Do't change that dial...THE LEFTIE HORDES are a-comin' !

Yeah:

I 2nd the motion!

PROBLEM: Blame the Gov't !

SOLUTION: More RED TAPE.

That'll make sure this never happpens again.

" The End "

( BTW Oh yeah, forgot we need an objective forensic investigation first, but don't let a little thing like that get in the way ).

Come on get it out

Oh look the privileged assholes with money to burn just gotta get in first with their cost effective bitching. I bet they have nightmares over the horror that red tape might possibly impinge on their future ability to squeeze profit out of the easily taken advantage of. Money grubbing scum is far too kind a label.

Blame the Government?

Blame the Government? Yes, Cappy I'm glad you finally see the light. Is it too much to ask to have seat belts for everyone in a van transporting workers to their jobs? And is it too much to ask for these workers to have some rights? Oh, I guess though only those who are supplying the jobs get to have rights.

Blame the workers!

Cappy, Clueless (when he appears) and Maestro, you got it all wrong. According to your social darwinist ideology it should be the workers who are to blame not the government. And if not the workers The Left. Right wing governments, corrupt politicians and corporations are never wrong, remember that.

G West.....er anarcho

G/Anarcho,

We are all fault from time to time - some choose to take responsibility for their actions, others don't.

I'm definately not saying blame the workers.

This just in:

Tally so far:

(3) Lefties

(unless they are doing a G West...then divide by 6 )

Respect for innocent people in a tragic circumstance

Let's discuss the issue dudes or shut our pie-holes.

Three people are dead through no fault of their own. Some respect please.

Haven't weighed in yet Cappy

Doing some research. You and maestro get your act together - don't forget that Van, when it was inspected, had two seatbelts in it...and no wooden benches.

You'll have to contend with the fact that the vehicle was inspected as a 'bus' but didn't meet the GVW characteristics for that category.

And that, as a result of spot-checks yesterday, roughly 50% of farm vehicles stopped yesterday were not in compliance.

I think that's part of the government program of 'self-regulation'.

An enormous success.

Self-regulation

This tragic accident is exactly why we shouldn't trust the private sector to self-regulate. When it comes to making an extra buck, too many employers look the other way and hope for the best. The growers and contractors that aren't cutting corners should be welcoming government inspections in the industry. These incidents give a bad name to the whole industry. Obviously, the goal should be to make sure this doesn't happen again.

Quit the censorship rant = plug THAT piehole SVP

Let the comments unfold.

Thanks.

It would be nice

if the comments related to the story.. for a change. Can you manage that?

To return to the issue, this is another example of how unions and collective bargaining remain a necessary part of our economic system, so that workers who don't have full knowledge of the labour laws can have someone to help them demand that which they deserve... in this case, the same safety equipment that anyone else riding in a passenger van would have.

plug that piehole

When you post like an a-hole maestro, don't be too surprised when others tell you to shaddup.

BTW be very careful or you'll reach your daily "lefty" quota by noon.

Now really, you got anything useful to add, or do you just want to continue down that slippery slope into that dark hole occupied by cappy, ronny erwin, et al.

Welfare or EI scammers

Now that the police know who was on the Van they should check the names against welfare or Employment Insurance recipients to see how many of they were scamming the system.

It is very common for EIs to collect while they are being paid cash to work in the fields. The government knows and tolerates it since they do not want to be accused of discrimination against one ethnic group.

And as for regulation...If they did not want to get on the bus they shouldn't have...

We could pay them more

Well we could as a province, make a moral decision to pay farm workers more. We could ask the feds to put tariffs on imports that compete with local produce, organize workers and pay them the same as, ummmm, say secretaries. The cost would be way higher produce prices in the stores. Then we could could get another story on the poor starving welfare recipient who can't afford decent nutrition.

Someday we will all take a basic economics course on the theory of marginal pricing, and learn why some things like food, while vital are nonetheless priced low because of the huge markets for them drive down prices for the consumer. Good for buying apples and hothouse red peppers, not good for the workers.

The questions go a little bit beyond supply and demand. How do we evalute the 'worth' of a job : what bosses/ buyers (people) are willing to pay or what workers (also people) are willing to work for? Who gets to make that decision? How do we evaluate the reasonable price for a product if the market isn't going to be that mechanism? It is easy to say pay them more, give them more power, but the wage increases get passed along to both the rich and the poor.

That said, requiring seat belts isn't an imposition it is a pretty basic issue of respect for the safety of others. Those women deserved better from their employer, they also deserved the information that they had the right to say no, I won't go without a seatbelt, and then take the company to the labour board.

flattax

You sir are incredible.

This is from an earlier Tyee article on this subject:

From March 3, 2004.

Later on in the same article I found this:

Been a great success hasn't it?

Does the cheap food manage to get through that wall you've constructed to protect you in your million dollar home there in West Van?

You might want to remember that other people like to eat too.

It's obviously quite some time since you've actually done any real work, isn't it?

flattax

If farm-workers had to be educated in all aspects of highway regulations none of us could afford fresh veggies. It's the duty of government to ensure laws are obeyed. That's why we have inspectors.

Further, even if they were scamming unemployment, it's got nothing to do with this issue. Certainly no one would suggest that's OK, but it has nothing to do with workplace safety... and perhaps if these labourers were paid a reasonable wage this alleged fraud might no longer seem so attractive.

We can't pay more...

I don't understand how this is the government's fault. The regulations were there, but businesses, the employees and the local police chose to look the other way...

You can't pay more Bobbi! Farms can't operate without cheap labour. People need cheep food - they operate in very difficult circumstances. Farm owners are not the wealthiest of the wealthy.

There are immigrants willing to get their foot in to this great country by accepting a job like this for a couple of years. What we really need is to bolster this transient work program with Mexico.

The Mexicans are great! The province, farm workers and the Mexican government should work together to set up a temporary work program. Set up residences, provide food, etc. and have these guys farm the land.

Everybody wins! They get 10x the wage they'd get in Mexico and can return home with a boat load of cash. Food remains affordable and safety issues are resolved!

Cappy

That's the problem with you. Nothing gets through your protective carapace.

Your supposition is wrong. You need to start reading something other than the Wall Street Journal and the Report on Business.

Why not start with this:

http://pcerii.metropolis.net/WorkingPapers/WP04.04.pdf

Yes all those arguments

Yes all those arguments about keeping wages low so that we can still screw the rest of the world. Henry Ford was told he would bankrupt his company if he went ahead and paid his workers a decent wage. Well it didn't work that way but others like olds lost there companies because they tried to operate the old way.

Master UBI(quit owe us) WON KENOBI

Master:

Have thine lowly minions displeased thee ?

The only pie hole I said to cork was the censorship one.

Otherwise " May the Pie Hole be with you " .

(....that should get the Leftie quota up before Noon at warp speed)

I'll comment later if " Master Pie Hole " feels the lowly minions are worthy. The rest of us could care less.

Many of these TYEE Topics end up as another excuse for another Leftie illogical ,ideological, UNpragmatic
rant, just Fill -in -the- Blank ______.

" May the Leftie Farce be with you..." (but not us)

sure we can blame gov't

Part of the government's duty is to ensure the laws it passes are enforced. If a gov't passes laws and doesn't enforce them it's worse than no law at all. As citizens we expect our gov't to do their job... it they pass a law or enact a regulation, we should be able to feel confident they plan to enforce it.

As someone who touts greed as an over-riding human motivator, it would seem obvious (to me) that you'd make sure there were mechanisms in place to counteract this inclination where it presents a risk to human life.

Like collective farms do you?

It's kind of funny to hear a guy called Capitalism advocating for the past practices of Soviet Russia. I guess we'll be calling you "Socialism... Sometimes" now?

Then again, maybe your reference point is pre-Civil War America... or even the fuedal system.

Perhaps suggestions more recent in origin might be more helpful?

Dearest Maestro

I'll retort and let you get in the last laugh, and I'll bow to you level as well...

I K-N-O-W Y-O-U A-R-E B-U-T W-H-A-T A-M I?

(see, I know how to use the caps lock and put unnecessary hyphens between letters too.)

Wow, flattax!

flattax: "And as for regulation...If they did not want to get on the bus they shouldn't have..."

Wow, that is a pretty callous statement after three people died. So, you blame the hardworking farmworkers trying to be productive and put food on their families plates. Do you have any understanding what exploitation is?

The blame game is easily played. The correct thing to do now is to put measures in place so farmworkers are transported to work safely. Additionally, people should think about if they really want to create two classes of people in this country. Treating migrant workers with different labour laws is simply unethical.

flattax

"It is very common for EIs to collect while they are being paid cash to work in the fields. The government knows and tolerates it since they do not want to be accused of discrimination against one ethnic group"

I seem to recall a couple of cases where this happened, but it was the contractor that was running the scam, and the workers didn't receive the proceeds.

If this is "very common" as you state, then you should have no problem giving us some examples. Which companies, when, and which branch of government is tolerating your specific examples? It should make interesting reading.

a pocket full of posey

"A Society that is in its higher circles and middle levels widely believed to be a network of smart rackets does not produce men with an inner moral sense; a society
that is merely expedient does not produce men of conscience. A society that narrows the meaning of "success" to the big money and in its terms condemns failure as
the chief vice, raising money to the plane of absolute value, will produce the sharp operator and the shady deal. Blessed are the cynical, for only they have what it
takes to succeed." --- The Power Elite by C. Wright Mills

Quote:"It is very common for

If it is so wide spread as you claim then the Liberals should do something about it shouldn't they? I mean, they've had six years and all.

Attempt at Humor...

...having been unsuccessful at jumping the English Channel carrying 40 pounds of bricks, "Ron Obvious" bounces right back with another impossible stunt. This time "Ron" will attempt humor. Warming up his voice box, and off he goes:

Can you say crash and burn!? But don't worry, nothing stops his dogged determination. Not one to give up easily, I'm sure he'll attempt the stunt of humor many more times... Just watch and see!

about seatbelts

Farmworkers are not the only ones who could get injured riding on a small bus!

Daycare centres on occassions hire buses to take the kids around, and it is not possible to rent a bus that has any seatbelt installed!
Now, Imagine if it was a busload of small kids in that accident, and imagine the uproar!
We definately have two standards in this province as to what we take seriously.
Now maybe the government might consider a requirement that ALL mini-buses should have seatbelts

U-b-i-quit-ous:

I N-E-V-E-R said you were " all bad " nor " an all red Leftie " ...

PS see Y----O-U D-----O H-A---V----E U--S-E---F----U---L S-K---I--L-------------L-S.

See, I am truly blessed as well. Early on when dual TYEE identities were suggested,there was even a comment that I might be G WEST. Even G West denied it... but then he has no credibility(well, ok no credibility even back then before the G West quasi Jimmy Swaggart tear-filled "I have sinned" confession ) but even the most hard core Leftie wouldn't go near that insinuation Moi = G West....

PS ......I thought Lefties used their D*&%# to type in comments . Obviously you, Ubi, can use what God gave you and intended for use in order to communicate . Good for you. Hope springs eternal

BTW you aren't G WEST are you? He has ponied up a $100 REWARD on another current TYEE topic if ANYONE can prove he is other than Alciabides . That will buy a lot of borscht and vodka, comrade. ( Personally, I think G West is also = " assh_le" , thus we should all put in a claim for the $100 bucks.)

Club Pie -Hole sky

Well, you have heard how modern technology has allowed parents the ability to preview their childs gender prior to the day of birth. Many chose not to, and prefer to be kept in suspense till that day arrives.

C'mon Clubsky, you are almost out of Kindergarten...shouldn't you tell your parents by now which washroom you should "officially" be using ?

