy has put us here. People are no longer holding the system accountable and therefore it can do what it wants.

archer2006 - Kudos to You!

I believe that Rafe in one of his articles some time ago mentioned the "need" for brimstone, hellfire, and damnation. The notion of a woman governing like a woman scares most people. They think of women governing a la Maggie Thatcher (a man in a woman's body, politically speaking).

Let the game begin...

First, Frank, you know that I hold you in the highest regard. We just differ, brother. Hopefully there is a meeting place, somehwere down the road.

Let the game begin.

coyote

And the same to you. But as past conversations have shown, we actually do agree on a lot of things so there isn't that much to differ about.

Ms. James

An honest person amongst the wolves....but she needs to get some fight in her. Here is a govt. so corrupt that the ex. forest minister gives his own brothers company a huge gift of the land around Sooke etc. He would be in jail if he was in Illinois. We find people buying their jobs with donations to the liberals.....How did Hahn get to be head of BC Ferries and give himself a 1,000.000 salary? All these incredible are happening and I don't hear a huge outcry from the NDP. What gives? It turns out that many of the unions in BC have pension funds run by liberal supporters that donate to the liberal party....somehow the NDP needs to wake up. The Greens are splitting the vote, why is there not more of an effort to get them to be a wing of the NDP? Although Ms. James is a decent person the NDP needs a very forceful leader now.
Manuel Oscar

manuel

In the case of the Greens, we don't have a lot in common as was in evidence when the carbon tax was introduced.

Is there time for Gradualism?

"We should focus on our own game, build our own alternative power, isolate the emerging Neoconservative state, and begin to challenge it for legitimacy, over the economy, our communities and beyond." ~ coyoteman

I love the philosophical approach of Howard Zinn as much as the next left-leaning loon, where 'small acts, when multiplied by millions of people, can transform the world'.

Still I cannot help but think we are now on the interstate and there is no off-ramp approaching. The political neocon machine is bouncing off the rev limiter worldwide and we know she is gonna blow but, until she does, there is no slowing her down.

We simply do not have the resources available to combat the propaganda war. When the majority of Canadians believe our military is in Afghanistan on some humanitarian liberating mission -- which is true, in part, provided one recognizes we are there to liberate them from their sovereignty -- there are clearly no limits as to our credulity.

We loons, and all humanity, are now in a race against time. I'm unconvinced 'slow and steady' can get it done before our self-righteous, Christian crusade to dominate the kingdom and all its beasts brings us down. I see our collective behaviour more alike that of John Cleese's, the waiter, in the Monty Python 'Mr Creosote' sketch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlK62rjQWLk

Of course, 'small acts' are our only tool available and there is no comfort in going down without a fight. "Rage, Rage against the dying of the light" ~ Dylan Thomas

Can the NDP Win?

On a more pragmatic level, yes. Can we win another battle for social democracy? Yes. Can we win the war? I'm not so sure.

There are two main components to an election victory; the provincial campaign and getting out the vote on e'day. As for the latter, the votes have probably been there all along. If you have worked on an election campaign at the constituency level you know that the formula for success is pretty straight forward. One needs to help meet the human and financial resources needed to implement the process. You and $25 per month will probably do it if you are able. The resources do not involve large numbers. The spending limit is fixed and the people needed can be tallied up [I'v made this point each time I've commented lately. I know it is not THAT easy. The well educated and terrific people that I associate with say "I'm not interested in politics" leaving me speechless time and time again.
The provincial campaign is more complicated. Maybe I will throw in some thoughts next time. My wife has noticed that I am reading news blogs again. Gotta go cause I love her.

Let the feasting begin...

Pass me a slice of Carol's thigh, would you, Comrade Wobbly?

Man, as long as the doctrinaire left and the moderate left can't find common ground to stand on, there's no hope of an NDP-anything - or any other change of government, for that matter.

What Carole has done is give business no reason to fear the NDP. That was a useful experiment. If everyone wants to abandon that, no problem, but you can go back to 39% of the popular vote, and all the electoral success that brings you. And frankly, shouting General Strike every time an issue comes up isn't guaranteed to get my vote any longer.

Yes, there are reasons to pitch Carole, but John Horgan and Adrian Dix (mini-Moe) are certainly not two of them. There simply isn't enough talent on the NDP bench to either inspire a population or govern a province. All the real, thinking leftists are doing something useful or defending peoples' rights etc. There's not a Mike Harcourt or a Judy Darcy or even a Naomi Klein to be seen.

