can you spell "symbolic"?

Is this indeed an olive branch of good will?
We already have signs in both official languages as well as areas where signs also are in Chinese or Hindu languages to make the locals feel good.
We have place names that few can pronounce or spell, can you remember how to spell Tssawwassan or however it is meant to be spelled?
We have streets, tunnels etc. renamed and thus making older maps obsolete, all so we can pay tribute to heaven knows who.
Did Montreal need to have a Pierre Trudeau airport before his legacy was established?
Tieleman is correct that renaming Stanley Park would only satisfy those who are looking for symbolic gestures.
I also disagree that natives need to be poor, I see it as a matter of local leadership since many of their nations are incredibly rich.
Perhaps it is time that we let them sort out their own problems and quit feeling guilty?

The feds have let Krueger

The feds have let Krueger and some tourist guys off the hook as they declared that there would be no name change.
As for Indian poverty I still find it hard that some bands are broke, having lived on land set aside for a number of years , paid taxes to the band not the municipality and of course the locatees who "possess but don't done the land", so they don't have to pay taxes. The Federal "self taxation" agreement allows the bands to not pay taxes on what their places, but have no qualms insisting that non Indians sure pay. Some band members do very well financially so the federal money doesn't seem to get spread around all that well. One ex chief for example is the richest man in the BC interior, on a reserve that rents out to 9,000 non Indians, yet the band members are less than 500 hundred.

meh.

The region that is currently Stanley Park was originally territory that was often used by both Musqueam (near UBC) and Squamish nations. That is, until Lord Stanley came over on his boat, walked around a bit and decided to claim it as a public park for the good use of everyone.

I enjoy using Stanley Park on a daily basis, and I also think that it's interesting to recognize the history in our city and province. It makes for a thought-provoking story, it provides historical context and it encourages people to think about what Vancouver looked like before explorers came out this way.

For young Aboriginal people growing up and seeing the general public take pride in their culture as much as they should; this can only lead to future confidence and leadership. There's nothing wrong with that.

Lord Stanley was probably a boring dude, anyways.

cont'd.

So i should have mentioned in the above post that I'm in support of the name change. why not? let's be crazy, live a little.

Were You Being Deliberately Provocative Mr. Tieleman?

Your comment:
"But the "culturally sensitive" are having a field day feeling guilty for bygone colonialism that none of us were remotely involved in."
Your tired excuse of not being involved in colonialism is not valid. Descendants of colonialists live on land that was taken from aboriginals.
My descendants had their Red River land forcibly taken by whites from Ontario and the British Isles, something we don't forget and live with daily, particularly when we see what that land is worth today. And to top it off, they were called savages and treated like dogs. No one forgets that.
When a request for a name-change draws such puerile reaction and outright dismissal, well, it's no wonder aboriginals are hopeless.

Why not call it Enbridge Park!

The idea is a misdirection away from the real issues like a pipeline and oil tankers through First Nations territories!

Xwayxway

I like it. And I sure as hell prefer that it be called "Xwayxway" over that of another aristocratic British imperialist as was Lord Stanley, even if he was the Governor General of Canada at the time.

I vote for "Xwayxway". It's sure as hell a more appropriate Canadian place name than some representative of the old, even ancient, now defunct British Empire.

Give me a couple tries, and I'll learn to say it just fine. :-( Keep after them our Native brothers and sisters.

Mayor Robertson Is Right

Vancouver Mayor Gregor Robertson said the proposal should be considered, noting that he often heard the park called Xwayxway when he was growing up in the city.

And I also remember Stanley Park called Xwayxway while growing up.

The imperialist Stanley Park moniker sould be trashed ASAP. Xwayxway Park now!

conservatives

Gee Bill..maybe you`ve been hangin` around too many conservatives lately...so..what happened to the village that " once was located there"?
I`d like to see a dynamic village of longhouses..canoes carving..totem carving...canoe racing..native artisans..all along the "Lumbermans Arch" area..some incorrect wood smoke..salmon smoking and drying...the whole shebang...but then it might spoil the view of your sulphur piles over at Lynn...and of course the wonderful North Shore Mountains. Xwayxway could link up across the inlet with Capilano. Just think..maybe some monies to be made..knock those German tourists socks off.. you know...poor Indians helping themselves. The Earl of Derby...what was it 5 years the great one spent here?