The worst obscenity ever posted on The Tyee

Three people are dead, a dozen others are injured, and this is what a fellow human being, flattax, wrote about them:

flattax

Now that the police know who was on the Van they should check the names against welfare or Employment Insurance recipients to see how many of they were scamming the system.

It is very common for EIs to collect while they are being paid cash to work in the fields. The government knows and tolerates it since they do not want to be accused of discrimination against one ethnic group.

And as for regulation...If they did not want to get on the bus they shouldn't have...

flattax I was going to say

flattax I was going to say something but I'll put you on my "don't read list" along with the few others.
We should maybe have a public inquiry into who actually owns these slave camps?

http://www.cfoss.com/

Trolls are trying to drown everyone out

Hmmm... it seems a trollish trend is developing by ideologues like maestro and flattax. They are attempting to drown out any rational discussion with racism and ditto-head idiocy. I can understand why maestro starts to squeal at any mention of eliminating his offensive and useless commentary. All it (maestro that is) can manage is nothing more than pathetic attempts at sarcastic humor, which consists largely of repetitive pigeonholing that has about as much levity as a lead balloon. Flattax is just plain hateful slime. It (flattax that is) is like the parasitic ooze that starts to develop on food when it's been left unattended to long, which is analogous to the state of worker safety in BC when our government doesn't enforce its own laws.

Quote: If it is so wide

Quote:

If it is so wide spread as you claim then the Liberals should do something about it shouldn't they? I mean, they've had six years and all.

Well...The federal liberals are always pandering to the cheap ethnic vote. They just let it ride as a cost to Canadians of themselves getting re-elected.

Yes, bc dude. put me on your do not read list. the truth hurts some people, especially if it is not a socialist feel good fallacy.

James Burns

Quote:

Flattax is just plain hateful slime. It (flattax that is) is like the parasitic ooze that starts to develop on food when it's been left unattended to long, which is analogous to the state of worker safety in BC when our government doesn't enforce its own laws.

Well...Looks like you are the one with nothing to contribute to this conversation. the first one to resort to name calling and insults is the one that has run out of rebuttals and has nothing to contribute.

remember, we all need cheap veggies, and if it take a few lives to get them then so be it. Keep in mind...you do not hear about all the dead workers in Columbia it took to get you Starbucks to you this morning. Only when it happens in Canada you complain. Try clamp down on worker laws here and we will be forced to externalize production and harvesting to third world countries with no workers rights. Is that what you want? The entire fraser valley one big rennie condo development?

ignore them please

Responding to the hateful trolls is pointless. I've been one of the worst offenders for taking the bait, but I urge one and all to simply ignore them unless they make a point relevant to the discussion. Free speech and contrarian views should be welcomed here... inane off-topic comments and self-indulgent "Look at me, I'm trying to be funny" remarks... not so much.

I know that will shorten the discussion some... After all, it's pretty hard to be against worker safety and enforcing rules to ensure such without looking like a callous idiot, but so it goes.

Seems to me one of the issue we must address is: how can we keep food affordable w/out relying on the exploitation of farm labourers?

Clone

Another elliot/maestro/woody clone... flattax is just Ron Erwin without the compassion.

Flatire...

You're a like a dog turd on the sidewalk, you make a bad smell and people have the unfortunate habit of stepping in you from time to time, carrying your repulsive odor around with them without knowing why the atmosphere is suddenly so disgusting.

All you've managed to demonstrate is that you are a racist sleaze, who is using the Tyee as a means to vent your hate.

The other liberals flattax

Flattax:
I believe BC Dude was referring the provincial Liberals, who would be responsible for policing welfare fraud.

It seems to me unemployment insurancee, being harder to get, and requiring X weeks of employment to qualify, depending on circumstances, would be much harder to scam in this instance due to the seasonal nature of the work.

Perhap you could explain how welfare and/or unemployment insurance fraud affects worker safety? it would be a point worth discussing in this thread.

Hungry?

All this talk of food is making me hungry Stump! Subsidies, heavy administration and deregulation have all led to higher costs not just in health care and education, but in agriculture as well. We now have so many feeding at the trough that it's a full time business just to assist people to get a license to feed at the trough. We have entire departments devoted to creating inefficiencies that waste money. The solution lies with education about growing your own food, getting exercise for your body and mind and building local markets in your community. Schools should all have 4H programs, plough the soccer fields, plant corn! Raise chickens. Something other than count chocula and pop tarts follwed by hours of video games... See, not complicated at all.

Worker Safety

Can you explain why this would be so? It seems (to me) there might be some middle ground between the two extremes that we could look for. If we can't grown our own food without killing people we have some real structural problems with the system that's in place and an even more urgent need to find a solution, because energy costs will soon make food importation a very expensive proposition.

Again, I would ask you... what point are unenforced laws. IMO, all they do is create an illusion of protection.

I'm a bad person

Because I'm still laughing that Charan Gill's organization is called Progressive Intercultural Services Society.

As for the van tragedy, I am reminded of being a young kid working on the farm. We thought nothing of riding in the back of uncle's pickup truck. I kinda doubt that there is a huge seatbelt awareness campaign going on in the rural Punjab. But this incident will have created a lot of attention in the community.

Hopefully.

Let me 1st say: I dislike Gordo & Co.

However, this vehicle passed inspection shortly before it crashed. The owners of the farm are to blame. They pay these people peanuts and put them into dangerous situations.

The gov't isn't to blame for this accident, however, they are to blame if they don't crack down on the owners of the farms and their overall treatment of their workers.

With all the hype about unsafe vans, the gov't is let off the hook because they can focus on the symptom (unsafe vans) and not the real problem (greedy, unscrupulous businesses and their overall practices).

I think

I think a kid in the back of a pickup truck of a private farm and a group of adults being taken to and from their work on a public highway by a labour contractor who charges for the commodity he is providing are very different things.

The Punjab has nothing whatever to do with it. Such irresponsible criminal behavior applies no matter who is involved, surely.

You aren't as offensive as flattax, yammer, but you're not that far off.

Is it just me, or

...did it suddenly get really boring in here?

it's just you

'nuff said.

Jimmy Flambe'

Is that ALL ya got...???

C'mon bro'..... Let er' rip !

You often come into these discussions with yer head up yer ass, and leave with your tail between yer legs.

==========================
PS : Yammer....

You are right, its running out of steam, yet,strangely, lots of Leftie Hot Air .

As I predicted, this TYEE topic, which is about an unfortunate tragedy, turned into an ideological rant by the usual sharp elbowed TYEE Lefties suspects. Only a few others came close to the more relevant details and observations to add to the real world - bigger picture view on this particular issue.

Maybe they'll get it as this discussion unfolds further, but I won't hold my breath.

Touche

Hahaha...
It's ok, Yammer- G West likes to play "comment policeman". Did you read his reactions to our comments on the "God keep our land glorious and child free" thread?

Here is what "TILMA" is all

Here is what "TILMA" is all about and are treasonous acts committed by our so called elected Federal and Provincial governments and as such we should be able to charge them as traitors of the People of Canada.
We are supposed to be in Afganistan to bring Democracy to the Afgans so we are at war and as such should be able to bring all those involved up on Treason Charges against Canada
http://stopthenorthamericanunion.com/

Jimmy's head

Hi Maestro:

Perhaps you could expand on your comments regarding Jim's head and how it relates to worker safety in general or this instance in particular? That is the topic being discussed.

thanx.

Hi Stump

He'd rather rant. Maestro that is.

It's all he's capable of doing.

Six months having passed with no evidence to the contrary I think we've seen all he's got.

Thanks for that Fii, Guess maybe your self-described maturity is somewhat of a work in progress. Perhaps that is something both you and yammer have in common as well. You both appear to be top quartile on the attitude scale though.

I'll keep it in mind.

shame on some of you posters

Honestly

This article and thread and some of the posters in it are a sad reminder of how messed up this world is.

SHAME on you who mock the dead, for you are counted among the dead in spirit yourself.

Shame on you who care not for the dead, your heart is as cold and has stopped flowing blood as the dead.

Shame on you who rant the same rhetoric no matter what the thread, lefties righties and aliases, your schtick is old and wornout.

It takes a minimal amount of effort to hit the send button, please apply yourself as if you have something new and genuine to contribute, sometimes it feels good just to write it out, you dont always need to hit send.

We will all be judged for every word that comes from our lips, or thought that comes from our hearts.

Sad as this story is, there are no scapegoats here IMHO. I remember thinking what kind of person would allow themselves and thier family members to ride in a work vehicle with no seat belts and wooden boxes. These people are greatly responsible for their own undoing. The owner is criminally responsible to have this vehicle on the road with only 2 seatbelts working.
This is a case of greed over common sense. on the part of the workers and the owner.

May God have mercy on us all.

G West

I know you're trying to be the antithesis of a racist but you are equally offensive with your stupid nit picking.

You aren't as offensive as flattax, yammer, but you're not that far off.

Cappy, Flattax, did either of you read this?

Are you both this fuking stupid as to comment on stories you haven't read?

Maybe if I repeat myself, they'll read it just once.

Deregulation has its... effects. Instead of loading up 10 farm workers into old, tired vans, we can get in 18! Aint Deregulation cost effective?
I'm surprised guys like Capitalism haven't yet commented on how much cost savings are realized with wealth "trickle down" economics benefiting us all, as corporations and other various slave traders make good chunks of $$$ that in turn, as Capitalist would say, gets recycled into the community. You know, good ol' trickle down economics. I'm hearing Captialism's voice now, saying "I'm opening my wallet wide to make room for the extra windfall that deregulation provides"!

Or maybe its the voice we don't get to hear (til flattax showed up). "People died? They weren't real Canadians anyways. Barely human. Canadians don't need to be regulated. They can regulate themselves. Who cares about a bunch of exploited foreigners exploited by their own from poor countries... look after the businessman and the businessman looks after you! My office is... uh... don't call us, we'll call you. Need to know basis, need to know."

Left, right, left, right.

I know this much about left and right. I believe it was Michael Moore who said, "how can just two parties, the Republican and/or Democratic party represent absolutely everyone's views when there are over 300,000 million people? It can't be done." If I support gay rights and gay marriage, does that mean I'm for abortions? If I support Christianity, does that mean I support globalization and war spending for war profiteers?

In this climate of politics, we lump everything together. Social issues with economical issues, with law and order issues, with military and foreign policy issues and on and on, and on... what it means is that the majority of us are likely to vote with internal conflict. Were not really all that happy with who we vote for (unless were blind cheerleaders that make ourselves obvious), just pick the lesser of all the evils. For people with common sense, we vote for people who oppose those who are in power, for power corrupts! (Unfortunately for BC, we continue to elect majority governments. Too bad.)

And when it comes down to simple left vs right... Geez, do we want to hand power over to corporations, or do we want to regulate them. Do we want foriegn owership, or do we want domestic ownership of resources and services... are we for environment, or against it? Are we for individual rights over the whole, or are we for the rights of the whole over the individual? Both? And what of the entity of the "individual corporation in court"?

If the left spoke clear and plain... and reminded people of what left governments do economically, at least with past successful leftist governments if we were even to flirt with such labels, left support would swell cause in the end, the choices in terms of economics are black and white.

Privatize vs Crown corps.
Left argues consumer price fixing and stability of essential services along with job security in tough times. Right argues inability of government to run corporations as effectively as they can (another way of saying "we want market share... all of it") Who do you believe?

Domestic ownership vs foreign ownership of resources and services.
Left argues a complete tax base drain of corporate profits delcaring taxes outside of our provinces and country. Right argues that capital is necessary. Who do you believe?

Regulation of business and Environments vs deregulation of the same.
Left argues the need to regulate business so that lame things like exploitation of labor, wrecked environments and greed don't wreck our nation. The right argues for deregulation to make money, the sooner the better. "Who cares about tomarrow, people gotta eat." Anyone missing any meals? Who do you believe?

