Part of a trend-business screams that they can't find workers while BC ferries builds in Germany (very high price labour.)

I wish the discussion around this topic would focus on the issue, which is often mis-stated. Jim Sinclaiur in the article is quoted as referring to "immigrants"

The article, and indeed several others in the media recently have nothing to do with immigrants, rather they have to do with "foreign workers" euphamistically called "guest workers" who work for an employer in Canada for a fixed period and are sent home-they are citizens of the home country and often pay taxes in the home country when they work overseas. In most countries that employ "guest labour" they have few if any rights and even where they do have rights, most of them either do not know what there rights are and consequently are prime targets for abuse in the countries in which they work. It is simply indentured labour and the home countries love (the phillipines and pakistan are prime examples, Mexico increasingly so), are more than pleased to send their citizens as guest workers under deploarable conditions anywhere in the world in order to get the money-remittances or taxes sent home.

Immigrants, on the other hand are what we are most familiar with in Canada. People who move to a country such as Canada to live permanently in the country and be a part of the country, the vast majority become Canadian citizens and fewleave

I'll bet if anyone went around to all the other 2010 venues you would see the same human rights bull.
BC IS, I THINK A TESTING GROUND TO SEE HOW FAR THESE [Bilfinger Berger etc] VERMIN CAN SINK OUR HARD EARNED LIFE STYLE!
Me, A retired Carpenter who took a 4 year Apprenticeship in Kelowna.
It is also happening on the Rav, ALRT 40+ South Americans were brought in for Slave Labour at $5.hr and corralled in our 1st class show case tourist accommodations 2400 Court Kingsway.
This court was condemned by Van city and was to be bulldozed?
We have to stand up for our rights as Canadians!
And yet we, the taxpayer are still going to be charged/saddled with a huge deficit for 20-30yrs......
I personally don't want to have the 2010 Winter Olympics as do many of my many friends!
The Tyee should hold a poll on this Waste & for what 2 weeks then a very rich mans Paradise bought and paid for by us.
Whistler & all the mountains were bought out by a Company/Corporation, but we are still paying for this extremely huge $1,000,000,000+. Highway

A p___ off Canadian Harper = Afghanistan
Gordo = BC Leg scan & $6. Cancelled Apprenticeship program, 714 babies dead & buried & on, & on,
BC & Fed Libs involved in organized crime, all hushed up till Dec 04 Six years later?
Sam Sullivan gonna bust big crime jay walkers, littering etc, this should put a big dent in OC, U think lol

No problem folks. If it's a company that employs union workers, the BC government don't want them around. Forget the revenue generated by paying local hi skilled workers. One person mentions , we go offshore to build ferries at subsidized yards, we pay the extra amount as even a so called hands off company like BC ferries can't get the same tax allowances a government can get. But heck folks the local ship builders are those awful union bullies. And of course the BC taxpayers end up paying . Hey Olympics. Up comes the taxpayers for a two week event with only an additional 115 million and change. Oops no more money except maybe for added security. We are subsidizing the BC Ferry system as well.
Gosh are we ever stupid. A majority of citizens here actually voted for Gordo and his weird ideas. I recall a old guy I met down at the stock exchange long ago. BRIC shares were going down the tube. He told me he had to believe they would rebound. So I asked why he was so sure. He told me he had put almost 75 thousand dollars into them because the BC government wouldn't lie to him, besides it was all the money he had saved. Silly old bugger

so why don't the smarter than everyone shipbuilding unions just quit bitching, start a company / ship building Co Op or whatever and bid on building BC Ferry ships ?

Why ??

They can get seed money out of the billion dollar rich BD Fed, get all their members to buy memberships in the Co Op and start a company. Then they can repsond to RFP's, put their best bid forward and if they have the best bid - price wise, guarantees of delivery dates, best ship design, then they can all benefit.

Or do they just like to whine on, blame someone else and expect others to pay for their desired outcomes ?

Interesting idea to conduct a poll to see how many people actually want the Olympics. I don't think I know anyone that does.

As for temporary foreign guest workers, maybe we should give them the vote. What the hell, we are giving everything else away.

It should be pointed out that German shipbuilding companies actually pay significantly higher than Canadian companies howvever they tend to focus on keeping their yards operating at full capacity as much as possible while canadian firms (and this is not negative toward Washington Marine which is busy right now)tend to adjust their workforce to the size of the work available. That was fine in the 80's and 90's when there were workers (union or non-union)who would hang around between jobs-there was not much else to do. Now they don't, they take their toolbox and fast as a thunderbolt they head for the oil patch (wouldn't you?) It appears to me that maybe we could learn a bit from some European practices.

On labour from offshore, please don't get me wrong. I am strongly in favour of recruiting immigrants to move to BC and work here (live and make a life here with families etc). I am very strongly against instituting an indentured labour system preying on the poverty of third world countries. (and supporting the wealth of some third world leaders who would rather push "guest workers" out to work somewhere than work to develop their own economy as leaders in countries like Korea or Singapore have done)

Logjam:
I think a union owned firm did try to bid on Highways maintenance about a year ago.

The bid was not considered due to the relationship of the owners and the employees

Side bar, the German shipbuilder who got the contract from BC Ferries was under bankruptcy protection for
2 years and has just come out of it. Then we go ahead and use them, the German government has poured
money into rebuilding the industry and keeping the jobs alive, while here in BC we can't wait to insult and
undermine our own workers. Evan thou we have built every ship in the fleet , the largest fleet in the world with a flawless safety record until Mr. hann took over

I heard the BCFL news release yesterday and have to admit, based upon some personal knowledge, that I was somewhat puzzled.

While not involved in any way with the GEB, I do know that a "specialized" German crew of 18 have a one-year work permit.

This "speicalized" German crew is very well paid and will be involved in the foundation or pile-driving aspect of the GEB.

They also work in other jurisdictions such as France, Norway, Germany, and Australia.

My understanding is that, in this particular instance, the GEB foundation/pile-driving work is more complex involving deeper depths/complex soils than, say, the Alex Fraser Bridge foundation work.

I certainly don't have a problem with that.

Typical Sinclair spin-doctoring and exagerating problems to look after his union paycheque.

Hasn't anyone noticed that construction costs are out of control on all fronts?! And Sinclair and his union pals are now trying to exploit this by grabbing a monopoly on labour - holding us all to ransom.

We need more construction workers in this province and cheaper construction costs otherwise housing and infrastructure will never be affordable.

Siwash rock says "We need more construction workers in this province and cheaper construction costs otherwise housing and infrastructure will never be affordable." Well, housing at least, sure as hell won't be affordable if potential buyers don't earn decent wages.

Progress at any cost siwash.rock in your chase to the bottom,

So if a Canadian steel worker is paid 25 bucks an hour then why should a Italian worker be paid only 12-15 bucks an hour for the same job. What is it that makes him less than a Canadian worker, is it the brown skin, please help me out here. Should we not be raising the standards of the global work force to ours not ours to theirs. So if a call center worker in Bombay makes 10 bucks a day should a call center worker here make 11 bucks a day to compete or lose his/her job.

What kind of work do you do siwash.rock , maybe your employer can grant temp permits for your job, we are a now a global economy and India is full of high teck workers anxious for your job.

What Jim was saying was, if you want to bring workers here for a skills shortage etc , make them citizens and equal and not an underclass of lower paid 2nd class citizens.

Plus , higher paid workers spend more money in the local economy , foreign workers pay no taxes to us and take all their wages home. The only people that benefit from this action are company shareholders in the German company and right leaning ideologues.

Oh and give me a break Bob, we are not morons here, I am sure we can handle such a huge job, most Canadians don't suffer from low self esteem like you.

Come on, siwash.rock, you wouldn't look after your paycheck? Are you some special breed of humanity? If there's a need then fill it. If not then let's not do a variation on the US method and import the legal equivilant of wetback labour.

Whats a pile Driver, where's a German when we need one

I am a trades worker i make 26 dollars an hour i was in a conversation with a guy and he said in Texas a guy like me gets paid 8 dollars an hour i was insulted i thought to my self is that a good thing? he cannot live the life that i live i drive a newer truck able to go skiing lots i live a good life. I would not on 8 dollars. Here's my point i build a product that gets sent all around north America. the last one i built went to new york. There are thousands of companies that build what we build and i am sure there in one in Texas. I have worked with immigrated labour immigrated trades workers they are not as well trained as Canadian trades workers. But the figures must look good on a calculator to immigrate labour but in practice it probably is counter productive.

Most construction, outside of heavy commercial, is non-union. Materials, fuel and so on cost more — you can have imported labour, but they still need transportation and tools to be of any use, especial in the residential and non-urban commercial martket. And that means paying workers more than 8 or 10 bucks an hour.

The fact is, North Americans have got-off on cheap, shitty, disposable construction for years. It's just that now, shitty, disposable construction isn't so cheap. Welcome to reality.

Things in BC don't change much when there are right of center governments hell bent on crushing unions and companies that hire union. Way back as things were starting to be built for expo 86, the south side of false creek got shut down. Seems some concrete company was getting contracts for less money, and nobody would use his services. When the thing was settled, the first thing WCB did was shut down the Crane operation. Not trained and the crane was unsafe. When the Jack Davis building was built here in Victoria a non union company was chosen. No penalties for delays. It got done finally but not on or below budget. Same for the sports palace that still isn't finished. My God, they were dragging people off the street to try to get it done on time. Almost ready now, two years late. When the Socreds fired the highway workers, it snowed and the upper levels highway in North Vancouver couldn't be handled by the nice non union company. Lots more examples if you want them. Some towns are getting smarter and don't want to get involved in PPP's either.

Stuart: "Oh and give me a break Bob, we are not morons here, I am sure we can handle such a huge job, most Canadians don't suffer from low self esteem like you."

Stuart: "Whats a pile Driver, where's a German when we need one"

Hey Stuart, I just couldn't resist, have you ever heard of the word *wingnut*?

Amazing how many skilled workers there are in Ontario auto industry, when GM, Ford, etal want to set up a plant there (and collect some lucrative government - both prov and fed - "incentives).

If companies had to pay union wages and provide all the standard benefits to their "guest workers", I imagine much of the flap about labour shortages would disappear overnight.

The unions should push for such standards if they want to stop the race to the bottom. Is it true that South American offshore workers are being paid $5/hour on RAV? How's that possible if our minimum wage is $8?

I guess it's about what $5.00 an hour gets you. Obviously here it gets you F all. But if all expenses are paid, and you don't have to pay taxes, and a dollar in our world is worth $50.00 an hour there, then it becomes an argument of relativity.
We are not helping ourselves by complaining about this.
Isn't all you leftists that want to spread the wealth around until it happens to you.
We are in a global world. Look at 911, we can not exist in a vacuum anymore.
Watching a documentary right now, " The Children of Breslin"
About the Islamofascists from Chechenia who took over a school in Russia on the first day of school about 4-5 tears ago..
It's on channel 20 CBD Newsworld as we speak.

Tough call ....but what's the background to all this imported labour etc....????

LOGJAM 603 seems to make the best "put up or shut-up" argument.

I seem to recall reading that the previous Ferry contracts were almost exclusively "made -in -BC " ferries. This of course creates a monopoly, which then can lead to delays and cost overruns...= $$$$$ overtime much like the 2010 Olympic scam.

I recall reading many BC ferries built in BC had cost overruns...and why not if Gov't has infinite $$$$'s right...The new ferries built elsewhere have fixed prices with penalties for any delays ... correct?

Perhaps this is simply a message that the BC Gov't is saying future BC ferries will be built in BC if the unions will live in the real world....

I know from an extremely reliable source (once in senior BC civil servant management) that when contracts were issued in their own public sector entity...... the + /- was approx 10 % ie if a BC company was 10 % over or less than the competing bids...the BC company still got the contract.

Is this good or bad...the $$$s supposedly stay in BC ....or is it ripe for abuse???

The Gov'ts are probably bridging both the global economy, to avoid softwood lumber type conflicts .....and to send certain sectors a message that their will be no special favours or views of historical entitlement for certain groups .

I agree that there should be a balance, and perhaps it is lacking...it seems Gordo capitulated to the BCTF's mostly bogus claims and gave them a very generous raise. In my view it was simply to shut them up so as not to shit disturb during the 2010 Olympics which is another overbudget un-necessary fiasco.

Like one wise person said....Life itself is NOT fair....its simply what can be negotiated...which explains a lot, depending on the bargaining chips one has....

Is this good or bad...the $$$s supposedly stay in BC ....or is it ripe for abuse???

For BC, or anywhere else, to prosper people need jobs. Its a lot easier to give jobs to our own people, and keep the taxes and multiplier here, than it is to win contracts in other areas of the world. How many contracts in Germany support BC families?

Take care of our own first. Nobody anywhere thinks the theory of comparative advantage means a community is better off if every single job in that community is done by a foreigner at a cheaper rate. And if it isn't the case for all jobs why should it be the case for some?

Obviously we need things that can't be produced here and therefore we have to make something for others to buy from us to raise the cash to buy what we need. But if we even outsource jobs for domestic purposes such as building our own ferry fleet then how do we benefit? Would we also benefit by bringing in guest workers to be the crew on those ferries? Why not? Its the same theory.

Norman Spector likes to say we can't survive by taking in each other's laundry and he's right. But, our job of surviving becomes even harder if we outsource even our domestic jobs. If we're paying India to do our laundry it means we have to sell even more of our resources to pay for something we could have done ourselves. And of course it goes without saying that if we do our own laundry our kids don't have to go to another country and do theirs.

