RCMP

A billion? For one building?

Whitecaps stadium proposal

I wonder if Herbert's ideological allies on Vancouver's city council have asked themselves why they shot down the Whitecaps's proposal for a privately built stadium on privately owned stadium?

For much less money, UBC's Thunderbird Stadium could've been refurbished for the Lions, and the site of BC Place used for a new St. Paul's hospital.

Approaching the cost of the Dallas Cowboy Stadium

A friend gave me this perspective:

Let’s figure how much this new roof really cost as, until now, no-one seemed to want to question the lack of audits or accountability.

Cost for preparing the roof for the Olympic ceremonies - unknown as the figures were never revealed. Given it took more than a year we will suggest it was between $50 and $100 million.

Stated amount for the subsequent “new roof” $572 million.
It must, however, be noted that for 2 years the construction was between 12 and 16 hours per day.

If labour costs are 30% of the construction costs we could calculate that labour costs were estimated to be $172 million. But overime would increase that considerably. After 8 hours overtime would be either time and one-half or double time (and there may be increases to this after a minimum number of hours). So working between 12 and 16 hours per day means 72 to 96 hours on a six day week. Overtime would be 32 hours times 1.5, or 48 hours pay on the low end, or 56 times 2 equals 112 hours of pay on the high end.

So the worker would get 88 hours of pay per week on the low end and 152 hours of pay on the high end. labour cost estimates would become far more than 30% of the cost. It would be 2.2 times the cost of $172 million (88/40) or $378 million on the low end and 2.8 times (112/40) or $482 million on the high end. Of course, construction workers don’t work long at merely time and one-half, so the estimate must be much closer to the high end. Regardless the construction cost has risen from $572 million to somewhere between $778 million and $882 million.(labour costs plus the remaining $400 million on non-labour costs).

A final cost borne by someone was the 12 hours per day of repairs to the leaky roof which went on until this October suggesting the original job was not quite done right. Perhaps by a company with limited experience in this area but good political connections.

Now our $572 million roof turns out to cost between $828 million and $982 million. This assumes labour costs are 30% of the total before overtime. Can anyone provide a breakdown of an actual labour percentage in the original estimates? A better researcher could discover more.

NB- The best stadium in the world is stated to be the new Dallas Cowboys Stadium which cost $1.2 billion. We seem to be awfully close to that cost and way behind in the quality of output.

They shoulda just duct-taped

They shoulda just duct-taped the old roof.

Cost: $1.65

@Frank

http://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/biens-property/nouvelles-news/frpdgrc-rcmpprpfs-eng.html

I worked on this job for a year. We repeatedly reinstalled work four or five times over. Sometimes they dedcided to change the insulation in walls, sometimes they decided to redesign entire floor layouts. It was designed on the fly, a complete boondoggle.

tharnston, you are right,

tharnston, you are right, check to see who campbell`s buddies were at the time, J. Poule, kewitt, pattison,

Boondoggle

First of all, was this project put out for bids and if so who were the other bidders and what were their bids.
There you go, 2 projects (e-services and stadium roof), charge them to the Liberal Party and the deficit would be just about wiped out.

The words "Business Plans"

The words "Business Plans" aned "BC Liberals" shouldn't be on the same piece of paper as they wouldn't know a biusiness plan if it hit them on the side of the head. They just start something and the costs go up and up and up

And critics of the NDP still

And critics of the NDP still bring up "fast-cat fiasco" don't they? Hell that's just a drop in the bucket compared to the screw-ups this group of bandits has done. How about the convention centre too; that was one big fuck-up and not too much negative press on that issue is there?

While we're at it about the

While we're at it about the Liberal's fuck-ups; how about the 4 ferries that were built in Germany and of course we (BC) borrowed the money from German Banks. Oh no, we couldn't build those ships here and finance them ourselves could we?

The most interesting part of

The most interesting part of these government coverups is when they try to discredit the accounting system of Attawapiskat etc. while selling the public a long string of lies about their own secret bookkeeping rackets, like the claim that the F35s would cost $15.billion instead of $45.bil which is the real figure.

And the list goes on and on, while the sucker public laps it up because all this crap comes from "fiscally responsible conservatives", who have, and are piling the biggest, irrepayable debtloads on the whole world, while pushing obscene profits into the pockets of crooks.

We don't even know what the warranty time is on that roof.

Ed Deak.

The way we are??

