All issues can be twisted

All issues can be twisted around and sold to the public by mind benders. This is how religions and ideologies are turned into weapons of destruction and mass murder.

As long as people believe that "wealth can be created", and the banks are permitted to "create" endless capital, demanding conversion into resources, there's no hope for any improvement.

The attention should not be focused at politicians, who are nothing more than puppets, but universities where the naoclassical market economy is used to brainwash students with, who then can sell the idiocies of the "GDP, cost savings, etc." to the public.

With corporations becoming bigger by the day, with automation firing thousands, with the family farm system being destroyed,
environmental destruction will grow.

There's no hope for any improvement under the present economic theory and its enforced policies.

The only thing politicians and economists will do is to keep on lying and sell distorted figures to the public to keep it quiet, until the final breakdown, because they can't afford any "drop in the GDP", as it would signal "no growth" in their warped minds .

As the nazis and communists have done.

Hitler was still winning the war on May 4/45. So Goebbels said in his last broadcast, then went home, dodging Russian bullets, poisoned his children and committed suicide.

The presently ruling economic theory is basic war against the ecology and humanity, sold as "growth".

Ed Deak.

Political parties and ideologies not the answer.

Action on the environment will not come about through parties and ideologies. It will come about when people take to the streets. It will come about when thousands commit civil disobedience against the environmental criminals, not hundreds... Then the politicians will scramble to do something real.

Ed D. - sadly I think you are right

I think Ed D. is right, I do not want him to be, but I think he is. I cannot see a way out of this mess, the only thing I see is the 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse. I see Canada collapsing in a chaotic mess of revolution, brought about by the shear incompetence of our so called political leaders.

The only real change will come from a revolution and sadly when that revolution happens, it will be short and nasty - ethnic cleansing - massacres - forced starvation. It has all happened before and Mr. Deak can testify to that; being there.

I see no way out of this mess.

A question?

If we can force new houses to install a sprinkler fire suppression system, why can we not force new houses to have a solar/wind energy system, where a few outlets in the house operate on solar or wind generated power.

Not being an expert on the issue, but such a system should be not to expensive to install, say $500 max. and could power a fridge; or a computer; or any other constant use of electrical power. I friend of mine has purchased two solar generators from Canada Tire, wired them in such a way, with a battery, to power 5 electrical appliances, for a cost of under $200. At least during our recent typhoons, when the power went out he had hot coffee, soup, TV and local heat, though not at the same time.

I think this to be more useful than a sprinkler system!

Turn the tables

While reading this article it occurred to me that our thinking has been influenced by the politicians and big business.Especially here in BC. Everything gets spun and hyped and the masses follow like puppies.
So why can't we turn the tables on them. Instead of listening to what a parties platform is, we give them our platform. Generate enough interest at soapbox speeches and political rallies to sway the people. Let the people unite. We don't let them tell us how it is. We tell them. And not by polls either. And further we tell them how a recall goes. 50% +1. Not 60-40 or 70-30. It's a lot of work but then nothing is easy.

Grumpy: there is a website, http://www.prairieturbines.com where a guy in the states built his own wind turbine.
This site can give anyone the basics and if you have some electronic experience or know someone who does you can build one fairly cheap from used parts. The only thing I ever saw as a fault in this system was the size of the propeller. This guy seems to have solved that to a point that you only need a small yard instead of acres. Also Don't forget that hydro still buys back power for the grid.

Watch out Alcan

RV Pet Peeve

I confess I don't drive the most fuel efficient vehicle, but when I see dozens and dozens of 8 mile per gallon behemoths waddling down the highway, often towing a second vehicle, I wonder about the seriousness of Canadian interest in thwarting global warning. How about a tent, a rustic cabin? Why are we putting all this gasoline and diesel into these rolling mansions? Why do 2-4 person families need 5000 sq ft houses, which have be heated and lighted. I don't see much journalistic attention to these excesses of consumption.

My thoughts

I think this is the best thing possible for the environment. The Left has always tried monopolize concern for the environment.

Many people write it off as a bunch of socialists talking. Now, you have Conservatives talking big on climate change. In the U.S. - you have some of the biggest corporations coming together pressing the government to act now - including GE and Alcoa!

I think we should put politics aside here. There is clearly a grass-roots movement, but this is very fragile. There has to be compromise between environment and economy. Believe me, if we shut down our country for the sake of the environment - our economy will come down!

People will lose jobs and environment will not be the priority. Balance is key here....

You are right, Grumpy!

I would add a cistern to keep rain water, a grey water system, LED lights. I would also give tax breaks for people to eliminate their lawns and for people who plant vegetable gardens.

Latest secular religion :

Lefties "talk -the -talk" , rarely walk- the -walk ,....except in circles. Can this be harnessd into AC/DC power??

Lefties often simply " talk and tax " ...
The Non - Lefties will ultimately (i) bring -home - the- bacon and concurrently (ii) save -the -world's- bacon.

However " Hope springs eternal " , ....Spring Training is right around the corner...and teams with the most useful Lefties will be there right up into the October Fall Classic,....give or take the socialistic salary cap.

So who the hell is a so

So who the hell is a so called "leftie" ?

I've asked this question time after time, but none of the anointed faithful ever reply.

As far outfits like GE and Alcoa are concerned, if their quarterly "earnings" drop on account of any environmental action on their part, the "investors" will flock to those who don't give a damn and that will be the end of their "environmental consciousness".

Standing pricks and investors have no conscience.

I'm surprised and gratified to read that Ron discovered the obvious, that so called "economy" shuts down "ecology", because the present fraudulent economic system is the cause of environmental destruction by "wealth creation".

Millions of jobs can and will be created with the destruction of the presently ruling, criminal economic theory, because the main cause of the problem is "wealth creation" by overcapitalized production systems trying to satisfy the stock and money markets.

Our local mills have half the labour force and process twice the lumber they did 30 years ago, but with huge, multiplied energy inputs that cause the destruction, to satisfy the stockholders, God knows where.

Ed Deak.

Here's a site

Everybody can go in and get the numbers to play with. Just remember to compare apples to apples (not Canada with New Zealand) and the big picture should make itself clear.

http://earthtrends.wri.org/searchable_db/index.php?theme=6&variable_ID=351&action=select_countries

Population figures can be obtained from any number of sources. Once again compare apples to apples (years).

Countries like China and India can negate any practical Canadian cuts in energy consumption by just increasing theirs by less than 1%. This is likely to happen as they increase manufacturing to grow their economies.

If we could physically shrink the size of our country and turn up the heat a bit we may be able to cut our energy consumption significantly.

Oh, wait, we don't have to do anything. Global warming will do it for us. Problem solved.

Makes sense....

Here here !!

I second the motion

(In fact, someone should turd the motion !!!)

We shoud be far more comprehensive and expand the "Go Green" scope ...and also penalize those who don't compost all organic waste "on site". The building code should be amended to demand a minumum pro-rata garden per residence yard...say minumum 100 sq.ft. They have TREE Bylaws don't they? Why not this?

People should be prohibitively taxed for accessing the public sewer systems. Eventually the sewers will be phased out.This would force them to either " relieve themselves" into a compost heap on their own property along with the potato peels, old lettuce , etc, deceased family pets...grass clippings and leaves etc...or else carry all the organic waste to a GVRD/ City recycling site.

We can then take our home -grown Humanure fertilized Garden products to farmers markets for sale " Buy Local " or to garden shows and compete, or brag to neighbours "mine is better than your's" because mine has _____ as the secret ingredient.

Then the GVRD won't get " anal " about sewage treatment and any treated sewage into the rivers and oceans...and our taxes thus reduced or laterally diverted so we can pay for RAV /SkyTrain,or Olympics... or other worthy projects.

We simply must work together to end these old biases and prejudices...there are practical solutions wherever you look .

PS : Grumpy
...........any truth to the "rumour" out there that the creme -de -la -cremes along the Arbutus corridor would agree to a WindMill Farm along the old Arbutus railroad right -of -way??? ...not that I personally "give a sh*t" if they agree or not...
A " source " told me it is one of most viable sites in the GVRD for such a "Go Green" electrical co-generation endeavour...did you hear the "same rumor " ???

We ALL have to do OUR part... and give a crap about the environment ...correct??? ..nudge- nudge wink -wink ...or it all goes down the sh*tter ??? I know G West, as usual.. will think this isn't funny...but I am SERIOUS !!!

Ciao ...and more importantly " Chow".

The only way

The only way that this disaster is going to fundamentally change the way we live and wastefully exploit the environment through our excess consumption in the First world is if the economy tanks and tanks badly.

A lot of innocent people will be hurt; but as long as the idea of increased sales and profits are in the back of everyone's mind there will be no change.

We're going to drive the economy off the cliff one way or another: Either by trimming the sails of a wildly inflationary monster or by breaking the bank.

Sorry folks, but a little green ain't gonna cut it anymore.

Don't any of you remember Nixonomics?

Green Automation

with automation firing thousands

You're always claiming automation causes job losses. You're assuming everyone is so profoundly retarded that they are incapable of acquiring new skills when their old skills are no longer needed.

100 years ago, over 50% of the population worked directly in agriculture. Today, because of agricultural automation, only about 2% of the population works directly in agriculture. Does that mean we have a 48% unemployment rate? No! Most people have found other jobs. In fact, our unemployment rate is much lower than unemployment rates in third world countries where there is no agricultural automation.

Would you prefer to go back to the good old days when children and arthritic elderly people would starve if they didn't spend long days hunched over in the fields carrying out third world style 100% manual agriculture? Would you force teenage girls to give up their education and spend their days hauling buckets of water from the nearest river to the fields as is done in third world countries?

An interesting new agricultural automation technique uses small, low-cost, low-power video cameras and image recognition software to identify and selectively destroy weeds. One system still uses herbicides, but instead of carpet bombing an entire field, the system identifies each weed and sprays a tiny drop of herbicide directly into the centre of each weed. Because the amount of herbicide used this way is only a tiny fraction of that used with the carpet bombing approach, it becomes financially feasible to use somewhat more expensive natural herbicides that biodegrade quickly instead of using artificial neurotoxic chemicals that never break down and wind up accumulating in the food chain.

In my family, we've always grown some of our own food in our back yard - including in backyard greenhouses. If necessary, we could ramp up production and grow all our own food. But like most Canadians, I have absolutely no interest in being a full-time farmer. At ages 12-15, I worked part of the summer picking strawberries to earn enough money to buy electronics equipment and parts for some of my early projects. Being hunched over in a field all day picking strawberries by hand is a miserable job. I wouldn't wish it on anyone to do that as a career. But I'm damned glad I did it for a while to get a solid feel for what manual, open-field farming is like.

It's much nicer to pick strawberries from a waist-level growing bed in a greenhouse with an automated watering system and a large colony of ladybugs as a substitute for pesticides. Ladybugs would just fly away if you tried to use them to control insect pests in open field farming. Greenhouse farming also offers other advantages such as zero soil erosion, very little irrigation water lost to evapouration, no crops lost to bad weather and a much smaller environmental footprint because each square meter of greenhouse grows a lot more food than each square meter of open farmland.

Here in South Delta, we have numerous large greenhouses and there have been complaints when cheap sawdust is burned to provide heat during colder days. Even though I like greenhouses, I would prefer to see these greenhouses heated in a cleaner, more efficient way. For example, instead of discarding excess heat on sunny days by opening vents, some greenhouses use fans to blow overheated air through an underground pit filled with rocks during hot days and then let that stored heat back into the greenhouse during nights and cold days. See a few examples of this at http://www.sagefarm.net/greenhouse.html and
http://biorealis.com/resumes/projects.html and http://www.wisconsun.org/learn/cs_mckaysolarthermal.shtml The Canadian Federal Government has done some interesting work in this area. See http://www.iea-eces.org/success/standard_utes.html Also see the main site at http://www.iea-eces.org

CC...... What would you

CC...... What would you clever people do if you couldn't put words into people's mouths and jump from one extreme to another?

I've spent 7 years in "green Revolution" chemical, agribiz, and apart from a reasonably good education at Cambridge, am also a fully qualified tradesman, manufacturing business owner for 35, and 28 years in organic agriculture, so I do realize that a certain amount of automation is necessary.

But for what purpose ? This is the question: to make people's lives easier and more productive, or to divert the benefits of resource extraction and conversion into special interest pockets, by stealing their wages ?

The people displaced by unnecessary automation must find other resource bases for their needs. Governments must provide the resources to satisfy the convertibility demands of imaginary capital created by the banks, causing excess and wasteful resource conversion for no real economic, only for profit making purposes.

That's where the problem starts and ends.

If you don't have any practical experience in the fields, please watch what you're reading and find out the purpose of their readings.

We had reasonably well balanced systems in the '50s and '60s. The problem started with the neoclassical theory forced on Earth in the '70s. This can be easily documented and traced back.

Ed Deak.

Correction...... Should

Correction......

Should be...."the real purpose of their writings", not readings.

To much in a hurry..........

Ed Deak.

Thanks Maestro!

Thanks for perverting what Grumpy and I have written into absurdity. The point is, and it should be obvious, is that if the municipality can have a host of regulations requiring sprinklers, a minimum house size, minimum set-backs etc and infinitum, it can also use its powers to encourage sustainability. In other words, "if the sauce is good for the goose, it is also good for the gander."

Anarcho:

Anarcho....

TGIF
....but seriously....where do we start and where do we stop?

I was actually given a book based on recycling human waste....it was called "HUMANURE" (Human manure)...the philosophy that human waste is actually wasted and some practical options.

In "cold dry scientific terms" please prove to me that one could NOT have an extremely productive viable garden soil with a proper compost system in place. I read years ago that the Chinese peasant farmers don't waste "it", they "vacate themselves" out in the fields..its also called "night soil" .

Yeah, I know many in society will go "ugghh" , but that's the hypocritical point.

This broader environment issue is simply deja vu all over again. I vividly recall the same basic enviro-issues in the early 1970's, its just climate change is now added to the retro-zeitgeist. It's like how Ed talks about propoganda in the past...this enviro /climate- change issue is almost attracting a quasi mass cult status.

However...Armchair environmentalism can be worse than no environmentalism.

Grumpy, I'm sure, knows my actual views on other issues...we have certainly discussed them many times.

you might want to check out the health consequences

The Chinese rural practice of fertilizing kitchen gerdens with 'night soil' is one of the reasons why Chinese rates of certain kinds of Cancer have sky-rocketed.

You might want to do a little research into a product called Milorganite. It has been around for years.

You can read about it here:
http://cwmi.css.cornell.edu/milorganite.pdf

I agree

I agree Maestro that sometimes the environmental movement can be foolish and that some of the suggestions (many of the suggestions?) might be off base or impractical, but nonetheless, prudence alone - a conservative virtue missing from 98% of todays "conservatives" , ought to make us try to do something serious about the environmental situation.

The Japanese used to build

The Japanese used to build fancy outhouses beside the roads to entice travellers to use them.

In Europe human manure was, or may still be used, on hayfields, as I have seen it Austria and Germany. The houses had their toilets on the second floors for easy emptying below, into wooden tanks on 4 wheels, pulled by the farmer by a couple of horn like handles, spreading the liquid from the back. My own landlord in Austia did it.

Many old farmhouses in Lower Austria, around Linz, Wels, and all across Germany , were built in square, with the human lodging on one side, stables and a big manure heap in the middle. One could step from the kitchen right into the cow stable.

American soldiers were not allowed to eat locally grown vegetables either in Japan, or in Germany after WW2, as they made them sick.

On the other hand, our present antibiotic hysteria is also the cause of many illnesses and the spread of immune bugs and viruses.

I spent 14 months in the most primitive German MASH hospitals, 3 as a patient, 11 as an orderly. Wooden barracks and floors, swept, but never desinfected, hand laundered beddings, now and then, no antibiotics whatsoever, hardly any drugs.

We were doing amputations for months after the war, starting with about 600 patients with the most bizarre wounds, bits and pieces of embedded dirt, wood, pieces of wire etc., we were all starving on a few hundred calories a day, the wounds took months to heal for the lack of nourishment.

The doctors and the operating nurses wore rubber gloves, but I who held the patieent's legs haven't, standing there in my uniform pants and shirt. Nobody wore masks, as we didn't have any.

Haven't lost a single patient in all those months, no colds, or other infectious diseases, no infections whatsoever.

I was talking to a friend, who did the same work in a US military hospital in Minnesota , during the Korean war. Clean, proper hospital, spotless operating rooms and wards, antibiotics, all the drugs and food they could get, yet a 30% infection rate.

The reason, modern medicine, especially the overuse of antibiotics, destroyed the immune systems in the so called "developed" countries.

I'm not promoting human manure, and dirty lifestyles, but at the same time, everything can be overdone and we're paying the price for so called "progress" in hundreds of ways.

Ed Deak.

Alci:

Alci:

Agreed re night soil negative possibility..but perhaps that's the point.

If one passes through chemicals etc. that one has ingested that do not break down but can be carcinogens etc and thus the cycle repeats...I see your point.

The question is if one goes " 100% organic " re: food intake, should Humanure be 100% OK ?

The solid waste is going " somewhere ".

I read a while back that even so-called "organic foods " have naturally occurring carcinogens and also natural bacteria, pathogens etc. etc. which can also compromise human health .