The federal human resource department (is it HRDC again?) decides whether to allow employers to hire temporary foreign workers based on the Immigration and Regugee protection regulations, which says the hiring of the foreign workers must have a "positive or neutral" impact on the labour market. To decide what that means, Regulation 203 says they must consider:

"...(c) whether the employment of the foreign national is likely to fill a labour shortage;

(d) whether the wages offered to the foreign national are consistent with the prevailing wage rate for the occupation and whether the working conditions meet generally accepted Canadian standards;

(e) whether the employer has made, or has agreed to make, reasonable efforts to hire or train Canadian citizens or permanent residents; and

(f) whether the employment of the foreign national is likely to adversely affect the settlement of any labour dispute in progress or the employment of any person involved in the dispute."

So in theory they can only hire temporary foreign workers if they have made a "reasonable attempt" to hire Canadians. An they must pay any foreign workers the "prevailing rate" that they would otherwise pay Canadians.

But the program may have a glaring issue they aren't addressing -- which is that the "prevailing rate" changes depending on supply and demand. If they define a "labour shortage" as any time when wages are rising, then I guess wages will never rise because foreign workers could be hired instead. Consider farming. Canadian farming businesses are hiring foreign workers to do hard farm work for minimum wages. Obviously no Canadian would do such hard work for such low wages, which would explain the difficulty in hiring Canadians.

Likely the contractor in question will argue that the bids that were submitted were higher than the prevailing rate and therfor they aren't obligated to accept them.

In regards to some comments above, remember that Canada does not have an open labour market (except within Canada that is), like in Europe where people can work in any country. We have a protected labour market but permit temporary foreign workers when reasonable efforts don't result in Cnadians being hired.

In the bigger scheme of things, the labour unions are making a valid argument. On the other hand, we are a relatively rich country and foreign workers, and their families, could benefit from the work. The Canadian unions could perhaps help negotiate to ensure that any foreign workers have the rights they deserve and that they receive union wages.

Again, the big question: does rising wages constitute a "shortage"? Are retailers and Tim Hortons in places like Victoria going to start hiring foreign workers instead of raising wages to $14/ hr ?

The immigration issue is a red herring trumped up by Sinclair as an excuse to block non-union workers and try to lock up the construction market for his own brothers and sisters. He's exploiting the immigration issue - playing the race card. Of course CBC were all over the issue today and gave him plenty of air time without a single challenging question. It made my stomach turn. He got a free ride as usual.

As for the private bidders on the ferry work, they clearly have sour grapes after losing the bid.

I'm having deja vu. Will we be expected to one day pay these guys for working for lower wages and not guaranteeing the same rights as others?

Sound familiar? Same deal as the trascontinental railway labour deal - an offshore contractor (Onderdonk) hiring offshore labour contractors in order to displace BC/Canadian workers (there weren't enough BCers to do the work, although Canadians had made their way to BC via the US and, as with Brits and others, via the sea).

So it seems likely that at some point collective guilt - or political responsibility - will kick in, and the public will foot the apology bill; these guys are basically landed immigrants without the rights of landed immigrants, as many can apply to stay after a certain period working here anyway. So why deny them their rights to equal wages and labour protections of others here already doing the work.

I'm NOT speaking as a labourite; just someone interested in the parallels with a certain old immigration/labour problem that's been one big political headache since the deal to bring BC into Confederation was done.

siwash.rock, seems you have a real axe to grind, I am not sure what you have against well paid workers who have a livable wage. Once again who benefits from bringing in 2nd class citizens, the money lost to the local economy does not get spent in your stores etc, when the HEU had its contracts broken and wages reduced , 12 million dollars per month was lost in the local economy. We live in a capitalist society which runs on capital, even Mr. Ford( a hard core conservative) realized that if he wanted to be successful their needed to be more people who could afford to buy his cars, hence he made better standards for his employees. I know the idea of bringing in cheap lower paid labour is very seductive for CEO's and shareholders but it is a fools game. And siwash.rock I am tired of you
getting a free ride , what occupation are you in, I want to find some some savings oversees, give me
20 min to fill your job. Screw you and your family and community , stop being selfish.

IAMC, nothing wrong with foreign labour and spreading our wealth around when real need and opportunity exists, as suggested in the HRDC guidelines above. But it's cause for concern when the export of jobs appears to be simply a ruse to lower local employment standards and score windfall profits.

I wouldn't accept Third World pay for the work I do, and I doubt you would either. Neither would we tolerate Third World standards in the other benefits we receive as Canadians. So why should we expect our blue collar workers to do so?

The German company bid for this contract based on current/anticipated Canadian labour rates. If they really needed imported labour and were perpared to pay union rates, the unions wouldn't have a case and we wouldn't be speculating here that it's just a scam to score exrta profit. We'd also spread a lot more wealth to the Third World if our guest workers were going back home flush with their union-rate paycheques--enough maybe to start their own small enterprises, etc.

Well I don't know where all these skilled workers are because I advertise like crazy and can't find them. Whoever said that foreign workers get $5.00 is simply blowing smoke. It is simply not true, I pay mune exactly the same as everyone else on my crews.

Part of the problem is the iron workers themselves. They are about as militant a bunch as anyone can imagne and having them on your site guarantees a bunch of petty squabbling from day one. In the past, the simply refused to work on any site with any non-union labour on it. That is pretty hard now when 80% of sites are now non-union. What they do now is act like prima-donna schmucks on any site they work on. Got a big pour going at 10:00am? Coffee time! Can't wait until 10:10, them iron workers gotta stick to the contract. For that reason, I trained my own iron men from former union members who got sick of paying dues to Americans so they could sit on strike half of the time.

A few observations:

1. Thanks to whatever drugs IAMClueless in on, the Tyee is rapidly becoming a parody/comedy site, rather than a place to discuss issues emanating from a reality based world. Also for the Clueless wonder, maybe he should go work with some "guest workers," you know, show 'em what a REAL Canadian is made of and all (and show all us slackers how easy it is to whip up bridges and live on 5-10 bucks an hour).

2.I think these neo-cons have actually been reading a little bit of history and are really pissed off at and jealous of that old carpetbagger Van Horne. I mean he made a fortune with a mega-project (remember the railroad and the Last Spike). He got to use cheap immigrant labor and be handed real estate in European country sized portions.

The Chinese workers couldn't bring their women, wouldn't want them wasting any energy on sex that could put down a couple more ties after all. To top it off they even got their cheap imported scab labor to PAY for the privilege of coming over to build a railroad on the cheap. Of course in them days the locals had a west full of potential wheat farms and fruit orchards and even potential mother lodes of gold, silver and other assorted minerals to deep them occupied.

How's about we collect a head tax again, then distribute that to the Iron-Workers who are either not skilled enough or too greedy to actually...you know, build any bridges, so that they can at least afford some gas to drive over the shiny new bridge and see how it is really supposed to be done! This is assuming they can actually afford to own and insure a vehicle to put that gas into. Maybe if they get their gas before November they can save a few bucks, the First Fool and his evil master Cheney are going to be pulling gas and oil out of their ass to keep the price down as much as possible until after pretend Election Day in the Land of the Freaks.

Why is Mexico the only country in North America where any of the people care about democracy?

Is it any wonder that they would really rather not have anybody running around with guns?

This argument that government support the economy by over-paying for goods and services to unions and other contractors is absolutely ridiculous. Such logic would lead us into a fiscal mess (....similar to the way the NDP left us last time they were in power).

As you know Stuart it is the government's job to care for those who can't care for themselves. We don't pay taxes to have this money distributed to middle class union members (yep - the average union person these days lives reasonably comfortably and should not need government hand-outs from fat contracts). I'm pleased to see the government and its contractors pushing hard to deliver projects on budget. I'd be even happier if the government turned its full attention on those that need it on the Downtown Eastside and for those under the care of BC Children's Aid. That is where they should be spending our money.

As for the construction business, as mentioned earlier the industry is at full employment. We’re desperate for workers (just look at the Need Help signs on any local construction site). Construction costs are completely out of control. We need more workers – from anywhere. Hearing Sinclair play the Race Card as a way to maintain the power of unions on the sector is galling. Watching Lefties of this site buy his argument is laughable.

Siwash who doesn't rock, your diatribe isn't even worthy of deconstruction as you race right out of the gate spouting untruths (a much nicer term than lies, though very similiar, wouldn't you agree?)Also you don't address any of the points I attempted to raise, which is normal for people speaking from an indefensible position.

Tell me the truth rockless, would you be happy to return to say.....the days of Dickens and the 12 hour work day for 6 1/2 out of seven, providing of course most of the half day off is spent in church? What about child labor? Kids will work for peanuts and candy, leaving lots of profits for the overlord class of which you so obviously consider yourself a member. I mean, why should the children of BC get a break when those kids in Malaysia, India, Pakistan and Persia are working their little hearts out to help keep their family in food.

Well put rkewen

Our buddy likes to name call and grind his Axe but he won't answer my basic question. What kind of work does he do.

Give me 20 min to outsource his work, I cannot believe he sucks money out of his shareholders pockets , so selfish.

His mind set, why should I pay a union worker a decent wage when their's lots of browns and blacks oversees who will work for food.

siwash.rock, you are the racist, explain who these people are worth less for the same work .

$15 an hour is out of control? I'd hate to see what in-control would be.

If I can't sell my product I lower my price. I don't demand that the government bring in millions of richer people so that I can get the price I want.

If construction sites can't tempt all the people out of Hasty Marts and video stores the answer isn't to get the government to allow them to bring in foreign workers.

Competition should sometimes work for workers, not always against them. But then history shows capitalists only like competition when its between workers.

Siwash:
I don't know why you lovers of the provincial Liberals/neoconservatives continue to tell us that the NDP left us in a fiscal mess. The Liberals' own accountants told them that the NDP had balanced the books and that when comodity prices rise (which they did) the economy would have, once again, been booming without making any changes. The turn around in the BC economy has nothing to do with the Liberals and everything to do with the demand for metals, trees, and fossil fuels. If it weren't for mad cow, many of the ranchers would be doing reasonably well too. The current BC and Canadian governments could raise the demand for BC beef if they would test every animal slaughtered. Why not blame these governments for bad practises that are hurtful to the farmers and ranchers in the BC economy? The Asian market for BC beef have been back on line by now if the Federal or provincial governments would have done what is right.

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1157061022567&call_page=TS_EditorialOpinion&call_pageid=968256290204&call_pagepath=Editorial/Opinion&pubid=968163964505

The above link is another reason why we shouldn't be bringing in foreign workers. We have enough problems on the horizon as it is what with our high dollar, slowing exports, slowing construction and the possibility of a US recession.

What seems to be missing from the equations??

A lot !!!

Unless I am mistaken Germany was once just Germany....then East and West Germany ..... now Germany (re-unified )again...Suffice it to say the communistic brand (East Germany) lost out.

In addition....Germany , like most European countries....seems to have a different Gov't and Union sector relationship...more as comrades and allies versus adversaries.

Like Henry Ford...I don't think anyone begrudges anyone a fair wage and a decent living....or we do slowly tip towards a quasi - 3rd world status.

However, the facet of the economy that can be deemed union members has peaked ie in the mid to high 30% range...is on the decline, for various reasons...some of which is out of the control of union members(ie forest industry ).

However, the more resilient unions are " coincidentially " in the Public Sector...or those that cling onto Gov't for work. I recall one labour negotiator stating that at the bargaining table there were two distinct sets of negotiations...(i) in the PRIVATE SECTOR it was based on the employers ability to pay......versus (ii) in the PUBLIC sector the view was that the Gov't has almost unlimited ability to pay...(ironic and illogical in that the PRIVATE sector pays the taxes to fund the PUBLIC sector). This in itself creates a two - tier Private vs. Public sector Union system.

There is a Union Leader in the US who broke ranks with a major US Union, got tired of the old entrenched limo- driving over-paid old boys union executive living like the rich and royal they supposedly detest..,....and he formed a new union and is actually working for his members and actually expanding the union globally..... on par with the times and the real world.

He is working co-operatively with employers,.. not adversarily...much like the European model.

The adversarial approach is like the dinosaur...old, tired dying...and has little public support. Gov'ts know this,....even the current NDP which was historically union friendly and this simply makes unions authors of their own demise...and cannabilizing other unions for members for their dues...almost like in a hypocrtical "free enterprise" parallel feeding- frenzy mode.

I recall the MONTY PYTHON skit called "The Communist Quiz"...a game show involving various world socialist /communist leaders...who tried to win nice capitalist- built furniture. They were asked some questions about politics and did well via their expertise on that topic , but failed on simple real world capitalist trivia. Old Karl Marx got stumped on the very last question....and left rather pissed off (quote: " Oooooh shit !!! ")as he couldn't avail himself of the capitalist - built prize.

Try downloading it...its quite funny, but a bit of a morality tale.

The key is flexibility and adaptability....and don't forget the huge labour forces being unshackled from the cages of communism and now part of the global economy and the tsunami - like equilibrium shift that has and will result globally as well.

PS ......and yes I have been a junior union member in 3 different unions...did my job well....paid my dues...etc. etc. ....yet in the end nothing to show for it from the union side... unlike what I was lead to believe.

Maestro:

Yeah maestro, too bad unions don't look after their members as well as them nice corporations like say.....Enron or one of them US Airlines that we used to see advertised on TeeVee do their retirees! The private sector will be sure to look after everyone's interests and would never exploit a person, or a resouce or a situation or a special relationship with a politician or anything like that. That is why the Gilded Age was so wonderful for everyone, well, except for the normal worker bee types!

And by the way Maestro, the excecutives of those with no respect for their pension liabilities are doing just fine, Thanx!

Except for the really egregious like maybe Kenny Boy Lay, and I'm not convinced he ain't sittin' somewhere real nice ordering another drink and maybe even fondling something that's also real nice!!!

maestro, did you read the article? The German company is telling BC contractors to take a hike. Its foreign versus domestic not just the old union versus non-union. Just because it was Jim Sinclair speaking out everyone automatically attacked unions.

