It won't be a 4 way fight,

It won't be a 4 way fight, the Greens always poll a lot higher between election than what they get election day. Even with no NDP running last time the Cons still won and all she is doing is ensuring gary Lunn wins again.

Green Party Opposes Democratic Socialsim

Canada's Green Party was hijacked some years ago when it took donations from corporations and funders intent on ensuring the Green Party remained loyal to economic captialism. That was the begining of the end of the Green Party's populist potential. Very sad.

If the Green Party really wants to challenge the status quo, it needs to see how our sick economic system is causing the destruction of the environment. This it refuses to do.

As long as this intellectual failure remains, the Green Party will be fighting a paper tiger, unable to really critique the economic oligarchies that run Candada, the US and the West.

Canada really lost an opportunity to galvanize citizen unrest. The Green Party unfortunately will have to answer for this down the road.

Great discussion.

Definition of Stupid

"....even many of the conservatives have a conservation bent, Wu said. "It is possible to get a portion of the Gary Lunn vote to go to Elizabeth..."

I always suspected that Canada's Cons were dumb, but a green person voting for Gary "Tar Sands" Lunn would be so stupid as to require immediate commitment to some sort of institution.

Last federal election, exit polls showed that people who thought the environment was most important issue voted overwhelmingly Green ensuring that Harpo's fascists got to spend a few more years destroying Canada's environment.

Are Greens Canada's dumbest voters?

Neocon's love the Greens's, thinking of them as "useful idiots" who elect the Cons over and over.

The GP's existence rides on the brand name of the Euro Green movement who with their MMP electoral systems can actually get elected. Somehow some puerile Canadian's who don't play well with others, got a hold of the Green brand and now get a large contingent of brand conscious low information uninformed voters to vote their ticket These unfortunate voters give with their vote these irresponsible malcontents a huge pile of money magnifying their power enormously.

Their kind is despised in the US after GP leader Ralph Nader elected George Bush and sent the greenest politician in the world Al Gore to the sidelines. Their odious participation in that election gave us a million dead Iraqis', a fatal 10 year hiatus in the global warming war and the worst global recession in 80 years.

Had the Green movement not been so successful at stopping new nuclear power over the last 30 years, hundreds of millions of people now sickened and dead from coal plant produced radioactive waste, dust, mercury, and arsenic, all over the world would be alive and healthy.

Global warming and peak oil would be unheard of.

Now by driving us right over that as little as ten years civilization ending Climate/Peak oil crisis with their silly "renewable" religion, and support of Big Coal/Oil's fight against nuclear power killing millions more every year, the GP seems bound and determined to kill lots more folks in very big ways.

Lots of Green politicians are running for the NDP and Liberals and have made enormous progress in turning those parties towards sustainable policies. They could have signed up Green supporters by the thousands to these parties, taking over entire constituency associations, sending green delegates to policy conventions, nominating green candidates and making sure the parties went Green. Stephen Harper even showed them how to do it with his Christian fundamentalist takeover of the Progressive Conservative party.

The Green Party reelected the Gordo last time, Harpo twice and put BC and Canada back years in the battle against global warning.They have caused enormous damage to my county, my province and my planet.

Lizzie May and useful idiots like Weaver are the dark side enemy of the environmental movement and Gaia herself.

"If the Green Party really

"If the Green Party really wants to challenge the status quo, it needs to see how our sick economic system is causing the destruction of the environment. This it refuses to do."

That is why I can't vote for them. There are still pandering to the economic system. A great example is carbon 'trading'.

Problems For The Greens

Has anyone ever read the Green Party's green book or even visited their website?. I did and I was surprised. To me the greens are more like conservatives than anything else. Also this party supports carbon taxation. The problem is that the voters don't just yet see the greens as a viable alternative to any other party we have. I know people who voted for them in the last provincial election and yep their vote got Campbell re-elected. Perhaps in a few years the greens might be an alternative but until then it seems like they have got their work cut out for them.

People Aren't Dumb Enough

May has proven herself as "just another political hack". And even worse for her party, a politically correct, conniving one, at that.