First "Nations"

I find it curious that many of the first nations seem to have access to quite a nice revenue stream, they also seem to be getting handouts and special treatments from both the Provincial and Federal Government and yet many of them live in poverty. Who's fault would that be?

Maybe it's time to stop the special treatment, take away the incentives and instead treat them like the rest of Canada's citizens? Get rid of the reserves (really, they started out as holding pens) and transfer the structure over into either a local Government or holding corporations for the lands (with each of the members receiving a share in the enterprise).

This way they can keep the land and make use of it, but instead of having some elders control money / investment it would be more open and easier to access, without band politics.

Or maybe I am just dreaming.

Of all the major issues we face...

...spending time and energy on such is really a waste. Symbolic to some but a real waste.

Was it a rename or secondary name proposal?

I was under the impression that the proposal was to add the native name as a secondary one to the Stanley Park name. Not to let a nuance like that get in the way of a good old time 'common sense, people's values, hands-off-my-language' rant, of course ;)

real issues

Yesterday walking back to Strathcona from downtown I saw a young native woman with the obvious symptoms of Rickets, a disease I had imagined to have vanished with Dickensian London.

How is it possible that, in modern Canada, a person can be afflicted with this easily prevented but life ruining childhood illness and that then no simple medical intervention to correct the problem should have occurred?

We need to deal with serious issues and ensure that the billions of dollars of subsidy is diverted from the sink hole of incompetence and corruption, not get distracted by nonsense like changing the name of a city park.

Never ending " Politically correct" madness

I never cease being astonished at how Canada's colonial past is vilified and that anyone connected with that past should feel ashamed and guilty. That our guilt condemns us to perpetrate a welfare system that enables dysfunction within a visible group. For those that are naive enough to think that one aboriginal band has claim over another concerning their so called claim to traditional territory think again. While the politically correct have conjured up this idyllic picture of peace and harmony that supposedly existed before the Europeans arrived, such was not the case. The rules in North America were the same as the rest of the planet at the time. Whom ever was the meanest and the smartest and the toughest and genetically best equipped ran the brier patch. The natives were just as capable and guilty of their own(genocide,murder,cannibalism,slavery,rape) atrocities conducted against one an another to control the resources at hand. For anyone to claim that there should have been sudden change in the rules of engagement because the Europeans were more technically advanced and resistant to human borne pathogens is absurd. Time to stop playing silly word games and get people to become responsible for themselves in today's world. Time for the politically correct to stop with the fairy tale past.

Hey Paisley

To follow your logic, " Time to stop playing silly word games and get people to become responsible for themselves in today's world,"
then we'll allow the drug addicts, homeless, mentally ill, those with Down Syndrome, fetal alcohol syndrome, autism to be responsible for themselves.
Maybe you forgot that the Europeans had superior weaponry but if it wasn't for the help of aboriginals, many would have starved to death during the winter in the Prairies.
But, you're absolutely correct about today's welfare state.

Build a replica village....if you dare

then call it Xwayxway but come up with a spelling that better reflects the actual pronunciation. The current one appears to be a stuttering Elmer Fudism for a medical image.

I don't know who the blockhead was that came up with these spellings but he must have been on something other than fresh air and clean water.

The Answer is Simple

The answer is simple FAS on some reserves over 60% of the children are affected, poverty nothing to do with it. It is time that we hold the native community accountable.

Political Incorrectness and Fanciful History...

Nothing like an issue involving our Native brothers and sisters to bring out the obsessively "politically incorrect." Time to hold these racist historical revisionists accountable for their own "fairy tale history". None of which is more "fanciful" and "distorted" than that of the "first contact" down to British Empire history, and the present US Manifest Destiny we are being used as silly bugger dupes for, still being acted out around the world.

Human history is certainly not a history of human fairness, for sure, but until we get there, we have a problem that is irresolvable, Houston. Endless class and imperialist wars, the genocide of whole peoples, and the virulence of widespread political incorrectness.

Fanciful history is still attempting to be written in Iraq, Afghanistan and Israel... along with the Dance of Death of its Evil Twin.... widespread "Political Incorrectness".

Democracy building? My ass.

I'd vote for Xwayxway, current spelling, just to piss these guys off. Take that political correctness where the sun doesn't shine.

Oh, come on!

What's the real issue here?

Those that want the name change - what's their game? And for those that don't - what's their game?

