People like to bash PET in

People like to bash PET in some quarters but in all seriousness who has been a better PM since? I do not think anyone. Broadbent would of been a good PM. I never really liked Chretien, Paul Martin was ok, Mulroney sold us out and Harper, gawd what can you say about him? He lost me when he said the earth is 6000 years old despite all the evidence to the contrary..

I also would say there are no countries that have a real-true democracy including Canada.

**Second, we are amongst a tiny handful of countries still saddled with the absurdly anachronistic voting system that allows for government by executive dictatorship by any party that can get 40 per cent of the vote. **

It is no benefit to the Libs, Cons or BQ to change this and that is why it will never happen. Harper would of only won 112 seats the last time, NDP would of had 57 and Greens 20 and libs about the same and the BQ about 30 if we had full pro rep.

Lets face it, the only

Lets face it, the only reason Harper is still in power is because of the incompetent Liberal Party. Harper is polling anywhere depending on what poll from 29-33% so he is not all that well liked and in there by default due to the Liberal party of Canada not being able to run a lemonade stand.

Latitude

When did he say this?

"He lost me when he said the earth is 6000 years old despite all the evidence to the contrary.."

Or is this just a myth?

Coalition

We in BC are double damned. We also have Campbell. He and Harper are like mutating cancer cells. We do need a coalition with NDP/Liberal federally...and NDP/Green provincially.

Democracy Lost

If not for reading the headline and opening paragraph, I'd have thought Dobin's first, second, third and fourth points pertained to the BC political experience -- the only difference being -- the federal Liberals may be liberal, while the BC provincial Liberals are far right conservatives.

Under Campbell, Democracy in BC is as endangered as the Spotted Owl.

-election fraud (HST and deficit)
- stifle BCUC
-gag Mary Ellen Turpel-Lafond
-silence regional districts with Bill 30
-FOI delays, $, carte blanche censoring, court challenges
-terminate BC Human Rights Commission
-6 or 7 years and still nothing re. BC Rail flimflam...

for starters.

realisticman

Actually, it was (is) Stockwell (aka Doris) Day who believes the 6,000 year thing. But, as was noted by Harry Truman: "The buck stops here."

The main reason the main

The main reason the main political partys don't want to do anything about voter turnout is because it's easier for the incumbent to be re-elected.

I agree with everything that

I agree with everything that Murray Dobbin said in this article. It shouldn't be all that much of a stretch for the Liberals to form a coalition with the NDP, because they already have two former NDP provincial premiers (Bob Rae and Ujjal Dosanjh) in their ranks.

A coalition would infuse the Liberal party with several very experienced, very bright, very committed new minds, and would result in a lot of good policies for the nation. In the short term this would be one of the best things that could happen.

Just as a side benefit, a lot of these bright new mind are already commited to the idea of electoral reform.

Contempt revistited.

I read Bill Gairdner's 'The Trouble with Canada' a couple of weeks ago and find it to be the nemesis of 'The Myth of the Good Corporation'. Read both. Even though Gairdner's book does not even have the word 'corporation' in the index, these book are deeply at odds on many issues. For Gairdner, corporations are immune from wrong-doing, or their wrong-doing serves such a divine cause that they are infallible. He framed them out of the question of wrong-doing, which is even more potent than defending them. Dobbin's book remedies that.

Both authors agree, however, that governments pretty much ignore what the majority want.

From this article: 'First, we have a government so contemptuous of democracy that it is utterly unapologetic in trying to impose on the country an agenda opposed by probably 75 per cent of the population ...'

Gairdner offers two pages (pg 164 and 165) of Gallup Poll issues where the Liberal Government have somehow resisted the majority will, starting with 'Cut Spending, don't raise taxes' to 'Courts are too lenient with criminals'.

Which takes us back to the first comment on this article... did democracy ever take hold? I think what Dobbin said in his book was right... we're a branch plant of the Hudson's Bay company.

