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Too Many Police Chiefs?
Save lives and money, create regional police force: experts.
Against idea: Solicitor-General John Les
In the early 1980s, Clifford Olson murdered at least 11 children in the Lower Mainland. Because his murders crossed jurisdictions, police were slow to share the information that would eventually lead to his capture.
Although there is more co-ordination today among the many police departments in the region, the situation as a whole hasn't improved substantially, says Robert Gordon, director of the Simon Fraser University school of criminology.
Gordon told The Tyee the only way to fix the current patchwork system of Lower Mainland police jurisdictions is to create a regional police force.
Last November, in a report to the B.C. Progress Board, Gordon and co-author Bryan Kinney, a fellow SFU criminologist, called for the amalgamation of police forces in Greater Vancouver, Greater Victoria and the Fraser Valley.
"The current situation is, to put it mildly, bizarre," the report states.
'Balkanized'
However, the man in charge of B.C. policing, Solicitor-General John Les, says the current system is working just fine.
The province is interested in integrating functions such as homicide investigation across jurisdictions, but is not pursuing regionalization, Les told The Tyee.
Les pointed to programs such as PRIME, a computerized information system that will link B.C. police forces.
He described PRIME and integrated police units such as the integrated gang task force as "regionalization...in a virtual sense" as opposed to the physical amalgamation of forces.
Criminologists, however, say such initiatives don't go far enough. And they blame parochial interests and a lack of political will for the problem.
"Policing in the Lower Mainland is balkanized," said Kim Rossmo, the former Vancouver cop known for his work on geographic profiling of murder cases. "And that leads to some inefficiencies and communication problems."
Cases into 'an abyss'
As for the integrated units, "that's good, but is it enough?" asked Rossmo, currently a research professor in the Department of Criminal Justice at Texas State University.
"I don't know," he said. "You start amalgamating enough units, it just leaves the question of why don't you amalgamate the whole force."
Rossmo told The Tyee that during his days as a Vancouver cop, a serial killer would not just fall through the cracks -- he would fall "into an abyss."
Currently in the Lower Mainland, there are independent municipal forces in Vancouver, West Vancouver, Port Moody, New Westminster and Delta. Other municipalities are policed by the RCMP.
That system leads to "significant inefficiencies," Gordon said.
"If people think they're getting efficient police services as a result of that, then I'm not sure what they're sticking up their noses, but it's certainly good stuff.
"It just simply isn't tenable."
'Getting rid of chiefs'
Greater Vancouver and Greater Victoria are the only large metropolitan areas left in Canada that are not policed by a single force, Gordon said.
"The taxpayers of both those regional areas are not getting appropriate police services for the dollars they have spent," Gordon said. "Economies of scale are not being achieved. There are still significant rivalries between the RCMP and the municipal police services, despite the attempts that are made to create more harmonious relationships."
A regional force would be much more cost efficient in the long run, Gordon said.
"Straight off the bat you begin to see savings by getting rid of a bunch of police chiefs, by rationalizing a lot of operations."
Gordon, who served as a police officer in Australia, Hong Kong and London, England before becoming an academic, said proponents have been arguing for a metropolitan police force in the Lower Mainland for decades.
Some jokingly describe the issue as "the whale," he said.
"It surfaces about once every five to 10 years, spouts vigorously and then disappears. And nothing ever seems to happen."
Control issues
Over the years, some powerful figures have mused about the creation of a regional force.
Almost 20 years ago, Vancouver city councillors were saying that amalgamation was inevitable and would probably take place within a decade.
More than 10 years ago, the attorney general of the day, Ujjal Dosanjh, said he favoured amalgamation, but chose to leave the issue up to the municipalities.
A number of factors have always managed to block the creation of regional police forces.
"You have a number of competing interests," said Rossmo. "People are not willing to give up their control.
"If you're a police chief in a small jurisdiction, wouldn't you rather stay a police chief rather than become a deputy chief or a superintendent" in a regional force, he asked.
Municipal politicians, especially those in the suburbs, have been reluctant to give up their local forces, some of which -- West Vancouver for example -- are seen as giving better service than Vancouver's force.
Some municipalities see the RCMP, which is non-union and partially subsidized by the federal government, as a better deal financially.
