Opinion

If Israel Attacked Iran

The unintended consequences are myriad, says top U.S. military leader.

By Murray Dobbin, 22 Mar 2010, TheTyee.ca

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When Benjamin Netanyahu humiliated U.S. Vice-President Joe Biden two weeks ago with his settlements announcement, it was just one more calculated effort to expose Barack Obama as a weak president and to increase his own geo-political power. Unfortunately for the Middle East, Obama and the world in general, the brinkmanship seemed to work. The immediate U.S. response to this deliberate humiliation was half-hearted, weak and confused. The balance of power within the US-Israeli alliance appeared to shift overnight. Obama is the classic ditherer. Faced with someone bold and daring, he simply can't find the moral outrage or courage to stand up for his principles.

The one certain victim of this Israeli move, if left in place, is the peace Obama says he wants.

Rude 'facts on the ground'

By announcing the building of 1,600 new units of Israeli housing in Jerusalem, Netanyahu deliberately picked the one issue that he and everyone else involved knew was a deal-breaker: more "facts on the ground" in the city Palestinians have always insisted will be the capital of their independent state.

Mahmoud Abbas has literally no room to maneuver and cannot enter the so-called "proximity talks" so long as Israel refuses to reverse itself. (The fact that they are called "proximity" talks reveals how fragile they are: Abbas could not be seen to be talking to the Israelis directly.)

But the other casualty here is the increased likelihood that Israel will see Obama's weakness as a green light to attack Iran's nuclear facilities. In the larger scheme of things, this has graver implications than the continued floundering of the two-state solution (a solution which was on life support even before the Jerusalem issue exploded).

There is no independent analysis that suggests an attack on Iran would be anything other than a disaster for stability in the Middle East, for U.S. foreign policy and for that matter, Israel.

Even senior generals in the U.S. military are extremely worried about an Israeli attack -- and about Israel's conclusion that Obama is too weak and indecisive to be a barrier to its ultimate plan. 

'A big, big problem for all of us'

The U.S. chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Mike Mullen, who played a key role during the Bush administration in stopping Israel's plan to take out Iran's nuclear facilities, is even more worried now than he was under Bush. He came back from an early March meeting with Israeli leaders fearing that even his toughest language did not persuade them.

He told the Israeli public that an attack on Iran would be "a big, big, big problem for all of us, and I worry a great deal about the unintended consequences."  He followed up with a news conference in Washington, stating: "I worry a lot about the unintended consequences of any sort of military action.  For now, the diplomatic and the economic levers of international power are and ought to be the levers first pulled."

If Mullen was trying to force Obama to have some backbone, it didn't seem to be working. Obama was seen as too weak domestically to truly confront Israel and invite the wrath of AIPAC, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, the powerful U.S. Israeli lobby.  

The unintended consequences that Mullen worries about are myriad. Some responses are totally predictable. Iran would almost certainly fire its long range missiles with conventional warheads at Israeli cities. It could very quickly make a complete mess of the fragile calm that now exists in Iraq, ruining U.S. plans to extricate itself from a war that is draining its coffers.

Iran could also create problems in the Afghanistan war, which it has been willing to stay out of due its own dislike of the Taliban. That distaste could evaporate overnight -- especially if the U.S. assisted the attack in any way.

Bombing would ignite political firestorm

Indeed, even an Israeli war-game exercise based on an attack on Iran shocked its own designers and the Israeli intelligence agencies. The academic study by Prof. Moshe Vered of Bar Ilan University looked at what might cause a conflict, how long it would go on and its final likely outcome. Vered warned: "The war could be long, its length could be measured in years." 

How might the post-bombing play out? "The means that may be most effective for the Iranians is war by proxies: Syria, Hizbullah and Hamas. (There will be) ongoing and massive rocket fire (and in the Syrian case, also various types of Scud missiles), which will cover most of the area of the country, disrupt the course of everyday life and cause casualties and property damage.  The effect of such fire will greatly increase if the enemy fires chemical, biological or radiological ordnance... massive Iranian support, by money and weapons, will help the organizations (Hizbullah and Hamas) continue the fire over a period of indeterminate length..."

Add to the military consequences for the U.S. and Israel the almost certain skyrocketing of oil prices, and you have the makings of a genuine global disaster in the making.

A line crossed?

Netanyahu gave every indication that he wasn't listening to Mullen or anyone else, indeed in Israel he came as close as any Israeli leader ever has to expressing contempt for a U.S. president.  

But something happened in the meantime that might turn out to be the biggest shift ever in U.S. policy towards Israel. Obama did not fold entirely after all. But it wasn't about Iran -- it was about the Palestinians. It seems that Netanyahu may have crossed an invisible line. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton actually delivered an ultimatum to the Israeli government: stop all settlement activity, including cancelling the 1,600 new units for Jerusalem and genuinely negotiate on all the key issues in the conflict, including the Palestinian demand that East Jerusalem be their capital. 