And of course, to regulate and run crowns, we need larger government vs smaller government. Left argues a larger government so as to actually govern. Right argues smaller government to be a tax collector and do as little as possible other than to privatize (for directorships). Who do you believe?

Property rights for the homeowners vs property rights for business.

Investment in the local (municipal, provincial, federal) tax base with education and health, vs pay as you go.

Smaller military vs larger military

Peacekeeping vs invasive military exercises for globalization (corporate interests)

Human rights vs corporate rights...

Higher corporate taxes vs lower corp taxes.

Medicare vs no medicare. Regulation of insurance and banks vs deregulation (so U.S. mulinationals can dominate the Canadian market)

Its goes on and on, and its all about the money. Who do you believe, the guy who's sincerely looking out for the next guy regardless if the next guy isn't even fit to look after himself, or the old rich white guy who really too fat, slow and stutter stupid to realize just how sick he is and what he and his pilled out wife and silver spoon choked kids are going to inherit. Who do you believe?

In the end, in the final analysis, it smacks and reeks of U.S. political meddling and corruption with the right within this very country and to hear Cappy and flattax go on, its hard for me to view them as anything other than traitors and fools. Who do you believe... NCC prez Republican bought U.S. multinational sellout Harper and Campbell and their slowpoke cheerleaders? Or the ones who oppose crooked laws and crooked politicians who sell out this province and country to make a buck... Who do you believe?

gordon - you can't be serious

First you make a statement about people posting facile nonsense without thinking and mocking the dead....and then you post the sentence I've quoted above.

If nothing else illustrates an extreme sense of entitlement that certainly would.

I don't know how well these people even spoke English, or even whether they did at all. Suffice to say most people working piece-work rates in the agriculture industry aren't doing it because they have a lot of other choices. They got on that death wagon because they were in desperate need of work, plain and simple. Options was and has never been among the benefits this country gives many immigrants in that position. To suggest that the worker/victims and 'greed' have any currency in this sad situation is bizarre.

You ought to think a bit before you post as well.

snert??

What are you talking about?

I did not mention the Punjab, yammer did. I was merely pointing out what I took to be his inappropriate remark. Here's what he wrote:

I do agree that it's racist. Trying to lumber me with that label as a result of having pointed it out is none of: fair, accurate or amusing.

You might wish, next time, to engage your brain, and fasten your seatbelt, before you hit the keys.

Coming into these debates, as you so often do, in an attempt to leave les bons mots without actually understanding what's going on seems fairly typical of your contributions.

I suppose I shouldn't expect anything more.

Apologies for the slang

But these dullards are over the top. Wreckless and stupid. It makes me wonder if commentors like Capitalism, flattax and others aren't here specifically to agitate to the point of being majorly opposed at every turn... in other words, to do us a favor.

What's the expression? "Let sleeping dogs lay." or whats that other one, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"? Nope. Thats not it. "If you find yourself with a broken leg in a burning building, you walk out and don't feel the pain of a broken leg until you're on the street." Its time we woke up. A bunch of dummies are playing with fire, trying to break our legs while were sleeping. I know it might hurt a bit for us all to move or lift a finger but the alternative... anyone care to catch a ride to the field to work? Truck's leaving heavy... again.

Mabye the lefties (so called) in this country need to wake up with a stronger voice so that we will still have a country to be happy with and live in, before its too late... for the environment, the rest of life on this planet, for our children and the nation itself.

Things have to change... how many years must we wait to throw these crooks out of office (at least in BC)? Can't something be done sooner here at home?

Thanks out to Cappy and flattax for forcing us to take their ideologically racist and morally corrupt views more seriously. It is, after all, such individuals who likemindedly decide to support those who deregulate labor laws to such a point that innocent workers are now dying. "We don't need unions. We don't need labor laws or regulations. Business knows best." Thanks, guys, for all your support in helping us to watch history repeat itself with the same dullard destruction of peoples lives all over again for $$$. Thanks a bunch.

G West

I didn't "lumber" you with anything unless you choose to redefine antithesis. You are simply trying to minimize part of the real issue and turn the debate to your way of thinking by jumping on what you consider to be racist comment.

Jumping on comments is what you do best anyhow isn't it?

Well put - talk about double standards

Well put brain...if we don't soon wake up we might just as well stay unconscious because the result is going to be a bad dream anyway and it's probably easier to just sleep through it.

Next time someone posts on this thread that those poor people - Amarjit Bal, a recent immigrant from India dead among them, asked to be treated like commodities in that meat wagon last week - I'm going to say something really rude.

This situation has been brewing and worsening for a generation - all so folks in West Van and Spuzzum and Calgary can have cheap fresh food.

For a while it was herbicide and pesticide exposure; it's always been piecework hell and long hours; freedom from the protection of child labour laws and exempt the Labour Standards Act - we need a Cesar Chavez in this province.

Instead we have a 'ceo premier' who thinks a photo Op with the Terminator has something to do with the 'green revolution'; a supreme court justice who doesn't have the common sense to know that swearing like a navvy from the bench is a pretty bad idea and an Attorney General who tables and passes legislation that makes the public release of the product of a public inquiry (meant to get to the bottom of messes) only a discretionary thing.

Geez, if this isn't bizarro world?

No snert

That's your role.

If you actually had read all the comments here, you'd see I was in more or less from the outset. The one jumping in with something irrelevant and inconsequential at the tail end of things was you.

I was not nit picking.

Yammer was being nominally racist in his statement - not as overtly offensive as the other two miscreants - both of whom I wrote to David Beers about. Some people appear to revel in the fact that the enforcement of this place's rules is well-nigh impossible without a full time monitor. Nevertheless, if some folks are going to be banned for behavior that is a commonplace among other regulars here I think it's not unfair that these things are brought to the attention - at the very least - of other contributors. I certainly did not report yammer’s comment to the management.

You're not helping. In fact, you are the antithesis of a big help.

It makes me sick

I cannot believe some of the comments on this thread. That anyone would be so callous as to put the blame on the dead farmworkers is quite unbelievable. It really makes me rethink the supposed progress the human race has achieved. If we, as a society, produce people that think these are reasonable comments ... I don't know. Well it is eye opening. Maybe I just can't read the commentary anymore. The racist, right-wing crap is just too much.

don't quit, Chris H

Fight back, It can't possibly get any worse than this.

Hang in there.

The Brain

If people do not like their job they can quit. Yes, that is what I think of unions. Supply and demand should set salary levels. Minimum wage should be $.10 per day. yada yada.

I think there were less people killed in the fields this year than in the forestry industry. We do not even hear those stories, not as dramatic for the press. Yawn. Not as exciting as some immigrint getting in a car accident.

Heavan forbid...the third world nationals came here for better working conditions and we failed them! Makes good reading and moralizing.

And yes, the police shoud still check and see how many people on that bus are on social assistance.

Good night.

Ass backwards priorities.

40 years ago housing was relatively cheap, consumer goods like TV's and apliances were expensive and food took up somewhat more of the household budget than it does now. But everyone was housed and fed and there were twice as many farmers as now and farm workers were local people. Today housing is expensive, consumer goods are cheap and food is cheap. Real estate developers are making a bundle, China and Walmart are making a bundle, farmers are doing poorly and their workers even less.

flattax; where is your answer?

to my question:
If this is "very common" as you state, then you should have no problem giving us some examples. Which companies, when, and which branch of government is tolerating your specific examples? It should make interesting reading.

Here is your chance to prove that you aren't just a racist, elitist, moronic, idiot. Provide the specific examples to back up your assertion that it is "very common for EIs to collect while they are being paid cash to work in the fields, and that the government knows and tolerates it since they do not want to be accused of discrimination against one ethnic group."

Come on, let's hear it. Which contractors are involved, when, and which branches of government are tolerating the examples you provide?

flattax

You appear to be one of the more disgusting excuses for a human being I've ever encountered. Not as bad as the creature who tore up Rafe Mair’s column here a few weeks ago with a Holocaust denying anti-Semitic diatribe, but nearly so.

I reported you to the editor this morning. And I'll do it again if you post something as offensive as you did on this thread earlier today. I hope I wasn't the only one who did.

God knows why you haven't been either cautioned or removed. It certainly won't be because others here haven't had words less offensive than your hateful posts edited.

Flatulence-tax

Flatulence-tax, You are too much!
I have had arguments with intelligent people and difficulties getting satisfaction from them, but You are beyond any reach!
Stupid, inflammatory statements like the above belongs in a shouting contest between kids, not here!
So go pack your bags You are in the wrong territory, this site is for the real world and real problems!

TO: G West and your exponential # of ali-asses

Remember, Global Warming will assist you in keeping your "powder dry" and make it a lot easier...

.....but you have to " have some " FIRST.

Try again.

Ok Stump

This one has played out...the Lefties have ranted,...the Karl Marx / Vladimir Lenin blow up doll they hide behind has had much of its hot air vacated in to the real world.

QUESTION

Premise: OK So...what if the vehicle in question was a BC Transit Bus or say one of those smaller versions ie on a Handi -Dart scale?

Would the Outcome be much different, all things being equal ?

...all things being equal ?

Probably would have been different , maestro, that van was meant for ten people not 17. I'd think to carry almost double the people it would at least have to have stronger shocks, struts and tires,-probably braking system as well. BCTransit buses even the little ones have the appropiate parts. I'd also guess that they'd be heavier so less likely to to have flipped on to that cement divider. Remember its not speed that kills its those sudden stops.

To: THE TYEE Editor

It appears there is someone here attempting to mount a coup and take over your job as Editor of the TYEE.

Unless their resume' includes something remotely indicative of past experience as an Editor of some published material , and they can in fact do a better job than yourself...perhaps they themselves should be put into the penalty box, by you the Official TYEE Referee.

Maybe their hissy fit, whinning and tattle-tale-ing to yourself should ALSO be posted, as one of the usual suspects has indicated the filing of a COMPLAINT to you.

Perhaps that complaint sent to you should be made public for all to see. That way ,we, the TYEE "jury", can all see if the accuser's "expertise" has caught something that you, the TYEE editor, may have missed, objectively speaking.

(Of course, issues like credibility of the accuser will be taken into consideration in the proceedings, given the accuser themselves are a self -confessed fraud artist , guilty of misrepresentation).

Otherwise ,TYEE Editor, keep up the good work.

A little more information on this subject

This from Bill Tieleman's own excellent blog, which you can find at:
http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/

Here's what Bill posted just a few days ago.

I'm sure he won't mind my dropping it here for your attention today:

BC Liberals removed farm worker protection, tragic accident directly related

Farm protection laws taken out to pasture

Bill Tieleman’s 24 Hours Column
Tuesday March 13, 2007

By BILL TIELEMAN

Partnership Agreement helps protect farm workers ... Effective tomorrow, farm workers are excluded from hours of work, overtime and statutory holiday pay.

- B.C. government news release, May 15, 2003

The B.C. Liberal government should hang its head in shame for systematically attacking rules and regulations that protect farm workers.

Instead, and despite last week's horrific vehicle accident that killed three women farm workers, the Liberals deny the obvious - that their actions in support of farmers and farm labour contractors are directly related to this tragedy.

With the enthusiastic backing of the B.C. Agricultural Council, representing the farming industry, Premier Gordon Campbell's government has weakened previous protections for farm workers in almost every possible way.

One of the most misleading and outrageous actions was a Partnership Agreement signed between the government and the Council in May 2003 that resulted in what the Council called "Positive Changes in Employment Standards Act Regulations" in a memo to members.

Those "positive changes" include allowing child labour - letting 12 to 15-year-olds to work with only parental permission; removing farm workers from hours of work, overtime and statutory holiday pay provisions; and reducing by up to 75 per cent the bonds labour contractors are forced to post to ensure workers are paid.