The suburbs are also reluctant to enter into a deal that they fear will force them to pay for policing in Vancouver's high-crime areas. (Vancouver politicians respond that many of the criminals who commit crimes in Vancouver live in the suburbs.)
The RCMP has also been slow to go along with regionalization.
"They favour regionalization if everything is handed over to the RCMP," said Gordon. "They are clearly contemptuous of the capacities of the municipal police forces.
"And that just breeds hostility between the municipal forces and the RCMP. Which results in poor policing, quite frankly."
AG Oppal: political will 'lacking'
The current attorney general, Wally Oppal, has been quoted as favouring regionalization in the past.
But, in a wide-ranging report on the state of policing in B.C. released in 1994, Oppal -- then a B.C. Appeal Court judge -- tiptoed around the issue.
Although he wrote that "on the surface it would appear that the amalgamation of police forces is necessary in several regions of the province," Oppal concluded that, "with few exceptions, there is no public interest in amalgamating police forces."
Wrote Oppal: "Locally based policing is clearly supported by local politicians, who see it as effective and cost-efficient. There cannot be any amalgamation of police departments unless there is a clear political will, which is lacking in this province."
Oppal instead called for greater co-operation among forces and increased integration of functions such as communications.
Rossmo and Gordon both said that the only way regionalization will take place is if the province forces the issue.
"It's clearly the responsibility of the provincial government to step into the fray here and to create regional police services," Gordon said. "It's the most sensible thing to do. It's sound social policy."
However, he said, there are few votes to be had from creating regional police forces.
"Sound social policy and politics are distant cousins at best. With respect to regional policing, they're very much not on speaking terms."
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32
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alive
5 years ago
Parasites!
We are blessed with one large "old boys club"!
everybody in the club should have a nice cushy job, right! NOT
What really is needed is to amalgamate the entire lower mainland into one large area, and quit these little kingdoms that made sense when they were spread apart by miles.
Now it is all one big city, so let us get organized ..and send all those parasites back to the umemployement office
murdock
5 years ago
Kaliedoscopic Keystone Cops
He described PRIME and integrated police units such as the integrated gang task force as "regionalization...in a virtual sense" as opposed to the physical amalgamation of forces.
Yes and 'the computer' is soooo good at running down a criminal.
'The computer' has solved those great big white collar crimes, like...like...ummm?
Political will, maybe, more likely it is the 'growing pain$' ca$h flow that $uch a change bring$ about. During the switch-over to a regional police force, the pay-rates would need to be harmonized (meaning surrey police [currently RCMP rookies] will be paid the same as West Vancovuer ex-RCMP veterans. Then there is the pay-out of all those ex-chiefs and their pensions!
Toronto went through all this a few years ago, the council and Mayors that started it have all paid the political price, I suspect that it is that price that none of the current council wants to pay.
Moreover, such a regional force will need to decide, is is the RCMP model that they will use ~ or a more efficient smaller force model and send the Queens Cowboys packing?
These are "communication problems" that no computer program can solve, it takes a real team effort to counter-organize or out-organize organized crime. The total lack of will to get on with this needed reformation of lower mainland policing makes one wonder where the most organized criminals are...
Working Memory
5 years ago
Prepare for 2010
Amalgamation is the only efficient way to prepare for 2010.
It's time for the GVRD to grow up and get in the game with the rest of North America.
You can only bury your head in the sand for so long before your ass gets kicked.
morechatter
5 years ago
North America?
I was just reading somewhere we had the worst 911 response time police in Vancouver in North America. Also comparing services of police service in the subburds to Vancouver's force when we were just told most of the crimes are done by people living in the suburbs is what? Something like everything is fine just fine?
maestro
5 years ago
My Vote:
My vote is all Police forces share a common data base...but still keep these same Police forces "Local" and "Locally accountable".
It appears that many crimes had "Justice delayed" = " Justice denied" because of the Turf Wars and Pissing Matches and witholding of valid data and other information. ie the Scumbags do their dirty work in various police jurisdictions which at times don't want to share notes.
Each jurisdiction has its own unique situations...one size/force does not fit all.