Again, this isn't the issue. I'm sure we'll have a union versus non-union thread again soon to argue about though.

You're blaiming unions for not joining with gov't and business running the economy? Hate to tell ya this but they've asked for the European model many times, very publically too. They've been rejected whenever the Socreds/Libs were in power.

I'm sure it is, I love Monty Python. Especially the soccer match with Greek philosophers against German ones. Or Hitler in England, BC loggers wearing women's clothing etc etc. But with all due respect I don't take economic lessons from a comedy skit.

I'm not a member of a union and haven't been since I was 19.

To: rkewen .....aka Bill Gates or possibly Jim Pattison.

Like the MONTY PYTHON skit I quoted....I guess this has spawned a sequel.

Given life and society change....we all have individual views,...different levels of tolerance and thus grudging acceptance of progress.

I have been a union member,I have run my own business, I know rich people, I know poor people, I know PHDs' I know people that never made it past high school...most people I know put the United Nations to shame aka diverse backgrounds .

It serves no puposes to tar the majority with the actions of a few...its the big picture we all need to focus on.

Yes, I am glad people like Ken Lay, the Tyco executive, the others who milked their companies , and their shareholder and employees...are being charged and doing serious time....they are economic war criminals.

However,....Sorry, I have seen the same old tired rhetoric by the left wing....its beyond a broken record...its almost "believe us or ELSE"....a sort of political bullying.

At least communists are far more up front and honest...its pretty black and white where they stand....

Socialists, however, are like a remora on the capitalist system....totally dependent on it and the democracy that supports it(versus far more sincere communism), yet hypocritically bite the very hand that feeds it.

I love the term Cadillac socialists....it is almost becoming redundant. In a democracy, unions have every legal right to move to the "dark side" form a co-op/company and compete...why not ???

There is a local plywood company that has outlasted almost every union one in the Lower Mainland....because the workers are also the owners...with a line-up to join in.

Now...back to business...can I order some Microsoft products from you "Bill" and get a discount at the Save- On Foods non -organic meat counter "Jim". Any Spotted Owl burgers in bulk ???

You almost had me fooled. Whewwwww!!!

Or else join the endangered species list...you seem far too bitter to engage in a Big Picture view.....

memo to Maestro: adjust your medication.
really, you're losing me

Sounds like say....Halliburton to me or perhaps Bechtal or Alcan or Bombardier, shall I go on?

btw, me and Bill Gates have little in common other than perhaps a love of digital technology and a sense of compassion. Way diff tax/bracket or Postal Code though.

btw maestro, Kenny Boy is either shoveling coal under the supervision of Dick Cheney's immediate boss, Satan or laughing away the rest of his life on some tropical beach with afore mentioned drink and babe. The official story is he had a massive heart attack rather than accept his new position as bottom to Bubba, but with no autopsy and all, some people wonder!

rkewen:

Actually, Mexico could well be on it's way to either dividing the country, or having a civil war.........but either way, it's better than the pap we call government here......

Rkewen:

FYI : Medication is Made - in - BC UNION beer. Hate the light beer.

ALSO: Elvis and Jimmy Hoffa were going to Kenny's party and stopped in for a Spotted Owl burger...thanks and yummm!!!! ....Kenny invited both of us (BYOB)...says he likes the cut of your jib.......wanna share the cab fare ???

ALSO: You forgot to include me as guilty of bad management in the sinking of the Titanic in 1912....or kidnapping the Lindbergh baby in the 1930's (even though I was born in the late 1950's), throw in Pearl Harbour, Jack the Ripper, the Hindenburgh,..... but that never stopped the old "we know better side" eh ???.

Repeat the old rhetoric long enough then it must be T-r-U-e...

Rkewen....I think that you should take your blinkers off. Maybe that's why you don't get the point...You rail against a system you obviously are a part of...and are getting left behind in the dust.

Review the Plywood plant example. Worker/Owner combination...

Union officals embezzle too....and yet members vote them back in. Ask various local trade union members if they had their pensions cut and are now back in the workforce due to no choice...

Sorry , but my own life experience has shown that such views as yours are exclusive to the majority, lather up a minority into a similar bias... and ultimately fail upon deeper scrutiny. In fact, in my own union experiences, I was quite shocked(my own reality over-ruled personal bias ???) by how many "Union brothers and sisters" voted for non NDP parties ie they voted for the " dark" right - wing side...Seems even unions are not immune from this evil of democratic choice ...

Also; The ragging and slagging that involved other comments on this topic posted earlier makes me cringe to some degree...kneejerk demonize the messenger as some cold hearted capitalist scum of the earth..., and not debate their editorial comments. Call me biased,.....that's your democratic right..... but I can almost hear the cerebral steel door shut on any debate by many left wingers if it ain't the verbatim left -wing party line we are re-barfing. Very UNfortunate.

Your don't see/acknowledge/ debate the real world examples I cite...they are " hints - hints " to a solutions that actually exist elsewhere...why re-invent the wheel which often happens ??? Learn from what has happened elsewhere.

PS. Actually " rkewen" aka " Bill " I enjoyed your " WINDOWS 98 " version better....However, my quasi- "prescription " to you in order to avoid the certifiably left wingnut views ,....next time sell your ENRON etc. stock when the price is HIGH not when its about to tank...Usual strategy is to sell enough to break even, the rest is gravy....Don't thank me thank the Ontario Teacher UNION Pension Fund.

FYI Also: Fidel Castro is on Forbes Most Wealthy list..I recall a personal wealth of $3 BILLION Hmmmm " Viva hypocrisy "????. Fidel is willing to share cab fare too...gratuities optional,.....but he will offer Cuban cigars in lieu of.

Bush and Cheney are torn but are now going to Satan's party using Bin Laden's credit card to pay their cab fare. However Satan will pay for drinks, but somehow can't keep ice in stock...hmmmm capitalist opportunity ???.

Remember .....You heard it here first ..thus it must be T-r-U-e...especially if I repeat it often enough...right ??? !!!

maestro
What have you been drinking. All Forbes did was to aggragate Cuba's wealth and decide for itself that it all belonged to Castro. The man is an ascetic which you'd know if you actually read anything about Cuba.

Unbeknownst to all of you it is actually a German plot to export some of their 'guest workers'. Nobody has said that these people will actually be Germanic.

G West:

You have agreed that Forbes Magazine has noted it as such.

So, do we open the door to all other evaluations ???

TOP $$$ GUY Bill Gates value is based on market capitalization....but if he sold all his stock at once it would crash in value.

Castro , in his political situation, is more certifiably a billionaire than Bill Gates, given his broader portfolio aka power , not to mention an army at his disposal .

Its all relative...yet Bill Gates gets more beat up than Castro. Castro could, in theory, beat up on Bill Gates more than the converse.

Key worda are hypocrisy,misdirection and propoganda.

Bill Gates has taken out billions and the value of his stock hasn't crashed.

He's a billionaire, trust me.

By the way, Castro has denied he's a bilionaire, Gates hasn't.

Although, unless Gates and Castro are bidding for BC Ferry construction contracts I don't see the point of this tangent unless its simply misdirection and propaganda by the side that that can smugly spot hypocrisy in every other person but never see it in themselves.

how many assassination attempts on Bill now? Whats the number with Castro to this date..67 or something? The exploding cigar was a good one..
Sure Fidels a billionaire..but where can he spend it? Wal-Mart isn`t in Cuba yet to my knowledge..and how many Trabants or Ladas does a guy need on a small Island like Cuba?
Those green uniforms and black army boot s are pretty snazzy..Hugo Boss? Armani?
Didja read the Trudeau kids recollections of Fidel..apparently Pierre wanted to scuba dive while visiting Cuba..Fidel set him up with the tanks..and gear..they took Trudeau to the best spot for diving off the coast...Pierre recalled he was 65 feet down thinking he was alone..when he felt a tap on his shoulder..turning he saw Castro ..grinning beside him..no tank! Fidel had a knife which he gathered a few sea urchins with..which they later had for lunch..with some lime juice ..
Crazy billionaires eh!

That was in Sacha Trudeau's appreciation of Castro, wasn't it btc?

He's no billionare and maestro (and Forbes Magazine) know it. He could have had a lot of money if he'd wanted - his first wife was from a wealthy landowning family. When Castro was is jail he expected her to manage without help from her parents - she knuckled under and Castro divorced her on the spot. Some opportunist.

Maestro, stick to dissing the ALR, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Castro - or socialism. I'm not sure you know much about the ALR either, for that matter.

Frank... Frank.... Frank...

Who's the hypocrite...???

G West, simply made a comment to my comment and I simply rebutted it.

Otherwise....Life is good....and on a far more important BC note re: imported labour..... the BC Lions smoked the Alouettes yesterday...YESSSSS !!!!...and I hope they get Casey Printers back and trade Dickenson.

Funny how some trivial passing comment about Castro gets all the attention, much like one's Grade 12 English Teacher would look for punctuation errors and dangling participles...and ignore the main context.

Bill Gates Forbes rating as #1 is based on TOTAL capitalization...it would be far lower if he owned less shares..... or they dropped in value.

Forbes' point would be who currently has greater control of their destiny....all things being considered. Actually Forbes' argument is very clever. Gates fortune would be far more "on paper" than Castros' far more " real assets ".

Of course Castro would deny he's a billionaire...it would be bad for business to say otherwise.

" Snert " (above) actually added to the original debate. Germany does have a lot of " guest workers " which Germany has imported in the past via need. Will they be part of the B.C. package...will they be brought over and then use the opportunity to apply for Canadian citizenship, which they may have not had otherwise ???

Those are intelligent " think outside the box " comments that add to the debate, not trivialize it.

G West:

Rent BC Place.... I'll be there...

Topic #1 ALR

Topic #2 Socialism

Topic #3 Whatever YOU choose...all I ask is give me 5 seconds warning.

P.S. Call me when its booked

Yawwwwnnnn ....

Ciao

You rent BC Place. It's going to be empty since no one would buy a ticket to hear us debate anything.

Castro has no money - the US has seen to that - Forbes hasn't got a clue...and Socialism is the government in the most successful and happiest countries in the world - in Scandinavia. The ALR is the best thing for agriculture in this province even though the current government is doing it's best (along with many municipalities) to ruin it. You can't get away with blaming a party that's been in power 13 years in the last 106 for this provinces problems no matter how you try.

No need for a debate. Save your rent money and go back to sleep. Game, set and match.
Cheers.

maestro...maestro...maestro....
I didn't call you a hypocrite. If I had wanted to attack you I would have. I didn't. Its just that the word "hypocrite" is tossed around on this board so f'n often I'm literally sick of reading it.

As for Printers, c'mon, the guy is a prima donna. I'm a green and white fan anyway.

Hey guy, you brought it up. Its not like you were begging to talk about something else like perhaps the article.

So he can't deny it therefore he is one based on a Forbes reporter's say-so. Okay... On that note Maui police say Campbell is a drunk, but we know better eh?

Anyhoo, moving on, Castro and Gates aren't bidding on ferry contracts. But if they were I would assume they'd get them since they live in foreign lands? Hmmm would the Campbell supporters cheer if Castro's Cubans got a ferry contract instead of BC shipbuilders who happen to belong to a union? Now there is food for thought n'est pas?

if you were to read the first entry here on this topic, you would see that i said essentially what you guys have been repeating now for days.
get a life!

Frank ....Frank.... Frank:

I wuz hopin you could give me and G West some stock market tips...

Sorry, Casey Printers oozes potential...maybe a bit of an impetuous young lad , possible borderline prima donna....etc. etc. that all can be corrected, sit the lad down and explain the real world and the big picture , there is hope....unlike G West.

Dickenson will break a leg next time center Angus Reid breaks wind. Wally was stooopid not to put the League MVP in the Grey Cup that year...Green and white fan....is that Saskatchewan or NY Jets ????

Which team does Castro root for...my guess is Saskatchewan, due to the Tommy Douglas factor...though I voted for Tommy Douglas as Top Canadian( are you choking on your tofu and organic bottled water after reading that G West ??? )

G West: While you read the stock market quotes in your Point Grey mansion....rent the FOG OF WAR video...fascinating view/opinion of U.S. foreign policy by an individual who as there at the time in the early to late 1960's and intimately involved in the decision making process. It talks a lot about Cuba.

Why do people almost always equate Socialism with the Scandinavian model ???

It's like the # of lawyers per capita in Japan versus the # of lawyers per capita in the US. Japan has far less lawyers per capita but its due to a major cultural differences.
-------------------------------

G West :
Game - set - match....??? I am here at BC Place, its' SRO....got all the cheerleaders phone #s handed to me ....all I see is your tired cliche - ridden Che Guevarra type " eat the rich....we'll go after the middle - class for dessert " rants,...that tennis ball of yours (which by the way is so faulty that it veers way over to the left ) is getting so thin I hope a mosquito doesn't land on it before my overhand smash for match point.(Again...yawwnnnn)

I loved your rant on the Tofino water crisis. Very (de)-constructive.

You must be playing socialist solitaire...I'll let you win that by default...

So what ever happened to the start of this line of thoughts about Canadian Iron workers and a bridge job?
Most of the rhetoric is way off course. The union workers are getting shafted as are the companies that hire union workers, here in BC. If a worker gets a good wage about 51 percent ends up back in the governments pockets. Pay cheap labour and guess what, the cash for things goes way down. But if the mind set of the government is to make it difficult for folks to unionize and who cares what it costs, well that's the sort of government we ended up electing. Mind you Gordo told the HEU he wasn't about to tear up contracts. Guess what? Gordo tore up contracts. I wouldn't trust him and his gang with your three dollar watch. And now because of the guys running the Olympic mess we are out of pocket a lot more. When the T/C starts telling us someone should be up front with costs, and if anyone believes they won't be back for more etc etc, I get concerned especailly if the government income keeps going down by hiring at substandard rates

B]Maestro:[/B]

3 billion is chump change to my former biz partner (according to you today - most likely) Bill Gates. Garth is spot on about Castro and his "wealth." Castro walks the walk.

