Quote:We cannot hault oil

Do you have the capacity to look more than five years down the road?

Position

We need to position ourselves as an energy powerhouse! That is what we are. Though, we need to go beyond oil and gas, into hydro, wind and other alternative sources!

We have a competitive advantage in commodities, no longer in manufacturing! We must become more global.

The Tories are right to stop the handouts to oil sands produders. There is exporation there. We need to continue to provide incentives to those, who commit time and resources to find and develop new assets.

The North American Union coming to a freeway near you.

Anyone who reads about the planned NAFTA SuperHighway from southern Mexico up through the U.S.A. and British Columbia to Alaska ... 10 lanes fast-tracked for trains as well as heavy transport trucks and including oil and natural gas pipelines ... just has to ask how green these green-speaking, double-talking guys really are.

See the maps: http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/

... and see how B.C. Rail was/is an irresistible piece of that plan.

Collapse

Jared Diamond's book "Collapse: How societies choose to succeed or fail" pretty much sums it all up. Time is the asset we don't have. Slashing funds for research projects is not the answers we need. Neither is the la-la speech about the great new alternative technologies awaiting us just around the corner.
Let's just keep shuffling papers around, use delay tactics, especially lies and watch the real collapse happen. Let's just keep a stupid Harper grin on our faces too.

Quit the domestic quasi -"Debeers" approach to Oil

Let's "separate"..or at least separate the buckwheat from the BS.

Check out the Hibernia project:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hibernia_(oil_field)

We will still be using oil/gas etc...for decades....it will take years to integrate other options/ solution even if they are viable.

As usual cheap domestic politics. Why should all our $$$ flow even East of the Rockies to Alberta ? The natural resource royalty revenue $$$$$ for BC could be billions..as " my understanding" is that the Provinces can also tack on royalties to production that are immune from external influence. As an export product, that becomes a HUGE net fiscal benefit for BC citizens.

How could anyone be against it(....except the usual suspects...fasten your TYEE seatbelts)

Error re :Link to Hibernia

Sorry, the Link won't co-operate.

Probably Al "Oscar" Gore is trying to screw it up.

Try a search for "Hibernia oil field Wikipedia"

Off shore oil and gas

Eventually our off shore oil and gas will be exploited and if these bunch of bandits are still in power then it's a given that resource will be literally handed on a silver platter to the big players. We don't have to look far to see an example, Newfoundland. 2 years ago there was a documentary series on the television called "Oil, The world over a barrel" where it shows how the oil industry promotes government corruption in developing countries. Only 1 country that comes to mind on how to develope their oil industry is Norway. The Norwegian Government formed a company called Stats Oil which was in charge of the whole oil and gas industry and develope it for the benefit of Norway. One way that Norway has benefited is that they are one of the few countries which doesn't have a debt. Another benefit is that all the technology that was developed to extract oil from the sea floor is owned by Norway. Any oil company that uses that Norwegian technology has to pay royalities to Norway. Norway is not only rich but they're smart too. If B.C's business and political elite are so smart, how come they act so dumb?.

Site C

The author's comments about site C are idiotic.

BCH has been pushing conservation for years with some success, but we need more electricity generation to meet a growing demand. The problem is we have an electrical infrastructure that was built to service a much smaller population.

Site C is the most sensible way to generate a large amount of power. Tidal, wind, run-of-the -river all nice ideas, but don't produce a continuous supply power. Yes, there will be an environmental impact to build site c.

There is an environmental impact of all form of energy - yes even wind. I can see the protests now of people who don't want the wind turbines in their backyard.

Will site C solve all of our power shortages? Of course not. I am not against conversation, but it will not be enough.

I guess we could buy more power from other jurisdictions that use natural gas and coal.

The bottom line is we need to build more generation and soon. If someone can come up with a better way to provide BC with the reliable power it needs, I'd like to hear it.

No, I don't have any kind of vested interest in building site C. I just want people to be realistic.

Sorry for the grumpy rant.

Options: Site C vs Nuclear power

As two (of many ) forces clash:

On the news yesterday they mentioned that the Go Green/Climate Change /Enviro lobby in Europe has got many EU countries now going in the direction.....or should I say buying into, ....drum roll.....Nuclear Energy/Nuclear power plants.

We discussed this as an option a while back on THE TYEE, but someone came on line who was quite familiar with this issue and discussed that this Nuclear Power industry is very specialized and has huge start -up costs etc. .
Apparently, in Canada, much of the private sector infrastructure needed to faciltiate this Nuclear option has gone the way of the Avro Arrow...folded and dispersed.

Nuclear power seems to be a more banal option " less polluting " in a relative sense..or simply sheer Public "perception"........but their are many devils in the details...many of them alluding to that it is a hugely subsidized industry.

Maestro

Sometimes I can't understand what you are trying to say. Today, you are making an aweful lot of sense...

Great posts!

Site C

What I remember about the project the first time it came up in the mid 70s, was that it was deemed too dangerous to build because it enclosed a very unstable place called the Downey Slide. It was posited that the Slide could take out the Site C earthen dam which would then take out every other dam along the Columbia and ultimately flood and release the nuclear waste carelessly stored in barrels at the Hanford Nuclear Facility in Washington State.

Anybody else remember that?

Don't stand in their way

If anyone tries to stand in the way of the Liberals, they'll just create legislation to override their authority. See this article on pending legislation regarding resort development:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/03/19/bc-resort.html

Democracy in this province is truly dead.

I see Cappy and his ilk are using their usual modus operandi. They'll get in the first words, then when everyone has torn their arguments to shreds they'll not be heard from, or respond to any posts.

Cappy, you never did respond to my questions in the TILMA posts.

Double or triple speak?

It seems to be double speak, as the headline suggests, if the outcome of the gov't plan was merely to advance the burning of fossil fuel.

There is another layer of interpretation -- and, yes, I am being optimistic -- that was not discussed, however.

First, there are other uses for fossil fuel than burning it. In particular, plastics. As a society, we could get by without gasoline, but not without plastic.

Second, there's probably some benefit in getting fossil fuels from BC rather than, say, Saudi Arabia. As far as I know, BC does not fund as much terrorism as SA.

Nobody tops the US!

Funding for terrorists, it would be hard to spend more than the US does on terror, er, foriegn policy, I mean....

So?

So?

No to oil development in the Georgia Straight!

I don't want oil to wash up on my West Vancouver beach.

Looks like I am in cahoots with the radical environmentalists. Oops, have to hide my Hummer!

So, stop feeding the terrorist lie...

I think we should curb the rhetoric about muslim/arab terrorists. It's just a diversion from the real bad guys, the CIA & DEA.

Trolling for Dollars!

A new game show starring Ron Erwin, I mean flattax... Contestants use the most insane statements in order to attract attention. Everytime someone responds the troll wins valuable prizes!! You'll laugh, you'll cry you'll hurl yourself off the cliff in this uproariously funny new version of an old comedy show! Special guest host this week, maestro!!

A joke

I just wanted to lighten up the place a bit. Too serious about global warming here. The science is not even settled yet. Why does Mars have global warming, with a melting polar ice cap. the same reason as earth - Solar Activity.

Really though, I wouldn't mind a degree or two, this winter seemed really long to me.

The other way

Serious conservation efforts (cutting consumption by 20% - 50%) so that our current power generation systems don't need expansion, coupled with benign generation schemes such as tidal, wind, solar, and geo-thermal. These initiatives would be brought on in an incremental fashion to facilitate an easy transition.

That was easy. What do I win? I hope it's not a house in the suburbs!

WAC

WAC Bennett atleast had a vision. Because of him, we can take advantage of the lowest electricity prices in North America. Thanks to Campbell all that is about to change. Since, BC Hydro is now prohibited from producing any new power from any new source, the private corporations have already come in to take your money by using public resources (ie. water rights). Anyways, in 5 or so years when BC Hydro doesn't have to eat the costs of buying from the private sector at 10 times the cost they give it to you and me, get ready for some huge increases in your bill.

Site C Flooding Hanford?

>What I remember about the project the first time it came up in the mid 70s, was that it was deemed too dangerous to build because it enclosed a very unstable place called the Downey Slide. It was posited that the Slide could take out the Site C earthen dam which would then take out every other dam along the Columbia and ultimately flood and release the nuclear waste

That would be quite an amazing feat, considering the Site C is on the Peace, and Hanford is on the Columbia.

In fact, after a bit of googling, it turns out you're thinking of the *Revelstoke* dam, which was eventually completed in the 80s. I thought Revelstoke was a concrete dam, but I could be wrong

Re The Other Way

Stump,

What you say is true. We do need to conserve. However, I keep hearing how we should driving electric cars. The RAV line; regardless of your opinion of it, will use electricity. and I keep hearing conservation. I also keep hearing how we must stop burning fossil fuel and change to electricity. I sounds like to consumption of electricity is going to increase.

BTW

I have a small townhouse in the near burbs that is close to work.

Ask not...

Why should we build more capacity, if we can't sustain what we already have. Stumps' conservation point should be a no brainer, but for some reason it's not. It's the progress = growth = ecomonic opportunity myth. Perpetual growth will sustain our infrastructure, just build more... more roads, more houses, more pipelines, more power stations, more, more more. Once you relaize that Ed Deak is correct and and the physical laws apply, not some cooked book accounting fraud, then you see the light. If we are to find sustainability long enough to figure out how we can survive a while longer, we will need to dump the old thinking in the present economic box and try examining the alternatives.
The lesson will be repeated until learned...

