Is there any way

Is there any way we can make the highways and byways of this province cell-phone free zones?

Could you check with the boss at the bureau of public affairs about that Luke...hardly a week goes by when some f'n idiot at the wheel of a $70G SUV comes close to hitting me because she or he is talking on the damn phone.

I'd like to ban the whole phenomenon - even the Bell ones that offer special discounts to BC Liberals.

Nothing like a good emergency to test your mettle Luke - a skywalker like you should be up to challenge now and then.

Cell phones, like business travel that uses airplanes, are proof that the devil is alive in the world's affairs.

[I hope pee wee didn't copyright that little construction.]

Geeee West: Quote:I'd like

Geeee West:

Darn Libs... And here I'm stuck with my high-cost Telus Motorola. lol

Au contrare, I fully supported Jack's crackdown on cell phone costs for Canada's 19.3 million subscribers.

http://www.ndp.ca/page/6112

Nope Luke

Just get rid of the damn things - they're likely gonna find they scramble your brain after a while too. Bring back the corner phone booth and let me enjoy a movie, a restaurant meal and a walk in a park without hearing some idiot who can't stand to be alone for more than a minute.

You wouldn't expect much more from Jack - he spends a lot of time shilling for Computer instruction CDs of the TeeVee - he wouldn't be likely to be down on cellphones would he?

Maybe making them really cheap is a good idea though - then when I walk up and take one away from an idiot who hasn't got enough sense not to use the damn thing in public and I smash it on the sidewalk it won't cost me as much for the satisfaction.

They are proof the devil interfered in the lives of men.

You should check with Bell - they were so desperate to hook up with Gordon and Co as an Olympic sponsor I think they were practically giving the damn things away to any 'BC Liberal' with a card a while back - I can show you the brochures.

Legislate!

GWest, I also find cell phones a major annoyance, what we need is a strong political leader with the strength and courage to do the right thing and legislate the damned things away.

Since most are not up for the challenge, why not you? You are a shoe in. With ideas and intelligence like yours, who would dare run against you,. Then you can outlaw all the things you do not like.

And the rest of us will be all the better for it.

c/p - you're joking

I'm a democrat - not a potential dictator; I'm interested in changing peoples' minds and getting them to think for themselves again...I have not the slightest interest in doing peoples' thinking for them.

If you don't like the way cell phones are currently affecting the fabric and civility of our culture - let your local politicians know - don't expect me to do your hard work for you.

cheers

You might find this amusing woody

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/sept2006/usroad_deaths.html

G West

I thought we were discussing apples, here not potatoes. Com on that's got squat to do with The twilight zone

Ahh, the Twilight Zone

[COMMENT DIRECTLY OFFENSIVE TO ANOTHER COMMENTER REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

city person

EDITED FOR PERSONAL INSULTS -- TYEE MODERATOR

But really, I'm still waiting for the long list of lives 'saved' by cell phones.

Kevin/Luke extends his Expertise

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT DIRECTED AT ANOTHER COMMENTER REMOVED HERE...]

The 3-5 kilometre range is overstating things where hills/mountains happen to be between the tower in the park and the hopeful cell phone user. Since the CBC tower is at the LOWEST point (at the mouth of Carpenter Creek) on some of the very limited flat ground for miles around, it shouldn't be hard [...AND HERE REMOVED. -MODERATOR.] to imagine just how spotty the coverage would be. There are people closer to the tower than 3-5 km who already don't receive a decent TV signal, so I would assume their cell signal would be just as poor or non-existent.

People who aren't prepared to cope with emergencies and look after themselves should perhaps avoid the wilderness, the ocean and large bodies of freshwater. Though a cell signal will travel quite a distance over water, if one is around one of the corners and into a bay a mile or two north or south of town, they can use they cell phone to beat on the outboard motor to help get it started. BTW, in case you weren't aware DUDE, you should have some alternate propulsion method like paddles or oars, it isn't only common sense, but the law.

Just hope that emergency doesn't occur just past the golf course dipping into Rosbery or around the first corner heading to Kaslo, or all you'll be able to use your phone for is to try and knock yourself out as a form of pain management. Besides, it can take considerable time for an ambulance to arrive in these parts, even if you have a landline in your hand. Don't even ask me how many miles and closed hospitals it might pass before I can get any necessary treatment.

The thing that disgusts me the most is the standard issue Telus arrogance and lack of respect for the locals' wishes. But since they have pretty much of a monopoly on basic service and even competing ISPs have no choice but to use their lines, they don't really have to concern themselves much with customer relations. They can devote all that energy to making sure they collect any outstanding balances owing.

Ummmm kootkoot...

Ya do know that the above referenced quote was derived from the article and is attributable to the local area Julia Greenlaw of the Healthy Housing Society??

Luke OIC Esq.

I'm not contradicting Ms. Greenlaw's statement. I am saying, (and why are you acting so stubbornly stupid?), that all bets are off regarding range IF THERE ARE OBSTACLES, such as mountains, hills, both of which are in great supply hereabouts. So the 3-5 km may be a best case scenario WHERE YOU ALSO HAVE LINE OF SIGHT.

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT DIRECTED AT ANOTHER COMMENTER REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]are you purposely trying to disrupt rational discussion in favor of pushing the corporate/Liarbral agenda (almost indistinguishable). Indeed if the transmitter was located somewhere HIGHER, which would require an out of town location, the range may be much greater, and definitely less blank spots would be encountered.

Telus sez that it wouldn't be practical as they would have to erect the tower. Well maybe they don't have enough business if it isn't practical to provide their own infrastructure. Besides if you start at a HIGH POINT, how tall of a tower would you need? [OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.] There is already a wireless set-up retransmitting satellite internet clear out to Hills (over 20 miles) where it enjoys line of site from up on Red Mountain Road. Most locations in Hills get no or poor TV reception from the tower in the Park.

BTW, I notice you didn't explain why you almost had to spend a night on the water because you apparently didn't bother to pack any oars or paddles (or spare electric motor).

So just how does one decide.....

....which technology is appropriate and which isn't. PC's might well be equaled to cel phones in their "blight" on humankind.......

Is there a difference

between probably and "lets say 10% of those involve cell phones as a causation factor"?

Let's say you come up with the actual numbers. I love your reference to 9/11 though.

Seems the passengers on Flight 93 just used ESP to deduce they were in deep do do and had to try and regain control of the aircraft. I wonder how many lives that act of heroism saved. I guess we'll never know as it's only possible to count casualties or is that only casualties count.

It would also appear that alcohol and cell phones aren't the only form of impairment otherwise there would be no accidents except those caused by mechanical failure.

nope - not me pal - you're the one who says

that cell phones save lives - remember?

As for flt 93, I think all those people died - but I won't blame their deaths on cell phones.

Keep trying snert - so far you haven't saved a single life, have you?

I imagine there are a few, but combined with the numer they've caused on the highways and streets I'd say it's an immaterial number.

We'd be better off and better people without them.

As a matter of fact, I saw an interesting bumper sticker the other day: 'Ned Lud was Right!'

Just a quick note...

There's been a lot of accusations recently levelled at people for being "a representative for Kevin Falcon" or media monitors. I haven't been overly vigilant about these in the past but will be more so in the future because these are, in fact, personal barbs directed at other commenters.

As such, they add to a bullying tone that we don't want in The Tyee's comment forum because it limits thoughtful discussion between a variety of voices, especially fresh voices who comment infrequently.

And, yes, that means you, Kootcoot (in this thread at least, though I'm aware that others have been doing it in other threads, too.)

And speaking of tone and personal attacks, City Person, your goading of GWest in this thread is offside. I'm aware of the back and forth that's happened between you two on other threads but I'm asking you to put a stop to it here.

Thanks everyone,

Geoff.

Yes the people in flight 93 all died.

The lives that were saved were the ones that were at the target location where ever that was supposed to be. I'm sure that those that sacrificed themselves to prevent further tragedy would be scratching their heads, if they could, as to why you can't see that.

I guess only casualties count in your books. That is quite apparent.

Some of the relatives of the 2800 lost at the WTC at least had the opportunity for a last good bye.