Lunn's campaign

The Tyee and others reported that Lunn did a lot more than just compile a list of supporters.

You're leaving out all the support he got from Common Sense Advocacy of Victoria, the Dean Park Advocacy Association, the Economic Advisory Council of Saanich and the Saanich Peninsula Citizens Council:

http://thetyee.ca/News/2008/10/21/Lunn/

This type of sleaze was in play before May arrived. I assume it'll be worse next time around.

naivete

I find the political naivety in these discussions alarming. If the green party adopted half the policy recommendations I've seen here, they would be marginalized to the point of oblivion. Every political party in this country that has any hope of governing, provincially or federally, has to get the center because that's where most folks reside.

You can bemoan that all you like, but if the NDP moves further left -- as has been suggested numerous times on this site -- they would lose far more than they would gain. That center space used to be occupied (and still is to a degree) by the Liberals (federal, not provincial). But Harpo plays those incompetents (NDP and Liberal) like a fiddle. The NDP still isn't close enough to the center, and the Liberals are doomed to incessant waffling because their leaders have been (and still are) incompetent fools.

As for the provincial Liberals? This HST battle is hilarious. Never has so much smoke been generated over something so inconsequential. They should be turfed because they lied, and they are incompetent -- and that will possibly happen if the NDP can ever get its finger out of its nose. But the HST is here to stay -- just ask Carol James.

Changing the voting system is the answer to all his. But how many times has that been tried in BC? and how many times has it failed? I don't see a pot of gold at the end of this rainbow.

It's simple. Three

It's simple. Three alternatives to the Brylcreem Boy mean that once again, the left-centre vote will be fatally split, and the blue-rinse rednecks who do show up to vote (because that's what actually wins elections) will re-elect Lunn, for the SIXTH time. That riding is his for as long as he wants it.

Let's look at the last two elections: Briony Penn, the Liberal candidate, would have won if the 3,667 people who voted for the NDP candidate WHO WASN'T EVEN IN THE RACE (he had withdrawn weeks before but the ballots had already been printed) had voted for her (as apparently about 8,000 NDP did, to go by last election's results - but at least 5,000 just stayed home: see 2006 results below). Were these votes in protest or did they simply not even know he was gone? (This omits discussion of the mysterious auto-dialed phone calls made the night before the election, that may or may not have generated votes for the NDP).

Saanich - Gulf Islands 2008 Results (64,448 votes in all)
CON Gary Lunn 27,988 votes 43.43% of all votes Elected
LIB Briony Penn 25,367 votes 39.36%
GRN Andrew Lewis 6,732 votes 10.45%
NDP Julian West 3,667 votes 5.69%
LTN Dale Leier 246 votes 0.38%
WBP Patricia O'Brien 195 votes 0.30%
CAP Jeremy Arney 139 votes 0.22%
CHP Dan Moreau 114 votes 0.18%

2006 Results for Saanich-Gulf Islands (65,721 votes in all)
Gary Lunn CON 24,416 votes 37.15% Elected
Jennifer Burgis NDP 17,445 26.54%
Sheila Orr LIB 17,144 26.09%
Andrew Lewis GRN 6,533 9.94%
Patricia O'Brien WBP 183 0.28%

freebear and Jeffrey J. pretty much nailed it!

The quiet "vote splitting" support that the Greens recieve from the right, should normally disqualify them from receiving any votes. This race will be interesting, as Lunn the Conservative will not be afforded that luxury. This time he'll fair better if he quietly supports the NDP.

Good-bye, Gary!

Voters in Saanich-Gulf Islands who want an alternative to Lunn would be mad to vote for Elizabeth when a genuine climate change scientist, who also happens to have an M.BA., is running for the Liberal Party. Dr. Renee Hetherington (who lives in Saanich and whose family tree includes three generations on Salt Spring Island) is every Canadian's dream M.P. Focussed, caring, phenomenally well-informed, determined and with a megawatt smile, Renee is already working hard within the Liberal Party on environmental issues. But her talents and experience are wide-ranging and make her far more than a one-issue politician. By running for the Liberals, Renee Hetherington offers the people of S-GI a very real opportunity to remove Gary Lunn from office and gain a dream M.P. Plus, imagine voting for a national party that actually knows how to manage the economy and be a responsible leader in the world!

