I was there

My friends and I arrived 5 hours before the game to get good seats and we ended up sitting on the ledge right in front of the Canada Post building about 50 feet away from the cars. We could not believe that the Police or the City had not attempted to tow those vehicles away, my buddy actually had called it when he said that those cars were going to get it one way or another after the game and in the end he was right and that turned out to be the flash point of the riot.

Another thing I noticed was the lack of Police presence in the main crowd at Georgia and Hamilton where in game 6 there was Police moving throughout the crowds, there was nothing in Game 7, zero and I had a good view of the crowd from where I was sitting. The simple fact that there was no police in the area throughout the whole game I think only emboldened the rioters and the cars where right there for the taking, people are going to live out the destructive part of their character structure if there is no authority or social pressure there to stop them.

Question 21

There were supposed to be Molotov cocktails there; why were there no pictures of them?

Could it be there weren't any?

Question 22

Why was the chief of the Vancouver police so quick to blame the riots on Anarchists when there were none visible?

Anarchists are usually, serious looking, young men prone to wearing black. They wouldn't be caught dead in a Canuck jersey.

No folks, those were hockey fans flipping over cars; why pretend otherwise?

number 10 answer

Because Bob, fire guys are not cops and shouldn't be used for crowd control.

Rioters won't attack fire guys if the fire guys don't attack them.

The cops were attacked; well, you can guess why.

RE Question 22

I think because people can't handle the thought of random acts of violence that it had to coordinated somehow.

cool

a designer riot.

Spam, you got to be kidding

Let's at least get the comments sort of right. At least one fireman was struck in the face and the coward who did it then hid in the crowd. The G20 event had lots more cops, plus the army and they couldn't handle the riot there either, and I rather doubt mos of the people causing havoc at that even were half , or worse even before the puck got dropped. Our son works nights in tha are and had no option but to walk past those goons and get a lot of tear gas that was still in the air around 10 PM. Crowd control when there is around 100,000, many milling about taking pictures of what they figure was the action. If the authorities had limited crowds to small numbers, the bitching would have been very loud. I don't envy the cops, fire fighters or other first providers who had to work in that mess. Any yes, I did take training in crowd control and must respect the folks calling the shots.

And another question...

Could it be that someone in power wanted a riot, created circumstances, perhaps even had people on the ground behaving badly to instigate? How else are we going to get the public to support bigger police/ security budgets and more jails when stats tell us the crime rate has actually been declining for years. Well I guess they won't tell us that anymore now that Harper has kneecapped Stats Canada... just askin'... I'm sure this couldn't happen in Canada.

Jerseys

"Anarchists are usually, serious looking, young men prone to wearing black. They wouldn't be caught dead in a Canuck jersey."

I don't believe this riot was started or even fuelled by anarchists. They've become a convenient scapegoat for an establishment who's loathe to admit that spoiled upper and middle-class kids like their own could somehow be involved.

That said, politically motivated rioters do use tactics like this to avoid arrest. Agitators, too, to discredit peaceful political protesters.

During the Olympic protest that ended in clashes with the police I witnessed several black-clothed protesters run from the skirmish into an alley and change into Team Canada shirts. They then came out and disappeared into a crowd. I had a bird's eye view of the incident from the 10th floor of an apartment near Georgia and Broughton.

It's clear, however, from watching You Tube videos and listening to recent reports of those who've been outed, that most of the SCF rioters were young and/or intoxicated adults and teens. I also believe most involved were Canuck fans. As fan myself, that pains me. But this idea that they're not "real" fans is an excuse to avoid responsibility.

On the night of the SCF, just before the end of the third period I went for a walk down Robson towards Denman – away from the DT core where I expected trouble. During my walk I passed two small groups of young drunk males in jerseys excitingly talking riot. I was stopped and asked if I knew where the riot would be by a guy so drunk he could barely stand on his feet.

CREATIONIST

I firmly believe that riots are created. There is always someone behind the scenes who knowingly sets the stage and pushes the limits. This is a great distraction from how the gov't is screwing us right now. The media now has lots of non issue things to talk about. Just look under that shell over there, yes that one. No not that one!

17. Should the federal and

17. Should the federal and provincial governments contribute anything to the City of Vancouver's bills or send city hall an invoice instead? From paramedics to prosecutors, Victoria is shouldering extra costs. Federal taxpayers are on the hook for RCMP and CBC involvement.
=========

The Canucks and NHL should be paying this.

a type of Reichstag Fire episode?

Was the smearing of activists by the cops and media an attempt to set up activists for repression, ie, is the riot in a sense - though not created by the rulers - a type of Reichstag Fire episode?

millionaires incite class warfare

how convenient that all the millionaires blame the "anarchists'--Clark, Robertson, Chu, Gillis et al.

parasite reporters like Mackin, whose livlihood depends on kissing the ass of power and wealth, suggest the army should have been used. So, live fire too, bob?

no surprise the millionaire ownership class is more than eager to be accusers and informers.

the exercise of coercive power always requires a boogey-man

And the REAL question is ...

What kind of society are we becoming?

I tend to like terminalcitygirl's question. Could it be that this is a good excuse (and now becoming a demand?) to create more prisons. As if that would solve anything.