You on the other hand can barely talk the talk - btw, do you even understand what you are saying? Not that I can detect any reason to care. I'm starting to feel guilty about even talking to you, it kinda seems like poking some poor deranged animal trapped in a cage.

yes G.
It was Sachas tribute to Fidel..no he`s not a billionaire..I thought that Forbes thing had been long buried.. even the right wing press couldn`t run with that one..I guess some deranged animal dragged it up as useful in his reactionary
rants..in a masterly way of course.
So who is this maestro..and he/she be maestro of? What an insult to true maestros.. commie artists like Fellinni, ( People called him maestro..) Bertolucci, Rivera and Kahlo..and on and on

I`ll post Alexandres tribute

by Alexandre Trudeau

I grew up knowing that Fidel Castro had a special place among my family’s friends. We had a picture of him at home: a great big man with a beard who wore military fatigues and held my baby brother Michel in his arms. When he met my little brother in 1976, he even gave him a nickname that would stick with him his whole life: “Micha-Miche.”

A few years later, when Michel was around 8 years old, I remember him complaining to my mother that my older brother and I both had more friends than he did. My mother told him that, unlike us, he had the greatest friend of all: he had Fidel.

For many years, Cuba remained Michel’s exclusive realm; whenever someone would accompany my father there, it would naturally be Michel. It wasn’t until after both my father’s and brother’s deaths that I got a chance to visit Fidel and his country, Cuba.

Fidel may have been at first a political contact of my father’s but their relationship was much more than that. It was extra-political.

Indeed, like my father, in private, Fidel is not a politician. He is more in the vein of a great adventurer or a great scientific mind. Fidel doesn’t really do politics. He is a revolutionary.

He lives to learn and to put his knowledge in the service of the revolution. For Fidel, revolution is really a work of reason. In his view, revolution, when rigorously adopted, cannot fail to lead humanity towards ever greater justice, towards an ever more perfect social order.

Fidel is also the most curious man that I have ever met. He wants to know all there is to be known. He is famous for not sleeping, instead spending the night studying and learning.

He also knows what he doesn’t know, and when he meets you he immediately seeks to identify what he might learn from you. Once he has ascertained an area of expertise that might be of interest, he begins with his questions. One after the other. He synthesizes information quickly and gets back to you with ever deeper and more complex questions, getting more and more excited as he illuminates, through his Socratic interrogation, new parcels of knowledge and understanding he might add to his own mental library.

His intellect is one of the most broad and complete that can be found. He is an expert on genetics, on automobile combustion engines, on stock markets. On everything.

Combined with a Herculean physique and extraordinary personal courage, this monumental intellect makes Fidel the giant that he is.

He is something of a superman. My father once told us how he had expressed to Fidel his desire to do some diving in Cuba. Fidel took him to the most enchanting spot on the island and set him up with equipment and a tank. He stood back as my father geared up and began to dive alone.

When my father had reached a depth of around 60 feet, he realized that Fidel was down there with him, that he had descended without a tank and that there he was with a knife in hand prying sea urchins off the ocean floor, grinning.

Back on the surface, they feasted on the raw sea urchins, seasoned with lime juice.

Fidel turns 80 years old today. A couple of weeks ago, he shocked the world by turning power over to his brother Raul after holding it without interruption since the 1959 revolution. In newspapers across the world, pundits solemnly declared that even giants are mortal and that no revolution is eternal. Historians even began to prepare the space that will be granted Fidel in history books.

Fidel may seem an anachronism: a visionary statesman in a world where his kind have long since been replaced by mere managers, a 20th-century icon still present in the 21st century.

There is also wild speculation about what fate awaits Cuba after Castro. It is important to note, however, that while the whole world works itself up about the matter, Cubans themselves play it cool. Some of my shrewder Cuban friends even say that this temporary withdrawal from power is another one of Castro’s clever strategies; that it is something of a test and that he will soon be back at the helm. They say that, on one hand, Castro is allowing the Cuban people, and more specifically the Cuban state apparatus, to become accustomed to the leadership of his brother Raul. On the other hand, Castro is carefully watching for hints as to how the world — and, more importantly, the United States — will react to his final departure.

Cubans remain very proud of Castro, even those who don’t share his vision. They know that, among the world’s many peoples, they have the most audacious and brilliant of leaders. They respect his intellectual machismo and rigour.

But Castro’s leadership can be something of a burden, too. They do occasionally complain, often as an adolescent might complain about a too strict and demanding father. The Jefe (chief) sees all and knows all, they might say. In particular, young Cubans have told me that an outsider cannot ever really imagine what it is like to live in such a hermetic society, where everyone has an assigned spot and is watched and judged carefully. You can never really learn on your own, they might say. The Jefe always knows what is best for you. It can be suffocating, they say.

I met a young man in the small provincial town of Remedios who worked there as a cigar roller. We shared a great love for the works of Dostoyevsky. When I expressed to him my excitement at meeting a fellow aficionado of Russian literature, he flatly told me: “Yes, Fidel has taught me to read and to think, but look what work he sets me out to do with this education: I roll cigars!”

Cuba under Castro is a remarkably literate and healthy country, but it is undeniably poor. Historians will note, however, that never in modern times has a small, peaceful country been more subjected to unfair and malicious treatment by a superpower than Cuba has by the United States.

From the very start, the United States never gave Castro’s Cuba a choice. Either Castro had to submit himself and his people to America’s will or he had to hold his ground against them.

Which is what he did, in the process drawing the Cuban people into this taxing dialectic that continues to this day. Cubans pay the price and may occasionally complain of their fate, but they rarely blame Castro. The United States never fails to make the Cuban people well aware of its spite for this small neighbouring country that dares to be independent.

With the possible exception of Nelson Mandela, already well into retirement, Fidel is the last of the global patriarchs. Reason, revolution and virtue are becoming more and more distant and abstract concepts. We will perhaps never see another patriarch.

We thus have to conceive of the departure of the last patriarch in psychoanalytical terms. The death of the father doesn’t signal our liberation from him — quite the contrary. The death of a father so grand and present as Castro will, rather, immortalize him in the minds of his children.

It is true that Cubans may eventually cast away the communist orthodoxy of the revolution. They will become tempted by American capital and values as soon as the embargo against them is lifted, something that will surely follow in the not so distant future. They will have new opportunities for individual fulfilment and downfall. Without a doubt, Cuba without Castro will not remain unchanged.

But Cubans will continue to be subjected to Castro’s influence. Whether they like it or not, they will continue to be called out by his voice, by his questions, by his inescapable rationality, which, whether they heed its call or not, demands they defend the integrity of Cuba and urges them to seek justice and excellence in all things.

For a generation to come, they will be haunted by the vision of a society that never existed and probably never will exist, but which their once-leader, the most brilliant and obsessed of all, never stopped believing could exist and should exist.

Cubans will always feel privileged that they, and they alone, had Fidel.

I'm old enough to remember, that during and just after the overthrow of Batista, even the US Government and American media considered Fidel a liberator and definitely wearing a white hat. But his concern for the "common" good forced him to choose against the greed and lack of compassion of the so-called free enterprise system, as it is imposed on as much of the world as possible by the United States of Greed!

Thanks for posting that, cat guy, I hadn't read that touching portrait of this truly great man who has stood steadfast against America's druthers!

The US tries to demonize anyone that doesn't buy into their trip. With the Bu$h Crime Family at the helm, that group is rapidly becoming the entire rest of the world except for Israel and maybe the UK, but the UK are getting less confident of which side of their bread to butter - by the day, and for good reason.

Now if we can just get rid of Harpo and climb out of the elephant's bed ourselves! The Harp can just go back to Alberta and not wash his lips if he wants to savor the scent of a preznit.

kew...touching portrait huh..thats how I saw it too..touching..

Vive Fidel

Hey Comrade Rkewen:

I have been on this blog for about a month. Omit the 2 - 3 weeks I was out of town , travelling in the real BC world...

Commented on about 10 topics since then.

First attempt ever at any such forum.

Had allusions/illusions/delusion (my fault???)intelligent debate would ensue.

Actually....I think I will be more of a reader and less a writer in the near future...

Good debate involves even throwing forward views that you, the submitter may or may not even personally like.

Fiat Lux is a cool dude...I don't necessarily agree with many of his views,..... but I at least see where he us coming from given his real life experiences. I'd have a beer with him anytime. Neocon is a fave term.

On the other hand , at the other extreme ,....dudes like G West , I thought, were coming to some common ground...but really disappoint me when he does the ol' kneejerk rant that I am this and that...rags on IAMC etc. like they are the anti-Christ.

I basically help poor ol' G West with on-line crib notes to assist him...He claims I know f'n all about some issues that I have actually researched for 3 years with a 3-4 ft. pile of GOV'T documents(because I want facts not shallow propoganda) ...what an f'n stuuuuuuuupid comment,...No sense talkin to G West types ...their mind is beyond made up....the microchip in their head must need replacement.

I was enjoying what I THOUGHT was your comedy routine about Ken Lay in Hell( by the way I agreed with your views on his types ). Sorry...R Kewen looks like you have no sense of humour either....

It' s really unfortunate to resort to stereotypes so lets call it " profiling"...It seems to be my experience that the left - of - center is the least tolerant, most demonizing, most stereotyping and more often gets away with murder...the facts are irrelevant, parrot the party line....and yet claim victory when others in the same democracy see they are talking to a brick wall,....and move on.

Our democratic system allows you the right for free speech....but not to yell fire....and the odd time your apparent buddies are actually in power by default, they give all the indication they would make the democratic system quasi -illegal, or come close...then get their asses kicked out...and still wonder why for years after.

I see more of a culture of entitlement from the Left side of the political spectrum than any other...which is why the "H" word ...aka "hypocrite" is used a lot by me.

The " when did you stop beating your ____"??? type of debate comments really get tiring....that is about the depth of the bogus debates I continually see attempted.

Bob the pussyCat....Maestro advises...clean out the over-flowing litter box between the ears...you simply add more evidence to my debate.

Try to think outside your ever- shrinking boxes...

maestro, maestro, maestro...

We've heard it all before - spun out by wordsmiths a lot more golden that you - Fog of War saw it years ago - about the same time I read McNamara's book (he should be in jail with Kissinger warming up the bunk for Bush). That's old hat, man you need to get up on some new jargon

I drove by BC Place, it was empty - and I wasn't surprised.

I'm not trying to attack you maestro, I'm trying to figure out what in the hell you are trying to talk about. It generally certainly isn't say... the article the discussion is below, or say... the actual ideas that the commenter you are calling say... Bill Gates actually tried to articulate. I have no problem with people whose views differ from mine.

I do have a problem though with people who just wander around in a totally inexplicable haze blowing smoke in every direction. They are just a waste of time and space - except when they are good for a laugh. Hey, by the way, IAMClueless is lots funnier than you!

Pardon me maestro, I just had an inspiration:

Maestro is an experimental proto-type of a contrarian spider-robot program that the Tyee is testing. The idea being to foster more discussion, thus more proven traffic, thus more advertising revenue etc. Jeepers, pretty capitalistic, eh?

The thing is I get the idea that you disagree with me, but that's all I can figure out. What you think or where you stand is like a combination quaqmire/shifting sand dunes kinda place.

Maestro: i. effing e.

Once more, I will try to explain what I mean without any big words or cynicism, in the diminishing hope that you might, just might finally understand what myself and some others have been saying, that you prefer to interpret as personal attacks.

This (between you and I) all began yesterday when I basically asked you how the fact that you worked as a member of three differents unions (but apparently not long enough in any to get "vested") was any worse, much less as bad as, say someone who spent 30 years working for Enron and walked away not only "NO PENSION" but having lost their life savings to boot, because Kenny Boy and his cronies convinced him to invest in the "Enron family."

I don't know if you ever understood the question, but I noticed that you never even tried to answer it, AND THAT IS THE PROBLEM with the "maestro effect" or software.

Bob the cat, can you imagine how insignificant, petty and small the man who pretends to be the Preznit of the US would feel if he ever had the opportunity to share the same room with Fidel, and only the two of them there?

maestro, if you want to talk to people without arguing you need to go to ProudToBeCanadian.ca or google Ezra Levant's forum. There you will find kindred spirits and no arguments since they don't allow people that disagree with the guys that run the sites.

As for your description of the left, you're repeating an old stereotype. When it comes to politics, people argue, just the nature of the beast.

This is going to seem way way off subject rkewen, but just wanted to post this for bob the cat:
Today we feature the author's (Doug Coupland's) final post, a meditation on literary wasp nests and advice on how to chew a book (rinse often).

I kid you not.

Now back to underpaid foreign workers and computer programs mimicking ersatz humans.
Cheers.

G West:

Too bad....we missed you:

Re Fog Of War

"Old news" is relative.....the events happened 40-50 years ago...McNamara commented on it ..he could have done it the day after....or decades later like he did...

Love him or hate him.....a fascinating individual.....wise people reflect on things as time wears on...better cognitive reflection.

It was simply food for thought....we can all make up our own minds. I saw it on the movie rack and eventually rented it....maybe you are more hip than me. Remember why he called it the Fog of War. Also remember the U.S. Democrats, especially LBJ were in power during most of this.

Didn't U.S. Republican Nixon basically say "F" it , lets get the hell out of 'Nam ??? and actually did ???