Sometimes one can't win,...but regardless ,that's what is good about the TYEE , various parties adding to the discussion and the debate.

Ciao and "Chow"

So many ideas above

It is difficult to summarize any coherent reaction but, since this IS thetyee:
Here's a ditty I composed in the early '70s:
"People think I'm crazy"
"My sister and a feller talked the other day. One said Lovin' was the "highest way"
The other said that sex was alright with him
But you can't go on without a good "B.M."

I built a Compost toilet that don't always smell bad
So I get to keep the best ones I ever had!
Chorus:
People think I'm crazy and I just might be
'Cause I don't mind sh!t and I hate TV!"

I did build this smelly thing and left my wife ,two daughters and many upset visitors wondering for a few years before I replaced the "indoor Privy" with the "Thomas Crapper" (that's the name of the inventor of the "water closet" and very likely the origin of the minor swear word).

After the conversion I shrouded the deposit in plastic sheeting and left it for a few years. Eventually I removed the material and concreted over the hole. Can not remember just where I put the compost - possibly in the vegetable garden - but so far no one eating our veggies and fruit has turned up their toes.

There is certainly a problem with fertilizing crops with untreated sewage and more problems down the road for treated.

Antibiotics and inorganics that we swallow and wash off our bodies build up obviously but the main problem would be that we generally regard a sewer as a waste disposal system for much more than human feces. We dump anything soluble down the hole and some of us even dispose of cell phones (accidently) there. Try to compost that!

Hockey Night in Canada, Hello!

Surely, we have to close and ban all the indoor hockey rinks in Canada? The amount of energy required to make the ice and the escaping freon must be astounding.

Energy

It seems as though the evidence is almost incontrovertible. Our little planet is warming up! Hot flashes can cause unhappiness and people can become testy. Perhaps we have to stop burning gases and oil, fossil or abiotic notwithstanding. I never thought I'd say this but I suppose we have to consider our children, save our planet and go nuclear.

This will be the new battle cry.
Cool the planet! Stop the rising seas!
Don't risk our children's future - Go nu-clear!

I'm with you

Realisticman:
As long as the proviso that I posted a while ago is observed:
Every shareholder and consumer of nuclear generated electrical power is issued regularly with a tiny packet of radioactive waste and given thourough instructions how to keep it safe.

In the short term this is a solution - like the dog licking his balls.

The long term is a bit more complicated:
Are you going to mount a defence system for the waste and maintain it flawlessly for the quarter of a million years (or so) of the half-life of the waste?

Or were you one of the boneheads who advised launching ICBMs loaded with radioactive waste into our SUN?

Licking Balls

I'm out of shape I guess 'cause I can't reach but I always liked the Sun option. I guess we could use styrofoam containers and fish out boxes of waste after any unsucessfull lift-offs. Although, I understand that nuclear waste can now be further used.

No matter how deep ones tongue is in ones' cheek, nuclear will be a seriously considered option by many - very soon.

Sadly, you are right

Realisticman, I suspect you are correct in assuming that there will be pressure on to go nuclear. We have to be prepared, right now, to put a stop to that option.

Old news

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=ae9b984d-4a1c-45c0-af24-031a1380121a&k=0

Can't stop it

After my flippant comment I asked Google and it seems that, as they say, " everybody's all over it". From Ghana, Pakistan, Oz, etc. It's getting play. Can't stop all that.

Another distraction from MSM

Environmentalism, Hussien, Democrats, Rosie/Trump, Hillary/Barack, global warming, Iraq War, all distractions. As the mass media creates illusions, Big Brother clamps down by opening our mail, suspending habeas corpus, stealing private lands, banning books like "America Deceived" from Amazon,America Deceived (book) rigging elections, conducting warrantless wiretaps and starting wars based on blatant lies. Soon, the sinking of an Aircraft Carrier(by Mossad) will occur and the US will 'retaliate' against Iran. Which AIPAC-lobbying country benefit's from that? How much will the environment matter after a Nuke attack on Iran? Not much. Stop Iraq, Prevent Iran then the environment.

Other side of the coin; Can a Leopard Change spots?

So the Cons have "seen the light", and are quite willing to see their corporate political donations slashed, because they are going to "do the right thing" environmentally? (same goes with Libs, which have the same donors)

Yeh....right!

This environmental bandwagon is a diversion. Question is: what do both the Cons and Libs have in common that they do not want people to notice?
TILMA?
NAU?
Privatized medicine?
The list is long..........

you have my attention 11722

How does one go about "preventing" Iran?
If we knew that we might shift this hell bound train to another track.

I ain't sayin' that the folks who think nuclear power is the answer are dead wrong. What I'm saying is they are DEAD WRONG!

In the short term I agree that the Yanks and Israelis could and possibly will engineer a nuclear strike on Iran.

The environment will still matter to those who survive.

All be it even worse

Nothing is going to change...except the North Pole will melt.

The environmental issues have been around for quite some time however it was really just the dope-smoking, unemployed hippies who were concerned in the past. Since then the wealthy people (ex-hippies) of this planet have been more concerned with making money and filling up there SUV's than any stinking old Global Warming crisis which is just some crazy scheme designed to suck money out of the wealthy countries as the present Prime Minister of Canada once suggested.

The issues that make it to the top of the political charts change as often as my underwear. When the next current event arises such as Iraq, Afghanistan, or Child Care then the environmental concerns will be temporarily put to rest. Come on folks...can you really see a government imposing strict emission controls on the very industry that financially supports their election campaign? Can you really see the government substantially increasing gasoline taxes to encourage drivers to use public transit or purchase fuel-efficient cars? Do you know what happens to politicians who publicly suggest that people reduce their meat consumption to improve their health? The beef industry turns their political careers into mincemeat. The same thing will happen to any politician who screws with corporate profits and investor dividends by imposing tough environmental regulations.

Objections

doggone

So exactly what are your objections to nuclear power?

Harper on IPCC report

The IPCC report in Paris illustrated the global consensus that global warming has become a crisis. At times of crisis people need leadership. Instead of galvanizing action, our leader responded by letting Canadians off the hook. He declared that this is a "long term problem" which "will not be fixed overnight". If he truly understood the science he would realize that we only have the "short term" to make any difference.
Once global temperatures pass a certain threshold, natural factors will warm the planet beyond our control. We only have decades at best. He declared that it is "fantasy" to take all of our cars off of the road. Well...with the grim reality of this report, I would have hoped for a much stronger call to action!

nukes

Some time ago I read that breeder reactors created more fuel than they used, and considerably less spent fuel, and even that with a much lower half-life.

Aside from the issue of nuclear weapons, was that analysis correct?

Global warming: Is it too late?

GLOBAL warming is irreversible and billions of people will die over the next century, one of the world's leading climate change scientists claimed yesterday. Professor James Lovelock, the scientist who developed the Gaia principle (that Earth is a self-regulating, interconnected system), claimed that by the year 2100 the only place where humans will be able to survive will be the Arctic.

In a forthcoming book, The Revenge of Gaia, Lovelock warns that attempts to reduce levels of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere may already be too late.

"Our planet has kept itself healthy and fit for life, just like an animal does, for most of the more than three billion years of its existence," he writes.

"It was ill luck that we started polluting at a time when the sun was too hot for comfort. We have given Gaia a fever and soon her condition will worsen to a state like a coma. She has been there before and recovered, but it took more than 100,000 years."

Lovelock, 86, who now lives in Cornwall, reckons temperatures will rise dramatically over the next 100 years: "We are responsible and will suffer the consequences: as the century progresses the temperature will rise eight degrees centigrade in temperate regions and five degrees in the tropics.

"Much of the tropical land mass will become scrub and desert; before this century is over billions of us will die and the few breeding pairs that survive will be in the Arctic, where the climate remains tolerable."

The scientist says he has been loathe to write such a depressing book: "I'm usually a cheerful sod, so I'm not happy about writing doom books. But I don't see any easy way out."

He believes pollution in the northern hemisphere has actually helped reduce global warming by reflecting sunlight.

However "this 'global dimming' is transient and could disappear in a few days like the smoke that it is, leaving us fully exposed to the heat of the global greenhouse". "We are in a fool's climate, accidentally kept cool by smoke," he says.

Climate-change scientists have been warning about the rise in temperatures reaching a "tipping point" when carbon and methane locked up in the Amazon rainforest and Arctic ice would be released into the atmosphere as the climate becomes drier and warmer.

Lovelock says: "We will do our best to survive, but, sadly, I can't see the US or the emerging economies of China and India cutting back in time and they are the main source of emissions. The worst will happen and survivors will have to adapt to a hell of a climate."

http://living.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=76062006

Nuclear power is the only Green solution

"So what should we do? We can just continue to enjoy a warmer 21st century while it lasts, and make cosmetic attempts, such as the Kyoto Treaty, to hide the political embarrassment of global warming, and this is what I fear will happen in much of the world. When, in the 18th century, only one billion people lived on Earth, their impact was small enough for it not to matter what energy source they used."

http://www.ecolo.org/media/articles/articles.in.english/love-indep-24-05-04.htm

Barbara Marx Hubbard maintains that the forces of synergy in evolution, the same forces that combined atoms into molecules, molecules into cells, and cells into multicellular entities, are presently "drawing us together into a living organism....We are experiencing a crisis of birth."

As we reach the limits of material and population growth, we will naturally turn to inner growth. In the context of ongoing human evolution, she discerns three great human drives: self-preservation, self-reproduction, and self-actualization, "the longing to fully develop unique potential through creative expression."

Her word for this longing is "suprasex," which she explains as "the passionate motivation not to reproduce ourselves, but to evolve ourselves." This change is natural and necessary. "As we need fewer babies and wiser people, nature is flooding us with this urge to self-express. If Mother Nature invented sex to get us to reproduce the species...and made it very attractive, now she is inventing suprasex to get us to evolve ourselves and our world."

Global warming is the result

Global warming is the result of the transferred costs of fraudulent definitions of the "GDP", "Growth", "Productivity" "Economic Efficiency" and "Wealth Creation".

Thanks to our university economics departments.

Ed Deak.

What a Mere +6.4C Temp. Rise Can Do:

The UN Report on climate change out yesterday gives scenarios of likely effects of average global temperature rises, beginning with a +2.4C rise, and giving a new scenario for each additional +1C rise after that.

But it doesn't go beyond the +6.4C projection [+6.4C may not even sound like a humungous rise to some]. But the +6.4C scenario self-explains why a further +7.4C projection isn't really needed:

+6.4°: Most of life is exterminated
Warming seas lead to the possible release of methane hydrates trapped in sub-oceanic sediments: methane fireballs tear across the sky, causing further warming. The oceans lose their oxygen and turn stagnant, releasing poisonous hydrogen sulphide gas and destroying the ozone layer. Deserts extend almost to the Arctic. "Hypercanes" (hurricanes of unimaginable ferocity) circumnavigate the globe, causing flash floods which strip the land of soil. Humanity reduced to a few survivors eking out a living in polar refuges. Most of life on Earth has been snuffed out, as temperatures rise higher than for hundreds of millions of years.
http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article2211566.ece

...Maybe so, but hey, doesn't Alberta need to keep its oily gravy train chugging full tilt for now?
Isn't that what's important? I hear pigs grunting. They're saying they must be fed!
Short term greed trumps long term survival, every time. Isn't that how capitalism works
(in reality, if not in theory)? Or is that nihilism?

Alberta deep thinkers

Yeah Bobb999 the main idea seems to be to have a helluva party on the way down I guess. I expect the oily guys will be trundling out small armies of global warming deniers on a regular basis now...along with a lot of focus group cleared fancy pants PR exercises to make everyone feel good about the fact that they're doing their part.

You could almost hear the greasy wheels turning in the 'prime minister's' little statement on TV last night as he started to spin that message.

Talk about moral relativism. Wasn't that the label slapped on anyone who didn't fall in line to invade Iraq?

Maybe we should turn it around on these turkeys because, after all, this situation is the 'moral equivalent' of war.

It's time to bust this bankrupt economy for the last time - nothing else will do the trick - the cycle must be broken.

Climate Change:

The Ivory Tower gods have spoken !!!

PhD fear-mongering...errr ...the PhD jury has spoken.

Can ya see the deer-in-headlights politicians globally cutting a mass of big -time cheques in the form of grants to scientists " $o they can $tudy this i$$ue f-u-r-t-h-e-r " ?

Carl Sagan-esque..Billion$$$ and Billion$$$ and Billion$$$

Why is David Suzuki on a bus crossing Canada as we speak on this issue...is the bus solar - powered?, wind -powered?, tidal -powered?, pedal- powered?,old and new rhetoric -powered? ....what ?? rumours of Diesel powered??? Egad!!!

Regardless "The timing " eh???

BTW : No apologies for the skepticism /cynicism...not much arms- length here from the Ivory Tower .

Gee sure been cold out the last few months...what's this global warming err climate change? I thought the weather was a CONSTANT. EVERYONE talks about it but NO-ONE does anything about it...sorta whee the Federal LIEberals evolved from.

Regardless : Where to start ??? :

Apparently 10 % of Canada's greenhouse gases are attributed to Agriculture activities.

-- what about methane collectors on cattle so that its not entering the atmosphere and affecting the climate /weather ???...but then what do we do with the collected product...it then becomes a commodity which can be used to....aha !!!use it to FUEL something!!!!...which implies a combustion process and its byproducts ...so???. Thus ?

-- is this 10% based on what are deemed efficient farm operations...as opposed to smaller and less capital -intensive Ma and Pa farms . If we revert back to Ma and Pa , and/or perhaps Organic operations , does this inherently imply, de facto, that MORE green house gases will derive from agriculture, using the efficiency arguments.

I guess we will have to either (i) ban or(ii) limit agriculture...or have it all under ONE roof or far fewer rooves where we can control it and its byproducts better. "Cake -and -eat- it -too" mode.

Less food = less people = problem solved !!!

Nukes create GG's too

http://www.pembina.org/pubs/pub.php?id=1346

Nuclear Power in Canada: An Examination of Risks, Impacts and Sustainability
Published: Dec 14, 2006

By: Mark S. Winfield, Alison Jamison, Paulina Czajkowski, Rich Wong

This study examines the environmental impacts of the use of nuclear energy for electricity generation in Canada through each of the four major stages of nuclear energy production: uranium mining and milling; uranium refining, conversion and fuel fabrication; nuclear power plant operation; and waste fuel management. It is intended to inform public debate over the future role of nuclear energy in Canada, and to facilitate comparisons of nuclear energy with other potential energy sources.

The study concludes that no other energy source combines the generation of a range of conventional pollutants and waste streams - including heavy metals, smog and acid rain precursors, and greenhouse gases - with the generation of extremely large volumes of radioactive wastes, that will require care and management over hundreds of thousands of years. The combination of these environmental challenges, along with security, accident and weapons proliferation risks that are simply not shared by any other energy source, place nuclear energy in a unique category relative to all other energy supply options.

It really isn't whether

It really isn't whether nuclear power is any more dangerous than "conventional" power systems (the only difference being that one can kill/maim that much quicker than the other).
What IS a major drawback with nuclear, is that it is necessarily a large and elaborate system that takes it yet one more step away from being under the control of the individual, and yet makes individuals more dependant on it, thereby moving it into the realm of "monopoly" and "manipulation". We need a plethora of "mini-systems" than we do a few "mega-systems", because democracy and freedom depend exclusively on the ability of the individual to control the energy (s)he requires to exist in this world.

maestro

Too elaborate! Just ban cattle. They are not efficient, agriculturally-speaking anyway.

The same land required to raise enough cow meat to feed one person, can grow enough comestibles to feed 7 people.

It's a slam dunk........

Composting

Alci
Milorganite is derived from sewage which is contaminated with street runoff and industrial waste.

The rise in cancer rates in China are produced by their cavalier attitude to industrial pollutants. They have been using nightsoil for 40 centuries.

Human and animal waste must be composted and must reach temperatures high enough to kill pathogens. The Japanese knew that and enforced composting rather brutally in Korea during the occupation.

The flush toilet is horribly wasteful and is based on the Roman cloaca idea. A great mistake was made in the 19th century when the water closet was chosen over the earth closet. The 19th century was enamoured of mega-projects and they did build incredible sewer systems.

Urine diverting stools make collecting it separately easy which prevents smell and could allow useful chemicals to be retrieved from it in urban areas.

It is obvious to me that in order to finance the changes needed to make each household green we are going to have to beat our swords into alternate enegy systems and better waste handling.

Re: Nuclear energy

This was a TYEE topic was just recently archived in the past few days under something title " Nukes for Oil " or something along that line.

One TYEE contributor discussd the "economics" of Nuclear power plants towards production of electrical energy and left the other issues more off to the side .

Apparently, it requires heavy subsidies in the range of $$$ Billions of dollars, and requires a whole separate industry capable of producing components of very exacting specifications. It appears that many of these manufacturers are no longer in business, or have gone into other areas...thus the niche' nuclear expertise would have to be ramped up again.

Excluding the environmental impact...ie radioactive waste et al... this persons' contribution via themselves as being familiar with the Nuclear industry somewhat persuaded me to vote NO to the Nuclear Energy option.