Revelstoke Dam is a concrete

Revelstoke Dam is a concrete dam.
The Mica Dam is an earthen dam, as I was a carpenter who built the 3,500 man camp before the concrete dam was built.
Gordo and Ralphy should both be brought up on treason charges as they have brought in a secret anti-democratic law "TILMA".
These two despot miscreants and their cabal and with knowledge and the backing of Steven Harpers anti-Canadian pro big Biz NWO Government.
My question: Is there anyway "WE THE PEOPLE" to be able to take this band of criminals out of office and charge them with BC Rail scandal for starters along with CanWest as an accessory for cover-up to this treasonous TILMA and the BC Rail scandal
How can WE the majority of public know anything of what's being perpetrated upon us by these greedy few as we are 4 million strong in BC and Alberta with 3 1/4 million people = Total BC and Alberta = 7,250,000 people against maybe less than 100 traitors

Sustainable Growth an Oxymoron

Is perpetual growth sustainable?

I don't think so!

To me 'sustainable' means a steady state (with minor fluctuations) rather than a constantly expanding state!

But no one wants to envision that; much easier to envision increasing consumption, whether that is electricity or toasters!

That is wht recycling will not make a hill of beans difference!

That is why reducing an individuals energy consumption will not make a difference if we make more individuals.

If a spaceship has limited resources, would they take on more passengers?

Same question for spaceship Earth!

If the economic goal is to expand the market (using ads to make you think you need something when really it is a luxury or want), then why the concern about healthcare costs, when really they are just a sign of a healhy economy?

Boy are we fools for depending on fossils!

This is what gordo, Ralphy

This is what gordo, Ralphy and Harper are all about the NWO, scary shite.
http://www.freedomtofascism.com./

The choir...

We can break down these complex problems to our mindset. Like Stump and Freebear and the rest of the choir here on Tyee, there is a recognition of a kinder, gentler way. The arguement applies to all sectors. Transportation: We don't have a congestion problem at the port mann bridge, we have a single occupant vehicle problem. Communication: business is now run on the "just in time" priciple. We won't carry the inventory cause you will ship it to us when we order it. Customers don't understand delays anymore. Take for example Nortel, if it weren't for the thousands of patches maybe they could keep up on the orders, but who created that need/want for instant gratification and all the bells and whistles on your phone? What is it a phone, a pager, text chatter, camera or a stereo?? More Power!!!: Turn your heat and lights down, make a freaking light bulb! Make a Ford or a Chevy that still lasts ten years.... (Thanks Merle...) 25 more like it...

The only agrument should be how to transition, this is where the mind tends to wander. We have to agree that now is the time, and that will be the steepest hill to climb, especially when your friends, family and neighbours just don't get it.

Single Occupant Vehicle Problem

Well said.

I would suggest that the problem be dealt with as cigarette consumption has been addressed -- a combination of education about effects, sin taxes, and treatment. Since there is no "patch" for the car, this is the time for govt and industry (how about the dreaded PPP?) to step up and provide ways to "wean" from the habit of driving yourself from the boonies to downtown Van.

- extend the Skytrain, it seems to have very high user acceptance

- and/or develop Ottawa-style rapid bus service with dedicated lanes

- encourage density along the Skytrain

- develop more, safer, and cooler parks and play spaces so that families feel that apartment living close to the city (i.e within biking/electic biking/scootering range) is a genuinely attractive alternative to the single-family dwelling out in boonieland.

-

Yammer

Charles Simon has done some interesting design studies that show it's entirely possible to achieve high-rise density occupancies in a format of 4-5 storey street scaled structures with commercial/office/retail at ground level and still provide every apartment with decent light, fresh air, a view and a roof garden.

We don't need to go to the boonies to provide excellent and affordable housing much closer to downtown.

The problem ain't the inventiveness and ideas, it's the political will that's lackin'- in my view.

I've always thought that European-style street level trams were also an excellent option.

Good ideas.

electric cars

Certainly some people consider it a solution. I'm of the opinion that we should first maximize our use of fossil-burners by encouraging smaller displacement vehicles carrying more people -- before trying to reconstruct car culture with a different energy source.

Having to construct a whole new infrastructure to perpetuate the same problems seems futile to me.

And don't mind the jab about the 'burbs... I'm just jealous that I never get invited to the wife-swapping and Satanic rituals y'all got going on out there. :-)

well you wouldn't want to

well you wouldn't want to expand the energy industry. it might actually create jobs, economic growth and, heaven forbid, wealth!! makes more sense to boost taxes and go further into debt. at least that way we're not creating any right-wing neo-fascist capitalist pigs. power to the people baby!!!!

The Great Global Warning Swindle

Watch it on youtube.
I might believe part of what the enviromush is saying about carbon footprints, when I see waterfront property decline in price.
So far no change in price.
Funny, considering that this land is about to be flooded.

Beachfront on Tuvalu

Another brilliant post by Tyee's resident village idiot.

How 'bout some beachfront on Tuvalu for you, Ron? Just don't try to drink the water...

http://science.monstersandcritics.com/news/article_1251942.php/_South_Pacific_island-nations_endangered_by_rising_sea_levels

Where blossoming fruit orchards once stood, all that remains are smelly puddles of brackish water. And practically all freshwater wells have been contaminated by sea water.

'They must leave this year. The way things are going, I think the islands will be underwater in 15 to 20 years,' said Tobasi.

How about the Maldives? Or Kiribati? I can strike you a real good deal....imagine - no strikes, no noisy people hounding you, no lefties, no jerks, just the pounding surf, getting louder.....and louder.... and louder......

Hey! Why's my ass wet?

Cappy

Ummmm.... what if we contaminate all our water with that exploration and extraction so that we cannot live there? It's already happening in Alberta - an aquifer around Coaldale where our friends live are contaminated beyond reason - stinky sulfurous water that the cows won't go near.

In a few years, that supply will all be gone, along with the tax dollars we gained, but our aquifers will still be contaminated, and we won't have any water for ourselves to drink, never mind export. Why can't we have both?

Surely a more restrained pace that takes into account environmental needs equally with the profit motive would be reasonable.

Add to that Maestro's suggestion of a decent royalty on the gas that is OURS to begin with, and we ought to be all right. Why we've persisted in giving away our natural resources at fractions of a penny on the dollar just to keep business going is beyond me. If OPEC can shut it down when it suits them to drive the price up (read: royalties), surely we can too.

And that goes for beetle-damaged raw logs heading south too.

Elliot thank God you've seen the light - finally!

Welcome to the fold brother Elliot. Next week we'll show you the secret handshake.

Thanks, kl

Thanks for the link. I am interested in the issue. Read the article, scary stuff indeed. I wonder where Barry Penner is? Wining and dining with Mr. Four Seasons, I suspect.

clubofrome

A very simple reason. The population is going to continue to grow.

FWIW A significant number of vehicles that are manufactured today are capable of lasting 15 - 20 years and if you could get spare parts even longer.

There have been significant energy savings made over the last decade and there will continue to be more but at some point, sooner rather than later IMO, we will be reaching the point of diminishing returns.

It would be interesting to have you expand on the lifestyle that you feel everybody should live in order to accomplish your goals.

Elliot:

Re G. West's congrats to you.

If you turn into a G West fan club member...I ain't reading any more of your posts.

Secret Handshake...??? You'll end up with hair on your palms.

Look at G West's protege,Clubofrome.
Look what happened to him after too many Secret Handshakes....(see link photo)

http://www.fortunecity.combennyhills/pun/190/cousinittheaddamsfamily.htm

Elliot:

Re G. West's congrats to you.

If you turn into a G West fan club member...I ain't reading any more of your posts.

Secret Handshake...??? You'll end up with hair on your palms.

Look at G West's protege,Clubofrome.
Look what happened to him after too many Secret Handshakes....(see link photo)

http://www.fortunecity.combennyhills/pun/190/cousinittheaddamsfamily.htm

New link

Re Clubofrome and over use of secret handshake:

Last link didn't work:

Try

http://www.k12.nf.ca/roncallips/familyliving/addams%20fam/cousin_itt.htm

For suburb_guy

Try power generation near where we use it, and there are ways of doing it. We lose a full 2 thirds of energy from energy transfer to run turbines that turn large copper windings to generate power with heat driven turbines as two thirds is lost in heat loss. We lose a further two thirds of our power in transmission inefficiencies through power lines. Add it all up, and we lose close to 90% of the energy potential due to power inefficiencies created by heat loss from heat driven turbines (coal and natural gas generation) and generating power that isn't near power consumption sites (cites). With me so far?

Hydro power generation is much more efficient in terms of energy and environmental safety, but is more remote in terms of where it is generated and this is its major drawback. This is also one of the major problems with site C, is the lost power in transmission with powerlines across large distances. The other major drawback is with its water supply. Cite C's main water supply besides runoff is glaciers and these glaciers are melting at a quick pace. It is predicted that the water flows will drop signifigantly within 10 years and by 30 years, make Site C a place that shouldn't have been built for all practical purposes, but I haven't yet seen the real numbers so don't quote me.