I'm not sure any of this matters, though. The US is so off the rails of its constitution, both government and corporations, that even if we do become a real, vital democracy, how could we avoid the train wreck? Grass roots is good, but how does grass roots stand up to Dick Cheney?

Grass Roots Only Way Out

The lesson India learned in 1940 is about to be taught here. It was ONY through direct action and grass roots reforms, spear headed by Gandhi, that resulted in massive social change. The same event occurred in the 1960's under Dr. Martin Luther King.

While it would be easier for all of us if Layton and the Bloc and the Liberals created a coalition, I suspect they are incapable of the task. So in the end, it will be up to us. If Bolivia can self organize, if India could, if the impoverished black community of the 1960's could, can't we?

And if we can't do this, in 2010 in Canada with all of the tools and skills and freedoms that we have, it's a very sad day for democracy,

Great coverage as always from one of Canada's clearest thinkers.

I agree with Dobbin except

I agree with Dobbin except in one regard. He writes that the Liberals' "inexplicably" blocked the coalition, and that it was a "big mistake." - a mistake for the masses of progressive thinking Canadians who wanted to see it happen, yes, of course, but it wasn't a mistake to the Liberals, for whom it was perfectly deliberate.

The corporate factions currently have the party by the yoke, and thus, don't want a coalition with the left -- under any circumstances, win or lose. It was clear from the moment they dumped Dion on the pretext that the public "hated" him and the coalition idea, that it really was the Libs themselves who stopped it cold in its tracks - he was much too green for them, and under a coalition govt. would have made all kinds of dramatic changes they just couldn't tolerate.

Referendum

When Quebec wanted to separate from Canada a Referendum was held. It was a highly charged debate that drew thousands upon thousands into the streets to march OUI or NON. I actually hitchhiked across the 401 highway from Kinsgton to Montreal with university pals to protest in favour of keeping Canada united.

All you have to see to know that democracy is loosing its hold is that the only way to get people out in these kinds of numbers anymore is for a hockey game. The people are afraid and if democracy is supposed to be the light that warms and illuminates, it's not working here in Canada at present.

Blame Harper, blame the Liberals, blame the Middle East, blame the mortgage lending crisis, blame the economic slowdown, blame who you want.

I blame the baby boomer generation.... the ME generation. After the World Wars and the Cold War the boomers weren't content after they got their dream home and car, they had to have 2 more of everything. All of this has amounted to legal battles strangling the courts, a broadening and inhumane stretch between what is enough and what the people want, and an iron fist on the young and youthful ideals. If the baby boomer generation were to allow the natural progression to transform leadership by promoting growth of fresh talent and ideas we wouldn't be looking at the grim horizons we have in front of us today. But the geezers are not loosening the reigns at all and won't croak on their death beds until all that's left has already gone to hell.

Anti HST

Interesting points and it is happening here in BC with the BC Liberals. However we are doing something that has not happened before. We are standing up to the tyrants. And that is what we must do if we want a democracy.

Biased as usual.

Dobbin, as always your NDP bias is astounding. Do you actually believe that Jack Layton has any intention of passing Proportional Representation federally? The NDP has always been an opportunistic party, their provincial parties have never followed through on their promises to scrap FPTP as soon as they are the first past the post. And the NDP have had many chances to force proportional representation through back in the Martin Minority, but choose to score cheap political points instead, because without fptp Layton will never be prime minister, and whats the point of a better Canada if hes not in charge? You also have the issue of the Bloc, who do not want to Proportional Representation system. A post election coalition would be contingent on Bloc support and PR would not get it. The only way PR has any hope of passing is a pre election coalition, possibly Lib,Green,NDP, (60%) or Green,lib, (40%) or even Green,NDP... (33%)... The first would be the best option, with riding's divided among each party according to A-incumbency, B-last election results C-closer riding being divided to get an overall seat balance based on national public support levels.. The second would probably even draw a fair number of NDP votes, who would vote strategically to Stop Harper and would feel comforted by the Green presence in the coalition as it would mean Proportional Representation for the NDP in the following election. The third , which is unlikely due to Jacks ego.. would actually be a powerful coalition.. if a Green/NDP alliance was polling at 30-35%, with liberals down under 30%.. A lot of strategic votes could flow into the Green/NDP side. Anywho.. The basic point is a post election coalition has no hope of PR because of the Bloc.