Green party elected lunn

There you go.

CON Gary Lunn 27,988 votes 43.43% of all votes Elected
LIB Briony Penn 25,367 votes 39.36%
GRN Andrew Lewis 6,732 votes 10.45%

The NDP had even dropped out. Talk about low information voters!!

Ultimate Stratigic Voting

Everyone who votes Green move to Saanich-Gulf Islands.

Huh?

" Plus, imagine voting for a national party that actually knows how to manage the economy and be a responsible leader in the world! "

What party would that be?

Blackie

You're probably right in your analysis, but what I wonder is how all this collusion across the board has affected voter turnout - 58% in the last election if I'm remembering correctly. If people are seeing very little difference in candidates, it's plausible that they will become alienated from the process no?

Well, if (according to Hetherington's camp), May is either

a "Jolly Green Giant, or a Sad Little Sprout", I wonder how Hetherington or Lunn could be described.

At any rate, from my outpost, it sure looks like a lot of folks at SGI have to hold their noses to even vote for the ones they like.

Intriguing battleground.

Saanich-gulf Islands has replaced Vancouver-centre as BC's electoral battleground. Additional campaign stops by 4 party leaders will bring huge national media attention and a deluge of polls.
Normally high turn out will spike.
Lunn has benefitted from the centre-left split, but nobody can call this seat at this point.
Lunn has baggage; he must defend federal conservative links to the HST, olympic expense accounts higher than all other ministers and his poor performance in at least 2 cabinet posts.

This article is right on one point; no limit on pre-election spending is critical. Lunn's party is loaded and friends with bags of money are eager to thank him for lavish olympic galas in Whistler and Vancouver.
A smart candidate could tap just enough angry local voters to win BC's closest race.

blackie

Uh-uh, all Canadian voters are not in the centre. And the parties know it which is why they don't take your advice and all become centrists.

Harper is PM because he caters to his base, and those people may be a lot of things but "centrists" isn't one of them.

If the NDP moved to the centre they'd disappear because no one would vote for them anymore.

The Liberals are as close to a centrist party as we've got and their numbers say everything there is to say about how many people occupy Canada's political centre.

The most important number in Canadian politics these days is the number of non-voters.

heh

I've walked away before, but this is really it.

It's fine for Seth to say that I'm "Canada's dumbest voter", a "useful idiot", a "puerile Canadian", a "brand conscious low information uninformed voter", and that I'm "bound and determined to kill lots more folks in very big ways", "hundreds of millions of people now sickened and dead" thanks to me. A retarded mass murderer, nope that's not offensive at all.

A simple bit of profanity in response (what else can you say to such an infantile tirade), and his verbal diarreah stands while I get moderated?

I suppose Seth none of that had anything to do with the people who actually wanted it to happen, ie Harper and his crew, no they were just pawns in my evil plan to destroy the world. And I suppose that the NDP and Liberal parties did everything they possibly could to sway me to their side, being greener than green and welcoming me with open arms (such as yours).

Well keep it up Tyee. You've been at this NDP boosting game for almost 8 years, and you've done nowhere near as much to change the political situation as Bill Vanderzalm has in a few months. Kudos to you.

Peace. I'll be hanging around where I feel more welcome. Stay strong Mr. Deak, you were half the reason I kept coming back. Mr Geist, I follow your blog so no reason to come here to read what you have to say. Some good reporting has happened here, such a shame.

If you all want any kind of proportional voting system.....

....you have to vote for a party that advocates it. That would NOT be the Cons, the Libs, or the NDP.

PS

Who cares what policies each of the parties represents?

None of them actually adhere to their platforms anyway.

One wonders, eh?

E.M. has "made herself a local presence."

I wouldn't expect that to last too long after she has gotten what she clearly came for, the votes. I cannot imagine many things more craven than hotfooting it to the other end of the land, for the sole reason that you think you can just swing that part of your anatomy onto a seat there, where you couldn't anywhere else. Are people in Saanich that eager to be used? I hope not, it would be too depressing! Some people just have no shame...