Where did the ultimatum come from, on the part of a president who dislikes confrontation and is at near record lows in the polls? According to Uri Avnery, one of the most prominent political writers in Israel, the line Netanyahu crossed was the one that had always equated Israeli interests with U.S. interests.

Avnery looked at the testimony of General David Petraeus, the man in charge of all the Middle East (except Israel and Palestine), to the U.S. Congress's Armed Services Committee. Patraeus is perhaps the smartest general in the army and the most popular. He told the committee: "The enduring hostilities between Israel and some of its neighbors present distinct challenges to our ability to advance our interests in the [region]... The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, due to a perception of U.S. favoritism for Israel. Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of U.S. partnerships with governments and peoples in the [region] and weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world. Meanwhile, al-Qaeda and other militant groups exploit that anger to mobilize support. The conflict also gives Iran influence in the Arab world through its clients, Lebanese Hizballah and Hamas."

Avnery believes that the meaning of this statement is more significant than it might seem. Patraeus wasn't just saying Israeli interests are not identical to U.S. interests, he was saying they are now putting the U.S. (and its soldiers) at risk. Avnery speculates that if this interpretation of Netanyahu's brinkmanship becomes the public position of the Obama administration, even AIPAC and American Jews supporting Israel could be quieted: "The Damocles sword of suspicion of disloyalty hangs above their heads. For them, this is the ultimate nightmare: to be accused of putting the security of Israel ahead of the security of the U.S."

The next question

It could still come to nothing. On March 21, Netanyahu repeated that he will not reverse his settlement decision. The next few weeks will tell the story.

As for an Israeli attack on Iran -- that, at least, seems to have been forced to the back burner for now. But a larger question looms: will the U.S. do it instead?

Next column (April 5): Is the U.S. preparing to attack Iran? [Tyee]

Murray Dobbin's "State of the Nation" column now appears every other Monday in The Tyee and on Rabble, and he also publishes articles on his blog.

50 Comments:

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  • Rhea

    2 years ago

    Turn off the cash taps!

    If Obama had any guts on this, he'd tell Netanyahu to drop the plans to push more settlements out or the US would immediately pull the billions of dollars in "aid" that it sends to Israel. Money talks pretty damned loudly.

    One of the major but rarely discussed reasons that the Mideast conflict continues and that Israel's leadership thinks that it's just fine to consider stupid stunts like trying to bomb Iran (which is basically a move with lots of risk and little chance of success) is the fact that the US is bankrolling Israel.

    Stupid, suicidal and fanatical. In short, typical religious nutcases.

  • Takuan

    2 years ago

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail.

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=121389&sectionid=351020104

  • IranianDude

    2 years ago

    Thanks Mr Dobbin

    Mr Dobbin,

    Israelis are all talks. They will never ever attack Iran; they have been threatning Iran since 2003(violation of UN charters and International law but who are we kidding Israelis believe international laws are not applicable to them).

    The reason that Israel will not attack Iran is very simple. Iran in rightful retaliation will turn Tel Aviv into parking lot. It'll vaporize Israeli society as we know it.

    Israelis are well aware of thousands upon thousands of Shahab III long range missile.

    Israel only 'trying' to get US involved. It ain't gonna happen. US won't fall for it as the did in case of Iraq.

  • IranianDude

    2 years ago

    Not to mention general Petraues recent assesment

    of Israel. Essentially Petraus has clearly stated that Israel is putting AMERICAN LIVES IN DANGERS.

    You know that the genocidal regime of Israel is in a worst shape possible when Clinton, the ardent supporter of Israel, gives Israel an ultimatum at THE AIPAC CONFERENCE!!!

  • shepsil

    2 years ago

    Big winner every time? The Military Industrial Complex (MIC)!

    Just as when JFK died, at this time an attack on Iran would benefit arms sales. I would suggest that Obama is no wimp, but that he must appear that way to avoid being dealt with in the same manner JFK was.

    "JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters" by James W. Douglass, is now considered to be the seminal account of his assassination. "The unspeakable" refers to a talk Thomas Merton gave before JFK's death about what would happen if Kennedy didn't tow the line for the MIC.

    This book shows so conclusively that the CIA and the Military Industrial Complex were responsible for the Presidents death, that there are renewed efforts in the US to reopen the investigation.

    The US is now more dovish than it has been since 2000. Without Bush, Israel is now doing the bidding for the MIC and the paybacks are more settlements and ultimately more arms for all.

  • Alastair Haytho...