Why you even think that cell phones would have saved the lives of any of the others is beyond me.

Go ahead, throw your phone away. Sooner or later you will regret it, maybe painfully.

To The Moderator

Since your idea of moderation is beyond my understanding I guess I will just spend my time elsewhere for another. I personally find offensive people who incessantly and repeatedly echo the same Liberal/Corporate cant like mechanical commenters reading from the same list of talking points.

So Excuse Me, and tata!

New Denver is about way more than phones ...

Kootcoot had just given me this Kootenay story to read:

http://www.eloisecharet.ca/newsletter1.html

After reading it, and looking at the pictures, I was in a very introspective state of mind, as I dropped in at The Tyee ... and saw this superficial story about freakin cell phones in that same general territory.

Nobody has mentioned the giant, shattering issues at play in that landscape. Not even the author, Bill Metcalfe.

Have a look at the Eloise view of the Kootenays and blush.

I'm left wondering how much longer British Columbia (and Canada) can carry on the pretense of being a caring, democratic society without a news media willing to defend those values.

Vibrate!!!

Out of consideration for others, I'll bet!:-)

That said, I checked my own cell, which I discover has "vibrate mode". Ooooo, ya know I gotta check that out. B->

Might even get me some "Oooo, you naughty boy!" points with the Mrs.

A vibrating phone. Who woulda thunk it. :-) There is no morality in "the system" whatsoever.

You're the one making the case for cell phones

Not me.

Therefore, you do what you like with yours - I don't have one and never will - but if you ever are involved in accident while talking on one that impinges on me or mine you can be sure I'll sue your ass off.

I remind you one more time that it was YOU who claimed the following:

Cell phones have probably saved way more lives than they have cost.

You've now had well over 24 hours to make that case - a case which I refuted within 20 minutes of reading your post - so, since you have nothing further to offer we'll call it case closed.

All right with you snert?

If New Denver can keep the damn things out of one BC community there may even be hope for other areas that would like to stop the spreading contagion.

Good luck to 'em. And a tip of the hat to Eloise Charet

You refuted

in your own mind and without even providing any data to back it up. Good for you. I'm impressed as usual.

Why thank you snert

I always appreciate another opportunity to exchange views with you.

Recall, however, that you're the one who made the claim quoted above - the onus, my friend, is on YOU to produce the data - I actually did produce evidence of the deadly effect of cell phones in traffic - which you, of course, as is your wont, completely ignored.

You, on the other hand, produced little more than your usual snide comments and pointless interjections into a comment thread for which you apparently have nothing else to say.

Skookum 1

As always, I'm impressed by the range and eclectic nature of your reading.

Butler's a favourite of mine too.

There's a paragraph in that chapter I always think of as the best description of where we're headed that I've ever read. I think I can recall most of it from memory.

“The power of custom is enormous, and so gradual will be the change, that man’s sense of what is due to himself will be at no time rudely shocked; our bondage will steal upon us noiselessly and by imperceptible approaches; nor will there ever be such a clashing of desires between man and the machines as will lead to an encounter between them. Among themselves the machines will war eternally, but they will still require man as the being through whose agency the struggle will be principally conducted. In point of fact there is no occasion for anxiety about the future happiness of man so long as he continues to be in any way profitable to the machines; he may become the inferior race, but he will be infinitely better off than he is now. Is it not then both absurd and unreasonable to be envious of our benefactors? And should we not be guilty of consummate folly if we were to reject advantages which we cannot obtain otherwise, merely because they involve a greater gain to others than to ourselves?

And then he hits the reader upside the head:

“With those who can argue in this way I have nothing in common. I shrink with as much horror from believing that my race can ever be superseded or surpassed, as I should do from believing that even at the remotest period my ancestors were other than human beings. Could I believe that ten hundred thousand years ago a single one of my ancestors was another kind of being to myself, I should lose all self-respect, and take no further pleasure or interest in life. I have the same feeling with regard to my descendants, and believe it to be one that will be felt so generally that the country will resolve upon putting an immediate stop to all further mechanical progress, and upon destroying all improvements that have been made for the last three hundred years. I would not urge more than this. We must trust ourselves to deal with those that remain, and though I should prefer to have seen the destruction include another two hundred years, I am aware of the necessity for compromising, and would so far sacrifice my own individual convictions as to be content with three hundred. Less than this will be insufficient.”

This was the conclusion of the attack which led to the destruction of machinery throughout Erewhon.

Bias?

There is plenty of that on your board, Geoff, however your moderation tends to be targeted more at infrequent posters than at your old timers, who obviously feel this is their "turf."

It also appears those who regularly post here are of the same editorial bent as the Tyee and are permitted more leeway than those who do not share the same views.

This is a shame because for a real democracy to function, alternative views need to be aired without the other side resorting to personal attacks and name calling. That is the real challenge to being a moderator. Simply banning those who disagree with your agenda accomplishes nothing.

May 2008

This is the kind of thing I am talking about. This poster obviously has a bias and a politcal agenda. He is railing about a straw man. The solution to his anger is the ballot box. We live in functioning democracy. Perfect, no, but a darned sight better than most.

City Person

I'm sorry - I disagree - some so-called new posters do have a tendency to arrive here and conclude they 'understand' what's going on without actually having much of a clue.

I've seen it happen dozens of times - the assumption that anyone "knows" much about what anonymous posters 'really' think - or what their 'editorial bent' might be is absurd.

Furthermore, only those people who actually sign their real names have any right to claim they're actually doing much more than exploring ideas - the idea that this kind of anonymous conversation has anything to do with real democracy is absurd.

If you want to be treated with a modicum of respect, you'd do well to remember that personalizing things on a board like this is a always unwise.

Stick to ideas - you won't have much problem - start getting personal and you'll either be attacked or ignored.

The choice is yours.

As to your last statement about this being a 'functioning democracy' I completely disagree. Almost nothing could be further from the truth.

This democracy functions nicely for the 10 - 15% of the population who happen to have more than enough money and influence to live like 'democrats' - the equivalent of the citizens of ancient Athens - the rest of the population simply is not meant to be included as anything other than worker bees. That is their function – for which they get television, the lottery and cell phones as compensation. Orwell wrote about this society in 1948 with an accuracy and prescience that was quite unnerving.

We are far worse off, in virtually every measurable way, as a functioning and equitable democracy, than we were 30 years ago...this little story about the cavalier attitude that corporate Canada has toward the 'democratic' wishes of the community of New Denver is a perfect example of the hegemony you'd assert is democratic.

So please, don’t pretend things are going well – they aren’t, and they are going to get a lot worse.

functioning barely

With such low voter turnout as we see these days, and the candidate with the most money tending to be the winner, I'm not so sure our democracy is functioning terribly well. The ballot box is increasingly ineffectual. Public and economic pressure outside of elections seems just as effective.

G West

G West, if memory serves me right, wasn't the sole purpose of the BEST COMMENT----ALL COMMENTS columns about choice. Best Comments was intended for those viewers who wished to read and comment only to pertinent comments of that particular topic or subject. The other column, ALL COMMENTS (note it does say all comments) was intended for those who don't mind reading or participating in off topic comments. Additionally, commenter's, participants lobbied for this choice here at the Tyee. In order to achieve this task of viewing or commenting on the All Comments column, you have log onto it , by default the Best Comments column comes up. In summarizing if commenter's are going to be censored here on the all comments column, whats the logic to this type of system? The moderator shouldn't get to complacent with his participants. Once gone few return, myself I stopped reading and participating here last year for 6-8 months mainly due to what I felt was excessive censorship toward commentators.

So Long City Dude & Gang 1

"Tata" above, was going to be my last word here, but
I thought I would try to explain why kootcoot won't be reading, or participating at the "Mild One On the Line" for the forseeable future. I did just recently return from a few months of just not choosing to spend time here, and, most likely drawn by an article by Bill Tieleman, returned and started to once again include the Tyee in my online menu. The two comments by City Person below will be helpful as I try to explain my reasons for spending my time elsewhere.

City Person quotes the Moderator with:

(Old CP even has to be the grammar/spelling police on the Mod, wow!)
Then he points out that while he agrees with the moderator, he feels, apparently, that the targeting is unfairly applied (to him?).