If you were a politico would you bend over for your complaining constituents or some fat cat who treated you like a king? Money talks and conservatives have more money than others for a reason.
Until the public becomes more educated and ensures that auditors and others are in place to keep an eye on the money it will continue to flow to 'friends'.
The Tyee is a good education source but the mainstream media still calls the shots and still defends the indefensible.

and the roof leaks

At a recent concert under this roof,I was distracted by fellow audience members trying to find a spot to sit or lean where water was not dripping on their heads. Made me wonder about the thousands of homeless whose heads would be much drier if even a fraction of the cost of this roof had spent on their welfare. Oh, but they don't pay for Liberal election campaigns do they? On a slightly different note, I love how the libs are acting like they give a damn, now that we, their bosses, are going to interfere with their scam by voting them out. Then again, I thought they'd lose last time. I didn't think Canadians would give Harper a majority either. Not exactly batting a 1000 here. Where can I buy an umbrella that's good to use indoors? My classroom ceiling is leaking too, at this moment in fact, right on my students' heads (not old enough to vote, ya see?),and this very expensive building is only 10 years old. Somebody get cristy a sponge. Come May, she's gonna be out of work, or maybe that argument doesn't, uh, hold water. I hope it does though.

This is all about the company more than anything

Much like the Olympic Village, this is about companies seeing a chance to gouge the taxpayer, so they do. Why don't we have a "get tough" on crooked construction companies movement?

jamez

Whenever either repairs or new construction is needed, the people responsible for selecting a firm and a bid, face the ultimate challenge; because they are not skilled in the trades involved.

This happens regularly in strata buildings, even when it is "managed" because even the manager has limited experience.

When it is deemed necessary to hire a consultant to give advice, he is invariably selected from a group of ex-builders, who still have strong ties to the industry.

So, "get tough" is not that easy jamez!

What would be good was if warranties were worth the paper they are written on --- but we have seen only too often that an offending firm simply declares bankruptcy and re-appears with a new name the next day -- problem solved!

The idea of a security deposit, large enough to solve potential problems should be mandatory -- money that is there, bankruptcy or not!

Really?

Why do you people comment on something you obviously know NOTHING about. I fully understand that the semi-honourable member wouldn't understand the realities of projects, their financing and their related timelines. I mean, why would he? It's not like we pay our MLA's enough to attract the best for the job, so we get the likes of Mr. Herbert. As for the rest of you...let me break it down for you. The $100 Million figure was an ESTIMATE, at the earliest stages of the project. I'm sure you all know that an ESTIMATE is a totally different thing than a BUDGET, do you not?

Think of it this way:
You're thinking of renovating your kitchen. Your at your local hardware store looking at stuff, and maybe you come up with an "estimate" to do the work from totalling up some costs, and ballparking the labour. Then, you go out and get some real quotes, which turn out to be higher than your "estimate". Surprise, surprise (happens every time, doesn't it?), then you select a contractor (I hope you didn't select the cheapest one - always costs you most in the long run), and as things progress, there may be some previously unknown issues in your kitchen that result in increased costs, and what happens in the end, the difference in price between your finished job and your initial estimate are usually vastly different. Why should any other project, particularly a major project such as this, be any different?

Post Turtles

While suturing a cut on the hand of a 75 year old farmer, whose hand was caught in the squeeze gate while working cattle, the doctor struck up a conversation with the old man. Eventually the topic got around to Politicians and their role as our leaders.

The old rancher said, "Well, you know, most Politicians are 'Post Turtles'.''

Not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked him, what a 'post turtle' was.

The old rancher said, "When you're driving down a country road and you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a post turtle."

The old rancher saw the puzzled look on the doctor's face so he continued to explain. "You know he didn't get up there by himself, he doesn't belong up there, he doesn't know what to do while he's up there, he's elevated beyond his ability to function, and you just wonder what kind of dumb arse put him up there to begin with."

Best explanation I've heard yet.

BC Oblivion Corp

They never said the bread and circuses would be cheap.

what complete waste!

First off, "real" football is played in the open on "real" grass in all kinds of weather.
Secondly, the sprawled out design of this stadium leaves you wondering where the hell you are. The field is so far away you can see the curvature of the earth!
And finally, as if the whole thing isn't bad enough, at night they have to light it up like the cake at Liberace's memorial!
A complete waste.

Realist?

Seriously? You're suggesting that a hundred million dollar bid went 5 times over budget because the contractors couldn't nail down firm costs? While hanging around at the local building supply?

I think you might want to come in out of that coastal rain.

More costs underestimated and benefits overestimated

This is not the first time David Podmore has been involved in questionable cost estimates. Podmore and his team were responsible for coming up with 2010 Olympic venue estimates which records show were well off the mark.

Having been in the custom

Having been in the custom manufacturing, contracting business for some 50 years, where every job was different without precedents, I've lost my shirt on many jobs where I either underestimated the costs, or something unforeseen came up.