    2 years ago

    We cannot rely on rationality from Israel

    It is clear Iran has sufficent retalitory capacity, population, land area and political will to be a significant deterrent to any potential attacker nation.

    Certainly America with such big military facilites above ground and unhardened in Kuwait and other Gulf states will be very reluctant for any more military adventurism.

    On the other hand, Israel is entering a world of restricted manouver, as the backwash from the attack on Gaza and its intransigence at the peace table erode its international credibilty. Israel's defeat in Lebanon and the botched assasination in Dubia have eroded its military and intelligence prestige as well.

    Will Israel be a Samson, bringing the Middle East temple down with the death of all? The Second World War brings an eye opening example of a major modern state acting in an irrational manner. The Nazi hatred of jews led them to liquidate 2,000,000 Polish workers during a wartime labour shortage because they were jews. Let us not even consider the jewish scientific establishment they chased away.

    My point is, Israel may not be restrained by rationality and attack Iran in spite of the consequences because otherwise they may forced by international opinion to back down from their annexation of Palestine.

    Not a pretty picture, but when a state thinks it primary mission, whether to kill Jews or annex Palestine is threatened, they may act in the only way that has a slim hope of achieving their most cherished goals, no matter how slim that hope is.

  • Armistice

    2 years ago

    I wonder . .

    if this is why Harper is pulling out of Afghanistan. Remember Peter Kent saying "a strike against Israel is a strike against Canada"? Maybe because he knew this was coming.

    Perhaps he knows a lot that he isn't telling us - knowing what a pro-Israeli religious nutcase he is, the Evangelical "Rapture" takes place when Israel has its ancient boundaries restored. That's on Harper's agenda, apparently.

    And; I wonder if the hidden info in the Afghan documents has something in it about Israel, or the Americans - or both; and maybe it's something he doesn't want the Americans to know.

    If you're not told the truth, you start to speculate.

  • Takuan

    2 years ago

    if you think Israel or

    if you think Israel or America is going to trust Harper with any intel on military plans, guess again.

  • Takuan

    2 years ago

    would Middle East oil being

    would Middle East oil being cut off really be such a bad thing?

  • Jerry Munro

    2 years ago

    The failing master and the junkyard dog 1...

    There were predictions back at the start of the US Empire invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, signalling its most major push for imperial control over the entire Middle East, coming from both Middle Eastern and Western geopolitical scholars who were somewhat more objective, that before this adventure was over, the entire Middle East would be in flames. And it still looks like this will be the final scenario, in my view, if not played out in quite the way that was envisioned back at the beginning. (As so often happens in real life.)

    And what has changed the way the outcome may very well play out is, the increasing evidence of economic and overall decline and loss of will, on the part of the US Empire itself. It is, in fact, as I've noted here before, and as we speak, now already desperately engaged in trying to find a way out of its own Endless War morass, in a way that will at least save it face. Always the last desperate act of the Bully just before his defeat at the hands of his victim, whom he has seriously underestimated, even ridiculed for his "unmanly" capacity to resist. ("He won't even meet me out on the open field of battle, but where I am, he is not. He waits always in the shadows, to catch me when I am not looking" :-) lol.

    But the new danger in the piece of course, is the "mad" junkyard dog of the hereto Master, who sensing his Master's weakness is evidencing the early warning signs of being prepared to bite the hand that has fed and sustained it. This mad dog being Zionist Israel, who has broken the leash-, the leash that has to here restrained it, as only an unspoken threat. (Though the Arab states that are its neighbours, know well the sting of its bite from past attacks.)

    Continued next post...

  • Jerry Munro

    2 years ago

    The failing master and the junkyard dog 2...

    Continued from above...

    And beware this particular junkyard dog, for its worst nightmare is beginning to come true: It alone in its neighbourhood, to which it is really a foreign interloper, and deeply hated for its mad dog behaviours toward its neighbours, but by whom it is outnumbered by many, many multiples. And there ain't quite nothing like desperation and fear, backed into a corner, where the threat really is real enough, to produce last desperate acts. And this particular mad junkyard dog, no longer able to be restrained by its master, prepared to bite the hand that has fed it, is, unlike the dubiously nuclear armed Iran, certainly armed with nuclear teeth of mass destruction. (Which has never been perceived to be a contradiction to the "non-proliferation" empty talk of its US Empire Master.)

    The Middle East especially, but also the entire world is approaching a potentially very dangerous place in time and space here. There is an increasingly urgent need to shut down the Zionists. (Fortunately, there are signs, if not already too late, that increasing numbers of more rational Jews are aware of the danger as well, and prepared to act themselves against this Mad Dog Zionist state.)