The fact that police did not check people as I read in different comments - it makes me wonder. Why would they check everyone in previous games and not on this one? Strange.

On the other hand even if they checked I don't think they could have stopped the riot.

And I full agree with Dan the socialist - NHL should be paying for the damage!

... and more questions

1. Why do young people feel that the only way to feel entertained if they are piss drunk?

2. Why did people stand around?

3. Why didn't they leave? Is it cool to stick around and take pictures?

4. What's with this desire for disaster? Seeing people posing in front of a burning car and surrounding turmoil I have to think that they are bored out of their mind so they must be craving excitement? Let's ship them to Libya, please!

5. Perhaps we should bring back mandatory military service. At least these spoiled brats - the rioters and the bystanders - would learn a little more respect for rules, property and maybe learn to respect themselves as well.

It is obvious that these brats are bored - never had to fight for anything in their lives such as oppression, food or freedom. Most of them have never voted in their lives. They got everything on a silver plate. No discipline, no respect and most of all no sign of intelligence.

Bring back mandatory military service. Finished high school go and serve for 1 year. No exceptions.

There are plenty of things and places in this country that soldiers can do and help with.

Mostly however the behavior of today's children are the exact mirror of how our society is treating its citizens - without any respect. Children learn from us - all you have to do is look around - politicians are corrupt, have no respect for those who voted for them. Businesses are out just for the money using workers as they please.

We shouldn't really wonder then of our children's behavior.

The real question should be - where do we go from here?

mandatory military service

a society of trained killers, how wonderful... how's that working for The imperial States of America, or our glorious leader's bff, Israel ?

OhCanada

I commented on how the media reflects our values or at least reflects the values of the people at the top of the social ladder. Are the people who rioted in Vancouver destructive assholes? Yes they are, but 294 members of Parliament voted to continue the bombing of Libya the day before the riots without stating any objective goal or debating the legalities of it and was there an outcry at the same level that we see towards these idiots that rioted? not at all. It's because we have internalized the violence that our society visits on the poor, mentally and physically disabled, women, first nations and the people who the government deems as our enemies overseas, the violence has become normal and invisible. But if the violence flows the other way in this case the destruction of private property it's the end of the civilized world and the media will drag it out, make a spectacle of it and beat into our heads over over over again until you internalize the message. It's to bad it takes the destruction of a London Drugs or The Bay or a fully insured Mercedes Benz to shame Vancouver on the international stage and not the fact that it's home to one of the worst urban slums in North America, it's telling in our attitude towards other human beings. The same society that is inhumane, destructive and apathetic towards it's powerless members produces the same inhumane, destructive and apathetic asshole that rampaged through downtown Vancouver and we are a culture built on violence and spectacle what did you expect?

Ounce of Prevention Worth a Pound of Cure

As a Bostonian whose lived in Vancouver for 15 years I am absolutely appalled at the total lack of foresight in this city.

First, no cars should've been allowed in the city. Second, no large screens should've been erected to bring in as many people as possible to certain areas. Third, the cops should've been present at specific areas in the city, and finally, the Vancouver Canucks should've made a PSA or something to discourage this.

The point is, this city has been tainted now and these riot scenes are being broadcast to the world.

The mayor blatantly blamed the riot on an anarchist group, which was clearly NOT the case. It's just one embarrassment after another without any taking of responsibility.

Bite MY fingers Vancouver. You don't deserve another shot at the Stanley Cup until you learn civility and manners.

Oh Canada is correct

Sockeye’s comment above this posting should be required reading for anyone who labels the rioters as anarchists.

The crowds standing on the steps of the Art Gallery (was it?) chanting “we want a riot” are the people who should be charged with inciting……

Now the rioters have what they wanted; nationwide and possibly world-wide attention which is exactly what they were seeking all along. All the forums and chat rooms across the country are alight with folks pontificating to no end “off with their heads” and on and on.

It’s over; time to move on; the only people who want this to continue are the media who are too lazy to move onto real news. This was unfortunate but expected.

Many Questions, Few Answers

Even right wing commentators understand that this was about abject failure to plan at the top. Even after being warned by the police. It's all about money.

Thanks so much Tyee for keeping this topic on point rather then the MSM frenzy of pretending the fans and the public (the majority of us) determine our fate. We don't these day. But we do conform to social planning, or a failure thereof.

"BREAKING NEWS: The Police Were Badly Outnumbered–Gregor Robertson’s Stanley Cup Riot, Christy Clark’s Facilitation, Jim Chu’s Unprepardeness–AND PENNY BALLEM MUST BE FIRED!"

http://alexgtsakumis.com/2011/06/17/breaking-news-the-police-were-badly-outnumbered-gregor-robertsons-stanley-cup-riot-christy-clarks-facilitation-jim-chus-unprepardeness-and-penny-ballem-must-be-fired/

Monday Morning Quarterbacking

As the leading Monday morning quarterback from Boston, I'm absolutely appalled at the total lack of foresight in this city. I knew all along there would be riots and would have mailed a letter to the mayor but my pencil sharpener stopped working, my pens all ran out of ink and my laser printer has a really bad paper jam. I was going to call but my cell needed recharging and my phone was off the hook.

tainted

"The point is, this city has been tainted now and these riot scenes are being broadcast to the world."
It is true that scenes of the downtown Eastside have not been broadcast to the world, in the sense that the mainstream media generally doesn't pick them up and plaster picture and video on the front pages. Never the less, the taint of the DES did and does overshadow the images of the riot - as many others have pointed out - because they are daily, ongoing, and tolerated by the citizens of Vancouver, unlike the riots.