Dad said

Part of the Victory Generation, no amount of evidence will convince Dad that our democracy has been stolen, repainted and sold to the highest bidder.
Dad said, "I voted for Harper's party because they seem the best ones to protect my pension." To which I had no answer, no comeback, no valid argument. Finally, I entreated him to enjoy his retirement, because he was enjoying it for both of us.
The weight of criminal corporatocracy and its enablers, the investor class, (large and small investors included) will surely sink us all.

no Kyoto has already been

no Kyoto has already been interred, let alone dead. It is done - but on everything else - yes indeed.

"World Press Freedom Day

"World Press Freedom Day reminds us that information is democracy's oxygen"

(headline in today's Guardian.)

And information is poison to those who despise and would work to undermine democracy.

I want to see Harper removed from power ASAP.

Democracy

YES, proportional representation both federally and provincially. Except for Ontario and Quebec no other Canadian's vote counts. The rest of us might as well stay home on voting day.

Dobbin is right on....

Canadian democracy has been sliding down the slippery slope since the early 1980s.

And we ARE suffering a crisis!

The issue is how are we going to start expressing our wrath and displeasure?

Also, I agree with the comment expressed that former Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau was one of the best Prime Ministers in Canadian history, and our memory of his administration makes our loss even greater.

Proportional Representation

All people do in this country is talk about Proportional Representation, but no-one seems prepared to do what really needs to be done.
Forget about the NDP, Greens and Liberals and form a PR party. Make it political by forming a political
party. Support for PR is twice as big as it is for Green initiatives. And there are many in the NDP who would move to a real democratic movement rather than than listen to Jack's rhetoric, but non action on the issue.And there are certainly Liberals who find the option attractive. Then you might have a tent large enough to make it happen.
But forget waiting for these bums to do anything. it will never happen under the current structure.

Stop adulating former PMs and Forget about Prop-Rep

Trudeau was PM when most of us were transparent, obedient, naive and still going to church. It's a much different world now. Money rules. The rich run things. The elites aren't listening.

Also, forget about proportional representation. Remember, STV-BC didn't get anywhere and interest in any kind of electoral reform dwindled and/or was sabotaged by the complexity of the proposal.

Remember Preston Manning talking about genuine reform? People started criticizing his hair and his voice. But if we just listened and tried one or two of his initiatives on for size, we would not be under the mess of the newly reformed conservative party.

Remember John Manley suggesting the monarchy was anachronistic - he ended up surprisingly far off the political radar.

Radical ideas are quickly extinguished, so why waste your energy trying to work out your palatable scenarios? Please save your energy for the huge mess that will ensue in a matter of months. Get ready to meet your neighbour, start building your community resources, stick your money in your mattresses and stock up on essentials.

We are living in a different world. Change will come on its own.

I Agree, But It's Going to Be a Hard Road

I agree with Dobbin that a Liberal/NDP/Green coalition would have little trouble taking power, but I doubt it will happen any time soon. Any party that has a higher share of the popular vote than another does not want to discuss coalitions. That's why the BC NDP did not reach an agreement with the BC Greens in 2009 and why the federal Liberals don't want to talk to the NDP (and probably why the federal NDP wouldn't talk to the federal Greens).

The provincial NDP refused to introduce proportional representation when they were last in power in BC (likely because they were benefitting from it themselves, having beaten the Liberals despite having a lower percentage of the popular vote) and they opposed it when it was on offer in the two referendums held in the past 5 years. Dobbin himself refused to endorse proportional representation in these last two referendums when we actually had a fighting chance to make it happen, so it's a little ironic to hear him calling for federal reform now - having it in BC would certainly increase the pressure to adopt it federally.

