Crown Counsel 'Report'

Yes, allegations are only allegations.

But reports are reports.

So, was there an actual report, and was it amongst the defense disclosure documents?

One would assume this is a question that could be asked of the defense counsel.

After all, unlike some of the other principals, they seem to be available to answer questions.

.

Police and BC Liberals

Don't forget that a news crew just "happened" to be in the neighbourhood driving around when the police knocked on Glen Clark's door.

Remember when

And we were not treated to night after night after night of the clip of the RCMP taking boxes of files out of Gary Collins' office. Hmmmm.

Did you all see the Liberal apologist Keith Baldrey down play this development last night. He went out of his way to say over and over that they were just allegations something the BCTV news gang could not bring themselves to do do when it concerned a mere deck construction.

see the parasites cringe

The operative word is "alleged" !
just as we allegedly have a democracy here. yeah right!

What did Mr. Basi do? oh yes: media monitoring contracts! arranging to make everything look favourable for the government.
Wonder if he was on Canwest payroll as well? after all they are all one and the same bunch.

...

The problem w/this whole Vasi-Birk thing is there are no decks involved, or hunting knives... or NDP.

Individual versus the Team

The more this case veers away from charges about individual misconduct and towards general government policy, be it railway privatization or monitoring contracts, the more explosive it becomes.

And with all the troubles the RCMP is having, from pension deficiencies and resignations at the top, to the shooting cases in northern BC, the last thing they need is another investigator getting too close to Liberals.

Seriously

Considering all the things the Right-wing politicians of this province have been forgiven for in the past 50 years does anyone seriously think that even if the worst allegations are proved true that it will lead to Right-wingers voting NDP? Won't happen. No wonder Campbell says he's not worried. Even Wacky Bennett got re-elected when his minister went to jail in the 50's.

R C M P(lunderers)

Recent allegations about top RCMP officials skimming money from the RCMP pension fund,
and subsequent possible coverup, perjury and obstruction, suggests RCMP brass may be guilty of conduct as bad or worse than what Basi and Virk are accused of!

OFF TOPIC: Stephen Harper and his "Metrosexual" tendencies...I love this story!

OTTAWA (CP) - It turns out that taxpayers are picking up the tab for Prime Minister Stephen Harper's personal primper.

After two days of ducking media and opposition questions, the Conservatives finally revealed Wednesday that Michelle Muntean is on Harper's government staff. But the revelation raises two more big questions: How much is she being paid? And why is there no government record of her employment.

Harper has been travelling with his personal image adviser for major domestic and international events - most recently at ceremonies at Vimy Ridge in France last week. Muntean helps him perfect his look, including managing his wardrobe and general grooming.

News that Harper uses a style maven had the opposition both frothing and laughing.

"Does the prime minister have difficulty sleeping at night wondering whether he should wear the light blue socks or the dark blue ones?" New Democrat MP Judy Wasylycia-Leis asked in the House of Commons, to loud hoots and claps.

"Can the prime minister tell us who pays for his fashion adviser, and how much that costs?"

Liberal MP Garth Turner also took a shot at his former boss: "It's a legitimate question. I think it's an embarrassing one to him because he likes the cowboy image and not all cowboys wear powder."

Government House Leader Peter Van Loan wouldn't say who pays for Muntean's services.

"Mr. Speaker, the prime minister maintains a tour staff, as do all prime ministers," Van Loan told the Commons.

But a government source later confirmed that taxpayers are on the hook for Muntean's services - although the Conservative party pays her expenses.

However, there is no record of Muntean as an employee of the Prime Minister's Office, according to an official at the Privy Council Office. And an Access to Information request turned up no record of contracts paid out to Muntean.

Harper, meanwhile, has demanded accountability on such matters in the past.

As an MP, Harper went after Reform Leader Preston Manning publicly for not detailing his party-paid clothing allowance. Under pressure, Manning eventually did provide an accounting of the $31,000 perk, but tensions between the two men had begun in earnest.

In a bit of synchronicity, Harper was to attend a Manning event Wednesday night....
http://www.recorder.ca/cp/National/070418/n0418234A.html

head rot

Your are so right, Working Memory.

BC has a history of making grim leadership choices. Why is that?

I see in the BC electorate an endearing quality of youthful innocence - dubious judge of character, easily suckered by spin, unable to gain political wisdom by watching the rest of Canada because it can only look west. It's like watching a teenager make all the same mistakes that Dad did.

Gordon Campbell is unworthy of our trust, yet he has it. The drunk driving thing was not huge, but it was a golden opportunity to dump the bum before he did his damage. Instead, we forgave him as if he had simply barfed on the floor at our party.

Now he is selling off our resources, licensing BC rivers in perpetuity to private interests that will gouge us for overpriced power for the rest of our days, all the while milking us to pay for his mega-projects and defiling our political process with his back-room dealings. These are shocking betrayals, yet he is a shoo-in at the next election.

I sometimes talk gentle politics with my neighbours here in rural Fraser Valley. Most of them are supporters of Harper and Campbell (as they were of Mulroney and Vanderzalm in the past), though not for any good reason they can explain.

When I offer up some solid left-of-centre arguments, my neighbours seem ready to shift their loyalties. Clearly, politics is not a big part of their lives (nothing wrong with that), but it sometimes seems like they have never before heard criticisms of conservative politicians.

Love you, BC. Just wishing you could find your inner political animal. Eyes open and claws sharp!

How amusing

it is that the most some of the posters are capable of coming up with on this story, is a snivelling revisit of all the sins of the NDP and an old drunk-driving conviction.

It is small wonder the NDP remains in the political hinterlands with a totally ineffective and disrespected "leader", when one reads the words of the party's typical supporters, as represented by many of the comments here.

The telling aspect of this trial will not be the trial or it's outcome, but the gloating and mutual back-rubbing the left will indulge in, feeling at last they are getting some revenge.

Meanwhile, the rest of us, with some ideologically challenged liberals being the exception, will be sagely nodding our heads while not resorting to the sort of denial and knee-jerk defence with which the left is so closely associated.

Something is clearly amiss here. Like the Vanderzalm and Clark affairs, there is every reason to fear those responsible will not be properly brought to account.

Who exactly did you have in mind?

"....there is every reason to fear those responsible will not be properly brought to account."

Yep, and that's all the 'left's' fault too I guess.
Since 1900, a span now of 107 years, the
'left' has been in power for 13.

What BC is, is not in any sense a consequence of what the left has done or failed to do.

Dump that garbage at another doorway.

Well

G West, if you want to lay that at the feet of the left with it's other multitudinous sins, fine with me.

Personally, I think it is the system of entitlement which politicians have engendered and the bureaucrats have perpetuated over the decades. Combine that with an ingrained reluctance on behalf of the courts to indict, let alone convict, politicians or their minions and the problem is exposed, if not explained.

I am grateful for your information on the mercifully short socialist regimes we have had to endure, especially in view of the devastation they managed to wreak, even in those brief assaults on the public coffers.

Funny Accounting

That's the new math at work eh!? The NDP balanced budget must be made to look like the Liberals did it. Same people who spin numbers for Nortel and Enron...

There you go again

I mean "the Left" by 'you'.

The budget wrasselin' the ndp have done has been exposed for the lies it was years ago, yet, you folks still live in denial.

A balanced budget is a political fiction at best. What counts, is what is actually coming into and going out of the coffers. Under NDP regimes, there was always more going out, than coming in and the outgoing was more frequently to fruitless-though politically satisfying-efforts than not.

And don't talk to me about surplusses. So long as there is a deficit, there cannot be a surplus no matter which political stripe is making the claim.

The RealRealitycheck

Obviously, or at least I thought it was obvious, my remark was satirical.

A few more socialist regimes, such as the ones that have been in power in Scandinavia for donkey's years for example, and this province would not be in the mess it is today.

The point is, none of this stuff can be laid at the feet of the left in British Columbia. The current disconnect of the Victoria Opposition to the contrary of course - that's entirely their own fault.

That's reality - not some imagined list of leftish sins of omission or commission.

Sorry....

Your right of course. What I meant to say is the funny accounting hasn't been tallied yet. What we owe for inflating those numbers by selling the future away will come due and idiot capitalists will be standing there with this really stupid look on their faces. Huh? Without ecology there is no economy? What's that mean?

Of course,

one of the most amusing ways to respond to satire, is to appear to take it seriously.

You might want to take a closer look at your socialst dream countries, sans the rose-coloured glasses, all is not quite bagels and lox.

If this province is in a mess today, one wonders how you would have defined it during the Reign Of Error?

More union people are working today than then, more people are working now than then, the minimum wage is de-facto in excess of $10/hour-which merely shows how out of touch Carol James is-KFC for instance has starting wages of $10.73/hr with benefits and have a look at what Tim Horten's is offering.

Our provincial credit rating is back to the highest possible level, after having been degraded three times during the ROE.

Now, I can see you rummaging through the dust-bunnies under your bed for the old yarn about the economy being better now than under the NDP. Well it is, because the NDP are not in power. The rest of Canada during the ROE was doing quite nicely, we weren't.

The only claim the Libs can make for this improvement is; they are business friendly and attract, rather than chase out, businesses, jobs, workers.

You are not happy with the health system. I can see you scrabbeling about for the tried-or trite-phrases expressing socialist indignation. Recall if you will, things were no better and arguably, worse during the ROE. The NDP had ample opportunity to correct all that is wrong with the system and failed to. I suspect this has more to do with the juggernaut the problem is than asnything else. Also, it would help if both political parties agreed to work on improving the system, instead of making the other side look bad as possible in regards to the problem.

Private clinics, the bane of the health system? They more than doubled under the NDP.

Sorry G West, the right has no bragging rights overall, but they are closer to having some than the left can claim.

Reality Check

Don't interrupt TheRealRealityCheck while he's nodding sagely G.

He gives his Liberal buddies a pass on corruption, what more is there to say?

Piss and Vinegar

Yeehaw! We got a live one here, sounds like he's fresh out of university economics too! Who wants to break him? Ed?

Quote:The rest of Canada

And obviously he has no relationship with StatsCan numbers that show BC outperforming most of the ROC most of the time in the 90's.

Also, he ignores all those federal dollars that have been dumped on the BC libs while when the NDP were in power we had to endure federal cutbacks.

Its called selective memory syndrome.

taxcutter99

Looks like taxcutter99 has a spanking new handle.

Penalty Leader!

Great check Frank! Looks like he's winded for sure...

The RealRealitycheck

In 13 years out of 107 - at least five of which were during a period of severly depressed commodity prices, and international recession centered on the Orient and the most severe federal cutbacks to shared cost programs in modern history - there are plenty of valid criticisms to be made of the three mildly socialist governments this province has had. SO far you haven't come up with anything except a profound illustration of your own ignorance.

Come back when you have at least one fact straight - and when you actually know something about Scandinavia.

You're a complete waste of time.

Quote:Mulroney was a major

You gotta wonder about this crap; and wonder what other Tories are thinking when they hear that! Making political donations while receiving politically-derived contracts is.......well, we all know what it is. But it's the way "business is done" in our so-called parliamentary democracy, which elects us bagmen who serve as middlemen in the whole noxious climate of pork barrel and patronage.

Then there's Collins, still denying he was under investigation even though we know he was under surveillance (of all kinds). Any respectable minister under the British parliamentary system would have resigned by now (as would have Campbell, in fact, for this alone if not for being a stupid drunk while on vacation).

why the national media are looking the other way

It's pretty simple - the Basi-Virk case puts a spotlight on all the shortcomings of the constitutional system/"nation" that they're always so hot on telling us how great it is, and why we need to keep it. Yeah, uh-huh, sure.

In recent months I've begun calling this scandal "Ledgegate", not meaning to invoke the -gate tag tritely but because it has echoes of Watergate proper, with the cover-up efforts, the suspect involvement/methods of the investigating authorities, and so on. The bigger scandal here is not what Basi and Virk did, or even what Collins and Campbell "may have done", but the cover-up itself. THAT needs its own investigation....

Gordo and his friends,

Gordo and his friends, busily giving BC away. Lying about everything. My thoughts...If a politician like gordo is dirty, do as you would to a baby's diaper, change it!

politics as usual...in B.C

corruption perpetrated by morons runs amok in this province and country.

drunken politicians are de riguer ,find me a sober one...and i mean drunk with grape or with power...they are all the same a$$holes from the top to the bottom and every party has their share of DOLTS.

unfortunately...there are to many out here that think the SYSTEM is just fine thank you.

SO LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND ASK YOURSELF...WOULD I MAKE A GOOD POLITICIAN

I KNOW I WOULDN'T....CAUSE I LIKE TELLING AND HEARING ...THE TRUTH .

and we all know,the truth always gets in the way .......................

Geez,

You guys are so predictable.

What, do you have a general e-mail which goes out to the rest of the rat-pack when someone has the temerity to point at the naked emperor?

As usual, since I am not a knee-jerk supporter of the waning socialist theology, I am assumed to be a Liberal.

It is just this pack mentality which, thankfully, will keep the ndp in it's well-deserved limbo.

Now, Thielman is the sorta socialist you oughta emulate, not Glen Clark, the regrettable Jinny Sims or the laughable Jack Lenin.

Thielman actually listens, admits facts and faults and argues in a rational manner. In fact, at least publicly, he comes across so rational, I am surprised he hasn't been drummed out of the party.

As for ROE, here are some NDP documents from the time, which you may find entertaining to deny;

http://www.fin.gov.bc.ca/archive/budget97/bg97th07.htm

And you may want to have a little fudge with this one;

http://www.leg.bc.ca/1994/budget/budget.pdf

Just one of several such budgets.

If the province was doing so well, how is it that the credit rating was dragged down to the lowest point in history while other provinces didn't suffer such ignominy?

I have to agree, there should be an investigation into the apparent cover-up of the political aspects of Basi-Virk. But like the Vanderzalm and Clark issues, which cried out for similiar investigations, there won't be for reasons discussed earlier. As well, the federal government of the day is also implicated and we know how hard it is to nail those buggers.

Predictable

The only thing predictable is how you draw parallels between Clark's deck and the Basi-Virk montrosity.

Better upgrade those rose-coloured glasses.

Since those are the only two parties with seats and you don't appear to be an NDPer I'll let you figure it out which one I htink you are.

Why is the extra "real" needed

Whoa re you trying to convince that yours is the real real reality check. It almost sounds like you don't believe it yourself. First who is it that determines credit ratings. And you don't think the financial institutions favour the right-wing governments or consider the world commodity price issues? What about the auditor General's reports and the Liberal appointed board who did not exactly support the liberal claims about how bad the finances were. In fact they said quite the opposite. Then consider that throughout most of the NDP's tenure they dealt with a massive amount of operating deficit left over form the Socred/Liberals in 1991. Oh yeah you would have been happy if they had simply cut spending in the province by 2.5 billion and then driven the province into a recession.

I think you need another real real real reality check. You engage in a distorted view that Bill Tielman wouldn't because he may be critical from time to time but it is with the facts.

RealRealitycheck check this

RealRealitycheck check this out
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2005/04/20/CampbellMisledPublic/
Now check this Can'tWest and glowbull TV BS
http://thetyee.ca/Mediacheck/2005/02/21/BudgetCoverageOutofBalance
http://www.bcliberals.com/EN/464/4492?PHPSESSID=80563ec1c914660df96284587fdca5fe
What a Fr--king hypocrite gordo and his Cowardly bunch of MLAs no guts. The only one I had/have respect for quit in disgust was with the Minestry of Health Penny Bellem, I think that's how it's spelled.
My God $31,000 clothing allowance that's over 3 times what I get to exist on for a year on my disability check, something smells real bad here!
Where are the two Super profligately decorated ($50,000,000 dollars apiece) Challenger Jets that J Creatchion purchased with hard earned taxpayer dollars?
http://willcocks.blogspot.com/2003_09_28_archive.html

A ripple versus a tsunami of corruption

Let's put this on a balance scale....there was the much ado about nothing mini- deck of Glen Clark's versus this:

"Hon. K. Falcon: We'll provide a breakdown for the member. The financial adviser, $6 million. The shipper consultants, $250,000. Communications, $40,000. Legal counsel, $5.01 million. Accounting and auditing, $250,000. Actuarial work, $50,000. Captive insurance looks like $25,000. Real estate adviser, $600,000. Fairness opinion, $300,000. Internal expenses — this has to do with staff, travel, etc. — $300,000. Evaluation committee support costs, $15,000. Internal communications, $6,000. And a contingency of $5,000 — for a total of $14 million.

J. MacPhail: This is the first time I've heard of those costs. Maybe the minister has told other people about this. It costs 14 million bucks to sell B.C. Rail? If you add that to the $900,000 that the minister blew on the failed sale of the spur line to Roberts Bank, we have almost $15 million that it cost the taxpayer to sell B.C. Rail. This sale cost $15 million that British Columbians get zero benefit out of — zero. Fifteen million bucks. I'm not sure anybody knew that's how much it cost to sell B.C. Rail. What does a real estate adviser get for $600,000?"

And that's just "the selling" costs of BC Rail...and it in no way reflects the immense loss incurred by the sale of a valuable public resource.... nor the real price of deception and the accompanying loss of public trust. It only reveals the tip of a very ominous iceberg.

ummhh

I'm confused here, but it sounds from that last post that it would have been cheaper to give the railway away. So how much did we get for it? and what account did it go into?

Why do WE sit here and let

Why do WE sit here and let these Federal and Provincial Traitors and thugs steal OUR Freedoms and Democratic Rights away do they think WE are all sleeping, ARE WE?
It's time to bring all these traitors up on Crimes Against "US" The Real Canadians!
Are their any great attorneys left out there with the fortatude to bring about a class action suite by all Canadians 32,000,000 of US and only a couple of hundred+ of the greedy dolts?
Just look at America's so called leader maybe grade 3?
http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2007/03/26/01439.html
It's spring time, time to march for http://thetyee.ca/Views/2007/03/05/Eagleridge/ RIP she dyed for OUR FUTURE!
and Betty Krawczyk 10 months in jail standing up for the right to protest against Tyranny

We know that the

We know that the Corporations have a few of OUR Justices System on board, all WE have to do is look at how easy TILMA was passed through the Legislature!
I've always thought that the SUPREAM COURTS of BC and Canada had the power to take out RENIGADE political parties?
Who can follow the money trail, as I wish I could?

Hey Reality check....

Let's see now, here we are trying to discuss the blatant corruption and abuse of process and abuse of police procedure that Ledgegate is increasingly about.....and you want to complain about the long-destroyed NDP regime as if it was relevant. Do you Liberals shills have any ability to talk about anything to do with what's going on NOW, without saying "well, the NDP did this....."

The rest of us find this ongoing "tactic" (dodge) by Liberal spewmeisters somewhere between boring and amusing........

If the NDP had only had the 1972-75 regime and nothing since, you'd still be wanting to talk about that regime rather than any of the rightist sideshows in the years since; and if the NDP never had had a government, or never existed, you'd invent them.

It's all really quite tiresome and we're tired of being told to talk about Glen Clark instead of Gary Collins. What is it here anyway - this forum is about Liberal malfeasance, not NDP. Give it up.

Hear, Hear Skookum The only

Hear, Hear Skookum
The only answer to organized money is organized people.
www.radicalpress.com/?p=445
Wake up all the "Real Canadian people for real change"!
I went down to the Supreme Court of BC at 10am 18th of April 2007 and the Security Guard said that it was already over, huh? OUR Justice system "For the People By the People"

WHERE HAS OUR DEMOCRACY AND

WHERE HAS OUR DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM OF SPEECH GONE? RIP Harriett Nahanee, Betty Krawczyk, 10 months in jail?
in to-night snews "They just releasted from jail a guy who kidnapped two little girls and sexually molested them, he got 41/2 years so 1/3 of that sentence = 1year and 5 months for a crime that should be life???
Those 2 real ppeople one dead and one serving 10 long months???

WHY ARE OUR PEOPLE FIGHTING

WHY ARE OUR PEOPLE FIGHTING AND DYING OVER IN AFGHANISTAN?
FOR THEIR DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM OF SPEECH, WHILE WE ARE LOSING THOSE SAME BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS HERE?
I served 3yrs in the Canadian Military for three years overseas in the European Theater
to let these vermin take over OUR CANADA not likely! If WE must WE will fight because WE ARE REAL CANADIANS not cowards like gordo and his band of mercenaries of big greedy corporations.
OV We got zapped $15,000,000

TILMA

BC Dude said, "all WE have to do is look at how easy TILMA was passed through the Legislature!"