No, the only success for the NDP lies in helping the Fiberals self-destruct. Let the Fiberals wallow in the urine-yellow dissatisfaction that the voting centre is showering on them with their many screwups (of which the HST is only the smallest, let me tell you!) Watch them try to move to the centre to recapture lost voters. Then encourage the hell out of Delaney to make a go of his Conservative party by having him attack Campbell's business-failure record, and let the right split the vote for once.

That's the only way of getting a centre-left party elected in this province. And unfortunately for most of us, it's an exceedingly painful way, but the only one with a track record.

Tony Martinson

Pretzel logic, eh? Well said. Certainly can see some of us reelin' in the years....

pwlg

Very perceptive. Where is Dobell now? Don't ask the PAB.

Keep up the good work.

Red Baiting?

Zalm
"And frankly, shouting General Strike every time an issue comes up isn't guaranteed to get my vote any longer."

Where are you hearing this? I`m probably out of the loop but I haven`t heard mention of General Strike in at least 9 years let alone some shouting for one.
"There simply isn't enough talent on the NDP bench "
How do you know this? Like say..the Present government has talent on the bench? The federal Conservatives...they have a lot of inspiring talent on the bench?
Since when is talent a requirement? What do you mean by "talent"??

Dream the Impossible Dream

Here we go again, the lefties on this site are chasing another NDP wet dream and mirage. The next election is so far away and the Liberals have so many ways to make the electorate forget about HST and the reveal the NDP's manifest weaknesses.

Instead of trying to build a political party that is credible governing alternative, the lefties commit suicide by braying about socialism and engaging in a litany of anti-Campbell insults. Then, when it comes to making policies, the NDP can always count on its radical and loonie left to take the stage in all its insane glory. Moving towards the centre is the way to win, but the dinosaurs who run the NDP need to die off before that happens.

Then, of course, the NDP is ossifying because of its mediocre talent. Dix and his lot will easily remind people they come from the Clark days. That's enough to scare off voters like the plague. And if the NDP come to power we can expect them to be as "undemocratic" as the Liberals, only more incompetent in working with business. Much of the NDP talent is like a rerun nightmare of BC's "have not" province 90s days.

Ironically, Gregor Robertson serves as a harsh and laughable reminder of what to expect from NDP, left of centre leadership in this province. More social engineering and spin, feel good, politics and wasteful spending that doesn't improve the economy. The NDP has to convince voters that they won't trash the economy. Sure, you can say the Liberals have trashed the economy, but voters are scared the NDP will do even worse.

Given the choice to self-immolate, the NDP rank and file will choose the fire brand, Glen Clark firebrand, union troublemaker. It's so utterly predictable. The NDP doesn't realize that BC's economic demographics have changed beyond their comprehension.

Whine all you want about the evil Liberals and their sweet smell of corruption. The NDP has to win the election to make any difference and they simply don't have the constitution to even step into a vacuum created by the Liberals. Of course, elections are lost by the incumbent, not won by the challenger. The NDP still isn't up to this challenge- even if the Liberals are unpopular, the NDP cannot win.

Send in the Trolls

Foolishly I`ve opened the door for the trolls...by wanting to give the supercillious zalm a slap up the head...my bad..I shall return to exile..I don`t have the chops for this.

Quote:There are two main

You've left out a key component: shedding/destroying the economic incompetence frame that's been in place since before the 2001 election, mindlessly repeated by partisans like Bobby Peru above, and refuted over and over again by the likes of Will McMartin here in the Tyee, to no avail.

Until the big lie repeated incessantly by the mainstream media is exposed for what it is, a successful campaign with engaged supporters won't be enough.

Spiral of despair

There's really only one way the NDP can reinvigorate itself now: that's to replace Carole James. But, if they wanted to mount a serious alternative and campaign to Campbell they should have done so after the last election. Instead, a leadership change now would not allow enough time for a new leader to win over the voters.

Trolling? Hardly. It's just that the diehard leftists on this site don't know how to organize a political party that is a credible alternative. Instead, you have one group of leftist loonies who cannot disabuse themselves of the "workers of the world unite" dogma. The NDP rank and file are ludicrously unable to rid themselves of the poison Kool Aid they drank decades ago.

Instead, they rail against the inequities of the world and how the public will only believe them when the revolution of the proletariat begins. Hence, your political dominance will only extend as far as the smell of your fair trade lattes at the East Vancouver coffee house.