Note a hope

Look, you had a a well respected LOCAL environmentalist/PhD running for the Libs in the last election, with an NDP candidate forced to exist the race due to scandal and a n0n-factor Green candidate, and Penn still couldn't beat Lunn. Where does a carpetbagger like May get the notion that she can do any better, or even win SGI?

Not a frickin hope. Lunn could die tragically a week before the vote, and his corpse would glide easily to power, especially against May.

dorothy

Lunn does. So why not the others? Voters are there to be used, like so much cannon fodder. Were it otherwise, we'd have an overwhelming majority of independent candidates running on issues, rather than party hacks whose loyalty priorities place the constituents dead last.

MIT on Greens

For mikey

in the MIT June 2010 issue of Technology Review. Here is the text on page 89:

"...If today Greenpeace and an entire generation of activists simply cannot accept that nuclear power might be the most credible source of carbon-free energy, it's because doing so would entail an almost unbearable recognition; that a very large part of their life's work has been
fundamentally, disastrously wrong, and that by obstructing the transition to nuclear back in the 1070's, they bear direct responsibility both for global warming and for the hundreds of thousands of deaths that have resulted from coal-related pollution."

Note that the hundreds of thousands of dead are only in the US world wide its estimated by the WHO at over a hundred million.

Neocons are a force of nature. They are like wolves in a cage.

Responsible citizens know that in our fundamentally flawed first past the post system, when progressives who at best resemble a herd of cats divide then Neocons who goosestep in lockstep behind Herr Leader conquer.

It is the tiny membership of the Green Party with access to low information brand conscious disaffected voters who election after election fits the key to the lock and opens the wolves cage.

So we're all f***ed then?

seth, you give a passing nod to "our fundamentally flawed first past the post system" before going off on yet another tirade against the Greens. So, the NDP are allowed to maintain their principles and not (for example) move towards the centre in order to garner more votes, but the Greens must abandon theirs, and indeed must throw in the towel completely?

Earlier you referred to euro-Greens, in voting systems where they actually have a good chance of winning seats. Why not focus your pent-up frustration on that change instead? It seems to me that your fixation on the Greens is a Red herring.

Speaking of Europe, in Germany, the Greens -- past members of two coalition governments at the national level -- are strongly against nuclear power, and have shaped the national consensus to the extent that now even the ruling conservatives find it politically untenable to support the building of new nuclear power plants. This is because most voters reject the -- ironically typically neo-con -- line that you regurgitate, namely that nuclear is the one-and-only environmentally friendly alternative to coal. (Does half-life mean nothing to you other than as the name of a wildly successful video game of the early naughties?) The German public, and many other Europeans besides, call b.s. and say that those billions of dollars/euros could and should be invested in researching and exploiting truly renewable energy sources.

Take off your myopic North American-centric glasses and you will see that having a strong Green presence on the political stage does not automatically equal unleashing the neo-con hounds of hell, because the neo-con hounds of hell are (thankfully) a more isolated phenomenon than inhabitants of the North American media-bubble are led to believe.

Corporate Green Supporters

It just cannot be as corporations lobby government for all the breaks as its no to regulations, no to taxes, no to fair pay, no to health care, no to social spending, and the list goes on and on as corporations make a world all to their where everyone else has to live with. Now how democratic is that as Global is only to happy to spin a room so the Liberals and Global come out on top. Everyone's dizzy and sitting this one out as Campbell supporters, who are they again oh yes coporate green washers.

To vote or not to vote

Provicially and Federally many are looking for someone to vote for.

I have heard the green party was created to split the vote. True or not there is a need for another choice. Hoping for a choice that will turn Canada and the provinces into another France -Sweden a country that puts people first

I for one am looking for a party that actually has as its priority the care and protection of the voters / tax payers of any age or disability / ability

I am yet to figure out why the provincial greens haven't been voicing an opinion on the HST
If more tax $$ are needed why not sell Pot like booze out of the Liquor Stores around the province?? I don't drink or smoke pot but Booze, Pot or Cigarette are dollars spent by choice
Why haven't the Green parties ( federal or provincial) let the voters know how their view on the issues that have dominated the news of late.
I for one am looking for very compassionate party to vote for. I want to vote for a party that puts people before business or other greedy - self serving idiots. With out people to buy from business there is no business. I realize most people have been trained mainly as consumers.