Like many "options", "the devil is always in the details"...we see these Nuclear power plants and their cooling towers emitting wisps of steam...and via these visuals think all is good and well.

Perhaps the best way to assess any and all energy options in simple "Layman's Jury terms " is the " LONG TAILPIPE THEORY "...How is any energy source actually derived from START to FINISH ...and what are all the byproducts of this energy production...,the good AND the bad.Thus, it's NOT just what we see at the end in typical "out of sight = out of mind" fashion .

The California electric car debate is a good case in point. Sure, we see electric cars emitting zero at the END (no "smoke") , but US Electrical energy stats show, the US is highly reliant on Fossil Fuels to be the raw material source of electrical energy generation ie Coal Fired plants, etc.

I read one statistic that 95 % of the original energy is lost in the production of the electrical power for the electric car in California , ie only 5 % actually reaches the car.

Thus, that Californian and their electric car is probably oblivious to the fact that the Coal fired plant is 100's of miles away, yet the emmissions will still disperse evenly due some basic thermodynamic principles...but they can't see it,.... so therefore it doesn't exist...so all is well.(???)

Again (i)LOOOONNGG Tailpipe Theory ....and (ii)the devil is always in the details.

Rick.... vast areas of

Rick.... vast areas of Canada are not suitabe for any other food production, than cattle.

No topsoil, forests, short growing periods, etc. etc. can still grow healthy meat.

The problem with cattle starts at the feedlots, causing incredible ecological damage, wasteful grain and water use and tons of chemicals to put stinking yellow tallow into the meat, called "marble", the North American public is hooked on. Then they're wondering why Medicare is collapsing under the increasing demands.

We can grow cattle with the absolute minimum of ecological damage and, being strong environmentalists, wouldn't do it if it wasn't so.

Our cattle have never paid for themselves and are costing us about $200/month from our pensions, but we feel it is our duty to grow food, only people who have gone through long periods of starvation can understand.

Ed Deak.

RickW

RickW

Simply " Food for thought " as per usual..(though you are quite good, and my compliments, when the torch is being lit and passed on to create more "methane free" food for thought) .

However, Fiat Lux/Ed might take issue...my understanding is he has an Agri -operation involving livestock. I understand Ed's operation is in the Cariboo...an area I am also quite familiar with. Suffice it to say...it is difficult to grow much in the way of fruits and vegetables...on a commercial scale, other than perhaps Hay etc to feed the same livestock....hence livestock is often the only option.

Also keep in mind that Canada, by and large, from coast -to -coast has a limited natural growing season(ie for plant based food sources )... if one excludes GreenHouse production. To be more domestically self -sufficient will require a bypass of natural food production systems...correct??? ...which implies artificial means...which often implies more use of NON- natural energy. "Buy Local" ok where and when...ain't the natural harvest over?

Also, if we increase domestic food production , we are more self - sufficient in theory, but do we also further impact the environment with the byproducts of this so-called self- sufficiency ? I know there is concern with reliance on California or Florida etc EXTERNALLY produced imported food, but then again..that US production is based a lot on "natural Solar power"..is it not...."a natural advantage"...and thus OVERALL, I repeat OVERALL, perhaps less gross impact on the environment than expanded and perhaps 12 month a year domestic food production would be in our Canadian climate which is on average colder and less solar-sunlight seasonally.

Just a thought, but lets discuss OVERALL pros and cons...sometimes I think this "Canadian" is defined by CANADA = " NOT American " avoids the big picture and we fall into ideological potholes and all that goes with it.

In essence this Climate Change issue best start with a base analysis and moreso with a " don't bite the hand that feeds you " ...it might bite you back in the ass BIG time.

Not unique

Look at this "sudden" lust for nuc-u-lar energy...........

maestro

Not if we take time off work, rip up the front lawn, and grow our own radishes......

But we'd rather up up more energy going to an all-day job, then use up more energy going to the grocery store, which itself uses up energy trucking stuff in, from places whichuse up yet more energy because it's become a case of "go big or go home".

Turns out that "small IS beautiful":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Is_Beautiful
(f we'd let it)

yeah yeah

A lot of talk, we will see millions spent on how to make things less polluting.
The way to go is to not manufacture stuff that nobody asked for.
Much as we hate Hitler, he had a good concept when he choose only a few good vehicles to manufacture and stopped the production of a number of similar but less effecient vehicles.
See the carlot overfilled with choices that only differ in their cosmetics?
It is a total waste to make stuff only to maybe make a profit!
We have "Liquidation World's" all over trying to get rid of things made that in the end nobody wanted!
We regularly are brainwashed into exchanging perfectly good belongings, just to keep up with the latest trends.
Smokestacks all over the world are blowing out pollution just so we can have yet more stuff to go shopping for, stuff nobody really needs.
Untill we stop the profit driven industry and commerce, we shall keep creating unnecessary greenhouse gasses
It would please me to see the advertising firms go belly up because people only bought what they needed.

The amount of damage depends

The amount of damage depends on how food is grown.

Most of the present damage is caused, once again, by chemicals, unnecessary medications for animals and birds, agribiz monocropping, the "economy of size" and unnecessary mechanization. (Yes, we use tractors, but very seldom and only for short periods, when there's no other way. 20 litres of Diesel fuel lasts me for 2-3 months)

The environment has very large recovery potential and it can be used wisely for non damaging food production.

However, that can only be done by small, family farms, where people care for their lands, their own and the health of others. At the same time, they have to be able to make a living from their lands, as they have done it for centuries before.

We use no chemicals, except a few drops of Tordon, on Canada thistle that can not be killed any other way. 1 litre lasts us several years. Our animals are healthy, their meat is out of this world, confirmed by all who taste, or buy it, there are no bugs in our garden and the production is top line.

This shows how fraudulent the "Green Revolution" really is. It has killed many of my old friends, and paralyzed and almost killed me, for no other reasons than profits for the shareholders.

Plus the cancer epidemics and environmental damage the world over, caused by the covering of everything under chemicals. The doctors are promoting the eating of vegetables, but when we walk by the vegie departments of the supermarkets, the smell of chemicals hits us in the face.

Many of the imported greens are nuked on the border, destroying them, people take them home and cook them in microwave ovens that destroy even the little food values they have left, then they're surprised why they're sick.

Ed Deak.

mopled. Re China and night soil

I wouldn't want for a moment to disagree that industrial pollution is a great problem for the Chinese but I'd have to disagree with you about the historical nature of the link between un-composted night soil fertilizers and various kinds of throat and nasopharyngeal cancers. This is not for a moment to say that I would not concur with your observations about Milorganite nor with your conclusions about where we ought to be going relative to the magnitude of the problem of human waste handling now and in the future. In fact, I think, if I’m not mistaken, that the GVRD also uses some of the dried solid material from the Annacis and Lulu Island waste treatment facilities for fertilizer as well.

http://www.ibiblio.org/chineseculture/contents/heal/p-heal-c03s03.html

Despite the changes mentioned in the above material, it is still a fact that, in Southeast China and Taiwan, head and neck cancer, specifically Nasopharyngeal Cancer is the most common cause of death in young men.

I am aware of the evidence that fermented and smoked foods also play a role in these diseases.

My only point, in the end, is that mega cities create mega problems. Even if composting is practicable and safe in some contexts in a rural environment it seems highly unlikely that a culture which cannot make the simple sacrifices necessary to reduce greenhouse gas emissions will begin to make the much more comprehensive and expensive changes necessary to process human wastes safely and in an ecologically neutral way.

Mega any and everything

Mega any and everything creates mega problems, yet promoted for the sake of "efficiency", because a small sectors makes big profits and never mind the real and transferred costs, which are not accounted either in economics, or politics .

The bigger the problems, the higher the GDP.

Ed Deak.

Rick W

Between you, ...me.... and the urban ranch fencepost.

Yes, one could tear up the front lawn,have a garden , but we know THAT ain't going to happen to a very large degree.

In the broader Urban setting .....what I see is those who once had urban gardens are getting too old to be able to tend to them...they sell their homes which are either (i) rented out to parties who have no time nor interest in gardening...or (ii) the house is demolished and a house 2-3 times the footprint is built in its place. Not much room left afterwards...and "Curb appeal" trumps most others.

My oldest nephew in his late 20's got married..and is shoe-horned in an "affordable" condo near SFU. Only "organic production" was last years live Xmas tree kept potted on the front porch for re-use this year...( BTW it croaked just before Xmas...yeah ,I know, dam bio- engineering planned -obsolescence by neo-cons )

However, if you do get say 100,000 people in the GVRD to do as you say, and garden- for -food...then the ripple effect is that it hurts the local farmers.. "self -sufficiency" in the "supply- and -demand" equation. I doubt that a farmer that actually goes broke ever goes back...very fragile economics.

ALSO: If these people tend to cattle ie one cow per front lawn...you may displace Ed/Fiat Lux's agri - viability...but then maybe Ed's maybe then going to have to look up Bob "Condo King" Rennie for an Urban flat.That possibility is on your shoulders Rick .

In the end,its a personal choice, but again...most will turn the key and go shoppin' fer the vittles. . Anyone that gardens knows you can have good years and bad years...just like the professional farmers.

Where are you going to get your front yard food in a bad year?

Goes full circle...eh?

Stop taxing green technology

Evidently the die is cast and we're in for it big time! The question isn't IF serious 'bad stuff' will happen, but how soon and how bad. On the theory that the best way out of a hole is to stop digging - Gov'ts can easily go a long way toward advancing Green technology using their favourite tool: Taxes.

As an example; in BC we have a sliding scale of sales tax for passenger vehicles - goes from 7% to 10% depending on the purchase price. (Commercial vehicles are taxed at a flat 7%) This has the effect of penalizing newer 'green' powered vehicles because right now, they are more expensive.

If the sales tax rate for all transport vehicle types were based on the fuel it used (which is an easily identifiable feature revealed in its serial number), maybe we'd see fewer tiny urban housewives driving huge gas guzzling SUVs. I'm not suggesting a paltry 1% or 2% benefit to go 'a step in the right direction' - I mean if you buy a hydrogen powered vehicle there would be NO tax (GST or PST), a Hybred maybe only 2 or 3%, regular gas 7%, bio-diesel 8 or 9% and regular deisel 10 to 15%.

Let's expand this to everything else. Buy a house that isn't energy efficient? - higher tax - certified energy efficient? - lower tax. Want to convert to an energy efficent system - NO tax on the labour or materials.

Want to install a wind turbine for your electricity? - NO tax. Coal fired energy plant? (Gordo...) Tripple the damn tax.

Is this idea the magic bullet? No, but it's ONE bullet we could use that would have an effect on all of us - right away. Just as govenments have used this method to disourage us all from other choices that are bad for us (e.g. cigarettes) they could easily make bad energy choices prohibitively expensive and good energy choices much more attractive.

After all, WE are the problem - because it's US that choose to drive an SUV vs. a Smartcar (or take transit) - and WE base our decisions pretty much solely on how much it takes out (or not) of OUR pockets.

~ B

Smoking is a more likely culprit

and so is the incredible smog that hangs over southeast Asia for the cancer you described.

Obviously everything we do has to be rethought. Years ago the New Ark Society worked with a small city in New Jersey which had to overhaul its sewage system anyway. They came up with streams from a 10 block(?) area being treated by being run through greenhouses. The science is there for using plants to recover nutrients and metals. The science and design capability are available, the money is not.

Vancouver separated its storm drains recently, a great step in the right direction. It was very expensive, but the old system needed replacing in some parts of town anyway.

This climate crisis is a great opportunity to re-do things with a greener eye. We could start out with re-activating the Bank of Canada's function of creating interest-free money for the revamping of the infrastructure.

Make it a campaign issue.

Alberta

PM Harper may have to spend some of his political capital in Alberta, but he will have to be very careful.
Albertans know how important it is for the CPC to form a majority sometime soon.
That is the most important goal for Conservatives. Harper is already courting Quebec, and it's had little effect on his popularity in the West.
Now in order to take this enviromush off the table, it may be necessary to hit Alberta's economy a little bit. Albertans could probably afford it, but he will have to be very deft, as I am sure he will be.
However, if the Liberals get into power and try to attack Alberta, they will forever regret it. Alberta will separate and the economy of Canada will be severely damaged.
Yes, Mr. Harper has huge support in the West, the Lib's are hated
Bring it on Lib's. Screw with Alberta and you will pay big time.
Bring on the Western Revolution, I would love to see it.

Harper, deft?

You must be joking Ron. Have you seen those ads. The man is a pathetic joke. Even my good friends and relations in Alberta are starting to realize what a disaster this man is for the country. He needs to retire to the University of Calgary where his two of three actual friends still have jobs.

The tar sands should be shut down now before they poison the atmosphere further for no better reason than to keep the SUVs running in the continental United States.

Most Albertans I know are as embarrassed by pee wee as they were by Ralph Klein.

Keep it up Garth

You are like putty in my hands. It's statements like " shut down the tar sands" and "they poison the atmosphere" to " keep SUV's running in the US"
Bring it on. Expose Liberals for what they are and you can count on me and my many friends in Alberta to tell eastern Canada and all Liberals that we are no longer interested in being part of a socialist country anymore.
Keep it up Garth, you are doing a great job. Maybe post some of your thoughts on blogs in Alberta. It would really be helpful.
Bring on a revolution. This enviromush is getting far too silly.
Don't under estimate Alberta. All of Canada depends on them.

Trudeau lives!!!.he is reincarnated as Dion's dog KYOTO :NEP II

Hmm.

Check this out

http://www.bourque.com/notes.html

Scroll to THURS. FEB.1 "A Bourque exclusive"

Check out Federal LIEberal (Ajax Pickering )Mark Holland's interview and how the gist was translated.

Wouldn't surprise me a dam bit.

Federal LIEberal "vote pimps"...they wrote the book !!!

Mask an agenda with something unquantifiable that taps into the public zeitgeist. Details? Shmetails!

Maybe we should truck all the Alberta Tar Sands to Ontario (ie or anywhere EAST of Manitoba)...then we'll see a 180 degree shift ..it metamorphosizes from "environmental" to "political" at some voter critical mass juncture/jurisdiction...right?

Bring it on!

The postive side to all of this coming disaster is that when idiots like Clueless come crawling out of the burbs starving at my door I can feed em a face full of buckshot.

Mark Holland

Hopefully the media in Alberta will keep this story alive and Albertans will see the "hidden Agenda" of the Liberal Party, to screw Alberta. But on the other hand, they already know this.
Jealousy is the key word here and maestro is right on the mark. If the oil sands were in Ontario it would be a completely different story.
We have seen the hypocrisy when any suggestion of hurting car makers in Ontario by making them pay some kind of carbon tax.
I am disappointed with the many liberal western posters on this site are so pro eatern. Go figure.

Garf West, life sure is a bitch.

Garf West, life sure is a bitch is when you haven’t any dirt on the one who you so despise, isn’t Garf?. Unable to substantiate any hard facts or criticism, alternatively then, attack the character, make up false innuendos , attempt to demean, no wonder you and Cretchen hit it off.

Garf West says,

Sure, first shut down the Vancouver Airport down to one flight per day, allow only 7 sailings a week to the Island, shut down Roberts Bank, the Vancouver ports, then the Tar sands will shut down due lack of demand, clean up your own back yard Garf before you start suggesting it to someone else. While Im on a roll, keep your garbage and crap there as well.

Eureka !!!

If you want to save the world and clean up the environment,yada yada yada start HERE in Canada , ....get rid of the Federal LIEberals...errr TAX TAX TAX anyone or anything that either runs for the LIEberal Party or votes for them.

Let both nature and a more natural political equilibrium get seeded and evolve...... then we'll see some ACTUAL results versus this faded political whore house.

It is our ONLY Hope.

I'm all for shutting down Vancouver airport too woodrow

We've already had this discussion, remember?

And you want more on Mr Harper's lies and obfuscations and changes of heart.

Start with this little item woodrow:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/01/30/harper-kyoto.html

And Ron, stop calling me a Liberal. I belong to no political party.

Guess you guys didn't read the Tyee sideboard a while back

If you had, you'd have learned how folks get headlines on Bourque's little website - they pay for them.

Not too big a surprise for a party that thinks it's a great idea to pay for horrendously expensive attack ads against Stephane Dion during the superbowl tomorrow as a way to burn off extra cash from their corporate friends that the new election laws won't let the conmen spend legally as part of a declared election. Oh the Liberals couldn't teach these guys any tricks at all. They learned how to cheat, steal and obfuscate at the feet of masters.

These are sleazy people. How could anyone in partnership with John Reynolds be anything but?

A Wake up Call

I know that was a rather brutal statement generally not in keeping with my essentially non-violent approach, but I did it deliberately as a wake up call. If we don't start doing something about global warming right now, if we don't plan for Peak Oil we will find ourselves in a state of universal civil war. As everything breaks down, the minority that refused to acknowledge these problems, that refused to prepare for it, will be in desperate straights. They will attempt to pillage those who have prepared. Furthermore , of highly authoritarian and even fascistic ideology, they will justify their predation. Somehow they will blame us, the environmentally aware, for the terrible situation they face. If there are no serious positive changes in the next few years, the aware people must be prepared to defend themselves against these predators.