    Even I, an atheist, acknowledge that at least an Armageddon-like scenario may yet play out on the Plains of Megiddo. (Which is apparently actually a hill. :-) What did you expect from religion?)

  • Fish-counter

    2 years ago

    I love the Israelis, NOT!

    They already DID bomb the Iraqi nuclear facilities of course and they will hit Iran if they feel like it. I admired Israeli strategy in the 1967 Six-Day War. Moshe Dayan was an excellent poster-child for military genius.

    Since the invasions of Lebanon and Gaza, they are at the bottom of the human heap in my estimation. The turning point was when they shelled the U.N. observation post in Lebanon, killing four U.N. soldiers, including one Canadian. "We didn't intend the shells for the observer post" said the officer in charge.

    That comment is worthy of any Nazi officer at Auschwitz and the actions of the Israelis in building houses across the West Bank and now East Jerusalem is comparable with the "Lebensraum" policies of Nazi Germany. True, the scale is much, much smaller and much less dramatic than a blitzkreig but the end result is ethnic cleansing, otherwise known as genocide.

    Israel is the spoilt child of the Middle East. When all is said and done, they are ultimately all arabs and they will never, ever get on well with their neighbours. It wouldn't matter a fig if they didn't have an estimated 100-200 nuclear weapons. The U.S. should never have allowed 200 tons of yellowcake to go missing. That was careless.

    Today, Israel ranks with North Korea in the toilet-bowl. Too bad we can't flush them away, much as we wish we could.

  • IranianDude

    2 years ago

    Armistice

    Harper and the rest of those Jesus freaks are just lapdogs.

    Just like most Canadians, no one in the right mind take them seriously. Many of those imbeciles actually believe world is 4000 years old, folks back then rode dinosaurs and Jesus had blue eyes and blond hair.

    Do you think Barack Obama and general Petraues would give a rat's ass what these morons think?

  • Kam Lee

    2 years ago

    Where this madness really started...

    Maybe a history lesson is in order. This link enlightens all, I believe.

    http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/terrorists.phtml

  • ursus

    2 years ago

    China is doing more and more

    business with Iran and the Russians also have an interest in protecting their business with Iran, I think the U.S. should be very concerned about Israel.

    "Now Russia, the world's second-largest oil exporter, is discussing with Iran, the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries' second-largest exporter, the possibility of Tehran using the St. Petersburg Commodity Exchange to market its output. Given the shifting tectonic plates of the global economy, the offer, if accepted, may prove to be the harbinger of change in how marketing the world's most fungible commodity is traded, with potentially ominous implications for New York and London's effective monopoly."

    Got the above quote by doing a quick search in google for Russia and Iran Oil business. Google China and Iran doing business to get an idea of the close ties between China and Iran.

    China now has the Shkval-2.

    http://www.defensereview.com/can-the-us-navy-defend-itself-against-chinese-and-russian-military-tech/

  • OilbertaRedTory

    2 years ago

    Dress Rehearsal

    in the Theatre for War - again
    http://tinyurl.com/Exercising-for-war

    McCain to Israel; Get a life:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2v8cuQTVO8&feature=related
    He was only joking.

    But the Oracle of Delphi wasn't joking when Croesus attacked Persia

  • loblollyboy

    2 years ago

    Bunker-buster Bombs Mystery

    Check out this story in Britain's Sunday Herald:

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/diego-garcia-iran-attack-mystery-deepens-1.1014932

    Comment, Mr. Dobbin?

  • IranianDude

    2 years ago

    ursus LOGIC IS NOT YOUR CUP OF TEA IS IT?

    You said:

    "China is doing more and more

    business with Iran and the Russians also have an interest in protecting their business with Iran, I think the U.S. should be very concerned about Israel."

    Where's the logic? of course they're doing business with Iran as they do business with other countries too.

    What you should worry about are these: 5000000000 dollars financial aid Israel receives, unlimited military equipment/arms, guaranteed veto at the UN security council.

    Did you know that Israel has violated more intentional law than ALL UNITED NATIONS MEMBERS COMBINED!!

    Being pro Israel means being pro Zionist which means being a despicable racist since that regime is a full blown apartheid state.

  • Takuan

    2 years ago

    well, yeah, but Iran has

    well, yeah, but Iran has become a fascist shit-hole too. Sure, blame the Brits and Americans, Operation Ajax etc, it really is their fault they ripped budding democracy away from the Irani people in the name of driving stupid big cars and fox hunting. But what we have in Iran today needs to be extinguished. Just as America flushed the Bush-turd down the toilet and Canada (and BC) need to have public hangings of their current lamprey oppressors, so Iran has to clean house. I remember Neda's face.