Of course, it was a farm labour contractor with a history of violations whose overloaded van crashed last week, killing the three workers.

RHA Enterprises Ltd. had previously been found to have operated without a farm-labour contractor licence. They are currently licensed.

But the agreement between government and farmers states that: "The B.C. Agriculture Council and its member organizations agree that they will not support or condone the utilization of unlicensed farm labour contractors."

Rainbow Greenhouses in Chilliwack, where the farm workers were headed when the tragic accident occurred, is listed as one of "our growers" on the website of the United Flower Growers Co-operative Association, which signed the Partnership Agreement.

What's more, RHA Enterprises Ltd. has also been found to have failed to keep proper records and failed to register a vehicle in 2005. The company was fined $500 per violation.

B.C. farm-labour contractor vehicle accidents are all too common - and avoidable if basic safety rules were followed.

On July 13, 2003, farm worker Mohinder Kaur Sunar was killed when the van she was going to work in, carrying 19 people, had a tire blow out and crash on the Trans-Canada Highway.

A coroner's report said the government should review the Motor Vehicle Act, in particular to clarify the rules surrounding the use of seatbelts for passengers in vans and buses. WorkSafe BC said the same thing.

But it wasn't done. And once again, the provincial government's refusal to protect farm workers means more lives lost.

There's also a nice update on the Premier's California sojourn, if anyone takes the trouble to click on that link....

Blonde PitBull

Good points:

At least someone is doing some objective analysis, Kudos !!!

As I said at the start, how this TYEE Topic discussion ultimately unfolded was predictable, almost formulaic. The venting is " Petering -out "...and some are " Peter - Principle-ing " out as well. (modern version of the Darwin Society )

Gotta run, I wasn't kidding about a busy morning in our last discussion. As I feared it's gonna be a rainy day, but we volunteers gotta perservere like the Post Man/Woman ...I'll be baaaccckkk.

(To be continued).

The bus

Not to mention Transit drivers undergo some training before hopping behind the wheel. Having passengered on a few white-knuckle rides with supposed class 4 licence holders, I'd suggest more driver training in addition to more vehicle inspections might have a positive effect too.

Blaming these victims is easy. If they came to Canada and sat around on welfare, they'd be bums right? So, they get one of the few jobs available to them... and now they are supposed to quit because of illegal work conditions. Conditions that in all likelihood they don't realize ARE illegal... because there's little attempt to educate (recent immigrants OR long-time citizens) as to what the workplace regulations are.

Destitute if you don't... dead if you do. Some choice. Welcome to Canada.

Speaking of which... let's all criticize immigrants for wanting to bring relatives to a country of wealth and opportunity, for paying more than lip service to so-called family values.

So, unless you can tell me which animal represents your clan... and you can trace at least one branch of your family tree on this continent back to the big Flood, don't even get started on the immigration issue. We're all from somewhere else originally.

Chris H wrote: Quote:That

Chris H wrote:

Unbelievable? Neither unbelievable nor unprecedented but completely congruent with the dominant ideology they espouse.

Michael Burgess notes: "The sociopathic soul of capitalism lies in the shotgun marriage of money to progress."

Michael Burgess again: "It's an interesting fact, not appreciated nearly enough, that the notion of "progress" first arose in Western Europe in the 14th century."

Read his essay here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/articles/01/08/31_times.html

I'll drink to that. They deserve a good belch.

Its all about the money

http://www.fin.gov.bc.ca/ocg/pa/05_06/PA_2006_Debt.pdf

This is what its about, folks. Oh, the right has its racists and its gun toters and its religious nutters and its war mongers, but aside from the flat taxers of the world its about the money.

Page 13 to 15 on this link is highly revealing, and note that when the Campbell goverment came in, the greatest tax cuts to government spending occured pre 2002, when Campbell took over in his first year of power. Everyone say hi to a rightwing goverment's numbers.

Highlights over 5 years include:

- Population growth in the province increases by 200,000 people. (tax base expands 4% by pop)
- Provincial GDP increases from 133.5 billion to 165 billion bucks.
- government spending drops by 2 billion
- BC gas and BC rail, both money makers, are sold off.
- Government spending decreases by 2 billion from 2002 to 2006.
- Provincial debt remains flatlined at rougly 36 Billion over this timeframe.

The big question is, if GDP increases by 32 billion dollars from 2002 to 2006, this province should see some money for it!!!

Where is the money?

Show me the money!!!! Where the hell is the money??$$$ Where is it?

Our provincial debt hasn't decresed any. Our government spending sure has, and social housing has taken hits full on. Our apprenticship programs in trades are non existent, BC gas and rail are no longer, our cost of living will go up for it, and while talk of health and education has gone up, its gone up 3 to 5% a year. Everything else in government spending has dropped. Page 13 to 15 tells it all.

So where is the money?

CORPORATE TAX CUTS AND TAX CUTS TO THE RICH

We can include the continued wholesale selloff of BC's resources to U.S. multinationals with this stutter stupid ideology.

That's where our big commodity windfall went, folks. To the rich, a good chunk of them not even from this country. And all the while, the rich get richer, and the poor stay poor and the rich whine, "the poor just leach of the system. We pay for their poverty. Why support a bunch of lazy no good for nothings..." well, you've all read flattax's posts. All just inflammatory rhetoric that Nazi's used in their day. Ramblings of a nut, and when someone tries to show guys like that their face in the mirror, they find a yes man buddy to agree with them soon enough for they are actually as common as their intellect. Try to reason, try to make sense, and the wolf pack mentality kicks in. Ed Deak's quote to sum up the Nazi mind says it best... "if you don't understand them, hit them with a chair.".

Regettably, flattaxers are far too common. But like I say, get rid of the racists, and the gun toters, and the war mongers, and the wife beaters, and the religious nutters, and what you have left is the rich walking away with the money. You have the Capitalists of the world saying, "don't question. All is well".

32 billion in extra revenue in comparing 2002 to 2006 alone and the Provincial tax revenue, government spending on administration, services and social programs has accually dropped, and our provincial debt remains the same, thanks to tax cuts from Campbell. These should have been glory years. Instead, its subpar with ugly hangovers of ineptitude and scandal for the next gov to inherit.

Its nothing short of perverse, rich white guy syndrome greed.

And, talking about double standards

There's an interesting transcription of the way the 'peoples' government' in Victoria has been handling this particular case in the current sitting.

You can find the relevant debates in Hansard or you can get them - with some interesting commentary attached, here:

http://houseofinfamy.blogspot.com/

driving skills

Hey - why is everyone concentrating on how people got thrown around after the accident happened? Has anyone thought to ask, why it happened in the first place? Does the driver need a test? Is she good enough on the road to chauffeur around 16 other people? Forget the politicking and concentrate on the problem-solving, eh?

If Cappy/Maestro/et al are true to form,

...then there should be no speed limits, no controlled intersections, in fact, no rule of law, and everyone can just take responsibility for their own actions.

Guess those barons in England back in King John's time must have been lefties......

dorothy

According to Cappy et al, anybody should be able to drive anything, with anyone, and anywhere....because we all just have to take repsonsibility for our own actions.

Guess those dead and injured workers should have taken responsibility for their own actions and not got into that van.........

Lawyers too!

In a soceity that should be taking responsibility for it's own actions, we won't need lawyers either!

(wonder how many times maestro-cappy cabal used lawyers in their life though.....)

What a lot of hot air in the

What a lot of hot air in the thread above.

Every time this (nasty personal feuds spewing into what should be thoughtful discussion) happens the Tyee itself loses credibility as a news source, in my opinion. Anyone considered that?

From the news photos I've seen of the crushed roof of that van, seatbelts might well have been a non-issue. But none of us were there, so we can't say, can we? That's what the RCMP and the coroner's office are trying to determine.

Having been involved in agriculture in some way or another all of my life, I'll have to say that things are not going well down on the farm province-wide, country-wide, and yes, world-wide too.

Thank goodness for BC agriculture & by extension BC grocery store shoppers that there ARE workers desperate enough for $$ that they will go to work regardless of squalid conditions & dangers - and no, many farm owners are not greedy overlord types - they're trying to make a basic living themselves in an increasingly unviable sector.

Farmers and farmworkers (and recent immigrants - my God! - some of you people are SMUG) have zero status in our society, and the dismissive comments above prove it - various people have basically said that the farmers are evil overlords and that the workers are either EI scammers or too stupid to realize their transport was unsafe.

You know, in the real world, people generally do the best they can with the situation they find themselves in. Farm owners scramble for the help they can get; farm workers put up with difficult conditions because maybe that job is their only option and they've decided that feeding their families is worth the discomfort and risk.

This was a tragic accident, and if it improves conditions for lower mainland farm workers maybe something positive will come out of it.

But it was just that - an accident. They happen all the time - to private individuals driving their cars, riding their bikes & crossing the street, for goodness sakes. Do we stigmatize the granny in the walker because she gets nailed by a transit bus - "Well, she didn't HAVE to be out there on the street trying to get to the grocery store - her proper place should be sitting in an old folks' warehouse waiting to die. Hey, maybe she was a welfare scammer - better check it out."

Ring any bells?

Quit blaming the victims.

let us VOTE

We have a lot of self-apointed judges here!
Why not let "we the TYEE jury" vote on which posters annoy us enough that we want to see them banned?

My guess is that a few posters will get a surprise at how they get rated.

g west and eight

quote from g west:

I reported you to the editor this morning. And I'll do it again if you post something as offensive as you did on this thread earlier today. I hope I wasn't the only one who did.

Looks like you cannot take an opinion different from your own. This is a typical strategy of the left. Do not counter the arguement, insult the person. In you case, you take it it step further, you actually attempt to CENSOR! You are starting to show your true colors. And as some one said, you degrade The Tyee.

answer for eight:

A good friend of mine, about 7 years ago, worked at the UI office for a year and was one of those people on the phone. She has lots of stories about the farm workers in the valley, people that pretend not to speak engish and scam the system. And how it was general knowledge that they were lying about not working but nobody was allowed to do anything. Of course I cannot identify her and no, this is not hearsay.

ron erwin er flattax

"In you case, you take it it step further, you actually attempt to CENSOR"

Hate speach is hate speach flattax. Blaming the victim and then relating it to their nationality (which you've effectively done here) and then saying "oh well" to the fact that a few immigrant workers loose their lives to keep us white folk in cheep produce, is hate speach. To hide behind the freedom of speach arguement is nothing short of cowardly and typical of pinheads such as yourself. So yeah, you should be muzzled unless you can come back with some reasoned arguements - i don't care if the premise of your arguements differ from mine, just knock off the predjudice. Even maestro (when he's not performing his stand-up material) can offer reasoned arguements.

"this is not hearsay"

Look up hearsay. Then look up fallacy (another term you used incorrectly on this thread). Anecdotal evidence does nothing to support your weak and hate filled arguements. So she knows for sure that they're pretending that they don't speak english eh? What a f-ing joke!

G West

I did not accuse you of jumping in but jumping on. Like I said, that's what you do best.

In this case the cultural background of the people involved is an integral part of the problem whether it is PC to say it or not. That in no way let's the Province off the hook for bailing on it's obligations, however.

There is far too much political correctness and not enough action in this matter.

Hmmm, if I state where a group of people come from that makes me a "nominal racist?" Get serious!

flattax

You might care to check your watch and your calendar.

What I reported to David Beers was something you wrote yesterday - to which I was far from the only person to react. My comment about this morning did NOT mean today. You'll notice my comment - the one you quoted from - was originally written some 12 hours ago.

I'm not trying to censor you. You ought have enough sense to censor the kind of comment you led off with here on Friday yourself. I was bringing what I took to be something that was in violation of the rules to the person or persons who enforce them.

Keep making racist and defamatory remarks about any identifiable group of people and I'll proudly do it again.