Site C might be good for the short term even with its lost efficiencies in power transmission through powerlines... til the water flows reduce dramatically and the lost efficiency of power transmission is still an issue. I would have to know the megawatts generated along with cost analysis and accurate unbiased water throughputs predicted over long timelines to know if its worth doing. Guys like Capitalism would think so. He likely invested in world.com and got out early before it went broke and screwed tens of thousands of people so guys like that don't care about the long term and its obvious that this government doesn't care either if they look at the greater environmental impacts but once again, I can't say for sure. I will say this. Environmental groups have looked at reduced waterflows with site C and their predictions don't look good. Its not so much glacier melts as it is the overall altitudes of mountain, hill and valley ranges around cite C as well as global warming impacts of the North in general that will effect waterflows in the future, so while some of us greedy short sighted thinkers might think its a slam dunk, think again.

So where are the answers with power? Producing it as closely as possible to sites of consumption and as efficiently as possible is your answer. I've always said we should be exploiting geothermal and solar refraction, two area's that are largely unexploited because Greedy capitalists are too focused on oil and gas.

As far as places like Vancouver go, I can tell you this. Its a geothermal goldmine. There are also mountain ranges around the lower mainland that have good altitudinal drops with large enough year round water flows that can capture water by pipe to build enough pressure at the bottom to make it highly feasable for BC Hydro to look into. Altitudinal drops that can feed pipes of 10 to 14inch diameters are much lengthier than what pressure depths generate with dams like micca in Revelstoke and while water flows don't compare with the odd pipe here and there, there is power in numbers and the transmission efficiencies with shorter powerlines are dramatically increased compared to more isolated area's like Revelstoke.

Why the government has never looked into such proposals is anyone's guess. My guess is MLA's aren't that imaginative along with BC Hyrdo's directors and CEO and on the overall, we want big results with big projects without looking at the micro projects that have excellent potential for added hydro generation at much more predictable cost and revenue projections. And thats a major shame.

BC Hydro could do so much more... and Campbells big dream is to privatize to his Republican pals in the U.S. but first cripple its ability to grow and serve the way it should and its a damn shame mouthpieces like Capitalism don't catch on but then, was he ever a Canadian to begin with? Certainly not in his greedy heart. Chris H has made an excellent point concerning Campbell's handling of BC Hyrdo that shouldn't be overlooked.

Unfortunately, since Campbell legislated laws that restrict BC Hydro's ability to generate knew forms of power such as what I'm proposing, a new government would have to be elected to replace this one with more forward thinking that looks at a crown to be run as its supposed to be... to serve people with low rate power.
But then... when did Campbell ever serve anyone but big business and himself?

Lorne Mccuaig

For Dave 2

As for the downie slide in Revelstoke not being dangerous, there is evidence that it is sliding by a few feet to 10 feet or more every year. The environmental assessment of it is that there is a likelyhood of it sliding and its impacts are major, but its not likely to happen in this century.

We are talking about a huge water displacement if it ever does happen and its impacts on the Micca dam structure is that it will be taken out, regardless of being built with concrete. Its simply too much water hitting the dam all at once. The good news is that estimates of it sliding are 50 to 150 years away.

Everyone believes it won't happen within our lifetimes and that's likely the case but most of us also believe that if it did happen, the dam would break from the water displacement and flood and destroy half the town of Revelstoke. (its a no brainer to those who have seen how large this slide really is from a driveby and had a birds eye view of the scale of what we are talking here). I will say this. With record wet years, and with the dam being there where it never used to be, (which has escalated its slide) there is the possiblity of it happening sooner than anyone thinks, but I'm with the next century folk on this one. These things take time.

Lorne McCuaig
Revelstoke

Good posts!

Van Isle, Zalm, Freebear, Chris H, all good posts by the way. I enjoyed them.

Its unfortunate naturally, that so many of us don't look at other alternatives besides burning oil, coal, gas, and global warming. I'm mystified that others on this site don't think as clearly and logically as yourselves but then... not everyone thinks of others other than themselves and they make it clear and obvious.

Lorne Mccuaig
Revelstoke

three to make one

Nice work Maestro. Takes you three tries to successfully not be funny.

No, I didn't click the link dingus.

Elliott:

I totally support an expansion of the energy industry... tidal energy, wind energy, solar energy, geo-thermal energy.

Why do you want to prop up companies that have had decades to diversify but just kept suckling the public teat instead? What do you love corporate welfare so much?

Stump:

Yes, you did.

We can tell.

Typical Leftie.
Ass-u-ming before you even read it. Keeps it simple.

Next one will be on your Visa bill. Oh sorry, you prefer AmEx ,right ?

Power loss in transmission lines.

The brain

Doesn't quite add up to 133.333%

FWIW The first 2/3 ,if the loss were that high, would be lost no matter where you generate the power.

Things I WOULD pay for

Nope. No click on the link. Not interested.

I'd pay good money to send you to punctuation school however.

Integrating: New vs Old

Simple example (even for you Stump)

B.C. Hydro's Power Smart program has been in existence for over 10 years. Much of it was based on conservation measures .

Those energy efficient " Compact Flourescent " etc. light bulbs have been out a while and heavily promoted . However, when they first came out they weren't cheap.I seem to recall almost $10 per light bulb. Incandescent ones cost about 10 % of that.

However, nowadays these same energy efficient light bulbs have come down in price to approx 60-70 % less than they used to be, ie now approx. 1/3 the original price.

We've now started to use these energy efficient ones, but we won't go and replace every bulb. They make claims of saving 75 % of energy costs compared to the old incandescent bulbs. We'll monitor them to see if they do hold up for the 5 years they often claim to last.

Australia is looking towards banning incandescent bulbs. Fine. Let them perform a domestic Aussie guinea pig experiment, track the results, and report back. Then we can decide which is the best path to follow. Don't try this "greening one-upmanship" that many Gov'ts are seemingly attempting in some sort of greening Olympics

Like everything else, don't jump in feet first. The first barrier to change is often the upfront costs an individual can directly relate to. Slow gradual phases of integration in most things is better than quantum leap ones. However, too many wish to actually jump in head first in quantum leap fashion.

That's just a simple example re: the energy efficient bulbs. However, those simple examples are more reflective and relevant to human nature. Extrapolate that to perhaps predict human nature on much bigger scale "Go Green" initiatives.

Sunlight is free...so how many Solar Heating or Solar based power generation systems do any of us see being used ? My own experience is that they are very much the exception. Stump and I discussed trees and tree bylaws on another TYEE thread. Whats the root common thread?...its AESTHETICS. If Solar panels for heat and power become wide spread in use , rest assured the tree bylaw fans will phone City Hall about how those "Go Green" solar panels are "F-ing" up their NIMBY view. ( Maybe hide the solar panel in the tree? ).

Its this sort of outside the Leftie box thinking the rest of us have to do, but fortunately its not that hard.

Sure Stump, you're on : Send the following details

Stump's VISA # is _________
Stump's AmEx # is _________

living on credit

I prefer cash. Don't like to carry consumer debt. Credit is for emergencies like killer bike deals that I can't pass up.

Send me the receipt and proof of a passing grade first please. That's how it works.

Aussies see the light

Cost of installation and recouping said cost has been a barrier for many homeowners until recently.

SPEC has a rooftop system in place if you wish to find out more about that sort of thing. No need for it to ruin the view.

As for the Aussie bulb experiment, the government sends students door to door to replace bulbs for homeownwers. Deemed a big success by all involved. Gov't expects a 66% reduction in energy use (for lighting purposes I assume) per household.

Atta Boy Stump:

I knew youse had it in ya's !
Cash is King...(only Lefties run plastic).

Killer Bike deals eh?...youse mean the one's "on -sale" in the bars ?

Do they throw in a free helmet ?

Is the original owner still attached to the helmet ?

Just curious.

bike deals

No. I don't buy from crooks.

Stump:

Aussie's Govt's sends students to change light bulbs ...? Well, unless they do it out of the kindness of their heart ...it ain't free, likely one of those Gov't intitiatives that costs ....drum roll...lotsa tax $$$$$$.

Now we have to start "How many Aussie Students do we need to screw in an energy efficient light bulb ?" type -of -jokes.

Then we get into Arts/ Fine Arts students vs other disciplines. This further implies Aussies are not smart enough to change their own light bulbs. What did Aussies do before then ?

Then we add in Aussie indigenous culture..how many FOSTERS do they need to drink to change a light bulb ..and the more they drink does it make them more capable?

Then G West pipes in and writes a G West form letter complaint(cc) to the TYEE editor that we are slagging Aussie- POMies...

Ah... forque -it, time to throw another shrimp on the barbie.

BTW: Whats a " homeownwers" in your last post ?.

Want ME to lendink youse some $$$s for spellink n punktuation lessunz ?

Solar

Part of the problem with solar is Hydro's ridiculous payback policy for individuals who sell power back into the grid. They only get a small fraction of the price per kwh that's charged for the same power coming off the grid.

Payback would be much faster if the in/out ratio were much closer to 1:1.

Therefore, more people would expend the capital to go solar (or other alternative).

It's kind of the reciprocal of the situation vis a vis Alcan&Hydro that the Utilities Commission turned down.

Mini flourescent bulbs

There's a big program going on in Ontario right now where students are "volunteering" and distributing such bulbs in communities there.

bulb replacement

Couple of high school kids, a ladder, some bulbs, probably a vehicle to get around in... yeah, that's a real big money pit dude.