TILMA was not debated in tne legislature. The BC Liberals refused to debate it.

North of Hope you're right

North of Hope you're right damn DICKTATORS.
I'd still like to know where our "For The People By The People" Justice is?
I'm watching Canucks hockey and at the beginning with the National Anthem "OH CANADA WE STAND ON GUARD FOR THEE" and you hear the fans sing it that's the real Canada!

Right on, BC Dude....Stand on Guard

And so it goes....(from hansard):

J. MacPhail: So it's not $532 million of debt this government is paying off. It isn't at all. Because they're selling B.C. Rail — a company that was managing its debt-servicing costs quite nicely and had a debt-to-equity ratio that was excellent across this country…. The shippers' rates paid fully for that debt servicing. The shippers' rates were completely competitive. The ideological sale of this government is costing $53 million of wasted money, because this government broke its promise and is now selling B.C. Rail and is having to pay those costs for breaking the promise — selling B.C. Rail, paying those defeasance costs.

It's just wasted money — absolutely wasted money. They're breaking their deal, and it's costing British Columbians $53 million to get out of their obligations that were working just fine from a commercial and competitive point of view — $53 million.

Let's tally up how much wasted money is on this so far. We've got $53 million wasted because they're having to pay that because the debt hasn't matured — a debt that was fully serviceable and competitively serviceable. They're paying $15 million to lawyers, accountants and real estate advisers to sell B.C. Rail. The only people getting rich on that are lawyers and real estate advisers. Let's see. So it's $53 million plus $15 million — $68 million so far of just wasted, non-productive spending to fulfil a sale that they said they were never going to do. Isn't that wonderful. Why does the minister say that they're getting rid of $532 million of debt?

Hon. K. Falcon: I guess this is where, again, we have a fundamental difference with that member and her party. We actually think there is a real value to the province being debt-free. We actually think there's a value to paying off your debt. This member may be unlike many folks, but there are a lot of folks out there who, if they have the opportunity to pay off their mortgage — even with some penalties — would do that if they were able to.

J. MacPhail: But they've got their house left. You sold the house. We've got nothing.

Joseph Goebbels would be proud

What I find most interesting, and what I didn't know about until now, is these "media monitoring contracts" the Liberals had with Basi. As per the article, these contracts were a "highly political effort to sway public opinion through the use of radio shows and other events".

Gee, "media monitoring" is a fancy term, ain't it? I wonder how much the Liberals paid some spinmeister to come up with that one? Where I come from , it's simply called propaganda. Independent of anything else that may come out of this trial, the Liberals obviously organized attempt to mislead the public is very interesting in and of itself. Not to mention scary. Very scary.

Sadly, it does not surprise me in the least as I have been seeing it go on since these clowns took power and the CanWest media is fully obliging and complicit. I just didn't know it had a name. Joseph Goebbels would be proud.

Cup Cakes Anyone?

Anybody remember the army of NDP 'Cup cakes'.

Now there was a spin master group of the left that tried and failed. Hundreds of media types selling the NDP script. Wasted millions too.

Cup Cakes forever.........

You can't expect much

You can't expect much from a socialist government.
That's what we have. The BC Liberal Party is a socialist party.
When this is finally exposed, we may get a truly western conservative/libertarian Canadian representative Party that will help us into a new world of politics. This current BC Govt. is a disaster.
It's an out of control mess that I am glad they are called Liberals.

Tsk

Frank, you prove my point. Apparently you are incapable of understanding that someone who disagrees with you is not necessarily in the other camp.

I'll not bother to respond to all the diatribes above regarding the liberals, much of which I agree with.

I merely enjoy pointing out to you idealogues, that your own idealistic and completely unrealistic party has plenty of poop on it's own floor. This is something you are gleefully willing step over, while holding your collective noses.

BC Dude, the excesses of pols and the waste they commit with our money is unconscionable and I feel people on disability should get much more...a better use of my tax dollars so be sure than some pols clothing allowance or gas card. But let me ask you, how much more did you get under the NDP? Why didn't they, the "people's party", increase your monthly stipend to the point where you can live more comfortably?

The simple fact is, regardless of the party or it's promises, once they are in power they do whatever they damn well want.

Instead of ideological railing against the liberals, work towards a change which will make the process of electing a government which is actually answerable to the electorate. STV is not perfect, but is it a far better approach than first-past-the-post. In fact, it is likely the only chance the NDP will ever again have at forming a government.

Despite that depressing thought, at least regional interests might be more fairly represented.

By focusing on ideology, you play into the hands of the pols from both parties. You divert yourselves so much from the real issues, they pretty much get a free ride.

Idealogues and zealots, are virtually indistinguishable. One cannot reason with either.

Media monitoring?

DJT, the practice is well established and used by both parties. Even, perhaps especially, in opposition the NDP had rooms full of people at the legislature and elsewhere, who's sole responsibility-at taxpayer's expense-was to follow the media and jam talk-show lines with supportive calls. In fact, I believe the tactic was first implemented by the NDP, but the Socreds and liberals were not slow to emulate them.

Speaking of ideologues...

"Instead of ideological railing against the liberals, work towards a change which will make the process of electing a government which is actually answerable to the electorate. STV is not perfect, but is it a far better approach than first-past-the-post. In fact, it is likely the only chance the NDP will ever again have at forming a government."

I think the above is just so terribly, terribly naive. To think that STV is going to change anything with the current mainstream media manipulating public opinion. The current problem and the reason for this sites existence and popularity is the continued bias in the media. Any electoral system including STV requires an informed electorate. Without that, all systems have serious flaws. So it seems that the easiest method to make sure that we get governments who represent the people for the people is to clean up the current farce that passes off as the fourth estate. This simple insistence on STV is ideological.

Oh I know there will be all kinds of shouts about the freedom of the press. Well the press has not been free for a long time and ever since the likes of Ma Murray we have not seen newspapers that were independent. There is far too much corporate control.

We have public boards who control professional bodies and ensure that public interests are respected surely we can find an impartial group which would hear complaints about unfair news coverage and be empowered to force the media to take corrective actions. The present editorial council is a complete and utter waste of time.

RealRealityCheck

I think you should go back and read your initial post and then look in the mirror. Your first post talks down to people like they're scum and you act like you're some high and mighty being that's above earthly concerns so don't act so offended you got your ass handed to you.

If you want to engage in a civil conversation your first post is not the way to do it. Might I recommend Dale Carnegie's books for learning how to get along with people when you eventually reach your 20's.

Yah

Much truth in what you say Skywalker.

Perhaps you are a tad arrogant in supposing everyone but you is manipulated by the media?

Certainly, there are people who take what the media says or prints as being the unvarnished truth.

However, I suspect they are relatively few regardless of your convictions to the contrary I have a feeling most people know when they are being 'manipulated'.

Now, I was being a bit facetious about STV being the NDP's only hope of forming a government. They have no hope of ever doing so again, but, under STV they might elect a few more ineffectual members like Carol James.

Even your own party agrees the current system is unfair to the electorate and while STV may not cure all the ills, it might be worth a try. Certainly, things couldn't be worse.

For myself, I am not convinced of the wisdom of STV but at the moment, it is the only alternative currently even remotely viable.

One thing you might consider in regards to it, is the fact the liberals don't like it much.

The Re/re check

I think this is both false and disingenuous. After the 2001 election the NDP wasn't even afforded the nominal courtesy of being 'called' the official opposition - so small minded and mean spirited was the premier of the time. Against both the advice of many of his own party, the vast majority of the press and the public interest, Gordon Campbell began to show his true colours from the moment he became Premier. Although, truth to tell, this attitude was already on display when he was mayor of Vancouver and became even more apparent when he entered the legislature. You could ask Gordon Wilson about that.

The fact that supporters of any political party phone or write to media institutions on their own time is a straw man.

If you knew anything about the way this government works you'd be aware of the contents of Order in Council 656 (Sept 12 2006) which has since been amended and added to several times and which contains the names of very close to 200 'civil service' appointments whose full time and very well paid jobs are various media monitoring and influencing activities.

This is far in excess of anything ever done by either the Socreds or the NDP - and, if you'll take the time to do a little research you'd find that Seamas Gordon - the individual referenced in Bill Tieleman's piece above here as being in court on behalf of the AG is one of the names listed in OIC 656.

His appointment, although he works for Wally Oppal, is to provide "Applied Leadership" and he is appointed under and paid by the Ministry of Finance - like virtually every other person on that list.

Like everything else done by this government, all the power rests in the Finance Ministry and through that, in the Office of the Premier.

What's happening now is, believe me, a very different situation than what has gone on in previous administrations. You need to do a lot more research if you think you have any idea what’s happening in Victoria. This trial may well be the last chance the people of this province have to re-assert some control and influence over the wider concept of ‘public interest’ in British Columbia. Much more than two political operatives and one ‘bona-fide’ lobbyist are on trial in Madame Justice Elizabeth Bennett’s courtroom. If you really want to learn the whole of this story you couldn’t start at a better place than here: http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/

Virtually nothing that has come out in court to date was not already noted weeks ago on that blog. It'll take you some time, but it's well worth the effort.

Why thank you Frank

I appreciate your concern and comments. I read Carnegie before your parents were flirting with each other.

I am not at all concerned with getting along with people. I have opinions, as do you and I intend to express them in the frankest manner possible. I am not PC nor do I pussyfoot around issues.

Maybe you can live with it, but I don't care whether you can or not.

You might be suffering from some sort of self-worth issues if you conclude anything posted by anyone on an anonymous forum "talks down to people like they're scum and you act like you're some high and mighty being that's above earthly concerns" is true.

I never take anything personal on forums, but am always amused by those who do and am never offended.

I mean, what collosal arrogance to assume your opinion of me, whom you have never met, could affect me in the least!

Right back at ya

Same to you

Well just Listened to a few

Well just Listened to a few minutes of Bill Borings show and Vaughn, Les and Bill say the Raids on the ledge are a passing scandal as all involved are out of Government.

Raids

Yah, I heard that too Bill Bland has always been a political apologist. But he is fair about it, he'll kiss a political ass no matter what stripe is bears.

He once asked a pol a hard question. He was in such shock I heard he had to go home and lie down.

Arrogant?

the real reality ego check. What an arrogant prick you are. I'm sure that's the impression you are trying to make. Good work!

try www.Cap.ca They gave BC

try www.Cap.ca
They gave BC Rail away and WE paid/lost $15 million just to give it to these dispicable Cream dela cream, screw the spelling. These vermin BC Fiberals are the ones who are involved with bringing in migrant workers at $4. an hour and charging taxpayers $19+. bucks an hr
They and their lowlly ilck, shareholders are a scourge to the world along with the Corporations and who allowed corporations to become "persons"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_personhood
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation

Try www.killercoke.com

mcdull

Funny, that didn't stop the media-fest when it was Bingo-gate.

Here we go again. The story

Here we go again. The story started about a court case then started to go sideways and is now a slanging match about who has the biggest ego. A great way to remove discussion to a place where most folks simply tune out. But not before we once more hear about the fast ferries or a party that couldn't balance a budget, even though the previous governemtn had done so, on a number of them in a row.
Back to the case folks

Excellent comment....it bears repeating

G West wrote:

Ignoring Basi-Virk

On the basis of mcdulls post I downloaded and listened to the few minutes CKNW gave to the Leg issue with Baldrey and Palmer.

Well, if that's how CKNW, the Vancouver Sun and Global see the issue, that its nothing and all in the past, then its clear they don't see this as being as important as building a deck and the government is in no danger.

After all, according to Baldrey, Collins is no longer the Finance Minister so what's the big deal?

They couldn't dismiss it fast enough and assure their loyal audience that this trial was nothing to worry about. No wonder people increasingly ignore the main-stream media.

I hope that the BC Supream

I hope that the BC Supream Court are going to find the real criminals in this whole sordid scandal BC Rail, BC Liberal, CanWest Globull media with conspearacy aiding and abetting against the BRITISH COLUMBIAN TAXPAYER US THE PEOPLE!
I'm not a preacher but I believe in My God not riches, not big everything, but helping and trying to love my fellow man!
A little excerpt from this ungodly site, is it any wonder that WE are in a battle for OUR Future.

www.bilderberg.org/ www.bilde

http://www.bilderberg.org/
http://www.bilderberg.org/2006.htm#VIP
http://www.bilderberg.org/land/diggers.htm
An excerpt:
For Covetousness is thy God, Pride, and an Envious murdering Humor (to kill one by Prison or Gallows, that crosses thee, though their cause be pure, sound, and good reason) is thy God, Self-love, and slavish Fear (lest others serve thee as thou hast served them) is thy god, Hypocrisie, Fleshly Imagination, that keeps no Promise, Covenant, nor Protestation, is thy God: love of Money, Honor, and Ease, is thy God: And all these, and the like Ruling Powers, makes thee Blind, and hard-hearted, that thou does not, nor cannot lay to heart the affliction of others, though they die for want of bread, in that rich City, undone under your eyes.

It was an expensive deck

If I had the money, at commercial advertising rates, for all of the media time that was devoted to that deck, I would have been able to buy a convention center to go along with it.

quote:

If you knew anything about the way this government works you'd be aware of the contents of Order in Council 656 (Sept 12 2006) which has since been amended and added to several times and which contains the names of very close to 200 'civil service' appointments whose full time and very well paid jobs are various media monitoring and influencing activities.

I wonder how much right wing trolls get to shut down discussions on left wing media forums.

The tangled web of deception

Democracy in this province and the public's right-to-know have been decimated by a process of carefully "plotted" and "manipulated" subterfuge that has become so commonplace that it appears to be acceptable....which is the real danger and treachery of it all. It now defines the meaning of "mainstream":

As DJT wrote:

As Frank wrote:

After all, according to Baldrey, Collins is no longer the Finance Minister so what's the big deal?

They couldn't dismiss it fast enough and assure their loyal audience that this trial was nothing to worry about."

As Our BC liberals are under

As Our BC liberals are under investigation then WE should demand Campbell step down as dictator of BC until the end of this travesty, and an independent investigation made up of the general public into all the criminal activity including the RCMP and who is behind CanWests involvment of a dumned down media!

http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070420.BCBASI20/TPStory/TPNational/BritishColumbia

The Canadian Constitution

The Canadian Constitution Enshrines the Candadian Rights and Freedoms!
Today is the 25th anniversery of this great Charter!
Harper wouldn't celebrate this great occasion, WHY?
Channel 105 shaw

oh puh-LEEZE

Check your paranoia at the door; "media monitoring" is a well-established term from outside British Columbia and is a big business; I worked for Komac Media back in the late '80s, who had a string of contracts and a room full of VCRs and tuners/recorders, and spent my hours transcribing/dictatyping items which related to various clients; some charities, some government, some private companies. It's not invented by "Liberal spinmeisters".

Straight out of the pages Orwell's 1984....

And as ov aptly quoted:

.

Now I think that could be considered a "Ministry" all of its own...specifically created to fool the public...and to divert, distract, and subvert the truth...not to mention the audacity of funding it out of the public purse.

So sad that so much of the mainstream media and civil servants are now making their living out of undermining democracy in this province....selling out not only the assets and resources of this province but the people of this province as well.

What a legacy to have to live with...and what a legacy to leave to their children and grandchildren.

May history record it so.

Not Just BC.....

Yeah, and not just in BC. This manipulation of process and misrepresentation of what's morally acceptable in real democratic politics is a hallmark of Canadian media coverage/politics. What else is a group of talking heads talking about how the government can manipulate public opinion in order to get its way on politics and/or re-elected? Yet our pundits blithely go along with the game, and they all know full well that the purpose is to "guide" and "inform" the public.......what a bunch of cretins.

The free press is only free if its reporters have the courage to speak the truth, instead of help manage the carefully-cultivated lies that shore up our completely inadequate political system, the so-called "parliamentary democracy" and its principle of "responsible government" (which technically means the Crown does what the Premier tells it to...not that the government is "responsible"...)

Say what RealRealityCheck?

"Even your own party..." and since I am not affiliated with any party is that a shot that I can't be objective. Just because I think Campbell is a slick scam artist and his minions are untrustworthy, does that automatically mean I must belong to one of the other? Time for a reality check friend>

media monitoring !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HEY!!! Ya think some of those highly skilled SPINMEISTERS are on this page spouting their absolute SH!TE ???

JUST CHECK OUT SOME OF THOSE phony names !

AND THE WRITTING STYLES,WORD USAGE AND ATTITUDE!!!

yes we got HERR KAMPBELLS buttlikkers right here dudes and dudettes ...all the time,doing full time duty,trying to make those KREEPS look good to some one...ANY ONE...

HELLO...HELLO...IS ANYBODY IN THERE ???

Basi

I think Baldrey is dreaming if he thinks this yarn doesn't have legs. It would be interesting to know of the Liberal Party is picking up all or part of the legal tab for these buns.

This story has, as the expression goes, "legs".

The involvement of two levels of government. Christy Clark's sudden resignation and her husband's possible involvement are merely some of the many questions yet to be answered.

This is, without question, Campbell's "fast ferry fiasco".

Thomas 49, I am indebted to you for once again demonstrating the inherant paranoia of the left.

There aren't any People's

There aren't any People's party anymore, sad for Democracy. I thought I was NDP but alas Carol James has also sold us out. shame
As they have and are doing in South America the people are out in full force marching together to get rid of the yankee dictators.
All you have to do is look at Vancouver after a Hockey game the boys (Sam's personal bullies) in blue are out giving $75 tickets for celebrating the Vancouver Canucks win, and that's just the start.
A couple months ago the military had a Sunday daylight exercise at the Main St skytrain station with full battle gear.
What ever happened to the many public inquiries, some scary shite?

FUNNYPHONY NAMES...REALCHEK...

tOO BAD I IZ A centrist,boneheadchek...

you should really chek yer facts when ya opens yer mouth...cause reading yer offerings...is like reading that guy that was on here last week...with a different name...same ATTITUDE...same DRIVEL...

realchek my a$$...sound like DOGSCHILD TO ME...

Pandemic

Much agree, Skookum 1, definitely not just in BC...the word "rampant" comes to mind.

Well

the left does not have the monopoly on paranoia...or ignorance.

What the hell is

What the hell is "parliamentary privilege"?
Is that the same as a "Get out of jail free" card for the Hon Ministers?
Does that mean that all criminals have to be told that they are being invetigated or they go free, or are made a crown witness?
“Mr. Collins followed Mr. Basi’s instructions,” he said, when asked why Collins would meet with OmniTRAX officials after police intercepted a phone call in which Basi said he’d arrange the meeting.
Wait just a minute, who's the boss here?
The trial that wasn't "seemingly escaped almost all the circle of journalists present and working for the Gordon Campbell government. There may be a sicker set of journalists in Canada but if there is, it will be hard to find".

http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blo

http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/

Good link BC Dude

Thanks.

One can't help but comment that all this is merely the defense position and not yet proven. It will be interesting to hear how the prosecution views the same evidence and chain of events. Then to see how the judge views it at the end.

Williams approach is interesting. He, rightfully, lambastes the legislative press gallery for their reporting style and lack of coverage. Then goes of on a tirade as bad in it's partisanship, as he implies the Press gallery is guilty of.

Now, I can tell you, legislative press galleries across the country and most especially in Ottawa, are always pretty much in bed with the government of the day.

There is a reluctance to report too much negative about the government which is frequently wining and dining them at taxpayer's expense.

In the Mulroney error...uh, era Duffy, or The Puffster as Frank so aptly named him, actually stormed through the parliamentary press gallery threating dire consequences to anyone who reported on Mulroney's corruption.

I don't think he had to make the threat, as none of them would have anyway, but it is an indication of how bad things were that he would do so.

Problem is, these days there are few if any publications or broadcasters with the cojones to seriously take on government at whatever level.

RealRealitycheck

RealRealitycheck
http://vastleftwingconspiracy.net/

www.vivelecanada.ca/index.php

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/index.php?topic=robinscolumn

What a loss for British

What a loss for British Columbians and OUR health, shame, gordo and his cowardly rat-pack.
http://www.cbc.ca/bc/news/060623_ballem.html
Where is CanWest GloBull?

Puh-LEEZE, back atcha'

The way it was defined in the article, "propaganda" is precisely what someone reading it would think "media monitoring" was, particularly if they hadn't heard the term before,which I hadn't. Considering how it was defined and the nature of this government (unless one's head is in the sand or their bread is buttered by Liberal policy), one could not help but think "propaganda".