Personally, I expect many more people to say "a pox on all your houses" in the next federal election. I think our best short-term hope for voting reform may well come from events in the UK. If they get a hung parliament in their election this week, there will be a very interesting opportunity for the Lib Dems to secure support either for an outright change in the voting system or for a referendum in the next year or so. If the UK abandons FPTP, it will likely suddenly seem much more attractive to adopt PR here. Too bad we blew the chance to be leaders of democratic change, but better late than never.

Timely New Facebook Group

A new facebook group whose time has come. We must use our freedoms before we lose them. Which happens more frequently in the world than one might think.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=230705449729

Harper

I have always wondered why the Liberals did not kill off Harper when they had the chance to go into coalition.
First thing they did was knife Dion. "How dare he! He wants to be PM!" And that was the liberals.
I was shocked. So many people here do not understand parliamentary democracy.
And boy, does harper use that ignorance.
It is Germany of the 1930's all over again.
The party of craven cowardice has let Harper rule for an extra couple of years.
Harper has had so many lucky escapes from his shitty decisions that he probably sees himself as a Man of Destiny.
Gods chosen leader. Now he reaps the benefit of all the signs showing that the "government of Canada" provided stimulus to road and housing developments. How quickly people forget that Harper had to be dragged kicking and screaming into meetings where the opposition FORCED him to provide stimulus.

Directed ballot good, PR bad

With the predictable demise of the complex STV - the average voter has the intelligent and attention span of a Nat - a simple 1,2,3 choice system used in selecting political party leaders all over and in some governments worldwide would be the obvious choice.

Even the dumbest voter should be able to figger that one out.

If 1% of the folks that rightly complain about the Green Party just joined the damn thing, and passed a no participation in elections resolution that miserable blight would be removed forever from the Canadian electoral process. The Green Party consists of a bunch of puerile malcontents that don't work well with others but are in possession of a brand name that environmentally conscious but low information voters identify with. The Green Party, is the most potent weapon in the Neocon electoral warchest and as such ironically the most potent weapon in their efforts at environmental destruction

Check it out I..

I don't think another so-called "centre-left" coalition, which really means "centrist dominated" coalition, is the answer, but... we here can at least take the credit for having raised and discussed this growing crisis of ruling class "managed" democracy for a long time now, right here on Tyee. The crisis is going to continue and deepen, even with the proposed "centrist dominated" coalition of "rightist-centric Liberals" and what really is a "centre", without the "left" NDP, as it has evolved since Tommy Douglas.

Indeed, all you will really achieve is a return to the starting point, two party system, from which the escape has barely begun; the coalition of the right around the Conservatives (Which in my view will, from here, grow increasingly fascistic, as in the US.) and the granted, somewhat more moderate New Liberal Party, which will include the NDP, and possibly The Greens. (Though the NDP is as likely as not to work mightily to prevent that; the inclusion of The Greens.)

No, the crisis of democracy will but continue, certainly without a serious or credible "Left", at least until there is some new, more major crisis within capitalism and its "democratic system" of "managing" things for the ruling class.

But to my mind, the absolute worst thing that could happen, is a return to the two party system, certainly with the players we have proposed here. It will guarantee, in fact, if it happens, and the odds at this point are likely about 50/50, that the crisis will continue and deepen, and move further away from, not closer to the eventual emergence of a true proportional representation electoral system. (From which the NDP types, like Dobbin, in my view, will quickly shuffle away, if they ever achieve this wet dream of theirs, of becoming part of the Liberals.) Though as the crises do indeed grow and deepen, this scheme to stabilize capitalism and its economic system will as well, in all likelihood come undone and fall apart.

CVheck It Out 2...

From previous post...

There is no solution, in my humble read of the tea leaves, to the current and growing crises of capitalism in such legalist, overly formalistic kinds of way. The current period will only, can only, decisively at least, be resolved by drawing in the masses of the citizenry onto the streets, in the work places and institutions of "education" etc., and in the creation of new and parallel challenging systems and institutions of democracy, counterposed to the corrupt and failing ones of the status quo order. (Not unlike in many other parts of the current world.)