In addition, Shepherdess, I’ll gladly pay more for the produce of the hardworking farmers of this province any time – especially if it means the wages and working conditions of the people who play a significant role in the production of that food are treated more like people with agency and less like cogs in a despicable system of exploitation.

I happen to come from a farm background myself.

Can't you read snert?

Yammer was being nominally racist in his statement, in my opinion.

The implication of what he said about this accident was that it 'would be no big deal in the Punjab' - just like it was no big deal for him as a young person to ride around in the back of his uncle's pickup on the farm.

Did you actually take the trouble to read what he wrote?

I think the point I made was clear and should have required no more clarification – to either you or flattax. You might want, while you’re checking up, read some of the other comments about these, in my view, noxious attitudes.

This story is aptly named – about that I can’t see there is any argument.

Rick W

Now Rick..

Where did you get the idea I even remotely said what you implied ie That I would want no speed limits and no controlled intersections etc. etc. ?

Now really.

(BTW: You are one Leftie(?) I do like to read, you do appear to use all Lobes available and make good comments. Check to see if G West fingerprints are on your keyboard ).

RickW: re Lawyers

Not sure your point...but sure, we've accessed Lawyers.

However, I'll leave you with these thoughts:

(i)ADVISOR : " A Lawyer ?, why would you want a lawyer,you want to WIN, don't you ?"

(ii)It is perceived as the " Justice System " but its now the "Justice INDUSTRY".

(iii)Anyone that actually wants the Justice System best educate THEMSELVES about the Law. (At least via preventative measures if not a "cure").

PS If you don't like that advice,Best of Luck. " a fool and their........."

Cheers.

alive: (from the neck down only ?)

Sorry, but my comment (BTW : ..which you quoted without my notarized written permission) was along the lines of a complaint...ie "what is the complaint based on".

I read what I "think" the complaint is base on, and if one was familar with the APPROPRIATE LEGISLATION being applied (or via the usual Monster Loonie Raving Leftie wishful thinking applied)...the TYEE Editor apparently let it stand.

Why?...because it appears (surprise,surprise) that the comments do not meet that benchmark for what the complainant is alleging. The TYEE Editor "in all likelihood" knows the appropriate and applicable legislation.

HOWEVER: Now if you want to have the TYEE Jury stacked with Lefties..go ahead. Vote who you comrades don't like "Off the TYEE Island" then you Lefties win...and you can take turns impressing each other with the same old party line BS.

Ie you Lefties ALL agree .... WOW...gee Leftie paradise.

PS I give the TYEE about 2 weeks maximum before it pulls the plug aka BOOORRRIIINNGGG-sky

OK-sky?

Bye-sky

flattax

Not hearsay? I'm afraid what you provided is the textbook example of hearsay. Can you imagine yourself sitting in court and providing that sort of statement as evidence against a person being charged with EI fraud? You'd be shown the door quickly, if not cited for contempt.

Your comment last night regarding less fatalities in the fields this year than in the forestry industry is equally helpful, which is to say useless. There are about 35,000 workers in agriculture and about 100,000 workers in the forest industry, which is a more dangerous place to work by far. It would be surprising if the toll in the forests wasn't higher. In fact, in 2005 there were 43 deaths in the forest industry, which was almost three times the historical yearly average, and the press was not yawning as you assert.

In any case, one fatality is too many in any industry, and when you have a government that deliberately removes workers' protection legislation, orders less enforcement of what's left, and then ignores the recommendations of a coroner's inquest pointing out the problems they created by doing so, we have a duty to speak up.

You seem to think speaking up means uttering despicable statements including "some immigrint (sic) getting in a car accident."

Brilliant.

The Rules

Registration to this forum is free! We do insist that you abide by the rules and policies detailed below.

Although The Tyee will attempt to keep all objectionable messages out of the comments, it is impossible for us to review all messages. All messages express the views of the author, and The Tyee will not be held responsible for the content of any message.

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

The Tyee reserves the right to remove, edit, move or close the comments on a story for any reason.
8. What do I do if I find a post objectionable, or am being personally targeted?

Please email

and

immediately, with your contact information, and a link to the comment in question.

I found flattax's post yesterday "objectionable" and, in my opinion, "hateful". As such it violated the rules.

Therefore, I contacted the appropriate authority.

What happens next has nothing to do with me.

earth to dorothy

dorothy...this isn`t new stuff...for years these people were exploited and driven about ..not on sideroads and farm roads but on the main highways and freeways in modified thinskinned vans...this is old stuff..a lot of close calls and injuries from roll overs brought in some regulation to try and prevent just what has happened recently...three deaths and eight of the injured are in critical condition. Possibly eleven deaths..or permanent debilitating injury to those who God knows have a tough enough time
earning a living.

Now, click those little red shoes together and get back to Kansas.

from the hills above the old Mill,
bob the cat

POSITIVE VOTES" Mine go to Blonde PitBull,Dorothy and Sheperdess

Blonde PitBull, Dorothy and Shepherdess:

You have all made good points and more to the crux of the matter.

However, I don't think many others have read T-H-I-S TYEE article properly( which is assuming they actually have read it).

Perhaps they should RE -read it...or else read it for the first time ?.

BTW: Waaay back when, many of us had field /agri- work as one of our 1st paying jobs...that was very common for young people and new immigrants. Nothing much has changed since then, and I doubt much will change now or in the foreseeable future.

G West

You're in such a hurry to turn people in have a go at this individual. I've never seen such pure poison in my whole life. It contributes absolutely nothing to the topic. Seems this individual may want to read their own words.

It (flattax that is) is like the parasitic ooze that starts to develop on food when it's been left unattended to long, which is analogous to the state of worker safety in BC when our government doesn't enforce its own laws.

You're a like a dog turd on the sidewalk, you make a bad smell and people have the unfortunate habit of stepping in you from time to time, carrying your repulsive odor around with them without knowing why the atmosphere is suddenly so disgusting.

All you've managed to demonstrate is that you are a racist sleaze, who is using the Tyee as a means to vent your hate.

Oh look the privileged assholes with money to burn just gotta get in first with their cost effective bitching. I bet they have nightmares over the horror that red tape might possibly impinge on their future ability to squeeze profit out of the easily taken advantage of. Money grubbing scum is far too kind a label.

The enemy inside the gates....

The brain wrote:

These should have been glory years. Instead, its subpar with ugly hangovers of ineptitude and scandal for the next gov to inherit.

Really excellent comment above, The brain...and right on the money. ;-)

I think we can all fairly easily speculate as to culpability but with the passing of Bill 6, (that oh-so-craftily named Public Enquiry Act), finding out the exact Who, When, and How of anything - the all-important details of that conveniently obscured money trail, (whether it be about BC Rail, healthcare, the ALR etc.) has now become exceedingly difficult.

Which was precisely the point of Bill 6 all along.

....and bob the cat, your posts as always, insightful and straight from the heart....great to read you again. :-)

why not vote?

Maestro, terribly sorry that I did not ask your specific permission to quote you!
Please post your e-mail address and I shall be sure to ask you first, next time that I feel tempted to comment on your opinions.

About that vote: it sounds like your little scheme backfired?

You realize that your group is in the minority (even if you use up more space here), and suddenly to hell with democracy!

You only want a vote that you can be sure to win, is that it?

I do not particularly care to be branded as left or right, as I take an individual stand to every issue, BTW I am right-handed so lefty does not apply.

How is that saying again: “Jack of all trades, Maestro of none”?

snert

We obviously have different standards of behavior. I'd only note that I felt not all that different than whomever you're quoting there when I read flattax's comments - I just happened to express my disgust in a somewhat different and more socially-acceptable fashion.

Each to his/her own I guess. I think it was fair comment given the way this started and given the fact that some very powerless people are now dead and injured. But that’s just me.

I'm surprised you're not capable of making that kind of subtle distinction yourself.

However, not THAT surprised.

I'd like to hear what you have to say about Bill Tieleman's comments - the ones I posted earlier. Seems to me he's drawing a pretty straight line to the current government.

Any comment?

Or do morals go out the window for you when cheap food is in the balance too?

Maestro

You don't want government involvement (see 2nd post), but, according to the quote herein, you DO want government involvement.

Are you advocating a dartboard legal system........?

"Let sleeping dogs lie"

I just wanted to clarify that the expression is "Let sleeping dogs lie", not "lay"- from way back on this thread, and entirely off the topic- but this persistent grammar mistake drives me nuts:

'Lay' in the present tense must take an object, or it's being used incorrectly. Or remember this rule: If you can replace it with "put" it's ok. But "Let sleeping dogs put...??" does not make sense, does it?

Now, I must get back to working on my maturity, which according to G West- HE WHO IS PERFECT- is something I need to do. Tata.

Quite right, Lynn

Glad to have someone remind me of just what bill it was that the Campbell regime voted in to hide their own bad smells of Campbell corruption... bad old Bill 6. :-)

And if anyone remembers, its the same Bill with the same language that the crooked Devine government passed in their attempt to hide the fact that they stole hundreds of millions of Sask taxpayers dollars, leading to 14 inditements, 7 incarcerations and one suicide before trial of an MLA who dipped into the provincial Sask coffers for over 50 million on his own. By the way, all charged were all MLA's.

Pretty hard for us to not agree on the obvious, Maestro. This government is crooked.

And perhaps you should take some of your own advice. These links were previously provided on the Tyee, after all...

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/03/07/bc-van-crash.html

If you care to read the link, Maestro, I gotta ask... what company or contractor takes their seatbeats out of a van within a week of passing safety? Or gets their mechanic nefew or cousin to hold their nose and pass this vans safety inspection?

In any case, what contractor in their right mind cares about the safety of their workers either way?

There is no polite way of putting it. If the Campbell government hadn't changed the laws and laxed the enforcement of the laws that were left with worker transport safety in agriculture, this accident wouldn't have happened and if it did... people would have been wearing their seatbeats in a van that was properly certified and not crammed with 17 people instead of ten!

Does anyone with common sense not know how many seats a 10 seat passenger van holds? 3 bench, 2 front single seats... where did the other 7 sit? Or could they?

Its mindblowing to hear people stick up for the contractors in this instance at any time, including those who proposed the kind of legislation that paved the way for this kind of thing to happen in the first place. It reveals a great deal about their character, hero's and cheerleaders alike.

Why doesn't the left/right labellers just come out and say it again so everyone will be influenced by the power of suggestion just one more time... "the right can do no wrong." or "we did it for the best interests of the worker".

When this government is gone, fella's & gals, don't think for a minute that the RCMP won't be investigating the Campbell government and laying charges. Fact is, they already are being investigated. Basi Virk BC rail has proved that one in spades, if anyone is paying attention.

When this bunch of crooks is voted out, there will guaranteed be MLA's charged with misuse of public funds (a polite word for theft) and their "cheerleaders" won't be none to popular either. History, in case you haven't noticed, is repeating itself. You all had better get used to the idea regardless of which side of the fence you sit on...

Lorne McCuaig
Revelstoke

lynn

so good to hear you again..this place is so much colder (and stupider) when you`re not around...but I do understand why...bit of a grindstill huh? A lot of angocity and angocidness.
Did I read somewhere of a Blog ?.I don`t want to say to much here but hope somehow I do learn the address when it comes online.

Fii

Good observation. I must confess that since lie has multiple meanings, I don't won't to imply by mere chance that dogs that sleep are in fact, liars. :-)

Regards,
Lorne McCuaig
Revelstoke

Angocity... angocidness where is my...

Dictionary! Mabye I can find out what these words mean online, lol.

Good to hear from you too, bob the cat.

Fii - ?

Where, my friend, did I ever imply I was - perfect - that is? I try to fight, as fairly as I know how, for what I believe in.

You should too.