( Apparently the Pickton case "breakthrough " was an RCMP member enacting a search warrant that had nothing to do with murder allegations, but another police force ALSO had an eye on the Pickton farm for other reasons...talk about a prime example of disconnect) .
Otherwise, I see a " POLICE State " evolving with only one POLICE force, or at least a far worse and far more expeditous police state than we may have now.
Also, I am sick and tired of the Federal force , aka RCMP, who keep throwing young quasi-rookie recruits into the fray, as they often look like deer- in- the -headlights. It's time for the police to establish more permanent roots in the community they serve, and quit the revolving door program.
Skookum1
5 years ago
overseeing the new force
The only way this force, if it's created, will have any kind of legitimacy in public eyes if it is overseen by a citizen commission and its officers are not protected by the same self-scrutinizing system that's served us so poorly, whether it's the VPD or the Mounties of whomever. Such a police force is very potent politically, and it should be kept on a tight leash; and its officers should be subject to independent review/prosecution.
G West
5 years ago
Common base
I thought they all shared the same DNA - kind of a paramilitary sort of primordial goop. Err..I meant soup.
Nice of you to confirm it.
Excellent point Skookum1.
flattax
5 years ago
No to amalgamation
As a resident of West Vancouver I say that there is no way we would like to combine with all the slummy municipalities in the lower mainland. No way. Take your crap and deal with it. We want our cops in West Van, not deployed to Vancouver to deal with you own crime wave created by too much social housing, safe injection sites, empoverished minority groups, half way houses, lax sentencing, and catering to the poor. Helping the poor, drug addicts and criminal element helps to create more of it. Leave West Van out of it.
murdock
5 years ago
Stop refurbishing Lions Gate
Just let the Lions Gate Bridge rust out.
Vancouver City does not need the crap coming in from that route any more.
Is this what you are all about, flattax?
flattax
5 years ago
No to Amalgamation
murdock,
YES.
We are nimbies over here and it has served us well and will continue to serve us well.
keep this in mind and don't forget it: if you own a million dollar house in Vancouver, the city treats you like crap. If you own a million dollar house in WEST vancouver, the district trears you like you own a million dollar house.
In Vancouver, everyone comes before property owners: VANDU, VANDOG, DERA... you name it. Vancouver has gone to the special interest groups and this has affected the quality of living (and the crime rate) there.
That is why vancouver an stir in its own self created mess and leave our police force alone.
woody
5 years ago
Live Anywhere but Vancouver !!!
If I was making a geological change, and was restricted to chose between Vancouver and West Vancouver, I would take West Van. over Van. In a heart beat. I got to agree 100% with what flattax said about Van.
alive
5 years ago
too good for the rest of us
Quote:
Leave West Van out of it.
right, effeciency is of no importance to you!
"creme de la creme" as we heard from another upscale neighbourhood when it came to sharing with their neighbours.
my how I detest selfish people
bob the cat
5 years ago
West Van is boring
I`d rather live in Kingsway..a real neighbourhood..West Van is boring and dull.
I hope they stay isolated on their nimby island prison counting their money in their million dollar house with their very own cops.
Charles Campbell
5 years ago
West Van police
I've spent a lot of time and have many friends and family in West Vancouver, and know a bit about the place and its police force. It's got a small-town police department, prepared to pick up the rejects, the future drunks and liquor thieves, who would be unemployable in many other jurisdictions.
So I guess there is some advantage to municipal policing. West Van provides a place for second-rate cops where they can do the least amount of harm. Throw in the second-rate planners, and you've got a municipality worthy of certain smug, selfish, insular residents. Too bad they all bring down the reputation of a community inhabited by many people who deserve better — from their government and their neighbours.
flattax
5 years ago
i sleep soundly at night
unlike I ever did in Vancouver.
i dont have dumpster divers in my alley, needles in my garden, a crack house on the corner, a ho down the street, a halfway house in the hood. i sleep soundly at night knowing that if i need them, police will be at my door in 60 seconds as opposed to 60 minutes in Vancouver, if at all.
my kids go to the best public schools in Canada, with an esl rate approacing a rounding error, while your kids have the sole purpose of teaching immigrint kids english.
west van is the vancouver of yesteryear. the vancouver pre expo that everyone dreams about. a neighbourhood of self selected people who see through the politically correct BS that has ruined Vancover.
bob the cat
5 years ago
Lucky
I guess your a lucky man flattax..esl rates like that..funny, my daughter went to school on the Island for a year..Courtenay/Comox..she didn`t like it much..no multicultural mix..too vanilla. She preferred her scruffy working class/immigrant
school.