There is nothing real or meaningful about any of this. A name change, symbolic or not, will not make a dent in past, present or future realities for any of us. At least no meaningful dent.

DPL,
I see Jimmy Pattison has a lot of cash on hand and he doesn't seem to want to spread it around my way. Do you think he should?

I fail to see how anyone's life is going to be made better by a name change to a park. Nor do I see that anything better for First Nations people should be part of the debate. It is all a moot point now anyway - Ottawa has decided.

These debates are small illusions that distract us from the real issues that surround all of us these days. A paper tiger has more substance.

Oh my God! Don't I have anything better to do, like slam Campbell for the idiot he is!

to ramona 777

Yes i have spent time on the rez. I lived there for years had 3 children, lovely wife etc etc. Yeah its true about the higher FAS stats and all that. Its time for the First Nations to stop blaming Whitey and hold their Band Offices accountable. The waste, the corruption, the backroom deals all because a family member has some drag on policy, its there, ive seen its effects. So when a Chief, and a Grand Chief to boot, says there is a epidemic of poverty on the reserve he should look at his own honoraria and fuel/hotel allowances for starters. Then he can start helping his own people like he should.

Do I get this right?

"..For young Aboriginal people growing up and seeing the general public take pride in their culture as much as they should;"

You want the general public to take pride in aboriginal culture? Why on Earth? Isn't that for aboriginal people to do, as it belongs to them?? As for those of us who are not aboriginal (at least not here, since we all are somewhere), Would it not be more fitting that we took pride in whatever culture belongs to us? Always providing, of course, that we actually do have something beyond consumer-culture! I wager most of us do have some roots of sorts. I don't mind Scots people flaunting their kilts and bagpipes, but I do mind that it is the default thing for everyone, as it really has no meaning for a descendant of any other tribe. As for me, give me my mead, my lur, and my axe-throwing for fun, and my dreki for going places!

Old style makes reference to

Old style makes reference to Patterson. Jimmy Patterson is in business for himself and his family.He pays his taxes like most of us.

A chief is elected, just like the rest of the band council to handle the funds coming onto the reserve. Some do a good job and some not so good. That's their job. To try to compare a business person to a band is simply silly. and as I said I lived on "Land set aside , owned a house there, and yes I paid taxes to the band. None of us non Indians had a vote in how the money was spent. The Federal Indian Affairs Minister told me that he voted for us, mind you he never asked what we thought about the deal. The feds brought in self taxation yet allowed the bands to exempt themselves from the tax structure. So a lot of rich Indians did nothing to help the rest of the band members. Sorry to be a bit long winded but ten years hanging around treaty meetings showed us who was doing just fine and who wasn't in the band.

coyoteman turns on the light....

...but most are still in the dark for some reason.

How many people here experienced a negative change in their world because the name Queen Charlotte Islands was changed back to Haida Gwaii? Or when Ayers Rock was changed back to Uluru? (Seriously, if so, please delineate the facts.)

You are asked to give nothing more than to allow others the same opportunity to remain connected with their past as we all desire for ourselves. Is even that too much of a burden to shoulder, a little human understanding and compassion?

I fail to grasp how returning a name for the benefit of a few yet to the detriment of no one can be anything but positive. Unless, of course, we are so hypocritical as to label the act "meaningless" in one breath and "another big concession the white man makes to the natives" in the next.

samuidave

[quote[You are asked to give nothing more than to allow others the same opportunity to remain connected with their past as we all desire for ourselves. Is even that too much of a burden to shoulder, a little human understanding and compassion?

Nothing wrong with remaining connected with the past as long as you have a good anchor in the present. This unfortunately is not the case for many of those who seek to blame others for their misfortunes.

A Media Fact sheet from the Squamish Band

shows the following Economic Activity:

"ECONOMIC ACTIVITY: The Squamish Nation owns land in the Lower Mainland that
has some of the highest real estate value in Canada. Some of these lands are leased and
rent is generated to fund programs and services for membership. Some tenants on
Squamish lands include: Park Royal Shopping Centre, the International Plaza, the
Greater Vancouver Sewage Treatment Plant, the Capilano Trailer Park, and the Real
Canadian Superstore."

They're not a poor band.

Read the rest of the Media Fact sheet here:

http://www.squamish.net/files/PDF/events/FactSheet_FINAL.pdf

BTW Bill I agree with you 100%.