My view.

I'm sorry if I said anything that was hurtful.

perfecto

I was perfect for a time ..but I made a mistake once..I think it was 1957..or was it 1958?

Brain...good to see you..wow McQuaig..love that name. Thats gotta be from way up in the Highlands.

Coincidence...just before coming to the site just now I was working on a photo of an old dog sleeping with a large black cat laying beside him with his head on the dog. The dog was bathed in a dappled light and the cat in shadow. I was thinking.."Let sleeping dogs lie"...but decided on " One day that dogs gonna sleep in the Sun"..

Strange how it works sometimes...

Good to read you again McCuaig

bob
(I tried to get my handle changed to " bob the hep cat"..but no go..)

Eric Pawlett
Squamish

alive:

No, you can just ask permission over THE TYEE. The others can be the witnesses.

BTW: Any complaints can be sent to

Otherwise, I guess LOL isn't what I thought it was an acronym for. It actually stands for Lathered Obfuscating Lefties.

Right Handed?...OK.....most Lefties are ambidextrous...hair is on palms of BOTH hands. Ultimately, they end up typing with their fingernails.

To: The brain

Did you happen to see the ICBC prop that was used shortly after the accident to explain what happened ?

It was shown on the Evening News...GLOBAL TV .

Otherwise, Cmon Brain...I've found you often are far more objective....your de facto correlation that this Gov't (or even the NDP ....though it pains me to even say that), could have prevented or lessened the tragic impact of this accident is really a S-T-R-E-T-C-H.

G West

Yeah, I have morals and a few scruples too but that is neither here nor there in this argument. There are 4 parties, 5 if you want to count the general public, that are involved in this issue. The one with the most power and the one that obviously dropped the ball is the current excuse for a government, no doubt about it.

Parties 2 and 3 are the labour contractors and the labourers themselves. With these two groups the cultural background weighs heavily as to just how these parties deal with each other. The contractors are responsible for the way they treat people and just because the government yanks some farm labour protections doesn't give them the right to break the law. The labourers themselves should understand that they do have rights albeit not as many as in the past but they must pay them heed.

The last party is the growers themselves and although they are only responsible for the conditions on their property they have an obligation to see that the labourers are not being abused or treated in an unsafe manor when the workers are delivered to the site.

It would appear that party 1 has allowed parties 2 and 4 to not live up to their obligations as far as party 3 is concerned.

I have no personal objection to seeing farm labourers (no matter where they are from)paid at least minimum wage and this should hold true across the country and not just in BC.

They should also have access to good clean sanitary and eating facilities where ever they are working.

Those that handle pesticides should be fully qualified in their use and disposal.

Those that handle farm equipment should also be eligible for further increases in pay.

If these measures result in increased cost to the farmers that make it hard for them to compete then in-season-only tariffs could apply to the produce.

It's not the red tape that is an issue here but how it is used or abused and in the case of this government, neglected.

Now if you could stick to the issue at hand instead of jumping all over obviously silly remarks and throwing in snide comments because it makes your sagging ego feel better you might just be able to write a meaningful book someday. If you reference Frank er... I mean James Burns lots it should sell real well 'cause it will be 'R' rated.

Fii

Thanks for that. Now maybe you can tell me how to differentiate between a sleeping dog just snoozing and one which is lying between his teeth............

What about Whitey?

As mentioned upthread, the forestry industry has an abysmal safety record. Would you say that the cultural background of the parties involved is the reason for that? Or would it be more accurate to suggest poor decision-making (be it on the part of bosses or workers) is colour-blind?

From the bob the (hep)cat dictionary, the unabridged version ;-)

"Angocity... angocidness"... lol...I loved that one , too. ;-)

I'll let you know for sure about the albatross... I mean, the blog, bob the cat. It's still very much a flawed work in progress, much like myself. I think I may have committment issues. ;-)

Fii, thanks for that tip... it's always great to read you...my very favourite post of yours though (which I have passed along to many friends) was your wonderfully tender and true story from a few years back about the mouse and the sticky tape.

One of the best Tyee comments ever.

Baloney

Morals and scruples ARE everything in this case. Period.

The government is the main problem, as the material from Bill Tieleman and previous articles published here at Tyee attest. They are supposed to lead. They were elected to protect the lives and the interests of all citizens - not just the ones who live in highrise condos on False Creek. Wake up man - this is not a question of competition and subsidies and tariff regulations and competitiveness - it's a question of innocent people's lives and it's a question of taking unfair advantage of the weak and the powerless. Folks of all colours and sizes can and do take unfair advantage. The nationality of these people is of no importance - it's their humanity that is important. That's the MORAL issue. All the rest is fluff. You either believe they share fully in our humanity and care about their lives or you don’t.

But more than that, anyone, and I mean anyone, who does not respond to the kind of thing that was said here yesterday is as guilty as the party who said it. In my view – these are the kinds of things that, when they come up for discussion, are black and white – the grey areas ought to just disappear.

And for anyone to equate the value of 'cheap food' as a criteria upon which to mediate fair treatment for agricultural workers as a class - something this government has failed to endure, in fact they have behaved in the opposite way - is even worse. Worse because they had both the power and the opportunity to act and they have failed to do so. Again in my view.

Now, I think I pointed out those things and I think you came around here very late in the day and tried to say something critical of what I did. I say this is not a nice debating issue

Cultural background has bugger all to do with it. We live in BC. How other provinces and jurisdictions behave is equally irrelevant. We're all Canadians here and the idea that some Canadians in this province should get short shrift while others get the golden teacup is abhorrent to me and it ought to be to everyone with a notion of what real moral and ethical behavior is all about.

Unfortunately, instead of recognizing their failings in the debate in the Legislature the other day, the Campbell government retreated into their usual spin cycle. Looking, as they are always wont to do – to pass the blame along to someone else.

I'm tired of it and I think a lot of other British Columbians are too.

Period

errate

That's has failed to 'ensure' not endure in para 4 above

The job of the Opposition

Our legislature of late is telling us clearly and in the boldest of terms where the power of the people is...and it is certainly no longer within the legislature itself. It should be but it is not.

The legislation introduced is intentionally dismantling the power of the people, which is democracy itself.

So we now have legislation like Bill 6 that is all too easily passed with a majority government and the help of a corporate media intent on propping the present government (and their shared self-interests) up by looking the other way.

The Opposition has yet to realize it must tack a new course. The winds have changed and they are trying to stay the same old, same old, course of opposition...one that is increasingly ineffective against the sly manipulations of a corrupt government. Sadly, their present leader does not seem up to the task.

The Opposition must find a way to engage the public....and that will take real leadership and courage....plus some original thought and imagination in order to effectively mount a bold means of opposition.

Clearly the leadership to engage the public is not there.

So now the people of this province must ask what is the next step?

Stump

"Colour" has nothing to do with the issue and contrary to what G West thinks I feel that culture is a contributing factor.

These are unsophisticated people we are talking about. They are not necessarily familiar with our cultural values and are likely to make decisions based on their previously learned values.

I feel that the contractors should be fully licensed to the extent that they are made aware of their responsibilities towards the labourers. If this is the case already then it should be tightened up more.

It is our cultural values that continue to allow the forest industry to be as unsafe as it is but in the case of the farm workers I believe it is their cultural values that contribute towards the problem at least in part.

Our cultural values contribute to a lot of problems in today's society. Don't write off the effects these values can have on decision making.

"We have met the enemy and he is us."

Pogo

G West

Sir, you have tunnel vision.

We Free People for how long

We Free People for how long have got to bring this gang of gordo's into the public eye the sooner the better.
How I don't know "The Common Ground" is a great read, I don't know about "The Georgia Straight" they used to be a paper for the working public but I think they sd ot for a new building

The families met with the

The families met with the Federation of Labour and a list of recommendations were the result. Those recommendations were taken by family members and Jim Sinclair of the fed when they met the Labour Minister and The Agriculture minister. The Ag. Minister mentioned in the house that the meeting had been held. Oopposition memebers pressed to have them used, the Ag. minister waffled all over the place. I'd post the report but its faily lenghty.
It ends with this paragraph.

The Federation is committed to carrying on this fight until basic rights to safety, dignity and economic justice are
achieved for farmworkers. The government of the day must understand that not only is there a problem, there are solutions.

Sir you have no vision and questionable humanity

And this affects their HUMAN RIGHTS - what planet does a snert come from? Sounds a lot like some people are more equal than others my friend.

The existence of cultural differences and innocent or unsophisticated individuals is all the more reason why those who take advantage of them and those who look the other way and cater to their friends instead of ensuring fairness, equity and safety are culpable – and those who excuse such behavior are blind..purposely blind.

This government not only inherited problems it exacerbated them and, through lies and pretense, made things worse - as reported above, in my view.

Further, not a man jack or woman among them has the intestinal fortitude to acknowledge their complicity and their double standards. Shame. Further shame on any one who pretends to excuse them.

Amen DPL - I too read the record.

Another wee item to watch for in the coming days will be the continued flailing of Advanced Education Minister Murray Coell - clearly unable to deal with the disintegration of the degrees for sale scandal in this province he is crying out for help and I don't think there's anyone on the government side that can help him.

He's about equal to the job of cutting ribbons - administering this government's crazy quilt of private degree mills is way too much for his limited intellect.

Keep a close eye on him too dpl.

You'd better take up brail.

G West

Funny how you've now twisted this into a "human rights" issue. Nowhere have I indicated that they shouldn't be treated properly. You and Chubby Checkers have something in common.

double baloney

This is what YOU wrote:
These are unsophisticated people we are talking about. They are not necessarily familiar with our cultural values and are likely to make decisions based on their previously learned values.

Human rights exist because of universal shared humanity - not differing cultural values. Laws and enforcement regimes, in cases where individual values differ, have to take that into consideration and this government hasn't done so. Furthermore, they seem satisfied in an area where such anomalies are widely known to exist, to leave enforcement and regulation in the hands of others who not only may not have the 'sophisticated cultural values' (your term I'd remind you) but who also have a pecuniary interest in taking advantage of those alleged anomalies.

You better stop digging before you disappear.

nothing new here. i see

nothing new here. i see that gwest/alcibiades/?/?/? has wasted away another day threatening, insulting, and pretty much blathering away about nothing. you really need to get a life dude.

I guess you should recognize baloney.

G West

You're the KING of it. You better watch that high horse of yours doesn't buck you off somewhere.

What I said has nothing to do with human rights per se. It was simply an explanation of what I believe. Quit trying to make it something that it isn't.

BTW When I'm finished digging I'll toss the shovel down to you as you'll probably need it. I suspect you've worn out more than one.

Oh, you dig with the flat pointy end.

You might want to look up the U N declaration

Of universal human rights my friend. And remember proudly that it was written, in its draft form, by a Canadian called John Humphrey. Something every Canadian can be proud of – unlike these imposters of an excuse for an accountable democratic government in Victoria – which is nothing but a cause for universal shame and embarrassment.

You accused me of bringing up human rights, remember. I didn't actually even have to do that because human rights is the very center of this issue and you're apparently too thick to see that. Come back when you've added to your obviously deficient education.

Perhaps you can find something more interesting to discuss with Elliot here. You and he appear to be pitched to about the same level.

Another own goal - thankGod you don't play with the canuck

Lots of East Indians come

Lots of East Indians come here under the family reunifacation program. The family member(s) who sponsored them is/are respnsible for their support for ten years. If they could get welfare this family member(s) would get the bill. To get EI you have to have already worked X amount of hours for X amount of months then you get 55% of that pay. How many jobs are available to people who are fresh off the boat with non existant/ minimal english or work skills / references. Rather than be a mooch or be ragged out by the family members they take what they can get.

Wow! All of these comments.....

....and in the end, it really boils down to the Campbell government insisting that industries in this province be self-policing.