Perhaps Carole James can't win the next election or win it in the way some of you fire and brimstone leftists would like. Or win it in the way a union leader, class war instigating white guy would do it. The days when that kind of leader could inspire the working or middle classes in BC are long gone.

And insulting and vilifying Campbell and the Liberals simply won't work because you fail to offer a real, responsible governing alternative. The voters don't like Campbell and don't agree about his performance. But, they certainly think the NDP would be a far worse government.

Drop the hate and show the public some alternatives and then you'll have a real race.

Political Postings and Hypocracy

If our Provincial political leadership is supposed to be managed as a war, or conducted with the ruthless persona that most of these posts are asking of Carole James then why are you folk not happy with Gordon Campbell?

He is giving you the attitude you ask for and no one seems to get it - that you get what you ask for, and if you keep it up you will fare no better in the next election.

Somehow, everyone wants to political leadership that cares about our issues but they also want the face of a bully to win the right to rule. What kind of hypocritical nonsense is this?

Let's get real about this - if you want someone who cares about you and your issues then what kind of face do you expect to see?

If you want political leadership that supports the average working class from labour to middle management then what kind of personality would a caring person present to you?

The fact that Carole James strikes you as someone who cares about people but not mean enough to win a Provincial election is the very attitude that keeps bringing back to power scoundrels and crooks that shout out their pledge to you knowing they speak a lie as a ploy to get elected.

What kind of face do you want to see?

The provincial campaign component

Yes deeby. The entrenched beliefs are 'tax and spend' vs 'managing the economy'. It does not take long to get a reputation, but it sure is hard to get rid of one.
At this particular time the Libs are destroying these myths better than anyone else would be able to do. Three years is a long time though.
Assuming it will be Carole James, as it likely is too late to switch,I agree with Oldstyle. James does not come off well trying to appear to be less or more of something than she really is. She needs to be who she is and have others act as the attack dogs. She is a consensus builder, though I don't think that should be her campaign face. She needs to speak with words of conviction, but not with high emotion because she wants to win some make voters too.
I understand the risk parties feel in putting out a vision or policies too far in advance, but people do not know what the party stands for anymore, I think, specifically because they always try to snuffle up to the left of Libs, a moving target.
People want an alternative. Personally I don't care if the NDP loses if it was because the people did not want what they offered.
A few attach dogs and Carole and a few others focusing on what the party will do in a consistent and coherent manner might cause the voters to start hearing her. "The Libs have the wrong priorities. As gov't we will....
Most of the electorate don't seem to know what we want. At least not something many can agree upon. So why not take some leadership and put a vision out there.
The media will be a problem, but there is a lot of potential in the alternative media.
Things are ripe for change. I still don't know if soc-dem can win the war, but there are battle to be one.

bob the cat

I know you've been reading these pages, so you can just scroll back a few months and find some articles on hospital workers, or a few more months and find the pages on immigrant labour. You'll find all kinds of comments there calling for General Strike. Regrettably I've a couple of coworkers who seem to think it's the answer for all situations too - we don't need to go into the problems in my workplace now. Suffice to say I've heard more General Strike in the past couple of years then I ever expected to hear considering how badly the CEO of the Province is running things. Let him self-destruct, I say, don't provoke him and give him an excuse to make up another fantasy about the left that he then has to crush.... I'm sure you know the drill.

Never mind the troll - nobody feeds him the grub he likes anyway, and the scroll wheel makes him easy to ignore.

But I am happy to be called supercilious, if it raises the level of debate here. When the best we can do is bitch about per-diems or refuse to acknowledge to ourselves that the NDP is continually trying to bridge an unbridgeable gulf between doctrinaire and accommodationist, then someone needs to kick us in the thinking box. Archer2006 did a nice job of it, and Tony Martinson has our pulse, not to mention a few others, yourself included, but vast majority think that all the problems can be solved by booting Carole as if that were an end to it, and frankly...that's bullshit.

PS

What do I mean by talent? Someone who can think on their feet, smack the ignorant in a funny way instead of playing to them, inspire voters with a useful vision, and whip-hand the obstreperous to make it come about. Early Trudeau, Harcourt, early WAC Bennett, Judy Darcy, Steve Jobs... I didn't say they had to be politicians.

And no, there's a dearth of talent on the Fiberals bench too, just like there's a dearth of talent in Ottawa. Don't be putting words in my mouth.

The Wanderers

Labelling your critics as "trolls" is an easy way to deal with the insecurities and shortcomings of the NDP. Wringing your hands and hoping for a miraculous victory by the NDP in 2013 is like waiting for Santa Claus. "Tiptoeing to victory" assumes Campbell and the Liberals will be hated as much as Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong Il. You diehards may despise him as much, but not the rest of the voters.