I have no time table at this point of course, and in all likelihood, other avenues designed to save the underpinning ruling class system, and not challenge it and its power, will be tried. Some hopes may even be raised for awhile. But the underpinning economic and environmental crises simply run much, much too deep for any such cosmetics. This is just another band-aid attempt to staunch the arterial bleed of the system.

All roads, from this point on, moving into the emerging period, lead to a continuing crisis of the system and resulting social upheaval. It is not so much a matter of what one wants or not, but of the contadictions within "the system" having again matured to a point where they are again demanding radical resolution.

I mean really, check it out. The evidence is accumulating all around us.

- a bit deeper ....

Murray's commentary is good as far as it goes, but is an example of 'inside the box' thinking. As ol Albert said, trying to fix problems using the same tools that created those problems is not something with a bright future.
From outside, we see the bigger picture

Two additional things:
1. PR would be better than FPTP, but only in the sense that one broken arm is maybe better than two broken arms. We need to go a lot further. PR is still only a small step on the way to some kind of real democracy. PR gives *parties* a number of seats more closely related to their vote share - but what real difference is that going to make when all major parties are controlled by a top down process and don't much care what the constituents in any particular riding feel about any particular issue anyway? (the NDP is not that much different) - as long as our system is based on 'choose party A or party B or C' - it is only a very constrained form of 'democracy', with power flowing from the top down rather than the bottom up.
2. You cannot talk about democracy in any meaningful way without addressing the issue of money - money controls everything in a modern society, and thus he who controls the money has pretty much an insurmountable edge in controlling power. Everything is for sale in a capitalist country, including, importantly for this sort of discussion, MPs and the media. And who controls the money in Canada? Not the government - the banks. Private banks create ~95%+ of the Cdn money supply - and, of course, expect interest on that money every year. In a more fundamental sense, a country can hardly call itself 'sovereign' when it does not control its own money, as we most assuredly do not in Canada, with private banks controlling the money supply, and the government running up huge debts and then slashing all non-business-friendly programs in the name of dealing with that debt - when it could and should be using the Bank of Canada to oversee the money of the country. It's a long story, but fundamental to retaking our country - explained in some detail here - What Happened? http://www.rudemacedon.ca/what-happened.html
(2a, I guess - Murray is also a bit history-constrained - our problems did not begin with Harper - the story of the fall of Canada goes back to the 70s, or even late 60s, when the gov decided to make this policy shift of giving control of our money to private banks - the single greatest traitorous act in the history of our country. I'm not exactly sure how deeply Trudeau understood what was happening at the time, but there is no doubt at all that the Mulroney-Wilson and Chretien-Martin tagteams knew exactly what was happening - Harper is just administering the coup de grace to a country already kind of a dead man walking. )

Oh, Coyoteman,

I think I am just about where you are -- however, I believe that though I be a younger dog, I am not born of such a hardy breed: I grow weary in my imperfect flailings at being virtuous. The repeated pattern of humanity leading us back again to a group of people feeding upon as much power over others as they can accumulate in a lifetime and as part of various dynasties is so ...sick! If we are truly sentient beings, how can we defile ourselves for thousands of years - and continue to do so even as we bring the very planet upon which we live to the brink of breaking.

We've had generations upon generations of Matrix Mr. Smiths, and sacrificial lambs and saviours ... and, and bodhisattvian Morpheuses from which to learn, yet we keep the pattern rolling... we're nuts!

On another Tyee article, I just posted Basho's last lines. They seem more fitting here:

Ill on a journey;
my dreams wander over
a withered moor. -- Matsuo Basho

A Coalition with the Greens?

No way in hell would I want to be in a coalition with the Greens.

With the Greens in power everything would have a for sale sign on it if it could generate a single watt of electricity.