Tip to avoid jury duty at his or Bush's or Kissingers' or_________ trial....have a rope with a noose on the end during jury selection....apparently works every time.

maestro
I'm with Frank on this; lots of points of view and maybe we do come from different places. If you want to understand where I come from, George Kennan is a better place to start than Robert McNamara. Moreover, don't read just what he wrote at the beginning of the Cold War.

Anyway, not much to choose in US-style corporate capitalist system between donkeys and elephants - they're all turkeys in my view. Check out how often members of the House and the Senate give up their seats (in an election) if you want to learn about rotten boroughs. And take some time to study the connections between military and industrial lobbyists and the rest of the system - including the major media while you're at it. And don’t forget the churches!

Have a good day, I'm off to meet with a client. Some of us socialists even work on Sunday.

Rkewen:

(Have I lost you yet??....Answer YES or NO)

If you answer NO ,continue on SVP
If you answer YES start again, SVP.

RE your Big Companies ,pension funds...etc. and scams involving them .

Now.....this is between you and me....Don't let anyone else read this....( promise me now ...!!!!)

(ALSO: Feel free let me know if I am losing you yet....)

Yeah...I was a "high roller" ....used to play the stock market...BCRIC....plus one other company...last try mid - 1980's . (Still with me ???)

Got burned big time....lost about $1000 combined...Ahhhhhhhhhh!!!!...where is the Lions Gate Bridge when you need it....???? (You Still there ??? )

Best lessons learned re when they are small and not painful...worth a million dollars.(You OK .....let me know if I am losing you yet).

Then is when I learned about the real way it all works...ie the VSE. The old term " Moose Pasture"comes to mind (Pre Bre- X ). Promotion...insiders buy wholesale ,...."pump and dump".

Ex schoolmate , and now an LLB , worked for the BC VSE regulatory body.....lots of good free advice and insight... Says the worst thing they see is someone who gets lucky the first time....think they are geniuses. Ultimately doomed .

Family friend went bankrupt recently....playing this game I chose not to re-enter...

The brokers and the Ken Lays etc can lease a time-share condo in hell....but the fact remains peoples very own blind faith and larceny and greed gets the better of them...Like Vegas....you only hear about the winners...not the 99% who lose. This also applies to anything in life...

Read the book " Liars' Poker" ...an ex- MBA's insider view of what went on...the rules haven't changed....

If we are on a personal critique sword fight ...you sound like some person who got burned big time....though I won't be so bold as to 100% assume that you did.

Me???? my .00000756 degree burns were worth millions to me, figuratively speaking......but I don't go praying those involved go to hell. Its the same old story ....just different players...and won't be the last time these types of things happens.

Even the experts and regulatory bodies either get fooled or have little power to stop them. Bre-X was an embarassment to the human species...a fiscal Jonestown blind belief. My own gut feel was it was "tempting"via the hype.... but it just didn't seem right...nor make sense, based on past lessons learned.

Remember the fable about the scorpion given ride across the river???...something about the nature of the beast.

There was nothing to stop people from performing their own due diligence...and making sure all the proper checks and balances are there...often they simply choose not to. Prevention versus Cure....

P.S. If you are STILL with me...remember not to let anyone else read this...OK ????....TIP: Gordo is allowing me to sell shares to the Lions Gate Bridge...want some ???

rkewen
Can`t get my head around preznit Dub and Fidel alone in the same room..
Did you see Oliver Stones documentary Commandante?
One funny scene...they were driving to tour a medical school..Fidel and his driver ( a little wizened revolution era dude..looked 90 years old) in the front..Stone and his cameraman in the back.
Suddenly Stone says " Is this yours?"
Castro turns around and Stone is holding a gun (in a holster)..Castro and the driver exchange an "oops" look ( he`s got the drop on us). Stone passes the revolver to Castro and asks if he still knows how to use it. Castro says he a little rusty but could probably handle it if he had to.
Gotta check out Couplands latest.

Rkewen:

Me,....Don "Maestro" Corleone am going to make you, Rkewen, an offer you can't refuse....

Why don't you go over what I have said.....and the conclusions about me you have made...and attempt a profile where I stand on the Golden Ears Bridge worker issue.

Shouldn't be difficult, should it...???

PS Frank and G West etc, are invited too!!!

I will respond later.

RE: Castro---- the other side :

Apparently Fidel Castro was also a very talented athlete. He had very good baseball skills and was drafted by a major league baseball team....apparently the original Washington franchise.

QUESTION: If he had instead chosen this " baseball" career path versus politics would it had altered World history ???

Anyone wish to comment???

True Answer: later on.

G West:

Uber Republican ex US WW II General 1950's US President Eisenhower said that decades ago ....warning all about the military - industrial complex...even I know that.

Do you actually think that I personally beleive the non Left Wing side are all going to heaven???

We,the humble public..on see the tip of the iceberg of what goes on....one can conspiracy theorize ad - infinitum.

That scientist guy(forget his name..Russell Crowe played him in a movie )....that ratted out the cigarette industry was in my town a few years back....I have and treasure his autograph and I personally thanked him for having the balls to finally admit and testify the obvious.

Unforunately cigarettes still exist....which adds to my obvious cynicism about Gov't....it appears that they negotiated and added a tax to pay for future legal liabilities, ignoring the medical costs, or 2nd hand smoke...the cigarette addict pays more....and so will the rest of us....Gov't is more addicted to the revenue...

After the scientist guys lecture at the High School...the students exited....many still lighting up their cigarettes...youth eh??? ....but also symbolic of much of the public in general...either ignore the facts or Im all right Jack...

maestro
You're not even in the same church, let alone the right pew.

That's 'George Kennan'. Keep trying dude. You're right about the iceberg.

Shouldn't be difficult, should it...???

Actually it is. Even people I know well will often surprise me when they have a different take on an issue that I do.

As a what the hell, I'll stereotype you and say you'd prefer the jobs went to BC'ers but the company that got the contract should determine who works for it and not gov't.

M...aren`t you confusing two R. Crowe characters...the nicotine industry whistleblower and the beautiful mind paranoid nobel prizewinning scientist guy?

Anyone wish to comment???

True Answer: later on.

I'll say no but that it would have altered Cuba's history.

Frank, btc, anyone else who's interested: lots of good stuff in today's New York Times Magazine - most everything is available on line - including an interview with Gloria Steinem and this little editorial about one of our erstwhile "allies" in Pakistan:

Editorial
The Wrong Battle in Pakistan

There are dangerous international terrorists hiding out in the mountain caves of Pakistan. But 79-year-old Nawab Akbar Khan Bugti, the Baluch tribal leader, politician and rebel, was not one of them.

Now Mr. Bugti is dead and the impoverished but energy-rich province of Baluchistan is in an uproar after an ill-explained military operation last month. After a week of contradictory government statements, the only things now clear are that Mr. Bugti’s body was buried in the rubble of his blown-up mountain hideout, and that antigovernment fury in the restive province is at a new pitch of intensity.

The last thing Pakistan needs is an upsurge in violence and repression in Baluchistan. That would only be a distraction from far more important challenges, like developing a chronically underachieving economy; restoring a ravished democracy; and placing a dangerous nuclear weapons establishment, including exports of bomb-related technology, under firm and reliable civilian control.

And there are far more crucial things that Pakistan’s military could be doing than hunting down Mr. Bugti and his followers. For example, it could finally seal its scandalously porous border with Afghanistan, making it much harder for the Taliban to infiltrate into that country the fighters killing American, NATO and Afghan soldiers. It could permanently shut down the Pakistan-based Kashmiri terrorist groups that have survived past crackdowns by reopening under new names, with little interference from Pakistani authorities. Not least, it could make a more serious effort to find and arrest Osama bin Laden, widely believed to have spent much of the past four and a half years on Pakistani soil.

Any of these efforts would stir up opposition in one part or another of the Pakistani military, the only constituency that Pakistan’s president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, ever really cares about. So long as elections are brazenly rigged, opposition parties are banned and Washington’s uncritical support remains guaranteed, General Musharraf has little incentive to take up any of these vital challenges.

When General Musharraf comes to the United States, he loves to be lauded as a leader in the war on terrorism. Back home, his government too often acts like a garden-variety military dictatorship.

score revised - now 4 dead - Canadians - in the 'Islamic Republic of Afghanistan' today.

This doesn't belong here, but where else to post it:

From John H. Hinderaker on the Powerline Blog:

emphasis mine.

Do you think that Orwellian phrase is Freudian or not? These guys are unbelievable...and this turkey is the most powerful man on earth!!!

As Garth would say,
maestro, maestro, maestro, maestro:

You still dance off to some other topic some other riff. Does your brain(?) just kinda do it's own thing and you just try to type whatever it happens to be doing at the time.

You still haven't addressed the original issue you seemed to raise. You acted as if in spite of all the good work, dues payin' etc. with three (3) different unions, they had left you with nothin', the implication being that to give you your due would cut into the union boss' cigar budget.

This is what I mean:

Maestro:

.

then I responded:

Then you respond by accusing me of being either Bill Gates or Jimmy Pattison (I'd rather be Bill, and not cause he has more money, I'd prolly give even more away than him, if that is possible), and start telling me about Monty Python and the types of people you have known in your life. Can you see the disconnect here?

But now you sound like a lucky investor type that was fortunate enough to learn not to buy that stuff they be selling that is "too good to be true," without losing your shorts. The point is you are a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, shrouded by an enigma and I'm just about to pass my turn on "What's My Line" to somebody else. You're probably just a frustrated lawyer wannabe, that loves to argue from any side of a question, and that's fine. Logic and relevance are helpful however, even if you're not arguing from the heart!

When people in this province finally wake up and realize how screwed they are thanks to gordo and harpo's new era, plantation economy (let's call it millionaires and wall-mart workers)it's going to be too late.
Just learn to bow to your reform party voting, psuedo-fuedal lord and mazzer as he speeds by new in his hummer thru the gates of his "secure" community that you and manuel (as in hard "manuel" labor)just finished building for 10 bucks an hour.
Oh and don't even think about actually living in the province that you built. Silly goose!

Rkewen

I've read it and re - read it....

I have distilled , filtered and centrifuged the point...

Answer the challenge ...what do you think my view is on the issue OF WHO WILL BUILD THE GOLDEN EARS BRIDGE.......at least have the balls Frank had....he gave it a try.

I know Elvis is alive and well ,....now I am starting to think Pierre Trudeau is alive and well in the condo next to him...

Quit the psycho babble.

Riddle/mystery/enigma....heard that one too many times...not very original

I rebutted your "people got screwed by the stock market"...if my anecdotes bore you....that's unfortunate....I find that there is no learning substitute like experience. Maybe someone ELSE reads this stuff and learns something....I sure as hell hope we TYEE commnetators are also not the only audience.

Rest assured I will respond.

PS I will forewarn you,... I will use some anecdotes...

Is that a problem???

G West:

To keep the high standarda and integrity of the TYEE, sans subjective editorial comments.

RE: Your the same church,... right pew.....and George Kennan.

I will extrapolate that you are implying my Military Industrial Complex (M.I.C.) quote was not attributed to Eisenhower.

If that is the case...you are WRONGO...

Do a search....type in M.I.C. ....nuthin but Eisenhower.

Nothing about Kennan comes up....

Eisenhower was widely known to have said it...which gave it far more impact...when one would think he would be the last person to make such a comment.

TO: Bob the pussyCat.

Remember....like ol' Bill Clinton..." smoke...but don't inhale "...unless you are interviewing an intern.

FYI : Dr. Jeffrey Wigand is the person's name who was the cigarette comapny whistleblower

Saw both Movies starring Russell Crowe...enjoyed both.

However how can you confuse the characters ????...

2 scientists/PhD.s ..yes......but almost total opposites.

I don't get your point...unless you are trying to be funny...but if that's the case, I'll wait till the scalper drops the ticket price.

maestro
Not at all. The MIC quote rightly goes to Ike. My point is that your quest for enlightenment should start with kennan and an article he wrote under another name in a certain journal.

If you don't know about that article, understand it and then learn what Kennan said about the same article years later in his memoirs, you won't understand the last half of the 20th century.

Elementary my dear watson.
The MIC is just icing on the cake and actually started long before Ike made any note of it. You can look it up.

Check the journals catalogue of any half-decent library.

Jesterjogger:

QUESTION:
What's the source of the problem.....what perpetuates the problem....and what is the solution to the problem you claim exists ???

Sorry if I bore you with anecdotes....

When mining collapsed, specifically NorthEast coal (Evil Socred 1980's project ) a friend of mine went up to Tumbler Ridge about 3-4 years ago and picked up 2 houses for about $50,000. He fixed them up, and sold them a couple of years ago.

That's too bad.

Mining is booming...commodity prices are at record levels...and if he had kept these houses I recall they would now be worth (recent newscast)$170,000 plus each .

I don't recall anyone up there being paid $10/hr.

ALSO: Tired of hearing about the worker abuse in Alberta....teenagers being paid scab wages of $35 + per hour to work in the oil patch.

My Albertan brother-in- law sees the Alberta environment (yes they actually have one in Alberta )clearcut and drilled....and wonders where are the environmentalists are...( I tell him its too cold...and trees are not big enough...enviros (and media) have their comfort zone like everyone else....damn I have to use the "H" word again "hypocrisy...???)

I'm not saying you are not making a valid point...simply offer a solution...

Maybe "Manuel" or " Maria " etc. coming to a BC home near you are simply a symptom of something else...

My own family played very similar Manuel and Maria roles , much like any NON First Nations immigrants...and ultimately did quite well after the early intitiation.

Mousetroll..didn`t realize the whistleblower was a science guy(Dr. Wigand)..thought he was an executive..my confusion..points to you.
saw both movies..The cigarette one was ok the Beautiful Mind was a tad pretentious...Ed Harris was great as usual.
now whats this about a golden eared bridge? Ahh yes Balls...Big Balls.. lets build a bridge with big balls?
Do we really have to read back through your posts ? I mean the same old crap has been posted here for a long time there maestro.
Another crazy here to enlighten the lefties.