  • Peter Evanchuck

    2 years ago

    American's cowardly cash and accolades to Israel disgraceful

    As long as Clinton and Obama support Isreal's every move with cash and political reassuances, the Palestinians and the world will never see an end to Israel's aggresion on any country it deems 'dangerous' to their interests. Bombing a soverign country like Iran, causing continued world turmoil, is disgraceful and the American support for Israel's actions is outrageous. May someone protect Palestinians from Israel and the USA. Certainly Harper won't since he does fails in every action to save culture, freedom and democracy here at home and abroad.

  • Revenise

    2 years ago

    Here's Tom with the weather, Part 1

    Iran is no threat to anyone except to the minds of brainwashed politicians and bankers. Israel has over 200 undeclared nuclear weapons at her disposal. With her death rattle and childlike bullying, Israel has become the biggest threat in the Middle East, and perhaps the world abroad.

    Let’s get something straight... if you actually think that attacking Iran is a good thing... seriously, if you really think that sending more young, honorable troops to die for the hunger born of corporations, for big oil, and for the pariah regime that is fascist Israel; if you actually think blowing thousands, possibly millions of innocent men, women, children and babies into confetti for his greater glory... is a good thing. I shudder to think how many of you actually feel this would make this world a better place, I pity you, I really do.

    People flaunt their murderous contempt against our Muslim brothers and sisters as if God himself gave the stamp of approval for the 'Chosen Ones' to lie, kill, cheat and steal the last remaining crumbs from under the backs of the bruised...

    "Iran should be wiped off the map..." People spout and shake their death rattles with no moral compass whatsoever... They scoff about hanging our leadership in Canada... but when it comes to our evil twin they bow before the dark throne, licking the black emperors rotting feet. Fetal and teetering over the topography of their bloodied linens to come... finger on the trigger, and eyes forever closed to the long forgotten beauty that once shined deeply in their now ravaged, blackened hearts…

    Canadian leaders are nearly all now Zionist apologists, hand in glove with mass murdering Zionist crime gang. It is painfully obvious, as we have clearly observed our soldiers in droves continuously coming home in coffins from the illegal occupation in Afghanistan; look at our government’s shameless diversion from the afghan torture scandal, look at our government’s utter contempt for the Muslim populace, the selling of our rivers and our forests, and our leader’s high wire puppet dance for the amusement of Israel's sinking three ring circus of a leadership.

    Our government censors apartheid week in academia, our government signs back room deals with duel nationals we never met on paper we will never read, as they gut, step by step, our once sovereign Nation into a rotting, stinking pool of blood, right before your eyes to see. Yes, we are Canadian! Yes! God bless Canada!

    Harper's attack on democracy and the Arab and Muslim community:
    http://www.thecanadiancharger.com/page.php?id=5&a=324

    Israeli Allies Caucus in Canadian Parliament:
    http://www.opednews.com/articles/Canadian-Policy-The-Jerus-by-Bahija-Reghai-100125-265.html

  • Revenise

    2 years ago

    Here's Tom with the weather, Part 2

    Max Keiser hit the nail on the head on what should done to peacefully stop our evil step-child from the big mistake:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph468FCCO18

    Many people are asking themselves if the Zionist crime gang of Canada is setting the stage Israel’s next 9/11, here, on our own soil. Verint’s stock is flying off the shelves:

    http://quote.morningstar.com/stock/chart.aspx?t=VRNT&region=USA

    Her leadership has exposed herself before the eyes of the world, what she really represents... get ready to take one for the team, because Israel is looking for another victim, and Harper appears to to think Canada is a willing donor.

    Dr. Alan Sabrosky, former director of studies at the US Army War College, and survivor of the attack on the USS Liberty has just gone on the record that top ranking military brass now knows that Israel, and traitors within our own nation committed the 9/11 attacks. Sorry, this is not a test. This is the news story of the century, and you would be a fool not to check it out.

    Top Brass in the US Military KNOWS Israel did 911 (March 22)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMsdNl_13q4&feature=PlayList&p=72987135CDFE8CC2&index=0&playnext=1

    Or, the original Podcast MP3 here:

    http://theuglytruth.podbean.com/mf/web/r693ej/uglytruth22MAR2010rhome1.mp3

    Look, if you want to have a better idea of what is going on with Iran... don't look here. There are better websites and much more information elsewhere.

    Look here:

    http://www.thecanadiancharger.com
    http://www.ziofascism.net
    http://theuglytruth.podbean.com
    http://www.globalresearch.ca
    http://www.whatreallyhappened.com
    http://www.radicalpress.com
    http://www.rabble.ca

  • Revenise

    2 years ago

    Here's Tom with the weather, Part 3

    May God have mercy on whatever is left of your stinking rotten souls. You sold out your country for useless things, but you listen to me, the tide is about to turn, mark my words.