No doubt the homeownwers really resent the intitiatives :-)

Snert

There will always be a need for continued commerce as populations grow or recede regionally. But continued growth = progress budgeting will fail. We need to prove/establish/find out if we can maintain the highly speciallized economies we have built. More locally can we maintain/sustain a community with all it's required infrastructure like roads, utilities, schools etc. When a municipality says we must develop more land to bring in more taxes to pay for our upgrades or just balance the budget then we have a problem. Growth will not solve these problems, that is my point. Prove to me we can maintain ourselves first. Maybe the cost of this type of society is too high. Roads, running hot water, electricity on demand, maybe these things come with a higher cost than we know. Just because we have come to rely on them doesn't mean the third world will follow our program. Maybe they value community more than individual claim to create weath for personal selfish gain. Does that clarify it for you? I do tend to over generalize, as I am assuming we all have basic foundations as a starting point. This should be ample proof that our education system has failed to find a common thread for all of us to start from. I think greed and selfishness are part of this dynamic. When someone claims the right to do whatever, whenever they want, I see a product of a selfish society perpetuated on false principles. I don't see much hope right now for sustainability because of the lack of common ground. It will come down to a revolution for sure. But hey! If you live by the rule that change is good, then an old fashioned, knock em down, drag em out blood bath, brother vs. sister style revolution is just the ticket!! The time to shake things up is long over due.

Emma! Where's my rocket launcher?

Tyee. Island power. A subject on its own?

After the point has been so well made here, regarding power lost in transmission, one has to wonder at the need to run power lines from the Lower Mainland to Vancouver Island - an island much larger than many countries and an island that could, and should, be self-sufficient in its electricity needs.

While controversy rages over health damage many residents claim will result the from proposed upgrading and proximity of these power lines, I've heard no reference regarding their need.

Strangely, two spiked letters, one to a major daily, and one to 24hrs, tell me that even the media does not wish to raise the issue of Vancouver Island providing its own electrical power.

Perhaps, for some, offshore oil and gas exploration trumps exploiting the many other offshore resources capable of producing abundant electrical power.

Stump Stomps!

Poor poster maestro above doesn't even know when he's been trumped, stumped, topped and stomped. Continues to prove that humour along with rational thought are virtually unattainable. Nothing stops "Ron Obvious." So far behind he thinks he's ahead....

Funny Bulbs

I wonder how much 'energy' is used to make those heavy and complicated twist-bulbs.

Don't forget that more 'energy' is needed when they're dead, for re-cycling, because they contain mercury in the ballast. Mercury in land-fills that can eventually leach into ground-water is not good.

Decent point realisticman- but

It is being addressed - the disposal issue - on several websites. The cost one appears to be covered in the higher initial cost (sans subsidy) - the bulbs also last a high multiple longer than conventional incandescent ones as well. Energy usage isn’t the only upside.

Every home has at least one smoke alarm with radioactive material in it too - also a disposal problem. Nothing comes without cost and risk. The risk of doing nothing is just too damn great - even Rupert Murdock now recognizes that - along with his lackey the PM of Australia.

Have you ever dug into the sand along the shores of the Fraser? Where gold sluicing and the like was done? Check there if you're looking for mercury - it'll take you no more than a few minutes with a shovel and pan to find all you want.

Thanks Brain

For what it's worth, my point wasn't that the slide site wasn't dangerous, it was that Site C isn't on the Columbia and thus isn't affected by Downey. There are plenty of reasons not to build Site C, but that isn't one of them

Is Mica concrete or earthen? An earlier poster suggested that Mica was earthen.

I'm trying to put this altogether... is the slide halfway up Hwy 23 between the Mica and Revelstoke Dams? It's been almost 20 years since I've been on Hwy 23 North, and never all the way to Mica.

Compact Bulbs

The cheaper ones aren't necessarily as long lasting, I bought a 6 pack of 13W bulbs to replace the 6 60W incandescents in the bathroom, one has already failed after less than a year... haven't figured out what to do with it yet... haven't bothered replacing it either, so I guess I'm saving another 13W :) The "name brand" bulbs in the house seem to be lasting as expected, however.

Does anyone here really

Does anyone here really think big corporations will allow this so called green to happen?
http://www.ichblog.eu/
This is the big picture that the msm CanWest, Glowbull TV (hollywood bs, a lost og, nothing about BC Rail/CN and the super 10 lane North American Hwy) isn't printing, because if we knew we'd all be breaking down the doors of these OUR so called elected puppets that are good "lil" puppies of Corporations who actually control our lives!
STOP BUYING "STUFF" FOR ONE WEEK A MONTH EVERY MONTH Stop driving as much as you can and see if this doesn’t plug up the container ships, oil tankers, ports, trucks, planes, and on till these parasites finally understand "WE THE PEOPLE OF THE WORLD HAVE THE POWER"! Without US buying, the corporations have no money = no power
With out the media we are left in the dark about OUR and OUR KIDS future, do WE really want this?
With out any word in/on msm about TILMA WE are being given over to Corporate greed and slavery.

Buy local as it will help

Buy local as it will help our farmers, ranchers, etc and we won't just get trickle down.
Transfer your bank accounts to Vancity or Credit Unions at least there as members you can vote and even get elected to the boards and as members you can go to their meetings!
The big 6 banks stole 19 billion dollars from any one who dealt with them, that's more than Our Feds gave US Canadians in the so called fudget/Budget.
So gordo how do you feel as our glorious leader/traitor getting zilch, nota, zip from your photo op buddy?
The NWO by the Bilderbergs and the war machines
Do a wikapedia on the Bilderbergs or just googal!

This is what WE should

This is what WE should really be concerned with today as 2008 will be what they think will be their year to come out fom their holes?
Some of the players in NWO
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/NWO/

http://home.freeuk.net/freenations/british-eurofederalists.html

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010430/greider

http://www.jeremiahproject.com/newworldorder/nworder04.html

http://oldfraser.lexi.net/publications/politics_reform/dobell.html

Stump: re: SPEC's roof

Re SPEC's roof:

Of course they have to have ONE of T-H-O-S-E, what " Non -Profit" Environmental group can NOT have it , or something resembling it?

They have to "sell" us they ain't hypocrites, so the donations $$$$ (ie lifeblood) roll in , (though SPEC in my view has been more realistic and less radical , thus more sale-able even to non -Lefties).

Speaking of Enviros: You heard about Suzukis sham trip across Canada, did you? Also Old Davie S other aspects...good stories from the real world about his creme de la creme needs to speak re: "Environment".

Return of the Red Herring

Here we go again with the Suzuki slander. It's really just a red herring designed to attack your enemies and distract from the shortcomings of your arguments isn't it? Maybe we should start calling you "Roll-Mop-stro"? What made it a sham? Provide details for your off-topic ad hominem attacks. Does it have anything to do with what we are discussing?

I'm guessing it's pretty hard to travel with our current infrastructure and be completely green (as evidenced by Harper's one day plane trip to UBC last week to announce some more Hydrogen Highway nonsense). Let's go THERE if you want some enviro-hypocrisy.

And this makes it OK, I suppose?

Read the whole comment snert

You're not even bordering on irrelevance - you're already there.

Proper disposal doesn't have to be a problem, as realisticman undoubtedly knows. Happily, he's capable of abstract thought and you aren't.

Dave 2 - recycling compact fluorescent bulbs

Here's what you're looking for:

How are compact fluorescent bulbs recycled?
The Lamp Recycler, the company that recycles the bulbs, utilizes a small vacuum chamber that is constantly rinsed with water. The lamps are fed into the machine and once in the vacuum chamber, the end of the lamp is broken open. The vacuum draws out the mercury and phosphorus, and cold water is used to keep mercury in its most transportable state, a liquid.

The glass is then crushed and the aluminum end caps separated and these items are sent for recycling. The end caps are then sent to local smelters, and the glass is used to manufacture light-reflecting paint for highways. The mercury and phosphorus are placed in sealed drums and sent for separation, recycling and neutralization.

How much mercury is in a compact fluorescent bulb?
Both linear fluorescent and CFL lamps (light bulbs) contain a small amount of mercury, necessary for normal operation. CFLs contain four milligrams, approximately half the mercury found in a linear fluorescent lamp. Mercury vapour will only be released when the lamp is broken while operating. Most lamp manufacturers offer a "low mercury" or environmentally friendly lamp. The green socket or end cap identifies these lamps.

Because compact fluorescent bulbs contain mercury, is it better for the environment to use incandescent bulbs?
No. Although fluorescent lights contain small amounts of mercury, they are far more energy-efficient than incandescent lights. Using energy-efficient compact fluorescent bulbs is better for the environment because they reduce greenhouse gas emissions from gas-fired generating stations, and reduce the need to build new generation facilities. Because they last about eight times longer, fewer bulbs go into landfills and less packaging is required.

There is a long list of recycling depots on the BC Hydro website - from which the above was copied.

Stump: Enviro Hero's

Re: The Enviro Z'Heros:

It's very simple:

Either lead by example ...or they can piss -off.
Even Jim Jones had good intentions.

Michael Smyth , in a recent article, calculated the tonnes of CO2 green house gases Suzuki's bus created...then apparently the last mile he road a bike as a photo-opp.

Nice Optics....eh??? If the Left shoe fits...wear it.

