Is the implication here that the homelessness crisis is supposed to be solved by P3s?

We already know the cabinet/government is a P3, if not officially...the Grits have gone and privatized the very institutions of state, effectively....

Why should a a private company want to invest in not-for-profit housing? The only reason I can see is that they'd be able to skim the contracts (otherwise known as graft).

Much rental housing was built in Canada during the tax advantages of the MURB programme but the Federal Government cancelled these shelters in 1979. Seems like a long time ago but the effect has been that the building of residential rental housing has declined radically - across the country.

http://www.mah.gov.on.ca/userfiles/HTML/nts_1_7368_1.html

Rental housing is generally a bad bet but when tax losses in another area can be offset by buying a 'peice' of a MURB, then financial planners will gather the money, as they do for RSPs, and they will find developers to build them.

The Feds should be lobbied to bring this tax advantage back.

Homelessness is generated in large part, as a consequence of municipal taxes (which drive up the cost of housing) and mass immigration policies which deliver tens of thousands of new arrivals to Vancouver every year (driving up demand). Why no mention of these realities? Perhaps because politically correct orthodoxy prefers to ignore basic facts.

Realisticman;

I vividly recall these MURBS,....as they were built literally in our backyard. Previous Single Family Neighbourhoods were turned into war zones via massive Re - development.

Much like the recent Tory income trust plug-pulling....I recall the Federal Liberals back then pulled the plug on these MURBS as well.

A neighbour had invested in the MURBS ...and while the early returns were good, many of his professional colleagues later went bankrupt. This of course also occurred a time when interest rates were shooting up to 20 % plus.

I recall the various deals offered for any potential renters...as the glut of them became evident. However, if not mistaken, these units had provisos that they had to be RENTED for " X " number of years...and then could be SOLD on the open market. Ultimately, the parties that gained the most were those that held title to the MURB'd building.

I don't think many parties have fond memories of MURBS. If the program was successful, it would have been repeated. However, in hindsight,... EXPO 86 was only a few years later...and I think the E-N-T-I-R-E housing market had inevitably shifted towards catering to Ownership of units versus " Tenants and Landlording" of units.

Percy:

....every so often someone puts it ALL in a nutshell...you are BANG ON.

There is really nothing politically incorrect in what you say.

Gov'ts are in complete 100% quasi "De Beers" - like control and hence manipulation of housing and the housing market....that is FACT.

Kudos.

The two have been hired to work on a "new partnership model that will allow individuals, governments, foundations and the private sector to invest in supportive housing for those most in need."

LOL!!!!!! Re: lack of social housing:

Perhaps this is an appropriate time to remind everyone of what happened during Gordon Campbell's reign as Mayor of Vancouver with Bobbsey Twin Dobell by his side: Concert Properties,(under one of its many name incarnations, run by Gordon's close friend Jack Poole, received free landto supposedly build social housing.

Gee whiz - guess what happened: seems the supposed plan slipped sideways along the way, a few social housing units were built. Guess what happened to the free land??????? Please refer to this link:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:rI3mjvJrCzIJ:canadiandimension.com/articles/2004/07/01/132/+jack+hall,+whistler+land+corporation&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=11

Now we have Vanoc, controlled by Poole & his Concert Properties 'circle' of consultants etc. (with pal Dobell on the Board). Same old 'circle'.

What are we seeing now on the Olympic bandwagon: low cost housing being demolished for developer friends trying to skim off personal profits; while the Olympic agenda is crafted for these private vested interests.

Shame on Campbell & his crew; shame on Jim Green for selling out his backbone, when he used to be a voice for the Downtown Eastside.

Vancouver is developing a disgraceful international record. It is time for a clean - up, starting at the top.

There may have been serious faults with the original MURB programme but another incentive-based scheme, better designed, is needed to encourage construction of rental living spaces. Since the Feds are the greater taxing authority it should come from them.

Residential municipal taxes in Vancouver are low compared to business property taxes. New immigrants are good for this tiny population in this massive country. Vancouver's still a fairly small city. More immigrants will be needed to pay taxes for the services for the aging population.

The rental housing market was once vibrant, but we have to remember the Provincial Tenancy Act. This was quite young when MURBS came on board. This is one facet to consider in attracting new investment. ie the Landlord -Tenant regulations that apply to such things as rent increases etc. which may impact the investor confidence.

There is actually a hidden "rental market meets new construction" , some people will FIRST purchase a new unit, then rent it out....VS. rental from day one.

This then reverts back to the social housing /affordable housing solution to a sub-group of the overall renters pool .

Personally, I don't see much appetite for private investors to invest in rental housing...they need greater liquidity to cash out if need be and this "rental" investment may be more restrictive and hence tie their investment up.

Agreed, it will have to be a Gov't program...If they try MURB-ish solution...what often happens is the Gov't initially makes it very appealling....to attract investment...then they take off and then the sh8t hits the fan...loopholes found...loopholes then closed... people get shafted....bankruptcy...then the rug pulled by Gov't.

One police car costing $60,000 will house a homeless person for 12 years.

But we cant have those homeless people eating and bathing and watching the news now in a little place called home, otherwise the streets would be bare and the media, government, police and prestigious would have no fear to spread amongst the populace.