Methinks thou doth protest too much. Check that at the door, go back and read how it was defined, then relax. (puh-LEEZE).

Umm

DJT, if you read back in one of my previous posts, you will note that all governments, including the NDP, use this sort of "media monitoring", though they all have different names for it. Now, one wonders if you will display the same sort of high dudgeon in regards to the ndp's propaganda machine, which is still working BTW, just not very efficiently?

I note I made an error in my recent post about the Basi-Virk trial, referring to a "williams", when in fact I meant Mathews. Mea culpa.

RealRealityCheck

Perhaps you should check this story:
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=9a9e92ad-ed26-473b-bd60-9dc982d2610a&k=85709

And then cast your mind back to the actions of a certain Liberal member, Paul Reitsma, of Parksville Qualicum in the 90s.

This kind of dishonesty is a particularly 'Liberal' sort of pathology.

In my opinion, you can be sure that it was encouraged at the very highest level.

Manipulation by any other name.....

Don't be presumptuous, RealRealitycheck. The fact is, I have never voted NDP in my life and would not vote for them (or the Liberals) if you paid me money. Regardless of what party (or company or entity) uses "media monitoring" as defined in this article, it sounds like manipulation to me. That, per se, is what bothers me, not who utilizes it.

'K

I accept that DJT.

G West, what's your point?

The NDP have done the same sort of thing as have the Libs, the Greens and especially the Socreds in the bad old days.

It is SOP.

I happen to have known Reitsma and he was far more simple-minded than anything else.

Wasn't there an NDP aide who impersonated his master o a talk show a few years ago as well?

Point is, no one party has any moral or ethical high ground on any issue whatsoever.

It is wise, especially if one has an ideological belief, not to be criticising others for the same sins with which one's own side is heavily involved.

Truth is not far away it is

Truth is not far away
it is ever present.
It is not something to be attained since not one of your steps leads away from it.

G West, What page of Sun hardcopy?

I live out in the forsaken, hinterland and finding a hard copy of yesterday's Sun is difficult for me unless I pollute through burning some litres of fuel. Could/would you (or anyone else) tell us what page we could find the article (you linked to 12 hours ago) about Basi calling into the talk show? I ask because I believe it would have been front page news and it would have been on the TV and radio for days and had the NDP done this.

Just as all of you know and

Just as all of you know and feel there is some very bad things going on in
Canadian Polititics Federally and especially in BC.
I've joined the CAP party of "For The People By The People" which we need
very much, more than ever!
If you join it doesn't mean that you can't vote for your favorite party,
as they are all the same "useless" or corrupt just look at BC's Campbell
fiberals and criminals, BC Rail scandal, BC Hydro, BC Ferries, ALR being
given to Campbell's buddies!
The secrecy behind the 2010 Winter Olympics the private new WO
highway(robbery of OUR hard earned tax dollars)
I'm sure that WE don't want this TILMA= NWO for OUR kids and grandkids
Future, so if you and your friends and acquaintances.
"WE NEED TO GET OUT AND DEMAND A CHANGE", then think about joining CAP!
Take a look at how Campbell has been selling OUR and OUR kids Future away!
Why? Follow the Money$$$

http://canadianactionparty.ca

http://canadianactionparty.ca/leader_m.html
The real truth about OUR health care in Canada!
http://canadianactionparty.ca/cgi/page.cgi?zine=show&aid=343&_id=27
How WE Got Screwed On Terasen Deal!
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2005/08/15/TerasenDeal/
Traitors of US THE CANADIAN PEOPLE NAU
http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2007/03/26/01439.html
OUR http://www.cnw.ca/fr/releases/archive/April2007/03/c9633.html
OUR BC Ferries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BC_Ferries
Coming to Canada http://www.miningwatch.ca/
I could go on but that's a start, it's very sad OUR parents, grandparents
and Great Grandparents fought and some dyed for OUR Freedoms and OUR
Democracy!
Do you think this has merit to fight these Bush & Co's buddies?
Thank you and please read on for Connie's email.

Dear supporters and

Dear supporters and members:
CAP NEEDS YOUR OFFICIAL ELECTIONS CANADA DECLARATION NOW Form EC
20036-C
CAP and all other parties have to confirm at least 250 members with
Elections Canada by June 30 2007. We need many more valid
declarations to meet the requirement.
Members must sign a declaration in the prescribed form - Form EC
20036-C. To be valid the member's declaration must
* be legible
*include the name of the party at the top of the form
*include a complete address, with the postal code
*be signed and dated by the member in the current calendar year.
You have to be a member of the party which means you need to be sure
your membership is up to date. To do that , send in $10.00. (Or
preferably much more because we are dependent on your contributions
to survive since the government cheats us out of the $1.80 per vote
it gives to the big parties) Or join the party and fill in a
declaration to help us. We have no rule that forbids simultaneous
membership in another party unless you are in a decision-making
position.
This is serious business. If we do not get the declarations in on
time, we will be de-registered as a party which means we will cease to
exist.

CAP's operations are nicely stabilized now. It took a lot of hard
work to reorganize after the transition from Toronto to Vancouver for
head office.
Most importantly, there is no other party presenting the voice we
do. Who else do you hear calling for full examination of the
compelling evidence that the attack in New York, Sept 11, 2001 was
not caused as reported? What no one can deny is that that event was a
global trigger to justify an ugly aggressive reshaping of the world,
war, criminalization of dissent, revocation of civil liberty, the
loss of social justice, and the implementation of a North American
fortress.

-Anti-terrorism legislation that stripped us of civil liberties
were justified by that event.
-The wars against Afghanistan , Iraq and possibly now lran were
justified by that event .
- Canada's military/ financial participation, injury and death to
our soldiers in the middle east wars were justified by that event .
-The unification of North America is justified by that event.

Dave Basi lobbed softball question to Campbell on phone-in

Sharing Is Good: The news item you ask about can be found in my daily basket of news reports now collected from the big newsrooms on a daily basis ... a very new phenomenon, let me tell ya.

Go to my site at:

http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/

RealReality Check

I disagree.

The BC Liberals are not just more of the same. They are, and have been from the beginning, willing to use and abuse the system in ways that are different from anything ever done before in this province.

If you aren't aware of that, you haven't been awake for the last 20 years. Sorry. I've pointed out a few examples. There are thousands more. However, it's not my job to try and educate you about the obvious.

Sharing.

That's a good question - unfortunately I can't answer it because I don't subscribe to the Sun. I think that link displays the whole column.

Check Mary's Blog and don't forget to look at the comments - several are excellent and I think the whole of Sean Holman's piece from 24 HOURS is included as well. It gives more information about how the Liberals have misused the media to manipulate and massage the message and the electorate.

Revisionist history?

Sorry G West, but the libs are not doing anything new at all. Corruption on this scale has been rife in the province and country since before confederation.

Look at Wacky Bennet's regime. How do you think the Bennet family got so rich? How about Phil Gaglardi and the Sandman Inns? How do you think his family became so wealthy? I can assure you, it was not by dint of hard work.

Liberals: Social Credit by any other name...

Hello RealRealityCheck,
I must comment about your comment.

We must remember that the reason the Liberals grew from very small 3rd party status to official oppositon status was the self-destruction of the Socred Party through the horrendous scandal and corruption (some of which you mentioned). Since the Socreds could not be trusted, most of the (I would think) still untrustworthy Socreds simply joined the Liberal Party. However, call them what you will, a leopard does not change its spots, a rotten rose stinks no less, and corrupt and dirty politicians do not magically become clean and enlightened.

'struth

and to make matters worse, those "libs" which are not Socred re-treads are Harper Conservatives.

Now there is a scary mix.

media monitoring

All governments, most big companies and public organizations and more, use media monitoring firms to track all print and broadcast coverage of thesmselves i.e. in case there's a need for response (or perhaps retaliation or lawsuits....). The NDP used media monitoring firms - HAD TO - as also most Crown Corps (e.g. BC Ferries, or in '89 it was still a Crown Corp anyway).

Media monitoring is often part of p.r. firm contracts, or contracted out from them; and a lesser form of it goes on within advertising agencies, making sure ads are aired or printed where/when they're supposed to be.

I'm not sure but I think if you look up "media monitoring" in the Yellow Pages, it'll be there....

Socred corruption

Graft is endemic in Canadian society, and it's inbuilt into the political system; the Bennett hardware company - not in WAC's personal hands once was Premier but in his sons' - had reams of government supply contracts. During the Miniwac regime control of the family business was in Russell Bennett's hands (Bill's brother) and "business as usual" continued - in the lead-up to the securities investigation of Miniwac there was some focus on the cost overrun/graft on the Coquihalla Highway, and only one or two mentions of the REAL scandal associated with the Coquihalla and the Bennett family's use of political power to get rich - the Doman sell-off was nominal by comparison to the real estate returns earned by, apparently, Russell Bennett and/or proxies buying up all available land in the Nicola Country in advance of the announcement of the building of the Coquihalla.....nobody's ever worked out the dollar take no that because no reporter has investigated it, and the media didn't dig for it. The rationale being that it wsn't Miniwac that did it so it wasn't illegal.....but it sure as hell was immoral, and there's gonna be no paper trail or phone records to prove that Bill told Russell "you know, we're gonna build a new highway trhough Merritt" but in politics "optics is everything".

Unless it's Canada, in which case everything is somehow excusable on technicalities. Or thanks to the media looking the other way because they're paid to . The media depend on their big advertisers to stay in print....so guess who gets to call the shots on what can be covered, and how....

www.vivelecanada.ca/index.php

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/index.php?topic=robinscolumn
"Sergeant Debruyckere, “brother-in-law of then-Executive Director of the B.C. Liberal Party, Kelly Reichert…. [who was] on the Provincial Liberal Party Election Campaign Team with [Finance] minister [Gary] Collins and acted as the Campaign Director"
The Standing Committee on Public AccountsOn the RCMP's pension and insurance admin scandal.
shaw cable ch 104
Great to see the "Good Old Boys Club" get clubed!
Maybe now WE'LL have a National Police Force that's not above the law and WE can look up to them once again?
During the week channel 105 is BC Legislature sometimes? lol

thanks bc mary

Thaks BC Mary,
I was just wondering on what page the article landed in the hardcopy. Was it front page, or was it buried in the depths?

unreality_fantasy_bounced_checque

It's always nice to see one of the mentally challenged but arrogant in their ignorance appear or reappear under a new nom-de-plume. Otherwise us "lefties" would wear ourselves out slapping each other on the back. And really just playin' with ourselves in our perverted lefty fantasy universe is sort of like onanism.

I just showed up this afternoon, though I am a fan of Bill Tieleman, (note the spelling mr.genius), but unfortunately I have a life and a blog or two and a website and...............

Anyway in your attempt to truly take down Gavin and validate your presumptious or subsidized rants you outdo your self in the recent and brief post quoted below.

How do you think the Bennet family got so rich? How about Phil Gaglardi and the Sandman Inns? How do you think his family became so wealthy? I can assure you, it was not by dint of hard work.

I almost don't know where to begin pointing out the misconceptions and facetious statements in the two paragraphs above but I'll try.

Re: "Corruption on this scale has been rife in the province and country since before confederation.
Look at Wacky Bennet's regime."

Well they've been murdering people since Cain and Abel, should we just decide it's okay?

As to: "How do you think the Bennet family got so rich? How about Phil Gaglardi and the Sandman Inns?....etc."

Well in the post-war period (late forties, fifties and sixties), especially in the west, anybody not in a coma did well. But the Bennett almost eternal, at the time, regime didn't amass their personal fortunes by selling off the assets of the people of the province. Indeed they built up the equity that BC had in its own resources and infrastructure. It is that legacy of WAC that the Campbell Crime Family is giving away at fire sale prices for their own and their corporate accesories' benefit.

Perhaps you forget that WACKY and company created BC Hydro, BC Rail, BC Ferries not to mention a whole lot of roads and everything else to make the province self supporting and even rich. Of course Cecil and his brand of Socred realized that the wealth of the province was created in the heartland, in timber, minerals etc. and the people, not on pieces of paper on Howe Street.

democracy in BC and Canada

democracy in BC and Canada what a bunch of bull.
Real media headlines lost cat, dog attack on woman with big pic front page? If I glance at the province rag, it's while I'm having a coffee at a cafe, never buy one!
BC Rail scandal court report (province rag) back on page a16 little snippit.
So I've started my own boycott of all advertisers in all CanWest Globull media, I'm 1 and if more join soon it'll start to affect these moron coroporations Bottom line and shareholders start losing money and aren't happy!
Future Shop is one

PostScript

BTW reelreelunrealestatecheque

I meant to point out in the comment above that this particular thread is about the current legal happenings relating to the Legislature Raids. So if you are serious about wanting to engage in civil discourse, why not start by addressing the actual topic under discussion instead of regurgitating a bunch of anti-NDP rhetoric?

SIG

When I read you question about what page the above linked story was on I decided to find out for you. I took a short walk and got my hands on a hardcopy of fridays' Sun. Now the interesting thing is that I can't find this paticular piece. I found another piece by the same fellow (pgA3) but not the one I read on the supplied link. I'm not sure what to tell you but I can't find it....

If you read this web site

If you read this web site you'll see why Glen Clark was politicaly assinated
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20070316232256741#comments
You bunch of idiot neocons slicing G Clark, disgust me to no end!
"The Glen Clark case arose out of the politics of the time – Liberals under Gordon Campbell, in fact, fighting to break the hold of the NDP on B.C. (More of that to come.)
A totally non-political complaint receiving the same kind of insane treatment as mine involved an ordinary citizen in the Kelowna area who believed he had very important information about the (still unsolved) Mindy Tran murder case. The RCMPrefused to take his testimony, coerced him, and much more. The Commission for Public Complaints Against the RCMP took years to do nothing whatever about his case.

Find out about all that at ;

Find out about all that at ; or at ; "
This whole sherade of gordo's in bed with RCMP and his band of idiots is coming apart at the dirty seams! (Finally)

Find out about all that at ;

Find out about all that at ; or at ; "

www.transfixed.net www.mindyt

www.transfixed.net
www.mindytran.com

thanks Blonde Pb

Thanks for looking Blonde pitbull. There we have it: page 17 of the Province: and in the electronic addition, but not the print version of the Sun. Just to round out CanWest's stranglehold on BC news, did anyone see it in the Times Colonist?

How droll

So Kootcoot, where is your comment on the Basi-Virk issue?

I have posted several. The fun with the NDP is just an aside.

Notwithstanding your voluble defense of the Socreds, the simple fact is they were as corrupt as they come.

I refer you to Skookum 3's post for some details. What happened with the Coq, also happened with the Hope Princeton, only then it was Gagliardi's son's getting the tip off.

Sure, Wacky did all those swell things, but he made damn sure he lined his own pockets and those of his family, chums and colleagues with nice warm tax dollars while he was at it.

BC Dude. Glen Cluck was a bully in the very worst sense of the word. He was extremely abusive to he staff at the legislature, shouting and screaming at them like the petty little tyrant he was. An aquaintence, a lawyer, was on his staff and finally resigned in disgust at the things he saw going on, including the abuse related above. Clark did for the NDP what Vanderzalm did for the Socreds. At least we have that to be grateful to the two of them for.

The RealRealitycheck

First of all, you might want to refer back to what I said at the start of this.

Then look at what I've said since:

Robert Sommers went to jail, remember? Despite all the obfuscation efforts of the then Attorney General Robert Bonner.

In this case, the BC Rail trial, there appears to have been collusion between the investigators and highly placed members of the government to limit the investigation even as the RCMP mounted a surveillance operation to learn what Collins was discussing with two American railway executives.

This is, as I’ve pointed out several times, a very different situation. And, sadly, there is every prospect that the corruption is so deep and pervasive within this government that it will not be rooted out. Furthermore, while there may well be plenty of examples of graft and collusion in BC politics in other eras, the range of misfeasance and the cost to the interests and assets of the province as a “public” resource are far more pervasive in the current instance.

Anyone who maintains otherwise, in my view is naïve.

Furthermore, if you can't avoid the anecdotal childishness at the end of your post just above, I don't think you deserve a further response.

I tremble,

I quake, I fear losing sleep at the thought you may not grant me "...further response."

I spent a long time closely involved with politics in this country and this province and I do not see the liberals as any worse and certainly no better than any other government, regardless of political stripe.

If anything, the sole difference is the fact more gets out these days than did even 20 years ago.

However, I am prepared to agree to disagree with you on the degree of corruption the current government is practicing in relation to other governments.

It is bad enough corruption is not only present and pervasive but apparently pretty much accepted by the common voter.

My anecdotes are neither childish nor invented. I have more, a real dilly about Claude Richmond, but apparently, such things offend your gentle sensibilities.

Tough.

These BC liberals are the

These BC liberals are the most destructive political party by cozying up to big biz and with the blessing of our dirty rcmp
giving away OUR future.
When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, materialism, and militarism, are incapable of being conquered. A true revolution of values will soon cause us to question the fairness and justice of many of our past and present policies: - Martin Luther King, Jr -from "A Time to Break Silence", King's address given on this day, April 4th in 1967 at the Riverside Church in New York City.

Basi-Virk PRE-trial

Early on, when blogs were still discussing the case, puppyg said: "Love you, BC. Just wishing you could find your inner political animal. Eyes open and claws sharp!"

If s/he has read the subsequent blogs, the answer has become obvious. British Columbians would rather claw at one another than on the politicians who just sneer at voters and keep doing "whatever they want". I'm with kootcoot - let's get back on the track because what's left of our control of politicians and our democracy hangs on what festers at the heart of this case.

MoreUnrealityChequeIsn't in the Mail

It is so amusing to watch how you wingnuts never address the issue in the article attached to the thread or the actual statements of other commenters you seem to think you are countering.

My comment (and its PS) were directed mainly at your nonsense, but in spite of the fact that you couldn't apparently understand it, it did address the issue at hand which is the special and new level of corruption exhibited by the Soup Nazi and his Crackers. That IS the issue that should be front and center at the Basi-Virk trial. In my humble opinion the fact that it even is the Basi-Virk trial is evidence of the ongoing obstruction of justice and betrayal of public trust at the heart of the case or more accurately pretending to be the government of British Columbia instead of the largest and most successful organized criminal organization in BC, the BC Lieberal Government under capo and made man Gordon (the Soup Nazi) Campbell.

As to my voluble defense of the Socreds, I am far from a fan. However the Socreds of Wacky and the Socreds of MiniWac were two entirely different creatures. MiniWac and his Socreds Version 2.0 did take the maladministration of government towards the epic proportions we see today with the Soup guy, but even they were small time rank amateurs compared to the current crop of gangsters posing as politicians.

BTW, I really care about the quality of your sleep, or if you should lose some.....NOT.

As to:

Do you really feel that it is necessary or helpful to brag about your inability to even understand what you claim to be "closely involved with?" Maybe that's why you can spout on about Bill Tieleman like some kind of expert without ever noticing that there is no "H" in his last name. You strike me as one of the many who can "look" but can't see and even if they could see would not understand.

Anyone who thinks the Campbell Crime Family is just government as usual, no better no worse, probably also thinks that George Bush is a "Compassionate Conservative" who has brought accountability and fiscal responsibility to Washington DC and peace to the world.

The realrealitycheck

How many times I gotta tellya that the NDP inherited a mess and were on track to straighten it out? I guess as many times as you spew the unsubstantiated lie (see above quote) that the NDP caused the mess.

Typical shoot the messenger, and kiss the a$$ of the perpetrators.......

T.R.R.C.

Is this where someone stands up and says, "Well, perhaps you'd better go back and spend more time, until you get it right!"

Geez

Rick, is there any way to put you on ignore here too?

I get it fine Kootie, anyone who has the temerity to disagree with you is automatically...what were all those things you said? I have forgotten already.

Carry on lad.

Perhaps

You'd like to tell us what former Labour Minister Graham Bruce is up to these days
RealRealitycheck?

As bad as things may have been in the past, they don't hold a candle to what's going on now.

I guess you're also aware of what energy minister dickie neufeld is doing on his Texas road trips as well.

Spare me.

Well

"As bad as things may have been in the past, they don't hold a candle to what's going on now."

GW, just because you believe something is just and so, doesn't mean it is. Doesn't mean it isn't either, just means the jury is still out.