Suzuki was invited to give a speech on Van Isle....hotbed of BC Lefties...apparently he demanded to fly....Also BCTF was a bit pissed re: his Speakers Fees and declined to invite him over it.

Nice Guy....Creme de la creme-sky Hypocrite. Thus Leftie Hero.

PS Otherwise, nothing personal, Stump.

Which is it?

G West

Kinda flies in the face of this.

"I write clearly and simply"

like I said snert

Realisticman is capable of abstract thought; you're not!

clubofrome

It's the end goal I'm trying to find out. Over generalizing tends to obscure things like that.

We do what we do because we can, not because there is a rule book somewhere that says else wise.

We do what we do because we are .5% of the earth's population inhabiting a particularly resource rich 6.7% of it's landmass.

We do what we do not because we are greedy and don't want to share but because if we don't use it we'll lose it. That's life.

In any event you may still need the rocket launcher.

Suzuki

Fair enough. I agree. I won't attempt to defend big Dave as I don't know the particulars... but I would remind you of another saying... "People in glass houses". How big is your footprint?

Stump - don't fall for it

Like everything else maestro posts, his research comes from one of several conservative and right-wing blogs or websites. Almost word for word. He doesn't actually do any research, just hangs around a few such places and pulls his quotes from there. It's another reason why, in my view, most of his posts lack any coherence and internal consistency. The real maestro - his own words - are almost always suffixed by a '-sky'; that's his syntactical signature. That and a black and irrational anger that comes out when someone actually questions his real motivation.

There was nothing wrong with Suzuki using a diesel bus to make his trip across Canada. The alternative would have been a bunch of short-haul hops in an upper atmosphere destroying jet. Suzuki bought the first Prius in this country. People like Baird and maestro are typical of the kind of ‘reasoned’ debate you get from the right: No reason and no chance for real debate.

They don't have a point and I'll bet, when the election is called, not one of the party leaders will be taking a bicycle across the country. They’ll be burning kerosene and diesel to beat the band. They’ll make some feints in the direction of bio-diesel and the like – along the lines of those laughable ads on television where some comedy club idiot sticks a microphone in an actors face….but that’ll be about all.

Suzuki has nothing to be ashamed of or to apologize for – if the rest of us Canadians had behaved as responsibly as this guy has we'd have already met our Kyoto targets.

Typical right wing slime mongering. They can't understand anyone who lives a principled life and so they blacken the name of some who is living one.

Ignore 'em. They are just a bunch of bitter souls. Now watch what happens when maestro reads this.

belated thanks for the link

belated thanks for the link maestro. the adams family was a wonderful show and cousing itt does indeed resemble some of these hairy lefties, but i won't be more specific than that for fear of gworst reporting me to the editor. ooooooooooohhhhhh. did someone say something about suzuki? circa 1985 i saw that clown opine that there would be no harvestable trees remaining in b.c. in 20 years. say no more. you guys (lefties included) missed a great day of skiing at the current best ski hill in the world today. harmony bowl was exquisite, and is that super highway ever coming along nicely.

Same old boring clap trap

Chris Simon hockey again, eh El.

Best you can manage I guess.

did you say something

did you say something gwest/alcibiades/?/?/??

another own goal el

Skeptikool, what is a "spiked letter"?

Skeptikool, what is a "spiked letter" as in your comment:

If it means (I'm guessing here) that you wrote two letters, one to a CanWest daily and one to 24 hours and they didn't publish either one of them, it really proves nothing. Keep trying. They do pay attention to what topics are raised and how many people write in. After that, CanWest goes back to sleep.

What bugs me is when they do publish somebody's Letter to the Editor and then put it behind a subscribers' lock so you have to pay to see it in print. Something unconstitutional about that if you ask me.

Are CFL's worth the cost?

Replacing the 6 60W bulbs in my bathroom with 6 13W CFLs should, in theory, save me $6.48 per year, assuming they're lit 1 hour/day... Sure, that's not a lot, but that's $25.93 over 4 years, assmuing they last 4 years (1 did not). The 6 pack of CFL bulbs cost about $15.00 (I've since seen a 6 pack at Walmart for under 10)... so in theory, I come out ahead... I think the point is if we all did this, the cumulative savings would add up to the point where we don't neeed another dam.... And hey, if my GE CFL trilight fails before October 2009, they'll replace it (finally, an excuse to be a packrat)

That being said, I can't see banning incandescents... they have their place (such as inside the fridge or the oven), and I'm unlikely to replace the 200W bulb in the basement cold room which is lit maybe 2 minutes a week, if that.

What I really need is an compact flourescent clothes dryer :)

about those climate models

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/warming/debate/singer.html

I found this so helpful for understanding some background science. There is just no getting away from the con job being foisted on us.

here comes the sun

It's complicated.
I think that there is more carbon produced by volcanoes, that anything we do, by far.
I think the SUN plays a huge factor, that influences the entire Universe.
Clouds, caused by heating of the ocean by the sun.
Mars is heating up.
But weather changes are always happening.
They always will.
The South Arctic ice mass is growing, not shrinking.
Move your family to there, and start a new colony, to carry us on.

Universe error

I think you might need some remedial cosmology. The Sun is one star among billions.
ROTFLMAO

The Best of G. West Volume 666

G WEST:

G West Quote:

" Ignore em. They are just a bunch of bitter souls .
Watch what happens when maestro reads this ."

Response: BLESS YOU G WEST AND ALCIABIDES

............................
.................................s
....................................k
.......................................y.

con job (not so much)

Mopled:

There was a slight change with our Earth between the last Ice Age and the present. About six billion people's worth.

The last incidence of global warming may have occurred for a different set of reasons than the current one.

Why would you assume that global warming must have only one explanation?

G West:Suzuki's golden opp. L-O-S-T.

No ....Actually Suzuki had a Golden Opportunity to do the "R-I-G-H-T" thing, but "left" it too late.

He could have integrated a " SHOW US " tour and SHOW CASE viable options.

What about those solar powered vehicles that Engineering students have developed in focussed peer competitions? Why not use one of these for part of the Cross -Canada tour?

Pedal powered flight, which has been succesfully done.

One other TYEE poster mentioned (in another recent TYEE topic) compressed air technology to run vehicles.

What about a (who killed the) " electric car" for part of the Cross Canada journey?

What about using Ballards so - called Hydrogen fuel cell technology and use a prototype for part of Suzuki's cross Canada journey that could assuage the growing doubt that Hydrogen fuel cells will ever be viable ? ( the current premise that a fossil fuel ie such as methane is still required to make the Hydrogen technology viable).

Why not also make use of Hybrid vehicles for part of the journey?

Etc. Etc. with all sorts of other technologies

Canada was between seasons...Winter meets Spring , perfect scenario, and could have tested all these and other technologies in the REAL trans -Canadian environment.

If Dr. Suzuki the PhD was "smart" he could had the golden opportunity to integrated all these different Go - Green technologies in a Show US , the humble masses, that these alternative technologies are ACTUALLY viable and not some false hope being promoted like the old snake oil side -show carny days.

They could have studied all thes technologies being tried in this Cross Canada trip as they were being used "out of the lab and into the REAL world" . Then take the data, tabulate and analyze the results...then report back.

However, rather than a shite-or-get-off-the-pot, and a put- up -OR -shut- up,but it appears that its more like they can't put up but still won't shut up.

Something to hide?

The name Ballard is reminding me more of Dog Food, or T.O Maple Leaf's ex- owner and less and less of a Go -Green possibility.

Suzuki and other so-called Environmentalist types simply become corporate entities of their own...rest on old laurels, and mix up more snake oil. "Please donate $$$$ so we can save Planet___????"

Seemed like Suzuki simply milked the Enviro Zeigeist... his bandwagon was a green house gas producing diesel bus.....that's about it.(BTW Did he fuel up at Petro Canada and get this Petro points ? Air miles?)

Of course, Lefties can't get enough of it...for some strange reason, but perhaps that is the essence of Leftie-ism-sky, a syncophantic worship of false Leftie gods of ideology and promoting/defending them using retired English Teacher tactics...hissy fits and reporting violations in use of his/her Majesties' Engklysh.

"Right" G Werst....................sky?

gradual change or all or nothing?

When it comes to light bulbs you advocate a gradual approach. When it comes to Suzuki it's go big or go home. Double standard or simple hate-on for the man? Hard to tell.

Solar-powered vehicles aren't quite ready for prime-time. Pedal-powered flight... well if you've seen the Gossamer Condor, you'd know why your suggestion reminds me of the saying: "better to remain silent and be thought a fool...." I'll bet you know the rest.

a note on hybrids

Hybrids usually on run electric in stop and start urban driving. They're still fossil-burners on the open road.

Do some research. Drop the uninformed accusations please.

correction

sorry. Hybrids usually only run. blah, blah blah.

hydrogen = hot air

They're not viable. Suzuki probably knows that. Why would he extend false hope and use an unpromising technology. I think his trip was about realistic solutions.

Stump:

You are missing the gist...and maybe your pot and kettle ain't black, perhaps its stainless steel with teflon.

New(now old) Tech. Light Bulb analogy was more a reflection of the Public's actually buying into it. Cost is always a factor. Call it some basic observation on human nature...try it some time.

What was useful in that discussion was comments by others about " DO THEY LAST 5 count em' FIVE YEARS " ? If they DO last 5 count em 5 YEARS then what happens to them...toxic waste or recycled ?