Democracy and freedom will be established in the DTES, just like in Afghanistan with the grand rebuilding announcement of a Tim Hortons opened to serve the jackboots of top down democracy.

The Royal BC Museum in Victoria recently bought 6 (I'm fairly certain of the number) flashlights for their security people at a cost of (again I find this hard to believe) more than $20,000. [reported in the T/colonist]

Very special flashlights.....

Good to have priorities straight.

RE: $20,000 flashlights

Drum roll.......

The BC Taxpayer should spare NO expense in searching for the Opposition Party and its members...

Maybe they are hiding,( or are being archived ) in the Royal BC Museum's Darwin/dinosaur exhibit...though I hear the TITANIC exhibit is arriving next year.

Anyway,if they find them...its not that long a walk to the Legislature Buildings. (Maybe Basi/Virk can offer them a ride).

Not to detract from the anti-flashlight thread, but the sketch of the proposed building looks a LOT like the council flats we have here (Melbourne, Australia).

They provide social housing, but they also concentrate some very desperate people in with refugees, single mothers with young families, and low-income families. Council flats are known for being violent and unsafe.

Cramming as many poor people as you can into one building doesn't necessarily deal with any of the issues these people are facing - they still need jobs, security, health care, etc. While it seems like a nice idea to provide "24 hour on call staff" we can't even do that in our hospitals, so it seems unlikely to happen in a block of flats.

Also, I thought the whole Vancouver ideal was that we would integrate the social/homeless housing discreetly into existing neighbourhoods. Putting people into a dorm-style tower doesn't really allow them to join the community at large.

The council flats are considered a blight on the city - a failure of the socialist ideals that otherwise run Melbourne. I hope Vancouver has some alternative suggestions.

When Campbell announced the reduction of support for those on welfare he was told repeatedly that the cost of rehabilitation for those left out would be far greater than the cost of letting them continue on welfare. He refused to listen to logic and now look at the mess he has created. This is what happens when arrogant politicians are allowed to do what ever they want to whom ever they want. Campbell has cost the taxpayer huge amounts of money to fight the armies of homeless and newly drug addicted victims of their shoddy ideology. It remains sickening to me that the only reason this is getting publicity is the homeless are costing British Columbia conventions and the loss of business. The toll in human lives is not even a factor in their thinking, just dollars. Heartlessness has its price and we will all pay the price for Campbells heartless ideology. Then again we let this ba$tard back in office by re-electing him so who really is to blame? Enough talk on these blogs more action required.Let's get to work with returning our society back to what it should be!!! Eat the rich!!!!

Skookum 1 gets it most correct in my view here. Though I would hang it slightly differently.

Capitalism creates the poverty, the outgrowth of the Liberal and Conservative Neocon agenda, which first appears out of the deunionization drives signalled by the early 80s Kerkhoff dispute. This which first shuts down and begins to restrict union workers participation in major government contracts, in this case the first Skytrain crossing of the Fraser. Thereafter, and commensurate with the Bill Bennett/ Socred (now Liberal morphed) Economic Restraint and government cutback programmes (which shuts down mental hospital beds etc), all of which led to the big Operation Solidarity strikes of the early 80s, with which betrayal failure, we begin sometime in the 90s to notice homelessness and widespread substance abuse on the streets, such as had not been seen since the Great Depression of the 1930s.

In short, the rising Neocon Capitalism creates the problem of homelessness, and now seeks to fit it into a P3, state and corporate fuk fest solution, through making it possible for the corporate sector to make profits in addition to cost, from homelessness-, at the expense of the "public purse".

It ain't going to work. All it is going to really achieve is a greater and speedier draining of the public purse, and out of that, of course, more homelessness and pressure on already failing public services.

The real solution to the problem lies in quite other directions; mobilization, militantly challenging the ruling status quo, on the street and in politics, and in the workplaces of the country, the implementation of new forms, and more widespread "power to the people" direct democracy in all these state and economic enterprise institutions.

Short of that, it's all just so much breathing in anal gases and calling it refurbished hot air. Bullshite is bullshite however one attempts to repackage it.

I hear what you are saying in your piece, Samantha. And a cogent point it is.

I was down by the womens shelter last night, altho I missed the march I read some info there and overheard one womans personal complaint. That point was about having a decent amount of welfare rent money to live alone. At $325 per month many of these people have no choice but to share an unwelcome living arrangement.

This of itself causes so much distress and conflict in the lives of the already impoverished.

People deserve and society benefits from having a place of peace to go to.

Maybe some of these unfortunate people can take advantage of the same sex marriage act, to shack up with someone, and use the proposed income splitting initiative to make themselves a better life.
Only a suggestion. Always looking for innovative ideas.

You just can't help being an insulting clod can you Ron?

I love innovation. Now, if I asked you to cut my lawn for $1500.00/mo or a penny a day for 30 days but doubling the penny each day. What pay roll would you accept?
* I am sure that ALCI has the answer.