    May God bless, and keep all of those hidden warriors of peace and justice.

  • Takuan

    2 years ago

    and those of us who don't

    and those of us who don't need gods also wish those who do would stop running around killing people.

  • RickW

    2 years ago

    Takuan

    Quote:
    would stop running around killing people

    But only non-believers.........

  • Jerry Munro

    2 years ago

    War and Religious Fundamentalism...

    Wow. We've got a seriously mixed bag of opponents to Zionist fascism here today. :-)

    And though I am of the view that Israel is an illegitimate state, imposed upon the Middle East by the West for its own "imperialist" purposes, using the justification of the Nazi Holocaust as its wedge, which is actually a European not Arab debt owed Jewry, Takuan is actually right, re the rule of religious nutters in many parts of the Middle East.

    Religious nuttery however, is not uncommon almost everywhere, even in the West. Consider the US itself, which on this score, in my view, has more in common with the religious state of Iran (Now being challenged however, unlike in the US.) than is generally recognized. Both have democracies, in fact, about equally "undemocratic", and both being "about" equally influenced by their own particular brands of nonsensical religious fundamentalism.

    Though it is necessary to note on this score, that the near entire Middle East, even in relatively "modern" times, has been under assault by Empire Imperialism from the West since even well before the First Great War.. And these successive waves of imperialist assault have basically imposed a state or condition of unending war on the Middle East, freezing it socially, politically and economically in time, as it did China for a very large time, and even the Baltic states, if to a somewhat lesser degree.

    Israel is but the latest and most seriously egregious and provoking imposition of the West on the Middle East, further destabilizing its social evolution potential. For these societies, in my view, to evolve much beyond where they are at, with exceptions of course, this state of endless war they are in, including Israel, which is a pivotal provocation, is going to have to end.

    Religious fundamentalism especially, acting as a societal "binding" agent, flourishes in conditions of war and extreme threat. Which holds true only to a marginally lesser degree for the US as well as Iran/Afghanistan etc. For the imperialist ambitions of the US ruling class impose a "condition" of endless religious fervour war upon that society too.

    Indeed, we are all increasingly being held captive to it.

  • Takuan

    2 years ago

    http://i.imgur.com/RgxNQ.gif

    http://i.imgur.com/RgxNQ.gif

  • Takuan

    2 years ago

    http://news.meedan.net//

    http://news.meedan.net//

  • OilbertaRedTory

    2 years ago

    Religious Fervour

    comes in unusual flavours:
    http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/index.cfm

    Pro-Palestine Orthodox Jews;
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12cfVKQyrMw

    The Church of Monty Python:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iS-0Az7dgRY

  • Revenise

    2 years ago

    Avatar 4D! Part 1

    Come on, this isn't purely about religion. Read the PNAC document. BTW, I have been meeting more and more open minded religious folks of all walks who are beginning to see Israel for what it really is.

    The religion of the 21'st century is the free market, which only functions with a cheap and plentiful uninterrupted flow of oil… but as we all witnessed in mid 2008, (cheap) world oil production peaked. Watch the movie www.collapsemovie.com for a better idea.

    IAE: Too fearful to publicize peak oil reality
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cif-green/2009/nov/10/peak-oil-fear-economic-establishment

    The stimulus package is already drying up and we are now heading into another oil price spike this summer along with a financial monsoon in step with the rising Canadian dollar that will make 2008 look like a picnic... The people who have and do control the wealth of the world are losing control and fast. They seem desperate to keep people like us divided and fighting amongst each-other while our 401k's, mortgages and resources are funneled into the black hole of their infinite growth paradigm. Weather you are a millionaire, a politician, or Prince Charles, you are being screwed too.

    Debt Dynamite Dominoes: The Coming Financial Catastrophe
    http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=17736

    Also, the Rothschilds and Rockefellers of the day have an inferiority complex where they find an inescapable need to blame cave dwellers for their inability to transition our heard minded civilization off of fossil fuels 30 years ago when we actually had the time and a functional financial system to pay for it. Now civilization is going to mostly die off with their help or not, so these psychos will get a chance to pat themselves on the back for doing such a good job at carving those Georgia guide stones.

    Now the rising/falling Empires of the decade… well, particularly one of them, US&A is gearing up for their final greatest miss-allocation of resources with the gas guzzling resource war showdown.

    Iran’s Natural Gas Riches: US Knife to the Heart of World Future Energy
    http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=18176

    Who is the biggest threat to USA and Israel? I'll tell you a secret, it’s not Iran. China and Russia ring your bell?