Ok Ok Ok

Ok Ok Ok I get it....

You are not a "De Jure" LIEberal...but a "De Facto" LIEberal.

Ok Ok Ok...

So..let me get this straight...if its FREE/GRATIS its 100 % pure....no agenda..but if you PAY for it its tainted.

So it should, "legally speaking" have a "warning label" because the Public can't separate out fact - from -fiction ,....truth-from -lies...nor sniff out evidence of agendas by connecting the dots.,.... especially based on past precedents , past practice, past experience, yada yada .. and seeing it's almost politically genetic.

How do you know when a LIEberal is LIE-ing (well you know the punch line...)

Didn't the LIEberals lose due to paying for ads in Quebec....Ahha I get it!

PS....It's been nice Straw -man -ing with ya...

One flight per day in and

One flight per day in and out of Vancouver, plus the grounding and junking of 90% of military aircrafts all over the world would be a great start. Not to mention the sacking of 99% of generals, and economists.

But let's be generous and allow 10 flights, after all some of the people who fly do have legitimate, but not business reasons.

Then we can start building up locally based, small, low investment, private enterprise production systems.

Ed Deak.

sounds good to me Ed

How about with you woodrow?

maestro

So much for getting rid of "Liquidator's Worlds" then, right? People want a deal.

You will have to ask Ed. He seems to be alive and kicking. And then there are co-ops.............

speaking of military aircraft

How about starting with those speading chemtrails. They are pretending it is for sunscreen, but it's really about carrying radio waves. Also, HAARP is capable of bombarding the ionisphere causing stratospheric winds to dip to earth.

BTW. HAARP went to full power for the first time 4 minutes before the big power failure in the East two years ago.

Nuclear

Snert:
Using nuclear power to produce tar sands oil is "so bad". If the stuff is so hard to extract just leave it where it is.

In the short term nuclear power could help to put off the inevitable, and give time to make real changes in our use of resources but if there is no commitment to actual change and the nukes are only to perpetuate (and increase) the eventual problem The plants should not be built. Better to run out of oil sooner and make the difficult adjustment than to pump the gas and make this antiquated wreck of an economy keep barrelling on.

We have 120 acres, and have

We have 120 acres, and have built our organic garden over 4" of sod and then clay and rocks to China. No topsoil at all. We're sitting on a rockpile, marked on official maps as "not suitable for agriculture". When we bought the land, it wasn't even in the ALR and we had to fight for its inclusion.

We worked it up on a shoestring budget, made our own deep topsoil with greenmanuring etc. and made it fertile for gardens. At one time we must have had about an acre, or more, of market garden, but now only have 1/4. We can't plant anything safely before June and can expect frost every summer month.

So, we have to know what we can grow, how to grow it and sometimes take our losses. It took a lot of experimentation, as we were green and clueless on what to do under these circumstances, but the taste of chemical free vegies and berries brought back the tastes of our childhoods, after 24 years of supermarket, chemical garbage sold as vegetables.

Not to mention the taste of our eggs and meats. Hundreds of millions of people on Earth have never tasted decent, healthy and good tasting food and have no idea what crap they're being fed with by agribiz.

Ed Deak.

RickW

Hey...I'm the first one to say there is so much crap produced that keeps places like Liquidation World etc. in business.

I am at the Antique places and 2nd Hand stores as a First Choice...

Actually, much of the everyday clothes I wear are from a reliable source at Thrift shops...many of them look near mint and new...you'll only see me in the Mall usually twice a year..Xmas and Birthdays.

As Beresford noted earlier...re: incentives to encourage "go - green " and/or taxes to penalize certain "non- green ". However, I can see the first ugly solar panel or say a windmill in someone's back yard in a residential neighbourhood having the neighbour or neighbours shite...hence the " Curb Appeal " comment. Try doing this in subdivisions with Bylaws in place re: aesthetics.

Or...a Spotted Owl hits the blades and someone(likley an enviro) Molotovs the other enviro -person's house...you know the routine... ie nice in theory...impractical in practice. Make sure the fire insurance is paid up.

Best wishes and good luck if it works for the individual , but " tars and feathers " impositons on others will often backfire.

Re Airport limitations mentioned earlier...

Suggestion : hand an enviro- brochure to the people who work at the Airport (especially if on your weekly trip to Cuba the socialist Valhalla ) when you are catching a flight out...I am sure they will look kindly on your thoughtfulness re the environment and the sacrifices THEY must make from YOUR armchair pulpit. Just hope they don't have a friend or relative in Customs or Security who coincidentally gives you a 3- hour "cavity search" anywhere within 5 ft. near thine bleeding heart.

Just some advice...N/C...and maybe time to get a new armchair pulpit from the Thrift shop...

Brain Fart

A few trees fall over in Lord Stanley park, the sea wall is broken up, lets rebuild the bright lights say, huh, how does one rebuild fallen trees, mother nature will rebuild, and with sustainable trees. . But of course the bright lights want to replant with probably something like pussy willow. Had those bright lights from the Vancouver parks boards not cut that prime timber into firewood lengths there may have been another 2 million bucks. Now, to global warming, The big winds that hit the coast , this is just the first of much more to come, so say the experts, my question why bother replanting those trees, as sure as hell there going to get knocked over 5, 10 ,20 years from now. Rebuild the sea wall that’s the best brain fart, the experts tell us the sea levels are raising around the world, some areas faster and greater then other areas, never the less its going up ,so what’s next build a dyke to protect the sea wall. How is it that the Vancouver Parks Board can tamper in ecological sensitive areas such as the shore lines, when there has been a new Riparian law passed, that disallows with the tampering ,building ,removal, etc in all fresh water, salt water areas. This sea wall bullsh!t is illegal. How come all the Greens are not up in arms about this travesty.

Conservative Green Plans

Is the Conservative Party's only green intitiative to slag the Liberal Party? That is all I hear from Harper, yet he is now in power and doing less then nothing. Obviously Harper is no dummy, however his green policy, or lack thereof, in the face of increasing climate change, is truly insane. There he was on TV yesterday telling us Canadians can't give up their cars or turn off their heat in the Winter, with the implication that therefore nothing can be done. What unmitigated nonsense, who voted for these dimwits. How about conservation measures such as reduced speed limits, or more public transit instead of Gateway foolishness? How about teleconferencing etc. etc.
If Harper thinks Kyoto is a job and economy killer, he should talk to the residents of Tuvalu who are being forced to move to New Zealand. Due to global warming and rising seas there economy and jobs are 100% dead.
Did I ask who voted for these shining lights?

Harper thinks Kyoto is a job

Everyone knows Kyoto is a dog, born from Liberals fornicating the canine.

Ah! A Doubting Maestro.....

However, I bow to your pragmatic observations & conclusions. People have so-o-o-o much of their very lifeblood tied up in a useless piece of residential real estate that a solar panel or windmill on their neighbour's lawn (or a front yard of carrots) would incite some to murder most foul if they thought it would affect their house price adversely.

"Fortunately" for those who would try a little "self-sufficiency" ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/g/goodlifethe_7772855.shtml ), they needn't fear murder & mayhem, as muncipal councilors and local police would ensure that the useless piece of real estate retains its primacy.

maestro....the last time I

maestro....the last time I flew was to a convention, from Vancouver to Calgary and back. That was in 1968 and never want to see another plane again.

People who work in environmentally unfriendly jobs, like airports, gas stations and oil fields for commuters, etc. have been forced out of sustainable jobs by miseducated economists and warped minded and bought politicians.

They are cost transfers on the environment, for "cost cutting", in reality, "cost increasing" purposes. A good way to dismiss and account liabilities as assets.

I flew out of Vancouver a few times in the '60s. The first time, the building was about the size of a large house and it should have remained that size.

Now, if you could tear yourself away from silly cliches, like "Cuba, the socialist Valhalla", perhaps somebody would take you seriously.

Ed Deak.

Stanley Park:

In Stanley Parks re-birth what laws do apply? Good point.

The Seawall was completed years ago...isn't it much like a building permit.. the current laws apply, not he ones in existence prior to upcoming renovation ?

Nah ....forget it...too emotional...

If not mistaken don't the FEDS own it ?, technically Vancouver is leasing it?, maybe someone can clarify ?

What if they find First Nations artifacts in the process ...hoo boy, can you say Land Claim ? Sorry boys and girls just the messenger.
========================================

In hindsight and further reflection...I say give the whole Stanley Park approx. 1000 acres BACK to the First Nations...lets get the ball rolling RIGHT NOW....man ,....the land would sure be prime for development , world class location, no likely THE BEST.

A WIN WIN WIN...

Go for it...no sweat off my back...start the chainsaws.

Ed:

Ed:

...why did it take you so much work to convince the powers that be to include your land in the ALR if it wasn't included originally?

Is your property now an island of ALR amongst Non ALR,....or contiguous with adjoining ALR,.... or was it a soil rating agri-viability issue.

What was the status(ie Zoning -categorization ) of your land prior to its ALR inclusion ?

I have no idea why it wasn't

I have no idea why it wasn't included, as it is surrounded by ALR lands. Some excellent lands, around here were also excluded, probably as political patronage, and subdivided by the owners.

In any case, as I said before, it is a beautiful rockpile of some meadows, forests , small ponds and swamps.

Our oldest Douglas fir is about 400 and we still have 10 or 12 up to 250-300. The trees can't put their roots into the ground, but spread them under the sod over wide distances on account of the clay and rocks.

As we have been calculating and expecting an economic and environmental breakdown for over 40 years, in reality, haven't trusted any system since WW2, we wanted to get out of the city before it killed us and at the same time, to find out what can be done in a harsh climate and no topsoil situation? We did it and loved every minute.

I fell in love with the Cariboo when I first saw it on a car rally, around Clinton, in 1960, an my wife, when I first brought her and the family up on a camping trip in 1963. We both felt we "came home".

We bought our first lakeshore properties in 1969 and from there all we could think of was, living in the Cariboo. We bought this land in 1975 and moved here in 1979.

To make it more interesting and incomprehensible for any good capitalist, we gave it away to a family in exchange for looking after us till the end, now under joint ownership, working out very well, with everybody happy.

The reason we put it into the ALR was to prevent its subdivision and destruction by "developers".

The ALR may be wrecked by TILMA and the rest of the conspiracies, but I think, our friends appreciate this land as much as we do and won't let it get ruined.

We may be dreamers, but very practical ones , who can think, but also build what we have thought out.

Ed Deak.

Ed:

Ed:

The question was one I had meant to ask a while back....you previous posts on this topic about creating good soil reminded me.

I often review the ALC web-site and its quasi-judicial proceedings.

I did come across one that the ALC actually refused to include a piece of land in the ALR, as the ALC also has protocol for an application for ALR INclusion. One part of the ALC decision made mention that it would serve no purpose to include the applicant property in the ALR based on the surroundng area...implying an ALR island.

My educated guess as to why your property was not included in the ALR originally (and also that surrounding properties are included) is likely due to the Local Gov't AG(Agricultural) Zoning at the time...and that yours was not zoned as such because perhaps it had some other non Agri- use.

Old records at the CRD , BC Assessment etc. would verify it...but it is interesting as to why it was not included originally.

Registered

anarcho

I hope that's registered buckshot. Plus this coming disaster won't be happening in your lifetime.

OUR CHARTER HARD AT WORK, AGAIN

People when you have the chance check out the,Transsexual Loses Fight with Women's Shelter, story. Compliments of Pierres charter.

Nuclear power.

doggone

The adjustments are already being made as we speak. The trouble is that people just don't bother to connect the dots. One of the reasons BC Hydro hasn't had to run out and build more dams is because of energy conservation moves made by most user groups.

That is not to say that enough is being done just that it is happening. This antiquated wreck of an economy is not going to fall apart any time soon. There is still ample energy that if used wisely could sustain a reasonable facsimile of what we have now years.

Nuclear power is a viable option when used to replace CO2 producing generating plants. In the case of the tar sands they would be used to produce heat instead of burning natural gas.

All the waste from Canada's current nuclear facilities since start up is supposed to be no more than a regulation sized hockey rink filled to the top of the boards. This is not an unmanageable amount.

Canada is a big country. Plants can be located away from populated areas and although accidents can happen Chernobyl is an unlikely event at least with the Candu system.

There are sacrifices to be made for any type of system such as major environmental damage caused by hydro dams but all options should be used to reduce the emissions of CO2. Why not? It just makes sense.

Work on population reduction and we may be able to carry on for many more years.

maestro.... whatever the

maestro.... whatever the reason, we wanted to prove that food can be grown on most lands and we have done it, therefore it should be encouraged, no people pushed off their lands to satisfy corporate finagling. It is happening all around us, with old time ranching families going broke.

We thought we were Ok when we moved here, and started building a large house, but we never got paid for a business we sold and have lived, 3 of us, with our son, virtually penniness, in 3 tiny cabins totalling 300 sq.ft. without Hydro, running water, refrigeration, contracting and building custom furniture with a small generator, for 8 1/2 years.

Yet, at the same time we built fertile garden land and raised food for ourselves and many others.

Ed Deak.

Ed:

Thanks Ed:

You have outlined your life story and your journeys in past TYEE posts, and I must say it is one of the most fascinating ones I have ever come across.

Sounds much like a person I knew who had a chance to listen to Neil Armstrong ( U.S. Astronaut and First man on the moon) give a speech re: reasons for his own success in life.

Neil said he owes his success mostly to PERSERVERANCE , he was actually not the original first choice as astronaut for the moon mission , but he perservered, became THE top choice, and proved any doubters wrong.

Again ....PERSERVERANCE !!!.

How much land per family?

Ed

As usual your theories stand up to a limited amount of scrutiny but just how much land per family are you talking about and how many children are we going to have to help us with our subsistence farms and what steps are going to have to be taken to avoid inbreeding because we can't travel as much and who is going to make sure that we don't fall into a form of tribal government and on and on....

My mother grew up overlooking the Fraser River near Victoria Dr in Vancouver and they had a cow and some chickens but the cow needs pasture. How much forest is going to have to be cleared to feed that stupid cow....now?

Estimates of the numbers of pre-Columbian peoples in NA runs from 1 to 11 million people. That population consisted of both agrarians and hunter gatherers. Why wasn't it larger?

As usual there are a lot of great sounding ideas put forth in this forum but the big question should always be, what if everybody did it. Is the idea still practical? Unfortunately most don't hold up.

Population 'estimates'

Good estimates of the New World's population in 1492 range from 57 - 112 million.
Thornton, Russell. 1987. American Indian Holocoust and Survival. Norman: University of Olkahoma Press pp 22 - 25

as usual, snert

You don't know what you're talking about.

Humanity survived for

Humanity survived for millions of years, thousands in agriculture and 2-3 hundred in the Industrial Revolution, which is now killing it with fraudulent accounting.

I don't believe in forcing anybody to do anything, but at the same time, I find it criminal when ideologial economists are forcing people from being productive members of society and into self and environmentally destructive occupations, the call it "efficient" and "productive".

The destruction of the family farm is one of the biggest crimes in history, second only to the teachings of neoclassical market economics.

Bring a neoclassical economics professor on this blog, being Cambridge myself, I love crucifying Oxford types and watch for the fireworks. I played games with a few on worldwide economics forums.

People haven't travelled for hundreds of thousands of years and did very well. When we add the comforts modern technology, applied to the benefit of humanity, as opposed to "investors", the present travelling hysteria can go to hell.

By the way, I've lived in 4 countries, had 3 citizenships, my wife in 5 with 4. The only citizenship we treasure is our Canadian one and have been registered voters in BC for 51 years.

In other words, maestro's perseverance is OK, but I've also been the beneficiary of an incredible series of luck.

This is what I'm paying off, and for, in these debates.

Now I close this machine for tonight.

Ed Deak.

Earth has survived

Earth Has survived far longer than mankind has. Earth took hits from nature for millions of years before mankind even showed up. the changes earth went through before we ever came to party was incredible. Dinosaurs, glaciers, the sun being blocked by the dust from volcano's, sun flares, perhaps aliens from outer space.
Man is so vain and full of self importance. Thinking we are like the Wizard of Oz, controlling everything including the weather.
This is all about taking down the West standard of living and sending it somewhere that won't do anything but waste it.
We have worked too hard to be ripped off by socialists.
This enviromush scam must be exposed for what it is.
We won't go down quietly.

The epitaph of tyrants

You’re the one who needs exposing Ron. From Egypt, Babylon and Macedonia, from Sparta, through the Roman Empire, up through Byzantium, Napoleon, the Prussians, the British Imperium, the Nazi hegemony, the Soviets and now the Americans.

All of you corrupt and fraudulent and desperately anxious to hang on to the proceeds of theft from the people and the natural world – which are the only legitimate sources of real wealth.

You are an anachronism. A member of a corrupt dead system waiting to fall like that stupid statue of Saddam Hussein. What will blow it over? Who knows? Nevertheless, it will collapse and all the nonsense you and your little heroes on Fox news talk about in your fevered dreams won't stop it.

Of course, you won't go quietly. Tyrants never do.

Alky go to bed already!

Alky why don't you put it to bed you OBS.

Check the numbers again.

G West

I used NA figures you used "New World" figures. Apples to apples. Get on the same wavelength.