On one job I remember, the customer, Woodward Stores, asked for a breakdown. Somehow I missed one item, as I wrote a breakdown and they deducted it from the overall price I gave. The list is endless, when the cost of materials went up during the work, etc. and I had to pay through the nose.

When you give an estimate to a customer, unless there's an escape clause, you do the job, win or lose. Period.

Ed Deak.

These days Ed...

...no small contractor has a hope in hell of bidding on the huge contracts the government puts out to bid. They have this notion that work has to be consolidated to get a better price. What that does is limit the work to a few large companies who also contribute to party coffers. It is considered 'good business" Then the contracts are written to have so many loop holes that it really is no better than "cost plus". That is the expectation when they bid on work and their friends the liberals decide who it is awarded to. BC Liberal policy is always to protect the business from heavy losses and they will find a loop hole to drive the contractors truck through. For them it is then not a business friendly environment and we can't have that.

When you are a big fish, you get to play by different rules.

Observation - Numero Uno

Prior to the Olympics in 2006, Harry Bains, NDP Olympic critic, chastised the BC government for not spending the money to have the BC Place roof replaced!!

Obviously, the time-line was too tight leading up to Olympic opening ceremonies and it was deferred until after the Olympics.

Then there were calls by many others to build a completely new stadium at a minimum cost of ~$1.2 billion.

At that time, things were still in a rough preliminary stage in terms of roof replacement cost estimates.

In fact, PAVCO did ask for tenders for replacing the existing inflated roof from the only 3 firms in the world that build air-supported structures — Bird Air, Fabri-tec and Hi-Tec. And they also received those bids - likely in the $100 million+ range for a similar roof.

Later in March, 2008 PAVCO was still considering a number of other options: an identical inflated teflon dome, a rigid covering, a fixed fabric roof, a retractable fabric roof, or one with an open centre.

Since BC Place was constructed to support an air-supported roof, moving to a new roof system would also require structural changes/upgrades, including "beefing up" existing support structures.

Said upgrades were required due to the existing structural compression ring.

Then in May, 2008 it was decided to move from a simple $100 million+ air-supported roof replacement to the much more expensive retractible roof option.

Even then in May, 2008 a cost estimate was still uncertain. PAVCO's David Podmore stated:

"We have about five months of engineering and detailed work to do to get to the point to give you a budget that will be a fixed budget for this work."

And later the project scope increased from gutting the interior, inclusive of the then existing seating, to the addition of a new Jumbotron Board amongst other bells and whistles.

Don't forget that that approved budget also required the matter to go out to tender. The bids received after tender represent the true cost of upgrades/scope creep.

PCL Constructors was the winning bidder. One of its sub-contractors, Structal (Canam Group), went over budget to the tune of ~$25 million but they had to eat that amount themselves.

So PAVCO's fixed budget, after bid acceptance, was in the amount of $563 million - including "construction reserves” and "contingencies". The final project figure was actually $514 million.

To put things into further perspective, the new Dallas Cowboys stadium was originally forecast to come in at $650 million. It actually came in at $1.3 billion.

Expensive and complex public venues - no doubt about it.

Observation - Part Deux

The stadium was opened in 2011. So why is the NDP's Spencer Herbert bringing this up now in 2013? It's not that hard to see what transpired. Is he playing dumb politics perhaps? Hebert has never came across as the sharpest knife in the drawer either.

The NDP's Herbert was the same guy who opposed the renaming of BC Place when it was first proposed because "we don't want a public facility (BC Place) named after a corporation". Yep.

Sky... You're right. Large

Sky... You're right. Large companies, especially in the building and roadbuilding rackets, have sometimes dozens of lawyers, whole floors of them, employed solely to break contracts, sometimes written so that they can be broken, making the whole bidding process a farce.

The Coquihalla Hwy was a good example.

Ed Deak.

Guess the old switcheroo

Still works. The billion dollar BC Rail theft traded for a new stadium roof investigation. Stupid rubes will STILL fall for it ten years from now when the unconcluded Roof-gate gets crowded out with yet another new one.

Apples and Oranges - RCMP Building is a PPP

The RCMP Building in Surrey is a PPP, a public-private partnership and the $ figure quoted is for design, build and operate for 25 years. In 2008, with much of the world economy tanking, large foreign construction firms arrived in Canada and the pool of competitors went from about half a dozen to twenty or more, practically overnight. Dig around, you'll find we now have French, German, Italian and other firms building major projects across this country.

Cool hand - What about the Auditor General?

Is Herbert raising the question now because the Liberals have made it clear they want to get rid of the current Auditor-General? It seems he's been doing his job too well and embarrassing the Fiberals. This way, an inquiry is underway and his office will have some obligation to finish it.