You all can relax, anyway. The head of Tourism Vancouver says that tourism won't be hurt by the riot. And we have learned enough so that next year the NHL will be supplying private armies to play-off cities, and all those with incomes under $50,000. will be banned from the downtown core during game time. We shall also raise the drinking age to 50, or thereabouts. The aftermath scenes - win or lose - will all thus be nicely sanitized and suitable for all to view.

But the real stench in Vancouver will continue to emanate from those who think that a hockey riot is the worst the city has seen.

What this issue really

What this issue really raises is the degree of state planning in our lives, which occurs secretly behind closed doors. The NHL system as it currently exists is really a PPP (Public Private Partnership). Just like NATO, and the oil industry, and Wall Street. Like any non-democracy, these ventures make millions for a tiny few, and exploit the rest of us to do so. When things go bad (as they always seem to do), the public is vilified and blamed. If Vancouver was democratically consulted as to whether or not it should spend millions hosting a massive hockey party (vs investing in public health care, or education etc etc) things would have turned out very differently.

Time to read UBC Prof. Chris Shaw's book Five Ring Circus again about choice in a democracy, a concept that used to apply in Canada.

http://www.newsociety.com/Books/F/Five-Ring-Circus

Better yet, it's time to ask Prof. Shaw if he's up to writing a sequel: this time about the NHL Five Ring circus...

Great coverage.

I don't buy it...

" don't believe this riot was started or even fuelled by anarchists. They've become a convenient scapegoat for an establishment who's loathe to admit that spoiled upper and middle-class kids like their own could somehow be involved." verso

I much agree with the viewpoints of verso, anarcho and others, who smell foul fish in the garbage here... and Vivianlea Doubt.

The "officials" and official media narrative fits too conveniently into the "anarchist" and "all mobs are inherently mindless" Conservative agenda, and dovetails just too micely into their "more cops, build up the repressive State, and more prisons" view of the world and the "Great Unwashed".

I certainly don't buy the "anarchists" dressed in black with masks bullshit, which also has served to hide, at the G20 for example, cop agents de provocateurs as much as it has "anarchists".

The smell of taint is wafting off this entire business, just a tad too much, and too conveniently.

Layers

The instigators in Wednesday night's riots were layered:

1. The Black Bloc/anarchists/leftist radicals;

During the Olympics some video footage caught the Black Bloc running into alley ways in order to change out of their garb, behind dumpsters, into Olympic t-shirts so that they would blend in with the crowd;

2. Another criminal element that intended to loot stores;

3. Drunken rowdies who were egged on;

4. The late teen/ 20-something set with their blackberries/iphones taking pictures of the fiasco unfolding also egging everyone on;

Spoke to someone the other day who attended an Alice Cooper concert at the Pacific Coliseum as a 14-year old circa the early 1980's.

A riot broke out and the VPD instructed the VFD to turn on the firehoses upon the revellers. That did the trick!!!

Nothing like the pressure of a firehouse taking the wind out of one's sails and then getting drenched by freezing water that will quell/ shut down any riot and disperse a crowd.

The VFD shoulda similarly had firehoses strategically placed along Georgia to shutdown Wednesday night's fiasco.

solutions

follow the money Jerry….

This city has a charter. NHL playoff games can be banned by an order in council just like the UFC venue city wide ban earlier……if I was mayor today the ban would already be in place.

Also the Canucks should be forced to play to an empty stadium similar to some of the soccer teams belonging to FIFA were…….

Anyone who had their car torched or their property damaged; does anyone think one of those people will receive a sympathy card from the Aquilini’s(sp?).Does anyone think the Aquilini’s will offer even ten bucks to assist with some of the clean-up? How about the CBC or the NHL; will they pony up for the ill-advised outdoor event?

How about some of the completely biased sports media in this town that ignore all other professional teams to whip up sentiment regarding the Canucks to a fever pitch? Where are they all now?

We have plenty, PLENTY of sports teams that win championships in Vancouver. One never witnesses this destruction; we have won the Grey Cup in yr 2000, the Canadians have won it all previously, so have the Whitecaps. We have many musical and art festivals all around the city; Folk Fest, the Lantern Festival, Fireworks, etc etc.

It seems to me that the hockey in this town attracts a certain undesirable element. Until such time as the teams and it fans clean up their act they should not have the privilege of a venue anywhere in within the city limits.

Same thing happened to Guns & Roses after their debacle. No venue here will accept them.

Why Isn't the NHL Required to Fund Security for Hockey Games?

Heck, if Gary Bettman had to fund security, he could have contracted Hell's Angels, especially for Stanley Cup games. Then we'd see if there was a riot or not........