The Decline of the American Empire

Alci; I know you want to see America crash and burn, but it not going to be easy.
America has the power now.
Now I would rather see America having power more than any of the alternatives I can see.
I am glad you think the statue of SH was stupid.
George Bush doesn't have statues all over the nation.
Mao did, Stalin did, Blair didn't, Fidel? Hugo Chavez? Get out the sculpture's, in South America, we have a job to do.
Monuments a plenty, power to the people ( the ones that agree with Chavez ) are coming to town.
I know we have our share of statues and monuments, but they cam far after the events. These despots are erecting them daily.

Turn out the Lights

Around $6 billion will go to Ottawa from earnings in the Alberta oil sector. Plus many more billions from the development expenditures. Some in the NDP and some Liberals are saying slow it, or shut it down. Were they to, the loss of earnings would affect equalization capabilities and other Federal expenditures. Alberta would go ballistic and so would Quebec if the equalization payments had to be reduced. Quebec and others would go even more ballistic if it would be decided that tax dollars for development of nuclear power were to be the replacement because nobody would start up a generating station without huge subsidies.

Even if nuclear seems the option, the time from, concept, approval, through design, building, to grid on-line would probably be at least five years.

Meanwhile, what does BC do? Stop exporting 25 million tons of coal per year to China to save the planet? Look for energy imports elsewhere since Alberta will no longer be the supplier?

Wind, solar and conservation can reduce demand but the rest are out there in the distant future.

Bourque

I don't think the Conservatives had to pay Bourque to run the Mark Holland story. Bourque picked it up from Adler On-Line. He's a frequent guest.

http://www.cjob.com/shows/adler.aspx?mc=63072

It'll be interesting to see if seperatism rises in Alberta.

http://www.partyofalberta.org/

The Native Holocaust

The Native genocide didn't just take place in North America. One fifth of the human race lived in the Americas at Columbus' time. Central Mexico alone had a population of 25 million. In 1492 the British Isles had a population of 5 million, Spain around 8 million.

By 1600 less than a tenth of the Americas' 1492 population survived - probably 90 million had died, directly or indirectly, as a result of the European invasion. If that doesn't qualify as a Holocaust, nothing does.

Ron

You wouldn't know an alternative if you met it in your soup.

I don't hate Americans or want to bring them down. I dislike the American Empire and its own faults and arrogance are bringing it down on its own. And I believe in telling it like it is - something you apparently couldn't care less for.

Since George Bush, no honest man can still call American hegemony a force for good. It seems unlikely that it ever was - it certainly isn't now.

Realisticman - I have no idea where that particular story came from. I do know that Bourque has about as much credibility as Glen Beck and Headline News.

Another Conspiracy

As for RickW and others that imagine that the Conservatives and the BC Liberals are using the environment story as a diversion from other issues, precious to them. Silly myopic you!

This story is on the front page all over the world, from Austria, the U.K., the Czech Republic, Bazil, etc. Do you really think Gordon Campbell orchestrated it? Ha!

http://www.newseum.org/todaysfrontpages/

Bourque

It doesn't matter what Pierre Bourque's credibility is, it wasn't his story. He just picked it up. Go to the Adler link and listen to Mark Holland's voice say the words that Bourque reported.

Realisticman

I've listened to adler. He's crazy as a loon - if Bourque is picking up stuff from him he might as well be taking money from the Conservatives themselves. The man is the Canadian equivalent of Rush Limbaugh - a complete nut.

We wouldn't be getting lied to, would we?

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=63ab844f-8c55-4059-9ad8-89de085af353&k=0

Dunno

It's a dead link snert - presumably you had a point.

Adler Western Man

He's from Winnipeg. He has the ball on this attack by liberals on Alberta.
That's his mission.
Run with it Charles. It's an assignment for you by us popular masses. Engage the east with an intelligent dialogue.
Put those eastern bastards feet to the fire. They deserve it.

And you call yourself a Canadian

Nothing could be further from the truth. I could care less where Adler's from. He's a bigot and a dissembler. I'm not surprised you'd like him Ron. He's kind of a mini-Rush.

Is he on Occicontin too? I spent 2 hours of my life listening to him at your suggestion once Ron. He is no journalist, that's for sure. I'm surprised any successful radio station is able to sell ads around his show Still, I guess there's quite a market for red neck gear in Alberta.

Just for you Ed

I thought you'd appreciate the irony of this story from tomorrow's New York Times.

Here's the link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/washington/04contract.html?ei=5094&en=5a19d7cad91cd66d&hp=&ex=1170651600&adxnnl=1&partner=homepage&adxnnlx=1170576622-rJ4kd36a8R1GYOM6Po2EPQ

And here, to set the tone, is the first two or three paragraphs:

WASHINGTON, Feb. 3 — In June, short of people to process cases of incompetence and fraud by federal contractors, officials at the General Services Administration responded with what has become the government’s reflexive answer to almost every problem.

They hired another contractor.

It did not matter that the company they chose, CACI International, had itself recently avoided a suspension from federal contracting; or that the work, delving into investigative files on other contractors, appeared to pose a conflict of interest; or that each person supplied by the company would cost taxpayers $104 an hour. Six CACI workers soon joined hundreds of other private-sector workers at the G.S.A., the government’s management agency.

The New York Times is bleeding

Need I say more?
This liberal publication is so full of B.S. that it's becoming apparent to everyone. The CBC is not far off.
The NYT is actually going out of business. Oh how I cry at the thought (NOT). This liberal institution is the old MSM ( Main stream media ) toasted like they should be.
Self loathing American liberals are dangerously compromising our standard of living by siding with the despots in Iran and Syria.
I hope the NYT goes out of business, or changes to a chronicle of our times without a liberal bias.

Standard of living?

You call that kind of ignorance living?

As always Ron, I can't possibly imaging how it's possible to continue to live in the real world and hold attitudes like yours. The only person doing any loathing is you; because you can't stand the truth. Pathetic.

In the immortal words of Forrest Gump, 'Stupid is as stupid does.'

Try again.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=63ab844f-8c55-4059-9ad8-89de085af353&k=0

We wouldn't be getting lied to, would we?

snert:

Thanks snert!

Good article:

As the saying goes...follow the money $$$$....

I wonder if all those cigarette company scientists who once acted as deniers for the Tobacco industry have now shifted into another PhD Hessian mode and are now in a long line up for Grant $$$ from Gov'ts to study this problem...errr...phenomenon...err issue further.

Any one know where Suzuki's bus is as we speak?

I always enjoy reading

I always enjoy reading complaints about so called "liberals" undermining "wealth creation".

Proving that people, like our local village idiot, Ron, are dreaming about and praying for the coming fascist, corporate dictatorship, while calling it "democracy".

Nothing new, they inherited it from the other great collectivizer, Josip Dzhugashvili, who also declared "socialists", the greatest enemy of communist democracy and hunted them down.

Neither is it a surprise that, being brothers under the skin, both communists and capitalists hate and try to silence environmentalists, now calling them "eco terrorists".

So now people who're destroying the Earth for profits are the good guys and those who try to save it are the terrorists?

Makes a lot of sense in the vocabulary of all good fascist wealth creator.

Ed Deak.

Re: Ripping up the Front Lawn

An e-mail sent to me on the subject:
http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2007/02/02/noise-furnace.html

Goats are better than cows for small family acreage. Excellent brush clearers. Milk and products from milk are far more digestible. The manure is better cause it is so well broken down by the time if comes out of the goat that it carries no nasty weed seeds, that end up in your garden. Barns don't need to be large.......

Re: the comment someone made about a "bad year"....besides ensuring that you have a good quantity stored (canned, smoked, something like jerky or pemmican comes to mind)...how about trading?

Please stop playing with your poop. Meanwhile, back in...

Sunday, February 4

A Bourque Exclusive

LIB MP HOLLAND: "THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES"
When will the Mainstream Media start covering the Liberal Agenda?
by Charles Adler

As I apply my ink stained fingers to the trusty keyboard, it's been more than 72 hours since Mark Holland, the Liberal Natural Resources critic, belched out the most threatening words I have heard in a political conversation in years.

But for some reason the Mainstream Media has seen them not worthy of attention.

Pierre Bourque of the Bourque Newswatch asked me to scribble my thoughts on the interview with the Liberal MP which contained serious threats to the Western Canadian economy all in the name of respecting Kyoto.

When I asked Holland whether a Liberal government under Stephane Dion would shut down or limit oil sands production if necessary to meet Kyoto targets, his response was, "Exactly." He then went on to say "I think what you are going to see is we're going to say you cannot exploit that resource, basically go in there and pump it out as fast as you can to give it to the Americans and sell out our national interests and blow apart our emissions targets."

I want to give credit where credit is due. Lorne Gunter of the Edmonton Journal in his Sunday Feb 4 column did write about this. But is Lorne Gunter in the only mainstream journalist/columnist in the country who thinks this is newsworthy? Is he the only one who understands what it would mean to the economy of Western Canada and ultimately the entire national economy to tell the energy producers to STOP developing the oilsands, to just tell the guys with the dozers to take their "filthy work ethic" to the unemployment line. Is Gunter the only one who understands the message Stephan Dion's government would send to the capital markets about the unworthiness of investing in the Canadian Energy Industry? Is Gunter the only one who gets how this would level a frontal assault on the Toronto Stock Exchange where so much of what we call growth is dependent on a healthy Oil patch? Is Gunter the only one who gets that this would create an attack on our dollar?

Now perhaps the mainstream media feels that this is not a good time to second guess the fantasies of the Opposition Natural Resources critic. After all Dion and his crew are supposedly on the right side of the Kyoto angels. Perhaps waving a red flag at Alberta is considered the right thing to do in Western Canada. Why dwell on the obvious cause of CO2 emissions in Ontario and Quebec, the fact that half the population of the country, lives, works and drives there?

It's much easier for Liberals to demagogue the issue and pretend that it is ALBERTA energy that embarasses Canada in the hallowed shrine of Kyoto. Perhaps one ought to stop giving the mainstream media excuses for ignoring Mark Hollands sourgas? Maybe it's the oldest reason in the hills. Holland is to the left of the Canadian centre. Does anyone doubt that if a member of Harper's gang were to say something that came right out of rightfield that might be embraassing to the leadership that it would find itself planted firmly on the front pages as well as the teleprompters of Mansbridge, Robertson and Newman?

Warren Kinsella, who was interviewed on Adler on Line after Mark Holland offered his emissions, said he coudln't believe what Holland was saying and thought the Liberal brain trust would immediately disown this stuff.

But they haven't.

Perhaps it is because if the mainstream media don't seize on an event, the Liberal mandarins have no reason to think it ever really happened. Kinsella said that the Liberals need to be reminded that it was a Liberal Government after having reviewed environmental impact studies that approved the initial exploration of the oil sands in 1967 and that successive Liberal governments went on to approve the expansion of that exploration not once, but twice in 1978 and again in 1983.

A day after Mark Holland's threatening remarks, he appeared on my Corus colleague Dave Rutherford's program and was asked whether a Dion government would consdier nationalizing oil companies if they didn't meet Kyoto standards. Holland replied, "If they refuse to work with us....there will be consequences."

On the same day Holland fired this new shot not across but into the bow of Alberta, the former premier of the province, Ralph Klein told my radio audience, "I have a message for the honourable member from Ajax Pickering. Stay out of our business." Klein may no longer have political power. But nobody should doubt that if the Dion-Holland Liberals plan to put a clamp on the continued growth of the Alberta economy, the price to pay for all of us will be enormous.

At the moment, we need to ask the question, "What price are we paying for the Mainstream Media's cold blooded decision to ignore the Liberal agenda."

Charles Adler is the host of Adler on Line on the Corus Radio Network
Listen to Adler's interview with Mark Holland by logging on to www.charlesadler.com
Contact him through his website or email him at

.

Important Election coming

The Québec election campaign will sonn be underway. Charest's natural supporter, Dion, may well have a low profile since he's carrying sponsorship baggage. Harper will try and help Charest, knowing that his support in the later federal election is what Harper desperatly needs. Charest will have a strong machine that could fill-in for the conservatives weak Québec one.

The green theme might have to take a back seat because this election will probably focus on Québec's growth, through fiscal 'rebalancing', courtesy of Harpers largess. No politician wants to go into an election asking voters to turn down their thermostats or pay more for energy. Boisclair will be further weakened if he spouts fiscal federal screwing while Ottawa tosses cash to the provincial treasury and contracts with jobs to Québec companies.

Harper will be keeping his fingers crossed and hoping for a good fall, or spring 08, election. Dion will have sit and watch, since he can't really support the P.Q., can he?

Shot across the bow of Alberta

How soon they forget.

Alberta was bankrupt during the thirties and wouldn't have survived without the aid of Ontario Farmers and fruit growers and Newfoundland (not even a part of Canada then) fishermen.

Maybe it's time to get rid of provincial divisions altogether. Albertans seem too parochial these days anyway. I frequently mistake them for Americans.

If Adler thinks pumping increasing amounts of CO2 and pollutants into the air and the rivers of this country for the benefit of Americans is a good thing for the national government to ignore maybe he should move to Arizona.

What a bunch of traitors.

realisticman

You should start reading the Toronto Star. It's a much better paper than any of the local rags and you'd have seen this:

http://www.thestar.com/article/176377

on January 31.

The Star in our midst

I read Chantal, and James Travers, regularly. I read that article last week. I still think Dion will keep a low profile.

You say, "Maybe it's time to get rid of provincial divisions altogether.". I'd like to know how that could be done.

I do read the Sun, usually takes about five minutes, and I'm a slow reader. The Globe and the Post come in too. Occasionally, I'll pick up the Straight to see what the fringe is claiming outrage over. I also scan the NYT, the Independant, The Guardian and certain columnists. Then I settle back and read my New Yorker or The Atlantic or Harpers that I'm given by an old friend. Numerous trade mags come in and I do have subscriptions to two hobby mags. It's tough to get through when one runs one's own business and has to work seven days a week.

I know the feeling!

I'm not quite sure how we'd get rid of provinces realisticman - but I think we're becoming such an urban nation that something more rational needs to happen. Britain gets by without them and it's a far bigger agglomeration of folks than we are. Hell, London itself has nearly half of Canada's population.

The current jurisdictional mess just leads to stupid empire building and pointless squabbles. There ought to be a better way.

I pretty much concur with your reading list - but I won't touch the National Post or the Sun - I do enjoy the Wall Street Journal now and then and I read the Times of London and the New York Review of Books when I can find the time.

Which is, as you note, always a problem.

There are a couple of columnists at the LA Times (Niall Ferguson on Mondays is one) I always read as well.

Someone please explain this phenomenon...SVP:

I seem to recall there are only 2 LIEberal MP's in ALBERTA.

Is it just my perception ...or do Albertans have something against Federal LIEberals?

Assuming that Albertans for whatever reason hate the Federal LIEberal F'n guts(gee..maybe someone can tell us why??? )the LIEberals, via reciprocation, will follow the Political Kyoto accord...ie not waste it's LIEberal energy and resources in currying Alberta's favour.

As stated previously, one day the last molecule of Fossil(...oops sorry Truman) h-y-d-r-o-c-a-r-b-o-n fuel will be pumped out. So, what to do for the Au - Natural Governing Federal LIEberal party ? Let Alberta enjoy prosperity while it lasts?

The LIEberal leopard is the last to change its spots and the LIEberals will dust off the old bag of tricks...read NEP and sub in " KYOTO " et al (no...not the dog) throughout the old text.

Any way you slice it its still LIEberal baloney. Plunder while the gettin is good. What are they going to do out on East Coast's Hibernia ? Anything? The LIEberals will still somehow wonder why they can't win in the Eastern Canada colony called Alberta.

PS Maybe if Alberta changes its name to Que'Tario or Ont-Bec it can ward of the LIEberal zombies.

Getting rid of Provinces?

G West:

BTW MOST, if not all of Great Britain could be squeezed into the area of BC which lies South of Prince George.

In addition...The Non- Irish and Non Scottish part of Great Britain ie the part that contains London could be squeezed into Washington State.

Get rid of Provinces?

Option #1 : ...one BIG country ??? No thanks. We already have that de-facto...no sense encouraging the status- quo any more...

Option #2: Well ,I am sure you know what that is...

Tyee is just the 1st Step

One reason mainstream news media doesn't pay attention to alternative views is because people complain, but they don't take real action.

It might feel good to rant here on The Tyee, but it is only the first step, and your voice is primarily heard only on this forum, which is good, but realistically it is only a start.

I'm not suggesting that you get out on the street and protest, because that is old school. Instead get on your computer and start spreading your views and the good ideas you hear on The Tyee to everyone you can think of, including friends, colleagues, bosses, government reps, etc. For example, take this Tyee article and pass it on, and ask everyone in your circle and beyond what they think.

Don't forget too that you have to put your name on it. Anonymous whining is just noise. If you really believe what you're saying identify yourself.

The title of the article above is "Will Voters Turn Politicians Green?"

It won't happen unless you expand this circle to a global audience. Your individual view is only heard when its channeled through a larger forum, and The Tyee my friends is only the beginning, not the end.

Never forget too that if you want to have an impact you also have to offer a solution.