How many people are homeless in BC?
How did they become homeless?
Where are they from?
I know people that are blind and working.
I know people that are disabled and working to support themselves.
If it is that bad then lets all kick in $500.00/mo and support them. All in favour raise your hand.

pure

In the greater Vancouver area there are over 2500 homeless.
Poverty creates homelessness.
Most came from their mothers.
Almost 50% of the homeless work in some way.

http://www.gvrd.bc.ca/homelessness/research.htm

You fail to see the forces in motion.

Right now your kicking in $10,000 a month for you and your grandchildrens debt load, not to mention mounting societal ills. Your paying for everything except what is needed, affordable housing and living wages.

Give me a break. Do you expect the taxpayer to pay for people to live? I wouldn't mind a quote like - "Two months ago I lost my job, and I've been unable to find any form of reasonable employment. It is very difficult to live on this $325 welfare check I have no choice to accept".

Instead - this person sounds like the are perpetually collecting welfare cheques. Didn't we pass legislation limiting the period somebody could be on welfare??

The unemployment rate has never been lower in this city. There are jobs everywhwere - yet people can't find jobs???

We have immigrants from all over the world lining up to come to Vancouver and immediately getting meaningful employment.

This is not the great depression here. These people choose their way of life. I don't wish to provide them with free downtown living, safe injection sites, vast arrays of expensive social programs, welfare.

If you get knocked down - I am all for helping you get back on your feet. However, most of these people have aliented every support line they have in this earth. Who's parents, or brother, or best friend wouldn't put you up for a couple of months if you needed it.

They have no intention on every re-joining civilization and accuse us of being heartless and greedy - because we wish to divert our hard earned dollars to something a little more productive.

Like booze and junkets to Las Vegas?

You're not productive at all Cappy.

Listening to you lecturing about homelessness is like asking Stephen Harper to speak about personal fitness.

Or David Hahn to talk about safety and employee relations.

Pay 'your' fair share of taxes (as a class) and there will be no homelessness - it's as simple as that.

cappy sez:

and then...

Stick to your economic 101 analysis cappy. Your attempts to make sense of social policy are confusing.

Capitalism
"We have immigrants from all over the world lining up to come to Vancouver and immediately getting meaningful employment"
Yeah, right. They are sucked in to coming here with promises of wealth, then are payed below the minimum wage, charged exhorbidant prices for accomodation and food, and left in a state of perpetual debt to their fat cat employers. And only when word leaks out are things "partially rectified". The bottom line for companies is profit. So they will find whatever way they can to increase that item. And it almost always starts with labour and safety costs. And the present government has gutted both those codes to help their rich buddies get richer. These original codes were not brought to make the companies poorer. They were brought to give a decent wage and safety to employees. For the worker living and saving lives is the bottom line.

As far as there being enough jobs, that's true. But when the employer decides he wants cheap labour and no safety, why hire a Canadian where he may have to do things the Canadian way.He can just hire an immigrant and pay slave wages, then claim there were no applicants for the job locally. I know of five people right now who have been turned down in the construction industry and have found out since that immigrant labour has been hired to do the jobs they applied for. Can you name five people that have never looked for a job? If not save your rhetoric for someone else.

And if you want to criticize the homeless I suggest you walk a mile in their shoes to find out just how they got there. You may be surprised at what you find. But with you I guess that would be too much to hope for.

Leave poor cappy alone. Isn't it enough that he has to survive with the same mental energy that a goldfish has. I for one applaude this individual who has managed to teach himself to type despite his lack of understaqnding and insight. I just wish he could get out of his parents basement every once and a while to get some fresh air. Carbon Monoxide poisoning from the furnace has caused about as much mental damage as possible while still allowing survival. Let's start a telethon to help poor cappy rejoin the real world.

Well..here we go again....

Way back on a related TYEE topic I made a point that this affordable housing issue should be, or begin with a Federal initiative.

Reported in the local paper( yesterday ), our Council has a draft proposal from the City's "affordable housing strategy".

Having attended a recent City meeting, and this topic also discussed, it was noted that physically designating a percentage/portion of any new development for social housing is not practical, quote " unrealistic ", but " cash -in -lieu - of" is easier to administrate.

Apparently, Developers of new developments currently pay 60 cents per buildable square foot into this affordable housing fund. The committee now recommends boosting this "cash-in-lieu -of" payments towards affordable housing to $2 per buildable sq.ft. for projects of 19 townhouse units or less...and $4 per sq. ft. for low rise and high rise buildings.

However...the problem these cash grabs do is the impact on those who are trying to stay NON-homeless,or acquire affordable housing ie those trying to actually own a home. The math suggests that a high rise apartment of say 1000 sq. ft will have an ADDED cost/levy of $4000...you can charge the developer all you want..its the BUYER who ultimately pays the downloaded cost. NOTE: this apparently applies to the unit regardless of unit's cost( ie via sq.ft.)...and high rises apartments can often be the more affordable than townhouses.

Add to that, the cost will be further downloaded via higher purchase price..hence higher property assessment, and the buyer will be paying property taxes also based on the added "cash-in-lieu of" costs added to the gross new living unit price....and these very insidiously- hidden added "cash - grabs" will likely put more people into the "in need of social housing" category.