Or is the warranty so pro-rated it is worthless, or even moreso, the receipt gets tossed and one does not have a warranty case to make to the retailer and manufacturer if they don't live up as advertised ?

Incandescent bulbs...as another TYEE poster says, will still have some use. Will Canada ban them in Knee Jerk fashion ...then what's the outfall?

I see various Public Faciliites have gone green....ever use a Gym where these new energy efficient lights stay dim for hours? They often have problems providing adequate light. How much do they cost...I never seem to hear about the capital costs..always the " These will save 75% on power costs...blah blah blah ".

No, the real comprehensive question is " When is the break even point reached "? which forces the capital costs to be equally advertised. Gov't is a typical classic rat hole for these enviro-politically correct initiatives to piss $$$ down. If Private Sector is on board, then that's more indicative of the proof is in the pudding.

Some of this NEW Go- Green IS OLD tech. Geez I remember when Ballard shares were about $5 in the mid 1990's . I don't think Ballard has recorded a profit in years.

No hate on for Suzuki, probably a nice fella, enjoyed his CBC Nature of Things...but he like many of his old hippy peers,...seems to enjoy the rock star persona, all image, no substance. (BTW I often access his web -site).

You again missed the point Stump.....He missed a golden opportunity to showcase BOTH (i)theoretical and (ii) practical applications of what is promoted as the new cutting -edge enviro- friendly technology, which is really becoming old dated technology. Why? Maybe it really isn't practical, and simply the old re-invent the wheel and all the Gov't and donor funding that often goes with it. False hope is better than no hope...and the former is more the norm than the latter in these so-called sophisticated and enlightened days.

Re: " better to remain silent and be a thought a fool ..." . Is that in Suzuki's Non Profit society tax receipt brochure?

Well Lefties do both....(i)They talk and leave no doubt and (ii) when cornered they shut up and thus add to the overwhelming mountain of evidence. The glove fits.

PS It's raining Stump...remember to wear rain gear when out on the bike. I know, I know it's that damn Climate Change. Also, it may be Blonde Pitbull's birthday ,...so be extra careful.

Bait and Choke...

No need to audition for trolling for dollars maestro, you're a natural host. You are the flagship for the trolls here! They still think you post under one name, but you've slipped up. I mean what are the chances of 3 or 4 complete and total morons being on the same site all at the same time???!! The same chance that our sun effects the entire universe! HAHA! Ron Erwin, Ron Obvious, elliot, maestro, same themes, same logic. You can't hide behind your mama's skirt forever. Whew....My sides are hurting again.... I can't wait for your next meltdown... please stop... you're killing us.

maestro

They last, on average 8 times (8x) what a conventional incandescent bulb does.

Any more questions?

I see you're still pining for a strong leader.

What's with that anyway.

what's a 'gym'

I ride a bike, swim, do yoga and play sports. I don't need to lift chunks of metal to stay in shape. :-)

theoretically speaking

Well, they wanted to use bio-diesel but it would have voided the warranty on the bus, so no go on orders of the company it was rented from.

As to theoretical solutions... I guess they'd be great if you're theoretically travelling across the country, not so much in the real world where there are practically zero options for long distance energy-efficient travel

Media tools: Spike, round file, file 13

BC Mary,

Sorry to be so late responding. You were correct "spiked" letters are those that go unpublished into the round file - as in wastebasket.

Letters pages tell us much about a paper's credibility - something editors would do well to keep in mind. Perhaps the Vancouver Sun's choice of Letter of the Day, today. illustrates my point. It might have been entitled, Let's hear it for apathy and the 2010 Olympics

The only hypocrisy

The only hypocrisy relative to this issue is the way people like maestro hang onto the coattails of cheap and dirty media analysis to try and assassinate the reputations of people like Suzuki who actually have one.

David Suzuki has nothing whatever to apologize for unless Stephen Harper makes his upcoming cross-country election tours by hang-glider. I’ll be waiting for a few pictures of the Harper campaign bus idling outside the East Block – just like the limousines have been doing ever since Stephie boy took power. Talk about facetious hypocrites. Some Leader maestro!

In terms of damage to the environment, maestro might look to some members of the music fraternity for examples of folks who use buses irresponsibly.

Suzuki has nothing to apologize for and a lot to take justified credit for...

Stump: re: Gym

Gym = Gymnasium

Usually a large indoor multi - purpose public facility whose predominant use is facilitating various forms of physical activity.

However: Gyms can also be used for Leftie rallies,ie " let's make Burrard Bridge Bike Only "...and while we are at it, renew our " Vancouver = a Nuclear Free Zone " ... 20 years and no mushroom clouds yet = Lefties belief they are onto something. Rules and Regulations till ya puke.

Legal tidbit : usually fees for Gym use are waived if an elected offical books it for official purposes. Most Lefties are usually THE cheapest b*stards out there anyway. Lefties by a combination of inherent definition and design always want someone else to do the "tithing" to support the Leftie Punch Party.

Otherwise, Yer too humble Stump, very UN-Leftie-like , I 'm sure you can tear phone books in half and bend steel with your teeth and bare hands. (What...Yoga?)

PS Remember to re-cycle them in the Blue Box when you are done.

We have apparently agreed that, in the bigger scheme of all things realisitic and pragmatic, Warranty is important, right up there with Insurance. That's often, if not always, THE starting point.

Again Suzuki-sky missed a Golden Opp. to showcase Go -Green(besides donation $$$) possibilities. I wonder how much planning went into his Trans Canada trip...probably typical Leftie "quickie knee -jerk" NON-plan whose punch party line synchronicity would put the Radio City Music Hall Rockettes to shame.

Suzuki: for Prime Minister (?)

Suzuki has the inherent right to run for Prime Minister.

Whoever runs for Prime Minister cannot wear one hat.

Hypocrites wear certain hats in Public, and often wear them inside out ,if at all , in reality .

One can't call someone a hypocrite if they themselves never claimed a certain belief or set of beliefs. However,what does Suzuki and others like them represent ? What IS actually on the pedestal ?

Dr. Dave is a big boy, probably nothing he hasn't heard before. Nothing wrong with Dr. Daves' right to free speech, but don't also smoke then yell fire in the crowded theatre preaching to the converted. Also: Free Speech and Credibility are not often in the Leftie Thesaurus under " synonyms ".

Conclusion: Talk is cheap .....UNLESS you are a Non - Profit society.

BTW: It's not just Dr Dave...there are other groups as well, these groups have become corporate entities, (give or take the odd Kennedy or Al Gore from the US who tells us how bad we are) and these large Non Profit corporations simply elbow out other grassroots groups that may actually have more credibility. I read their web-sites...it's often same old same old, yet obviously still being $$$$ supported by the converted(?)

Typical - but where'd you leave your skis?

If I had to illustrate how utterly pointless everything you post is, my friend, I couldn't have done it any more effectively myself.

Well done. You are a fine advertisement for personally constructed irrelevance.

No '-skys' this morning though. Has your leader asked you to drop that affectation because he's finally realized how lame it looks? Which of your friends on the neo-con sites you usually inhabit told you it was making you look like a displaced person?

One thing David Suzuki can obviously ignore is comments from an envious and jealous entity from the cheap seats like you maestro. Talk is definitely cheap.

G.West Ski /Alci-ski

....And you, mon amis, are the WAL MART of cheap talk.

( BTW : Heard on the news that WAL MART is dispensing almost 1/2 a $$$ Billion dollars in bonuses to its .....drum roll...own Million plus Workers !!!

Locally, Leftie radical BCTF apparently won't hold its Annual Spring Break convention meeting due to its own office workers Union may picket the BCTF, are you aware of that G. West ? What gives? You tend to have an answer for everything...bless us again with one. Its ultimately Public Money trickling down...right?,... yeeshh. BCTF Scab-sky's soon ?)

However, we have established that you Lefties either all think and talk the same...or can speak for each other, as Dr. Dave hasn't disavowed themselves of your comments and representation on their behalf. Share the " wealth of deficit " on many fronts in a communal -collective koom -ba- ya sense.

Club-sky is making more sense than you...that's how bad things are getting in a rotten -apples with rotten -apples comparison-sky.

Otherwise: No LIKE-sky ? ....no LOOK -sky.

OK-sky?

maestro and skis

I'm no radical, belonged to a union only once (summer work in a saw mill - green chain actually), belong to no political party and have no problem with fair and principled criticism by or of anyone.

That's not what you do maestro and I'm hardly the first one to notice.

Like I said, you spend all your time talking about leadership and 'examples' of something or other my friend. I know you're not a leader so you must be following someone or something.

I can't help the fact that, from the casual observer's point of view, it appears to be a succession of tight little circles that you're describing.

Like I said, you forgot the skis - they might have, were they real, allowed you to actually move in a linear fashion rather than spinning doughnuts and making a lot of acrid tire-squealing smoke.

You're not even capable of crafting a decent insult without help, apparently.

As you were. You seem to like the idea of making yourself look stupid-sky! Carry on.

3 ID's of a Duck-sky

If it looks like a Leftie ....and walks like a Leftie ....and talks like a Leftie its a G West, a self -confessed Uber Leftie.

QUESTION: Which came first ?

(i) Leftie thus NO credibility OR

(ii) NO Credibility thus a Leftie .