Mainstream media has a completely different agenda than what most people think, and I can tell by most responses on The Tyee, that most of you don't understand how mainstream news media revenue is generated. If you really expect to have an impact regarding any contentious issue you have to first learn how and why news media operate before you can even begin to turn their big ship.

Cheers,

Maurice Cardinal

P.S. If you're interested in seeing how an effective campaign to impact mainstream news media works click this link;
http://www.olyblog.com/06/ShawLeeS09282006.shtml

Rick W

Farmer RickW

I'm not sure were you live, but your Urban Agri endeavour should perhaps be researched a bit more at the Local Gov't level.

If you wish to raise livestock....like goats...you may not be allowed via Local ByLaws. For Example...one GVRD Local Gov't sets the benchmark at a pure 1/2 acre....you are allowed livestock ( see individual Local Gov't definitions )on the ONE animal per 1/2 acre...but starting at a 1/2 acre minumum.

Careful re animal rights groups...hate to see yer photo on the front page. (Also, City Halls tend to clamp down on dog and pony issues while people starve and are homeless).

I won't go into possible theft issues...if them tomatoes are looking red n'plump ...keep the Pit Bull hungry. Tomatoes and other hard -earned personally- farmed garden produce don't tend to grow feet nor attract sticky fingers in these types of situations.

RE: Canning etc....yeah ,that's an idea...some members of our family are still into it. Mostly for hobby.

If we worry about the

If we worry about the "capital markets" we'll never get anywhere. They're controlled by the biggest crooks in
history, stealing the world blind.

Their first task is to search, destroy and enslave with artificial money, in the name of wealth creation. Yes, into their own pockets.

The purpose of foreign inverstment is to inflate the money supply of another country and then use it to take control of its economy.

Canada never needed a single penny of foreign investment and doesn't need any now.

When we have a well, full of water and a pump that needs priming to get the water out, and we borrow a bottle of water from a neighbour to prime the pump, does it entitle the neighbour to all the water in the well?

Like hell it does. Anybody who believes this must be crazy.

As we watch long lines of overloaded ore trucks taking our wealth abroad, while breaking up our roads and our government gives them taxbreaks to do it.

Each of those trucks carries $500,000 worth of ore, with Canada getting a pittance from it in a few jobs and some royalties and taxes.

Foreign investment may have had some ground in the gold standard days, albeit not in Canada's case with all the gold this country has, but since bank deregulation, banks are creating imaginary capital against the resources and assets of others so that the carpetbagger mafia can take them over.

This is not investment, or an economy, but a crime wave.

Ed Deak.

Working Memory

With that expression, Maurice, I fully agree. A number of us here are trying to work on something a little more relevant and impactful on the side.

Send me an email if you're interested:

Desperate Exxon and the $10,000 Reward

...(or bribe).
G. West wrote: "I expect the oily guys will be trundling out small armies of global warming deniers on a regular basis now..."

A recent news story has it that, prior to release of the latest UN report on climate change, Exxon had advertised to recruit climate scientists willing to publicly refute the coming UN findings, at $10,000 a pop (doesn't sound overly generous, from a co. that made $10s of Billions last year, does it?).

I think G West is right,that we'll see the big oil cos. playing a double game: They'll be actively encouraging and recruiting deniers, while at the same time throwing a few bones to a concerned public, claiming they're going green in various ways, with slick ad and pr campaigns.

I bet Harper will be playing his own double game too: he'll be claiming he's seen the light, and will start making new promises,
and announcing stern new requirements of the oil industry. But I expect the promises will not be kept, and any new emission standards on oil cos. will end up being
watered down or unenforced.

His Alberta base and friends won't have it any other way, and Harper is very loyal to his old friends. A friend of my family in Toronto was a elementary/high school chum
of Harper. Whenever Harper's in Toronto, he
still meets up with his best old school pals - which may be viewed as admirable in a sense, but potentially is a negative for Canadians, if his allegiance is not firstly to them, but to assorted old pals and cronies instead.

There are:

There are:

(i) Lies

(ii) Damn Lies

(iii) Statistics

(iv)....and Global Warming/Climate Change PIMPS...that is more a " fact " than the theories they claim are absolute truths.

Back to the Super Bowl.

GO EAST GARF, GO EAST

G west said,

Why not pull out W. A. C. Bennett western Canada map out of the archives, which allowed
for the splitting of west from the east.

As the A Bourque Exclusive stated,

To which G west once again suggest, Maybe it's time to get rid of provincial divisions altogether. Albertans seem too parochial these days anyway. I frequently mistake them for Americans

GARF get on the bomber, go back to the land of your love, Quebec. Your not going to like it out west much longer ,changes are a coming.

Who's a Pimp?

I'm not sure if Maestro considers the climate change "pimps" to be the 80% - 90% of qualified climate scientists who say the evidence is overwhelming for human activity being a significant contributor to global warming.

-Or are the pimps the 5% of climate scientists who are outright deniers that human activity is causing the earth to heat up? I believe another 5% - 15% are still more or less on the fence, and want more evidence before "pronouncing".

Of course, we know who's likely bankrolling those 80% - 90% "doomsayers". They're no doubt bought off by those powerful, monied, economic king pins in the wind turbine and other alternate power proponents industries!
-You know, that alternate energy establishment, and the green honcho puppet masters, like the multi trillion dollar Sierra Club, that can say "jump" and get most of the world's academic climate scientists to hop on board the green train and "pimp" themselves to alternate power!

It certainly couldn't be the tiny minority of scientists who are balking at the idea that CO2 is leading us to catastrophe. Surely, they're not the pimps!

And what kind of powers of persuasion would that quaint, marginal old oil extraction industry have over anyone else anyway? 'Cause we all know the oil sector has little money these days, negligible position, clout, or economic or political power. I mean, those oil guys are just a bunch of range cowboys, aren't they?
Who'd pimp themselves for a bunch of grimy cowboys, anyway?

But geez, pimping for the greens though, is spreading far and wide now, even to the upper echelons of political power!
Both Harper and Bush (formerly rational gents who knew the oil industry is friendly and harmless), are now spreading the evil lies that the vast majority of (bought off)scientists' climate science is sound.

When they start taking down, for no rational reason, our upright, beloved oil industry, then you know the lunatics must be taking over the asylum!

Sure, blame it on the oil industry.

Bobb999

If enough people walked everywhere they went then the oil industry would probably sit up and listen but it seems that those with 'green' concerns would rather lay blame.

Quit the bitchin' and start walkin'. If your cause is great enough lots of people will join you or are you the only smart one on a dumb planet.

When we look at the

When we look at the ideological, or religious makeup of people who deny major, well proven historical events, or their causes, we can see that they always belong to the same faiths.

E.g. Catholics deny the Holy Inquisition and the sacking of South America and claim the Bible would never permit such crimes.

Neonazis and the ultra conservatives deny the Jewish Holocaust, or that the Christian Churches in Europe supported Hitler.

Communists deny the mass murder of tens of millions by Stalin and Mao and endlessly quote Marx in their defence.

Now, our so called "conservatives" are the only ones who deny global warming, as accepting it would interfere with "free enterprise, capitalist wealth creation".

In other words, their sectorial,ideological denial is in fact strong proof and admission that wealth can not be created, only taken and climate change is one of the major results of "wealth creating" activities.

Now, I wonder which group will deny the next horror story, whatever it might be ?

Ed Deak.

Climate

Man made climate change is a free market failure. This is the Neo-Cons and Libertarians achilles heel. They can't admit climate change is real as it proves that their derugelation, trickle down, globalisation theories are pure horseshit.

Nobody listened.

Ed

It seems nobody listened to all the deniers in Germany before Hitler decided to embark on his expansion plans.

Deniers do have a purpose if people choose to listen. They can mitigate extremism.

Money for Transit

Another opportunity to contact polititians instead of just posting a comment to the converted.

For starters, write provincial and federal politians and demand they spend more on public transit and less on highways so people have the option of driving less and thus reducing their GHG emmisions.

Rt. Hon. Stephan Harper
Prime Minister of Canada

; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;

cc:

Hon. Lawrence Cannon, Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities
Hon. Stephane Dion, Liberal Party and Opposition Leader
Hon. John Baird, Minister of the Environment
Hon. David Emerson, for the Pacific Gateway and the Vancouver-Whistler Olympics
Hon. Jack Layton, Leader, New Democratic Party
Hon. John Godfrey, Liberal Critic, Environment
Hon. David McGinty, Liberal Critic, Transport
Hon. Andrew Scott, Liberal Critic, Infrastructure and Communities
Hon. Peter Julian, NDP Critic, Transport
Hon. Nathan Cullen, NDP Critic, Environment
James Moore, M.P., Port Moody—Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam

Premier Campbell

premier@gov.bc.ca
http://www.leg.bc.ca/mla/38thParl/campbell.htm

BC MLA's can be found here:
http://www.leg.bc.ca/mla/3-1-1.htm

maestro

The Theory of Evolution is also just that.....yet here you are!

rac

Baird shot down an LRT for Ottawa. And Campbell pursued his gold-plated "Canada Line" when the same money could have provided LRT service from Tswassen to Coquitlam to Whistler.
You can demand all you want. But with this FPTP voting system, they'll hear only what they want to hear.

snert...Pre war nazi Germany

snert...Pre war nazi Germany was the envy of still depression ridden Europe. He wiped it out in a few months.

After the war, all we could hear in Austria, and Germany, how good it was under Hitler, before the war.

Obviously, people didn't want to listen, as they don't want to listen now.

Ed Deak.

Well, Snert, my main point

Well, Snert, my main point (at least in my last post)wasn't about how bad the oil industry is or isn't. I was responding to an unclear comment by maestro about climate scientists and which camp of scientists is most likely to be "pimping" for special interests. (But I guess my post before that one was more specifically critical of the oil
cos.)

The oil industry could, if they chose to, act more responsibly, and be proactive in the energy transition we need to go through - instead of denying and being dragged kicking and screaming.

They could be doing maximum r&d on recapture of C02 otherwise released in oil sands technology, for instance. They could choose to invest big in alternative energy sources, like BP claims to be doing "Beyond Petroleum". I'm not sure how sincere BP is , or how much is rhetoric. Certainly that Alaskan pipeline failure of BP's due to a lack of proper routine maintenance (due to cost cutting) is a black mark against the co. But BP was the first major oil co. to accept that global warming has a significant human cause.

Sure, I help feed our "oil addiction". Who doesn't? Even if one doesn't drive, home heating often involves fossil fuels either directly or indirectly. Or, if someone buys imported food, they're creating demand for diesel burning trucks to be driving up the continent to deliver their food.
I still drive a car, though much much less. My driving/gasoline use has decreased by approx. 90% from 5 years ago.
********************************8
...I don't believe the Catholic Church denies the Inquisition,or that many killings occurred.
Kruschev's now famous speech admitted Stalin was a mass murderer.
Modern Germany is certainly not in denial about the holocaust. German schoolchildren
are taken on field trips to concentration camps and educated about war history.
And Germany has the strongest anti holocaust-denier laws in the world.

China may not yet be ready to officially denounce Mao's actions, but someday they may come around.They've already dumped communism, though not yet authoritarianism.

Denial

...and, many lefties still deny that capitalism and democracy (refer to Churchill for definition) have given us more mobility, technological developments (like the 'net), moral & religious freedoms, working choices through entrepeneurilism, inventions and many other freedoms so that we can personally seek that which we aspire to.

Mars and the Sun

According to scientists, the polar ice caps on Mars are melting.
Now I know we sent a few spacecraft there, but I don't think we can be blamed for this climate change on Mars.
We don't have mankind as a common thread between these two planets.
There is one thing in common between Earth and Mars. The Sun.
Now that's a correlative argument like " Shark attacks in Australia go up with the increased consumption of cream by Australians."
So does consuming cream mean that this causes shark attacks? No. It simple means that in the summer, when Australians are going to the beach, they are also eating more ice cream. The ice cream doesn't cause sharks to attacks. it's a correlative argument, not a causal argument.
It's like the sea lice and the man made global warming argument. Pure B.S.
The Arctic is shrinking, the Antarctic is thickening.
I know we have been through many drastic climate changes before mankind ever came along.
Perhaps it was aliens from outer space.

Capitalism and democracy are

Capitalism and democracy are opposing concepts.

Today's globalizing market capitalism can not survive and grow in free, democratic societies and has to work itself into fascism, as it is doing it now, especially in the USA, and in any country that signs fraudulent treaties, called "free trade agreements" restricting the decision making powers of communities.

When any special interest class is put into power of decision making over the lives of others, it is called fascism.

Add to this the free, money creating powers of the same class, and watch what happens.

The reinstitution of seigneurs rights is not democracy.

Ed Deak.

Nobody was in denial

Ed

Are you trying to say that no one in pre-war Germany was a denier of Hitler's version of the truth. As your statement implies the number must have been small but some must have objected to it. Surely somebody must have deluded themselves into believing the he was sinister force about to let loose on the planet.

My point is that there are currently two realities out there that contradict each other as far as the future is concerned. One is currently being favoured as more correct than the other. At some point in time they may move closer together but it will only be with 20-20 hindsight that we can determine exactly how wrong one or the other is.

Most, if not all of the suggestions to remedy the global warming scenario are good ideas in there own right. They should be promoted on their own merits not hooked to some groundswell of public opinion that appears to be going into panic mode when the last thing we need is a bunch of knee jerk reactions that could do more harm than good.

Are the sheep switching flocks?

Rick W

Theory of Evolution

No .....there YOU are....

Me.....??? Not a big believer in it, except for the turnips, rutabaga, kumquats and radishes that Vote LIEberal Federally.

When you are ploughing your front yard in preparation for a garden ..if you find the Missing Link ....see if it'll challenge Hedy Fry for the Vancouver riding nomination she currently holds.

Either way, sign up the vegetables as delegates.

Outer Space

The ice on Ellesmere Island has been watched receeding gradually since 1896. A long gradual reduction. It's a natural progression and humans can probably do nothing about it. Even if mankind were to do a lemming-like jump the ice will receed. Humans will adapt.

Ed. Please tell me that the EU free trade deal is a bad thing. It may reduce the power of collectives to wall their communities and the power meisters control their peoples but it also gives more freedom, choice and commerce to millions of individuals. Hamlets should be allowed to trade. Shouldn't the fisherman be permitted to trade fish for fabrics? Shouldn't the farmer be permitted to trade grains for tools? Shouldn't the dung collector be allowed to trade dung for shoes?

I disagree

sez realisticman.

Moreover, of course he's right. As long as you take a little trouble over the word Us and manage the terms of the conversation very carefully.

That definition makes a good deal of difference. In fact, it makes all the difference.

As long as ‘us’ happens to live in the so-called first world - let's say something less than 1 billion of the 6 billion souls here on earth. Then, if we eliminate the 25 - 35 % of those populations (in the first world - maybe more in fact) who don't get the benefits realisticman is so proud of and add back in the 5 billion people who are not doing well at all - at least partly because of the way the system favours those same capitalistic countries...and those few lucky millions....
Well, you get my point - the record really isn't that good at all. Not so much to be proud of really. Especially considering the record of the last three decades when we’ve actually been going backward and hiving more and more treasure off in the hoards of those who already have more than enough.

Churchill was a pompous ass...I don't think I'd like to rely on his testimony or definition about anything.

I used to be quite a Churchill fan until I read about his little trip to the front lines in WWI. It was quite an eye-opener.

You should look it up - it'll make you think of Winnie much more realistically.

For your consideration

Global Warming -- Not Worse Than We Thought, But Bad Enough

The IPCC issues its summary for policymakers on the scientific basis of climate change.

Ronald Bailey | February 2, 2007

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) released its Summary for Policymakers of its 4th Scientific Assessment of Climate Change (4AR) in Paris earlier today. (The whole report will be published in May.) The Summary declares that "warming in the climate system is unequivocal" and that "most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic greenhouse gas concentrations." In the lexicon of the Summary's authors, very likely means that they believe that there is more than a 90 percent chance that the last half century of warming is humanity's fault. Temperatures are increasing largely because humanity is pumping greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide from burning fossil fuels into the atmosphere. The 4AR's conclusion about humanity's responsibility for higher temperatures is the strongest yet from the IPCC.

It's taken more than a decade and a half of climatological research to reach this conclusion. Here's how the previous three IPCC assessment reports described humanity's influence on the climate. In 1990, the First Assessment Report (FAR) declared, "The size of the warming is broadly consistent with predictions of climate models, . . . but the unequivocal detection of the enhanced greenhouse effect from observations is not likely for a decade or more." In 1996, the Second Assessment Report (SAR) asserted, "The balance of evidence suggests a discernible human influence on climate." And in 2001, the Third Assessment Report (TAR) more confidently stated, "There is new and stronger evidence that most of the warming observed over the last 50 years is attributable to human activities."

There is good news of a sort in the 4AR Summary. Researchers believe that average global temperatures and sea level rise are likely to be somewhat lower than previously projected. Let's look at earlier IPCC projections to get a sense of how climate change findings have evolved since 1990. Although each report stated its projections in ways that make it somewhat difficult to make direct comparisons, here's the gist of them. In 1990, the FAR found that computer climate models projected that global mean surface temperature as a result of doubling atmospheric carbon dioxide was unlikely to lie outside the range 1.5 to 4.5 degrees Celsius (2.7 to 8.1 degrees Fahrenheit). The "best estimate" for sea level rise due to melting glaciers and thermal expansion was about 60 centimeters (25 inches) by 2100.