The accumulated funds sit in the bank...till something is decided...if ever....but of course always looks good on paper.

PS they are looking at budgetting $100,000 to administer this program.

Has anyone ever followed up if these various cash grabs actually reached the promoted designated targets...? ie eco-fees etc.

Who do you WORK for Maestro? Seems you're always going to meetings.

The solution, as has been pointed our earlier, is mixed-use occupancy. Developer levies - applied to city-owned land, could have been leveraged into actual built projects long before now.

With a Federal government that is doing its best to find a way to shut down the safe injection site in the DES I don't expect anything to come from Ottawa and Victoria, for any but its developer friends is hopeless as long as the soup nazi is in power. The city needs to go it alone and, if necessary, shame the senior levels of government into coming along on the next project.

One real success would show the way - instead we're worrying about where the $300 million is going to come from to filter Greater Vancouver's water supply and clean up the dereliction of past administrations in permitting logging in the watersheds.

The mayor should just get busy and do it and quit flipping pennies around.

Dear Capitalism: It is apparent you do not want your tax dollars to go to those less fortunate than yourself. I am interested in knowing how you feel about your tax dollars going to pay the likes of Ken Dobel and Don Fairbairn 300 grand to "figure it all out out".

Capitalism

Get real, people who work cant exist on the pitance the corporation pays.
Its a fact of global economics, corporations pay workers as little as they can, driving up prices while wages stagnate, there comes a point where it costs more to work than stay at home. Welcome to that point!

40hr week at $10 = 1600
Taxes 25% 400
Rent 400
Food 400
transportation utilitys clothing health cleaning

Wow that leaves ppl with a whole lot left over after working for the man.

Personally I'd rather beg than work for a beggers salary.

G Ster:

NOYFB.

Just like I don't ask you...or what part of West Van you live in.(ie above or below Jimmy P's house ? )

However, to answer your other question...these MEETINGS are often in the evening, and advertised...and for interested parties. I basically sit and absorb the presentations and public comments , many of which I find both scary and amusing...with only about 10 % actually GOOD, and neither NIMBY ....nor stupid and ill -informed ....nor Leftie-ish rants.

However, one tip from experience is to be careful how one's Local Gov't can hide things in various Committee's ... the bureaucratic structure generally has various issues vetted through a designated Committee often made up of most of the given elected Council ...but they can get it passed very quickly later at the scheduled Council Meeting or Public Hearing stage if one is not careful...WHATEVER the issue is. Aka Stay on top of the given issue, at the Committee level,thus can the citizen/s have much input, impact and often force a 2nd look ,amendments, gridlock etc..

At least the TYEE is at times much better in comparison....but then again getting out in the real link -free non -cyber world can be more enlightening too.

PS However, this evening I have another meeting...but you're not invited...neither are certain TYEE posters...so don't even think of crashing it....capisce' ? as I have friends in high places...comprende'?

maestro
They don't even let guys who drive 19-year-old cars into West Van anymore.

I'm self-employed and I can do several things at the same time - otherwise I wouldn't be able to take on you and 3 or 4 other neocons at the same time without ever breaking a sweat.

I always took you for some kind of agent.

Thanks for removing the mystery.

Remember that joke about the elephant?

Goodness--I can't help but be an editor:
"exorbitant","whose","paid","beggars",
"pittance","accommodation" are the correct spellings... I couldn't even get through this thread-EDIT EDIT EDIT your work!

G' ster

....Nice try.

How would YOU know they don't allow 19 year old cars in West Van ?

Also, you are exclude the wealthy Collector/ Vintage car market, many of which are far older than 19 years.

Didn't Jimmy P. lend you John Lennons' old Rolls Royce at least once ?

There are lots of elephant jokes.... "white" elephant has NDP within Wikipedia definition...

How do you get a Leftie to change a light bulb...???

Yes, thou art a party of many talents G'Ster ...you should come over from the dark side...maybe Jimmy P. will give you ANOTHER job, if Glennochio " F's" up ie ...10..9...8...7...6...5...4...

PS ..FTR...I never said I was a neo-con, but you yourself admitted you were as far "Leftie" as is possible....which is your "right"...right ?

Have a good one.

A NDP member in the house today in Victoria spoke of a squatter who was burned very badly in a fire. medical costs in th burn unit for the past year exceeds ONE MILLION DOLLARS.Nobody mentioned the pain and suffering. Others were hurt in the same fire. So it seems the BC Government has money to try to fix a person in a hospital but doesn't want to set up reasonably housing for the folks. If the bottom line is dollars, I figure housing would be far cheaper that jails, policing , health issues and long term stays in extensive care. Be as right or left wing as one wishes to be, the costs can be reduced by basic housing. we need social housing now, so lets quit talking and start delivering. Personally I get sick of the stories of poor folks, or people down on their luck, sleeping in junked cars, or out on empty spaces.

maestro
The joke about the elephant was that it was the product of a committee that had started out with the task to design a cow. I figured as an inveterate 'meeting-goer' you'd have had that one cold, no?

So you're confirming the rumour about that car restriction in West Van? Thanks!

I knew there had to be a reason behind all those gated communities - keep out the real people!