Shes heading to India in a couple of weeks with an Indian buddy...kind of nice being able to travel with someone who knows the language.
West Van picked her up as a pitcher when they qualified for Provincials. They treated her ok..she pitched them a win..(only win they got) The coach was a stockbroker..he wore pink pants I remember..lots of bling, a mustang convertible..a woman with a poodle and a frilly umbrella..I wonder if she walked it at the Bluffs. I was talking with a homeless guy in Vancouver the other day..he had a sign HIV Homeless Hungry..we talked for quite awhile..he was a really bright guy..had been a heroin addict but was clean now..I asked where he stayed at night..he said "mostly outside"..man it was cold and wet out..I tried to give him five bucks but he refused it..I forced it into his pocket...he said Meatloaf was playing town that night and that had been the first album he ever bought as a kid..today was his birthday..40..a big one..I remembered I had two 20 buck tickets to a Chopin piano recital at Christchurch on Sunday which I wasn`t going to be able to use. I asked him if he`d like them..maybe he could sell them..he was pretty quick and said they`d be hard to scalp as the people who would attend the event would probably wish to support it buying a ticket proper..
he said he`d like to go. I said great if someone can use em..happy birthday and my friend showed up and we left. He had a very distinct odour which took me a couple of days to rid my nostrils of..kind of an earthen smell..maybe he was a faun now that I think of it or..Jesus Christ himself.
flattax
5 years ago
bob the cat
nice story. i am really touched.
however, bottome line:
leave the west vancouver police force alone. i like to see my tax dollar work, not lost in a politically correct ineffective bureacuacy at 12th and cambie.
the crime in vancouver is a vancouver problem, created by vancouver's politicians. maybe 17 new police officers for vancouver is ok but they will have no effect on the crime.
amalgamating police forces is just a machivellean attempt of burecrats to expand their sphere of influence while doing nothing to reduce the crime problem.
Vancouver: deal with the mess you have created by yourselves. leave the west vancouver police force alone.
Hint: the problem is not an ineffetive police force. it is with the judiciary, that lets scumbags walk free. we have tried to solve the social root cause of crime for too long and just made it worse. its time to just lock the perps up and throw away the key.
Stump
5 years ago
Cost of crime
Wouldn't it be fun to compare how much money has been bilked out of people by West Van-living stock brokers compared to
DTES petty criminals?
If there's a better substance for creating a false sense of entitlement than a little money I've yet to see it.
I agree. Let's be insular. Not sure who's going to do the dishes or care for the sprogs when West Van closes the borders, but hey, no doubt Mommy can take a break from shopping and lunching to source a new nanny.
Working Man
5 years ago
A little fact checking is in order
.
Of course there is no point arguing with a fool but in fact, the West Vancouver school district has THE HIGHEST ESL rate in middle and secondary school in BC. So many Asian kids are trying to get into the West Van school system that the overflow is going to North Van.
And besides, them immigrint kids are the only thing keeping your schools open to beging with.
A regional police force is a no brainer. The VPD has a clearance rate for major cases that should be a major political issue.
eight
5 years ago
flattax
I wonder how many smug West Vancouverites actually make their money in West Van? There is no industry there. None. No agriculture either. If you couldn't leave the borders of your fine municipality you would starve to death.
If you ever get into trouble in Vancouver, don't call the VPD, call the West Van police. You know, the force with their own on-site bar and liquor cabinet, where the brass and the lower ranks all get hammered together and drive home?
Chris H
5 years ago
That is a little misleading.
"the West Vancouver school district has THE HIGHEST ESL rate in middle and secondary school in BC."