But then, like any corporation, if the NHL had to fund it's entire operating costs, it wouldn't make any money, would it?

Molotov Latte

For a different spin on this check out my favourite cartoonist. Do it today or maybe tomorrow.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/toon.php

Living in the end times

If it is true that Western Civilization as we know it has collapsed, economically, environmentally, socially and genetically, then these riots are an unconscious reaction to that event. First we deny the event: keep on carrying on, watching sports and so on; then comes anger: we lash out at anything and everything. The unconscious attack on banks, cars and items of conspicuous consumption is an indication that we are at some level (even in a drunken state) aware of the underlying problems with society. Violence is never random, as many news outlets would like us to believe, there is always a means, a cause an effect relationship. Next comes bargaining where we will give up our freedoms and belongings to maintain the state of society because we fear change. Then depression and eventually acceptance. I think different people are all at different stages but I believe the unconscious mind is aware of the collapse even if the conscious mind is not.

Question 21

The real question is why was Mayor Robertson so hell bent on cramming 100,000 people into downtown when the police suggested it wasn't a good idea? Why did he think he knew so much better than they? Maybe it has something to do with hitching his reelection bandwagon to a winning team?

That's where the dog lies buried,

as we would say in my old country.

"people are going to live out the destructive part of their character structure if there is no authority or social pressure there to stop them."

Yeah? Then I would suggest we have 'a problem with authority'. The stopping should hopefully be built into each citizen, as in being civilized rather than barbarian. The endless cycle of transgression-crackdown-anger-more outrageous transgression may, for some, spin out to a whole life of soap-opera-like nature. Cop-hating, bureaucrat-hating, etc. It all has to do with the seven negative messages we receive as young children for each positive one. We get used to the passive-aggressive, or the just aggressive, way of interaction with 'the powers that be' - and the stipulation quoted above comes to pass in reality. There is a whole other way of approaching life, which starts with that no one has 'authority' over you. That is a fiction and a cop-out. As you grow up, you are gradually invited to participate in a social contract, based on that you do your part to make it all work, and you can count on 'the privileges of membership' in return. You make that stick by insisting on the rights of yourself and others under that contract, by all the means that are afforded you under the law, and they are quite considerable. through it all, you make your own decisions. But this is something we must school ourselves into doing. On the day of game seven, my colleagues and I were told that we could leave 'a little early' so as to possibly get home and watch the game. Some of my colleagues accepted that. I didn't. My take on it is that I work under a contract that says I work X number of hours a week. I'll be damned if I consider it a boon that someone tries to re-negotiate it at will, based on some hype about an event that recurs every year and is not mentioned in my contract. Maybe this is where the media hype can be blamed: 'It doesn't get bigger than this'. Yes, it does. The foundations of law and mutual agreements by which we live our everyday lives and can count on each other to do or not do certain things, are a whole Hel of a lot bigger than 'this'. Or else we all deserve the name of barbarians.

Robert Hare, our resident mindmaster, has pointed out that nothing is more likely to send us in the direction of psychopathy than an adverse reaction from parents to behavior that might have earned us praise another day. We need to make sense of our world, and playing fast and loose with the rules, and with our sense of proportion, is the problem. We don't live on someone else's grace in the moment, but on everyone sticking to what we all agreed on, all the time.

"Follow the money, Jerry."

Indeed brother, and an interesting set of observations you have made. Somehow, I never got the "sport or sports fan gene"... and feel like one of the few males that didn't, and as a result, I know very little about sports. Other than what is obvious of course... It is very much, in late stage capitalism, and none more than hockey in this country, a part of the "corporate sector" and culture... where money rules, and before which The State at levels genuflects etc.

And like much of the "corporate sector", especially at the "consumer" level, it creates, encourages and feeds off a particular kind of drumbeat mindlessness.

And just my view, I concede.

Now, I'm one of those who accepts that there are legitimate things in social, political and economic life to get upset about, and raise more than a little Hell, especially in the course of defending one's person, community and interests. but a friggin' hockey game? Sorry, I just can't relate.

But indeed, within status quo capitalism, to understand almost anything, "the money" is indeed the begin and end all, and the raison d'etre at work behind all its cultural manifestations.

But for all my ignorance and disconnect from sports, which I concede, I do know that Blake as well has his finger on the beating pulse at some level... "If it is true that Western Civilization as we know it has collapsed, economically, environmentally, socially and genetically, then these riots are an unconscious reaction to that event. First we deny the event: keep on carrying on, watching sports and so on; then comes anger: we lash out at anything and everything. The unconscious attack on banks, cars and items of conspicuous consumption is an indication that we are at some level (even in a drunken state) aware of the underlying problems with society. Violence is never random, as many news outlets would like us to believe, there is always a means, a cause an effect relationship."

Dorothy, on the other hand, again just in my view, is mostly full of psychobabble poop. :-) Sorry Dorothy... but I suspect you think pretty much the same thing about me. :-)

Dorothy?

I have no clue what you're getting at sorry.

what we have here is Balladarian violence.

This is the type of violence that JG Ballard spent most of his career writing about.

"Consumerism rules, but people are bored. They’re out on the edge, waiting for something big and strange to come along. … They want to be frightened. They want to know fear. And maybe they want to go a little mad."