I was thinking of your fledgling stand-up career when I heard about Michael Richards’ flame-out; maybe you could get a booking now that he’s looking for work in human relations.

I said you were a neocon.

G'ster:

In West Van , at the Hollyburn club you have a membership in(redundant) the "committee" joke may involve an elephant, but the rest of us heard the "Camel is a horse designed by committee". Next time...ask Jeeves to translate it into a lower class level.

No..you obviously have inside info about the 19 year old car Bylaw(...much like your ill gotten gains via your stock portfolio..good thing you cashed in Enron and Bre-X in time) besides maybe Harald Kann.

That 1987 Japanese Car of yours ie coincidentally exactly 19 years old ...hmmmm...which you drive probably has a Porsche underneath the rusty 1987 body held on by gold plated-velcro.

Poor Michael Richards ..see ...probably had a TYEE posse heckling him and he over-reacted.....probably labelled a neo con for life. "Serenity now" x 2 . His Kramer character otherwise will go down as one of the greatest contributions to the culture of Western civilization.....besides Al Bundy, Beavis and Butthead(aka Harald Kann) and South Park.

Of course I know the camel joke: The iconography of the elephant suited my purposes...adopt, adapt and improve as Monty always said; that's python not the field marshal.

I did own a Porsche for a while - wonderful piece of German engineering - but only marginally more reliable than a Fiat I bought from Specialty Motors in North Van. Both those were a while back, I have another friend with an ‘evolved’ 911 who says things are much improved and Porsche now sails past the Fiat in more ways than one.

I only cross the Lions Gate Bridge to visit a lawyer friend of mine. He drives a Jaguar. That pretty much tells the whole story.

Michael Richards? Best explanation I've got is that he is a washed up actor and shouldn't, like someone else I know, have tried standup.

Think we could get back to what we agree on - that providing decent housing for a few thousand people who are living in flea-bag hotels on short leashes or on the street ought to be a higher priority at all those committee meetings you attend?

G'ster:

Actually, the truth is out their and I am reeling it in like a monster sturgeon...North Van eh..that's the Darwinian ooze/enclave of West Van wannabees.

Regardless, 2-3 meetings a month (one with a volunteer group) is about the norm. Too many other commitments with family. What is useful at meetings is info one may not otherwise obtain...as well as a pulse on the public mood...and the given group is somewhat of a statistical representation of the overall public mood. Often one can see why politicans and bureaucrats get away with what they do....they see the general public's own playing field and foster their own agendas accordingly.

Our new evolving City Plan talked about social housing...in the big picture...right from the horses(NOTE: not camels) mouth...and one can see exactly the vision moving forward...versus reading a report. I conclude that our own City is looking to liberalize the use of basement suites, and very likely a cash grab imposed on new home buyers via levies to pool into a fund and build social housing when ____???? and where____???

Personally, I think the City should purchase some 30 +year old apartment blocks, physically sound but likley depreciated to lot value,......update them..., convert them into social housing and maybe even as you suggested, G West, use the successful American models. The fact they haven't seems to indicate something else, and likely far less cost effective..if at all.

Michael Richards ... like ol' Mel...made a serious error in judgement. Make a sincere apology, maybe donate to the appropriate cause/charity as further penance, and move on. I have more concern over those who keep throwing stones and have more on order.

That's a decent idea but I doubt it'll work in the DES. Problem there is that, by hook or by crook, those folks have now fashioned some kind of 'community' and they have at least a nominal claim on trying to pursue it down there. Wood frame 3-story walk ups,
thick on the ground elsewhere in the city and no doubt of limited life expectancy, aren't the rule down there. But, you make a good point - in the sense of being manageable - smaller, diffuse centres are probably better and easier to get going. But they have to be integrated with retail/commercial/service nodes or they won’t work – my view. That’s what the Chicago study proved – the vital thing to remember is that you are rebuilding lives and the community itself.

If social housing is nothing more than a sop to the masters of the universe to get the problem out of the public’s view, we’re still going to be having this discussion in a generations’ time. That’s what Cappy doesn’t understand. This is not a trickle down thing and it can’t be opposed from on high either – it must be constructed, piece by piece, out of the broken shards of humanity who live down there now.

Size and complexity, for this kind of housing, is not necessarily the right way to go.

I bought the Fiat in N Van; I don’t live there – never have. When I cross the bridge, I’m travelling north not south.

Those kinds of attitudes - like our commonly held ones about the poor and the way the system 'works' don't come from nothing.

Mel and Michael can't just move on from a demon that is, in my view, part of their makeup. It's like systemic poverty - there are no easy solutions. They need to get back down to earth - onto the street, as it were. Richards might have a chance because I suspect he's not as wealthy as Mel - Mel will fail because he has no 'reason' to change. He thinks he's a master of the universe and the rules don't apply. My view.

Re Social Housing:

Its always a tough call as to what's the best long term investment...short term can simply exacerbate the problem. Also a mini - gulag of a mass "this is ours vs theirs turf" creates ghettos...rich and poor alike.

In the disperse = integrate model their are two group homes in my area, which in my view are a form of social housing. Originally, I wasn't even aware of their existence. One group home deals with people who seem to be self sufficient but emotionally /mentally challenged albeit to a minor degree.