In 1996, the SAR lowered the projected increase in average global temperatures by 2100 of about 1.0 to 3.5 degrees Celsius (1.8 to 6.3 degrees Fahrenheit) by 2100 with a best estimate of 2 degrees Celsius ((3.6 degrees Fahrenheit. The SAR forecasted that sea-level could rise between 15 to 94 centimeters (6 to 37) inches by 2100 with a best estimate of 50 centimeters (20 inches). In 2001, the TAR widened the projected range of projected temperature increases by 2100 to 1.4 to 5.8 degrees Celsius (2.5 to 10.4 degrees Fahrenheit). On the other hand, the TAR dropped its estimates of sea level rise by 2100 to 9 to 88 centimeters (4 to 35 inches) with a mean estimate of 45 centimeters (18 inches).

So what does the latest report foresee? The 4AR more or less drops the range of average global temperatures anticipated for 2100. The Summary says the temperature is "likely to be in the range 2 to 4.5 degrees Celsius (3.5 to 8 degrees Fahrenheit) with a best estimate of about 3 degrees Celsius (5.4 degrees Fahrenheit) and is very unlikely to be less than 1.5 degrees Celsius (2.7 degrees Fahrenheit). The Summary adds, "Values substantially higher than 4.5°C cannot be excluded, but agreement of models with observations is not as good for those values." Basically, IPCC global temperature projections are back to where they were in 1990 in the FAR.

However, the IPCC's new Summary continues the trend of lowering sea level increases that is found in its previous scientific assessments. By 2100 sea level is expected to rise between 28 to 43 centimeters (11 to 16 inches). The report notes that sea level rose about 7 inches during the 20th century.

The new estimate for sea level rise has proved to be one of the more controversial aspects of the IPCC Summary. For example, Stefan Rahmstorf from the University of Potsdam in Germany, is a co-author of a brief report in Science this week that suggests the previous IPCC projections "may in some respects even have underestimated the change, in particular for sea level." He thinks sea level could rise as much as 55 inches over the next century.

Interestingly, a new study published in Geophysical Research Letters earlier this month reported that the "rate of sea level change was found to be larger in the early part of last century." In the first half of the 20th century sea level rose by about 2 millimeters per year, while averaging about 1.5 milimeters per year in the second half. This is pretty good agreement with the IPCC assessment that reports that sea level rose by about 1.8 milimeters per year between 1961 and 2003. However, the IPCC finds that sea level rose fastest between 1993 and 2003 at about 3 millimeters annually, while the GRL report finds the fastest increase occurred between 1975 and 1985 at about 5 millimeters per year.

Details like sea level rise will continue to be debated by researchers, but if the debate over whether or not humanity is contributing to global warming wasn't over before, it is now. The question of what to do about it will be front and center in policy debates for the next couple of decades. How strongly humanity may want to mitigate future climate change and at what cost depends on how likely the worst case projections turn out to be. The European Union wants to set a goal of avoiding an increase of more than 2 degrees Celsius (3.6 degrees Fahrenheit) from pre-industrial levels to prevent "dangerous anthropogenic interference with the climate." In the most optimistic case, humanity could basically sit on its collective hands because an increase of this magnitude is close to the lower bounds of the new IPCC estimates in some scenarios. However, as the new IPCC Summary makes clear, climate change Pollyannaism is no longer looking very tenable.

Disclosure: As I have disclosed ad nauseam I still own 50 shares of ExxonMobil (which just reported record profits) and my family owns some pretty poor land in McDowell County West Virginia that might have some coal under it. I detail my climate change skepticism saga here. The folks at Exxonsecrets have this to say about me. I wish they would get around to updating it some day. And oh yeah, I generally prefer warmer temperatures, so I vacation in the tropics when I can afford it.

Ronald Bailey is Reason's science correspondent. His book Liberation Biology: The Scientific and Moral Case for the Biotech Revolution is now available from Prometheus Books.

Ron the old man of the mountain

I knew you were a very ancient anachronism Ron, but I had no idea that you were this old:

You could only "know" such a thing if you were several million years old.

I'd say that explains everything - even your knowledge of the amount of water ice on Mars. Something that even NASA scientists only hypothesize about.

Alternatively, are you into remote viewing?

On the other hand, are you really an alien?

Or just a ventriloquist's dummy.

Would you rather live outside the capitalistic realm?

I'm not saying it's perfect. I'm just saying it's better.

My father didn't like Winston, at all. Called him an opportunistic warmonger. I degress. I used him merely for the purpose of his clever descriptive of 'democracy'.

Hurtling into the abyss

We're so lucky to be living in this time. So indulgent. As we contemplate stopping and shutting down everything and collecting dung for our root vegetables in our front yards Abu Dhabi is thinking of a new paradigm.

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/khtml/2007/02/04/arts/20070204_ABUDHABI_FEATURE.html

That strange word comes to mind. The nultimate blast-off high, Yowzer!

Perhaps

this is the dawning of the age of Aquarius?

Seems as though the salvation is at hand.

Let the sun shine in but not too much, that wouldn't be cool anymore.

Groovy.

Bobb 999

Sorry Bobb 999

Just becuase they don't drive a Pink Cadillac with leopard skin seats don't mean they ain't a pimp.

It's much like the Cancer industry....money is thrown at it...is it well spent ???... or the Justice Industry...another joke...a success because of its failure...all the jobs one criminal creates. My God, if they ever really cleaned up crime...the UNemployment would be UNreal.

Yessir, throw more money at it. It's like burning money, but then that creates impact on the environment and Global warming.

I think we are at about the 1/2 life of this latest Scientific pimping agenda re:the Climate Change cult......the General Public's attention span is very short at best...pretty soon people will either get bored...or tired ....or simply become numb to it.

Sorta reminds me of the Pulp Mills... all the protests over their pollution..their subsequent anti-pollution upgrades cost 100's of $$$ Millions...now they are going one -by- one...and the paper is produced offshore more and more in areas likely far less regulated.

Climate change...gee you mean it actually changes...gee.

OK if it changes...then what?

What are people going to do ?

N-O-T-H-I-N-G. It's the other guys fault/problem.

They expect Gov't to fix it!!!

So...What will Gov't do...??

N-O-T-H-I-N-G!....

............except T-A-X...or maybe F-I-N-E.

What will it due to the TAXES and FINES?

Put them into GENERAL REVENUE.

SOL..... LOL .

End of today's lesson.

realisticman

If you are thinking this applies over here, then what the heck are all those border guard thingies between Canada & Mexico........?????!!

maestro

When I have my rutabagas growin', and there ain't no more food to be had, I sure hope it ain't you I see at the shootin' end o' my popgun............

maestro

When I have my rutabagas growin', and there ain't no more food to be had, I sure hope it ain't you I see at the shootin' end o' my popgun............

RickW

You'll need more than a popgun...but hey, by then perhaps Soylent Green will have been deemed somewhat of a prophetic inspiration.

Remember root vegetables would be more work and thus less likley to be stolen, as opposed to something like tomatoes.

BTW I heard you the first time...no need to repeat.

Freeer Trade

RickW, you ask,

"what the heck are all those border guard thingies between Canada & Mexico........?????!!".

It's far from perfect but if you are accredited in certain trades the border is transparent.

Of course, there's been

Of course, there's been opposition to the nazis, as there is against the EU the Euro, the communists, etc. etc. That's why I had to flee many years ago, from the rope.

A group of Germans, including officers, prepared the arrest of Hitler, as he was returning to Berlin and sent an emmissary to England to ensure recognition for their takeover of the government. They were rejected by the British govt. and the rest is the history of WW2.

As far the EU is concerned, many people are having second thoughts and the proposed Constitution, entrenching corporate and capital, over human rights and decision making powers, has been rejected by French and Dutch voters,, but accepted by all Parliaments. Figure out the reasons????
The Euro puts a clamp, again on national decision making powers, as is the plan for the Amero to save bankrupt USA.

Now, as far "hamlets" etc. doing trade is concerned, it is not only an impossibility, but a dreom and bloody propaganda lie. The multinationals move in and take them over as they have done here in BC and Canada.

The majority of so called "internatgiojnal trade" is done between multinatonal corporations, and their own subsidiaries, as it is here under NAFTA. They now control the majority of our economy, including all meat production, screwing producers and putting them into bankruptcies, so they can get their lands for agribiz operations, while raising prices in our supermarkets every day.

The sole purpose of "free trade agreements" is the communistic collectivization of the economy under the conspiracy of a few corporations, with the creation and the free movement of artificial, imaginary capital, and now also with the proposed micro chipping of all peoples at birth, for certain jobs.

The proposed MAI, negotiated between the 29 OECD countries between 1995 and 97, would have eliminated all democratic rights of peoples and replaced them with unlimited corporate rights. It was leaked in France late in 1996, published in North America in early 1997, causing a huge uproar and died when the French govt. walked out, fearing revolution.

Today the wording of the MAI is included in every so called "free trade agreement"

I don't have the exact wording of the NAFTA clause, but is is basically the same as Article 103 of the FTA: "The Parties to this Agreemnt shall ensure that all necessary measures are taken in order to give effect to its provisions, including their observance, except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, by state, provincial and local governments"

The TILMA, signed by Campbell and Klein last year, coming into operation April 1, wipes out all local decision making powers, including zoning, signboards, environmental protection etc.

The NAFTA permits corporations to sue for the loss of profits at any cost, as UPS is now suing Canada Post against its delivery of parcels, US lumber companies are suing BC for the unlimited export of raw logs, etc, etc. etc.

Wake up you poor, ideologically brainwashed
people, even the proposed NAU is now being negotiated by the 3 big business organizations of the NAFTA countries, for the setting up of a new, regulatory "proto parliamnent" of their representatives, called the "North American Competitiveness Council....to identify measures to facilitate further the movement of business persons" Which means, imported labour, also included in the now negotiated GATS.

The NAFTA panel of judges consists of 3 , who make their judgments and decisions behind closed doors and without any reasons given, documentation and published records.

Anybody who considers these conspiracies any form of "democracy" must have serious mental problems.

Yes, the purpose of democracy is one person one vote and the protection of the rights of peoples. PROTECTION!!!!!!! not sellout to a goddamn carpetbagger mafia stealing us blind.

Ed Deak.

Scientists Offered Cash ......

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines07/0202-05.htm

Scientists Offered Cash to Dispute Climate Study

by Ian Sample
Published on Friday, February 2, 2007 by the Guardian / UK

Scientists and economists have been offered $10,000 each by a lobby
group funded by one of the world's largest oil companies to undermine
a major climate change report due to be published today.

Letters sent by the American Enterprise Institute (AEI), an
ExxonMobil-funded thinktank with close links to the Bush
administration, offered the payments for articles that emphasise the
shortcomings of a report from the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on
Climate Change (IPCC).

Lunatic Fringe

So nice to have the climate change naysayers/fossil fools be seen now (finally!) as the lunatics!

Organic soap (?)lather and blather

Dammit:

( BTW Thanks for the link, Ed...)

I see the Pickton trial missed some potential jurists...

Ben Stewart of Greenpeace said

" The AEI(American Enterprise Institute)is more than just a ThinkTank, it functions as a Bush administration intellectual Cosa Nostra. They are White House surrogates in the last throes of their campaign of climate change denial. They lost on the science; they lost on their moral case for action. All they've got left is a suitcase full of cash ".

Don't you just love it..." Hey man...groooooovy ".

So, its illegal to fund a rebuttal,etc. and the General Public are too stupid to think for themselves ?

Maybe Ben should have said....as a suggestion:

" The AEI is effectively a group representing X interests and has quantifiable ties to the Bush Administration via evidence such as these fiscal records...(NOTE....assuming it has no ties to any other groups or organizations ...maybe the Green party?) .

While the AEI, via past practice, tends to act as a lobby group for X interests, we at Greenpeace, and likely many other concerned groups and individuals ,and in the spirit of good, healthy, constructive and objective debate and dialogue , look forward to reviewing any and all reports etc. that the AEI sponsors on this Global Warming /Climate Change issue. " (End of suggestion)

I guess sh!ting on someones HEAD at the start makes the one side look and smell bad (ie terms like CosaNostra, immoral, lost on the science..suitcases full of money etc. )from the get -go ....and gives the other "Holier than thou Ltd." side a HEAD start.

I'm sure Ben Stewart works for free, rides their bike or walks to work,...and his eco-footprint and Global Warming/Climate Change footprint is at zero. Totally self -reliant... Likewise for Greenpeace "no filthy lucre, SVP " et al...

(I'm sure the cheques are flying in already due to Ben's absolute truth...)

PS wasn't old Al "An Inconvenient Truth" Gore in office with Mr. Hilary Clinton for 8 years...we won't go into our own Federal LIEberals 12 + years of "enviro- duuhhh"

Politicians, especially from the Left,.. evolve to epiphanized statesman to cover their own past ineptitude....works every time...SRO for their cult memebr with "convenient/ly " S-H-O-R-T er memories.

Illegal to fund a rebuttal

What do you not understand about science maestro?

You don't hire real scientists to do what Exxon and the AEI are on about. You're hiring them as shills, not independent researchers.

The Bush White House is already on record during the first 4 years of his dictatorship for having ordered independent climate scientists to edit and amend their results and reports.

What do you not understand about lies?

This isn't a matter of a polite debate and the Straussian neocons in the United States aren't as credible as an Austrian weightlifter is on the environment.

You apparently have NO memory.

Could I interest you in some cheap turkey from England?

Alci....don't try to confuse

Alci....don't try to confuse the faithful with facts.

Remember: "Faith conquers all!"

Especially logical thought.

As one of the literature peddlers told me: "The Lord has put the fossils and stones polished by water into the desert, to test our faith!"

Ed Deak.

There's an interesting story in the G & M

Brian Laghi has our esteemed pee wee rambo doing the AEI/Bush white house shuffle on Global Warming 'science' too.

Here's an excerpt:

And now he and his lying compadres have the effrontery to pay for horrendously expensive attack adds against the Liberals and Stephane Dion for not doing enough to support Kyoto at the time Harper was busy attacking them for the little they were doing!

How ignorant do they think the people of Canada are?

The stupidest people in the country must be the ones who support this man financially.

Garf walks on water

And with that said, Garf put his sandals back on, and walked off across the waters of the Gulf of Georgia, hopefully to never be heard from again.

GW - you work yourself into

GW - you work yourself into such a lather that you can't see the irony in using comments from Liberal leadership candidates to expose Dion's hypocrisy? It's freakin' hilarious.....

Ed / Fiat Lux; re: " The literature"

Hey Ed.....

Maybe it was the same J.W's who visited me in the Cariboo a few years back...and also miles from the nearest town.

Regardless, I am probably one of those rare people who actually didn' t slam the door in their face and actually took some time and listened to their points of view.

Open mind...not slammed door. (Oops, off to Leftie purgatory AGAIN ,... dammit !!! )

PS How many polished stones did you order ....LOL ?

nutter

Lather!

What are you talking about? I just quoted from Stephen Harper's own words - as written up in a Globe and Mail piece.

No need for any stinkin' lather. The only person who's getting lathered up on this issue are the people who're afraid that someone, sometime, might actually cut into their oily profits. I'm surprised we haven't heard from Logjam 403 or whatever he calls himself. Now there's someone capable of a real lather.

I bet you still haven't read the Romanow Report.

If you can't see the irony of pee wee's new found environmental credo when juxtaposed against those stupid ads (the financing of which is no longer legal in a declared election campaign) then you're as big a waste of time as Elliot.

Woody is, at least, marginally humourous. You're just tiresome.

Eureka:

New Definition: (cc)

The cyber space " PSEUDO- INTELLECTUAL SUICIDE BOMBER (PISB)" .

--- Hypocritically accuses others of ad hominem attacks...or the right to engage in such at their sole discretion to the exclusion of all others.

--- characterized by a perpetually bleeding cardiac muscle.

--- this deprives all cranial lobes(including those lobes unique to the PISB ie at the terminal end of the large intestine ) of Oxygen supply.

-- The body compensates for this reduced oxygen via a bio-feedback loop which tends to favour the Left lobe (ie ones unique to the PISB in the LOWER body)

---this cardiac bleeding is hard to detect via the "foam and lather" dripping from the mandible portions of the upper neck area... as well as exiting other orifices.

--- a blind, almost zealot -driven belief in "anything" that is in opposition to the very country, society and traditional governance of the same home country or society they live in and/or born in... yet somehow refuse to move...but prefer to "squat in" in quasi- perpetuity in the same environment they often criticize in King Kanute fashion.

--- prefer to use odd somewhat obscure Latin phrases(..versus speakink planes englush , dammit...)

--- generally find a way to avoid Jury Duty...ie PISB-ism : often stereotypical-profiling and nooses.

--- tendency to support losing teams, political ones or otherwise.

--- PISB's avoid at all costs the challenge of "...if the shoe fits WEAR it." ie the "Non -Moi" defence.

---- most of their arguments and debates are lost early on ....ie BLOW UP in their faces....hence the term " PISB ".