Marginalize the Green Party?

Seems to me Ms May has already been pretty successful in doing that already....

No Hope May

May hasn't a hope. She should have run in Vancouver center or south. but she appears like she doesn't want to win. The idea of running on local ideas of water quality and pollution rather than hairy fairy Copenhagen makes a lot of sense though.

BTW, Andy Weaver did not win the Nobel Peace Prize, the IPCC was given part of the Peace Prize along will Al Gore. Andy was only one of thousands of participants in the IPCC. Meanwhile, the Gorical has another sex charge, no wonder Tipper got one of the 15,000 sq ft houses.

Self serving opportunist

May's candidacy is the result of the Greens being taken over by the large corporate "Environmentalist" groups like Sierra Club and WCWC, then used as personal vehicles for the leaders. Like Adriane Carr in BC, May has succeeded in making her candidacy the focus of the entire national party, and when called on her parachute act she simply says "That's what the old parties do".
The organizations these people come from are built on the corporate model, with the "top" people making all the decisions and generally seeing themselves as "CEOs" on the same plane as the heads of companies - thereby demonstrating their complete lack of understanding of the problem.
Anyone who really wants to see change should get active inside whichever party seems to suit their interests best, or start a new party or whatever, rather than sitting back watching until voting day then bitching about the lack of alternatives. For any sensible environmentalist wanting to be part of a party in government at some point in the next 40 years, that would have to be the NDP - yet many have deserted that party due to conflict with labour and other interests which run the NDP through greater and longer standing participation. As a result the NDP's reactionaries and bureaucrats have had no problem continuing to control the party, which has become "browner" and less progressive, turning off even more voters and potential participants. In BC the ensuing vote splitting has elected Gordo's gang in '05 and '09, and Green leaning NDP members have been deserted and scorned by the self righteous Green weenies and their self interested leaders.

As for Carole James, she doesn't seem to speak a word unless it is scripted by her coterie of consultants, pollsters and handlers, all of whom are far more concerned with which way the wind is blowing on a given day than with principles or values - resulting in flip flopping and contortions usually reserved for the circus. They are now hoping the fallout from Van Der Zalm's petition and the belated outrage against Liberal perfidy can last long enough to allow them to win by default in 2013!

mikev

The Tyee doesn't endorse the views of anyone who comments on our threads, nor do we moderate to favour any position. The rules are that a person can criticize a party, an ideology, etc, but when the insults become personal, targetted specifically at a commenter, then we moderate those comments and issue a warning. If The Tyee is so biased against the Greens why was our cover story a straighforward profile of the Green leader in her new riding?

As John Lennon noted:

"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans."

All right. So E.M. isn't "good enough", according to the posts on this heere thread. But neither are the existing political parties.

Now what?

gee, I thought you'd never ask...

"Now what" is indeed the operative question.
May is following the lead of the established parties, which arguably have exhausted most of their credibility with Canadian (and BC) voters, if not showing up to vote is any indication, not to mention minority governments...and one could hardly ignore the numbers on the anti-HST petitions as a reflection of disatisfaction with the current provincial government.
The party system is archaic of course and that is a large factor, but it is not the only one. And the relentless middle/upper class background of virtually every candidate, with a few minor exceptions, is another...But still and all, by and large these people, these budding and established politicians, are devoid of imagination and the kind of committment to ideals that inspires.We are relentlessly 'messaged', but rarely talked to...perhaps some nice pollster chats a bit...and the feel is very like the managed feel of a large corporation.

I am only allowed so many characters here, but the kind of thing I'd like to hear politicians say is something like this...
Why on earth are we putting together yet another 'hot-weather emergency plan' for the homeless? Why don't we just get on with making sure they all have goddamn homes?
This kind of talk would be called naive and foolish of course, and many might even think it is so...a measure of how corporatized the culture has become in a few decades. Is it any wonder that after listening to a litany of banal and mealy-mouthed utterances that mean absolutely nothing that so many refuse to vote?
Anyway, my first prescription for 'now what' is to stop talking about the fucking strategy and tactics of winning elections and get on with some of the problems in our communities.