    China's oil demand increase 'astonishing', says IEA
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8563985.stm

    The USA has been strategically surrounding China, Russia, Turkey, and Iran with military bases, war ships, and missile defense systems. The NATO alliance is trying to gain strategic control of key pipelines, and trade routes... and not to mention Obama recently sold 6.4 billion in arms to Taiwan. China is pissed... Iran is China's largest oil exporter... you bomb Iran, China will be devastated and fall to shambles very short order.

    I bet this 28% increase is really being held as strategic reserves in the case that the psychopaths do decide to bomb Iran.

  • Takuan

    2 years ago

    http://www.niacouncil.org/ind

    http://www.niacouncil.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1695&Itemid=2

  • OilbertaRedTory

    2 years ago

    With friends like these ...

    http://tinyurl.com/ExpelMossad

    Counterfeiting allies.

  • Jerry Munro

    2 years ago

    Religion and its nutters in context...

    Revenise complained, "Come on, this isn't purely about religion."

    Of course it isn't.

    And I think most of us know, even this atheist, that there are religious folks, and there are religious folks. Just like there are non-religious folks, and there are non-religious folks.

    But nuttery is not unknown amongst some elements of religious folks either, regrettably. Just listen to the religious loonies in the US, especially in its senate and congress, and having tea parties. (Which doesn't mean we don't have them here as well. We're just generally better, I think and hope, at ignoring them. :-)

    The context in which we are discussing religious fundamentalism however, in the Middle East and no less the US, is a very particular one, where it can't be ignored. It's so in everyone's damned face, there and here.

  • IranianDude

    2 years ago

    OilbertaRedTory

    Miliband is an idiot just like his boss Gordon freaking Brown. If he had an ounce of decency, he would have send Israel's ambassador back to Israel.

    In the meantime, I still think Stephen Hubris should supply unlimited number of Canadian passports to Israelis thugs i.e. Mossad.

  • IranianDude

    2 years ago

    So looking forward to reading Prof Finkelstein new book

    "This time we went too far."

    http://www.orbooks.com/

  • RickW

    2 years ago

    Coyoteman

    Religion is merely the window dressing. The real conflict is over water:
    http://www.passia.org/meetings/2005/Andy-Rowell-Meetings2005.htm

  • IranianDude

    2 years ago

    Most members of Israel lobby both in Canada and US

    are classical fifth column among us.

    Legally speaking they could be charged with treason knowing that their actions are are putting the interests of a foreign nation ahead of their own and thus putting our troops around the world in serious danger.

    These people at best have dual loyalties less to their own country more to the genocidal regime of Israel.

    Israel lobby is nothing more than a cesspool of hatred, hate speech, ethnocentrism and full blown racism.

  • Revenise

    2 years ago

    Avatar 4D! Part 2

    /revenise slaps Coyoeman with a salmon

    I always get a good chuckle when people pull the “anti-Semite” card, I guess they just don’t get the beauty in seeing a Jewish man and his Rabbi dancing hand in hand with his Muslim brothers.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uEK7zaMEBg

    I have deep respect for both religious and atheists from all walks. After all, we are all human beings who share this sacred space and I often find myself asking, what is the point?

    Throughout history the powers that be have thrived on and funded divisions and wars from both sides, and we often indulge in them ourselves… as you saw in the movie clip above, the Palestinians and the Jews lived in relative peace before the inception of Israel’s illegal occupation. Religious people from all walks are waking up to Israel’s criminal agenda in spades.

    Unlike the biased western pro Zionist media, we have NO IDEA what the religious community of Iran is really like. In Iran there are around 25,000 Jews living in peace with the Arab community. In fact, their freedom of speech scenario is surprisingly similar to Canadians, they have about the same religious freedoms that we do with our current regime in Canada.

    Iranian Jews protest against Israel
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZZhwHTUuS8

    Iranian Jews to Israel: Our National Idenity is Not for Sale
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA7yz2vciGk

    GORDON DUFF: U.S. TELLS ISRAEL: “YOU ARE UNDERMINING AMERICA, ENDANGERING TROOPS”

    Unofficially, Israel has moved to the top of America’s “terrorist watch list” and is now drifting toward “evildoer” status, not only by the White House but, more broadly, through top defense officials who now perceive Israel as a threat to the United States.

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/03/16/gordon-duff-u-s-tells-israel-you-are-undermining-america-endangering-troops/

    IranianDude says:

    “In the meantime, I still think Stephen Hubris should supply unlimited number of Canadian passports to Israelis thugs i.e. Mossad.”