I'd guesstimate the value of this converted older residential home is $1 million +. Bylaws limit the numbers..ie less than 10 people. Another group home is for victims of spousal abuse. This is recent (ie new)construction, and a good guess would be about $1.5 - 2 million, and again the bylaws would limit this to less than 10 people.

Of course, we are not even talking about annual operating costs. However, we had a huge outcry by certain visible members of our community as to this group home issue...which the politicians duly took note of. This will shape the vote sequestering politicians' views to any/all social housing.

Not all the poor are the same..they are in their unfortunate circumstances for various unfortunate reasons. Do we lump the people who went bankrupt with people who are addicts...or have mental health issues? Hence my view it needs niche' diagnosis and treatment in niche' fashion, and the logical extension is niche' dispersal in the community, which further has integration in the community as a positive byproduct.

In my view there are two paths...do we create a quick fix and build the housing to keep people off the streets...like a In-Site version of harm reduction accomodation = "THE END" ....or do we look at the equivalent of "lets wean them off poverty and bring them up as equals"... and not the phony liberal views of someone else pay for it, NIMBY, and continually throw money at the non -cure relapse.... vs. a far better " CURE and PREVENT " non- relapse.

I think the key is to convince society that there are workable solutions,aka a PLAN,.. and society will support it...it taps and resonates the inner humanity deep within us all. Bad solutions that do not tackle the "big picture" simply turn people off , exacerbate the problem and thus create and entrench two societal solitudes.

This is much along the line of welfare/social assistance stats...apparently the majority of welfare recipients are in short term need ...and simply in need of temporary assistance to get back on their feet....who can begrudge that? The scammers are in the vast minority.

Historically, it takes two...(i)the given parties in need and (ii) a supportive society , BOTH in sync.

I respectfully disagree. This is not a problem for consensus building - which has already failed and failed and failed.

In this one tiny area - tactically, [not methodologically I'd hasten to add (and I assume you'll know what that means)], I agree with Giuliani.

What is needed is leadership.

Once that - and believe me truly courageous leadership is a very rare commodity in areas where the necessary operative emotions are support, sacrifice and empathy - is in place the tactics and the methods have been demonstrated by others and in other places.

Most people don't see this as a democracy issue, but in the end, that's what it is. You’d be surprised to know that I think Harald Kann may well understand that as well as anyone on these pages

Short term, actually, is all there is - solve the short term and the long term will look after itself.

My view.

But it takes courage, courage to face your friends when they don't think you're the best guy in the world any more. How many politicians have that these days?

Last two I remember were Dave Barrett and Pierre Trudeau, with an honourable mention to Rene Levesque. And, as much as I disagree with him and think he's wrong headed and dangerous - Stephen Harper is showing the odd sign that he possesses a similar kind of fundamental courage too.

History is better written at least 50 years after the fact. It's vital to move on.

G West:

Further to the broader social housing discussion...it leaves the interesting sub-discussion re: what are the "village borders".

I don't live in Vancouver...thus do I instead focus on that which exists in my own community at the Local Gov't level...and the DES is not my so-called problem..its Vancouvers' problem, if for no other reason that neither my vote nor my tax dollars are directed to Vancouver City Hall .

...OR do I think Nationally/Federally, and umbrella them as Canadians in the search for Federal Gov't based-solutions.

One needs a term of both jurisdiction and reference.

As it stands, I see this problem as another version of downloading. Local Gov'ts often tend to work as feudal states with a " re-invent the wheel" operating manual, and consistency and practicality can very often go out the window. Their formal Local Gov't mandate and subsequent forte' never was really to deal with these issues, and likely for good reason.

However, the Big City model should be taken note of..ie if places like Surrey begin to challenge Vancouver for the greatest population Crown...is it a stretch that a DES will not occur in Surrey etc. once a critical mass of sorts has been reached ? Perhaps other Local Gov'ts are actively planning to make sure no such parallels occur.

Finally, I think Vancouver had an invisible noose comprised of many connected threads and slowly coralled the social problem/s into this DES area as part of a long -term active agenda... it was not simply a "fluke".

Whats the phone number for 911??

G West is complimenting some alleged neo-cons..ie Guiliani, Harper.

Leadership is fine...but where it has failed Canadians is the Trudeau-ish " Watch Me" vs " What, me worry ??? " constituents.

Barrett was an interesting con job... a mini -Trudeau...nice jolly Davie-boy with a few one liners while on the leash of McDonald and Williams. In my view Davie couldn't help but take notes from the zeitgeist haze of Herr Trudeau, the blatant rip-off is amazing.

Canadians seem to be enamoured by ass h*les like these two in a "Made in Canada" political version of the Stockholm Syndrome.

The politics were set in motion by Trudeau types.that long term was thrown out the window...with vote grabbing policies and boogeyman/straw man campaigns and tap the public's programmed " attention span " du jour.

Thats why I respectfully dispute your premise re: leadership , the leadership mould is more like an ice sculpture in Osoyoos in mid summer, I'm sure you get implied the analogy.