Well our City Guy did get targeted for calling somebody else a troll, and everyone else who pointed out the sheer hypocrisy of this also got edited away. I hope that Mr. Urban Gentleman isn't claiming to be a discriminated against "infrequent poster," he may be new (under this monicker, at least) but on the BC Ferries thread, another where obviously one needs to be VERY CAREFUL what they say, he has already contributed over THIRTY comments. If you count the times people refer to his nonsense in their posts a search for "City Person" on that thread will yield results in three figures (which doesn't count things like City Guy or Dude).

Right Pal! If this were true then we wouldn't ever have to read the nonsense posted by Realistic Man, JIm, mabell, Luke Skywalker, City Person, ron erwin and many, many more less than articulate or thoughtful contributers and certainly not of the "same editorial bent."

By the way Geoff, I think that displaying an obviously patronizing attitude is PERSONALLY INSULTING, don't you or don't you get it?

So Long City Dude & Gang 2

Then City Guy accuses me of having (shudder) a personal/political agenda because I said:

.

This is the kind of thing I am talking about. This poster obviously has a bias and a politcal agenda.

City Person, Am I to assume you have no bias, position or agenda on anything? If this is so, what in the heck are you constantly trying to promote. And yeah I do have a position it's called social justice, respect for the planet and those we share it with, how's about you?

No, I'm not railing, and I'm discussing things that YOU spew, are you made of straw? You on the other hand tend to not reply to specific points raised when I reply to your posts. I can only presume that means you can't.

.

Though I am not pleased with the state of the world thanks to over thirty years of the neo-con agenda moving forward, I'm not angry, yet. I agree we have a democracy that functions really well, as long as you are among the coporate elite, for the rest of us, not so much. As somebody said,

"A Liberal is a Conservative who got a foreclosure notice!"
So Long for now Tyee, I hope you have a pleasantly mellow discussion board, I won't really be noticing.

It won't be much of a sacrifice. I can read Bill T. elsewhere and even have discussions with intelligent folks at his board. Rafe Mair seems to have lost his way, and the only thing wrong with Terry Glavin pieces online is they can't be burned like a hard copy.

As to the fluff, Rolling Stone and the Georgia Straigt do both better. So Long....

Been forgetting

As a local I must say (and have been meaning to point out) that you certainly could have found a better graphic image to accompany this story. Even a picture of the TV Tower in question would have been more appropriate, not to mention visually less offensive, than what is apparently a picture of "a" City Person hollaring into a cell phone.

kootcoot (KUTCAT)

kootcoot, regarding the picture, your more generous than me, first off, Who in hell wears a suit in New Denver or any small town in the interior. Than Again, its as you say its a city guy. When I first looked at the picture I thought , hmmm, unshaven, screaming at the phone, possibly one those lost souls on Vancouver's mean streets, or, maybe phoneing his dealer,has just found out his drugs have jumped up 43% due to higher gas prices.

Maybe for you.

Gwest, there will always be naysayers and pessimists in life. In my experience, optimists tend to live more productive and happy lives than pessimists. There have been doom sayers since the beginning of time and guess what? It hasn't happened yet.

I am fortunate to know a lot of creative, energetic people doing a lot of creative and energetic things. These are the people I choose to surround myself with. If you preach doom all day, it is hard to see anything positive. But in life, there are two kinds of people; doers and complainers.

And frankly (no pun intended) nobody is going to change anything preaching to the choir here. Perhaps getting more involved in the real world (vs this cyber world) might have more positive results, the results that you may desire.

Kootcoot

well, thats a real loss. I always perked up at his often excellent writing and humour and wit...I never read r/man and city person et al
Soon I`ll be scrolling blankly glassy eyed top to bottom.
My wife was a long time reader here for a long time but lit out awhile back with the advent of the censorship/moderation...guess I`ll join her
Hey kootcoot...wait up!

woody

You're right, that was the 'nominal' justification for the All Comments/Best Comments (default) dichotomy.

I'm sure you'll remember that I have been 'agin it from the beginning. Those who consider themselves 'regulars' (and I'm glad you're one of those) would never do anything but opt for All Comments. You miss so much - often a lot of it more interesting and insightful (and sometimes better written) than whatever tiny portion makes the 'Best Comments' grade.

Especially on some stories, the asides and meanderings and diversions of All Comments make the slim choices of the Best Comments censor pale by comparison.

A simple audit of the situation will confirm this for anyone who is interested.

As to rating comments with the 'best' label...why bother? I never go there anyway - I make my own judgments - I don't need anyone else to do it for me. And if something's not worth reading...I don't read it.

Simple.

I think management should go back to the old system - keep the 'offensive comment' button as a red light to the editors that something needs dealing with and move on to more important stuff than rating the evanescent meanders of a bunch of anonymous posters.

Great talkin' to you. There's one other thing I should mention. I have observed that an absolutely lead pipe cinch way to ensure that a comment is not rated in the BEST column is to make some kind of obviously critical remark about the journalist. The tendency around here tends to the thin-skinned - have you noticed that?

On the other hand, compared with the absolute senseless censorship of everything that doesn't cleave to the party line on any one of a long list of nominally conservative or right wing boards, Tyee is a model of even-handedness and good sense.

My view.

City Person

As I pointed out above - the kind of overtly 'personal' conclusion - on the basis of no evidence whatsoever - that some other anonymous poster has an optimistic or pessimistic personality is so pointlessly ignorant and off the chart that it does not even require merit a response. However you claim to be ‘new’ here so, please read again what I wrote above.

And save your lectures for the children and immature adults you apparently prefer to associate with in real life. Your Pollyanna attitudes have nothing to do with a discussion of ideas and philosophies or the state of the province and the world - unless your favourite philosopher is Walt Disney and you yourself are only 12 years old.

Come to me with facts and data - and I'll deal with you - like realisticman (whom you resemble in a wide range of characteristics and beliefs) you seem to think that your happy little band of friends and neighbours is in any way representative of the wider reality around you.

Until then, please don't bother me with your simpering - I threw away my copy of Norman Vincent Peale years ago and I don't watch Oprah.

If I were looking to pump myself up I'd watch a Swartzenerger movie...

You know nothing about me – please don’t assume you do.

Thin skinned

G West said, The tendency around here tends to the thin-skinned - have you noticed that?

Thin skinned, yes, I agree and possibly beyond. Last fall I received a personal reprimand (e mail) from the moderator. Could it be possible that he may jaundiced towards certain commentators?

I prefaced the claim with "probably"

Just to keep you happy I will use someone else's words to support my point as you so often do.

From this article.

"Some Positive Cell Phone Statistics
Although it is becoming increasingly apparent that cell phone usage on the road is a safety concern, it is also true that wireless technologies do provide benefits to safety and traffic management. The Cellular Telephone and Internet Association reported that drivers using cell phones place 139,000 emergency calls each day, something that state police are generally appreciate. A 1997 study in the New England Journal of Medicine also found that emergency response times have been reduced due to cell phone usage, helping to save lives. The NHTSA study showed that drivers with cell phones are able to contact authorities about road hazards, traffic, or road rage and problem drivers. Cell phones have also proven to be beneficial in a drivers personal security by allowing drivers to contact help quickly when they experience roadside mechanical problems."

That was the reason for my comment and I amazed at the fancy dancing you do to try and overwhelm somebody else's POV. I mean dragging in the red herring of 9/11. Really!

Might as well toss out your computer as well.

BTW you didn't refute anything in 20 min. of my first post but you did manage to go off on one of you famous tangents. I'm talking lives and you talk property damage.

Offensive

I find that the latest post above by city person is about the worst I've read yet. The all knowing one finally shows true colours as he points out our faults. Go tell the third world that doom doesn't exist. Tell it to all the farmers who have lost their land. Tell it to the fishermen who no longer fish. I smell a big fat, rich, born again christian, neocon rat, when I read crap like that. Pompous, I made it why can't you attitude. You who deserves what ever fate for not picking yourself up by the bootstraps, mentality.

Think I'll stick around just to remind you CP, that you're anything but aware of the world around you.....

4th Grade math...