Telling isn't it.

I don't think anything about you...

but that's not to say I can't, or won't debate the issues with you.

"The unconscious attack on banks, cars and items of conspicuous consumption..."

See, this is where I don't see that these attacks were in the least 'unconscious'. To think through, and execute, the wicking of a car engine, and set the wick on fire, looks pretty damn deliberate and 'aforethought' to me. Also, the one known perpetrator does not fit the angry picture you propose: He actually appears to be a fairly rich kid, with everything going for him, except maybe enough sense of direction, who went into some weird spiritual mode, because he couldn't contain it all - or whatever. I don't think it's all about to collapse; that is wishful thinking on the part of those who think to have the work all done for them. Green apples do fall to the ground in storms, but in order to make passable jelly out of them, a whole lot of steps are required. Keep that in mind.

To Sockeye: that you don't in the least 'get' what I'm saying is a bit of a sock to the eye (sorry, couldn't resist that one!)

What I'm saying is that civilization - you either subscribe to it or you don't, and it's more fragile than most people think. Under the rule of law. as we're supposed to have it in Canada, you can't screw with the rules even in small ways, before some people just don't 'get it' any more. I am, in other words, fed up to the teeth with all this looking for structural authorities or 'systems' to blame. It's up to each one of us to keep it neat, and if we fail to do so, we're responsible and accountable. we're not poor little losers who get 'sucked into the moment' other than by choice. That's what my piece said, and so I hope I have made it clearer for everyone who needed it.

It is easy to blame the police, isn't it?

As a school teacher, I see so many kids babied along by mom (single parents more often than not to win the kid over the dad, of course)! Of course, dad cannot do the job because 90% of the time he is supposed to be bad! BUt, I do see the odd mother defending her kid when he or she is doing the wrong things! They even phone the school board! WHy is the school board not doing anything? No one wants or can deal with the problem. There are not enough consellors in the schools and teachers are overwhelmed with refugees and ESL and LD students in disadvantaged schools, thanks to 10 years of Lib. policies. But, ya, it is the police's fault that people trash a place! It might be helpful if everyone (parents, kids, governments, school boards) would do some real soul searching here with the help of media to find out why the kids trashed it! Were they drunk? Why? What kind of kids are talking about? Let's ask deeper questions, instead of always blaming the authoritarian figure (like dad usually). And, the police did not want to deal with the problem because no matter what they would be blamed ofr doing something.

Right on reality_check

100%agree with you. Let's do some real soul searching. But, most people don't want to do that because then they have to face the fact that they may not have any real lives. They are living a celebrities life and hiding from their own.

As I have mentioned earlier in my post - what we see from our children today is what we are as a society. If we saw anger in this riot ... well... we as society are angry, disrespectful towards each other and plain dumb to stand around and take pictures instead of stand up and do something. There were more bystanders then actual rioters and looters. One must wonder.

As a former teacher here - schools have become the play ground of parents. Teachers have no authority and no power. I left because I had enough of baby sitting and parents telling me how to do my job.

With physical education lacking in most schools, children never learn anything about winning or loosing with dignity or being respectful towards our opponents. Parents spend hundreds of dollars to get their children learn some kind of sport. Most of these clubs have 'teachers' who learned the sport in a weekend course or took a month coaching program.
Totally ridiculous and unheard of in many European countries. No wonder then that the education is just that as well. What can you learn on a weekend course? In most European countries you have to take a 4 year physical education teacher training program and a 2 year coaching program after that so you can coach children or adults. Not in Canada.

We should not be surprised then that 50% of Canadian children are overweight and there is no proper physical education being taught with highly skilled teacher in the subject.

It is through physical education we teach children respect towards each other and towards sports.

The hooligans on the street - looters, rioters and bystanders - had very little self respect, intelligence and perhaps understanding about sport and what is a sportsmanlike behavior.

Yes, Dabido - mandatory military service

"a society of trained killers, how wonderful... how's that working for The imperial States of America, or our glorious leader's bff, Israel?"

That is a bias. Most of the Eastern European countries had mandatory military service. They are nowhere a society today of trained killers.

I believe the opposite happened. Many of my male friends came to a better understanding of what it means to use a weapon, what war actually means. Many of them actually grew up within that year and realized that there is more to life than war. Perhaps their testosterone leveled out and they learned to discipline themselves. Something that most male in North America could learn. Life has become too comfortable for most of them so they are looking for something to do.

Beside the fact that they are also mimicking what is happening in our society today. We became sheep, comfortable in our shallow lives where we buy stuff to feel better. We don't stand up for our rights and don't exercise our power when it comes to vote for something. And we don't understand what is our obligation as a society and as an individual.

So yes. bring on the military service for these spoiled brats. At least they will get in shape and learn some respect. Military isn't about just fighting. They are also used to control riot or help out during natural disasters.

Vancouver riot 2011

The news media started this whole mess. As soon as the Canucks were in the finals the press kept flogging the 94 riot. The references were will we have a riot if the games go to 7. Why else did some people come prepared with gasoling,wrecking bars and lots of booze. The MEDIA wants a riot we will give you a riot. Let's put the blame where it belongs.