Ya maestro, no offence, hate to tar you with past crimes but I've been here for years and argued with innumerable people and if you can tell me something I haven't heard before great but let's hear it, don't be so coy.

As for the H word again, look, the Right says we don't need environmentalists in BC because they don't do any good, the Right would care for the environment just as well if someone wasn't yelling at them. Well, based on your post it appears they're hypocrites because Alberta's environment is not doing well without environmentalists there to complain.

Also, have you seen the numbers of poor and homeless in Alberta? Unskilled kids aren't getting $35 an hour. $15 for working in a Subway in Fort McMurray maybe.

As for Russel Crowe, I'm more a fan of his work in Gladiator and especially Master and Commander. Aubrey/Maturin, best novels since Dost.

Green and White = the Riders.

And Green and White did very nicely today too; thank you very much!

Bob The sCat

Apparently " A Beautiful Mind " you don't have...

Dr. Wigand was paid the bucks for his PhD expertise ...to lie like a rug...dare I say twist the facts??? ...Maybe the cigarette company is hiring...why not go apply ???

P.S. Why worry about a little detail like that....its irrelevant to the plot...right ???

Hey Frank:

Really apologize to leave you hanging...

I was waiting for Rkewen to pick up the " Profile the Maestro" challenge......I think his microchip crashed...hopefully he will re-boot soon.

I'll answer it in the morning....(ie the Castro theory and the Maestro as Premier building a Golden Eared Bridge with Bob the sCats Balls. Meoooooouch !!!

Profile: RE Tomorrow ...You hate the Edmonton Eskimos at least slightly more than the Stamps...right ??? T.O versus Hamilton...Ugghhh!!!

Congrats on the 'Riders win today ...Winnipeg looked like a High School team...even with Glen and Stegall back.

So Dr. Wigand took the bucks? To lie?
And even YOU dare to say "twist the facts".

So from where came his epiphany? The mortgage was paid off? Musta remembered his mom tellin` him about not tellin` lies huh maestro.

Yes troller its irrelevant when you already know the trite and tired, wornout plot.. some sneaky egoist trying to bait someone..trying to bring someone down.

I think the Riders are going to win the cup..the Shivers thing will keep `em motivated big time even through the dog days. The Rider fans deserve it..they`re true fans..they stick with `em through the rough times..not like the bandwagon jumpers elsewhere..especially Vancouver.
Got the same feeling with a pretty mediocre Leos team the night Lui retired.
It being his last season motivated `em..and they rode it all the way despite the lack of fan support.

Hey Frank:

Re environment:

It was my brother -in -laws comment...he's the one that can tell me he ain't got people blockadng roads...chaining themselves to trees less than 6 inches in diameter,.....or oil rigs over the permafrost...He gets the BC News...he notices the apples and oranges differences in environmental activism.

Jesterjogger is stating the wealth gap they perceive ...the facts are that the economy is booming...a lot of it is Construction, and also the traditional all important BC resource sector. The wealth gap is less now , when the boom busts...the wealth gap will get bigger.

Two neighbouring economies...environmentalism seems to lay relatively low now in both BC and Alberta...what about when things go flat???...my guess is that it will pick up here...yet in Alberta squat...

Environmentalism, objectively speaking...is a major force... in some resource provinces( like B.C. ) ...but not all of them. It plays a major factor into well paying resource jobs...Jesterjogger will see this in their wealth gap concerns. Blame Gordo??

It won't be a factor in Alberta.

Otherwise...Sorry, but Alberta family members mentioning concerns that their high school grads would rather earn the oil patch big $$$$'s than go to post secondary...

Hey Bobcat:

On the witness stand :

Can't recall the reason for Wigand's epiphany.....movie is on the 7 day rental rack....probably time to rent it again. Whether he had a gun to his head or the old conscience kicked in...it happened regardless .

As a side bar..what I recall was the CBS show 60 minutes was about to break the story...then had the rug pulled. Then it broke that the CBS head honcho was involved in the censorship..., something about a pending major takeover by integrated / overlapping business interests with CBS's later sale.

We can all tell war stories about the inspiration about each of our own personal epiphanies on various issues.

Re RIDERS

Finally Common ground....
yeah...nothing at all against Troy Westwood's " banjo-pickin " Riders...I was glad to see them win it all in a great Grey Cup game in the late 80's with Kent Austin...perhaps an underdog dark- horse this year we can all relate to and cheer for...after the Lions of course.

Can't say I can recall such a bizarre year with the yo-yo ing of teams calibre of play.

Shivers will land somewhere...Hamilton ???

NFL starts Thursday.

You know there is a lot of work out there right now. Get working. The reward will come.
We have to change to the modern economy.
At least in the BC area and even more specifically in the area that I live, the opportunities abound, and nobody has time to entertain a group of workers with their own agenda.
Sorry, but pack your bags and go back to 90's era British Columbia.
We should all be looking for ways to maximize the booty we get from this thriving economy.
" Celebration time, Come'on. "
Lets all help each other thrive right now.

Careful IAMC

Good to hear from you....

However....Now we BOTH will have to fight the shit flung in our direction.

Have a good one.

maestro, maestro, you are sooo annoying.
it is stunning to watch you so dim wittedly putting everyone, G West, Roberto the feline, frank, jester and myself in our retarded places with your rapier wit and steel trap mind.

As usual you never respond to the issue at hand, I can't really accurately evaluate your confused mutterings with the others, but everything you say to me never has any relation to anything I said or that you said before. If you are not the contrarian spider-robot-crawler program I suggested, then you must be a random keyboard activator.

Just one simple, really, really simple example and then I will give up on you as a hopeless case. You say to me:

Not only did I never say "people got screwed by the stock market"...but even repeated in simple terms again today that people got more screwed by criminals such as the late Kenny Boy Lay - even worse than you got screwed by them thar cigar chomping union bosses

It isn't that your anecdotes bore me, they just bear no relevance to what you or I are actually discussing. Oh by the way, I spent some time in Mexico once, I went skin diving everyday with a local for Abalone and Pacific Lobsters. See what I mean - oh the Mexican guy was poor, but he and his family ate well, lots of lobster and shellfish. Do you get it yet, probably not! You are on my scroll faster list now, unless I'm really bored. I see IAMClueless is back so I can expect some real humor instead of just disturbing evidence of disconnected ganglia.

rkewan
Only one small advantage to having maestro around, as I see it. He can keep Ron (IAMC) Erwin happy. I think they deserve each other.

Hey G, I figure if the guy with the baton ever actually like.....you know....actually....thought, he would wonder, in shock, what the hell was going on. Like the Swede who brought in the chain saw that made his work so difficult, only to be startled when the mechanic fired up the engine. "Wots dat noise?"

Maybe his head would explode!

How's it going so far? I don't even want to defile, or unpile or read his style, and I ain't in da Nile. I have no use for a random text generation program.

LOL - probably. At least with the engine off he wasn't cutting down that many trees.

btw rkewan, did you ever get any more info on the stayed charges (I'm guessing they've been stayed) on that former Victoria police officer - relative of the Basi/Virk gang - who dropped out of sight in the late spring /early summer after 2 days of trial/hearing in Victoria?

I know BC Mary tried to chase it down and I sent a query to the Court Reporter of the Times Colonist -> to no response.

Have you heard anything further?
I wonder if it's being hushed until the main event because there's a connection between the two cases that would sour the big trial if the details came out now.

This is just for you Ron (IAMC) Erwin. A couple of days ago you were saying what a role model China was for industrial development and suggesting that Canada and BC should be following their example.

Just thought you'd like to read a few paras from a story that'll be in the papers tomorrow - I'm only going to post a bit, it is a long article but I'll put the link in at the end:
Rules Ignored, Toxic Sludge Sinks Chinese Village
By JIM YARDLEY

URAD QIANQI, China — Dark as soy sauce, perfumed with a chemical stench, the liquid waste from two paper mills overwhelmed the tiny village of Sugai. Villagers tried to construct a makeshift dike, but the toxic water swept it away. Fifty-seven homes sank into a black, polluted lake.

The April 10 industrial spill, described by five residents of the village in Inner Mongolia, was a small-scale environmental disaster in a country with too many of them. But Sugai should have been different. The two mills had already been sued in a major case, fined and ordered to upgrade their pollution equipment after a serious spill into the Yellow River in 2004.

The official response to that spill, praised by the state-run news media, seemed to showcase a new, tougher approach toward pollution — until the later spill at Sugai revealed that local officials had never carried out the cleanup orders. Now, the destruction of Sugai is a lesson in the difficulty of enforcing environmental rules in China.

“The smell made me want to vomit,” one villager said recently, as he showed the waist-high watermark on the remains of his home. There is no shortage of environmental laws and regulations in China, many of them passed in recent years by a central government trying to address one of the worst pollution problems in the world. But those problems persist, in part, because environmental protection is often subverted by local protectionism, corruption and regulatory inefficiency.

Even as many domestic and international environmental groups now credit China with beginning to take the environment seriously, pollution is actually worsening in some crucial categories. Emissions of sulfur dioxide, the building block of acid rain, rose by 27 percent between 2000 and 2005; government projections had called for a 20 percent reduction.

You can find the rest here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/04/world/asia/04pollution.html?hp&ex=1157428800&en=f5f01feaba4cf9a9&ei=5094&partner=homepage

G, I am even farther removed from the informational loop than you or Mary, up here in the Kootenays, and a fairly out of the way part of the Kootenays at that. I had been particularly disturbed by the secrecy and lack of progress with all that should have followed an event such as the infamous Raid. Around the time I started the House, some of us (as you well know) had been discussing the case here, starting on the board of a Tyee article that kinda tried to bring events up to date.

Around that time more information from the original warrants had been released to the public (Gordo's gang safely back in office and all) and all signs pointed to things finally moving forward. As we now know, things seem only to disappear even farther into some murky alternate dimension and at times it seems as if the whole thing might fade from the conciousness of all living beings. I applaud Mary for her dedicated digging these past few months and intend to reactivate the House if some real activity begins to occur.

I never planned to be much in the way of a reporter or researcher, being located here in the boonies as I am. I had hoped to be able to help organize and publish information from the media, info available (or should be) from OUR government and folks like yourself and Mary located much closer to the action than I. Of course I would add a bit of my own snarky opinions and/or analysis from time to time, just cause it saves on ammunition.

So I guess the question of the day is - is anything going to happen in September? or November? or (as the main trial is scheduled, unless it has mysteriously entered the void)in December? ad infinitum - amen!

I would be a rich man if I could get away with criminal activity with the ease of Gordo and his gang of creeps.

URAD QIANQI, is that Chinese for Salmo?

Good one! It's even worse, URAD QIANQI I mean.

I can't understand why information that should be public isn't; or why reporters who are supposed to be getting paid (are getting paid) to cover these stories don't - or won't. The deafening silence is extremely suspicious - like your Swede's inability to cut down trees with a power say he can't start...except we're all saying -- why the silence?

I guess somebody decided to take their baton and go home - or is wrapped up generating personal random text messages for each commenter since his last mass barrage that smartened us all up. Then again maybe his work here is done, he has enlightened the unwashed heathen hordes and is off to cleanse the minds of yet other infidels.

Speaking of cases and lawyers, Patrick Fitzgerald has a blog, and a couple folks I tend to trust insist it is THE Patrick Fitzgerald. Some folks are expecting something on that front soon, the White House and WaPo and NYT are all smearing Valerie and Joe again big time. Some folks think an indictment is in the works for Big Time hisself, and the administration is trying to get out ahead of it. A few high level indictments would certainly add some zest to the election season in the Snakes. There's even some who think the Rovester has been blabbing and co-operating his pudgy little ass off for two or three years now, hence the return engagements in front of the Grand Jury. Mind you there isn't enough paper in the world to properly list the crimes that Darth Cheney has committed against mankind - enough for a frog march and trip to Gitmo with a free orange jumpsuit is enough for me. I would pay for as many replacement hearts as needed to keep Cheney alive in a cell forever! Death is way too kind for that piece of sub human refuse.

Now wouldn't that be something....
I noticed a story in the Sunday NYTimes that claimed little Karl is not the wonder worker in Repub circles he once was - today they're suggesting the GOP will lose control of the house in November. A finesse from fitzgerald would be even more interesting.
Light at the end of the tunnel that isn't a train for once - priceless.

later - had no idea what time it was - g/night.

Rkewen:

Back on topic..

So...re: your trip to Mexico..... how were the Lobsters...catch any Mexican " crabs" ???.

Every seen the large squid those people eat.....grow to 5 ft in a year. Apparently these squid are voracious...and the biological goal is to max out in one year, and they also begin to cannabilize themselves....sounds like a lot of TYEE bloggers.

How did the T. O Blue Jays do the day you were there??? Any good future prospects you saw down there ???

Was it off season rates ??? Use Air Miles ??? How's the service on Aeroflot ?

Why didn't you spend the money in BC and help the local economy ???

How many generations was the local removed from Pancho Villa ???

See you had the golden opportunity to start a Revolution down there in Mexico after a couple of Coronas. This would piss off Bush and Cheney whose other less well - known agenda is to maintain the free flow of Corona going north and south.

Now I have to go and genuflect and chant in front of my Che Guevarra shrine

Che...Che...Che...Cheney,...Cheney

Comrades G West and Rkewen.

Its always good to give the Justice system some competition.

Thanks for trying the Basi/Virk case on the TYEE and saving us millions of dollars.

Let's have two trials and then compare outcomes.

Talk about disconnected...

G West: when we first engaged in my pet peeve(ALR) last month,....I submitted that the whole issue and its collective infrastructure is so disjointed....the Basi/Virk " allegations " are not at all a surprise.