It's easy to educate the youth about the dangers of unchecked economic growth. The math is easy to understand. Doubling times and exponential growth, pretty basic math. A finite list of resources being used at unprecedented rates to create wealth which will not last. Why is it that adults don't understand it? Why play stupid when it comes to awarness? I just don't understand sticking your head in the sand or more likely, the disneyworld cloud....

No wonder their arguments are always so childish.

Deju-vu again Mr. West!

Had I not tilted after reading CP's drivel above, I would have read your reply and saved myself a post! I know we have posted identical thoughts at the same time in the past. A good day to you fine sir and keep up the good work! We've got the dolphins on our side! How can we be wrong?!

GW

Mind if I call you Dubya? Is that a quote from you or from you apparently deceased alter ego. Or is it maybe like the ending of Primal Fear? There never really was a GW………

sorry snert - too late - the train has left the station

How many emergency calls are made on land lines, pray tell?

I think anyone who calls himself a nutter ought to let everyone else choose their own names - I know you're more into being trite and vindictive than actually supporting your opinions with anything other than bile though so nutter does seem apt.
By the way, do you actually understand the principle of ‘marginal’ rates of tax or not?

Please let me know and I’ll post a simple explanation.
If you want to make yourself look even more foolish than you already are then go for it my friend.

But please, keep coming round, I enjoy whacking your piñata

btw snert...can you actually read?

If you can, try reading this:

Distracted Driving: A study sponsored by Nationwide Insurance, which surveyed 1,200 drivers between the ages of 18 and 60, found that 81 percent of drivers “multitasked” (engaged in distracting behaviors while driving) at least sometimes. One in eight said he or she changed radio stations or CDs. The same proportion acknowledged drinking a beverage. Almost three-quarters talked on a cell phone, and 68 percent ate a snack. Twenty-three percent acknowledged they experienced road rage and 4 percent said they have driven while intoxicated.

The January 2007 study also found that the youngest drivers, age 18 to 27, were the most likely to always multitask while driving—35 percent. Thirty percent of drivers age 28 to 44 always multitasked and 21 percent of the 45-to 60-year-olds always multitasked.

Some form of driver inattention was involved in almost 80 percent of crashes and 65 percent of near-crashes within three seconds of the event, according to an April 2006 study conducted by the Virginia Tech Transportation Institute and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). The 100-Car Naturalistic Driving Study broke new ground—earlier research found that driver inattention was responsible for 25 to 30 percent of crashes. The 2006 study found that the most common distraction was the use of cell phones, followed by drowsiness. However, cell phone use was far less likely to be the cause of a crash or near-miss than other distractions. For example, while reaching for a moving object such as a falling cup increased the risk of a crash or near-crash by nine times, talking or listening on a hand-held cell phone only increased the risk by 1.3 times. The study tracked the behavior of the 241 drivers of 100 vehicles for more than one year. The drivers were involved in 82 crashes, 761 near-crashes and 8,295 critical incidents. (See also Cell Phones and Driving.)

and this:

Cell Phone Use: In July 2007, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the National Center for Statistics and Analysis released the results of their National Occupant Protection Use Survey (NOPUS), which found that in 2006 5 percent of drivers used hand-held cell phones, down from 6 percent in 2005, the first decline since the survey began tracking hand-held cell phone use in 2000. The decline in use occurred in a number of driver categories, including female drivers (down from 8 to 6 percent), drivers in the Midwest (down from 8 to 4 percent), drivers age 25 to 69 (down from 6 to 4 percent) and drivers of passenger cars (down from 6 to 4 percent) to name but a few. NOPUS is a probability-based observational survey. Data on driver cell-phone use were collected at random stop signs or stoplights only while vehicles were stopped and only during daylight hours. (See also Cell Phones and Driving.)

Many studies have shown that using hand-held cell phones while driving can constitute a hazardous distraction. However, the theory that hands-free sets are safer has been challenged by the findings of several studies. A study from researchers at the University of Utah, published in the summer 2006 issue of Human Factors concludes that talking on a cell phone while driving is as dangerous as driving drunk, even if the phone is a hands-free model. An earlier study by researchers at the university found that motorists who talked on hands-free cell phones were 18 percent slower in braking and took 17 percent longer to regain the speed they lost when they braked.

Not quite gone....yet,

I had to drop by to see if I had made certain posters' day or anything by explaining why I won't be around in the future, and this from woody caught my eye.

Thin skinned, yes, I agree and possibly beyond. [b]Last fall I received a personal reprimand (e mail) from the moderator. Could it be possible that he may jaundiced towards certain commentators?[/b]

You must be really "special" as I haven't had the courtesy of even an acknowledging reply from the Tyee when I wrote to make serious inquiries that I thought were appropriate to be private. That's why even to point out technical problems or suggested soulutions I've resorted to putting them on the board, no matter how off the subject of the discussion.

special surprise

kootcoot, if you want to call having someone cut you out a new arse hole as being special , then, yes, I guess Im special.

Marginal?

Gdub…I do understand marginal as the logic you use when you’re way behind in the conversation and are trying to avoid taking the first step to solving your problem – admitting that you’re wrong.

At no time in my recent discussion of taxes did I restrict my comments to income tax, marginal tax rates, Federal, Provincial or Municipal tax rates or any such limitations. I simply said that my tax burden is too high. You fell into the trap of only considering income tax and claiming my estimates were wrong.

You blew it GW but it seems that you lack the courage or compassion to confess. Try it, you’ll feel better and be better for it……

City Person: Quote:In my

City Person:

If you preach doom all day, it is hard to see anything positive. But in life, there are two kinds of people; doers and complainers.

I hear ya! ;)

One thing that ya forgot though... is humour. And for that I will award Frank top prize with this quote directed at me: lol

Oh Come Now G West....

G West:

How many times have you come to some kooky conclusion and subsequent statement that I'm Kevin Falcon and/or work for some BC gov't public affairs bureau? lol

G West

I can read. The problem here is that you are running on your own track, following you own agenda and participating in your own conversation. Yes the train has left the station but it certainly wasn't the one I was trying to catch.

Once again you have simply failed to counter my original conjecture. "Cell phones have probably saved way more lives than they have cost."

It appears that you equate cell phone use with only driving and have decided that venue is the only context in which you are going to carry on this excuse of a conversation. Congratulations on managing to fabricate an issue where non was intended.

Keep up the good work.

Oh BTW, isn't it about time for you to say you'll never do this again or have you completely slipped a cog and forgotten you usual final or is that final, final response?

And you still haven't posted a single piece

And you still haven't posted a single piece of data or evidence to support that statement.

There have been enough fatalities in accidents involving cell phones to rack up thousands of points against your claim which, is, as it was two days ago - nothing more than an idle speculation on your part.

But that's okay, snert I'm pleased to see that you're running true to form. As to your intentions, your infrequent interjections of bile aren't hard to categorize.

True to form, you always stoop to personal and completely off topic remarks in the end.

As per usual.

Luke,

I've never once said you were Kevin Falcon - you appear to have at least some intelligence.

If you don't work for the public affairs bureau you ought to. Your kind of propaganda is the sort of thing folks charge for you know. Perhaps you could contact Stuart Chase for advice on getting a job there.

Cell phones save lives (maybe)

To G's credit, he's putting up facts and data... you're running on conjecture.

In our society, a land-line phone is rarely that far away. If we're really that keen on saving lives, we should just put portable defibrillators and first aid kits every couple of blocks in the city, and offer CPR training for free.

I don't have a huge problem with cellphones. But, people really could use them with a bit more manners and regard for everyone around them. The wannabe-gangbangers and their molls in my neighbourhood yakking away are almost as annoying as the Yaletown yuppies constantly nattering into their phones on the other side of town.

Driving and talking on a cellphone however, is simply not on in my books. Next time you hear a biker scream "Shut Up AND Drive" at you... as you chit-chat and attempt to control a one ton unguided missile, be sure to say "Hi Stump!"

Stump

G West has put up nothing. He has fixated on the use of cell phones in cars. I am not disputing his numbers.