Ever wonder why you never hear a Green talk about social justice issues? Because on that file they're fine with the status quo.

An Alberta Conservative for party leader. At least it was an honest choice but I don't see how they'd be different from Harper and Campbell. And truth be told, neither do they.

Siamdave... And Dobbinesque Thinking.

You have done an outstanding piece above generally, with which I very much agree.But especially I appreciate your developing some further, the idea of proportional representation and yes, its shortcomings as a solution to the democratic crisis of the system.

"We need to go a lot further. PR is still only a small step on the way to some kind of real democracy. PR gives *parties* a number of seats more closely related to their vote share - but what real difference is that going to make when all major parties are controlled by a top down process and don't much care what the constituents in any particular riding feel about any particular issue anyway? "

Indeed, to my mind, pr is simply another tacit, unspoken aloud admission of the division of society into classes of people, with competing economic interests and political agendas. It MAY work as a "transition form" of democracy, from the current ossified forms, at some point, but it is not where society really needs to go, I think as well. At least not if the object is the fullest possible development of democracy.

Where we need to get to in the end is, the integration of "democracy", which is really just the management of social and economic affairs, into daily life within the communities, economic and other institutions in which the mass of citizens work and function, and in the determination of especially "economic share", priorities and development or even, non-development. This latter which needs to be taken out of the vagaries of, and the ruling class manipulations and theft of share that occurs within the so-called "free market".

It is in the daily "popular control" of these processes, of economic enterprise and other institutions, that the potential for real, living, day to day democracy for the greatest number exists, rather than in the formal processes of status quo, ruling class manipulated democratic systems, such as parliaments etc.

Which is why I say, this kind of real, ordinary citizen rooted, \day to day democracy runs counter to the interest of all political parties, fundamentally. Which are all, by their nature, elitist institutions. This democracy of which you and I speak my friend, is going to have to be more a consequence of "popular action", on the streets and within enterprises and institutions of society, separate and apart from the wet dreams of all the "professional" politicos in all the parties of the world.

We will need to, as you say, be prepared to step outside the box of Dobbinesque kinds of thinking.

Dozens of undemocratic, accountability flaws

To see the details of all the serious flaws with Canada's democracy, with links to many key reports, go to:
http://www.dwatch.ca/camp/SummaryOfLoopholes.html

Hope this helps,
Duff Conacher, Coordinator
Democracy Watch
http://www.goodgovernment.ca

harper

Great, harper thinks the earth is 6000 years old .... and Pallin think dinasours walked the earth 4000 years ago, these 2 should get together .... the religious politicians scare me the most.

proportional representation

The DR_BC, a BC political party, drbc.ca .... was the ONLY party trying to get a PR system in 7 years ago, we tried like hell to get people to see that it was a better system for voters/taxpayers but the ndp, greens and liberals shot it down with fear tactics ... now look at us, campbell is doing what he wants and doesnt give a damn if it's legal or not. We are losing good farmland for bigger shipping ports and highways for trucks in BC that are being partly financed by the Ontario teachers union ..... !!!, and our homophobic, bible thumping, anti feminist, oil loving PM is running our country the way Bush taught him to .... hell do we need total reform NOW.

coyoteman

Institute a secret ballot in the House? It (as well) will not be perfect, but it will give individual MP's a chance to vote contrary to party wishes without repercussion.

It's not to hard to figure out what P.E.T. knew

RE:...the story of the fall of Canada goes back to the 70s, or even late 60s, when the gov decided to make this policy shift of giving control of our money to private banks - the single greatest traitorous act in the history of our country. I'm not exactly sure how deeply Trudeau understood what was happening at the time...

Trudeau was a highly educated and philosophical guy. It has been common knowledge at least since (the scoundrel) Woodrow Wilson handed things over to the Federal Reserve that America had lost control of its future to the bankers. There is no doubt Trudeau knew this as well.

Appeals to logic or common sense no longer work with people, as we have been conditioned to respond collectively on emotion. Until an effective (ergo costly) propaganda campaign can unite the majority on an emotional issue, we are going to continue to lose the battle against power.