I'm commenting on their occasional grasp of the idea that 'leadership' means something more than finding the best way to continue to exercize hegemony over others and to hang onto power in the next general election. In other words, the recognition that leadership isn't always about popularity.

I obviously overestimated your ability to understand a concept like that - it won't happen again.

In my view, being a decent human being and recognizing the shared humanity of one's fellow citizens is not a 'local' issue.

However, I won't attempt to discuss such ideas with you again.

It's clearly a total waste of time.

G West:

Unfortunately, where you and I unfortunately differ, and you further unfortunately misinterpret as a pissing match, is you appear to be more idealistic/idealogue/ dogma driven.

I am not saying "G West"'s world/vision is not commendable, nor a worthy model...but perhaps this is better analogized as you are more the architect and I am the engineer...

I look at the particular variables as they exist...and state that to get from A to B unfortunately first must often go through C to D to E....all the way to Y . You seem to be an A to B ....or pole vault from A to Z "type". Most issues are not like that, and often need a retro-forensic analysis.

King Kanute types needs to learn its 24/7...not only be perceived as correct 1/2 the time...and pissing into the wind has a predictable result each and every time.

Perhaps we need a Kamikaze -style leadership where one or two major issues will be dealt with come hell or high water...and the last thing the candidates worry about is re-election. Call it "Patchwork issue balkanization remediation".

Otherwise, the "occassional grasp" you allude to will be just that ....."occassional".

No!

This has nothing to do with a rhetorical pissing match.

I tried to engage you in a serious way on a serious subject and you came back with that post about calling 911.

You are either deliberately obtuse or an 'agent' of some kind. A consideration, you should know, that several of us here have been thinking for some time.

If you're going to post baloney don't be surprised if it comes back to you sliced!

You didn't understand that on the previous housing thread and you appear to have learned nothing since.

G West :

Comrade....

The 9 - 11 comment was only meant as mild dose of relative irony in the context of your "not quite so neo - con views" ...nothing more... nothing less.

...."agent" ? ...." sliced " ? ...tut tut...now.

You have to understand , G West, anyone can critique... there is a bitching gene in all of us... but there is also a less -primitive moving beyond that/pro-active gene as well.

Take a stab at solutions, or proposing them....as I have said many times before, intellectualizing these topics is " interesting ", but it seems many only want to dazzle us with their duly -noted intellect....so are some of us expected to bow in homage the TYEE Brainiacs with frankinscence and myrrh ??? ...in quasi-reference to the holiday season ?

One man's "obtuse" is anothers "both ends of the bat are equally blunt", figuratively speaking.

Also "agent" ??? huh ???...for what??? sounds like paranoia.

As for the current city administration being short on funds (remember that pile of pennies) for social housing, you might want to check into a certain $5 million line item in the current budget billed as a 'new funding request'.

In fact, it is the first one of 4 installments for a huge party the city is planning for the Olympics. When asked, the given explanation for the amount in the fiscal 2007 budget was that it was "... a deliberation of the corporate management team,"

Cry me a river. Even my old friend Marty Zlotnik is starting to question the way mayor Sullivan is doing business.

Sorry maestro, no more games.

Maestro if you had half is a brain, it would be lonely!
I have firsthand experience with affordable housing as I've been living in one for 16 years now, I pay (1/3) one third of my federal disability pension check for housing.
I had an accident in 1978 which left me a C5 – 6 quadriplegic I spent 11 months in an institution (One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest) the movie is dead on! (In those days "Out Of Sight Out Of Mind")
I escaped with two other inmates (residents) and we started one of the first group homes with subsidize housing and we kept this group going for 10 years!
Again in 1989 I was caught in a government Catch-22, we couldn't get housing because they wouldn't give us home care, and because we didn't have home care we couldn't apply for subsidize housing. Fukin bureaucracy with no conscience and no brains

What I'm getting at here is the difference in costs to the taxpayer between institutional (non)care and affordable housing in 1989 the actual cost of keeping one person in an institution was about $200,000+ a year.
And the cost of affordable housing with commercial sites on the street level floor to help offset the costs per person would probably be in the neighborhood of 25 to 35 thousand a year!
Now if you took away all of these political perks and trips and the Sea to Sky highway for the rich as the taxpayer will only get two weeks use for the 2010 Winter Olympics and we the taxpayer will be stuck for many years paying off this total disaster with all of its cover-ups!
Gordon Campbell's job is to put B.C. so far in debt that for the next 30 years or more we'll be paying off to the corporate whores!
Campbell has sold his soul!

G West;

What City are you specifically referring to in the $5 Million sermon you posted ...and the huge party ....etc....Vancouver ?

Much of that sort of fluid - funding you allude to can come from Casino revenues, if you are aware of this( but I won't insult you with insinuating you don't , I'll generously assume you do ).

The criteria for % of Casino Revenue given to the Local Gov't (as its' share for hosting the given casino)is effectively there are NO criteria, the Local Gov't has the in-house discretion to spend it as they choose, which leaves these types of decisions in one's Local City hall's hands.

It can end up a slush fund, which was my suspicion would happen when these casino funds first came about, as they are not considered taxpayer funds per say, simply bonus/gravy $$$$.