Although the figure "139,000 emergency calls each day" refers to calls made by drivers which incidentally qualifies as a fact it is a starting point for the concept that cell phones save lives. Now if he has figures that show somewhere near 139,000 cell phone induced accidents per day then he may be on to something.

Just to reiterate, cell phones are mobile communications devices that can be used in many different scenarios. It is my opinion that they are far more valuable for public safety than they are a public nuisance. That includes saving more lives than they could possibly cost.

Just to address your comment "In our society, a land-line phone is rarely that far away." Only if you can get people to open their doors. That is becoming more and more unlikely in this day and age.

FWIW I don't know if you have noticed the number of disappearing pay phones? They are being stolen or otherwise discombobulated and Telus is not bothering to replace them in high risk areas. So much for the availability of land lines.

Cell phones are only one of a multitude of distractions for drivers. Which is worse a driver distracted by a cell phone or one distracted by fighting kids? Both distractions are manageable. We would be far better off teaching drivers how to manage all distractions than fixating on only one form. We don't teach this and we should.

Distractions

Parents can't expect to drive without kids at some point. Not answering your phone is a rational, considerate choice considering the data linking its effects to being similar to impaired driving. No one forces you to answer the phone, or to not pull over and return the call when safe.

This is not a huge thing to ask of drivers (consideration) although if we were to judge drivers based upon their behaviour as I've observed it, common sense and consideration goes out the window when otherwise fine people get behind the wheel.

PROOF - cell phones save lives!

"During a blackout that plunged an operating room in Argentina into darkness while surgeons were removing an appendix from a patient they rounded up all the cell phones in the waiting rooms and used them to light the operating table and complete the surgery."

nice story happy

Are you sure you want to get into this snert?

Cell phone distraction causes 2,600 deaths and 330,000 injuries in the United States every year, according to the journal's publisher, the Human Factors and Ergonomics Society.

http://www.livescience.com/technology/050201_cell_danger.html

Please note

You're the last person who should talk about being manageable - please not the 'distraction' issue is directly addressed in the article.

A little more from CBS

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/12/02/tech/main531320.shtml

And then there's this

http://www.switched.com/2007/11/29/exploding-cell-phone-battery-causes-another-death/

http://redding.injuryboard.com/cell-phones-cause-deaths-inspire-new-california-laws.php

http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/22367

Your fixating

"Both sides admit the data are sketchy because there's no uniform standard for reporting accidents involving cell phones. And industry officials argue aren't the worst distraction."

I am not getting into anything. I don't dispute your numbers but throwing in a few exploding batteries does not exclude you from fixation. It's real easy to count/estimate casualties but a lot harder to prove befits when nobody bothers to track them.

Now as far as managing distractions is concerned. It can be done and it can also be taught. All that is needed is the will. Right now that is only half hearted.

Baloney

Cell phones are a life-risk to the people who use them and to all others exposed to them when such users should be concentrating on something else...like driving or operating machinery.

They kill people, as confirmed by the Harvard Study I cited.

As for benefits, I haven't seen many - most people misuse, overuse and abuse the things - they are, in the end, little more than a corporate profit centre, a tool in the hands of criminals and a tax on the stupid.

People should be taught to be confident and self-assured individuals who don't need to be in constant communication, telling their stupid friends what they're doing at this or that particular moment.

I would wager that well over 50% of cell phone conversations in this country are narcissistic and unnecessary - perhaps far more than 50%.

G West - Yep, You've Made You're Point...

Yep, driving and cell phone use can be a toxic cocktail and leads to accidents as well as deaths. I agree with ya!

But you should be straightforward with your argument and come right out with suggesting a ban on cell phone use while driving.

I would agree with such a ban... I personally pull over (never to answer a call) but to return a call when I see fit... although admittedly I do utilize the cell phone when on the freeway (no pedestrians or intersections to deal with).

In fact, the province of Nova Scotia has implemented a proposal for such a cell phone ban.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2007/11/23/road-safety.html

Apparently there is opposition from the CAA as well as the CSC, who suggest that hand-free devices would then prevail.

I haven't seen one of those hands-free devices for at least 10 - 15 years 'cause nobody uses 'em as far as I know ... People just use their hand held cell... but I digress.

http://halifax.metronews.ca/index.cfm?sid=84603&sc=89

A vehicle cell phone ban will eventually also become legislation here in BC, but only when public pressure becomes extant.

Such public pressure only comes about when high profile media stories inflame the public. Unfortunately, that's a fact of life but that still will/should not preclude someone from pulling over and making an emergency call.

My first post in this thread herein came to the conclusion of the unforeseen emergency.

And in consideration, the poster snert has brought other reasonable cases to our attention about the the unforeseen emergency from other perspectives.

Frankly, it's not cool to attempt to denigrate snert who also has posted some reasonable data and arguments in that regard.

In fact, snert has not previously disputed your automobile/ cell phone accident causation:

Nah. It's actually salami

We're carrying on two different conversations. You won yours.

denigrate snert?

Pray tell, where and when have I done that?

The snert trashes his own reputation - believe me, around here that's not a difficult thing to do. Particularly for someone who voluntarily chose ‘that’ name:
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/msnert.html

I asked for evidence of the life saving value of cell-phones and he's provided none.

OTOH, I've marched forth an increasing volume and variety of evidence from which even a jaundiced reviewer like yourself could only conclude that cell phones and cars don't mix. All vehicles should be equipped with an electronic device which locks cell phones when the transmission of a vehicle is engaged - there is simply no excuse for permitting anyone to drive a vehicle while their judgment is as badly impaired as if they were drunk. My remarks apply equally, mutatis mutandis, to hands free devices since the data shows conclusively that they DO NOT HELP the situation.

I realize that the snert has raised the white flag – my objective though is wider and more comprehensive. After all, that’s what real debate is all about: I think the whole cell phone industry is an abomination - I'm just getting started.

As noted at top, this article as about one British Columbia community trying to exercise its democratic will. It appears that both you and the snert are troubled by occasions when people with an independent and democratic frame of mind actually question corporate and bureaucratic, not to mention moral orthodoxy.

I celebrate it and try to encourage others to spread the good news.

The world would operate far more smoothly and several tens of thousands of people throughout it (not to mention the property damage) would be alive each year if there were NO cell phones.

I realize you think such an attitude is the expression of a Luddite.

I assure you I'm not one. If the snert had advanced a scintilla of evidence that cell phones have positive effects of a measurable kind that comes anywhere near to balancing their negative impact on lives and civility, not to mention criminality, bad taste and deteriorating public discourse, I'd be glad to acknowledge same.

Happy presented one case where a gaggle of cell phones are claimed to have substituted for a single flashlight in an operating theatre.

I allow you draw your own conclusions - this argument is a joke.

But to suggest I'm 'fixated' on anything is absurd.

freeway schmeeway

That's ludicrous. I hope you don't kill someone.

New Denverites will not see the light

G West said, Happy presented one case where a gaggle of cell phones are claimed to have substituted for a single flashlight in an operating theatre.

Well there you go, look at all the uses of the cell phone that the New Denverites will miss out on by not allowing them in their fair town. There are a couple more examples of utilizing the cell phone light. In Moose Leg Saskatewan, a farmer returning late at night with his small Lear jet was unable to land in his pasture due a lack of runway lights. His neighbours realizing his plight , quickly gathered all the cell phones in their area, they laid out the cells on the outside edge of his landing strip allowing for a safe night landing. Then there was a birthday party some folks were holding for a six year old in "Crushed Nuts Alberta" ( not far from smashed in buffalo head). The dad had forgot to buy birthday candles for the cake , as it 732 kms to the nearest store and time was of of the essence, they quickly gathered up six cell phones , then inserted them upright into the birthday cake to replace the candles, turned off the house lights and sang happy birthday to the overjoyed child. The uses of the cell phone is endless, e.g. in the vibrator mode a woman can, oh, just a minute I hear my cell ringing , dam it wheres my wife.

Ma Bell getting long in the tooth

The land-line is going to be around for a while but the future for New Denver is going to be wireless. Who's going to invest in new land-lines?

Telcos have had to be nimble in these changing times. For one thing, they're doing away with pay phones. AT&T is dumping the pay phones it operates in 13 states, and will exit the business completely by the end of next year. The company says there are 1 million pay phones still left in the U.S.