I have absolutely no interest in Graham Bruce. I assume whatever he is doing, he is screwing somebody out of something. He certainly never represented the interests of the people who elected him.

Neufeld is on Texas road trips? Whattya think? Is he laying groundwork on the inevitable opening of the oil fields off the coast here? Or perhaps just collecting his bribes?

RealityCheckless

Maybe you should talk to Beers, you might be able to get Glavin's column, being more of a clueless know it all and all than even Mr. Glavin. Just think, you could be on the front page, and from our point of view easier to ignore.

Your idea of the jury is out is a joke. By the way has the jury come back with a verdict on the Cain and Abel case yet, or should we just decriminalize murder? After all murders have been going on so long, they're just business as usual by now, just like the Campbell Crime Family and their machinations.

OH, come on....

Don't know whose that was; pulled out of a comment it was quoted in: What you're saying, without knowing it, is pure equivocation. Because they're all corrupt is not reason to excuse this bunch; and I'll submit that they're the most corrupt in a long while, although some 19th C. scandals were hard to beat though long forgotten now.

One that surprised me was the first survey ever done on burard Inlet, which was also enabled by the first Land Law on the Mainland Colony, in 1959 or '60. Colonel Moody of the Royal Engineers, plus Moberley and Buranby and others with military rank/position, surveyed out a series of military reserves (Pts Grey/Atkinson, Stanley Park, around Port Moody) but also staked out the whole of what is now Vancouver, Burnaby and western Cqouitlam/Port Moody for themselves....oh, plus Rear-Admiral Baynes of the RN, who couldn't make it to the picnic. There's a longer story to this about how word had reached New West thinking the survey party had been slaughtered by the Burrards (or Squamish, the account in Alan Morley's book isn't clear and my Skwxwu7mesh contact isn't sure), and indeed they'd protested the survey, until threatened with retaliation (and for good meaure, Moody freed all the chief's slaves).

There being neither an assembly nor any council on the Mainland other than one composed of the very men doing the survey - effectively the Cabinet - it took the Legislative Council/Assembly in the Colony of Vancouver Island to raise the howls against the "military clique who were appropriating lands for themselves", including all the highest-ranking officers no less, and all of them high-ranking government officials of one kind or another.

Their own alienations were abrogated (except for the military reserves which are familiar enough today) in the wake of the scandal; but there was no newspaper here yet, so nobody ever came up with a tag for the scandal; in Wiki I've been referring to it as the Military Lands Scandal but haven't yet written an article on it. The current plot-system for Vancouver/Burnaby as you see in the Vancouver: A Pictorial History (Peter MacDonald) is of a new survey that was done; the shape of the lots do not resemble those laid out by Moody and his cronies. This was the church-going, teetotal Colonel Moody......funny how moral righteousness and personal greed so often go hand-in-hand.

Then there was Mr. Hicks at Yale......but not a high-ranking official so not as priority a scandal; there were others but it's hard to beat this Ledgegate thing; but our times are more complex, as is our economy and govenrment and so also thte opportunity for greater and greater scandal. Especially in a system where the foxes have built the chickencoop.....

correction

Taht would be 1859 or '60 that is, of course. And Burrard Inlet also of course; by "also enabled" I mean this was the first survey done under that alienation; by doing it, as Morley points out, it validated/mandated the Lands Act or whatever the particular document was called; in other words, the foundations of Land Law in BC were built by scandal....and don't get me started on the Gold Commissioners and their sweeping powers (with no audits but their own).

what's most distressing overall....

Is, even if Ottawa did care what went on in BC, and wasn't run by a similarly corrupt system, there's no higher recoure to bring the politicians to hell when the violate British constitutionality - .e. resign if you're under suspicion, is what the convention is supposed to be - not convicted or charged, but even so much as suspected, but "in politics optics is everything" - but if the media is blind, and the public is glinded)).

Not that Westminster might intervene in suspect cases like this; but it's a pity perhaps that there isn't Imperial Law to fall back on to bring this guys down on a constitutional basis; a call from the Queen to Gordo telling him to resign for embarrassing his office (and her powers) wolud have gone a long way, but likewise a note from the Imperial Privy Council, if t here still was one....

And of course the public has no recourse under our system, unlike (badly used as it is) in the United States. We have neither an independent judiciary nor an independent legislature, and we have a yellow press. And as said, the foxes are in charge of designing the chickencoop, and most of the chickens don't really know either how to build proper chickenyards, or how to get other chickens to do it, for that matter.

My own view is that hte deepening global/local crisis that's so obvious in so many ways lately is what's going to force a change in the political system; too much information, too many people, and a global economic system that's even more a house of cards than its ecology....the political system is already in the process of imploding; appearances can be maintained only for so long; if this scandal gets buried the questions it raised aren't going to go away, same with Zaccardelli and Jamie Graham; the questions are just getting bigger, especiallyi given the obvious cover-up efforts, which are even more heinous than the miscreant behaviour of the police over the warrants; not that I dno't admire their zeal in getting them, but it's because they could have blown the whole schmeer by doing so.....

"Parliamentary privilege" may be all fine and dandy for immunity from slander and libel and so on, and dining in the Ledge cafeteria and a nice spot in the order of precedence when a royal or other VIP trots through town. But it shouldn't involve immunity from criminal investigation. And actually, IMO ministers should be under active investigation from the moment they take office. Don't know by who, but I think you see what I'm getting at. In politics, you are guilty until proven innocent; that's just the way it is. But if you're guilty and still in power under our system you can just "hold out" and hope for the wind to change, or find a way to change it (usually by spending money that's not yours).

OK, OK I'll start using "preview"

"That is" the paragraph should start; and that should have been "blinded" as the last word of course. (I wonder what glinded might mean, if it had to mean something?)

TRRC

And you have indeed proven that, time and again - what with your incessant and interminable fiction about how the NDP ruined the province.............

Hey Skook!

Perhaps a combination of gullible and blinded...........?

Thanks Skookum 1

Thanks for the history lesson. It's the same history as was in the texts years ago, only this time it leaves a much worst taste in my Euro-Canadian mouth. You are also a "well-read" one.

Though it seems to have lost its way many ties in the last while, I applaud the Tyee for publishing this information and providing this forum where we can get links to BC_Mary. Thankyou!

Now that we know that BC has been corrupt (time and again), we must continue the vigil and never let our tongues be silenced. I believe that when the people can get control of the legislature, we should make huge fines, prison time and loss of all rights to a pension. To all readers who want the transparent government that Campbell promised time and again 7 & 8 years ago, I am reminded of Margaret Atwood: "Nolite te bastardes carborundorum!" [Don't let the bastards grind you down!]

SIG

Seems to be a bit of an oxymoron:
people, control...........

bit of an oxymoron

LOL,

I was thinking the same thing, RickW, when I wrote it. However, I am afflicted with optimism... though the current tyrants have tested my spirit (for years on end).

I believe that we can do better, and it is up to us to get it done thusly.

correction

Should read: I believe that when the people can get control of the legislature, we should make huge fines, prison time and loss of all rights to a pension [mandatory for any legislator (or his or her minion) found guilty of corruption.]

Further: Those who can offer proof leading to the conviction of a corrupt legislator - should recieve rewards equal to what the public servant loses. Perhaps then, MLAs, and their DMs, ADMs, etc. will truly understand that they are elected to serve the public in their leadership roles; they are not leaders to be served by the public.

For the dolts (who believe

For the dolts (who believe in local the media) who still believe G Clark was bad for BC, WHY then did gordo and his fetishist corrupt RCMP and the Can'tWest cartel publicly and politically assassinate him?
Madam Justice Bennett
Remember, this is the judge who sat for 136 days on the Glen Clark trial, refusing to call it vexatious, failing to see what more and more British Columbians believe they see – that the whole set of public actions and media attacks against wholly innocent Glen Clark was a Right Wing coup d’etat to put in place the corrupt Gordon Campbell regime.
In this case, the dance of the dumb, the dangerous, the demented, and the deadly hides a reality that the court, the private corporate press, the cabinet, the RCMP, and powerful politicos seem determined to keep from view
ORGANISE AND March NOW for OUR FUTURE JUSTICE AND DEMOCRACY!
We have no other choice as OUR Justice system, RCMP and OUR politicians are all in bed with Big Biz $$$!
Follow the MONEY!

PROTECTION FOR WHISTLE

PROTECTION FOR WHISTLE BLOWERS, NOW!
Watch who makes the biggest and loudest noise and start with them!

www.vivelecanada.ca/article.p

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20070316232256741#comments

Channel 104 "Standing

Channel 104 "Standing Committee on Public
Accounts" RCMP being investigated for "pensions and insurance" scandal and much more.
Can anyone tell me with this inquiry into RCMP by SCOPA's will there be Real Justice?
If, in a case of an "Employee of the Crown" (Bureaucrat of any sort!) trying to withhold any information, try mentioning charge # 337 of the Criminal Code of Canada (CCC 337).
BC Liberal scandals
Gordon Campbell
RCMP
BC MLA's
CanWest Global Corp RE: CONSPEARACY to be an accomplice (partner in crime) with the parties in this scandal!

The infamous House of Cards

Ya know, BC Dude, I was just thinking the same thing...a crime family can't exist without its prerequisite accomplices....

....from the media that fails to report what should be reported, or distorts what it does report, or puts what should be a front page story in a wee small article on page 16....

...from the cabinet ministers that have unquestioningly done the bidding of orders from above....

... from the MLA's that were elected to represent the people's best interests and instead they have voted for and knowingly passed legislation that has not only sold our assets down the road but our human rights as well.

But like Skookum 1, I do believe in the house of cards theory - in all senses - personal, provincial, federal, and global....and that as Skookum 1 notes the "deepening global/local crisis that's so obvious in so many ways lately is what's going to force a change in the political system; too much information, too many people, and a global economic system that's even more a house of cards than its ecology....the political system is already in the process of imploding; appearances can be maintained only for so long"

...and I much agree especially when he states this:

"Parliamentary privilege" may be all fine and dandy for immunity from slander and libel and so on, and dining in the Ledge cafeteria and a nice spot in the order of precedence when a royal or other VIP trots through town. But it shouldn't involve immunity from criminal investigation. And actually, IMO ministers should be under active investigation from the moment they take office."

So get ready for this latest house of cards to fall....and watch all those devoted accomplices scurry for cover...all the while feigning surprise, (who me?!)... innocence.... or ignorance.....and like the lady who doth protest too much, trying ever so hard to persuade us all that they were, of course, only guided by "good intentions" all along. (yeah, right).

It is truly tragic how history repeats itself... it makes one think of Nietzsche's groundhog day theory of eternal recurrence, on a personal level of the almost unbearable weight and responsibility of our individual choices and actions....'course the upside of this theory is that a "house of cards" built on betrayal and greed will also continue to topple and fall eternally through time as well. Eventually the corrupt and their accomplices will be exposed and fall over and over again like mere debris from the weighty implosion of their crimes.

As Gandhi once said and I'm paraphrasing here, "Tyrants may seem invincible, but in the end, they all fall. Think of it....always."

Sign this Media Monitoring Contract, that'll be $10,000 please.

Wow. And somebody was trying to tell me yesterday that "the public doesn't care about Basi & Virk".

I must be the only British Columbian in the land who hasn't heard of a media monitoring contract and if I had heard of it, I'd probably have thought it was for somebody to listen, watch, or read how many times a client got mentioned in the media. Silly me.

So I now see that a professional media monitor sways, warps, enhances, Liberalizes or embellishes programs to achieve a certain ... ahem, enhancement for a client.

Right. Got it. But ...

Q. Who decides and how do they tell, whether the desired results have been achieved? And is the fee -- say $10,000. -- linked to results?

In fact, it's so intriguing. Is this nebulous kind of contract made for a certain period of time -- a 60-day contract? a 12-month contract? Is it a personal perk?

Do you get to feel lousy if it's a cheapo contract? Are your kids humiliated on the schoolground? What? How come I've never seen this job on Careers Day recruitment?

I'd love to see one of those contracts. Do they actually say: I promise to make Joe Blow feel really, really good about himself by next summer, for no more than $10,000. a month, sign here. Jeez. The best place to live, eh?

Skook

I recommend for your reading pleasure, and any one else here, a book entitled "Bowering's BC" by George Bowering.

Frank and fascinating and anyone who thinks the liberals are more corrupt that any prior government, may come away from that reading with an altered point of view. At least, they will learn just how far back the ingrained corruption goes.

Kootie, Cain and and Able is a myth, as is the rest of the bible, just like the one certain illiterates keep trying to perpetuate about the Reign Of Error during which the NDP damn near sank this province.

You probably won't like this little history of facts...zealots, political and religious hate facts...can't handle reality.

It is so thorough, it have to post it in several parts.

Outmigration during the Reign Of Error;

http://www.bcstats.gov.bc.ca/data/pop/pop/methmig.pdf
BC STATS
Ministry of Finance and
Corporate Relations

Year...In-Mig...Out-Mig...Net Mig

1985...42,568...45,767....-3,199
1986...49,502...48,592........910
1987...60,913...43,295....17,618
1988...67,500...41,635....25,865
1989...79,371...42,004....37,367
1990...78,389...39,685....38,704
1991...74,459...39,887....34,572
1992...78,596...39,018....39,578
1993...75,227...37,632....37,595
1994...74,511...40,062....34,449
1995...67,105...43,691....23,414
1996...62,728...44,930....17,798
1997...54,029...52,049......1,980
1998...50,170...71,154...-20,984

One needs to consider that a net out-migration from BC of 21,000 people, when the "normal average" was a net in-migration of 37,000, actually means it was worse than the 21,000 leaving, if one also considers the 37,000 less people coming in per year for 6 years.

Expo '86 put us on the map, and we could have been on a roll bigger and better than the rest of Canada, instead of the other way around.

More to come.

Part two

The NDP;

1. Introduced and proudly followed through on 8 consecutive DEFICIT budgets.

2. Reduced British Columbia to the ranks of the 'Have-Not' provinces in Canada.

3. Left a $3.8 BILLION structural DEFICIT.

4. The NDP saw two credit rating downgrades and had the worst fiscal record in Canada during the 1990's.

5. NDP Finance Minister Paul Ramsay stated on Page 95 of their 2001 Budget Report: "Fully funding all these pressures would not be possible given the forecast increase in revenue."

6. TWO FUDGE-IT budgets

7. Corky Evans, current candidate, former NDP MLA, NDP Cabinet Minister, and NDP Leadership Candidate says in the Times Colonist January 17, 2000:

"We made announcements about things we weren't even going to do."

8. At an editorial board meeting with The Vancouver Sun, Ms. James said she doesn't approve of mining unless research shows that it won't harm the environment. While caution is understandable, this approach doesn't bode well for the mining industry because it requires mining firms to prove a negative." From The Vancouver Sun editorial March 20, 2004

9. "In a leadership debate, Ms. James gave a thumbs down to the entire offshore oil and gas industry. In the same debate she also said that to fight global warming, we must cut emissions even more than required by the Kyoto protocol." From the same Vancouver Sun editorial mentioned above.

10. The 1998 BC Hydro scandal involving a plant in India, shares to insiders, wrongful dismissal. Another "gate", good on ya NDP.

More...

NDP Three

11. "...the NDP has also postponed or refused many measures that are urgently necessary. Serious environmental problems remain: global warming, degradation of fish habitat, urban smog, water pollution, loss of biodiversity, and toxic contamination." The Westcoast Environmental Law Association quotes this from a May 20, 1996 report.

12. In 1992 under the NDP, the BC Parks budget was $35 Million, and in 2001 was under $31 Million, while doubling the size of BC's parks and protected lands in their 10 years as government.

13. In the early 1990's the NDP commissioned a report on the quality of drinking water from wells in BC. This report told the NDP to bring in regulations involving the construction and capping of wells for drinking water. They never did! Our guess is they were too busy building ferries and holding Bingos. We're lucky we didn't have a Walkerton episode right here in BC - courtesy of the NDP.

14. "BC has the highest rate of water-born diseases of any province in Canada.."..."The BC Environmental Protection Act, promised for years was drafted but never passed.."..."BC has already seen 142 salmon runs go extinct while 624 more runs are perilously close to extinction.."

From the executive summary of Betraying Our Trust, as found on the seirralegal.org website. They are speaking of the NDP of course.

15. "Hospital workers' wages in B.C. are 12.6% higher than the national average, for example. (Most of that gap opened after 1991 and appears to be a key reason why the Hospital Employees' Union is so loyal to the NDP.)"

"A 1998 study by the Urban Futures Institute found the average B.C. worker's purchasing power declined by 5% between 1983 and 1996. Yet civil servants did not share the pain; they saw a 26% rise in purchasing power."

"Statistics Canada figures show that public-sector workers in B.C. enjoy an across-the-board wage advantage compared to their brethren across the country."

From The Big Fix by Derek DeCloet - BC Report.

16. BC had the third highest Rate of Union Coverage of all provinces according to Statistics Canada, in 2000. Only Quebec and Newfoundland were higher than BC's 35.81% rate. Comparatively, Alberta's rate was 23.75%.

17. Canada led the USA, Japan, and the UK in the number of strikes/lockouts for both 2000 and 2001. Take a look at these Stats Canada statistics:

Canada's 756 total strikes/lockouts was 11x greater than the USA, 3.6x than Japan, & 1.86x the UK

Canada lost 3.9 Million work DAYS from these lockouts and was 1.25x greater than the USA, 61x than Japan, and 3.8x more than the UK.

18. The BC NDP from 1991 thru 2001 did not add any medical school seating allowing BC's doctor shortage to reach crisis levels by 2003.

19. In 1998, 35 rural physicians left their communities due to NDP policies.

20. In 2001, under the BC NDP, British Columbia had the lowest rate of medical spaces per 100,0000 people, at 3.2.

More...

NDP Four

21. "..once in power, the NDP has a record of turning on the very people who supported it."..."..Bob Rae's NDP government in Ontario, elected on promises of taxing the corporations, soon dropped them in favour of ripping up collective agreements, and rolling back public-sector wages."

Two quotes from "For Independent Working-Class Politics" By the IBT, a Socialist Organization

22. In office, NDP governments have cut spending on social programs, closed hospitals, hired 'welfare cops' to harass the poor, slashed government jobs, ripped up collective agreements of public-sector workers.."

Another quote by an NDP supporter, University of Toronto Varsity's Sean Purdy.

23. "The new secure care bill was supposed to be one of the legislative accomplishments of the Dosanjh government, an overdue plan to save children in imminent danger from sexual exploitation or drug abuse.

But less than a year after the NDP celebrated passage of the bill, it's quietly unravelling under a storm of criticism from almost everyone involved in child protection.

And while no one is admitting it, the bill is effectively dead."

Paul Willcocks, Vancouver Sun January 31, 2001

24. They shut parents out of their children's education by giving into the BCTF demands that parental volunteers in schools cost UNION jobs.

25. All those tuition freezes in the 1990's have come back to kick students right in the ***. They blame the Liberals for cutting public education funding, but the NDP had no problem in making post-secondary institutions work for less. Hypocrits.

More...

NDP Five

26. "The NDP's record in B.C. is no better.....(the) government attacked the poorest and most defenceless members of society by imposing an unprecedented three-month residency requirement on welfare recipients."

A quote from "For Independent Working-Class Politics" By the IBT, a Socialist Organization.

27. Back in 1997 when Ujjal Dosanjh was Attorney General for the NDP government of the day, Stewart Bell of The Vancouver Sun revealed that the NDP government's criminal records-check program for persons working with children had approved more than 200 questionable persons -- some convicted of sex crimes involving children.

28. Molly became a blind quadripalegic after a government-chosen foster mother shook the two-month old girl. In a judgment against the BC NDP government, the court awarded Molly’s family as much as $6.3 million should Molly live to the age of 30.

29. When a report was given to the NDP's Lois Boone (Ministry of Children and Families) this spring, Boone responded by cutting back funding and services to the almost 10,000 children in her ministry’s care."

"Ironically, the first plank in the platform of Canada’s New Democratic Party is alleged support for social welfare, yet BC’s NDP government has become infamous for running social programs riddled with negligence and incompetence. Not only does BC’s NDP not put social welfare first, their history suggests they push kids aside to ensure the NDP’s friends, insiders and hacks take home fat government paycheques."

NDP Six

30. During 10 years of NDP governmental destruction, BC became the province with the HIGHEST personal income tax rates in Canada.