So what does WCB have to say in all this? I remember being stomped on by these fine folk for simply missing a payment. Now they have something to sink their teeth into..........

You're missing it, Maestro... again

Its no stretch at all. Its called law REGULATIONS and ENFORCEMENT. Did you ever once ask yourself what those regulations and enforcement of those regulations were concerning farm workers "before" Campbell and why they existed to begin with? Did you ever once ask what people were saying 5 years ago when Campbell gutted these laws and minimized the enforcement of those that remained? Campbell said "there's no evidence to suggest that these laws are working". The NDP said, "its because these laws are working and since you are doing away with regulations and enforcement, they will no longer work. The Campbell government is putting a price on workers lives. Its a matter of time." It was prophesied then.

Its obvious that you didn't ask what was said then, Maestro, and just as obvious by this statement that you know the art of minimizing and minimizing opposing points to nonexistence in debate... until someone calls you on it. It won't work here.

And no, I don't watch Global. That's Canwest. I don't want to watch purposely biased news for gentlemen like yourself. And don't give me this crap about a van or truck or whatever it is or was (CBC photo didn't show it) that has two seat belts that passes safety less than a week earlier when its known what that van/truck is supposed to be for especially when it comes time to insure... unless insurance has also been frauded along with safety inspection or even worse, they just cut out the seatbelts out afterwards, which makes absolutely no sense at all.

There isn't a veichle inspection in the world that would look at the registration of a veichle that is licenced to haul people to work that would pass without seatbelts, unless they too, were corrupt. There isn't a contractor with morals that would take the seatbelts out, or send a truck out that hauls workers to work without seatbelts without being corrupt! (schoolbus maybe, and for good reason. They are built entirely with safety in mind)

This contractor quite simply did not care about the lives of their workers either way, it was for money (and it was nickels and dimes) and guess what, Maestro. Governments know such people exist in the world! Thats why we have laws, regulations and enforcement!! Except for Cambell's regime that is... their talk would be something like, "well, the RCMP is supposed to make sure that people wear their seatbelts."

You know, its not the duty of the provinces to be concerned with workers safety... and you'd better start realizing just where this provinces duties begin and end. The expression afterall, is called "governance." When it comes to workers safety, its under the jurisdiction of the provinces, make no mistake its been like this since the beginning... until Campbell came along.

"You know, it would not surprise me to find out that the contractors involved are white, especially so, the farmers that hire them." And that's what you get when governments don't do their job is statements exactly like this... reflections of loss of life, dignity and cleanup of the the mess left behind, instead of prevention of loss, restoration of repect and "no news is good news".

Campbell is absolutely no the part of the latter, to be sure. Corrupt and inept, any way you look at it and its a mere staw in a heaping haystack.

Lorne Mccuaig
Revelestoke

Re Correction:

Should read, it is the duty of the the provinces to be concerned with workers safety...

Cultural values

And as I pointed out by mentioning forestry, the problem transcends cultural values. There's unsafe workplaces in Mexico and America, India, China, Australia. It doesn't matter where you're from or what your culture... people desperate to earn a living will find themselves put in dangerous situations.

As a young guy I helped with the haying at a Black Creek farm one summer. We rode around on of a huge stack of haybales loaded on a flatdeck. Probably not super-safe, likely not the result of the Mennonite culture of the farmer I was working for either.

I feel you're making a "correlation equals correlation" misstep Snert.

I hope you'll reconsider your comments and realize the culture of the people affected probably doesn't have much to do with the problem at all.

As a counter-point to your observation, I'd make the observation that the taxi industry has a large contigent of Indian and Punjabi drivers, yet it's a darn near a dead cert you won't get more than five people in a cab no matter how hard you try to coax the driver.

correlation equals causation

is what I meant to say

this comment forum is pretty

this comment forum is pretty quiet when gwest and his aliases aren't here. maybe he has even more than 5 login names.

get over it elliot

get over it elliot

Hi Elliott

We're talking about workplace safety in this thread. Perhaps some well thought out remarks from folks with differering viewpoints could spice up the conversation enough for your liking? I'd welcome any comments you might have on the subject of worker safety and regulations.

kind regards,
Stump

Stump

I know what you are trying to point out however I have worked extensively in safety sensitive industries where it is a lot easier to get killed than riding on the freeway in a van full of people. You are absolutely correct when you say unsafe work places exist everywhere regardless of culture.

If, however, you have been exposed to any kind of safety related work you will know that there are many contributing factors to a safe or unsafe work place. In the case of this topic it is my firm belief that (and I'll qualify this a bit further) ethnic cultural values is one of the reasons. It may only be a small part of the problem but it still has to be addressed.

As much as G West would like to turn this into a human rights issue there are a myriad of practical solutions that don't require standing in front of a tank in Tianamin Square.

I am in no way trying to demean the people involved in this incident. The problem needs to be resolved in a rational manor but to do that you have to include the big picture, as distasteful as that may seem to some.

BTW I've also ridden extensively in taxis and you would not believe the number of unsafe cabs and drivers that are on the road and I'll leave it at that. Most are satisfactory though.

I'm not turning it into a human rights issue

It is a human rights issue.

And this:
These are unsophisticated people we are talking about. They are not necessarily familiar with our cultural values and are likely to make decisions based on their previously learned values.

Your words, I'll remind you for about the fourth time,

Does DEMEAN the people involed in this incident and all similar people in an industry where 'taking advantage' is just another way of cashing in.

Throw up the shovel, you're stuck down there and Elliot wants to start his own hole.

Do us all a favour

G West

Find a tank to throw yourself under.

I know you won't be doing yourself any favours snert

Incapable of sustaining a coherent argument, you constantly find new ways of falling on your own sword.

I remember, not so many years ago, reading about a tank of formaldehyde-based disinfectant (used to innoculate daffodil bulbs) in a local daffodil farmer's yard in urban Saanich that was so poorly protected and safeguarded that a young East Indian child fell in and died.

Is that the sort of 'tank' you're talking about?

You won't find it mentioned in this fancy dan brochure, but it happened, on Tydall Avenue in urban Saanich a few years before the Vantreights had managed to leverage cheap farm labour practices into their current status as one of the largest daffodil producers in the world.
http://www.jjb.com/Client/JJB/JJB_LP4W_LND_WebStation.nsf/resources/PDF+3/$file/Vantreight+Farm+Marketing+Brochure+October+2006.pdf

Any other culturally sensitive stories you'd like to hear?

That link probably won't work

Try this one:
http://www.daffodil.com/

The big sale - the real estate link I can't get to open

Fell through by the way. Big deal with a Swiss company just wouldn't come together last fall. You can find the link I was trying to post about 2/3rds of the way down this page:
http://www.jjb.com/Client/JJB/JJB_LP4W_LND_WebStation.nsf/page/Victoria+Feature+Listings

Headed: The Vantreight Lands..

The Vantreights seem to prefer temporary Mexican labourers these days.

It begs the question.

Where were his parents. Not blaming, just wondering.

And talk about sustaining a coherent argument. You take the cake. Coherent arguments in G West's lexicon include a put down at the end of each rebuttal. My, that's gonna be an interesting book.

When you figure out down from up I'll pass you my shovel.

Thanks for the vote of confidence snert

I'm not sure having a plume d'or for coherence from you is much of a compliment.

I don't care where his parents were, it was an unsafe working environment within the bounds of an urban area. It could have been any child from the residential neighbourhood on Tyndall Avenue where it happened. They cleaned up their act after the accident and the investigation - thank God.

But the Vantreights are pillars of the community so one didn't hear all that much about the tragedy - just the child of an immigrant family.

Let's just imagine what would have happened if it HADN'T been an Indo-Canadian child?

You getting the point yet? Just like those 3 dead women and the injured ones - They had 'other standards and cultural values' - remember? Your words. And - 'this isn't a HUMAN RIGHTS issue' - your words too.

Human rights don't just apply to nice little white English speaking folks who sit in offices and push paper. They belong to everyone - under the Charter you don't even have to be a landed immigrant; you just have to be HERE. Period.

If you want to stop looking the fool; my advice - stop writing such a stupid script for yourself.

impact of culture on safety

I agree with snert to the extent that ethnic culture can play a role in safety. Perhaps if we substitute "cultural experience" for "cultural values" in his argument it may be easier to accept.

I searched the Indian Government's legislation regarding traffic safety and it seems that there is a broad framework that allows each state to develop it's own rules. Here's a link to the rules for Chandigarh in the Punjab http://www.chandigarhtrafficpolice.org/ruleslinks.php#
Here's what it says about seat belts:

Law on Use of Seatbelt: As per the provisions of sub-rule (3) of Rule 138 of the Central Motor Vehicle Rules, 1989 'in a motor vehicle, in which seat-belts have been provided under sub-rule (1) or sub-rule (1A) of rule 125 or rule 125A, as the case may be, it shall be ensured that the driver, and the person seated in the front seat or the persons occupying front facing rear seats, as the case may be, wear the seat belts while the vehicle is in motion.
Rule 125 (1) requires the manufacturer of every motor vehicle other than motor cycles and three-wheelers of engine capacity not exceeding 500 cc, shall equip every such vehicle with a seat belt for the driver and for the person occupying the front seat.
Rule 125 (1A) requires the manufacturer of every motor vehicle that is used for carriage of passengers and their luggage and comprising no more than 8 seats in addition to the driver's seat, shall equip it with a seat belt for a person occupying the front facing rear seat.
Prescribed Limit On Seating Capacity: No educational vehicle shall carry children in excess of 1.5 times of its registered seating capacity. As children occupy smaller physical space than the adults and as the registered seating capacity is with reference to adult occupants, the school vehicles are permitted to seat school children up to 1.5 times the registered seating capacity.

Looks like as long as there are over 8 seats, and as long as the seats under 8 aren't facing forward, no belts required. Nothing in any legislation I could find even dealt with passenger capacity except for rickshaws and school buses. And these are the rules for an urban area. The rules in more remote states are probably even more lax if they exist at all. So it's not hard to understand how someone could arrive here with quite a different perspective on what is considered safe.

Apparently there are between 80,000 and 90,000 traffic fatalities per year in India despite the fact that there are less than 1% of the world's vehicles there.

All the more reason why our government should not be relaxing the laws and enforcement thereof in an industry heavily populated by immigrants from India.

Here is another link to a letter written by a chap who served on a coroner's inquest looking at a roll-over fatality involving a van overloaded with East Indians on the #1 near Chilliwack in 1974. As many have said here, there's nothing new about it.
http://www.theprogress.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=39&cat=45&id=&more

As for Stump's observation: the taxi industry has a large contingent of Indian and Punjabi drivers, yet it's a darn near a dead cert you won't get more than five people in a cab no matter how hard you try to coax the driver; my guess is that it has more to do with the fact that the fare is paid by distance and/or time, not per passenger, and the observation might be quite different otherwise:-).

Neat trick

G West

'other standards and cultural values'

Not only do you like to twist the conversation in your direction but by a stroke of typographical ventriloquism put words in peoples mouths then try to hide it by not using full quotation marks.

My words, at least on this page, have not included the term "other standards" You implied they did "remember? Your words."

But enough of that. It's time for you to put up or shut up.

For sake of argument say it is a "human rights issue", in 10,000 (or less) of your own words just what do you propose should be done to correct the issue at hand and what are the ramifications of these changes on the cost of our "cheap food" - your words.

While you are doing this just keep in mind that bringing immigrants into this country from anywhere is still optional.

BTW Here's a shovel to help with the load.

D---(]

eight

I don't think they allow regular passengers in the front seat anymore so 5 might be a tight squeeze in any event. I could be wrong. Maybe Stump saw something he shouldn't have. :>)

eight

With all due respect, I could care less what the rules are in India.

