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Who's Ahead in BC, Libs or NDP?
Making sense of conflicting poll numbers and methods.
Big claims, 'fluid' figures. Image by Dan Hubig.
Some days, you just don't know what to believe.
Last week, the Mustel Group released a poll that had the B.C. Liberals and New Democratic Party neck and neck: Liberals 44 per cent, NDP 42 per cent.
A week before that, Ipsos Reid had the Liberals well in front with 44 per cent to the NDP's 35.
And a few days before that, Angus Reid Strategies had the NDP leading with 44 per cent to the Liberals' 39.
These dueling polls have political observers scratching their heads and looking for something in the polls' methodologies that would explain the differences.
'It's very fluid'
Evi Mustel, of the Mustel Group, told The Tyee there could be a couple of things at work here.
The difference between polls, she said, could be due to timing. Ipsos did its interviews from Nov. 5 to 12, before the Nov. 15 municipal elections, which saw the centre-left Vision Vancouver score a convincing victory.
Mustel was in the field from Nov. 14 to 22 and Mustel says the shift to the left in Vancouver "could have given the NDP a bit of a boost."
"This is politics in B.C.," she said. "It's very fluid."
Mustel's polls have shown a gradual climb for the NDP since March, a lot of which was probably due to the carbon tax, she said
The Liberals appear to be losing support in the Interior and with women, Mustel added.
The Ipsos polling, on the other hand, shows virtually no change in the party standings. Mustel said she has examined the methodology of the company's polls and can see nothing out of the ordinary.
(Ipsos did not return a call from The Tyee for this article. After the company's most recent poll came out, Ipsos Reid vice-president Kyle Braid told the Vancouver Sun's Jonathan Fowlie that he would not comment on the difference between his poll and the Reid poll. "I've gone through ours, I'm comfortable with the results, and I think I'll let the numbers and our record stand for itself," he said.)
Angus Reid's Internet polls
While the Mustel and Ipsos polls used similar methods, Angus Reid polls differently.
While Mustel and Ipsos interview people over the phone using computer-assisted random dialers, Reid interviews online from a database of people who have volunteered.
Reid describes this as a great advance in polling, a way around the fact that it's getting harder and harder to reach people by phone.
"While the telephone served as a great tool in the initial stages of polling, it is now estimated that more than 80 per cent of potential respondents refuse to participate in surveys over the telephone," a Reid "White Paper" states. "In addition, almost one-in-six adults are inaccessible to pollsters because they communicate exclusively by cell phone or employ blocking/screening devices that prevent surveyors from reaching their households."
Reid recruits poll participants by advertising on "an extensive array" of websites and through "non-governmental and charitable organizations.... Angus Reid Strategies ensures that the panel reflects the general population by continually verifying and recruiting so that the socio-demographic characteristics of each sampling region match actual sub-populations according to Statistics Canada and Elections Canada data."
In other words, they try to make sure the people they interview look like Canada -- or, in this case, B.C.
Pulling from panels
Online polling is relatively new, but it has been successful in Britain, the U.S. and Canada. Aspects of it, however, are still controversial.
After the latest Ipsos poll was released, local media noted that it had the same margin of error -- plus or minus 3.5 percentage points, 19 times out of 20 -- as the Angus Reid poll.
But margins of sampling error are based on random samples -- in this case a random sample would be one in which every potential B.C. voter has the same chance of being selected. (It's actually a bit more complicated than that. You can get a good, in-depth explanation of this stuff here.)
But online polls, as we mentioned above, are drawn from panels, which means that if you're not on the panel, you don't have any chance of being interviewed, even if you're a potential voter. The people on the panel, because they volunteered to participate, are said to be self-selecting.
The American Association for Public Opinion Research, which includes academic, government and private sector pollsters, states that "the reporting of a margin of sampling error associated with an opt-in or self-identified sample (that is, in a survey or poll where respondents are self-selecting) is misleading."
The Marketing Research and Intelligence Association, Canada's professional association for pollsters, has a similar policy. Its Code of Conduct advises members to refrain from quoting margins of error where respondents are self-selecting.
Nailing the federal vote
Angus Reid Strategies is not a corporate member of MRIA, although some of its employees are individual members, MRIA executive director Brendan Wycks told The Tyee.
The association's policy on margin of error doesn't mean that MRIA believes online polls are untrustworthy, Wycks said.
"We don't question or undermine the utility of online research," he said. "Our view is Angus Reid Strategies should not be quoting a margin of sampling error.
"But that's saying nothing about whether it's good research or not."
In fact, Wycks noted, Angus Reid was spot-on in its prediction of the outcome of the October federal election using online polls. (A call to a Reid spokesman for this article was not returned.)
Wycks said that most public political polling in the U.S. is done online. That may soon be the case in Canada, as well, he said.