    'Iranian'Dude: I’m glad I decided not to get a passport. Unlike the Brits and Dubains, I’m sure Harper would be very happy to take up your suggestion, and he probably already has. Israel gets her next false flag, and gains her illegitimate excuse to rape, plunder and kill Iranians for their resources. Israel must be desperate to get her next false flag together real soon, so your suggestion seems plausible and I marked your words. The intelligence community of the world is fed up with Mossad’s arrogance, and I have faith that with this tsunami of awakening happening right now they will no doubt expose and rid any iota of Mossad false flag operations in our country.

    BTW, Jason Kenny removed his makeup and posted a video response to our discussion on Youtube… check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcwQ5sKUmEY

  • vera gottlieb

    2 years ago

    If Israel attacked Iran...

    ...then the entire world is facing the very real probability of WWIII starting. China and Russia are not going to stand by idly and will enter the melee too. Is humankind going bunkers?

  • alive

    2 years ago

    so, now you know.

    Well the underlying reason may well be water (or oil), but one thing is for sure: every conflict we have is driven by religious nutters!
    The why is simple, stupid people flock to religious leaders to get some guidance in a world where they do not understand what is going on.
    Unfortunately those same religious leaders are for the most part corrupt and not as world-wise as they try to appear.
    If this is ever going to end, we need to counteract religion, period!

  • Takuan

    2 years ago

    wikileaks

    seems to be under attack. Why now?

  • IranianDude

    2 years ago

    @vera gottlieb

    Neither Israel nor US don't dare attack Iran. Putting aside the very certain fact that Iran would grind Israel into pulp in half a day and would most certainly start a coordinated asymmetrical war with the US globally not just in the Middle East, Iran would shut down the strait of Hormuz IMMEDIATELY.

    Three years ago, The Economist suggested that if strait of Hormuz where 90% percent of world oil tankers go through is shut down -- albeit for few hours -- the price of oil would hit $400 INSTANTLY.

    Now do you think in that scenario, any I repeat any insurance company would write a meaningful policy for the said oil tankers?

    World wide massive depression would be GUARANTEED.

  • Takuan

    2 years ago

    if you are already rich, who

    if you are already rich, who cares about a depression?

  • Revenise

    2 years ago

    Slow Motion Suicide

    The ship is going down and there is nothing these ziosaurs can do to stop it. When smoke clears, not even the richest of the rich will maintain even a fraction of influence or power which they currently struggle to maintain. When she sinks beneath the waves, and the final sigh of their hour evaporates into the heavens, I will be fast asleep in my broken lighthouse, dreaming of the new world to come. Why so many useful tools choose to go down with their captors is beyond me. Perhaps they imagine their best interests are at heart, well they are not. When all is said and done, their cowardice regret will dribble silently down the empty sockets of their sunken faces and freeze upon the windowsills of their hollowed chests. Honorable Individuals within the world community, the military, and intelligence agencies abroad know exactly what this gang is up to and where their loyalty stands… No matter how compromised a lot of the players may be, when the ship goes down... they’ll see, deep down, they’ve got nothing to lose… and much less to gain in bowing before the cockroaches of the day.

    In my previous post, I provided the wrong link to the Dr. Alan Sabrosky podcast, here is the proper link:

    Top Brass in the US Military KNOWS Israel did 911, original Podcast MP3: http://theuglytruth.podbean.com/mf/web/gtvb38/uglytruth15MARCH2010sabrosky.mp3

    and the podcast page:
    http://theuglytruth.podbean.com/2010/03/14/the-ugly-truth-podcast-march-15-2010/

  • Takuan

    2 years ago

    I guess Afghanistan is

    I guess Afghanistan is important for the plans for Iran,
    http://file.wikileaks.org/file/cia-afghanistan.pdf

  • Revenise

    2 years ago

    Mr Dobbin... Thank you. We

    Mr Dobbin... Thank you. We will see you next month!

    http://jancikradionetwork.com/visible/f2f-visible.090927.mp3

  • Takuan

    2 years ago

    http://www.wired.com/dangerro

    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/03/e-bomb-awareness-day-grab-your-tinfoil-hat/

  • Takuan

    2 years ago

    http://www.sinfest.net/

    http://www.sinfest.net/

  • happy

    2 years ago

    You think?

    Quote: "Putting aside the very certain fact that Iran would grind Israel into pulp in half a day..."
    said the IranianDude.

    Yet they spent eight years at war with Iraq and gained nothing. OK then. Half a day it is....

  • Revenise

    2 years ago

    • Were going to live more

    • Were going to live more simply. Were going to treat each other more kindly. Were going to forgo killing each other at the drop of a hat, in the name of my god is better than y our god, and my ideas are better than your ideas. Were going to learn how to solve our issues, short of conflict, violence, and the way weve been doing it forever the law of the jungle. -Dr. Edgar Dean Mitchell Ph.D. Conversations on the Edge of the Apocalypse (Pg. 64)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCwacIkHbD0

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