31. The BC NDP imposed over $2 Billion worth of new taxes on corporate and PERSONAL income.

32. Royalties, fees and taxes were increased about 1.5 times faster than BC citizens' pre-tax income.

33. A Jobs and Timber Accord was supposed to create 39,800 jobs over five years, 22,000 of them by 2001. Instead, the jobs have continued to disappear.."

(Quote from an article by John Clarke of the Logging and Sawmilling Journal)

34. Direct from Statistics Canada, B.C. was the only province in Canada to shed jobs between January 1997 and January 1998.

Hmmm, the only province what an accomplishment.

35. "Unemployment is doggedly worse in BC than anywhere west of Quebec and remains at 9.7%. In the construction sector, the situation is even worse, with unemployment running around 15% in BC and, according to Stats Can, at 13% in Canada."

"Jobs are created by business activities, yet small, medium and large businesses are leaving, expanding in other provinces, or not coming to BC in the first place."

"Since the NDP government came to power in 1991, labour productivity has been in negative growth territory every year except for a bare 0.05% growth last year. It can be expected to drop again this year as the latest labour code changes are passed into law."

"According to a recent Angus Reid poll, an unprecedented 27% of business people surveyed are contemplating relocation in the next two years. Of those, almost a full third (32%) plan to move to Alberta, 11% are considering Washington or Oregon, while another 10% are looking elsewhere in the US."

From the ICBA website, July 1998.

36. The HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS WASTED on the Fast Ferries and the countless times they revised their allowable budget without any consideration for our hard earned tax dollars.

37. Casino-gate. Remember a certain hotel/bar connected to a certain group of individuals..Should we really say more? Probably not.

38. Bingo-gate. Another fiasco involving a form of gaming, this one though came before the previous mentioned, "gate". Although this one took place in their 1st term in the early 1990's, what is it with the NDP and gaming?

39. The Carrier Lumber fiasco. The NDP Government of the day lost the legal battle, waged an appeal, withdrew its appeal, and was accused of being "duplicitous, " acting in "bad faith", and "withholding evidence" BY THE JUDGE!!!

Did someone say something about 'corruption"? Well, I am prepared to consider the possibility of sheer incompetence...or should that be the likliehood?

Hmmm, you guys sure rattled

Hmmm, you guys sure rattled TRRC's cage....

The RealRealitycheck

WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?

The subject of this thread is the Basi/Virk trial and not the economic slowdown of the 90s.

Would you care to mention that #38 never touched the NDP government because it predated the Harcourt election, 39 is a red herring and while #37 did go to court the Premier was exonerated?

#36 - The ferries were unloaded by the Campbell government, not the Dosanjh government and the ships are in better shape and probably more usable now than some of the ferries in current use. You've completely ignored the downloading of federal costs on the province, the fact the last NDP budget was a recovery budget and was balanced - as confirmed by the auditor general despite Liberal lies and that you haven't noted a thing about the collapse of commodity prices in Asia which led to the recession you're talking about.

I could go on, but your earlier statement about relative corruption between the two regimes is so laughable I can't continue to type I'm laughing so hard.

I'm beginning to think you do have a media contract with the current government.

That's what I would expect

if I had paid big bucks in a media contract. To deconstruct each one of those 39 points would take a huge amount of time, and in the pages of comments and rebuttals that came out of it everybody would have lost focus on the issue being the current basi-virk trial.

The meta message that doesn't get implicitly stated is that all of this is normal, that it has always been that way, and that those that object are simply pissed because they aren't playing the corruption game as well as the winning side. This legitimizes the corruption game by placing the consequences solely on the participants who at worst are thrown in the penalty box for a few minutes, or usually just withdrawn from the game and replaced with new cannon fodder, fresh grease for the tracks. Their is scrupulous avoidance of any hint that this is a systemic fault that once acknowledged would require changes in the law rather than simply punishment of individuals; individuals who however corrupt and guilty are rarely if ever the puppet masters that pull the strings.

Holy Cow

Wow, 39 items. God help us if you're still around when Campbell and Co. are through with this province. There won't be enough room on the thread!

Really wants to avoid Basi-Virk..part 1

And proud of it. As the feds tightened their belt other provinces cut back on services. The NDP did their best to maintain the system.

Funny, but Liberal supporters never like hearing about how BC got lots of extra bucks from the Feds after their record deficit budget.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news for you but you may want to read up on how our debt increased under the liberals.

The documents reveal that British Columbia's total debt was in excess of $37.3 billion on March 31, 2004, the date that marks the end of the most-recent fiscal period. By comparison, when the B.C. Liberals took office in 2001, the total provincial debt stood at $33.6 billion.

http://thetyee.ca/Views/2004/08/09/BCDebt/

And again, proud of it. The NDP maintained the system in the wake of federal cuts and in addition the Asian crisis which impacted BC the hardest of any of the provinces. Costs money to make society work better for people.

While copying your quote you forgot to include a subject.

Really wants to avoid Basi-Virk..part 2

And more from Will McMartin:

A review of the growth of British Columbia's growth in public debt reveals that it is largely non-ideological. That it not to say that governments of the left or right are better or worse at managing public finances, but that the provincial debt has steadily increased regardless of the party in power.

"We made announcements about things we weren't even going to do."

And this makes you sad or what?

Typical Vancouver Sun bullshit. As if proving you won't hurt the environment is a bad thing. What's the alternative? Wrecking the environment and saying you're sorry?

And your problem is what exactly? That you want emissions to be increased?

Gee, insider trading going on inside BC Hydro is an NDP scandal? Do we even know if they were NDPers? Worse than the Socred premier and his brother being involved in insider trading I guess?

Really wants to avoid Basi-Virk..part 3

So the NDP didn't save the world after 5 years in office. I'm shocked.

Not something that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy but I'm confused as to why the guy that is so upset about the NDP not downloading federal cuts is worried about one of the times they did?

You forgot to give the source of your quote. If it was a quote, perhaps it was just you? As for your worry about having a Walkerton episode, well, worry no more. We didn't. Your Conservatives of Ontario however can't say the same.

And this is the NDP's fault? Its your Socred/Libs that have been in power most of the time since that little tussle called WW2, you may want to at least look at them with your best angry-face.

(Source of quote? Just for fun?)

Yes, the NDP should feel ashamed that workers here had better wages. Is my day to whip myself tuesday or thursday this week? Damn, paid people 12.6% better than someone else, oh the shame.

Really wants to avoid Basi-Virk..part 4

Ah yes, Conservative Christians. A long-time friend of the NDP of course.

You say it like that's a bad thing? Most civilized nations would disagree. But then most civilized nations would laugh at BC Report.

tsk tsk, I hate living in a place where labour has the power to fight back.

20. In 2001, under the BC NDP, British Columbia had the lowest rate of medical spaces per 100,0000 people, at 3.2.

I bet we could have if the Feds hadn't been cutting back on everything from provincial transfers to toothpaste. Besides, historically BC has always relied on getting doctors from other places. You may want to take look at the Socred record. Just for old-time's sake.

You don't say? Care to tell us what they were?

Really wants to avoid Basi-Virk..part 5

A quote from "For Independent Working-Class Politics" By the IBT, a Socialist Organization.

I think all of us on the Left were upset over that. I don't agree with everything the NDP has ever done, just a lot more than you do. By the way, what does the IBT have to say about Campbell's welfare policies?

Sounds not so good. So how does it compare with things under the Socreds and Liberals? Just for context of course.

Sounds like you think Harcourt did the shaking. You may want to look at the Liberal record in this area. You just might find that some bad things have happened. Somehow I doubt you'll blame the Libs though, you'll probably blame it on the people in social services won't you?

A report about what? I thought you wanted cuts? Would you be happier if someone told you that those cuts meant less workers or less pay for those workers? Because your other comments suggest that to be the case.

And this quote comes from where? You? Sounds like it lacks any facts and is simply a rant.

Really wants to avoid Basi-Virk..part 6

Is that bad? You may want to read this article about your Liberals

Liberals shifted burden from income tax to sales tax; in effect, from wealthier citizens to poorer.

http://thetyee.ca/Views/2004/10/22/RecordSalesTaxesThisYr/

And what did they do with that 2 billion? Pay all their workers 12.6% more money? Improve schools and hospitals? Cause if that's the case, good job!

Just the price of the Feds balancing their budget. Not to worry, the Feds started throwing money at BC under the Libs. Over 6 billion in increased transfers.

Gee, and have the Libs created those 39,800 jobs or how are they doing on that?

Really wants to avoid Basi-Virk..part 7

Hmmm, the only province what an accomplishment.

This quote is from who? And it selects the worst year of the NDP administration. Yes, the Asian crisis of 1997 hit BC the hardest of any province. This is news?

"Jobs are created by business activities, yet small, medium and large businesses are leaving, expanding in other provinces, or not coming to BC in the first place."

"Since the NDP government came to power in 1991, labour productivity has been in negative growth territory every year except for a bare 0.05% growth last year. It can be expected to drop again this year as the latest labour code changes are passed into law."

Perhaps its cause we paid them the extra 12.6%? Actually, BC in the 90's outperformed the Socreds of the 80's. I know that sounds hard to take since you loved Expo 86, but its true. That made-in-BC recession didn't have a positive effect on the Socred record. Who'd a thunk it.

If the Fast-ferries ticked you off you're going to be really upset about a few things called the Convention Centre, RAV and the Olympics.

Go ahead, say more. Go with facts rather innuendo when possible. Although since the facts are lacking innuendo is all you have.

Yes, people resigned over something they had nothing to do with. Whereas the Liberals don't resign over anything, even when they sit in a drunk tank or the RCMP arrest their aides.

Response to skookum1

If you're going to argue BC history with skookum1 you have to do better than ask him if he's read a book.

You could at least say why you're asking about that particular book.

Not that it matters, he's forgotten more about BC history on his way to lunch than you'll ever know so maybe you're right, avoid him.

30. Personal income tax rates

In BC were never the highest in Canada.

Ever.

Quebec was always higher, and so for a time were Newfoundland, New Brunswick & Nova Scotia.

Yes, they certainly are lower now in BC. But so is the average industrial wage, which dropped from 2001-2003 before finally recovering to the 2001 levels in 2005. Some success, in the midst of the greatest resource boom market in fifty years. Gordo's certainly been no friend of the working stiff.

Makes me wonder about the veracity of your correspondents. Perhaps I should do some checking....

Back to the story...and, by the way, Where is the Scream???

I kinda had to fast forward to get here as I'm afraid this story might get cold and that would be too bad. There's going to be a whole lotta stats-addicts like that Reality Check dude who will try (like Gary Mason did today in the Globe) to make this case go away. We of the left need to speak wisely so as not to fan the flames. This is a legal matter mired in politics and it's going to be a major game for all the insiders. We won't know what hit us. My optimism for anything good coming along sours by the minute.

Where is the scream? How can the people let Campbell screw the province and no one calls him on it? The fat cats are gonna keep quiet.

Pathetic.

Let's at least try and keep this legal issue from being sold to the people as a flower sniffing exercise.

Hahaha!

I knew that would get you spin-meister's into turbo mode.

How many of you apologists are in the employ of the NDP?

I find it endlessly amusing how I am attacked for not discussing Basi-Virk, when I have posted at least as much if not more than many of you.

But, because I not only don't have a rosy view of the despicable NDP , but have the nerve to say so and point out their many flaws and failures, it is far more practical to shoot the messenger.

Speaking of messengers, someone above accused Mason of trying to shunt the trial to one side, one would have to be a career socialist zealot to conclude that from this editorial;

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070421.BCMASON21/TPStory//?query=

In fact, one could argue cogently that the defence is doing more in that direction than any journalist. One would think if there were all this evidence showing the Liberals for the corrupt manipulators they doubtless are, the defence would want all that to come out. Of course, the paranoid socialist if free to now consider the possibility the Liberal party is underwriting the defence, with just the end in mind that, of which, Mason is falsely accused.

SIG

You mean -- actually hold people in power RESPONSIBLE for what they do???? Gasp....!! What are you, some sort of kow-moon-ist??

So it was just a slow sunday TRRC?

All you were looking for was some fun? Well, don't let me stop you, just next time could you trim it down? Unless like someone else suggested and you're getting paid for this - presumably by the word.

Nope.

Sheer fun.

There is a certain mind-set which is absolutely predictable in it's reactions. I enjoy giving them exercise.

I should demure as well, I did not author that lengthy and oh-so-accurate compilation of the NDP Reign Of Error.

Saved it a few years ago from another forum, but the writer's name somehow got lost in the C&P process. I am indebted to him/her in any event, as should posterity be.

Short enough for you? I winder what the NDP is paying all these defenders?

TRRC

You obviously haven't been reading Gary Mason with any diligence. If you have access to the G&M archives have a look at the Christmas present he published for the Basi boys on December 23 2006.

It was entitled: "There is nothing to these charges"

TRRC...

Short enough? Better. Maybe next time pick out your top twenty favorites since you didn't give out the credit anyway.

Sheer fun? Me too. I haven't really thought about who gets paid for what here but some people need to give a refund...

No problem

No problem, been doing this since the Tyee opened up. I consider it a public service to respond to the same rants that sdgreen, JIm and Bongo were making years ago.

The names change but their rants don't.

Frank....

Time to play "the who were you before" game?

BP

Its a really long list of people that during their rants against the NDP have declared everyone else but themselves to be ideologues.

And there's a much shorter list, thankfully, of people who can't even write their own posts and simply regurgitate someone else's.

And both lists continue to grow it seems.

Ain't it funny?

How many people keep shooting at the messenger an ignoring the messege?

Now, we have conspiracy theorists joining the paranoid inagining a shadowy group of non-socialist idealogues who gather together to assume a variety of handles for the soil purpose of pestering the poor socialist idealogues with irrefutable facts, in order to merely watch them writhe in the throes of spin-theory.

I am sorry to disappoint, but I have never been here before, however I do believe I'll stick around awhile, many of you are quite amusing and very predictable.

whatever

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Oh and list of people claiming to only be here for laughs goes way way back and includes working man, noleftnutter, Jean Binette and I as we constantly reminded each other during our discussions.

Its not up to the level of watching the Canucks but I'm always up for a good game of whack-a-mole.

Basi-Virk

Somehow I think if Basi had shot Virk with Collin's office pistol while sitting in the back of Campbell's car as he drove drunk through downtown Victoria that the Libs would still go on and on about the NDP, Nanaimo and a deck instead.

Let me know when that starts

"pestering ...with irrefutable facts"

The RealRealitycheck is this

The RealRealitycheck is this the only way you get your facts by Plagiarizing with no backup sites to substansuate your Rantings?
hum money buys lies or personal "Image Consultant" harper We are being robbed (Grand Larceny) by all levels of government Federal, Provincial and Reginal (Sambo S)
The NDP were angels against this bunch of neo fascist criminals for big biz!
Here try this site TRRC as these are your heroes?
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/index.php
Why are OUR people fighting and dying in Afghanistan for supposedly for their Freedom and Democracy while back in MY BC MY Democratic Rights and Freedoms are under attack by very evil players and also MY Canada?

Frank I like that

Frank I like that "Wack-A-Mole" you hear that TRRC? Moles are nocturnal and only come out at night as they are timmid (chicken) etc
How much are you paid trrc, is it by word probably because you ranted on and on and on, by who?

RCMP

RCMP coverup
http://www.mindytran.com/newwitness.htm
Is this happening to the BC Liberal,BC Rail Verk Basi BC Rail scandal?
channel 104 RCMP Scandal

G Campbell has a long

G Campbell has a long history of political Assasinations, the man and his string pullers are coming very close to being outed! The simple reason that there are some insiders who are also disgusted with herr gordo's evil tactics, the sooner he and his whole gang, along with CanWest Global media Go to prison will be a great day for Democracy in history!
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20070316232256741#comments

responses (various)

I'm typing blind until I get my glasses back later today (if they're at trensit lost & found) and could only read so much above but I'll come back later after these first few rejoinders:

To RealRealityCheck: Bowering's book is piece of flip garbage that's only at its best a hrehash of the better and more thorough histories by the Akriggs and Ormsbys (escept overladen with white guilt and "gee, aren't we wacky?").

But this caught my eye:

Every moment is forever, time is only a perception created by our consciouesnss: that's not mystical; it's biophysics....well, OK, OK, biophysics is kind of mystical but you get the idea....

But more to the point, this passge brought to mind The Inferno, and true enough it's there that Dante has all the miscreants known to his age assigned to their various punshments, many of which more than aptly fitted their crimes. Perhaps a good exercise here might be to decide which of the circles of hell various players in this equation deserve to spend Eternity. Here's a descriptoin of Hell's layout and the various crimes and punishments as discerned/defined by Dante.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dante%27s_Inferno

Note that the "virtuous heathens" are in Limbo, the outermost circle, with unbaptised infants etc. I think agnostics too....anyway. I particularly like the 3rd or 4th Circle, for Panderers & Seducers (most p.r. men) but most of our protagonists belong somewhere in The Pit, which lies within and below the 6th Circle (crimes of the violent); way down in the bowels of the Inferno, or rather frozen arond Lucifer's bowels....is where traitors, treachers and heretics go. I'd venture that somebody who invokes democracy while flouting it falls into the heretic category, depending on how seriously they mean their equivocation; their sins may be only venal and they could be in teh "hypocrites" circle, which is only the 2nd or so. There's also a circle for the Futile up in the outer rings, who chase a whirling banner around the circle, never catching it; that would be the public, being misled by lies....

Anyway, seems like we could have a lot of fun with this. Where would Minos hurl Basi? Campbell? Justice Bennett? Kelly Reichert? Carole James I think belongs somewhere in the Outer Circle - she hasn't been in a situation to committ any greater sins (not public ones anyway), and I'd venture that E. May might get Purgatory somewhere....

"Our's is not judge but to

"Our's is not judge but to be judged"
I've heard or read this somewhere?
While we are mentioning el diablo the devil take a few seconds for this site and let us know what you think!
Enjoy
http://168.143.173.209/IWG_net.swf

Paid Lieberals hacks!

Your kidding right? Bud/Realitycheck/Dillygaff/and a whole lot more I'm sure. Basi and his gang are guilty as sin, and so are Collins,Reid/Falcon and Campbell. It's a bloody shame our national cops are bought in this matter!

phony, coward , and a Bigot

Fabricator/and heathen[url=http://http://www.bctalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=70004&postcount=23]

Nietzschean God

Well, up until the part where the interviewer sat and held hands with God for a while, it seems that God had been reading Nietzsche (of course, bear in mind that God made Nietzsche).....God as an existentialist? I suppose if you had to put up with Eternity for your time frame, existentialism is pretty well the only option...

But after that it got just a bit soppy/preachy. "Just a bit", as in repetitive, too. But the images were beautiful - the one of the Hokusai-like wave action was incredible. But why is it that Americans can take so much more compelling photos of their landscape than most Canadians ever seem to achieve, with only one or two rare exceptions; same with their videographer/cinematographers. I don't know why it is, but it is[/i} the case. Perhaps it's because Canadians, though in awe of their landscape, are also dumbstruck by it, or blind to it. I've seen pictures of spectacular places that look drab, and or minor blips on the landscape exalted as if they were great icons (with mediocre photography...e.g. the Fraser Canyon from Yale to Lytton, as if that were the most scenic part [i]which it's not. I've seen stunning pictures of the Muskwa and Chilko and Stikine areas - but these are rareties, and amid the photographic jewels of those and other places I've seen, there's ten to twenty times as much dull, dull, dull photos/photobooks as anything else. And as for Vancover scenics, how many more pictures of the North Shore Mountains and Canada Place, with a bit of Brockton Point in the view, can we stand?

cont.

In fact, some of the best pictures I've seen of Canada were taken by non-Canadians, often Americans......I think because American culture exalts certain bits of its topography; oddly enough they have more "nature worship" or "scenery worship" somehow; that shot of St. Helens was a good case in point, or of the Tetons. Find me one that stunning of the Tantalus, or of the Canadian Cascades....

Years ago one of the pro photographers in Whistler held a mountain photo competition in the Delta (the only hotel with a ballroom at the time where it could be shown). There were heaps of amazing pictures from the depths of the Garibaldi Ranges and the Lillooet and Pemberton Icecaps and even remoter places; amazing, stunning work by locals.....the pro, who shall remain nameless (OK, OK, it was Greg Griffiths, who had one of the film/frame shops), himself specialized in minimalist sunset stuff - horizon, setting sun, lots of colour saturation. His students fielded a bunch of these, which went by without comment relative to the oohs and ahs of deep mountain shots.....