Still, as Mustel said, "online polling is still developing its track record."
'Ignore the polls'
If it seems that we're providing more questions than answers here, you might want to heed the words of University of Victoria political scientist Dennis Pilon:
"My advice is always ignore the polls. Absolutely ignore polling."
For one thing, Pilon says, polls taken between elections tend to be unreliable.
"The people who agree to be interviewed [between elections] tend to be already interested in politics," he said. But many of the people who actually turn out to vote "have only a passing interest in anything political."
But Pilon also objects to polling on principle.
"I mean, morally, people should just ignore polling because polling is an attempt to rig the outcome before it happens," he said.
"If you give people the impression that one person's a front-runner, then that could encourage people to make decisions about participation: 'Oh forget it, my party never wins' or 'Oh, my party's going to win. I don't need to vote.' "
And, he points out, there's a lot more to the reliability of a poll than sampling error.
"This 19 times out of 20 garbage that appears every time, most people have no idea what that means," he said. "In fact, it gives people a false sense of confidence."
Ignore the horserace: Pilon
Factors determining a poll's reliability include what questions were asked, what order they were asked in and the number of people who refused to be interviewed, Pilon said.
Focusing on the political horserace is not good for democracy, he said.
"Who can win is not an interesting question democratically.... That's where this polling stuff just fuels a rather cynical approach to the substance of politics. Which not surprisingly turns people off politics."
For people who like politics to resemble professional wrestling, horserace polls are great, Pilon said.
However, "a lot of people like the idea of politics as a dialogue, as a deliberation, as an inclusive process. This constant harping on polls and who can win turns those people away from the political system."
Said Pilon: "In the end, the supposed benefits of polling, I'm not sure there really are any."
Related Tyee stories:
- 'Too many damn polls,' says new election eve poll
- Hey, Careful Where You Swing that Poll!
More muddled election math. - Globe Defends Polling Techniques
Number, content of questions without bias says paper's managing editor.




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quarry bay
3 years ago
Something going on?
If you check the detailed tables you will find some very interesting results,here is the Angus Reid (correct poll) check out the breakdown for diffrent parts of the province
http://www.angus-reid.com/uppdf/2008.11.15_BCPolitics_1.pdf
quarry bay
3 years ago
Also
I was going to give you the Ipsos reid detailed tables but for some unknown reason the link isn`t working,funny eh,here it is anyways
http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/client/act_dsp_pdf.cfm?name=mr1117-2tb1.pdf&id=4177
According to the Ipsos detailed tables, the Liberals are leading in the GVRD 46% to 33%
And according to Ipsos it is a dead heat on Vancouver island between liberals and ndp
Ever since Ipsos reid and Canwest global partnered up there has been something fishy about some polls
http://www.ipsos-na.com/news/pressrelease.cfm?id=2838
Angus reid poll,the accurate poll has ndp leading the liberals 50% to 39% on vancouver island,that seems about right,considering vancouver island is a ndp stronghold,and the angus reid poll has the ndp up a little bit in the gvrd,also with the angus reid poll,angus reid has the liberals leading big-time in the northeast part of BC,sounds right,ita a liberal stronghold.
Something just doesn`t add up with the ipsos reid poll,and funny how there is no way to access the detailed tables for the Ipsos reid poll tonight,could it have something to do with the Tyee calling Ipsos Reid and asking questions about their poll and letting Ipsos know that there was a story coming out about the polls?
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
BC Opinion Polls...
Not to be repetitive, but in my view, both Mustel and Ipsos have had a remarkable track record in BC over the past decade or more and have virtually mirrored each others political findings.
And Mustel has been pretty well "bang on" in terms of their numbers and the actual results.
http://www.mustelgroup.com/accuracy.php
The last Mustel/Ipsos polls were released in June with 10% and 14% spreads in favour of the Liberals respectively.
During late summer comes along the new kid on the block, Angus Reid Strategies, with completely different spreads from Mustel and Ipsos, now in favour of the NDP.
And this is what Evi Mustel of Mustel had to say about that first ARS poll:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/08/27/bc-liberal-ndp-poll.html
And then ARS publicly releases its second poll a few weeks ago showing a 5% spread in favour of the NDP.
Ipsos was in the field during the same time period with the same 800 sample size but showing a 9% spread in favour of the Liberals.
What's going on here?
While ARS might have been close regarding its final federal election result, ARS can also be completely off the wall esp. concerning its 800 sample size federal poll in Saskatchewan:
CPC - 40% (actual - 54%)
NDP - 35% (actual - 26%)
http://www.newstalk650.com/files/news-talk-angus-reid-federal-election-poll-oct-10.pdf
ARS showed a narrow spread of 5% in Saskatchewan when the actual spread was 28%. And those numbers are the difference between a narrow majority and a landslide.