VivianLeaDoubt

As you pointed out in your excellent post, those (with few exceptions) who run for political positions are virtual clones of one another. So the idea of "getting on" won't come from them.

I would like to see more power "devolved" to municipal politics - where most peoples' interests lay on a day-to-day basis....even those those self-same people don't know that.

thanks...

for the compliment, Rick W. To be more specific about what I would like to see...

NGO's and non-profits of all stripes are crying out for volunteers and board members, and surely some of the energy devoted to electing a single candidate could be diverted to feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, teaching the challenged, enriching arts and culture, in short, helping to diminish some very real community problems. I mean this both as a very practical prescription (while waiting for the revolution, snark) and as a method of developing each individual's competence and leadership abilities. No handful of experts - whether government, or scientific, or academic, or other - will be able to change the course of a cullture/society...it will require the participation of all of us, in more ways than simply showing up at the ballot box. The more of this that are prepared for these challenges - say, because we have become an expert on homelessness in our area - the more we will make the mealy-mouthed politicians become irrelevant. When people begin to see natural leadership emerging in their own backyard, so to speak, they will recognize the potential for real, enduring change that does not depend on said politicians.
It depends on some vision and committment to excellence and active engagement and direct speak, perhaps...but it does not depend on the politicians.

Germany Green NOT

How badly it's done on GHG's after wasting a $hundred billion on not so renewables.

http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/energy/policy/germanys-green-energy-gap/1

Now the plan is to sacrifice the lives of tens of thousand of European citizens on the altar of the not so renewable religion.

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/mar2007/gb20070321_923592.htm?chan=globalbiz_europe_more+of+today%27s+top+stories

I think they'll keep the nukes - don't you?

VivianLeaDoubt

That's why the politicos are training the troops, and acquiring sound cannons, tasers, et al. They are EXPECTING some grass roots leadership to emerge, and they want to be ready.......(snark).

Sorry to be so negative (or is it called being pragmatic?), but I think not enough middle class Canucks are suffering enough (yet) to give a damn.

Do Green votes help to elect right wing governments?

Some commenters have suggested that Green voters have helped to elect right wing governments. Is there any evidence? My understanding is that Green support comes from all parts of the political spectrum. If equal support is withdrawn from the other major party or parties, then there is no change to the election results. It is even possible that more votes were taken away from Campbell liberals or Harper Conservatives than from other parties. Maybe Green voters prevented Harper from getting a majority. Who knows?

I suggest that first of all, we all work toward some form of proportional representation so that each vote counts. In the meantime, vote for your favorite party or candidate so that your voice is heard. If you vote out of fear for second choice or third choice, then you will never get what you want.

Informed opinions

How many people with a negative attitude toward the Green Platform have actually read the platform? How many with a negative attitude towards Elizabeth May have actually listened to her speak, or read her biography, or seen her in person?

Be very careful and wary when forming an opinion on something when that opinion is entirely based on opinions of others.

Always go to the source, and then form an opinion.

The Green Party Platform is here: http://greenparty.ca/files/attachments/Vision.Green_.2010.E.pdf

Their web site (http://greenparty.ca/) also has media releases and information about issues that are not published and discussed in mainstream media (mainstream media, including television networks and newspapers, have been bought up, and are now largely owned by the same corporations, and therefore offer only one dominant voice). The web site also has some videos of Elizabeth May's speeches.

The Green Platform offers an alternative for people who value a less corporate dominated society. The Green Platform is also the only platform to address the ever-increasing disgusting issue of animal welfare.

In the last election, the Greens won almost 1 million Canadian votes, from every single province and territory in Canada. They have come a long way since they started. Elizabeth May, an environmental lawyer, is part of that success. Her impressive qualifications are described here: http://greenparty.ca/leader/biography

Green seats in parliament will give a voice to Canadians who are fed up with corporate-dominion and ever-increasing polluted environment.