China now has more handsets than wired phones, 340 million versus 317 million.

India, "All I can say is that by 2010 the market is estimated to have 400-500 million subscribers".

Worldwide, the number of mobile users outstripped the number of fixed lines in 2002.

Driving down a city street recently a cyclist zipping down the inside plowed into a car that turned into a parking spot. I was on my mobile and dispatching an ambulance before the driver even got out of her car. The ambulance arrived in less than five minutes! If they are, "They are proof the devil interfered in the lives of men", then I'm sure that the cyclist has now gone over to the dark side.

Ah yes, China

defintely a bastion of free speech and democracy:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/15/world/asia/15cnd-tibet.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Don't get me started at India as an avatar - It's a great place for Billionaries but not a very good place for the BILLION victims of globalization who live there - you might want to read Raj Patel's book on that subject, it's called Stuffed And Starved

http://stuffedandstarved.org/drupal/frontpage

I notice Entwhistle's latest statement on Telus's depressing economic results last quarter noted that their cell customers aren't stickin' around too long either.

You definitely deserve a medal - did you use your cell phone to light the field of vision while emergency aid was administered to the injured cyclist?

Wheres my Bong.

I forgot to mention about the 67 year old Hippie in Pump Handle Alberta who was attempting to locate his Bong one stormy evening while the power was off, unable to locate his flash light, and with desperation setting as he hadn't had a toke for a couple of hours, remembering his cell was holstered to his belt he utilized its light to locate his Bong in the darken cabin.

Sorry

Oh, I'm sorry Mr. West, were we only to discuss telephony in western democracies and small towns in BCs heartland? Sorry to taint your fiefdom with a global perspective. Am I a troll, again? Or still?
I know you're in rapture with the civilized states of Scandinavia. Will you be going to the games?

Finland, the land of mobile phones (you may call them 'cell phones' if you are in north America). It was in Finland where in the early 80's practically everyone had already a mobile phone -outside Scandinavia, the world was still back in the age of those heavy and bulky, brick-like primitive models. It was in Finland where a paper company called 'Nokia' started manufacturing plastic boots, and because the business didn't do very well, then they tried making small mobile phones -that ended up working much better for them... Now, get ready for the latest invention from the country of mobile phones: Mobile Phone Throwing.

Today, the mobile phone is an essential part of our life. It connects us to the world, but when you most need it the battery runs out or your sweetheart doesn't answer or some one doesn’t return your call. Hope, anticipation, passion and frustration concentrates on a mobile phone. If you know what I'm talking about, this new sport is for you. Mobile Phone Throwing is a light and modern Finnish sport that suits for people of all ages and, most importantly, it is the only sport where you can pay back all the frustrations and disappointments caused by these modern equipments.

The Mobile Phone World Championships, Savolinna, Finland

Every year, during the last week of August, hundreds of people from all around the world gather at the small Finnish town of Savonlinna for the annual Mobile Phone Throwing World Championships. The Mobile Phone Throwing World Championships are just that: "throw them away, as far as you can!"

Sorry too if your Telus shares aren't performing like they used to. Price rises soon? We Canadians have it too easy.

OTTAWA – July 12, 2007 - The Canadian Wireless Telecommunications Association (CWTA) welcomes a new comprehensive report by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) that found mobile phone customers in Canada enjoy some of the most competitive wireless prices among the 30 member countries of the OECD. According to the OECD’s recently published biennial Communications Outlook 2007, Canadian customers fare significantly better than their neighbours in the US and Mexico in almost all usage categories.

As for your nomination for a medal for me, I don't think so. In my anger, I used my phone to whack the cyclist where it hurt, since it was he that recklessly zipped up the inside damaging the poor woman's vehicle. I then pressed the flash key and went back to my chat with my travel agent that was trying to wangle me an upgrade on my Maui ticket.

GWest

You'd prefer that we keep them mute, like the good old days before communications, I guess. You afraid of loosing your comfy lifestyle if we let them catch us up?

* Angela Balakrishnan
* The Guardian,
* Thursday February 7 2008

Mobile phones, the internet and telecentres play a vital role in supporting the livelihoods of the poor and spurring growth in developing countries, a report by the UN said yesterday.

But the digital divide between the developing and developed world is still wide, the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development warned, and it urged governments and overseas aid to target policies for expanding information and communication technology.

Unctad said developing countries not only benefit from IT access itself, but also from the spread of knowledge which follows. Surveys show technology can drive innovation and help to create finance structures to encourage business start-ups.

...

Mobile phones are the main form of digital progress helping the poor and bridging the connectivity divide. The number of subscribers in developing nations has almost tripled in the past five years and now accounts for 58% of subscribers worldwide.

Africa has seen the greatest take-up: subscriptions have quadrupled since 2001, and last year they hit 200m - an average of more than 20 cell phones for every 100 people.

"Mobile telephony has practically replaced fixed lines in many countries," said Susan Teltscher, Unctad's chief of IT policy and analysis. "It has an importance beyond the educated, richer, skilled part of the population, and provides an entry level into digital literacy."

What white flag.

If you are conducting a battle it has to be on some strange plant occupied only by yourself.

We are talking past each other, you with your voluminous data to back up an item that is not in dispute and I on the other hand talking about something completely different. Facts, facts and more fact and in reality they refute nothing and further they are irrelevant.

Some good must come out of the "139,000 emergency calls each day" but nobody keeps records of when things go right. Hard to get reliable statistics when all people are concerned about is casualties.

Now don't get me wrong because I am not throwing in the towel or raising any white flag, there is no need. You and I have not been involved in the same conversation. If you haven't recognized this then you have a serious problem.

My words - "Cell phones have probably saved way more lives than they have cost. Emergency situations where time can be a critical factor can even arise in small backwoods communities." - I stick by them.

I like the following.

Did you just say that only people who agree with you are part of the "democratic process"? This article does have space for comments and it is not restricted as to those for or against the issue at hand.

This is hilarious. There's the "straw man" argument and now the "grasping at straws" argument.

R/man

The efficacy of cell phones as a development tool is vastly over-rated; just like corporate globalization.

As for the Finnish miracle – no doubt some brilliant marketing genius found a way to appeal to human emotions at their shallowest and most narcissistic…what else is new?

That’s what corporations and PR have been doing for generations – and the world is vastly worse off because of it – Rent the film THE CORPORATION and stop wasting my time.

Then read Patel's book.

As to disagreeing with groups like the WTO and the world bank and the other promoters of the kind of thing you love - it ain't working - the farming people of India - the small land holders and the people who actually care for the land and its future are being driven off their land by this abomination. Suicide – by ingesting pesticides – is rampant.

Wake up – you are selling death and destruction and pretending it’s a pot of gold.

I'm proud to say what you and they are promoting is failed dream and a pack of lies.

You might not want to admit it, but giving over our future to a few big corporate giants - especially in the field of food, agriculture and sustainability, is the last thing we should do.

I don’t care who thinks cell phones are any kind of a savior for anything – although they are an absolutely wonderful device for coordinating criminal activities and creating remotely detonated explosions like the ones Spain that killed scores of people

It's not connectivity that will save India's poor - read Patel's book and then we'll talk.

Snert:
I could care less whether you agree with me and the majority of the people in New Denver – neither you nor I gets a vote. We should be so lucky as to actually have some control over our futures and our environment.

As for that last remark snert

Pleas don't think I have anything against you continuing to post whatever you wish to write.

In fact, I encourage you do do so - I find it quite amusing.

And I know from talking to a fairly wide circle of friends who read the Tyee that they do too.

So please, keep it up. And by the way, if you're keeping track, please add the following mayhem to your little tally of cellphone benefits:

Muslim militants were blamed for setting off 10 bombs in backpacks triggered by cellphones. The blasts tore through commuter trains during Madrid's morning rush hour, killing 191 people and wounding more than 1,700.

I'll keep you posted as the score increases.

Muslim militants

Quite fascinating but not in context. Radio controllers have been have been used to set off explosives long before cell phones came out. Just another tool of the trade. Close but no cigar. Keep trying though.