(iii) G West = Leftie = no credibility = G West and vice - versa.

Sorry G West you were better off with your Alciabides scam being kept your own UNconfessed secret.

Talking with you is more the " Woe is X " 1 st time VERSUS " Shame on X " any other time.

You made your bed...now sleep in it.

Your cluelessness on many issues is nauseatingly apparent,...and I've come to realize that in much hindsight . You and your ideological programming obviously can't "stand" a lot of things , and yet you try to make " a stand ", yet you often "don't have a leg to stand on".

Gee ....and engage thee-sky in discussion ? Even Club-sky is starting to lap ya.

What's with the

What's with the teacher-bashing, maestro? Are you sore that they couldn't teach you to string a coherent sentence together? Let alone communicate any meaningful ideas in writing...

Medication time...

Getting closer but still lacks the flare of your usual meltdown. Nothing that would pass as a threat really. Treatments must be working. Was it a nervous breakdown, anxiety attack, or are you corresponding from the padded hotel! Don't you think that confessing your sins should be part of your 12 step recovery program. You still have anger issues and the credibility gap is squarely in your lap. Either way could someone please get a filter for the "leftie" and the "sky" references that plague every post. Maybe a consummer warning! "Reading this post may be hazardous to your health." Arghhhhh! Speedy recovery Ron!

Burrard Bridge correction

There was a move to take one lane away from cars and devote it to non-motorized transport. But the oh-so-fiscally responsible NPA decided instead to hang new walkways on a lovely, architecturally cohesive structure instead... at a cost of some millions, instead of a few cans of paint for lane reassignment.

Of course, the Lions Gate can manage with three lanes, but cars need all six for the Burrard! Not.

You might double check your Walmart facts too btw.

Google is your friend. Maybe IAMC can help you with the counting next time. Right after he's done appearing on the latest game show to sweep the nation... "Why Are You Stupider Than a Five Year Old Astrophysicist"

Gore trades carbon credits

http://www.counterpunch.org/donnelly03222007.html

I'm beginning to think some

I'm beginning to think some folks stray so off the subject that starts these threads might be because they like to see their words on the computer screen. What does Campbell's sudden conversion to Green have to do with most of the stuff that shows up. He supposedly went Green because it's quite in fashion right now. Big talk in the speech from the thorwn, very little in the budget. Who knows what will his next hobby horse will be.

We Love to Fly

Some said flying was going to end.

Some said it should

Monbiot among them. And he was right.

mopled: good link !

Thanks:

An executive I know who works for a major corporation told me they recently attended a company meeting with Al Gore as the guest speaker.

This same party told me that in their view, Al Gore is simply keeping their name in the news...playing possum,...riding the Green Horse,...and waiting in the weeds to make his next moves, perhaps another run at the U.S. Presidency.

Gore will let the other Democratic candidates burn out and flat -line, then inititiate a previously strategized move . He is simply pulsing how his " one trick Green -Horse pony " will play out.

Your excellent link exposes Gore's many Achilles heels, especially those while actually in office.

Interesting how the reality so often trumps their public perception, yet the perception still prevails. Sometimes these so-called "saviours and messiahs" are actually the worst and most unrepentant "hypocrites/sinners" .
ALSO: Funny how you don't see much if any of Clinton's support for ex-comrade Gore and his initiatives .

Th-th-th-th that's politics, folks.

Pledge

Has Inhofe signed self-same pledge? I could find no evidence to indicate he had after a quick Google search.

Poor poor Gore

Can we safely assume that since the science of global warming is pretty much a done deal it will be a retreating action of ad hominem attacks on public figures promoting green solutions from here on out?

maestro

Wow! Was that 7/11 or Mac's Milk?

You have important friends.

Let me know when you have something that can't be found on one of several dozen right-wing slap-sites maestro.

Gore has become a cliché-spouting clown but he's actually getting an important message out to the American populace. McLuhan would probably approve.

Campbell, on the other hand, hasn't yet mastered the idea that the medium is the message. He still just looks and sounds like a crook.

G -Alci- West

Keep guessing G West,

.....its always good to know people in high places...as well as many others ....but not to bottom feed like you do.

PS do you get tips for serving Slurpee's?

Let me know if you ever

Let me know if you ever meet one maestro.

And, given what you usually post, I'll want some proof: time, dates and photos.

So far the only 'important' person I've seen you associate with is yourself. And self-importance doesnn't count in the real world.

Have a nice day cruising the blogosphere.

G -Alci - West

Good:

It worked
(and as usual your plan didn't ).

Now, make sure you frame and keep that last post. Also , make sure to give Alci some credit instead of plagiarizing the ol' Greco- philosopher. He might file a claim for copyright infringement. SRO (not "SOR" ) to see that play out in court.

Bye-sky.

maestro

Stump, Inhofe didn't sign it

because he knows CO2 as a cause of climate change/global warming is purely a ploy to get people to buy into nonsense.

I hold no warm feelings toward Inhofe, but there is no doubt in my mind that Gore is as nasty a politician as anyone who ever had a PAC.

Nonsense

Ah yes, the vast conspiracy of scientists all banding together to pull the wool over the eyes of the public. So very, very believable.

Stump:

Did you read mopled's link ?

There are also others out there that easily refute the Climate change cult-istas claims.

Just because you are too dam cheap to buy a non -bike doesn't mean you have to keep relying on junk science and " grant $$$ addicted junkie scientists " so that you can then hide behind your Hummer envy.

Yeah

Examples please? Bet you'll find most of them are from the same sort of place where mopled gets the 'evidence' that Bush planned and executed 9/11.

G - Alci - West-abides

Gee, talk about loaded question /request and perhaps with a loaded pop gun ?

Sounds like a " When did you stop ____ing your _____" kangaroo court tactic (ie one used by the Leftie Intellectuals to prove thier cases ).

There's a web site ,ironically, by the same name as your banned TYEE colleague. Try to imagine who I am referring to and check it out.

At least mopled (and Truman on other topics)have evidence of an open mind. They can delve into a premise and try to support it, but not blind zealots who use such premises to support and hide behind a hell or high water political agenda.

The 9/11 ad nauseum conspiracy theory inevitably had people swapping links. On particular one in the most recent TYEE 9/11 go -around had an aftermath picture, prior to the debris clean up, and in my view cinched the premise that it was not a domestic conspiracy.

Its pretty obvious that you buy things over the Internet or on Infomercials G- Alci -West...you tend to believe whatever you want to believe as long as it meets your specification for one side of the political fence. Its like the chicken and egg argument, whichever came first, but in your case your beliefs came first, and you pick and choose whatever chicken sh!te fits your beliefs. (???)

Maybe these Climate Change cultistas should buy a Farmers Almanac, or apply their theories to it to help the farmers make the adjustments.

How can one not try to search for an alternate opposing view, one is bombarded by the Leftie-ista's in a daily dose of shallow subjective ranting and chanting that begins the start of the Big Lie = the small truth (?). Seems Leftie-istas make the best audio -visual media "bites", not a compliment. Mopled's link added some more info which I found added to the big objective picture, one of those simple , perhaps previously overlooked ,yet more potent points.

Otherwise, the Leftie punch party = same issues continually dusted off, not realizing that life goes on and will continue to go on. Identify what one can change and what one has to accept. You can't be that young G West, that you can see its deja vu all over again.

In the end, it's often the subjective Leftie church in need of more $$$ donation tithing to sustain itself.
Talk about belief (?)systems.

hummer envy

I must have $10k in bikes, tools, and bike-related gear, so I guess cheap might not be the right word. Economical, sure, most of the stuff will last for years.

Considering most of the anti-climate change 'facts' come from scientists and organizations paid a bounty to come up with data... that's a rich accusation to make.

Hummer envy. LOL.

Stump: Who pays the Climate Change Cultistas?

LOL boomerang:

So..."W-H-O" who pays the non anti- climate change scientists ?
Got an answer ?

PS so, you are on of those guys with a carbon fibre molybdenum/magnesium bikes....(and I am just talking about the back reflectors, not even getting into the rest of the mechanical entourage) .

Do you where those Segoi clown suits to lessen your wind resistance by a factor of .00001 ?.

All that depreciating asset, high insurance risk, and yet all the money that could have otherwise gone to far worthy causes than the "Church of Cheap-0 Stump". Don't you think of all the homeless etc. you could have helped ?

Does 10 K (or 10 G's, whatever), get you there faster? Does it help you fit in better with your West Side neighbours ? Cost of Jones -ism? (with the exclusion of Jim Jones?)

Kinda sorta possibly getting maybe disappointed in ya Stump...Hummer is next...happens all the time. Don't say I didn't warn you !

( personally , moi preferred the older models...cyclists didn't play chicken as much. Also you could short cut through those sissy curb-planters the Lefties worship during the full moon and not even get the mud flaps dirty, and in doing so interrupt the drug deals . )

Ah well....

Rich Coleman is wrong!

Except of course, he is wrong:
http://ecosys.cfl.scf.rncan.gc.ca/dynamic/carbon_e.htm

Last time I checked, we are a "northern climate"..........

zalm!

You're asking Cappy hard questions!

He won't answer simply because he doesn't expect to be living there, and doesn't give a fig about those who do.