Dorothy

The majority of the blame falls on the rioters and what I was getting at in my original post was that the city and police could have taken stronger steps to prevent this, they did in Game 6 then stopped for Game 7 for some reason.

"we're not poor little losers who get 'sucked into the moment' other than by choice."

That's your opinion I'm sure psychologists that have studied crowd behavior would disagree with you. To expand on that, what if their choice was to destroy? What if at that moment they could live out the destructive part of their character without fear of punishment?. What if they are so fucking bored with life they use a little mindless violence to alleviate it? I am going to blame society for producing these little assholes, what do you expect when there are images of violence and destruction beamed into their heads by the media 24/7?.

some good questions here

Along with some good comments. Some of the best comments ruin it at the end when they say "...and this is what the solution is!"

This'll be a long process - there's be no "one solution" that works for every situation. After all, we've a very long history in BC of trashing our best fun events - Sea Festival, Sand Castle competitions, rock concerts, Regatta, - you name it, they've all been ruined and eventually shuttered by loutish behaviour. And once again the Smphony of Fire and even the Gay Parade are on the thin edge of shutting down as idiocy reigns supreme.

No, many of you make good points, and the stakes are high. It behooves us to get the solution right the first time - we can't afford to waste time and huge amounts of money on measures that cause bigger problems than they solve, like mandatory military service. I'ts not a bad idea, but the "results not guaranteed as advertised - check with your doctor first". Europe is a very, very different place than North America, even if you don't think so.

Tom Sandborn contributes here sometimes - he wrote an excellent comment in Friday's Courier.

http://www.vancourier.com/news/Cocktail+booze+machismo+sport+fueled+riot/4963168/story.html

His off-hand comment about the "ersatz" community that sits in for a meaningful life in so many people's lives here in the "Best Place In The World" really says something about how much of our lives we waste on nonsense.

Dorothy and sockeye...

I think deep down you guys are saying the same thing. You both blame society for this behavior - I think most of us do.

But...

I think Dorothy has taken it one step further and I tend to agree with her on this. "we're responsible and accountable. we're not poor little losers who get 'sucked into the moment' other than by choice".

However ... being accountable and responsible is almost impossible to do if there is no 'system' that keeps you accountable and responsible. I say that because not everyone is mature enough and aware enough and can decide intelligently that takes into account everyone in a group or in a society. Therefore we need a system to handle those who are still in a different stage of development. Plus no society works without rules and structure.

Being responsible and accountable requires a mature human being that has reached a level of awareness and can differentiate between being responsible or allowing to be sucked in and then blame life for the failure. That is a typical victim attitude and a sign of a weak and undeveloped personality.

Time for "truth and reconciliation ..."

Perhaps someone has already suggested this? Vancouver would do well to follow other peoples' example and establish a form of a truth and reconciliation commission. Let individuals come forward, express their rationale and regrets for their participation ... and move on.

That would be an affirming message (of humanity) back to the world ...

Oh Canada

"Being responsible and accountable requires a mature human being that has reached a level of awareness and can differentiate between being responsible or allowing to be sucked in and then blame life for the failure. That is a typical victim attitude and a sign of a weak and undeveloped personality."

I'm not saying that they were sucked in, I'm saying that they made a choice to destroy. In the same vein that our members of Parliament just made a choice to be a part of the destruction of Libya, our how as a society we make a choice to destroy the natural world or ship asbestos overseas to destroy human life or as a society to normalize poverty for the powerless parts of it and excess for others or how as a society we decided to steal generations of first nation children and destroy their culture, yes how very "civilized" of us, a civilization worth entering into a social contract for sure. How do you figure someone could fully develop in a society like this? Our society is driven by violence, competition and consumption and you wonder why people lash out in violence? It's built into our social character it's systematic.

this proves Vancouver can have big street parties

I recall hearing that statement over, and over again after the Olympics but was thinking don't forget the billion dollars worth of security to keep it safe.
I was right. It was a first for me seeing the liquor lineups before the game that evening. As soon as the stores doors opened there where people half way down the street and it was like that for the rest of the day.
It is little wonder what happened when jamming that many boozed up rowdy players all in one place.

why do I call the fans players

Because that is how fans feel when watching the game. You can hear the fans shout out moves to the players and howlers when things go wrong. Fans take the game so personally and it makes you wonder if they need a life or if hockey is just another excuse to drink a lot of beer.

Sockeye - I agree and ...

Noted, and I agree with you. As you say, everything is a choice and I still think it is possible to develop as a balanced individual in a society that makes the wrong choices. You did not riot and you seem to be a balanced person. How did you do that?

Your question is "How do you figure someone could fully develop in a society like this?" - I think it is simple. You start to work on yourself and rise above the mediocre.

It has never been easier than it is today for a person to progress and become a better person. The internet is full of information on living a balanced and responsible life. There are self help books, programs and courses.

Again - blaming society is a victim attitude. Society is only as good as the individual in it. Change the individual and society will change.

The choice is up to each person and that requires perhaps a little bit of self reflection and self awareness as oppose to be lazy and just do what the majority of bored mediocre people do.