Guess who won? That's because professionals in the arts in Canada - commercial, "high culture" or popular - have an interest in maintaining the standards of mediocrity which allowed them to reach their "artistic success" (which means being "safe enough" to either get enough grants or market yourself to be able to be a materialist pig like everybody else).

DISSEMBLING REALCHEKS REAL MOTIVE ???

ya don't say..........geez,some one else reads him RIGHT............

www.vivelecanada.ca/article.p

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20070316232256741#comments
Who are these traitorous so called Canadians giving/Selling US down the road for the NWO besides the S Harper, Federal Libs and who is behind the "Good Old Boys Club" G Campbell, R Klein here to fore known as the "bobbsie twins" lol
NAFTA = B Mulroney, J Creation, P Martin, S Harper Canada's home grown traitors = Canada's terrorists against US the People of this once Proud, Great Nation.
TILMA = Bobbsie Twins
Sam = "Project Civil City" $75. fine for celabrating OUR VANCOUVER CANUCKS win or lose? What a dud he's turning out to be.

So many scandals! Where is

So many scandals!
Where is the CanWest Global Media?
How is it that this little bit of garbage gordo is still in power?
What ever became of the inquiry into the suspicious 700+ children's deaths in BC that were so called misplaced files supposedly were found in a storage shed?
WE are the only voice these little souls have!
For a bit of a distraction/rest for the soul try this site!
http://168.143.173.209/IWG_net.swf

Man

all that blather and hardly a word about the topic matter.

Skook, all the fantasy stuff about gods and hells is, I am sure entertaining...to someone, but aside from a writing exercise, what's the point?

It is all opinion and not a nanobit of fact. Might as well read philosophical mysticism into Goldilocks and the Three Bears.

TRRC...

I'll give my opnion on this thread by roughly quoting a previous poster in saying my opinion sours with each passing hour, day, week, month and year.
I don't care that previous gov't were just as bad or worse I care that this group ran around promising the "most open and accountable" and is giving the exact opposite. I care...geez, I gotta go, I'll finish this later.

all that blather and hardly a word about the topic matter

Look who's talking.

39 Points posted last night and not a single one ON TOPIC.

It is all opinion and not a nanobit of fact.

And so utters T.R.U.C. (The Real Unreality Check), after kindly showing us several examples of what he means........

Events have moved on!

Time to leave TRRC to his own devices. Maybe he's used to spinning his tyres waiting for a heads-up from Bill Good's producer.

The real news is here:
http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/

Two fresh reports from Courtroom 53, links and comments.

Yessir!

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20070423095454777

a tangent is a tangent

I'd been asked (by BCDude) to look at this "intereview with god" thing and taht was my response. Sorry if you were looking for something relevant to do with hte topic per se. Indirectly it is, i.e. where I got to - the failing of the Canadian arts community/intelligentsia to address corruption and democratic reform; they're all on the public teat and know better.....(0r depend on the media for their careers, so won't criticize it).

THAT is what my tangents had to do with; the visit to the Inferno was a suggesiton for a game - "pin the politician on the tail of the devil" by selecting the most appropriate circle of hell for each one. Have a browse through the Wiki article and give us your rundown, even if it's a hated NDPer you want in malebolgi where the sodomites and sorcerers and those who sold false indulgences go....

"False indulgences" is pretty close, I guess.....i.e. to influence peddling, except it's not God/the Pope you're trying to buy off.

Speaking of which when I saw the Sun's headline today, without reading the article, it eerily seemed like it might have somethign to do with Ledgegate. But no not THAT lobbyist, but another one. My take on the Dobell-Campbell thing it's a red herring to try and take attention away from "Basi-Virk" (meaning the case, not them specifically).

Yeltsin obit on CBC; Putin-Campbell as czar

There was an interesting line, which I'll try and almost quote intact as it was just a minute or two ago, in The Journal[/i's obit on Boris the walrus tonight:

Not quite exact but close enough and you get the drift; those were the meanings of the key phrases, if not [i]verbatim.

The images of the newly-reminted neo-Tsarist media post-Yeltsin were in bright primary colours - the anchor's tie a slightly pinker shade of red than Tony Parson's, the haircut like Mark Steines the GQ dude on Entertainment Tonight, and the shot of Yeltsin being interviewed was like one of these friendly interviews with Campbell we see all too often on Goobal......the advertising/slick flavour of the broadcast was remarkable. Made me wonder if CanWest had consulted them on set design and format....

As for crude forms of political repressoin, well court bans on highly-charged political cases aren't the same as the docket that was shown, with some dissident on trial. But we do have our Betty Krawczyks and mysterious court proceedings and non-inquirires into government and other official wrondoing. And don't point at Chechnya to dismiss this - it was Yeltsin's doing...

The difference over there, of course, is that Putin has put quite a few of the oligarchs, the new "mystery men" money class, in jail, Khodorovsky (the richest) most of all. Oh, and Putin is a much nattier dresser than any stylist could ever help Campbell dude himself up to...

BTW why is it that OminTrax hasn't been charged for attempting to bribe a public/political official? Or is that not against the law, only accepting the bribe is?

Back to Boris, who despite his wonderous oafishness and slobberingly drunk goonin' around - not since Pierre have we seen a world leader dance in public (and before that it was Adolf...any others?) - is surely one of the most fascinating characters of the 20th Century. As CBC's whomever summed up from Moscow (again parhaphasing):

Dobell-Campbell and hell to pay in the bushtowns...

We obviously haven't had our Yeltsin yet (unless you want to count various 19th C. figures...), and unfortunately we don't have our Boris Spassky yet either....but as for Yeltsin's legacy, which did not include any ideology or lasting political reforms; like BC's middle classes and especially upper classes, Russians wanted stability and so chose the guy who could deliver it, at whatever cost to democratic rights and prorprieties.....sound familiar?

If only the Socreds and Liberals (and the NDP) would leave no ideology in their wwke and get about the business of serving the public and, um, saving the world (anybody listening? - I mean that in a very matter-of-fact way, not as eco-hippie hyperbole) And serving the public includes accountability. And to be sure, if resources (including public funds and assets) are misdirected, and mismanaged/malmanaged, it's going to have an impact on the ecology (and not just from fast-tracking environmental reviews or even bypassing them). And "the ecology" here means bad planning for the future; the environment now is recognized, I hope, or soon will be, as the economy (eco- meaning the same thing in both those words...economy="law/rule of the household/system"; selling coal to countrie with low polllution standards, hyping offshore oil drilling etc etc. That's bad policy, straight out; not just resources being given away, but actually incurring us further costs (our weather changes as some of you may heard are supposed to have to do wit pollution levels in China - helped along by that coal we sell them....).

I meant to rrtitle that one; this is the campbell-dobell section

On the basis of the imputations of Dobell-Campbell alone, under British constitutional convention Campbell should resign...as Collins should have done quite a while ago (and Coleman). I can kind of see Campbell's position that because Dobell was only a lobbyist for the CoV, there's no apparent conflict of interest. Yeah, well, except, can a town like Lillooet or Nakusp or Vanderhoof afford a lobbyist and get equal time at the first ministerial ear? No doubt Kamloops, Kelowna, Victoria, PG and certain others can, but few others; and it's still a special relationship for one "client" of the government, even if that client is acreaure of the provincial government (as munis are in BC). Cozy isn't quite the word for it; it's cozier than that. Snuggly, even.

In the outback this won't sell well; I can bet for sure that there's cusswords coming out of the mouths of more than one rural/smalltown mayor tonioght; there's only so much "Olymipc legacy" dough outside of Vancouver and Whistler; even the bigger Interior cities already have their nose out of joint; many who hasn't been able to get commnunity facilities and services going but sees all the megaspending in Vancouver, and not just for the Olympics, and the ongoing lack of return to their areas of the revenues they generate for the province (an old stat: someone outside the Lower Mainland/Greaer Victoria generates 15k ea to the GPP, those in the the metros about 5.5k...).

Not that the Okanagan needs a TGV to tie Penticton to Kamloops in 2.5 hrs or less....but here's an idea: how about funding for mon-automotive small city design for BC's growing cities, so we don't replicate the stripmall and culdesac hell of the Fraser VAlley. Which we all know now is no longer viable; we've got enough Europeans here who grew up with railway living that it's certainly saleable at the ballot box as something more than sentimentality or tourist value.

Give Nelson and Trail back their streetcars, for example....(oh, and Lillooet could use a daily coach service to Vancouver like it had from 1915 until 2001 (2000? I've forgotten).....1915 was from Squamish via ferry from the north foot of Cambie-Abbott-Carrall; was it '55 or so when Howe Sound was opened?

and why is this corruption?

Well, it's because there has to be some reason why certain centres in BC are the focus of so much public largesse, and others are not. Even when theyr'e just af few miles down the road from each other....

And communities are actually supposed to have publicly-paid lobbyists to get the government's ear. They're called MLAs; the govenrment ones do what they're told, the opposition ones get ignored. But they're supposed to be lobbyists for their constituents.

Not their political parties and their backers.

anbd I meant to say

re "being just down the road from each other", is that waht a marvel it is that the new pavement runs out virtually at Whistler Village; calls for pavement, as I've said before, have been coming from Bralorne even when it was the main economic generator in the entire SLRD (well, other than Hydro), and even a half-decent gravel road to Seton Portage would help that place out a lot; as also the old proposal to use a rail ferry from D'Arcy to Lillooet (like the old "Gas-Car" between Shalalth and Lillooet, just a flatbed for the cars with a couple of passenger cars along). And despite years of fitfull bits and starts, Highway 40 from Gold Bridge to Lillooet still isn't paved.

This is in the same Regional District as Whistler. But Whistler is pretty much a world unto itself and the well-being of its sister communities is not exactly high on its agenda; especially those which might wind up as rivals as ski hills (which is why Bralorne has always wanted that pavement....).

Olympic spin-off spending is reaching Pemberton, but no further north....I can hardly wait until the international media uncover the social and economic conditions in Mt. Currie and beyond......Weetama is the Potemkin Village; the reality of the "aboriginal shtetl" is to be found in the country of the Lil'wat, and while Canadian media are wondrously blind don't expect the same from others (even sports reporters are nown to have consciences....).

and....

...and it won't get it until the right people own Bralorne. It's not the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. It's the greasy palm.....

urrrrgh

should have put quotes on "the right people" as in

Just wanting to be clear...

Skook

You've outdone yourself.....! Bravo!

well, on a similar tack...

during the course of our expansion of the BC historical database in Wikipedia, there's a subproject concerning all the scandals in BC history (including ones that don't have names like the Military Lands Scandal I mentioned somewhere recently) and the long-forgotten/swept-under-the-rug Powder Mountain ski project fiasco came to mind:

There's an example of yet another suspect set of dealings on the part of the provincial government; Nan Hartwick alleged this time and time again, against the Premier personally (Vander Zalm), but no investigation of any kind was launched despite some clearly weird procedural stuff. That the RMOW may have also had a lobbyist on the case is very likely; which begs the question as to who that might have been.

Not a scandal that's ever likely to get fully dug up, but yet another "smoke signaL" of the infernal fires burning beneath our parliamentary-government-paradise's heavenly veneer....

Another freaking

Another freaking scandal
http://nid-16606.newsdetail.bcndp.ca/
New Testament
" a battle for the truth over the lies of the devil and his human servants.

This is the real masters of

This is the real masters of greed
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279

Dobell and now Taylor

I think the reason the Sun broke the Dobell story is largely so they can eventually softsoap it and downplay it; again, the appearance of objectivity, but there's got to be reason to trot out the Dobbell maybe-scandal - and pretty clear the main reason is to get the press heat off Ledgegate - but now with Taylor as well, and more special-dealing for Vancouver with a Premier who was a special-dealing Vancouver mayor himself....

I'm starting to think that lobbyists and lobbying should be illegal. What is it, really, other than legalized influence-brokering?

You're on a roll

I say we get a petition together to have skookum write a weekly column instead of Glavin.

more on Hartwick and Vander Zalm and ski industry geopolitics

Meant to go on about Powder Mountain; for those who don't remember her, Nan Hartwick was the promoter of Powder Mountain, which "ironically" enough would have been in the same valley where (ahem) the Olympics Nordic facilities and athletes' sillage (?) are going.

Big question that just popped to mind: was anybody currently with VANOC on any of the panels or committees or groupes of aides working on the Powder Mountain case, or in Vander Zalm's office at the time? - ??!!!

There was some kerfuffle about Hartwick wanting an end run around the environmental review process to fast-track the process, and something else had to do with Vander Zalm backing or connected to a rival plan, or some other cozy relationship that Hartwick said was in the way of her getting her project approved.

There were questions about Powder Mountain's viability -("too much terrain above treeline" was Whistler/Blackcomb's complaint...and guess where their major expansions have been ever since? and a host of environmental issues, as well as whether the small village at Callaghan Lake was itself viable and/or ecologically friendly; in a rare instance of preservationism on the part of the Socreds, that's partly how the no-go on Powder Mountain also was sold; this didn't keep that valley from being clearct in the meantime...or from it now being undertaken as part of an Olympic site. Hartwick, wherever she is, must be gnashing her teeth....

Hartwick et al. cont.

I can't remember the rest of it; perhaps someone else here does; there was a lot of apparent dirt there that both the government and the media wanted to look away on, and Hartwick had no friends on the left/green end of thing; ardent Ayn Rand-isan entrepreneur that she touted herself to be, like all good Socreds. Oh that was part of it - she expressed her dismay that even as a loyal Socred she couldn't get her way with Vander Zalm, that's what a nutcase she was (she implied); she asked for an inquiry and never got one, the whole thing got shrugged off but the questions never went away, i.e. as questions worth asking, even if nobody's asking them. Her implication with that protest is also that Socreds could expect special favours from the government, in addition to being religiously-dedicated free enterprisers, as Hartwick certainly was. Whistler's meddling in the game is fair ball in BC business, whether or not professional lobbyists were involved; Whislter as a community/corporate organism has enough professional talent and cash to do its own lobbying, of course (especially the p.r./marketing dept.); but lobbying is lobbying even if it's not from outside. If there was any imputation of unfair process favouring another commercial rival who was closer to the govenrment, that's obvious "influence engineering" if not exactly "influence merchandising". Overall it's part of the bigger question of the way our system works, with MLAs and governments working closely with their political backers in not only making policy but in making decisions affecting the economic and due-process rights of others...

I"m trying to think who was mayor right then - Drew Meredith I think, not Ted Nebbeling; Ted was on council at the time, I think, but I can't remember his position on Hartwick's proposal. And while very socially-liberal, Ted is another freewheeling entrepreneur type, drawn into the rightist fold because he can't be or vote NDP (as with most of the Whistler money crowd....very ironically since it was the NDP who passed the legislation enabling the RMOW and the WRA).

Dead-duck Premiers long out of office are rarely investigated, even less so than those in office (secretly or otherwise - and don't think the CIA didn't keep a file on Dave Barrett....), and as it happened Powder Mountain got upstaged by a whole bigger can of worms called Fantasy Gardens (at last, mercifully, to be torn down as a vestige of a grotesque public embarrassment and an incredibly tacky "theme park", which Bill had dreams of rivalling Disneyland...). Whatever happened to Tan Yu, anyway? And where's Faye gotten to?

Tangent about Bralorne

Tangent about Bralorne:

"Too much terrain above treeline" this was also a criticism levelled at Sunshine Mountain, which would have been the first of Bralorne's three or four potential hills - all mostly above tree line with miles of backcountry basins and about 6000' of potential vertical - 7000' down to Gold Bridge (Sunshine's the nose of the range in between Cadwallader and Noel Creeks, which converge opposite "downtown Bralorne", which is on the slope of the Bendor Range; the other potential hills were Noel, to the west of Noel Creek, and Greenmount, a lower knoll with less vertical but on on a ridge that faces its parent, Mount Sloan, which looks like the Matterhorn from one direction and a bizarre demonic fang from the other; its advantage would be the size of its base village around Gwyneth Lake, which is the plateau between Downton Lake Reservoir and the Hurley River, just west of Gold Bridge and the Gun Lakes. Real estate, real estate, real estate, and tons of sunshine in all seasons of the year, and (so far) abundant snow - all powder. That's competition for any hill.

It's all a question of who comes to own it and has thte clout to get infrastructure in to service its development, and to get around environmental reviews and objections (which the Greene-Raine's Cayoosh Resort near Dufeey Lake didn't); the called-for highway has been the vision, at one point a cog railway connecting with the PGE at McGillivray Falls was also cooked up as a way to keep the town open after the mine closed. with what's going on in the world automotive-based tourism isn't going to keep on going much further; so remote places are going to have to look for other solutions.....(Me, I'm for airships. Time to revive the dirigible...)

Lately I hear there's been a buy-up of available land in the Bridge River and Lillooet areas by Whistler money. Should be any time now we hear..."any time" including a few years, not a few months only; my guess is that "they" clued in to the area in advance of the Olympics; Americans and Germans have already been quietly buying it up for years...

addendum

sorry; meant to "close" that by saying that real estate prices in that country have finally started to skyrocket out of their closed-mill-syndrome lull; watch them to reach a certain level and there'll be this catalytic effect of cappucino shops and designer duds and a different retail atmosphere in that town; probably tacky-tourist Whistlierization but hopefully at least some of the local sensibility will prevail....this will come whether the First Nations like it or not...but they'll probably cash in on it; the busiest place in town is Lightfoot Gas out on 99 in the Seton Gorge, on one of the Pashilqua IRs (Cayoose Creek Band).

Talk about being

Talk about being accomplisses it is "WE WHO ARE ACCOMPLISSES" to let this Government go on!

"That Basi and Reichert worked to "find a way to get Paul Nettleton's expenses out," to presumably embarrass the former Liberal MLA who quit the caucus over the B.C. Hydro privatization and was critical of the B.C. Rail deal"
Thank you Paul Nettletonfor having the decency and courage to stand-up against this vile, obnoxious, little man, that's more than I can say for the rest of the MLA's. "Most Lawless Assembly" 2001-2007

Great write ups

Great write ups Skookum1!
Lots of information as someone suggested maybe do a Tyee write up as I enjoy reading BC's political history and who might profit from the past?
Brings back memories of many old scandals, are we ever going to learn?
Fay Leong the many colourfull hats gal!
Vander Scam etal getting closer to his/their Maker!

Great write ups

Great write ups Skookum1!
Lots of information as someone suggested maybe do a Tyee write up as I enjoy reading BC's political history and who might profit from the past?
Brings back memories of many old scandals, are we ever going to learn?
Fay Leong the many colourfull hats gal!
Vander Scam etal getting closer to his/their Maker!

Correct Kootkoot re: W.A.C.'s Legacy

~ Kootkoot

It is important to correct misstatements made on the Tyee site. Kootkoot your correction re: Skookuml's post is correct. This was a Premier who knew how to build British Columbia with a vision,. . . a vision for all BC'ers not just friends & insiders.

The agenda of the Campbell Govt. is truly a crime - plundering that legacy of the Hon. WAC Bennett that was built for the people of BC. WAC deserves respect & recognition for what he did on behalf of this Province & its citizens - he made his money through hard work & 'smarts'. He knew how to keep his enemies close which was brilliant. He wasn't perfect - just the best Premier this Province has ever seen.

VanderZalm destroyed it - he resigned in disgrace having abused the power of his office. Ethics in government went out the window. He was a blight on the Province's history.

'SharingisGood" - you are right on the mark when you suggest that many of the same circle surrounding VanderZalm are in fact, key players under Gordon Campbell.

Look no further than Martyn Brown Campbell's Chief of Staff (loyal 'Zalmoid'; the key 'bag-men' of the Socreds & senior land bureaucrats that lurked in the shadows during the VanderZalm era - are tight & in tact today - their agendas/their alliances have never changed

It's all about Land & plundering crown assests for a small circle.

The behind closed doors/cover-ups have continued into the Campbell regime because it is essentially the same group with a different label - the same vested interests/agendas. Therein lies the core problem. The answer lies in exposing the TRUTH which is underway with the trial on the Raid on the Leg.

Speaking about such cover-ups: Please read further post below correcting the facts that require correcting from Skookum1 posts on the Hartwicks & the Callaghan Valley scandal. Facts are important, Skookum1 . . .