In fact the whole process reeks and almost encourages this type of problem, and who knows how much if this actually goes on. It was flawed since day one.

The foundation is bad..the cracks are showing ...nobody sneeze.

The now negotiated WTO/GATS treaty will take care of this problem: 160+ service sectors will be open for multinational takeovers and forced privatization and companies will be able to import their workers from anywhere.

YET THE PUBLIC KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT WHAT'S BEING NEGOTIATED IN SECRET!!!!!!!!!!

On the other hand, Canada has always relied on imported skills. I have been working on jobs where every trade was divided among different nationalities. One job in the British Properties comes to mind: The carpenters were Norwegians, the concrete guys Italians, the cabinetmakers Hungarians, the painters germans and Austrians, the electricians Scots, the landscapers Japanese.... all of them offshore trained immigrants.

This situations was being corrected in an improving way since about the early '70s, when my apprentices had to go to BCIT for a month every year, but the Campbell gang wrecked the apprenticeship programs and handed it over to big business to half train people.

More "efficient"..... they say, without the slightest clue as to what "efficiency" really is. As long as a corporation makes huge profits, it is "efficient" in their ideologically warped little minds.

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

G West, is there anything between our comments, this one and yours above. No, I don't see anything. Do you see what I mean Garth, "nonsense" aka the man with the baton just blithely picks up where ever and spouts whatever.

I was trying to make a point with the Mexico diversion, obviously the point was entirely missed like anything else anyone tries to say to the one with the random neural activity.

btw, ("and this could be the last time")
©jagger-richards

Why didn't you spend the money in BC and help the local economy ???

How many generations was the local removed from Pancho Villa ???

Since I lived on the border (not the 49th) at the time no airplanes were necessary. I hardly spent any money in Mexico much less BC, as I was a teenager (still in high school, btw did you go there? (high school that is))and my buddy and I would camp on the beach near where our local friend lived with his family.

He was Pancho Villa, retired from revolutionary tasks with a new identity as a skin diving family man.

and maestro:
This is most likely the last time I will waste my time responding to your random chatter - yeah.....I know I've said that before - but I do have some actual, like, stuff that I intend to accomplish today. I would advise you to quit using your baton to whack yourself alongside the head, we are all seeing the effects.

Frank:

Re the Fidel Castro career fork -in -the - road ....Revolutionary leader or Pro- Baseball Player...and the effect on World History.

Answer: No, it would NOT have affected World History (you were CORRECT Frank )....

WHY??? the New York Yankees had the pennant sewn up early that year.(Before the Wild card structure was adopted).

See...its a relativity argument..some may find humourous(forget condescending RKewen . I think Steve Ballmer writes his stuff anyway )...or food for thought. Butterfly wing effect.

Maybe Castro could have combined both careers....maybe he could have been a star ball player which Americans love...can you see the sheer irony of playing for the WASHINGTON DC Baseball team??? ...and then continuing the Cuban Revolution through his player agent??? Perhaps the US could have accepted this dual role and not had the Cubans Cigars embargoed.

See there is always a solution there if we think outside the box.

Now I know G West(actually not a bad guy) and Rkewen (????) are dedicated to the overthrow of BC Gov'ts...probably reading "Political Overthrows for Dummies"...or watched some late night TV ad on how to do so on CBC with a free trial offer.

Reminds me of Monty Python skit " Hitler in England " ....huddled...hiding...and when they speak....the audience is underwhelming.

Same old...same old..

Baton man, if I ask you nice, would you explain to me what is really going on with the Birk/Vasi case and what it all means? I'm slamming the palm of my hand into my forehead because I didn't think of this obvious method to learn the answer to all my questions regarding this perversion/diversion of justice.

Throw away the internets, the dictionaries and encyclopedias - World Almanac - not necessary - just ask the man with the baton and prepare to become all knowing!

Rkewen
I think you're actually on to something re the computer generated, spinning off into utter nonsense quality of our interlocutor's retorts. Each one picking up some small aspect of your comment (or Frank's or mine) and spitting it back in some completely inappropriate and out of context way. Bizarre!

By comparison, IAMC (Ron Erwin) is a polymath.

Enough of this my friend, I've work to do.

Rkewen:

" ___________________ "

Actually...why am I addressing this to you....????? you are exhibiting your version of free democratic choice by resigning and bailing from the discussion. People of your beliefs and mindset should be taken at their word...

( Note to self...fatal error ie ASS-U-ME ).

G West:

Do me a favour...and forward this to RKewen. I did enjoy their Maestro contrarian spider robot program comment and Maestro lawyer wannabee etc. etc. Actually I enjoyed much of the commentary. Is Isaac Asimov alive too???

Now that we have substantiated Elvis is alive, Ken Lay isnt dead either, nor possibly Pancho Villa , all hiding out, maybe even sharing rent.......RKewen did not deny he wasn't Trotsky.

Given RKewen has been very vague of his caves locale ie the KOOTENAYs...geez Maestro how can you be so stupid re profiling RKewen. Kootenays...settled by ex Eastern Europeans...(Trotsky ??? ) local economy...cops turn a blind eye...lots of_______.

I think I heard Bush McCheney sent the Enola Gay flying over in RKewen's direction. (oh shiiiiiiit another conspiracy theory)

ALSO: Tell RKewen to bunker down...(and make back up copies of Maestros thoughts )....the latest US free trade export is apparently about to bypass the border guards aka the two forest fires at the CANADA - USA border and heading north.

I'm sure he can blame Bush and Cheney some how...Maybe even call Mr Bin Laden via satellite phone and ask for tips....he's survived US fire so far.

Now that RKewen is gone...(the master plan has succeeded!!!)...Rkewen can focus his efforts with his Castro's " mini- me " - esque overthrow of Yahk.

Re background...I wouldn't give ya duh irrelevant satizfacshun of knowink how farz I wentz in duh edjoocayshun cystem....total straw man argument and grasping at straws...How about either never past K or have a Phd....waitink fer duh widdy retort.

Sorry dude...you must know what I'm implying...but if you don't ....that's too bad.

ROTFL,ROTFL,ROTFL,gag,ROTFL,and repeat...

I believe I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that the Basi gang lawyers were in court for a bit more time. Can't remember if it was in the Victoria court or Vancouver, but sort of think it was Victoria. They can stall but eventually they will end up in front of a judge. we will know they are close when we start seeing news clips of all those Sergeant cops hauling off the files.

I remember Dominion Bridge and all of the people it used to employ and payed a good living wage & still made a good profit! Shareholders are Bottomfeeders!
These bunch of thugs in power now are only in for the short term, the rape/pillage of this Province & OUR Country!
RBC 1st 1/4 profit $1,000,000,600. add this up ouch (homeless etc) and that's just one bank?

The latest on Basi. http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/

This is why this Great Country is in such a MESS, people can't use this very public & open forum to constructively find a solution for the very fiber of what has made Canada a Great Peacekeeping country!
Now being gutted by Harper and his "god satan" Cheney, Bush, Rummy, auntie tom etc.
What ever happened to the top ranking officers who came out against the war?
We were to go to Afghanistan as a peacekeeping & rebuilding force NOT to go chasing after Taliban?
4 more killed and many wounded humm wounded = what? Arms, legs, eyes missing, shell shock (like a boxer, brain made into mush, like Mohamed Alli). Wounded is a way to minimize the real impact to the public!
We'll never hear the truth from the msm.
Here the real truth will set us free!
http://www.iwtnews.com/home

maestro, yes the Riders rock. Grey Cup? Could be but then I say that every year. Used to have season's tickets when I lived there and drove 3 hours to and from games with a car load of similar minds. 8 years of good times. And yes I hate the Esks and Stamps. You have to sign that contract before they let you into Taylor Field.

How do we know Castro wasn't in the majors? Could've used an assumed name you know.

I didn't really follow your logic in that post. Ever lived in Alberta? I lived in Edmonton for awhile. Lots of low paid jobs happen in Alberta too. The unskilled in Fort McMurray can get $15 an hour at Subway, yes, but they can't get $35 an hour. What would be the motivation for the company to pay that? Its not like theres a shortage of unskilled workers. They're sleeping on the streets. People pouring into the province because they heard there's work but they don't have the skills the oil patch wants. Your brother-in-law has his head up his ass, sorry.

As for the environment, the Right has controlled Alberta throughout its history and the province has the worst environmental record. I think they need some BC environmentalists there don't you? Regardless, they are growing their own now, look at the rise in support of the Greens there.

I have that mpg on my VectorLinux desktop, one of my favourites.

Comrade G West:

Please forward this to RKewen (aka Steve Ballmer). Hopefully this gets to him before the Enola Gay payload does .

RKewen. I have a friend/colleague(....believe it or not)...a Hi-Techie type, downsized from IBM.

He's older than me. Really bright guy. We make a great team on a common initiative, mostly because we are in many ways we are total opposites, but in many ways very similar with all the real -world war wounds aka life experience.

One of the differences is our approach to problem solving....he is of the quasi binary logic YES vs. NO answers.

I, on the other hand am not "hard-wired/ programmed" that way. Used to be. Some of his binary logic gems I use....they create the focus, or template, for the best direction....

We act as quality control...acting like devil's advocates to each other...

Yes we will also disagree and argue...to avoid becoming mexican barking spider contrarian logic robots who often flip between NDP esque and Federal Liberal with their know -it- all ideology.

He on the other hand...in his listening to my views/conclusions and after hacking through all the BS weeds etc. often says " BOY, I'M SURE GLAD YOU ARE ON OUR SIDE."

As mentioned earlier...I have been on this blog for about a month.

G West is an intelligent dude. RKewen is an intelligent dude. Most bloggers tend to be intelligent dudes or dudettes.

So what's the problem????

At the end of FOG of WAR mentioned earlier....Robert McNamara made a very a-political statement as he summed up his political career. He said , after all is said and done....after you have said your piece...and re ANY further comment.... YOU ARE DAMNED IF YOU DO...AND DAMNED IF YOU DON'T ..and he chose the I'D RATHER BE DAMNED IF YOU DON'T route.

I interpret this as OK , one says one's piece...after that...everyone starts the profiling process...makes the new conclusions or maintains the old ones...and to go any further the public snake pit starts.

Point is??? ......in avoiding contrarian Mexican barking spider contrarian robot program (available now at Trudeau's Wal Mart franchise) ....my ALR issue (my original TYEE attempt last month ) ran into a waste of time brick wall.

It was the old quasi " when -did -you stop -beating -your________ " type-of-comments....a no win....(i)damned if do try to discuss it ??? YES ...(ii) damned if don't??? YES ...the "don't" option is much easier.

I used to think Profiling was western voodoo, but in hindsight,...and looking back....I wished it had been invented earlier...

Unfortunately,...when certain issues get discussed...often their is so MUCH jungle to hack through...EXAMPLE :ALR link to Basi/Virk...I wasn't a fly on the wall....but the best analogy I can think of is from my take on it is like leaving a Brinks truck open on a windy day and the people grab the cash flying around.....and I don't blame the people...I blame the original Brinks company.

Currently, I am reading the " fruits of our labour " in the local town paper...my colleague and I see almost verbatim our influence in the formal proceedings being reported.....Bobby Fischer would be proud of our moves...

Most issues have such huge NON binary .....NON "Yes vs. No" backgrounds .....if you don't have all the facts....do the homework.....and think outside the box...and support your own views....more and more of society does a "f'-it" McNamara muteness .

My colleague and I, on our initiative... went to the valves...not the entire reservoir...ie not the TYEE, not the media...but those whose cages get seriously rattled best. That's our E=MC squared proof and goal...not what the public "thinks they think "...that's a black hole.

Wish I could give more details,dude..but that involves WAY TOO MUCH background...but I was McNamara'd too much...I'd rather do the circuitous route and try to see the overall diamonds each and every facets. I'm hear to learn too...believe it or not.

Has no one here have any answers to my blog 41min ago or am I touching to close to home?

Frank:

Todays' game report :

Hot n' cold running water ..... err Albertan QB Ricky Ray: Play for the coach or against them???. Also...I am pretty sure he gets at least $35/ hour.

Sorry...re jobs....just repeating what those profiled as Redneck Prairie Stubble jumpers and what they tell me...didn't surprise them with Spanish Inquistion (nudge -nudge wink- wink )and beat/tickle the truth out of them.

Brother -in - law was the Enviro- critic...one of most common sense guy I know...hopefully run for Governor of Alberta one day ....and start the long overdue process of Canada's acceptance of the US into Confederation.

Point is too many enviros " pick and chose " the environments the enviros actually choose to defend....I was in Norman Wells way up north once..fascinating northern environment ... I think Greenpeace was vacationing in Hawaii at the time.

Reminds me of the Seal Hunt ....oh no...the "H" word ..hypocrisy ..shiiit its my spider robot contrarian logic program kicking in(now on sale at Trudeau's Wal Mart in Cuba ....2007 version due soon ...US funds only...)....Why wasn't Bridget Bardot snorkelling in her birthday suit (with Captain Highliner) before her suit went south and her not hugging the cod stocks...???

If she did...Mighta saved a lot of Newfies(bloody foreigners) from migrating to the Oil Patch and displacing native Alberta workers and maybe even Ricky Ray...

Thats my point to jesterjogger....spread the variables around evenly....non hypocritical enviromentalism is one of them. We don't need rich liberals like the Kennedy's coming up here with their know -it -all crap...on their " I'm rich, bored, so I will save the world" tour...we have the people here who can resolve these issue...and should...

Castro ....yeah, maybe he did play pro-ball and we don't know about it...A lot of things happened in the late 1950's and 60's we never knew about...but is coming out slowly. Rumour is he also subs for ZZ-Top.