I also think that there are lot of people who have risen above mediocre - they are the ones running programs that help the environment, animals, young children or youth, they are the ones volunteering their time and etc. etc. I just hope there will be more of them as I think that is how we change as a person and eventually as a society.

Confused

I wasn't there. I only take photographs of such events when a cause lies behind the action. I watched a lot of footage on TV and on the Internet.

The law says that, during a riot, anyone who fails to leave the area after police have ordered people to disperse is deemed a participant and is subject to immediate arrest and possible use of force. At that moment, everyone who stuck around to take photos or video - regardless of their intentions - stood in violation of the law.

City Hall, the VPD and the local media are intent on making heros of those who disobeyed the police order to leave and instead stayed to document or make foolish and often inebriated attempts to stop rioters from damaging or looting property at great risk to their own safety. I understand some of the so-called brave people will receive awards from the city. Where is the heroism in getting beaten up for telling people to stop breaking department store windows? Is protecting a corporation to which one has little emotional connection to at the risk of one's life courageous or just an imbecilic, intoxicated thing to do?

Which is it? Are the people who stayed after being ordered to leave criminals for providing the villains a worldwide audience via social networking websites or are they heros for being brave enough to risk their own health in a futile effort to maintain civility?

I mostly agree with you OhCanada

"You did not riot and you seem to be a balanced person. How did you do that?"

I didn't riot but I did watch from afar and to be honest with you as bad as this is going to sound the chaos was intoxicating and exciting and at least I have the balls to admit that. I quoted JG Ballard earlier because I believe that that quote rings true based on my own experience of the riot, a lot of it had to do with a reaction to the crippling boredom our society produces and the fact that people could live out destruction as a spectacle, they were there not watching through some distant TV screen.

Being a product of a society built of spectacle when one materializes right in front of your face you can't help to want to get in on that, it's no different then people sitting at home living the chaos out vicariously through the news media.

I just finished Erich Fromm's An Anatomy of Human Destructiveness were he makes the argument that our society's social character has a destructive element to it and that social character integrates into the individuals character structure and when conditions permit that destructiveness can come to the surface.

gregor?

ok- the stanley cup playoffs are NOT the olympics, actually, they aren't similar at all. They olympics are a multilateral, multicultural sporting event where the masses are all cheering for different countries, and in the case of 2010, a lot of the patriotism was canadian, american and a large population of european supporters. the policing support was not just the VPD (and associated partners) but was backed by both the canadian and us forces. there would have been ZERO chance that any sort of riot could occur at all (other than a very short lived incident that was scalded heavily). in the case of the canucks, it was all or nothing, and to assume everyone would be peaceful at the thought of a loss is maniacal and foolish. our civic government (and provincial, or lack thereof) needs to take a serious look at how the let this slip through the cracks, considering how plain jane the analysis of the situation was. To think that the population were all going to high five and wait in a transit line is ridiculous. quit living the utopian dream and realize that humans are anxious, and humans are naturally going to be highlighted into mob rule. add the machos the booze and the vigilantism and...
punishing the rioters to the highest severity will help extinguish the desire to participate, but annexing the politicians who are simply stupid enough to not recognize the possibility will do the rest of the population justice in giving us the ability to know that we can happily enjoy "cultural" events en masse.

full moon, alcohol, testosterone, gasoline,

Perfect storm: long days, short nights, full moon, alcohol, testosterone, gasoline, goon hockey, our gladiators lost, disaffected youth, polarized politicks, unreasonable expectations and 100,000 sacrificial lambs. Could have been worse, a lot worse. Cops should be praised for doing best they could given sorry lack of resources at their disposal—are you listening Mme Premier, Mr Mayor?

Something to do

There were only three things to do after the game:
- go home
- drink
- stand in the streets and see what happens

If we want to have large community wide events, shouldn't we plan some things for people to do?
- street hockey/soccer/skateboarding...
- street art
- music/bands/dancing/plays/comedians...

Right and wrong; aside

You may as well ask: why was the weather so bad all year and why are our youth so damned upset over a lousy hockey game?

Another is why is CC bothering trying to meddle into police doing their work? Isnt she worried any more about the hypocricy exposed from not making sure the Basi Boys were punished?

I mean as Superwoman she can do anything now cant she? Reverse taxes, order rascals rounded up and etc?

We owe it to our selves to ask what is wrong with us and our selves? Pointing at youths we always have 4 more fingers back at our selves. What did we do wrong? What is it that we didnt plan for or give to them?

Christy? Christy? Anything to say Christy? Any comment towards the conditions we placed our youth in creating the atmosphere to flouruish for anguish and upsets to seek an outlet in riots? Or are you not judge and jailer as well as treasurer to where money on our youth is spent? I thought casino money went where we said it should go?

As angry as we may be: rioting is for the ahem, impotent!

BUT...1

"..a civilization worth entering into a social contract for sure. How do you figure someone could fully develop in a society like this? Our society is driven by violence, competition and consumption and you wonder why people lash out in violence? It's built into our social character it's systematic."