I love your little personal asides. "And I know from talking to a fairly wide circle of friends who read the Tyee that they do too."

You are adopting the tactics of a loser and I thought better of you.

No you didn't - if you thought better of me it would show

It doesn't - you're nothing but a cybernetic pothole.

Completely oblivious to anything or anyone besides yourself - it's obvious from everything you post - all about YOU. You aren’t the slightest bit interested in either debate or argument and certainly not about ideas.

Like I said, keep up the entertainment.

Now, where are all those lives saved by cell phones?

Aren't you glad you're popular?

West

Clearly this poster considers the United Nations Conference on Trade and Development an irrelevant debating society.

Is that how you'd categorize it GWest?

You know that under their Millennium Development Goals they hope to make available the benefits of new technologies, especially information and communications.

I now understand your position.

How's your book on Tyee coming along. I expect it to be quite a rightists diatribe.

I can just hear your circle of friends expanding.

Odd though it sounds suspiciously like a hat band getting over stressed.

Kind of like the old plane crash riddle that ends, so on which side of the border do they bury the survivors. You know how that goes.

Anyhow, stats for casualties are easy to come by. You try and find some that answer your question. Good luck on that. You've already been given the one meaningful number that I can come up with and you try to overwhelm it with exploding batteries and terrorist attacks.

BTW say hi to your friend Alcibiades. A valued member of the circle no doubt.

Still nothing substantive - but loads of excuses

Where's that old debating spirit snert?

I didn't find your solitary data point very meaningful or material.

Furthermore, I responded immediately after you'd posted that item about 911 calls - you can go back and check if you like.

I will happily take this opportunity to introduce Alcibiades to any newcomers who might not know about him - and thank you for the opportunity to do that.

One of the few useful things I've learned from corporate culture and hegemony...and the advertising here is free to boot.

It's more than a year since Alcibiades retired - some people around here now may never have heard of him...thanks again snert.

Catch up on Alcibiades here:

http://thetyee.ca/Views/Teacherdiaries/2007/02/27/BoyTrouble/

in the comments.

Yawn!

!

Pretty Much R/Man

Raj Patel spent time with a number of these organizations when he was working on his doctorate - they are mostly a useless talk shop of self-absorbed academics dominated by self-interested foundations and corporate-compromised universities.

READ THE BOOK, please, because the people you believe in are dangerous.

You might be interested to find out how high the levels of suicide have become in rural India - you know what their chosen method of offing themselves is?

Ingesting agricultural chemicals.

How many years out of the last 8 has the world not met its food needs R/man?

Check it out my friend, your avatars with their pie charts and projections are nothing but a make work project for people with big hearts and little or no practical sense who probably couldn’t do a ‘real’ job to save their lives. They’re too busy networking with their friends.

Let me know what your favourite recipe for cell phone soup is.

Oh and by the way

Here's some more reading for you.

If you want to go a little farther down the road to self-knowledge and enlightenment you need to know a bit more about our neighbours across the 49th and how hopelessly compromised their institutions have become.

Learning about the US Supreme Court might begin to disabuse you of your naive faith in official bodies and UN groups and think-tanks and such like:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/16/magazine/16supreme-t.html?_r=1&ref=magazine&oref=slogin

If anything saves the world it will be when people regain their critical faculties and forego the idea that such groups will do anything except look to their own growth and survival.

Even a guy like Obama - who pays lip service to change - is now spinning wildly to deny any connection to things his own pastor has said about the undeniably racist character of many elements of American culture and government.

So much for speaking truth to power.

The book?

It's coming along just fine - recent development though - I can't decide how to handle the uncanny similarities between the City Person character and another anonymous poster who calls 'himself' realisticman.

I hadn't expected to have to deal with two such individuals with their almost identical naive faith in the false promise of technology to save the world. And they both purport to be world travellers and eternal optimists as well.

An interesting late development in a narrative that is already, as they say, too strange for fiction.

Blame it on the cell.

A common phrase used to be "The devil made me do it" now its "The cell phone made me do it" I predict some nut bar will use it in court before long, to defend himself from some stupid act, stating, It {the cell) warped my brain, that's why Im so goofy.

Dunno about that, woody

But I did come across this:

http://www.10news.com/investigations/13262329/detail.html

GWest

In response to my question on the UN Conference on Trade and Development,

"Is that how you'd categorize it GWest?"

You reply,

You may be interested to know that these words in my question, "irrelevant debating society", which you say you pretty much agree with were said by George W. Bush.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030213-3.html

p.27

cont.

George W. Bush, Feb 2003

I'm optimistic that the U.N. Security Council will rise to its responsibilities, and this time ensure enforcement of what it told Saddam Hussein he must do. See, I believe when it's all said and done, free nations will not allow the United Nations to fade into history as an ineffective, irrelevant debating society.

Squaring the circle.

Like a stopped clock

Bush is probably correct a couple times each day.

Please READ Patel’s book - bush's assessment of the UN as a useless debating society has more to do with the fact that HE can't run it quite as easily as he'd like.

Not that he didn't try.

Do you have a closet full of red herrings that have nothing to do with the way the security council inevitably buckled before the onslaught of the US juggernaut and participated in a pointless and criminal war in IRAQ.

I'm not saying the UN couldn't be useful, I'm saying that the way it is currently dominated by a few compromised foundations (which owe their existence to corporate patrons) and a lot of well-meaning but largely useless technocrats and academics means that it often does more harm than good.

You might try to actually understand someone else's position my friend - mind you, as Barack Obama says: 'You're not working that hard!'

In addition, where’s the recipe for cell-phone soup? I’d wager there’s a large and growing mountain of cell phone junk piling up in China to rival the piles of crap Edward Burtynsky photographed there a couple years ago.

You may be right woody

I didn't write the story...but the investigation said the Spanish bombs were detonated with 'cell phones'...

Truth to tell I don't even know what a GMRS radio is and I don't have a cell phone - never had had one and I'm not planning to get one.

I like the fact that when I'm not at home or at the office no one can bother me; I don't have to remember to charge the damn thing and I don't get another bill for something I can easily do without every month or so.

I doubt I'd be a fan of GMRS radios either.

I was looking for some further evidence that cell phones are being used by criminals in new and innovative ways and came across this from Texas where they're trying to thwart the nefarious use of prepaid phones or ‘burners’..

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22940064/

Ever heard of an off switch.

They do have them you know.

As usual, you're still not reading, eh?

I don't have a cell phone - have never had a cell phone - will never have a cell phone.

If I knew how to turn off every cell phone within a 1/2 mile radius of wherever I am or any member of my family is, I might not be so concerned about their destructive and distracting power.

I have a feeling that many people feel exactly the same way, so, if you can tell me how to get legal access to all those 'off' switches I'll certainly do my part and shut them off.

imposing towers

Twice now, my neighbours and I have fought proposed 50-metre cell towers in our faces. I learned much from researching the issue, like how this is a global issue and how the cell companies use their cumulative experience of what works: slippery tactics, blatant lies, appeals to greed and fear etcetera.

In approaching one elderly couple about putting a tower on their property, the representative explained how the husband could die of a heart attack without cell phone coverage in the area.

Property values will not be affected (Ha!) Ten-metre trees will conceal the 50-metre tower (Ha!). There is no evidence of health issues regarding microwave radiation (Ha!). LIES, LIES and more LIES!

One argument pitched to local officials was that truckers needed cell phones for their work. Yes, while driving. No thanks, I say.

It was in China where I witnessed the ultimate cell phone inanity: teenage zombies out strolling by evening for lack of a mall, each with a cell phone pressed to an ear and waving to the other party across the street. Was opium ever this good?

As usual, you choose to ignore the point.

I guess cell phones can smell fear. That's why none of them want you.

Simply the greatest advance in communication technology and all you can do is find fault.

As I mentioned earlier on in this thread there is a really good chance you will rue the fact that you have chosen to not avail yourself of this technology. I hope it doesn't cost someone their life.

FWIW I think that if voice mail was made a standard feature of all accounts it may go at least part way to alleviating some of the inattentiveness that can cause MVAs. More people might be less likely to answer their phone while driving.