The idea of socialism terrifies more people than it unites. The word has been bastardized by the power structure, much like the words 'peacenik', 'tree-hugger' or 'welfare' have all been sullied. And now 150+ years into modern socialist thought, the people do not realize, let alone accept, that a representative government of the people with a socialist agenda is the cure to the current Corporatocracy/Bankster rule.

trudeau - idealist or traitorous schemer?

Samui - still not sure about Trudeau - yes, things re the money and banks got underway in the 70s for sure, but it is completely feasible that most politicians, including Trudeau, had no real idea of the full ramifications (I am sure the bankers did, but how many people really take now, or took then, an interest in 'boring' finances and economics? - it was kind of a subtle process at first, as far as I can tell from now, 40 years down the road - the implications only started to become clear after Mulroney and Wilson took over in the 80s... ) I still see Trudeau as a kind of 'noblesse oblige' elite - accepting his status as 'ruling class' certainly, but at least someone who believed that the peasants ought to be well-treated, very much unlike the later bankers' puppets, the laissez-faire types such as Mulroney and Martin and now Harper and the gang, who talked a good show but quite obviously believed in a dog-eat-dog Randian capitalism, and f*** the peasants. The lies that started with Mulroney-Wilson about 'stupid greedy Canadians overspent and now must tighten the belts and pay the price!' expose them pretty thoroughly, when you understand the whole scam behind the 'national debt' as I talk about in the What Happened? http://www.rudemacedon.ca/what-happened.html essay..
Perhaps I still have false memories of that time, based on the optimism most of us still felt after the 60s and the dreams of those years, which Trudeau was part of - how far we have fallen since (which is, really, what the essay referred to is all about, trying to understand some of this). History will, I suppose, give us more info about the Trudeau years. If 'we' win, at any rate, as the winners of course write the history books, and if the bankers win, we're not going to get much truth about what went on behind the scenes in those years. Or any others.

coyote - democracy in action

thanks for kind words above - I've written a book called Green Island http://www.rudemacedon.ca/greenisland.html that talks about the way I see Democracy working - it's a long book, kind of an answer to Atlas Shrugged, except on Green Island we understand it is the capitalists who are the real parasites in society, not the workers, and they and their bankers have been invited to leave (they don't much like this, and attempt a little regime change operation with their enforcement arm (who else) the American military - but this time the regime changers get an ass-kicking, which is fun if a bit of a fantasy. Anyway, the chapter in which I talk about citizen democracy is here - The Alberton Council Meeting - http://www.rudemacedon.ca/greenisland/ex/pts-01.html .
Someday.

Democracy would be great

A humanitarian in the mix would be good.
Socialism only terrifies those who haven't had to suffer due to illness, family violense or other losses such as fire etc. Or had an icbc employee lie to them after being hit by a car, thus forcing them to be disabled or the lose of a job = work related accident, not to mention severe sickness. Only then do they understand why we need services that actually help in recovery. We don't need the attitude that a person deserves to sleep on the street or go without medical help. Maybe under-employment is the problem
Those that have experienced the above realize how destructive both harpo or gordo are. When you have trouble eating or finding shelter that is affordable you begin to get a real understanding that it can happen to anyone, and the democracy we count on has been gone for a long time. Government gathers taxes to take care of those who need it - education - medical serves etc - not provide corporate welfare to rich friends

Canada's democracy Crisis deapens

Mr. Dobbins, interesting article, but Canada does not have a democracy.

siamdave and others...

I shall indeed check out these web sites you provide links to. It has been a pleasure having this conversation with you. Hopefully, we shall meet again in these Tyee threads.

Much other good comments here re socialism etc, which perhaps another time, when I am not so busy, I can comment on. I would only say, what one calls a thing is much less important than its content. It's the content we have most to be concerned about and win. I don't care if one calls it strawberry jam. :-)

A good day, good people.