To DPL

You are so right in many ways. A Band should never be run like a business. If it were, all of our natives present assets, would have been sold off long ago. For the benefit of the "shareholders" (tribe). The native culture and the native race are more important to our country, than many of our other precious resources. They require husbanding, not as evidenced by the present bureaucrats or their appointee's. Maybe we could turn "Lumber Mans Arch" into a native village, where native youth can go to a "camp", learn of there heritage and take home a value in their heart. The "elders" have so much to teach and we need a place where the youth can go, to learn and to be grounded in their culture. Why spend millions changing a name. Lets instead make a "Mecca" for a "culture" that has been neglected and dismissed by our governments.

Slipper slope....

Given the entire province was previously occupied by First Nations, why stop at Stanley Park? Let's rename Vancouver, other parks, other municipalities, etc... Where does the madness end? I don't think we should not rename some historic aboriginal locations. I just think we (and the media) should not make this into a major issue, when in fact, in this case, it was just a whimsical utterance of a single chief, not an official suggestion by the band that has claims to the park.

The difference with Haida Gwaii -- that was a much more concerted, long-term effort by local natives, and the name change was deserved. The Stanley Park thing was whim, and the fact it has gotten so much media play tells me there ain't a whole lot (outside the HST) to report on right now.... *yawn*

I generally agree with Bill. Symbolic name changes minus substantive political changes amount to fluff and diversion from the real issues.

The Queen is symbolic too...

...but the vast majority of patriotic Canadians seem to be delusional enough, and in want of reason to such an extreme, that they insist on granting her the highest of regard. And to do so costs Canadians millions of tax dollars as well (not a cent of mine goes with support of this fraudulent venture, I might add). So clearly symbolism alone should not be a barrier.

"I generally agree with Bill. Symbolic name changes minus substantive political changes amount to fluff and diversion from the real issues."

BUT WE are not solving your 'real' issues proceeding as we have, are we?

Perhaps a different approach is needed. Or are we going to repeat our past acts with the same results forever, always hoping, like idiots, change is coming just around the next bend?

If problem solving were so cut and dry, we would not have a worry in the world. But humans are complex beings, and small changes can have meaningful effects. Psychologists have known for years that simply changing a workplace environment, whether for better or for ill, will result in an increase in production in the short term. How fickle is that?

Ask yourself this very simple question: is it a good idea to extend some warmth and understanding to another or is it a bad idea?

It costs us virtually nothing. And if we get nothing in return, we are still doing better than your elected representatives in Victoria. And you can still call it Stanley Park and I am sure no one will complain. :)

In time, Ceylon became Sri Lanka, Siam became Thailand, Bombay became Mumbai; in time the park will be known as Haida Gwaii -- it even sounds romantic!

Much ado about nothing

This is not an either-or situation. Changing the name of a park has nothing to do with the social and economic situation of First Nations people in this province.

As samuidave and others have said, it's a simple, positive act that hurts nobody. I see no negatives in it, and I have yet to hear a reasonable argument why we shouldn't add to or change the name?

And don't get me started on "slippery slope" arguments, which are ludicrous. They have been used to add legitimacy to all kinds of intransigence and subjugation. (My "favourite": If we let gays marry, next we'll have to allow people to marry their animals.)

Thank you Samuidave

For being an understanding, nonbiased, rational person.
One more thing, just who was Stanley? I don't think he ever even lived in Vancouver.

Lord Stanley, Earl of Derby....

"In time, Ceylon became Sri Lanka, Siam became Thailand, Bombay became Mumbai; in time the park will be known as Haida Gwaii -- it even sounds romantic!" Samuidave pointed out, though he likely meant that "the park will be known as Xwayxway." :-)

And likely it indeed shall, especially given that Natives are the youngest and fastest growing part of the Canadian population.

Near as important however, all these old names later corrected or changed which samuidave mentions, were the old British Empire usage names. Time to correct this one too.

Who was Lord Stanley? (Besides another pompous Brit royal ass.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Stanley,_16th_Earl_of_Derby

Park # 51

Oh come on: nobody gives a shit who Stanley was!
as far as I am concerned it could be named Vancouver Park #51.

The whole point here is that changing names of things only confuses people and serve no purpose.

As far as dragging in whether or not we owe anything to the natives, that is another matter that really needs discussion!

In my book the present generation are freeloaders who spend their time pretending to maintain the old lifestyle but with all the convenience of modern society and benefits that nobody else get.