Perhaps ARS still needs to re-calibrate some of its provincial online survey panels such as in Saskatchewan and here in BC.
One week after Ipsos came out with its poll showing a 9% spread in favour of the Liberals, Mustel came out with its poll showing a 2% spread in favour of the Liberals.
Perhaps Vaughn Palmer had it right when he stated on Voice of BC that both senior Liberals and New Democrats confided to him that the Liberals were ahead in BC by a 5% - 6% margin.
That 5% - 6% margin (avg. of 2% and 9%) is the exact median between the Ipsos and Mustel results.
quarry bay
3 years ago
Luke Skywalker
Luke -the latest Mustel poll has the BC NDP and the BC Liberals within 2 points,I believe the Mustel is in the Ball park one way or another.
What I am saying is the Ipsos Reid poll has the BC Liberals leading by 13 points in the GVRD,(Laughable) and Ipsos has it a tie on vancouver island(laughable)
That would be like saying the Liberals and NDP are tied in west Vancouver(laughable)
Ipsos reid numbers don`t add up--As for the Mustel poll they don`t have any detailed tables for their polls.
But definatly the Ipsos poll is out of whack!
G West
3 years ago
luke, buddy
You are repetitive.
And I mean that in the friendliest possible way. We know you love 'em bud.
Nobody cares!
Luke Skywalker
3 years ago
g west... and egmont rapids...
g west... well... you are just being g west. :)
And egmont rapids... what's with the new moniker? :)
alive
3 years ago
enough Luke!
Luke: do everybody a favour by not monopolizing this site!
I am sure you have reached a position where people skip anyting with your name on it, simply because it is repeat after repeat!
Guess what: some of us do have an actual life, and wasting time on you is not an option!
ME2
3 years ago
alive
Like yourself, alive, I too have given up on reading ANYTHING in the Comments section re poll results - endless, inconclusive blather about otherwise unsupportable wishful thinking.
But it doesn't bother me to just skip on to a comment worth reading.
Vortigern1
3 years ago
Angus-Reid: Interior
I have a bit of a hard time believing the Angus-Reid figures for the interior, especially the southern interior. While the NDP is bound to win seats in the Kootenays, and has a reasonable shot in Kamloops, the half dozen Okanagan seats are very long shots to say the least. Boosted by those more or less safe seats, the Liberals should be ahead in that region.
Who knows, though. Maybe there's something in the Okanagan water besides old bridge pontoons.....
DJT
3 years ago
1st year stats, anyone?
Dennis Pilon is correct. If sampling is not 100% random,validity is compromised or goes right out the window. A first year undergrad stats student knows that. Thus, online polls (and many others) don't mean much, really.
I don't pay attention to polls, partly because for the most part I don't care about what anybody else thinks. I have an opinion and can make up my own mind, thank you very much. For the same reason, I ignore the posts on these threads that, at every opportunity, spew polling results.
freebear
3 years ago
Polls Suck!
So far all the posters are comparing polls.
I guess they missed the point or they do like 'political wrestling'!
Polls are an example of attempting to predict or influence the election outcome. And as noted in the article; responses depend on the questions and the order that they are asked.
Sitting governments sometimes seem more worried about polls than doing what they said they wouuld do and actually leading the citizens with ideas, plans and actions!
After all the polls, they still end up deferring to the ultimate poll-an actual vote count!
Polling is a waste of resources including time.
quarry bay
3 years ago
I agree
Polls should be banned,unfortunatly BC Liberals use the polls as a weapon,to try to demoralize the NDP
I know the REAL poll numbers, despite what is happening at Ipsos Reid (their polls are clones)
The Mustel poll has had the BC Liberals lose an 18 point lead since the spring,that is a huge number and that loss of support has occured with the most expensive,extensive ad campaign in BC history!
Radio ads,TV ads,Internet,print,billboards,photo-ops,press releases disguised as news, over 100 million on ads since june.
Yet the Liberals are bleeding votes,they got whacked in the bi-election,despite the claim of Ipsos that the liberals lead 46% to 33% in the GVRD.
The levee has broke against Campbell,to lose all that support after 7 1/2 years is a bad sign for Campbell,it is not like people are unfamiliar with him.
Dan the socialist
3 years ago
I think the federal
I think the federal Coalition will hurt Carole James inadvertently next May, which is too bad. But then after defeat hopefully the NDP gets a better leader.
I am a lifelong NDP supporter and member but next provincial election I will not vote and can not for Carole (I can not vote for Gordo either as I do not vote for right wing parties)and will vote Marxist instead or just spoil my ballot.
Stephanie T
3 years ago
99.9% of pollsters agree,
99.9% of pollsters agree, 80% of polls can be skewed to achieve a pre-determined outcome 75% of the time (with a 3.5% margin of error). :o)