Callaghan Valley/Hartwick

Fine, if there's facts in conflict with what I remember -and remember, I'm mostly parroting Nan Hartwick's allegations, not making up my own..... then by all means post them. If you have facts - and what facts there were concerning Powder Mountain/Callaghan Lake were sketchy at best, thanks to our yellow press and even yellower politicians - then by all means produce them.

As for:

No, Bill Bennett destroyed any semblance of constitutional or moral credibility that his father's regime had built up; like the NDP he also squandered his father's investment in the future by re-investing us in the resource sector, which was NOT the vision that WAC had in mind when he built all those powerdams and highways. From BCRIC through to the constitutional interregnum of April 1-5 January 1983 - or have you chosen to forget that wanton abuse/arrogance? - through to the "mysterious" buyout of the Nicola Valley by the Bennett family and/or their corps/friends in advance of the announcement of the Coquihalla - conveniently smokescreened by the Doman scandal.....

No, you can go ahead and blame Bill VdZ all you want; he was just the icing on the cake, but the cake was already rotten to the core and was from the minute MacBlo bankrolled the 1975 election campaign and was rewarded the next year with a new Forests Act which turned over the bulkof the Government Reserve (85% of the province) to bulk timber extraction at the hands of a very few companies, with MacBlo at the head of the pack.

Skookum1: Factual clarification re:Hartwicks & Callaghan Valley

"There's an example of yet another suspect set of dealings on the part of the provincial government; Nan Hartwick alleged this time and time again"

Skookum1

Skookum1: Nan Hartwick continues to be RIGHT. Your posts need important clarification of the facts vs assumptions re: this case:

Nan Hartwick's company followed the rules & red tape of Government process; believing it would work in the best interests of British Columbians - Instead was robbed of her legal rights through by unscrupulous bandits at the highest levels of Government.

Her company won the final, Government Proposal Call: the sole, legal Proponent; with NO paid lobbyist; a true entrepreneur requiring nor requested any taxpayer dollars. If more people had Mrs. Hartwick's courage, vision & tenacity, the Province would be in better shape![/b]

Viability of this project was NOT an issue in the private sector. Fraudulent studies ordered by land buraucrats were uncovered spreading false information. The project stands on its own merits having superior conditions to Whistler whose viability WAS an issue, with taxpayer bailout & rampant protectionism.

VanderZalm derailment of Nan's legal rights began inhis first week in the Premier's Office.injecting a former Attorney General & his pals into Nan's company's legal position. Nan was brutally shoved aside.

Skookum1: The Hartwicks did NOT want any favours from VanderZalm! They were the legal proponent proceeding with their project when VanderZalm interfered.

Outraged at what VanderZalm had done they wanted their legal rights back; publicly demanding it. Attorney Generals lawyers were preparing legal documents for their company. No one, had the right to interfere. The Minister of Lands told him to stop - VanderZalm persisted.

Nan believed that public exposure & Cabinet ethics would prevail as they all knew she was the winning proponent. Instead the prized pigeons stuck their heads in the sand; some prominent in Campbell's Cabinet, today. Are we surprised?

Senior land bureaucrats involved with the WRA spread deceit every which way to derail this project, for their own vested interests.

The Hartwicks, their investors & lawyers did not expect favours after winning the Proposal Call. They EXPECTED FAIR DUE PROCESS. Instead they were dealt corruption. The depth of which most British Columbians could never imagine. [/b]

Skookum1, you bet this case is a BIG "smoke signal" to the continuing corruption in government & very relevant to the scandal today.

Your questions are worthy re: Vanoc & the Callaghan Valley's Nordic Venue. Who are the players involved & are they linked to Nan's company's derailment?The answers are out there.

The Hartwicks have not gone anywhere,nor have their supporters. Stay tuned . .

OK, but...

Well, I was living in Whistler at the time and it was an issue there, at least in Whistler's business community. I know the WRA had a (negative) position, and while the mountains' p.r. depts themselves may not (?) have made any public criticisms, individual prominent Whistler-industry people were openly critical of the province; the tree-line criticism was from more than one of these - it may have originated with Ecosign, the ski-hill planning company that is/was (?) also part of "Whistler, Inc. I also remember the irony of the heli-skiing companies opposing the project, along the same lines of argument, when at the time it was their preferred "turf".

As for the rest of your post, that's a relief; I thought were going to deny that anything had gone down at all. As per my comments about Hartwick, she did not say directly that she expected favours; but she did express dismay that as a card-carrying Socred and as a serious entrepeneurial capitalist, she could get no cooperation/response from the government/Premier; what it said to me, between the lines, is that there is a sense of entitlement in the business establishment (which was synonymous with Socredism in those days...other than Bob Williams that is); she was not asking for favours, but asking why she didn't get fair treatment and someone else apparently was getting the end-run around her project (using their influence/relationship with the Premier.

And yeah, thanks for underscoring the VANOC question. It needs answering; but a lot of questions about VANOC need answering. And as with all other authorities, crown corps, et al., we're not likely to get any answers, nor is there any opportunity to ask the questions....

and for the record....

Unlike other greenies I'm pro-skiing, so long as it's not skiing+mega real estate, and was a supporter of the Powder Mountain project, as well as the Greene-Raine's Cayoosh Resort. What I see south of the line, say in Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Wyoming - is a host of small towns with their own ski hills and "indigenous economies", as opposed to megaproject condos/hotels and chain stores; tourism and skiing aren't concentrated in just one or two states there; and any ski hill that opposed the development of others near by would be seen as protectionist and counter-free enterprise. "The right to make money" is paramount in the US, as we all know; but it also means that small (and large) entrepreneurs have a fairer shake at getting their projects rolled forward without interference from the competition. And lots of small towns have a tourism-friendly economy that has neither been overrun by, nor governed by, the mega-realty companies (as is the case with Whistler).

At Aspen, Aspen Mountain and Aspen Highlands are right "in town", two others are farther down the valley towards I-70 - Snowmass and...?? FWIR they were all originally separate companies; they may be merged now the way Whistler-Blackcomb is; but they didn't try and shit on Leadville, Glenwood, or other local, smaller hills. Whistler has done this consistently with Powder Mountain, Cayoosh, Bralorne, Brohm Ridge.....all in order to have a strangelhold on tourism dollars in the region, combined with a land supply that's regulated to keep prices high. Whistler loyalists back then were point-blank about not wanting people to see the better scenery/climate just farther north "because we want them spending their money here". Boy that's neighbourly, when you're "super-rich" and the people whose towns you're keeping visitors from knowing about and spending money in live in a marginal economy and (partly because of Whistler's plastick-ness) have learned to despise tourism, but now need it; the only model presented to them is the Whistler one, and the way this country regulates thing only mega-tourism is likely to ever go in there, because the government and resource companies and their workers have been hostile to expansion by smaller tourism operators (whether Tyax Resort or the various shot-down proposals to build at least one decent hotel in Lillooet so bus tours can stop there....)

Waiting for the Hartwick shoe to drop....

Nice to know they're around and kicking; I was wondering when the Callaghan Lake/Powder Mountain/Hartwick-Vander Zalm question would surface; but more interesting than Vander Zalm, as noted, is who else was involved in kiboshing Powder Mountain who may be now with VANOC, contracted to VANOC, or any other little loose doo-dad of impropriety.

Time to unbury about 40 scandals in the last quarter of the 20th century. Would help if we had an open press, though....but if we did, we would have known the truth of all these things a long time ago, instead of being subjected to repeated editorial incantations that the Fast Ferries was "the biggest scandal" in BC history, a pronouncement which is far short of the mark. Especially considering stuff that's been swept under the rug, like Powder Mountain. Or the Ledgegate cover-up and all the related matters to do with p.r. firms on the public payroll and govt staffers doing the Premier's dirtywork...well, it's not so much under the rug any more but there are efforts to push it back there. But hmmm federally-connected Liberals plus advertising contracts.....maybe this would attract the national news' attention more if those ads had been used to promote the Liberal Party's ideology/objectives as was the case in Quebec.....oh waitaminit, that's what the BC ads were.....

ask yerself????????????????

does PAUL REITSMA still have anything to do with these KLOWNS...

is he COACHING the DIRTY TRICKS PLATOON ???

ARE ,BOTH,HE AND HERR KAMPBELL...CUT FROM THE SAME CLOTH ?????????????

geez...is this CANADA OR KANADA ???

The bottom card of the Callaghan Valley Scandal

Skookum1

You are either psychic or very well connected!

Your astute questions & line of logic, Agent 0007, is the bottom of this House of Cards that is about to come crashing down. It is all about key 'linkages'. People who practice deceit & think they have gotten away with it, fall into the trap of arrogance.

Since I know the Hartwicks well, I will relay your keen interest.

thomas 49

Reitsma was just an early prophet.

They've codified and refined the message a lot since then.

Or so they thought until it was discovered the phone was being tapped..

The sad part of this investigation is the compromised behavior of some of the horsemen.

I'm not surpised that the

I'm not surpised that the Auditing firm KPMG was called in to investigate ex-deputy minister, now ICBC chief Paul Taylor
Lindsay Kines and Jeff Rud
Times Colonist - April 19, 2007
http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=5860b950-8f72-48eb-826e-4113f85d1c12&k=22996

KMPGstill under investigation
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/29/kpmg.justice/index.html
Damn, RCMP

a real Rubix cube of corruption!
The CanWest TV news nothing except snippits?
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/2007012422395590/print

more psychic than well connected

Your astute questions & line of logic, Agent 0007, is the bottom of this House of Cards that is about to come crashing down. It is all about key 'linkages'. People who practice deceit & think they have gotten away with it, fall into the trap of arrogance.

Since I know the Hartwicks well, I will relay your keen interest.

Psychic or just perceptive of the, "gee if A is B, and B is C, than A is B" variety; I've been curious about the Powder Mountain issue since Whistler annexed the Callaghan Valley as part of its Olympic expansion, and the notion that somebody at VANOC was involved previously was just a "hmmmm" arising from the Dobell/Taylor consulting contracts thingie, and my general discomfort with "the way things are done" overall.

My own view is that Powder Mountain and Brohm Ridge and Cayoosh and a few other ski-hill ideas in that area would have helped diversify the economy and also created living and work opportunities very different from the high-costs wage-slavery of the Whistler locals labourforce. Long ago I think Ipsoot Mountain or the mountain opposite it, i.e. across the Pemberton Valley - Ronayne/Sun God - were also fielded as possibilities, but I'm not sure how long ago; or was it Railroad Pass? And I do know the In-SHUCK-ch Nation are hoping to attract at least a small ski hill to the Port Douglas area.....

Yes, I am keenly interested though only because of my strong interest in the region's future/history and also in public democracy overall. I can be reached btw through my account at www.wikipedia.org as "User:Skookum1"; there's an email link on the right hand side of that page....

postscript

And please tell Ms. Hartwick that she has my sympathy and, while I was a nobody at the time (and still am) was a staunch supporter of her project (even though I'm a greenie, or get accused of being one - and I'm not a skier, btw).

Good energy will always overcome bad . . .

Skookuml, you surely have a keen sense of cutting through the garbage to the stench re: the Powder Mountain, Callaghan Valley scandal. You 'get it' re: the stinky circle who are at the bottom of the derailment. Contrary to your words: you are 'Somebody' with integrity & a lot of wisdom.

Your input & good wishes were given to Nan Hartwick. She was delighted & thanks you with a smile.

There IS motion on this 'file'. Like the saying goes:

.

People that operate on a low level of integrity simply don't understand people who DO - like Nan Hartwick & clearly, you! Having integrity means fighting back against corruption & never giving up until you succeed. After all, the Hartwicks have Irish in their veins . . . & they are women, too!LOL

They KNOW exactly where the rot lies within a circle that has operated for too long not in British Columbians' best interest's & needs to be cut out.

I know that many of your ideas expressed above, mirror what the Hartwick's plan for their Resort: Community minded, & family oriented.

Talk about assets: Todd Brooker, the World Cup Downhill Champion & Crazy Canuck has been part of the Hartwick's team since day one & has never wavered in his committment to put the resort back on the rails & his loyalty to the Hartwicks.

BTW - you are right about Bill Bennett: he was not his father & the 'team' of insiders around him jumped to VanderZalm & now to Campbell - same old, same old. Thus the BC Rail Scandal.

Speaking of rot . . .

Skookum1

This, chapter specifically, has been THE sanitized ROT FACTOR - in this concerted cover-up.

Re: your "notions" on Ecosign - Paul Mathews involvement in the circle focused on blocking the Hartwick's ski resort:

Did you know that the Premier's Office in the mid 1980s removed the Deputy Minister of Lands from government over the ordering of a fraudulent report on the Powder Mountain Resort? His colleagues became career bureaucrats with an agenda to block the Powder Mountain Resort, even after their legal rights were secured. The Deputy who also sat on the Whistler Resort Assn.

Proof surfaced that a fraudulent report was ordered by Lands bureaucrats with a pre ordained intent to STOP the Powder Mountain Resort all at taxpayers expense - in excess of $100,000; their buddy, Whistler consultant Ecosign was hired to write the sham report?

Guess who got a huge contract from the land bureaucrat on Vanoc for the Callaghan Valley? EcoSign.

Did you also know that the key senior land bureaucrat that intentionally spread deceit throughout Cabinet & Govt. Ministries, manipulating the system 'every which way', with the sole purpose of derailing the Powder Mountain Ski Resort - was THE "pointman" under Land & Water BC, "annexing the Callaghan Valley" for Vanoc?

Did you know that this key senior land bureaucrat prominent in the House of Cards, sat with the fired Deputy Minister of Lands on the Whistler Resort Assn.?

Did you know that his 'underling' was seconded to carry on their aganda, to the Board of Vanoc re: the Callaghan Valley Nordic Venue.

Do the taxpayers understand the involvement of the Land bureaucrats on Vanoc?

Follow the linkages. Conflict of interest? Fraud anyone?

P.S. Skookum1

Thanks - re: your website. Here's a spooky event:

Before I read your posts tonight - (I really should be in bed) - I received a 'Google Alert' which led me to your site - how is that for synchronicity.

You ARE a deep thinker - talk soon.

How screwed up is

How screwed up is this?
Parliamentary immunity protects top Mountie from perjury, court hears. "Get Out of Prison Free"
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=0d5b064b-b195-4017-b48f-4526130cdf20
But don't be a voice for OUR PLANET!
http://sisis.nativeweb.org/sov/allnahan.html
Betty Krawczyk
http://bettysearlyedition.blogspot.com/2007/02/bettys-final-submissions-to-madam.html
10 months in jail?
A cop who was caught for Luring two young girls for the purpose supposedly of taking pics gets ONE DAY IN JAIL
Where are all the good RCMP and Police?

Speaking of rot cont. . . .

Did you know that this key Land bureaucrat& Pointman for Vanoc (as V.P of LWBC allowing Vanoc to use the Callaghan Valley for their white elephant taxpayer funded Nordic Centre)also
instructed the Attorney General's lawyers during Supreme Court litigation against the B.C. Govt. & VanderZalm, launched by Powder Mountain Resorts Ltd. in 1999? - The Govt. & VanderZalm's legal fes were paid for by the taxpayers.

Lawyers for Nan Hartwick's unearthed, key documents by court order that were missing in this Land bureaucrat's file; shocking evidence of his/his circle of other staff's unethical/corrupt conduct in emails, Cabinet Briefing notes & a key investigation by the Ombudsman's Office.

The Courts sanitized all of this key chapter of evidence by using an early cut-off date of documents thus, continuing the cover-up.

Shades of the Raid on the Leg file? There ARE more linkages.

Powder Mountain/Callaghan Valley file: factual links . . .

BC Dude

Good question, BC Dude . . .

Would it come as a surprise to learn that RCMP Inspector Kevin DeBruyckere was assigned to the Powder Mountain file re: an investigation that had been opened twice since 2000, when further evidence was submitted to the RCMP in 2006?

We have all just learned that Insp. DeBruycere is front & centre in the Raid on the Leg scandal. The team leader for the RCMP Commercial Crime was in fact the brother in law of Kelly Reichart, the BC Liberal Executive Director.

The RCMP were also in conflict of interest on the Powder Mountain/Callaghan Valley file allegations: they had been working closely with Vanoc & the bureaucrats on the Callaghan Valley ordering a 21 million dollar road supposedly for security reasons while 'handling' this file.

Is it a coincidence to learn that Ken Dobell, then Deputy Minister in charge of the civil service for the Premier & a Director on Vanoc, was assigned the Powder Mountain 'file' by the Premier while the RCMP were 'investigating' allegations which included key land bureaucrats?

There is stench in this House of Cards Cover-up.

Wow......I knew it stank, but not quite that bad

Yikes; I'm hoping that the Tyee's editors/writers are paying attention to your posts and are working on doing a proper news article on this; sounds to me like you've got some press releases "ready to go". But I guess The Tyee would rather cover how to dress and eat and what to wear, more often than not, than do investigative digging on "dead" scandals. Except this one's not dead, considering who the players are...and what some of them are connected to NOW.

Your complaint about the Premier's/governments lawyers being paid from the public kitty and the reminder that friendly consultants can get nice fat contracts for biased reports does stick in my craw; because such consultancies with their professional veneer always get more media/political time, partly because of the slick packaging and also the research time that a paid staffer can put in; what I'm getting at is that EcoSign and similar companies get to feed off the public teat in order to tell it what kind of training bra to wear, while the kids who depend on the teat can't get anywhere near it, or "Mom's" ear either. The ram-rodding of the Hwy 99 paving job via Duffey Lake is another case of paid-consultancy and political clout overriding local needs and desires, but that again is a longer story.....

I'm Irish, too, at least in part anyway though at times 80% in spirit (more about music/poetry temperament - oh, and temper and tongue - than drinking, though, thankfully) - my great-grandmother was "an Irish scullery maid who met my French nobleman great-grandfather on the boat to Canada", so the family lore goes; name of Maher, supposedly, and story is she was from County Cork.....Great-granddad was an Orleanist on the run from one of the post-Napoleonic revolutions; somebody got hung in a doorway, but I've never been sure if that was in a revolution, or if it was the highwayman on the English side (Motts and Hodgkins....).

But, on top of that bit of Irish and the glowering clouds of my half-Norwegian-ness, I'm also a Scorpio......

How can G Campbell still be

How can G Campbell still be Premier of BC?
As he and his whole Government is under criminal investigation including the BC Justice system, RCMP, Campbell along with RCMP, CanWest media brought down a great, for the people NDP G Clark Government (over a porch) sad and shameful!
G Campbell along with the help of OUR National Police Force RCMPimps for the BC Liberals.

Hansard, notice a few liberal and main players names are also involved in today the crimes?
http://www.leg.bc.ca/hansard/hansindx/36th1st/n.htm
http://www.leg.bc.ca/hansard/36th1st/ha0627p1.htm#58
WHAT A FAGAN HIPPOCRIT!
G. Campbell: The critical issue is not who was elected; the critical question is how we provide patients in British Columbia with services. You don't do that by building more bureaucracies.

We know that over the next few months we are all going to be faced with dealing with the Canadian constitution again, and we know the Premier is very interested in that. That's worthwhile. We should also recognize that Prime Ministers and Premiers have consistently and persistently failed in their efforts to deal with that issue. It seems to me that all members of this House share an interest in trying to break that impasse, in trying to strengthen our country, in trying to strengthen the opportunities and the public institutions that we have in this country.
Msn TV news nothing about BC Rail scandal?

Um......

Yes, in making sure there are no changes which threaten his position or the powers of the Premier's Office he intends to hang onto. Any constitutional deals that would give the more public to police recalcitrant/miscreant politicians I imagine he's especially interested in preventing.

See above

I'm sorry, unless you're trying to be ironic that just sounds pollyanna-ish....politicians are only interested in strengthening themselves (and their backers), not public democracy.

It's a beautiful day great

It's a beautiful day great for US who are totally fed up with this Dictatorial criminal tyrant and his circus of "Clowns" to get out on the streets in OUR BC!
I went to Kinkos and had Gordo's mug shot enlarged and "Traitor" printed diagonally accross it.
I'll put that on my back pack and go out and enjoy the day around W Broadway and Granville St, it's a start!
"DO NOT KEEP SILENT when your own ideas and values are being attacked. ...If a dictatorship ever comes to this country, it will be by the default of those who keep silent. We are still free enough to speak. Do we have time? No one can tell." -- Ayn Rand, Philosophy
"GO CANUCKS GO"

speaking of which...