I would love to see the NDP win because BC needs a genuine political alternative. The problem is the NDP candidates are so ludicrously bad that they simply turn off working and middle class voters. The NDP's platform is controlled by unionists and left wing nutjobs who formulate embarrassing policies. Most importantly, the NDP must decide upon a sensible policy to work with business. BC people want a healthy economy and jobs from which social programmes can be sustained.

Do you NDP supporters think voters will let you run a government in this day and age without sensible economic policies and candidates who understand the economy?

A general strike? Is Zalm in a "Hot Tub Time Machine" transported to the 80s? "Solidarity" won't work today. Fewer workers are unionized and few workers have any sympathy for government workers. And government unions do not help the average workers of BC.

If the NDP is only going to throw the same tired, sanctimonious policies and hope to win because the BC voters suffered some apoplectic fit of insanity or enlightment then they can expect Carole James to captain another loss. And then the party faithful to haunt the NDP blogs wailing and gnashing their teeth, asking themselves yet again what happened.

Am I hearing this right?

"I would love to see the NDP win because BC needs a genuine political alternative." or so goes the line. If the NDP becomes just another liberal, spineless party, then it will be acceptable. "Sensible economic policy" is a euphemism for the same worn out market capitalism that has brought us all to the current mess where the poor pay more and the rich pay less and get richer. That is reality even though Peru and his ilk still think it is something from Karl Marx. Statscan keeps telling it that way and some still whine for "sensible economic policies"

Trying to be moderate and "sensible" is the very problem with Carole James and the whole bunch of them. I have not heard a single progressive policy that people can hold on to and vote for. Let her come out with a list of the dozen or so changes she will make in the first six months of office such as getting rid of the HST cash grab, the carbon tax grab, shift the tax burden a little to those liberal supporting resource industries which have been getting all the tax cuts in the past, stop ROR and resource sell offs and there are more, and you will have the beginning of a chance at the brass ring. Ease the burden on those who spend 95% of their incomes in their own communities and things will improve. Until then, the NDP are not worth voting for and Peru's comment suggesting that they are all useless seat warmers is an accurate description.

But please Bobby spare us the stuff about "you would vote for them". You never will because Campbell suits you just fine. Nice try though

Economy?

Is there some people who know how the economy works? There are a few conservative slogans pounded into brains by the MSM for 30 years. There is very little public exploration about 'economics'. It is too late,though, to try and educate the public with some alternate concepts prior to another election; only sustainability and fairness. The Libs come up very short in these areas as well as their own economic dogmas. To bad Social Indicators of economic success get so little press.

{BrW; Skywalker; during discussion on V School B you, or another, persuaded me to read the history of school bunding in BC. I did and saw little difference between NDP firing a board and Libs, potentially, doing it. I just want you to know that I did the workl}

Not to put too fine a point on it...

but myworld2 then you know that the difference was that the NDP inherited an operating deficit of $2.5 billion which bedeviled them for years while the Liberals inherited almost the equivalent in surpluses. Clearly there are more options when you are flooded in cash. The larger crime is not doing something when resources allow or doing something ideological instead.

In the end

The question isn't whether the NDP will win the next election and it certainly isn''t about Carole James' political personality.

The question is are they worth voting for if you're a progressive. Do they have progressive policies? Skywalker and coyote say no and therefore I'd like to see the NDP make more of an effort to speak to them.

Bobby Peru

You spend a lot of time telling us that what you think is what "all the voters" think.

I think you need to look at the polls and come to terms with the fact you're part of a shrinking minority and that not many other people in the province think the same way as you.

If you indulged in that bit of self-analysis and were honest with yourself you might come to see yourself the way the rest of us see you, as someone so far out there that none of us bother to read your 20 paragraph rants against the NDP.

After that you can start making some changes. Its probably a long road but I wish you well if you choose to take it.

myworld2

Your quote: "BrW; Skywalker; during discussion on V School B you, or another, persuaded me to read the history of school bunding in BC. I did and saw little difference between NDP firing a board and Libs, potentially, doing it."

That was me actually, not Skywalker. Thank you for taking me up on my challenge to dig a little deeper for some much needed perspective which is very often sadly lacking in some quarters.
Ironic isn't it that after the latest drama over the VSB the NDP is still the only government that has ever fired a democractically elected school board in this province.