For some arcane reason, my suggestion that CEOs and shareholders be required to live in the factories, mines, and O&G fields where their personal wealth comes from doesn't "resonate" with them........

maestro

I'm not going to repost all that garbage you've labelled for me up there. I read it and it is nonsensical. As I mentioned somewhere else, if you're not going to write something that's more relevant than random hits on the keyboard then you'll have to get along without my comments.

My mother taught me not to be rude.

The Canadian Action Party

The Canadian Action Party for truth We need to act NOW!
http://canadianactionparty.ca/cgi/page.cgi?zi
Is this what we want for our future?
Not me these are treasonous acts against US all CANADIANS.
As such WE should as Canadians bring a Class Action Suite against the traitors in OUR Federal and Provincial Buildings
This is very close to becoming real with TILMA April 01, 07
Action NOW!

RickW

As long as the trees are not burned in place and the topsoil is left relatively undisturbed then I think Rich Coleman is probably closer to right than wrong.

That being said I think it would be a real waste of good wood. The lumber could act as a carbon sink for many years if it is used correctly.

Stump just thought you might appreciate this

From today's Washington Post.

I'll just post a short excerpt - we apparently have length limits here now (3000 characters).

Paris Embraces Plan to Become City of Bikes

By John Ward Anderson
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, March 24, 2007; A10

PARIS, March 23 -- Paris is for lovers -- lovers of food and art and wine, lovers of the romantic sort and, starting this summer, lovers of bicycles.

On July 15, the day after Bastille Day, Parisians will wake up to discover thousands of low-cost rental bikes at hundreds of high-tech bicycle stations scattered throughout the city, an ambitious program to cut traffic, reduce pollution, improve parking and enhance the city's image as a greener, quieter, more relaxed place.

By the end of the year, organizers and city officials say, there should be 20,600 bikes at 1,450 stations -- or about one station every 250 yards across the entire city. Based on experience elsewhere -- particularly in Lyon, France's third-largest city, which launched a similar system two years ago -- regular users of the bikes will ride them almost for free.

"It has completely transformed the landscape of Lyon -- everywhere you see people on the bikes," said Jean-Louis Touraine, the city's deputy mayor. The program was meant "not just to modify the equilibrium between the modes of transportation and reduce air pollution, but also to modify the image of the city and to have a city where humans occupy a larger space."

The Socialist mayor of Paris, Bertrand Delano?, has the same aim, said his aide, Jean-Luc Dumesnil: "We think it could change Paris's image -- make it quieter, less polluted, with a nicer atmosphere, a better way of life."

But there is a practical side, too, Dumesnil said. A recent study analyzed different trips in the city "with a car, bike, taxi and walking, and the bikes were always the fastest."

There's more detail on the site, which should be accessible for a while, by clicking here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/23/AR2007032301753.html

No hills

Not one mention of the word hill in the article. Paris is flat and Lyon is mostly flat. Should work well in Ditchmond and Delta though.

snert

As long as the trees are not burned in place and the topsoil is left relatively undisturbed then I think Rich Coleman is probably closer to right than wrong

You mean, Rich Coleman is right IF the trees are burned and do not decompose. However, and working from the presumption that a forest fire doesn't wipe them out, the csrbon tied up in the trees becomes tied up in humus, in the bacteria that breaks them down, and the bugs etal, that munch on the bacteria, etc. This in turn creates a stable base for a subsequent forest, as humus retains moisture, something that burned over forest land cannot do. Check on the progress (or lack of) the regrowth in the areas of the fires of 2003.....

snert

You mean, Rich Coleman is right IF the trees are burned and do not decompose. However, and working from the presumption that a forest fire doesn't wipe them out, the csrbon tied up in the trees becomes tied up in humus, in the bacteria that breaks them down, and the bugs etal, that munch on the bacteria, etc. This in turn creates a stable base for a subsequent forest, as humus retains moisture, something that burned over forest land cannot do. Check on the progress (or lack of) the regrowth in the areas of the fires of 2003.....

Rick W

You're right but in this case I think there are two rights at least in the context of CO2 production and reuse only.

Of course that begs the question that if a forest fire does start in a beetle killed area should it be put out?

Good Question! But I would

Good Question!

But I would say that it shouldn't be "harvested" in any case, either for use as lumber, or for energy (a la Coleman), UNLESS biomass can replace it. To remove the beetle-killed wood without doing so, would diminish the soil for future growth.

G Alci West iabides

Like I care ?

answers

Do you?

My guess would be gov'ts and the public. Not too much in the way of ve$ted intere$t$ there.

Listen to yourself. Your attacking cyclists based upon their clothing? Now THERE's a good basis for a debate. What are you... 14 years old? Do I have on bell-bottoms during a straight-leg swing of the fashion pendulum or something?

Get a grip, a life, and a reality check Maestro. Your arguments don't hold water and you're drowning in the run-off.

later.

Gee Stump:

Good gue$$.

BTW who or what el$e could it be ?...You think these so-called independent researcher$ are indepedendently wealthy...?

$eem$ to be working...the funding tap i$ competing with the spring rain for record run-off.

OTHERWISE: Quit deflecting the question(starting to verify suspicions re: G Alic West iabides)....10 K for a bike etc. ? I have heard these Urban myth$....are you planning to enter the Tour de France...?

"See you at the Ritz"

bc dude

Oh how we lotharios pine for those debauched impromptu parties at the Ritz with the occasional aristocrat, the scions, the dilettantes and, of course, the debutants. We were all so blithely carefree.

Bring it on dude.

bikes (plural)

Reposted becuz apparently reading comprehenstion ain't your strong point Maestro

Did you have a question? I couldn't tell.

realisticman

What's this?

A sense of humour?

Or are you just thinking plaintively of a simpler, but equally confusing past:

And if you go chasing rabbits
And you know you're going to fall,
Tell 'em a hookah smoking caterpillar
Has given you the call.
Call Alice
When she was just small.

When the men on the chessboard
Get up and tell you where to go
And you've just had some kind of mushroom
And your mind is moving low.
Go ask Alice
I think she'll know.
When logic and proportion
Have fallen sloppy dead,
And the White Knight is talking backwards
And the Red Queen's "off with her head!"
Remember what the dormouse said:

Don't you wish it was still that simple sometimes?

I fed mine. Fed yours?

With the Spelling & Grammar police on Spring Break it becomes like Gilda Radner doing Emily Litella around here.

Right? You know you laughed
I heard you laugh. You laughed
You laughed and laughed and then you left
But now you know I'm utterly mad

And they're coming to take me away ha haaa
They're coming to take me away ho ho hee hee ha haaa
To the happy home with trees and flowers and chirping birds
And basket weavers who sit and smile and twiddle their thumbs and toes
And they're coming to take me away ha haaa

lyrics by Napoleon XIV

A question - realisticman

You have, I recall, a full dress version of the OED, correct?

Mine is only the 'Shorter'.

If it's not too much trouble I'd appreciate a transcription of the full (assuming it's not too long) entry for 'Chinaman.'

A friend is in the middle of a dispute about the proper (or improper) use of the term and its historical context. You may be able to help settle an international etymological argument.

Much appreciated – assuming of course you see this and aren’t unwilling or unable to respond.

OED

This is the one I have:

In 1971, the full content of the 13-volume OED1 from 1933 was reprinted as a Compact Edition of just two volumes.

Chinaman.
1. A dealer in porcelain.
1772, London Directory, Brown William, China-man., etc.

2. A native of China.
1854 Emerson, Lett. & Soc, Aims, Resources. The disgust of California has not been able to kick the Chinaman back to the home.

That's all.

Oxford's Dictionary of Etymology (1966) doesn't mention Chinaman but does say:
Chinese, pertaining to (native of) China. China, (Indian name) +ese. Earlier Chinnish and Chinian (16th century) were used; and in the 17th Century Chinenses (plural), Chinensian, Chinesian, Chino (Old Spanish), Chinois (French)...

1872 MEDHURST Foreigner in Far Cathay, John Chinaman is a most temperate creature.

Fowler's Dictionary of Modern English Usage, Oxford 1954 says; The normal uses are: A Chinaman (rarely Chinese); three Chinamen (sometimes Chinese); 50,000 Chinese (sometimes Chinamen); the Chinese (rearely Chinamen). Chinee for Chinaman is a Back-Formation from Chinese pl, & being still felt to be irregular, is rear except as conscious slang, but common in such use.

My Gods, G West

I love that tune.............

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Carroll
Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (January 27, 1832 – January 14, 1898), better known by the pen name Lewis Carroll, was an English author, mathematician, logician, Anglican clergyman, and photographer.
And I think it WUZ a simpler time then.....
http://www.lookingforlewiscarroll.com/carrollscreativity.html

Absolutely Rick W

Gracie Slick was something ... no question.

I was there when the Airplane landed at the Kerrisdale Arena back when....

Grace

She still is something

YEH

No question on that point!

I, think, I was there

I think it was '68 when I saw the Jefferson Airplane at the Avalon in San Francisco. Although, it might have been the Fillmore. Or was it Winterland? Wish I had the poster.

Ok Stump: $10K in what ?

I give up:

$10k is still $10k ( unless the "k" is a typo).

Given your posts, you are obviously a lawyer who cycles to work, and with a preference to focus on class- action lawsuits related to parking tickets based on the Canadian Charter. You perform " pro - bono " work for Leftie cyclists (redundant).

PS I'll do a search for " Mssr. STUMP Q.C. "

I thought you had a question for me.

see above