I'm not at all sure that the scheduling of the trial to coincide with the playoffs is all that accidental.....

Skookum1 Could be "Dirty

Skookum1 Could be "Dirty Deeds and There Done Dirt Cheap"
Does anyone know if this law would apply in this BC Rail scandal or a similar law?
I'm not an Attorney, but hey you never know!
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2007/04/27/WarCrime
(b) Personal jurisdiction
As Article 12(b) of the Rome Statute indicates, the Court has personal jurisdiction over the national of any State which has ratified the Statute. This jurisdiction exists regardless of the location of the alleged violation.
Canada ratified the Rome Statute on July 7, 2000. And the individuals who took the decisions at issue here are Canadian citizens. As a result, personal jurisdiction exists in this instance.
(c) The absence of immunity
As Article 27 of the Rome Statute indicates, elected representatives and government officials do not benefit from immunity from investigation and prosecution by the International Criminal Court -- regardless of any immunities or special procedural rules which might otherwise attach to their official capacity under national or international law.

Correction under "Speaking of rot . . .

O.K. . . . it was late when I wrote that post about the "key senior land bureaucrat" - I meant to say he sat with the fired Deputy Min. of Lands on the Whistler Land Corp.(WLC)pouring taxpayers money & free land into Whistler.

This circle is such a cesspool, it is hard to keep the scummy links straight!!!!

Irish in the blood . . .

Skookum1, I am glad to hear that your Irish traits fall on the good side of the ledger LOL. Just don't let your temper mimic Alec Baldwin's!!

Your family tree is intriguing all of which has helped create who you are today: someone with a deep sense of justice - that is a "good thing" to possess these days. BTW, You are a talented musician. Have you written any songs surrounding your great gandparents?

That strength of character is the necessary ingredient to demand there is a cleanup of dirty deals like BC Rail & Powder Mountain/Callaghan Valley scandal. This type of conduct is not worthy of most British Columbians. The rot has to be cleaned out.

Corruption stemming from a few individuals that belong to a a private club doing things against the interests of society to push their own interests is not acceptable. Nor is complacency as an antidote.People need to speak up & get engaged to combat this sickness.'

How can society expect children to grow up with healthy minds & attitudes, when people in trusted positios such as government, RCMP and Judges turn their backs on ethics in the name of expediency or to protect one of their own? Is it any wonder why our younger generation are confused - looking for answers in all the wrong places.

When many people commit themselves to decency, and channel their energies in a good direction, it ignites an unstoppable energy. The universe can then step in to the mix and amazing progress can be made, in unexpected ways.

There needs to be a whole house cleanup lifting up those rugs to see what has been swept under. It feels like this is underway. Only so many fingers can be poked in a leaing dam of deceit before it crashes.

Keep fueling that passionate yearning for ethics, Skookum1. You are headed in the right direction. Keep inspiring others to join your journey.

well, actually

No - I only get like that with adults, not kids. Not suffering fools gladly etc; but only when my back's against the wall ;-) All words, no fists though - didn't get that particular Irish trait, although pretty well suppressed by upbringing; Dad - the Norwegian side - was a pro boxer, as was granddad (he knew John L. Sullivan) but we weren't allowe to right; not even in self-defence (I think Dad hurt someone in the ring and swore off it....). Not an easy way to be in a roughneck town but in the long run it was a good thing; it just forced me to learn to have a sharp tongue. A very sharp tongue, as you've probably noticed around here....

correction

double typo, better fix it: ") but we weren't allowe to right" = "we weren't allowed to fight".

still curious, secondlook....

Yeah, that's the untold story of Whistler, isn't it? The available-land control, kept tight to keep the market high, but ultimately all built on Crown Land; and ironically, as said before, a very anti-NDP town despite being created and nurtured by NDP legislation; I've always said it's a centrally-planned economy run by an oligarchic clique....the land control thing is particularly noxious, and surfaced again lately when somebody tried to get - got? - a land alienation for a low-cost community between Whistler and Pemberton, somewhere around Soo River or Rutherford Creek. The idea being that most people who work in Whistler can't afford to live or buy there; and the one area that was set aside for local buyers, down in Whistler Cay Estates, was somehow artificially kept low to make that possible; "vaguely" like price-fixing. Anyway, I heard Whistler was fighting tooth and nail against this new mini-town, something like which I'd thought of long ago........another untold story is the dozens - hundreds? - of squats that were burned out once the megahouses moved in; "we can't have people living for free when somebody just down the creek paid a fortune for the patch of rock and swamp we sold them"...just goes to show you what real estate promotion can do - the jacking/marketing of luxury-market places in the rockiest, rainiest, swampiest valley in the whole SLRD (deliberately situated at the maximum isohyet - isohyets are sort of like contour lines but for rates of rainfall); even by the time I "got out of Dodge" in '88 the valley was worth $5 billion....not sure what it is now....

Similarly this is another reason why the RMOW annexed everything down to McGuire's (where the Callaghan cutoff is, as you probably know); to keep the lands in that area from being outside their planning stranglehold, which isn't about maintaining "design standards" but about maintaining market prices....they're at build-out as I understand it, or supposedly are; we'll see if the new owners of the mountains get what they'll need to make a go (ski resorts are not profitable by lift tickets, but by realty and accommodations in general...); "what they need" is compliance from the provincial government to allow an expansion of the build-out.....

I've a dozen stories on small businesses, including my own personal fiasco up there (tell ya in an email....), who got screwed around by "Whistler, Inc." through their control of RMOW/WRA committees and general clout/influence.....Whistler is not free enterprise, let's put it that way.....it's a controlled market, not a free one....

cont.

Anyway, I'm curious about the further details about what went on with Powder Mountain now, as I'm sure a lot of people here are. I realize you guys may not be ready to go public with all this, but if you'd care to share the details by email I promise not to shop them around to the media etc....I just wanna know.

BTW were there any vulcanology assessments on Mts Callaghan, Cayley etc in terms of hazard risk? Meager is the most recently active one, but there's a few "hot pipes" around there.....

And isn't it odd how there's been almost no discussion at ALL of "the Barrier" in terms of all the safety/security concerns re Highway 99?

related stuff....

Just to advise I've just posted something on the Media Scam thread which has somewhat to do with the general issues here.

About the base of the Callaghan Rd. being cut off:

Skookum1

I checked with Powder Mountain Resorts Ltd. & yes, the extension of Whistler's boundaries along the Highway to cut off the Callaghan Road access, WAS specifically done, as a desperate way for an inferior ski resort, to try to control the new ski development with year round skiing on ten square miles of interconnected glacier..

Whos was responsible?

secondlook

. . . none other than the same Deputy Minister of Lands that was fired over the fraudulent study.

The company was assured that a simple Order in Council (stroke of the pen) would remedy the ridiculous move.

Desperate people do desperate things & Whister/Blackcomb were desperate knowing that the Powder Mountain Resort was coming on stream - they wouldn't be able to skim profits from inflated prices for starters. The company recently obtained confidential documents from that time period, where Whistler was pressuring the government about not letting Powder Mtn. proceed - after they had asked Nan Hartwick for help. The company prevailed & succeeded in winning (for the third time) the final proposal call. Then VanderZalm hit . . . .

You are right; the last thing Whistler/Blackcomb can be labelled is a free enterprise town - millions of taxpayers dollars/crown land used to prop up a circle of vested interests - & yes, a very exclusive club. Sorry to hear about your thwarted venture by the circle. You were not meant to do it in Whistler but somewhere else . . .

Fascinating about your Dad & Grandfather - I can think of a few 'worms' I would like to see put in front of their boxing skills.

Here's the scoop, Skookum . . . .

No doubt - much more to come. The information I was told, is that what IS going on is fascinating.

The parallel & common denominators to the Powder Mountain case & the Raid on the Leg are uncanny.

Both scandals focus on political manipulation & interference of the system at the highest levels of government, for private, vested interests outside of due process VS the best interests of British Columbians.

Both have common links to the the BC Lib agenda.

Both have highly suspect current issues surrounding files with the RCMP, & Ken Dobell based in political linkages.

Both have been massive COVER-UPS by the same circle pulling the strings.

Maybe just one more bombshell:

Reliable sources say that there is a confidential document from the most powerful Cabinet Committee in Government: Planning Board passing the Powder Mountain Project as the #1 Economic Development Project with "all agencies of government to cooperate". The NDP were recognizing the "pre-existing rights" of the Hartwicks' company.

So, the million dollar question is: [b]Under which Government? Surprise: The NDP

Hmmmmmm contrary to what the public was fed, the NDP were cleaning up corruption from the VanderZalm era & were taking steps to stimulate the economy through private enterprise.

No taxpayer dollars were part of the Hartwick's company's winning proposal; real jobs; real investment opportunities & a much expanded tax base & a bigger magnet for tourism What happened?

I understand it was something about the 'back field in motion' of key Land bureaucrats recently obtained emails from Land files . . .

Who ARE those key bureaucrats anyway . . . ?

Well, like I said at the time, it was their loss....

I won't say what it was here, but I suppose if moles from the WRA want to axe-grind it's easy enough to find my website like you did ;-) Let's just say it was unique, popular with tourists, supported by both mountains, would have provided respectable-paying work and good adventure for young and old, was supported by village security and more - but council committees met behind my back without telling me and railroaded me when the license came up for passage; details would be too telling as to what the railroading was but the backroom daggers were brought out by one of the monopoly/chain retailers there who figured my service was going to hurt an unrelated part of his own business.....again, too many details for here....after I was virtually shut down because of the restrictive license that was laid on me he tried to start an unlicensed version, claiming it was a different thing....

I had a nervous breakdown, lost everything...well, not quite everything. I gained a new appreciation for the crassness and coldheartedness of some of the money crowd who behave like they're better than everone else, but get there by shitting on people and blindsiding them without them deserving it, or even realize it's being done....

Enough griping; my other friends have similar stories.

Tourists from Aspen and Squaw and Taos told me that that wouldn't be possible in the US; you have a God-given right to make money there, and regulations designed to keep start-up businesses from being profitable wouldn't be tolerated, and the perpetrators would be ridiculed; I'd have been likely to earn support from competitors of such perpetrators in places like that, probably securing my position rather than ruining it....

But in Whistler, there are no competitors....

But in Whistler, there are no competitors....

...because none are allowed.....

as for your Powder Mountain story...

...fascinating, especially the bits about some of the same players being involved in the current imbroglio. How is it that such people get into high office in the first place? Oh yeah - I remember, largely by appointment.......by those in high office....all of whom who apparently shouldn't be trusted with any of the positions they've held....

My Quote "A people without a

My Quote
"A people without a responsable independent media are doomed"!
Is there anyway that the Great People of BC can bring a major class action suite against CanWest for being a co-conspierator and complacent partner in the cover-up and treasonous acts in/of the dismantaling of OUR Provincial Publicly owned Corporations?
http://www.bcliberals.com/EN/1244/
Also a suite against the dishounorable g campbell, k faulkin, c taylor, w oppal, g a-b-b-ott (a Costello thing lol)
All weekend nary a word of BC Rail Scandal?
Some useless full front page drivel about nothing! I hear the pounding of "fascist jack boots" in the air!
media = a dumbed down people
schoos= dumbed down education for the working people etc.
Gas = $122.+ a leater
Food = 100% increase in 10 years
Housing = from $75 grand to a starter home at $470+ thousand?
The working stiff can't even dream of owning a detached home anymore?

I just want to say, Skookum1 . . .

Hang in there, Skookum . . . I am truly sorry that you had to go through such rot at Whistler/Blackcomb. You have come through the hell & are wiser for it.

Clarification: Your website came to me via a Google Alert - i.e. through common words that I had programmed Google to send for my research - beforeyou posted your actual website - that was the magic in the moment LOL!!!

Unfortunately this attitude has developed, not from the many good people living in that resort town but from the little selfish circle that have the attitude that no person outside of their club are allowed to have profitable ventures.

Life IS a battleground for everyone in one way or another - the bigger meaning seems to be what we all do with our experiences. Those 'roadblocks' are put in our path for a reason.

I admire your strong spirit, Skookum1. The answers always lie in persistence despite the details.

BC Dude, your feelings are shared by many . .

For starters, bring back Allan Fotheringham - PDQ!

Canwest is losing credibility because of their choice to control the media output instead of reporting & using a little elbow grease. It is not their journalists' fault. It is so obvious to so many.

There will b Karma. I would revel in seeing a mass cooperative effort to give voice to the majority of decent British Columbians. There is always a way when things reach a critical mass -

There are so many good thinking people on this site, BC Mary's, House of Infamy etc. Communication of thoughts/facts is powerful - that is where the Internet has become a valuable tool, [b]since the media can no longer be trusted to give the public the truth.

Advertising dollars should not control what gets printed or spoken across media outlets - there is too many interconnections now of vested interests.

The juggernaut of discontent with unethical conduct/corruption across all political persuasions is gaining momentum. It just needs to be focused.

The Frontpage of the Van

The Frontpage of the Van GagProvince rag as I read in their box.
Corporations http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=6f76cd09-6596-4d1b-97fb-f108e7ddeaaf&k=86093

Sambo selling to Corps = for profit, "WE PAID BIG BUCKS FOR THESE BC LAND MARKS AND THEY ARE OURS!" What's next OUR MICA DAM? I worked on that dam and made good bucks working 7/12hr shifts that's how I bought my house and kept a family of four in the middle class!
Now middle class are a dying BREED, as the rich and super rich are fighting each other, GREED
"There is no profit in Peace"

http://www.ratical.org/corporations/
http://reclaimdemocracy.org/about_us.html
http://www.realpeoplesmusic.com/performers/si/fox.htm
http://www.presscampaign.org/statement.htm

Man!

http://news.google.ca/news/url?sa=t&ct=ca/0-1&fp=4636833863ef0ef3&ei=YX82RuuDDZLSqQP82KzqBQ&url=http%3A//www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html%3Fid%3D0fc4cd22-bd11-4e4d-b037-46df6082cfe7%26k%3D93352&cid=1115896335

I don't doubt for a second Dobell is about as conflicted here as it is possible to be.

Still, it would be great fun to see him sue the feckless NDP.

Nothing new on Basi-Virk?

Nothing new on Basi-Virk?

Oh there's a lot that's new.

What is he going to sue for? Truth is a defence against libel.

Really?

No one seem to be posting on Basi-Virk.

Since when has the fact a libel is true prevented a law-sit in politics?

Dobell what greedy

Dobell what greedy sonofabeach
gordo well his ugly face is on bullnews about a hydrogen bus fleet.
He's a chicken shiet coward hiding behind his bought and paid for so called BC justice system using gordo's new law "Criminal Contempt of Court"
The quest for justice in BC is not cheap. Not when a citizen is up against large corporations and government bodies such as Kietwit and Sons and Gordon Campbell, through the Minister of Transportation of BC, who are locked into an Olympic studded public, private partnership venture that really means the public pays for the private profit of developers.

http://sisis.nativeweb.org/sov/allnahan.html
http://harrietspirit.blogspot.com/
http://bettysearlyedition.blogspot.com/2007/02/bettys-final-submissions-to-madam.html

gordon will eventualy have

gordon will eventualy have to answer for his total manipulation of the BC courts and justice system that has stood for more than a 100 years against tyrants like G Campbell.

http://bettysearlyedition.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-kind-of-criminal-mind-trumps.html

Boy this is a bunch of crap lol
http://www.gov.bc.ca/ajo/

BC Dude

you give all the appearance and use all the language of a very sick puppy.

Basi and Virk

The prosecution tried for and then withdrew an application for a publication ban on Friday.

SO far as I know this hasn't been reported anywhere. But it has been confirmed.

It is a clear indication of something new - either problems within the prosecution - (Berardino wasn't in court all last week) - or perhaps something else. There were reports in court today of threats made as well.

Details here:
http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/

No way!

I am completely against publication bans in court matters and especially in those involving government. I hope this judge has sufficient sense and no political leanings which will persuade her to grants such an application.

RRC

I don't think you need worry about the judge. The application was not accepted - but, the fact it was even presented, after the judge's statements in late February, was both interesting and worrisome. In my view, there are serious questions that are not being answered relative to the way the Crown has handled the case.

Here's a short story from the Times Colonist that has a couple of interesting elements in it:
http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=f10ae667-71fc-4f35-b7a4-dc05138365e5

And of course, the fact that the application for a publication ban didn't even merit a word in the MSM is very troubling. Without a vigilant and active press we're going to be in trouble more and more often in this province.

TheRealRealitycheck was this

TheRealRealitycheck was this directed at me?

And if it was please explain, if not who TYIA!

Yup

That was aimed at you BCDude and if you don't know why, my explaining it will not assist you.

I know many are enjoying the prospect of the extreme discomfiture of the Gliberals ober the Basi-Virk/dobell matters.

A little history lesson though might be instructive;
http://www.rafeonline.com/showthread.php?p=82769#post82769

Times Colonist Eric

Times Colonist Eric Beauchesne, CanWest News Service
Published: Tuesday, May 01, 2007
http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/local/story.html?id=2d414ab2-96dc-46f7-ad88-42f528d6dbd1&k=55143
So who are they "To Serve and Protect" me thinks the dirty fascist, totalitarian politicos in BC and OUR CANADA?
We gotta do something right away for RIP http://harrietspirit.blogspot.com/ and Betty in jail for 10 months, this should be enough BS by OUR in-Justices.

Look at the BCTF and

Look at the BCTF and Teachers that's just doing the Corporations (TILMA) job of divide and conquer! Can't these two parties be brothers and sisters and see what is going on?
They have gone through so much in past years! Why don't they do a "follow money trail" as dirty money leaves a stench where ever and what ever it touches! I smell "sulfur here" gordon campbell's TILMA
http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2007/04/10/01481.html
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/business/060220/b022062.html Despicable greedy corporations where they setup as a target nothing survives ex: Wal-Mart moves in to a nice community and 12-18 months later all the mom and pop business dry up as big box stores are malign cancerous as they kill!
All the little groups across BC and the bigger groups Unions, WWF,
ANTI POVERTY etal without the "paid thugs" to cause the non thinking public to believe the CanWest msm where is the BC Rail news?
Campbell paid for thugs to phone in to radio talk programs, and hecklers and just how many more dirty tricks?

TRMan NO GUTS BUT BIG MOUTH!

TRMan NO GUTS BUT BIG MOUTH!

A letter I sent out to all

A letter I sent out to all my friends, as BC Mary mentioned that only 11 people showed up on Wed an extreamly bad show of support for Democracy and I'm guilty of not being there to be a witness for the future!
BC Rail, Legislature Raid scandal update by BC Mary and Bill Tieleman and the house.
http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/ http://houseofinfamy.blogspot.com/ http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/
I plan on going to this very important Supreme Court of BC on Friday 10am May 04/07 and stand up for Democracy, Freedom of Speech and above all Real Justice of and for the people of British Columbia!
I'd like you to pass the word around to as many people as WE can to show up at, I hope at 800 Hornby Street, Vancouver, BC. Note the absence of BCRail scandal on CanWest BCTV, CTV etc. In the Van Province Wednesday "snip" on page a17 that's the media working for US? huh
http://www.canada.com/globaltv/bc/story.html?id=11017305-d6ce-4f9e-ae25-8c8dc4507d15&k=82904
"The liberties of none are safe unless the liberties of all are protected." : William O. Douglas

www.winnipegfreepress.com/wes

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/westview/story/3758460p-4345834c.html#top
So long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so; for tyrants are active and ardent, and will devote themselves in the name of any number of gods, religious and otherwise, to put shackles upon sleeping men: Voltaire. François Marie Arouet (1694-1778)

What and where did gordon do

What and where did gordon do with OUR Legislature Library? Remember he wanted this great public space for his new office or to make it safe against earthquacks or something, with his phycotic mind of Grandure?
http://www.straight.com/article/raids-prompt-revelations-of-martin-campbell-connections?#
http://thetyee.ca/electioncentral/2005/05/16/canwest-gave-campbell-48400/
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:rI3mjvJrCzIJ:canadiandimension.com/articles/2004/07/01/132/+jack+hall,+whistler+land+corporation&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11
And the dance goes on, and on,

Resumption

of the trial today and the prosecution finally gets to have a say. It will be interesting to see what the other side of the story sounds like.

Gosh!

The silence is deafening. Not as much fun when stuff countering the cherished beliefs is presented huh?