Only because how ESL students are counted. Richmond has way more ESL students in High School, but the Ministry doesn't count them as ESL after five years in school. There is a five year cap. West Vancouver gets the most international students, that pay the district big bucks, to attend their schools. West Vancouver uses the money they collect from those students to reduce class sizes in order to compete with private schools. The notion that West Vancouver is some bastion of ESL support is laughable. They aren't accepting any poor ESL students, trust me. In elementary school, the previous writer was quite correct. There aren't many ESL students at all in West Vancouver. Look at Richmond and Vancouver where you can easily see 80% of primary children designated as ESL at some schools. That is a much better indication of what the diversity of the student population is like in any district.
Yammer
5 years ago
Rossmo and Gordon
...have a lot of credibility, as ex-cops, to speak about police efficiency.
If argument posits and research corroborates that one regional police force is more effective and less wasteful than a multitude of municipal police, then why not do it, Victoria? If it doesn't work, change it back. In the meantime, what do we have to lose, except a lot of redundant management and support infrastructure?
This doesn't affect West Van at all, which anecdotally enjoys less petty crime, probably a function of local population.
flattax
5 years ago
esl
yammer,
not sure where you get your data. go to the fraser institute website and take a look. west vancouver has very low esl rates in BOTH elementary and secondary schools. with the highest rates being in the schools closest to the british properties for status conscious immigrints.
working man,
resorting to insults is a typical left wing argument to deflect the discussion from a point you are unable to counter.
G West
5 years ago
insults???
This is what you posted flattax:
You think you might have something to teach anyone about insults?
flattax
5 years ago
g west
no insults from me. others hae done that, when they get offended by the truth.
i just write about reality. not sugar coated socialist left wing nonsense.
bye for now.
G West
5 years ago
this isn't an insult?
You must have gone to school in West Van.
flattax
5 years ago
g west
you have no basis or any arguement to stand on. So you attempt to insult me to deflect the discussion away from my original comments. It merely proves my point of view as one you cannot dispute. You have no legs to stand on.
Readers: go back and read my comments to you can get the truth about the cause of the crime situation in Vancouver with no sugar coating.
G West
5 years ago
How is it insulting to you
How is it insulting to you to post back for your more careful consideration what you yourself have written and put on public display?
If you check carefully, I think you'll find that's exactly and precisely what I've done.
In fact, if I were you, I'd start doing a little explaining - either that or just leave.
Virtually everything you wrote is, and has been, since you submitted it for consideration, in more or less constant dispute. As if you haven't noticed.
My legs are just fine. You may want to call for a wheelchair.
Yammer
5 years ago
Flattax
What data? I'm supporting Rossmo and Gordon in this thread and replying to your assertion that this would somehow affect West Van. I think West Van has West Van problems, East Van has East Van problems, and Maple Ridge has Maple Ridge problems. It stands to reason that these each exist because of local conditions, not because of whether the police are split up into separate municipal groups or not. 's all
Chris H
5 years ago
flattax
"no insults from me."
Hmmm ... how about: "no way we would like to combine with all the slummy municipalities in the lower mainland.
A little bit of West Van snobbery perhaps? Well, hopefully you stay out of North Vancouver where I live along with all the surrounding municipalities you look down on so much. I'm sure there are enough rich kids drag racing on the upper levels, runaway trucks going down 21st, and grow-ops in those million dollar homes to keep the, apparently, unethical West Van Police busy enough.
DPL
5 years ago
My Gosh right here in the
My Gosh right here in the Victoria area we have so mnay police forces, mayors and councils it's tough to keep track. Victoria is pretty small but we have Victoria, Sannich, Central Sannich, North Saanich and then of course Sidney, Esquimalt, Oak Bay etc etc etc.
We also spent a ton of money getting a comunications system that was to be the envy of the world. It doesn't work well inside buildings so the guys with the guns have to pack a cel phone besides their radio. Reaside suggested in a cartoon today that the cops bring along carrier pigeons as they do their raids. It would be funny except people will get hurt. But bring up the word alalgimation and folks start to froth at the mouth. Everyone is protecting their own turf.
DNA
5 years ago
Too many police chiefs?
I am amazed that for once I agree with John Les. The problem with big regional police forces is that they quickly get militarized. And they don't really save money. I'm for community policing, and that means having a community police force. The point of policing to my mind is "keeping the peace," and you can do that better with local people who know the community. Else why not have the Mounties everywhere? Hands up anybody for that solution? You know how sensitive and efficient the Mounties can be!