I have no idea how many people have this feature as an option but if they are not the majority then mandatory voice mail may just help make the transition to cell less driving a bit easier.

I'll live with the consequences

Are you in the business of selling the crack cocaine of communications technology?

Seems to me that you've reached rock bottom when you try to suggest I may rue the day I DON'T have a cell phone.

Dream on - as for their usefulness as a method of summoning emergency help...spare me.

Emergency personnel got to accidents just fine in the years before the cell phone contagion started.
Remember that?
You might have a case in 3rd world countries where there is no communications infrastructure.

Sadly, there they have little or no emergency infrastructure either.

So it's a moot point.

Are you a former addict?

Maybe you are afraid of becoming a cell phone junkie.

You seem negatively preoccupied with the ability to communicate quickly from wherever one is. Remember the Off Switch.

Who cares if even 99% of all the cell phone calls are trivial. At least people are talking to each other. Sure you get some overuse but I suspect that the number of addicted people or even those who might actually have OCD is minimal.

Finally I'm down to your level. Now maybe you will see that although the technology is far from perfect it is still undergoing positive changes and in 10 years time may not even resemble what it is now.

Below are some links to useful technologies associated with wireless networks. I had to use the cached page for the Wiki stuff. I wonder if RM caused it to implode.

http://www.onstar.com/us_english/jsp/index.jsp

http://www.gpspolice.com/home/?gclid=CNvgrLmylZICFQEgYAodEjoV2w

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:f2ei2AHo9PwJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_tracking+GPS+Tracking&hl=en&gl=ca&strip=1

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:FF6895TWRkcJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OnStar+GM+%2BOnstar&hl=en&gl=ca&strip=1

As with everything else there are pluses and minuses but I do believe the pluses hold the balance by a large margin.

for emergencies ring 2 short and 1 long

GWest said, Emergency personnel got to accidents just fine in the years before the cell phone contagion started.

Sure the Emergency crew got there, but 5 out of 10 times the hearse hauled them away, due to poor response time.

jwlaurie: Quote:As a

jwlaurie:

Yeah, over the years, having witnessed head-on collisions on River Road in Delta and Hwy 3 west of Keremeos, the cell phone certainly provided at least 10 - 15 minutes in times savings for first responders.

Again with contacting the BC Forest Service along a rural highway regarding a brush fire on Hwy 97.

And again involving an eratic driver who appeared to be impaired in Metro Vancouver.

I agree with ya - time is of the essence in these matters.

Still trying valiantly to counter-balance

Still trying vainly to counter-balance that Harvard study.

Still with naught but anecdote to support your contention.

If cell phones could be programmed to do nothing BUT call 911 you MIGHT have a point.

Sadly, they aren't, and in most of the areas where time is of the essence - in the boondocks where very few of the worst highway accidents occur - it's gonna take more than a few minutes for emergency personnel to arrive anyway - if you can manage to get cell phone reception.

Try getting a normal cell phone to even work along a rural highway. LOL.

I haven't noticed a marked reduction in road fatalities since the advent of cell phones; especially since the current excuse for a government pulled down the speed cameras and deaths and injuries climbed.

If the things save so many lives why can't anyone show me any data?

I'll tell you why, because they don't.

Most accidents happen in urban areas and there are lots of other ways to contact the police and the paramedics. Who frequently can't get to the scene of the accident quickly because of the crowds standing round watching the victims bleed.

Local "heroes" brandishing cell phones ‘texting’ ( is that even a ‘word’ – it surely is offensive) their friends with a picture of the mayhem.

Are you sure you don't sell the things snert?

I've never known you to be such a dog with a bone about an issue before.

Get rid of the things and put your 60 bucks a month toward something worthwhile - like clothes and food for a kid whose parents can't afford it.

Cell phones are a narcissistic self-indulgence marketed by sales personnel who are part of huge pyramid scheme.

Go NEW DENVER!

I don't expect the compromised and narcoleptic residents of the megalopolis to understand. Already inured to good sense and decency, they think it's actually 'important' to be in touch with all their stupid, imagination challenged and insipid friends ALL the time.

They are, for the most point, so inured to the reality of actual human interaction that they might as well be machines anyway.

Carry on talking.

G West: Quote:Try getting a

G West:

As for someone who professes not to own a cell phone, how would ya know what works... where?

Sheesh, G West... ya seem to have a propensity for making many silly statements. Educate yourself first, use some common sense, and then ya will see the light! lol

Anyhoo... let me educate ya a bit!

Here's the Telus Mobility coverage map for BC. You will notice that cell phone coverage exists along the rural highways that I have previously discussed.

http://www.telusmobility.com/bc/coverage/pcs_home.shtml

Some rural highways still remain unserviced including a section of Hwy 5 toward Jasper.

Now you may ask... Why does Alberta receive almost full coverage over its entire landscape (inclusing all rural roads... forget about highways)? 'Cause it's relatively flat with no interference from mountain ranges! ;)

Just because I don't have one of the things

Doesn't mean I haven't heard how spotty and unreliable they frequently are outside of the Fraser Valley and the Lower Mainland.

I have friends and relatives all over the province and many of them are not TELUS customers - God knows, I hope none of them are.

Therefore, you keep paying Darren Entwhistle to act like an idiot at your expense, not mine, for as long as you like - don't ask me to be a part of it.

As for your claim about Alberta, I know less about the cell coverage there. However, I do have many friends and relatives in Saskatchewan, including some who farm in locations as little as 7 miles apart - it may come as an enormous surprise to you that cell service between those two locations (due to geographic anomalies) is frequently unavailable.

Save your 'education' for someone who's a little more gullible my friend and next time you're travelling in the interior - keep an eagle eye on your little comfort pill - you'll find the signal is far from strong a lot of the time.

As for Telcos, Have you heard of Skype?

In the words of Bob Marley: "Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our mind."

farm in locations as little as 7 miles apart

GWest said, I do have many friends and relatives in Saskatchewan, including some who farm in locations as little as 7 miles apart - it may come as an enormous surprise to you that cell service between those two locations (due to geographic anomalies) is frequently unavailable.

Cell phones in Saskatchewan, you got to be kidding, they've just finialized introducing the two cans and string system there.

I thought that too woody

But actually, Sasktel is running a fully integrated service - including cable TV now - and their rates are, I'm told, very competitive.

I'll finish this for you.

I'll tell you why, because they don't.

Because they don't keep it. Like I said we only count casualties. Fixating, if you like, on what goes wrong.

If you haven't seen the data then it probably doesn't exist.

And if it did exist

And if it did exist, you'd have found it snert, right?

I suspect the cell phone promo people will start keeping data. Because they’re going to need it.

As the line of people who think we could very well do without more stupid cell phones for stupid people and the stupid towers sprout in neighborhoods where they're not 'wanted'; the reaction against the things will grow and spread.

Just as it has here in the comments at the Tyee – give everyone a buzzer to call 911 when they’re in dire straits if you like – anything more than that is going to be nothing but a nuisance.

I just wish the corporate kleptocrats (who wouldn't know real 'value' if it flipped up and hit them in the head) who are behind this abomination were required to get a community's approval in a referendum before more of the damn “services” were approved.

GWest , sending crossed signals

GWest, first you said, I do have many friends and relatives in Saskatchewan, including some who farm in locations as little as 7 miles apart

Then you said,
But actually, Sasktel is running a fully integrated service - including cable TV now - and their rates are, I'm told, very competitive.

I was going to ask you, how is it possible for a cable-telephone operation to be viable, when your customers live 7 miles apart. Then I figured it out, Sasktel must be utilizing the farmers fences and are running their signals through the fence wires, correct? Understandability that would make them most competitive, no poles or coaxial required, then how can they not be the most competitive, aren't they the only game in town, (province)?

you got it woody

Actually, funny thing about that - virtually all local Sasktel and Saskpower services in rural Saskatchewan are underground and have been that way for a couple decades....

The days of regular power outages and coal oil lamps have been over for a while.

Before the war, my aged relatives have told me, rural phones often were wired on the top strand of barbwire fences.

Pretty good GWest

Pretty good GWest, I left the door open just a crack, and you took advantage of it.