For this argument to hold true, about this being systemic, the majority of people should be violent, and it should be an accepted norm. The reaction from citizenry in general to the riots does not seem to bear this out. It would seem to me that you would have to look to other places for societies driven by violence, maybe Somalia as it is today? As for the competition and consumption, they have both been with mankind for a very long time and are in no way more characteristic of our society than they were of numerous cultures both past and present. For an example, look to the fact that some rare animal pelts as well as types of seafood are highly sought after by wealthy people in some Asian countries, precisely because they are rare or even illegal, as in coming from endangered species, the idea being to boost one's personal prestige in being able to afford their procurement. There you can talk consumerism. Competition? do you really wish to eliminate that? If no, then where will you draw the limit? That's the hard part. I can tell you that my three youngsters were equally disgusted when Sports Day in their school abolished the blue, red, and white ribbons and gave everyone green ones 'for participating'. It was simply lame. Part of being fully developed is to have accepted that you cannot win every time, and be graceful about it. The NHL are our gladiators, and are dealt with in much the same way the Romans did theirs.

How do you 'develop fully' in a culture such as ours? I think you must look to your parents and grandparents, if you're so lucky, for that guidance. Nowhere in the World can one develop fully without guidance from people older and wiser. And, of course, one must be forever willing to learn new things and ideas.

BUT...2

"Are the people who stayed after being ordered to leave criminals for providing the villains a worldwide audience via social networking websites or are they heros for being brave enough to risk their own health in a futile effort to maintain civility?"

I think they are simply confused as to what is productive and counter-productive. Taxpayers are paying for an ad that tells kids to 'simply walk away from bullies', and the rioters were essentially bullies, so we should practice what we preach and walk away from them. This, incidentally, would also have been in accordance with the law. In my old country, three warnings to disperse in the name of the Queen and the law that go unheeded gives police the right to shoot. I wonder if 'use of force' is a euphemism for the same thing. We should understand that rioting isn't just some passing nuisance but a de facto upset of the lawful order, ergo it is subversive and therefore no joking matter.

I find it revealing that you think the chaos was intoxicating. I just found it toxic, but then I think as one of those who will regularly be prevailed upon to clean up other people's messes.

riot questions

Having just read LArmstrong's disturbing book about BC in the future - the Bone House - the riots alarmed me in part - because the book seemed to becoming true.

The question to be asked need to step outside the blame cycle and its diversions and be willing to go deep

...otherwise it will just be more of the same...more security will not lead to the real answers...However it will allow us to pretend the problem is solved...

crowd control for Robertsons Riot

Its simply amazing that the elected officials, and their appointed staff, have no idea how to manage crowd control.

We just came through a seriously well managed Olympic games, (fortunately these games were very securely managed, by real professionals).

The fact that the city manager did not review,extensively, the previous report on our last serious riot,(paid for by you and i the tax payer) from the 1994 Stanley cup final riot. Is all telling.

This clearly shows a complete lack in good judgement, by NOT properly covering all the bases, and in a potentially life threatening situation for all the law abiding citizens of the city, that were "invited" to enjoy the show and the big crowd, on the large screens.

Why was this allowed to shape up into a full blown riot??? why???

Media Response

Here's Paul Sullivan's take from Metro Vancouver:

"I’ve heard them called many things: But know them for what they are — terrorists. They pose triumphantly amidst the destruction, and it’s only because of luck and the much-maligned Vancouver police that there wasn’t more of it.

These people are just as rootless, pointless and lost as the dangerous fools who answer the call to jihad and other notions of mass destruction. It doesn’t matter that they were born and fostered in paradise. They can find the flimsy excuses to stoke their anger and justify their crimes anywhere, regardless of the banquet of opportunities laid on their table."

If this is the kind of response we can expect from the media then all is lost.

Jim Chu's Riot

Get real! Do you really think Gregor Robertson wouldn't have screamed like a stuck pig if he knew Jim Chu was going to abandon the city of Vancouver on the most strategically important night? But then maybe that's why he did it, hoping his teflon would protect him and Gregor would take the fall. Or perhaps he was just ordered to remove them by Gregors enemies. Something here stinks like the police riot in Seattle at the WTO.

The Shape of Things to Come

Blake is highlighting an important development.

I've heard this same ramping up of the intent of the riot from some of the media today as well - an attempt by them to now define rioters as terrorists.

And also today on the radio, Wally Oppal, in a discussion on the riot, was calling for the need for more prisons.

It is crucial that people step back for a moment, look at the big picture - and the ominous drift towards a wretched future that is now being set in motion.

OhCanada -- mandatory military service

In regards to OhCanada's statement: "Bring back mandatory military service. Finished high school go and serve for 1 year. No exceptions."

You identify yourself as a teacher or former teacher yet you are ill-informed.

Canada has never had mandatory military service in peacetime.

Conscription took place in 1917 & began agin in 1944. In Canada, conscription has never taken place in peacetime. Conscription became an extremely controversial issue during both World War I and World War II, especially in the province of Quebec.

Good questions, Bob -- now if...

If you had asked them on the Wednesday or Thursday before the riot they would have been far seeing. Why didn't you?

Vancouver's Worst riot?

I think the anti-Asian riot of 1907 was rather worse.
http://bit.ly/jVdIqr
http://bit.ly/mqpYRi