PS....PISB-ism may be (i)a genetic predisposition or (ii) it may be environmental...but most worthy of the Scientific community to lobby for a $$$ Grants....right ???(and hopefully find a Vaccine !!!)

Please generously support PISB when they come knocking at your door.

Thanks (...and same to you too !!!)

Eureka:

To funny,well gotta go, looking for that guy, that walks on water.

GW My Bad

You're right, this isn't a lather, it's just a little foaming at the mouth......

Lot's of room yet for you to get hot and bothered.....

Thanks for that nutter

Nice of you to admit when you're wrong.

I'm so pleased you actually can handle that cut and paste function so competently. Have you gone back to school for some remedial education? Alternatively, did you just order one of those CDs from the Video Professor?

If I'm going to get hot and bothered, it won't be because of anything a lightweight like you says.

maestro

Speaking of which, have you read the (somewhat fascinating) history of the potato.......?

500 and counting...

China has about 500 coal-fired power stations under construction. Since 2000 China's energy demand has increased by 60%.

Is Canada going to increase the cost of doing business for Canadian companies by levying charges for energy uses, therby ensuring that more manufacturing plants will become uncompetitive and close, and the jobs for working families move overseas?

Is this what Dion or the NDP want, or will there be massive taxpayer funded subsidies, to save jobs, given to companies that convert to more eco-friendly energies?

Canada will need many friends in the world if it wishes to go and tell China to change it's ways and slow down it's frenetic growth. Canada's market is incidental to that of the rest of the world and so is its clout unless it's in harmony with a few other big players.

Even if Canada were to turn off the lights and shut down the growth in the China and India would eclipse Canada's tiny contribution to a cooler planet in a matter of months.

Sure, develop new clean energy sources and keep the present ones as clean as possible but any panic is completely unrealistic.

Nope

We're not even willing to boycott the Olympics in Beijing because of China's blatant support of the fascist regime in the Sudan and the genocidal consequences in Darfur.

We’d do it for Afghanistan, relative to the USSR, but not for poor black Africans relative to China.

‘The time is out of joint; O cursed spite,. That ever I was born to set it right!’

The only thing that will save us is a complete collapse of the western consumer economy. That’ll take care of China and pollution too.

Sorry. But them's the breaks. The panic will come some enough.

Ed may be right: Around 2012.

Economic competition is

Economic competition is environmental and human suicide. It increases costs, waste and pollution, destroys people.

Competition should only be used to produce the best quality of goods with the smallest resource/energy inputs.

The sooner the people of the world come to grips with these simple facts, the better chance humanity has for survival.

In any case, Canada is one of the few countries on Earth that can go into a self sufficient economic system and use only true trading, the exchange of resources and goods with other countries, by cutting out the bloodsucking middlemen.

Now this will go down like a lead ballonn with the faithful, but I would like them to show me a single form of competition that doesn't demand constantly increased energy inputs ? Economic competition works on the laws of speed, huge energy inputs for lesser and lesser benefits.

I used to be in car rallies in the 60s, as factory team captain, and in competition we used to wear out one, or two sets of tires per day and a car in a week.

Economic competition is giving us the same results.

The argument is that if we don't compete we'll be left behind. Good. The the stupid fools burn themselves out.

Ed Deak.

Rick W

Re: the Potato;

Yes, truly a fascinating vegetable / starchy tuber.

It apparently originated in South America, in the Western areas ie Peru and Chile.

Thor Heyerdahl , however, was mistaken... and obviously on the wrong track.

Potatoes in South America would be 100 % proof that the IRISH were the original settlers of South America... and likely North America via migration.

Time to stop these Land Claims forthwith and post- haste.

The mighty SPUD

That's where the word comes from Southern Peruvian Underground Delicatables.

It's the other way around maestro, Peru is making claim to Eire. They went there with their spuds and on to England, which they're claiming too. It's obvious - Limey's got their name from the people from Lima, It's a bastardisation of the Lima's.

Potatoes

The Incas actually cultivated as many as 5,000 varieties of potato in a variety of colours, shapes and sizes.

They also gave us tomatoes, a member of the nightshade family, which were originally thought by Europeans to be poisonous.

And it's the bean that's named for Lima - which, again from the Incas, is where it came from.

Berry Berry Bad

Didn't the Incas give the tomato berries to the invading Spainards with the hope that they would become ill?

People are often shocked to learn, and imagine, that pre-Columbus Italian cuisine had no tomatoes.

And Marco Polo brought the noodles back from China

Is nothing sacred, eh!

Hmm : Food Origins

I recall that the BBC once broadcast a video clip of people harvesting SPAGHETTI from trees.

The video clip showed the limp noodles were plucked by individual harvesters from the ends of branches, much like tinsel on an Xmas tree.

People beleived it.

....then realized it was broadcast the day after MARCH 31 st...

maestro: I think you're on

maestro:
I think you're on to something about climate scientists selling out, but you have it back-asswards.

To start with, it seems safe to assume that most current climate scientists entered the field out of an interest in the science itself, and the possible contributions and discoveries they might be able to make to broaden human knowledge in the field.

It's not the type of field likely to attract the money-grubbing, no integrity type. That type would opt for big business, or the lucrative investment businesses field.

An overwhelming percentage of climate scientists (80% - 90%)now believe the evidence is compelling for human caused global warming. It's so far fetched to believe (as you apparently do) that all those science intellectuals are in fact just money grubbing scoundrels with zero integrity, prepared to lie through their teeth - the level of the most corrupt of stock brokers. A completely implausible conspiracy theory.And that they have all been corrupted by money. From where?From the "multi trillion dollar" fledgling alternative energy industry, maybe?
Get serious! They're not the folks with the big money or with established fat cat status in the economy. But guess who does have the big bucks and ivory tower status?
You guessed right!

Assuming that many of those scientists are professors or researchers with universities, are the universities buying them off? Why would they? Who has the money
to even try to corrupt university administrations and profs? It's a nonsensical idea.

And don't you think universities have reputations for integrity they wish to maintain? Why would they risk the future of their university by allowing corruption and bribery to occur?If there was such a broad and successful conspiracy to corrupt scientists to the global-warming-is-human caused camp, how could it be kept so quiet?
There'd have been lots of whistleblowers by now, people saying they were offered money to lie about the threat posed by g.w. But we've heard no such reports.

On the other hand there have been whistleblowers and reports of the oil cos. offering bribe money to scientists in exchange for denials. Most recently Exxon was exposed for offering $10,000 a head to scientists who would agree to publicly
oppose findings of the UN report that just came out. Also, the few climate scientists who are outright deniers (est. at 5%), when you follow the money, you'll find they're often (lucratively) employed by oil industry backed organizations. A Dr. Ball, a Canadian PHD climatologist is an example.
His work is directly sponsored by oil money, not a university.

There's no rational reason to accuse universities of having a vested interest in
depicting g.w. as a fixable threat.
But there is a rational reason to believe oil sponsored orgs have a vested interest in denying the g.w. threat.

The sheer numbers argue against your theory. 80% - 90% of climate scientists
are unlikely to all be liars on behalf of a vast conspiracy (that miraculously avoids being exposed).

But it IS conceivable that there are a few bad apples (who end up in the 5% deniers category), who are corruptible, and willing to lie for a price, on behalf of the oil industry. That's a credible percentage for an potential incidence of corruption, but 80% - 90% is not a credible
number.

Yes, I think you are right there's corruption afoot, and pay-offs for lying.
But the only credible evidence is that it's the oil industry that's doing the corrupting, and it's the tiny group of scientists in the deniers camp who are taking oil bucks to prostitute themselves for the oil industry.

Bobb 999

Bobb 999

I'll discuss this more later,....but suffice it to say....it's tough to quantify the effects of that which we cannot see...of the (3) Phases of Matter(ie) (i) SOLID (ii) LIQUID and (iii) GAS...and there ain't no DNA involved either....not even traceable isotopes, are there ?

PhD = " publish or perish "...and they need filthy lucre $$$ as THEIR " fuel" for the aforementioned.

PS...Of course anyone associated with Private Sector will be deemed wearing a Black Hat.....that's understood going in.

Bobb 999

Bobb 999

If you haven't already...I may suggest a look at the currently posted TYEE discussions for :

" THE YEARS THE LOCUSTS ATE".

Which RAFE MAIR wrote last Monday.

Lots ot interesting info and debate there.

I also recall the " Global Cooling " debate years ago...

I will keep my usual stand of healthy skepticism. Seen this " fashionable science du jour " far too many times .

PS Did you catch the World Wildlife Fund(WWF) Ad the other day re: Global Warming/Climate Change?...gee a-m-a-z-i-n-g timing.

I haven't spent much time

I haven't spent much time reading Rafe's article or the comments. I'll have a look. Thanks. I missed the WWF ad.

When a major oil co. (BP), plus a US President who's a former oil industry insider who has many oil co. friends and supporters, and a Cdn. P.M. with strong ties to oil-driven Alberta and to oil industry supporters - ALL come out saying they now accept the most current science saying global warming is occurring and it's significantly caused by human activity -
Well, it's implausible that they (along with the broad public) are all surrendering voluntarily to a vast conspiracy of lies.

They're throwing out the lies they formerly adhered to and are now surrendering to the facts.

Bobb 999

I've posted mention of this a few times, but I once saw a TV show on PBS about mathematical models developed by a couple of Scientists on weather and weather patterns...which of course leads into climate change.

It was something based on a chaos theory. What was fascinating was how given the many variables that are invoved, a shift in some variables to varying degrees can create a major domino effect which explaind why weather is still an uncertain science. The model was developed to try to explain this UNpredictability. I don't see why a variable like atmospheric components such as Greenhouse Gases(a term which itself is a loaded inference) wouldn't be part of the UNcertainty equations.

RE: Greenhouse gases:
Questions:

(i) Will they ULTIMATELY Warm the planet?

(ii) Will they ULTIMATELY Cool the planet?

(iii) Will there be equilibrium shifts via Mother Nature etc. to neutralize their alleged impact ?

(iv) What about a major volcanic eruptions ? ...which have been historically acknowledged to disrupt weather and climate

(v) What about Sun and solar fluctuations and other phenomenon?

Like anything in life...if an individual or the public can be sold on something. ie the facts and the best available information... it shouldn't be a problem creating a unified front and a pro-active and constructive course of action.

Fear mongering ultimately serves nothing in the end but the interests of a few, and with a wary eye to unholy alliances.

We have Blue Boxes for recycling in urban centers...and I think most people have been quite conscientious in using them . However, that is based on our belief that the items placed in Blue Boxes are, IN FACT, being recycled.

Is it "recycled" ...?? I have heard from some parties that some items are simply re-directed to a separate station, condensed in bales...and then sent to the landfill dump...so is the operating definition of recycling avoiding and A -to- B path to the dump? Thus, if there is any/all intermediary step, it is deemed " recycled" by other parties ?

In my view recycled = re-incarnated into another cost effective practical use.

Or definitons like food products deemed "Lite"..where my understanding is that " Lite" is legally a relative reference to ones own normal version of the same food product one produces. In other words , a competitors Normal may be more "Lite" than your own Lite.

Simple stated, don't take any wooden nickels...whether they from old growth trees , new growth trees or recycled wood...a wooden nickel is STILL a wooden nickel...

Bobb 999: Re: WWF ad

Re: WWF Ad

Saw it yesterday...

It has 3 scenes/clips:

First one is of a couple walking down the street with a huge hurricane like-wind blowing at their backs...implying a major weather/climate pattern is occurring.

This then seguays into a scene of a person camping in a tent with a major forest fire burning in the background immediately behind the tent.

The final seguay show a flooded area of a City with a person up to their armpits in flood waters, yet still washing their car, spraying water on the roof.

Hmmm I sorta doubt this ad was made overnite, yet ironically broadcast very shortly after the major announcement by the global experts on Global Warming/Climate Change.

What a coincidence eh?

No caption of a "refusal" by WWF to accept donations...but isn't the WWF self- defined mandate to look after wildlife...and are they making a business-like leap to associate onto the latest enviro-Bandwagon while the issue is still hot ?

Maybe they can re-brand name and call themselves World Weather Fund...at least they can still "recycle" the same acronym/initials.

Just some views....

WWF

It's fairly apparent that the changes not just coming someday, but which have already begun, are having, and will continue to have profound effects on ecosystems, and therefore on wildlife.

It's been said for years that "habitat loss" is the greatest threat to various species. Habitat change can equal habitat loss.

If the icy habitat of polar bears turns into a watery habitat with few ice flows, it means seals won't have their traditional pupping grounds, and the bears won't have the access to seals they once did. Bears starve and disappear.

If more and more areas become desert like, many animals will die off, being unable to adapt to desert conditions.This will include human "animals" too,forced to die, or else leave former homes to become refugees in search of water and agriculture.

WWF isn't "cashing in" on a trend unrelated to their mandate.
Global warming is directly linked to serious new threats to wildlife worldwide.

Isn't it obvious?

RE Global Warming (GW)

While I generally support the idea that GW is a reality, past experience prompts me to retain enough scepticism to accept Maestro's cautioning that academics are quite capable of jumping on bandwagons.

I have a number of quibbles, one of which concerns Chaos Theory, which as Maestro pointed out, can make near-term as well as long-term climate predictions chancey, even while forecasters must employ it and massive computational power to make their predictions.

Another doubt in my mind concens the role of the Milankovich Cycle, about which I've been looking for a trustable nay or yea from climate scientists for some years. Are we still on the warming upswing following the last glaciation, or are we on the way toword the next cooling phase, which, I have read, can occur quite rapidly, in perhaps as little as 5-10 years. There are opinions both ways.

Yet another concerns the Gulf Stream, which is supposed to transfer warm water from Equatorial regions to the higher latitudes. Yet fresh water from melting Polar ice is now supposed to be overlying the warmer North-bound salt water (some even saying it impedes the flow) and so Europe should be getting colder, not warmer.

Finally, I'm disinclined to accept either Maestro or Bobb999's assertions that their respective scientific advocates can't be bought. Cash is obviously persuasive, while peer and academic blandishments can be just as powerful. In the latter case I'll quote Robb999's somewhat naieve statement:

In another current Tyee story, we witness the power even a few soda pop machines can wave before a university administration.

So, despite the current insane weather, I still don't think the ducks are all in a row just yet.

The Gulf Stream - old news!

November 2004. For ten days the Gulf Stream, which gives Britain its moderate climate, stopped flowing. Scientists based at the National Oceanography Centre in Southampton are trying to work out what this means.

The Gulf Stream raises the temperature of many parts of Europe by up to 10C. Without it the continent would be much drier and colder. If it ever stopped for good Europe would face dire consequences as it plunged into a new ice age.

So the Stream’s recent halt has provoked much worry among climate reseachers. Harry Brydon, of the NOC, said: "We’ve never seen anything like this before and we don’t understand it. We didn’t know it could happen."

Researchers are increasingly coming round to the belief such changes are almost certainly the result of climate change consequent on global warming.

A study by climate researchers at the NOC has shown that the flow rate of the Gulf Stream has dropped by 6m tonnes between 1957 and 1998. Mr Brydon predicts that if this continues at the current rate it would lead to a 1C drop in temperature within the next decade. A complete shut down would lead to 4-6C cooling over the next 20 years. Bearing in mind that the last ice age occurred when Britain’s average temperature was only 4C lower, this is worrying information.

But are the Stream’s halt in 2004, and the decrease in flow rate since 1957, really the first signs that the current is coming to a stop? At this stage Mr Brydon is ruling nothing out. "I want to know more before I say that for definite."

Source: National Oceanographic Centre, Southampton

Bobb 999

Of course one can stretch the correlation of (i) well-being of wildlife to (ii) the effects of Climate Change.

I left that hanging intentionally from my last post.

However...if I send $$$ to WWF...would it be best spent to say fund the purchase of something more certain and quantifiable, ie a physical habitat relevant to the given species or ecosystem to support more species

...or pissing into the wind in an area which is less quantifiable...and which creates another tangent with far less bang for the buck.

In other words...have say $1,000,000 , then

Choice of (i )buying and thus securing say, 10,000 acres of habitat

or (ii) spending the same $$$ on a massive PR advertising campaign , so they have more $$$ to fund more campaigns ?

Me3

No one, at least not me, is saying one side is not going to fund a contrarian view to the others' so -called expert consensus view.

However, if there is a consensus by the experts that there is Global Warming/Climate change..OK...then what???.

Should we fund them further...more studies etc. etc. ... or should they now be directing their efforts to being part of the solution, not simply ad -nauseum reporting the problem.

If the experts have said the sky is falling , literally and figuratively , and it is...then what ?

I can vividly recall in the mid 1980's long hot summers with barely a drop of rain...and some early winters... no big scientific announcements then... in fact since then I recall cooler weather on average.

Nobody works for free, and especially the scientific community. All sides need funding, and the ones most easily convinced with the deepest pockets is always Gov't..which is always political, and ultimately the most easily swayed depending on how the public mood is swung,propogandized, and manipulated.

That,(ie the aforementioned), ....Death ...and Taxes are the greater certainties, unlike much of the so -called experts, their theories, agendas and so -called facts aka UNcertainties.