We live in Canada and the government of British Columbia has an obligation to ensure that the treatment of everyone in industrial and commercial - not to mention other venues (entertainment, public transportation and the like) is as safe as possible. For anyone to excuse the negligence of this government and the further negligence of operators and possibly inspectors supposedly acting under their regulatory and administrative purview of the government of British Columbia because the VICTIMS happen to have a different cultural and ethnic background, is, in my opinion, failing to see the forest while concentrating on the trees,

Sorry.

These people were on their way to WORK and in the care and custody of a LABOUR CONTRACTOR operating under agricultural regulations that made both excessive hours of work, piece work pay rates instead of minimum hourly wages and child labour legal, they were not in a public or commercial vehicle for hire.

The fact there is nothing NEW about it is no excuse for the continuing failure of the authorities having jurisdiction to DO something about it and to stop passing the buck and pretending that have done something about it at the same precise time that the evidence shows this government has made it worse. Reluctance to address a problem with cultural overtones never once stood in the way of the organizing arm of the BC Liberal Party when it came time to assemble individuals to provide support and votes for a particular Liberal candidate (both Federal and Provincial) did it?

The fact that the situation in India is a worse travesty than it is here is damning our own practices with faint praise. India also has a population in excess of one billion people.

I understand what snert is trying to say, and I understand what you're saying too. In my view, it is simply beside the point when it comes to the shirked responsibilities of this government and its facile claims of no responsibility whenever something bad happens on its watch.

Exactly the same kind of spinning began immediately after the sinking of the Queen of the North. David Hahn was front and centre taking credit for a successful rescue before he even realized - to his everlasting shame that two BC citizens had gone to the bottom with that ferry.

This government and its army of spin doctors has no credibility and will not regain it until such time as it remembers that it has consistently failed to be what it promised it would be. That is, open and accountable and a government that cared more about doing a hard job than pretending.

There should be no more excuses for them - they are inexcusable. Period.

'Exactly the same kind of

'Exactly the same kind of spinning began immediately after the sinking of the Queen of the North. David Hahn was front and centre taking credit for a successful rescue before he even realized - to his everlasting shame that two BC citizens had gone to the bottom with that ferry.'
what a bunch of garbage. most likely those two citizens died b/c two ferry workers were getting jiggy with it. if you really want spin phone the ferry worker's union. as for this thread; it's politicking at it's worst. there's no story here. the regulations are there. do you lefties really believe that the gov't can check every vehicle on every trip. this one had recently passed inspection and then was probably jimmied right afterwards. perhaps if the ndp were in power that would be so, but the red tape would paralyze all those workers anyway.

G West

You're preaching to the converted on the issue of this government and its record of disrespect and antagonism toward anything that stands in the way of business making a buck. I spend a great deal of time hammering away at my MLA, and various government ministries and bureaucrats over issues like labour laws, aquaculture, WCB legislation, freedom of information, etc.

I don't think they give a damn whether there is a detrimental impact on East Indians, women, men, the disabled, seniors, the environment, or your pet dog when they pass legislation. If you are in the way, in any manner, of their supporters making a buck, you are going to get hurt.

My point, and maybe it was my fault for making it poorly, is that in this case, the East Indian immigrants involved are especially vulnerable due to their ethnic background and experience, and that snert was correct to assert that it does play a role. That in no way excuses this government, and why I stated "All the more reason why our government should not be relaxing the laws and enforcement thereof in an industry heavily populated by immigrants from India."

They should not be relaxing safety regulation for anybody in my books, but this thread was discussing the specific case of East Indian immigrants, and that is why I referenced their immediate past experience. You may care less what the rules are in India, but I think they do have relevance to the attitude of recent immigrants, and can contribute to their vulnerability here.

I think we're on the same side of this issue, and instead of pissing on each other's shoes, should be trying to come up with an answer to lynn's question above: "So now the people of this province must ask what is the next step?"

Agree absolutely

Good point eight.

I disagree with snert and the way his input on the issue began. In addition to disliking his style - he probably doesn't think much of mine either – but I'll live with that. I'll sustain my position on the main question while agreeing wholeheartedly with your last paragraph.

As for being on the same side of this issue with you, I agree it's likely - and probably not just on this question.

With Snert, I'm afraid not. There's some history here I'm not prepared to overlook at this point. He is, in my view, no ally.

The next step, in my view is for the elected representatives, who have the jurisdiction and authority to act to start doing that and stop making excuses.

I have no confidence they will. I hope the people - who will eventually judge these folks, are paying attention.

Elliot, as usual you’re a couple days late and fifty pounds light. You’re still playing Chris Simon hockey, in my view.

Elliot

"the regulations are there."

No. They were there. Until removed by your heroes.

"do you lefties really believe that the gov't can check every vehicle on every trip. this one had recently passed inspection and then was probably jimmied right afterwards."

Leaving aside whether I'm a "leftie" or not, I really believe that it would be nice if the gov't did check at least a few vehicles, rather than ordering inspections to cease. In fact, when they were embarrassed into renewing inspections last week they found, to no one's surprise, that there were very many reasons why they should have been inspecting all along. As for the jimmying right after the inspection angle, I'm going to wait for the investigation results, because I have a hunch that the company responsible for the inspection might have to explain their diligence. Call me a sceptic, but why would you go to the trouble of removing belts if they were already there?

G West

Seems to be a few disagrements with snert lately. looks like you are resorting to you usual name calling and whining. Maybe you should rat him out for something and try to get him barred from the tyee. Then you can have a forum of one. just you. The way you want it. No other opinions allowed.

And to think..I thought i was special!

flattax

oh you are something special bud...somethin` real special

and you know it too

dontcha

veins

what runs in you creeps veins...acid?

Look..its not about left and right ..its about awareness..being fully human...you know..human? Like human being?

Name calling flattax???????

Show me one incident dude. That's elliot's shtick....and yours; apparently - the name calling I mean.

I don't want snert banned. Whatever gave you that idea? I don't even want YOU banned - and furthermore, those decisions have nothing to do with me. I have nothing against snert and I don't think there was anything fundamentally wrong with the way we handled our disagreement. I think snert’s actually a pretty decent fellow.

On the basis of what you think (and what you've written) about anyone who doesn't live in a million dollar house in West Vancouver; I'm not sure I have the same opinion about whoever posts under the name flattax.

All sorts of opinions and attitudes are just fine and I know I can handle ten ad hominem specialists like you without breaking a sweat. You know why? Because all I usually have to do with guys like you is highlight something ignorant you've posted yourselves. Easy Peasey.

I never whine either - someone else's tactic too.

I'd just like you to post facts (if you ever have any to support your prejudicial views) stay away from personal attacks and try to actually make a real point once in awhile.

So far, I haven't seen a single indication you're capable of anything so fundamental and simple.

Whew!

That was close.

taxis

Actually, my guess is that they'd be pulled over and fined in a heartbeat if a cop saw it. Enforcing the regulations and all that. Funny how that works.

Elliott, Elliott, Elliott

We can aircare darn near every vehicle in the Lower Mainland and you think it's impossible to check the much smaller number of vans that carry farmworkers at least once a year?

Also, I notice you love to hack on the two BC Ferries employees you consider responsible for the Queen of the North sinking. Fair enough. It would be nice if you also recognized the amazing job the rest of the crew did in getting everyone else safely off a sinking ship.

Tell whoever hands you your talking points that it would look more "fair and balanced".

stumpy; i have no problem

stumpy; i have no problem with the bc ferries crews. in fact i happen to think they do a marvellous job and that this situation was clearly an anomaly. my problem is with the cover-up perpetrated by the union leaders. it's wrong and it's ridiculous, but that doesn't seem to matter by the leaders of our public union labour leaders, as witnessed by the recent actions of the heu and the bctf.

What cover-up

I don't see any evidence of a cover-up. The TSB is doing their investigation and the facts will eventually come out.

If the people you accuse of misdeeds actually did do as you suggest, any lawyer worth his/her salt would probably tell them to keep quiet until their day in court right?

I don't see much difference in this case.

There, we've each had our say. Let's get back on topic.

My understanding

Is that the Ferry workers cooperated fully with the Transport Canada investigation and with the RCMP inquiries but have not agreed to cooperate with the internal Ferry review process until the Transport Canada report is tabled this week.

Sounds sensible to me. What wasn't sensible was the idiotic decision not to name the new ferry the Spirit of Hartley Bay.

The spin doctors got that one completely wrong - pretty much the same way they fed the wrong lines to David Hahn during the first 24-48 hours after the Queen of the North went down.

they fed the wrong lines to David Hahn

Did "they" feed DH thew wrong lines, or did he tell them to feed him the wrong lines?

Elliot says: "my problem is with the cover-up perpetrated by the union leaders"

Well, MY problem is the complicity of DH in this whole thing, right down to his refusing to acknowledge the valuable work done by the denizens of Hartley Bay.

apologies

Sorry for the sarcasm, G West, when I said you thought you were "perfect". I know you never said that. I can make biting remarks and usually don't notice until I see the look on someone's face. In this case, of course, I couldn't.

Lynn, thanks for the compliment- yeah, I remember that comment... but what on earth was the thread about for me to bring it up? Ha!

S'okay Fii

I like you too - and yammer as well for that matter...You guys don't contribute nearly as often as I'd like to see you do.

Cheers.

These safe guards will all

These safe guards will all be taken away with TILMA including all of OURS as WE have no opposition to protect US.

Here's a party worth voting for a party "For The People By The People"
http://canadianactionparty.ca/cgi/page.cgi?zine=show&aid=343&_id=27
Isn't it about time WE had the Fortitude to go after these greedy bas_ _r_s?
Now it’s spring lets start by joining and going out to the corners of OUR streets every evening at 6pm till 7pm and look to see how many will be there with US it's thought that could catch on!
WE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE!
Make a sign like "Corner Democracy"

This is what gordo, Ralphy

This is what gordo, Ralphy and Harper are all about the NWO, scary shite.
http://www.freedomtofascism.com./

Brain:

To be continued...but I think you are the one missing the the point, especially you out- of -towner types.

I'm not sure you are really that well- versed and immersed in the Farm Practices culture where this accident happened(within GVRD/Fraser Valley)

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think anyone picked up on my ICBC prop comment, which was shown on TV and explained some of the physics involved in such an accident.

PS I have heard of Revelstoke...but WHERE is Revelestoke ?

You're wrong!

ok

G -Alci - West

Please come out of retirement as a volunteer crash test dummy. Help in the investigation's re-enactment.

I'm " right " ,.... you are " left ", hence wrong in perpetuity.

like I said - make a neat package

I'm " right " ,.... you are " left ", hence wrong in perpetuity.

And put it in the garbage!

The Canadian Action Party

The Canadian Action Party for truth We need to act NOW!
http://canadianactionparty.ca/cgi/page.cgi?zi
Is this what we want for our future?
Not me these are treasonous acts against US all CANADIANS.
As such WE should as Canadians bring a Class Action Suite against the traitors in OUR Federal and Provincial Buildings
This is very close to becoming real with TILMA
Action NOW!

G Alci West iabides

Wassamatta ?

Knickers in a knot-sky again ?

PS Don't forget to post it again.

Ciao-sky

here ya go - be proud

Knickers in a knot-sky again ?

PS Don't forget to post it again.

Ciao-sky

Says maestro, again refusing to actually make a relevant and meaningful conrtributution.

GWest as long as I've been

GWest as long as I've been on Tyee blogs I've never seen 1 one single intelligent post on any subject that he has uploaded!
With all the name calling and very malicious attacks on bolgers I kind of wonder why/how he hasn't been banned?
Coyote banned as he was a very intelligent and fair blogger in my mind.

mystro

mystro

New Caledonia Dude-sky

Kettle- pot-black-sky

Ciao- sky