Again, clarify.

" Games " ?
Seems more like an intolerant preacher , Rev. G West.

This is a budgetary future 'expenditure' maestro - $20 million for a civic shindig as part of the Olympic celebration - money that's being hived off for that purpose instead of being used to address social housing.

It is just one small aspect of the way Sullivan's NPA administration is doing 'business'.

It's simply a question of priorities and it is abundantly and increasingly clear what the city's priorities actually are.

As to what city is involved? C'mon, maestro, no more games - that was obvious - unless you're asleep at the wheel. What other mayor uses pennies as a prop?

What other jurisdiction has Marty Zlotnik as a bagman?

You're the self-described expert on such things. Further clarification ought to be unnecessary.

BC Dude:

" Hey Man "

You may add something to the debates if ya don't spice them with bad hair day rants. Some of what you post is good info...However, the rest of it is simply more and more on par with now- classic character/s in many Farelly brother movies.

Sorry to hear about you unfortunate circumstance ...good on ya for perservering in the past present and foreseeable future. Continue to move foward.

"Peace Bro"

Maestro my bog has nothing to do with my condition except to show you firsthand Why affordable housing is much cheaper than sticking people with physical & people with mental disabilities, which many of the people who are homeless have serious issues on this.
Campbell's cuts have taken most of the social network Away if not all, to help these poor souls with the Devils they carry!
And your rant about bad hair days by splicing up my blogs? Makes no sense.
You say "continue to move forward", I'd say if anyone knows, I would know how to move forward and have been doing so for 28 years!

correction
sticking people with physical disabilities & people with mental disabilities into institutions

BC Dude
You should take note of this,
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20061127.wcanwest1127/BNStory/Business

Canwest must be starting to bleed money, they're coming cap in hand for more from the Feds.

Alci, Canwest's Mr. Asper whinnnning deserves all the worst that we can throw at them.
The crap they've spun, non news on Glo bull TV's, Van Sun, Van Province etc lies and in bed with the Campbell cartel criminals.
I hope this is the start of the so called house of cards?
Right on there is still some thread of democracy left!

Very interesting!
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2006-01-20

Did anyone see on the Legislature channel where the Opposition kept the B.C. Legislature in session most of Monday night?

Did anyone see any report of it in the CanWest newspapers today (Tuesday)?

What kind of media do we have, anyway, where people need to ask this kind of question?!!

Isn't there an official who listens to complaints if you buy a bag of 50 jellybeans then when you open up the bag you find only 23 jellybeans?

Or if you pay $1 for a newspaper with all the B.C. news and you open it up and find only things about somebody's new hair colour or discussions of the monarchy but nothing about an all-night session of the BC legislature?

I'm not trying to take away from the blog on the homeless, as that is a total disgrace in this rich Province that has a 7.9 billion dollar surplus over the last four years! The Tyee "February 21, 2006"

BC Mary you are one awesome Investigative Reporter if it weren't for you, this whole BC Legislature scandal which affects everyone of US in OUR Province of British Columbia.
It seems like the whole justice system starting with Gordon Campbell's AG (Wally Oppal) The Tyee "November 20th 2006"
Like so many other things that are being burried, and so many backroom deals being made, and not for the good of US the BC taxpayers. Shame
Delay, Delay, Delay
http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/
also honourable mention
http://houseofinfamy.blogspot.com/
Dishourable mention
CanWest

Mayor Derek Corrigan says for more than 10 years municipalities, including Burnaby, have asked Victoria to provide funding for shelters for the homeless. But he says no significant action has been taken. Corrigan says his city came up with the idea of using a vacant women's prison to temporarily house people during the winter, but he says the province rejected the idea.

He says this housing crisis was completely preventable if only the government had listened to their requests and provided some funding for shelters years back. Corrigan says the province is responsible for social housing, and cities just don't make enough through property taxes to take on such projects alone.

The Minister of Housing has some choice words for Burnaby city council. Minister Rich Coleman says Burnaby is the worst community when it comes to the issue of social housing. He says there are funds available, and Burnaby would have homeless shelters if it truly wanted them. Coleman says during his year and half as the minister of housing, no one on Burnaby council has come to talk to him about shelters for the homeless.

Coleman says with regards to the women's prison proposal there are some holes in the city's plans. He says the facility is out in the southern part of the community in an industrial area that is difficult to get to, and he wonders how homeless would be able to access a shelter there.

Does this make Sam look good and Comrade Derek bad?

I dunno realisticman. I thought funds were the big problem in Vancouver too until I found out about the $20 million being set aside for an Olympic party.

Maybe Burnaby could get matching funds for their 2010 party? Does Burnaby have NPA bagmen too?

Seems to me 20 million dollars $20,000,000.00 is a huge despicable waste of taxpayers hard earned cash.
I guess they'll hide that in their bottomless money pit?
SRO going for condos, greed.
Nothing for the working poor as they slowly go broke just trying to keep up to the awfull inflation price of Groceries UP, UP & AWAY!
We be getting it in rent & grub = 1 loaf of cheap bakers bread in 1 year from .98 cents to $1.78 that's a hell of a jump?