I won't go into the "Trudeau and Maggie" meets Castro era....but I view Trudeau and his impact with a contradictory both grudging respect and yet a lot of detest...he was certainly a good card player and machiavellian power broker...

On the global front...have you been able to get the Monty Python garden party skit/parody of Sam Peckinpaugh movies ??? Only one available on-line is a very low quality scratchy copy. I did have the foresight to tape them all via VHS format 20 years ago when PBS broadcast them in one of their marathons.

BC Dude, I had no argument to what you posted so I didn't reply. I did check out your links though.

maestro,

So? Do you pay them? You pick and choose what you do in your day to day don't you? While you were in Norman Wells why weren't you on the Pacific saving whales? Hypocrisy? If you care as much about the environment as environmentalists what have you done? Why are you so worried about people not being paid for protesting things that are important to them? Just because they don't protest everything? Or just because they don't protest everything that is important to you?

I think you may have to go to Dictionary.com and look up the word hypocrisy again. Its not hypocrisy to do what you're interested the most in and as your means allow.

But they don't. As your Alberta report demonstrated. Environmentalists aren't there in big numbers and Alberta has the worst record. Guess Alberta really does need foreigners to tell tham things.

Nope, never seen it, sounds good though.

To BC Dude....

Like my blog yesterday to jesterjogger...

Diagnose and offer solutions....Is this(i) solely a made and stay in BC problem or (ii) are we simply the aftershock recipient of a broader global evolution???.

Half my family is located in the Eastern US... The family joke is that what happens there happens here in Canada in about 10 years...likley even less time now.

Forget the Bush, Bush Jr, Cheney Reagan....etc. slagging...I recall a report that states overall Can-USA trade has grown regardless of who is in power in either country . Check history... more wars during supposedly US "liberal/dove)" Democrats. However,..Maybe due to more bad luck/timing versus evil- empire agenda

Yes, war sucks....but some places, unfortunately do not want peace...to them peace sucks...war and continued upheaval / controversy is a way of life, rooted for 1000's of years. A life is a life, wherever they come from...

Canada was a different place Then vs. Now...the global rule book etc. , and even in Canada rule book /environment has changed...

When the rules change...adapt accordingly.....The NHL did...
I almost gave up on it..... booorring , now I can't wait for the season to start...

PS as a Labour Day " comrade on some issues " bonus -bonus...one thing the press missed was Gordo and family...and the BCTF settlement . Unless I am mistaken Gordo's wife is a Non- union school administrator...and my understanding is that most school districts NON- union administration(ie superintendents, secretary- treasurers, school administrators/prinicipals etc.) contracts piggyyback what % increases the teachers get...

Thats bigger $$$$'s given they are paid more than teachers... Gordo's wife very likley got the same % increase...

Not a well - known perk...it was reported in our local paper.

A bit of a conflict-of-interest ....???

PS Funny you mentioned Dominion Bridge...an Ex - executive from there actually just retired from his position in our school district.

Frank:

Good game eh....thought Calgary was going to blow it and the Esks horsehoes show up again.

Whewwww !!!
-------------------
Old enough to remember 1970's Kung Fu TV series with David Carradine..the old Grasshopper quote ??? Time to dispense a wee dollop of wisdom.

About the same time the TV series played...a bunch of enviros sailed up the BC coast and protested the Amchitka Nuclear blast in Alaska. This group was the roots of Greenpeace.

Objectively speaking they had little $$$ but instead donated a lot of time and passion... However, over time they become much like the $$$ grabbing corporations they detest. How much donated money goes to overhead ??? Some are lean and mean ,...others would amaze you. I think a lot of Greenpeaces original founders have bailed...

Also....I know you'll probably feel I'm full of it...but in my travels I had the opportunity to discuss at length the BC Green party with a former member....an idealist who left jaded...or more to the point, disgusted.....talking to me about the power struggle for control of the party the public rarely sees...and mostly over the $$$$ funds....

I can't forget the CBC show where a Non Profit Enviro group executive was asked why he was paid over $100,000 per year...and this was 20 years ago. He was pissed off , took off on his Lear jet...and never answered.

I never said I was for or against the enviros. They have a right to exist in a democracy...However, it's not my own personal calling to save the whales...or tree hug...or blockade logging roads..etc.

I went to Norman Wells for a visit...I didn't go up to fundraise for the environment and then embezzle the money or rent expensive digs. No hypocrisy there ....I fulfilled the original mission aka a visit. Maestro mostly volunteers his time...moreso than donates the money....better way to go...

Being an actual involved volunteer allows you to separate fact from fiction. In fact, volunteering often makes me see real things I almost wish I didn't see, but at least I see it first hand.

Frank-ly....I don't see YOUR point...I simply stated that enviros seem to choose the warm....or less cold....or cute(seals) ...and are media savvy....and a lot of people donate and write cheques. Are the enviros bang on with their facts... a help ...or a hindrance to the issue ???

It may take a bit of research to corroborate. ....but some claim the Maritime Cod stocks collapsed due to the seals were no longer culled...due to all the protests, and thus impacted the cod stocks . If corroborated , these displaced many maritimers,.. many of whom work in the oil patch... See the " possible " ripple effect connection???

Maybe the problem with Alberta is that most people don't think it...or Saskatchewan....or Manitoba or.....have an environment....so the enviros see it as a bad investment to focus their efforts on ...when they should instead direct their resources to let people know these other Provinces have their own unique ones. Saving BC and not the rest of the country makes no sense...

Also ....If the locals don't care...its rather silly for foreigners like Kennedy to get involved...

Anyone can chain themselves to an old growth BC tree..." size (media optics) matters ".

In Norman Wells...I brought back a piece of firewood about 3 inches in diameter and the growth rings indicate an age of 150 years...its old growth too... but no sign of protestor chain marks ???

In some ways its all relative,...but then again all connected. Groups like Ducks Unlimited actually do constructive things...buy and secure the enviro asset...vs waste trees for donation slips to save trees.

Hypocrisy to me is more of an A to Z thing.

Frank:

Re Monty Python skit.

It involves an English Victorian garden party with everyone dressed in their Sunday best.

Someone does the ol' Tally -Ho mode " Tennis anyone ??? "

A ball is flung to someone...it hits them and blood pours out. Chaos ensues and the bloody domino- effect kicks- in.

Peoples' limbs and heads start falling off with each new chaotic event.

One person is impaled with a tennis racket.

John Cleese is playing the piano..the lid falls on his hands and they are instantly cut off...He lifts up the stumps and the blood pours out like a fire hose...

The whole party turns into a bloody gory mess. Reminds me of the last Federal Liberal leadership convention which annointed Paul Martin

(SNL has ripped off this skit before.)

It was a parody of Sam Peckinpaugh blood and guts movies...quite a shocker when it was first broadcast...but pales in comparison to what we see now...but still funny.

Punch in Monty Python if you download stuff...look for the garden party...or something to that effect...may still get the grainy one I have.

Enjoy!

maestro,
You're not getting where I'm coming from.

Unless you're a big donater why would you care?

I'm assuming this is in reply to my saying the Green party support is on the rise in Alberta?? Again, everyone in the Greens could quit, doesn't have any bearing on my point.

You were supporting him? There's lots of people making over $100,000 a year, why would he be the subject of an investigation? And why would you care so much you remember it?

Its not theirs either, they are free to protest what they like and not protest what they like. They are free to think whatever they like. Unless someone trying to save whales is working on a whaler there's no hypocrisy.

Again, enviros are free to choose whatever they like to protect. If they think there's a better chance of saving cute baby seals than some species of snake then that's simply being smart. Its not being hypocrital.

Places with lots of enviro protesters seem to have a better enviro record than places without them so clearly they're a help.

It would take a huge amount of research to do that since all science says that's bs. Its just seal hunters trying to cover their own asses. A ripple effect indeed, note the connection? If the cod wasn't fished to near-extnction you wouldn't have to worry about seals at all. Somehow the cod survived the lack of seal hunters before we arrived.

So its up to BC enviros to save the rest of the country? Again, you're expecting too much from these people. They don't have the time or money to protest everything across Canada. They can only protest the stuff that means the most to them and which they can afford. To say you care about the environment and yet expect someone else to protect it is hypcritical.

Why? If they have the inclination, time and money to go there I don't see the problem. Asian driftnets might not be on the Fraser River but I can still want it stopped.

Anyway maestro, its been over 24 hours hasn't it? You gonna tell me your thoughts and which side of the Golden Ears issue you're on?

Frank Frank Frank:

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Your science...my scinece..their science...

Rebuttals:

-if I donate $5 ...I want to know the breakdown...moreso care than the rich dude who gives $10,000....he'd be embarrased if he found he was scammed...likely save face and ignore it...ME??? I'd make it very well known.

----Green party anecdote supports the above.

-----How if God's green earth can you conclude I support that $ 100,000 a year enviro??? It was simply recollection of an ambush interview...set me in reflection mode re: the enviros. Do you remeber 9/11...some things stick with you as a basis of your philosophy .

----Separate pararaphs...you seemed to imply its my duty to save the whales...if I am in Norman Wells...??? Disconnect here...I simply said where I stand...with corroborative and consistent actions...what is your definition of hypocrisy????

--- sorry ....can't pick and choose....the environment is a broad intricate integrated biological system.....or you skew the whole thing....and the equilibraic shifts happen. If a fireman comes to a house fire...better do the whole house,...not the rooms which feature their favourite colours...

---- sorry don't say " all the science says its bs..." Qualify your statements..I did...If you know for sure....you must be God...or if an aetheist (Darwin). My best curveball analogy re "100% science fact" is a pop question of who was the fastest runner in th 1988 Olympics...and MY answer is Ben Johnson... The failed drug test???? no one can prove the drugs made him faster...all science showed was he had it...everyone connects the dots as 100% guilty.

---No.....I simply imply that the enviros shouldn't go to Europe and shit in BC.s nest and ask for BC lumber boycotts. This benefits other jurisdictions the enviros don't slag ie Alberta....

---I care about the environment in my own way...most of us try to be responsible... The problem I see is these groups tend to fill some sort of void as THE ANSWER like a new age religion. That is a big problem I have...

Asian driftnets are usually in international waters...different issue.

Getting late..talk about bridge building tomorrow.

Then don't donate. Even ebay's policy is buyer beware.

You're still not getting it. Why weren't you the subject of an ambush interview? Just because a guy says "I want to protect some trees" shouldn't make him a target. What if some guy declared he was going to be a fisherman and the CBC went after him and discovered he made $100,000. Would you call him a hypocrite? Then why call the enviro a hypocrite?
I've heard there's people that play the stock market and make $100,000+ a year. Hypocrites?
I simply don't see the connection between a guy's income and his wanting to save whales or trees. I don't recall people having to apply for a gov't license to care about the environment and being told they have to take vows of poverty and celibacy in order to do so.

Why is that a disconnect? You claim enviros can't go to Hawaii if they say they want to save whales. I don't see the connection. I think its a bigger problem to have the premier of BC sitting in a Hawaiian drunk tank.

Firemen are paid to put out the fires they're told to put out. If you hire someone to protect a tree and they protect a different one you can complain. But otherwise, enviros don't work for you or the gov't and they certainly can go protect whichever tree suits their fancy. If you want firemen to live by the same rules ask them why BC firemen aren't putting out Ontario fires and also why they get paid. Firemen, in other words, are employees. Enviromentalists are nature fans and are similar to Lions fans or Canucks fans, people have the right to cheer for what they want. Until the day comes we live in a dictatorship enviros will indeed be free to pick and choose what trees and animals they want to protect, its called living in a free country. If you don't want them to have that freedom make them gov't employees and pay them to protest.

I did, there were far more cod before seal hunters arrived. If large scale seal hunting was required to save cod then ipso facto there must not have been any cod when there wasn't any large-scale seal hunting. The facts say otherwise.

Unfortunately there's lots of things I don't like that people in BC do. But its a free country and I'm told I have to accept everything from communities where you can have multiple teenage wives to people that will happily chop down forests they don't live in or people that will employ foreigners on contracts I contributed to through my taxes or have a premier that sends my taxes to Germany.

Nope, the Asians don't own the ocean therefore they shouldn't be allowed to farm it just as I can't go to a place I don't own and farm it.

Actually, I suppose you could just go ahead and go to a place and farm it. Just don't be surprised if the R.C.M.P. burn your crop.

Frank, you're wasting your time. For some reason baton man likes to think he is some kind of wise man who understands how the world really works and considers it his duty to educate the rest of us unwashed and uninformed who have to make it through life without his wisdom.

At best he is just a shit-disturber with too much time on his hands and an internet connection. At worst he is a paid agent of the forces of disinformation, successfully distracting us from far more significant issues that assail us from every direction.

We must not waste our time and energy trying to educate the mentally challenged and focus our energies and smarts on fighting the forces of corporate/fascism which are fronted in our jurisdictions by Stephen Harper and Gordon Campbell and their respective cabals of cronies.

Right now one of the main fronts is the pending Softwood Sellout. I know that most forest product company CEOs are most likely conservative in their views and if American, would very likely vote Republican. However, even these corporate piggies at the trough must feel somewhat offended that Harpo and the evil Emerson can just donate 1/2 billion of THEIR money to Karl Rove's polictical machine and the ill conceived dreams of world domination, of the Bu$h Crime Family.

The Canadian Parliament should be totally offended that this pretend Prime Minister would expect them to rubber stamp this egregious example of ILLEGAL campaign donations to a foreign power, that is far from concerned with Canada's own real interests.

Apparently the Libs and NDP in the house plan to vote against this scam. Amazingly though, word on the hill is that Gilles Duceppe and the Bloc will support this affront to all that is fair and just. Do Quebec nationalists really want to be such a large part of the Republican's hopes to retain control of Congress in the US? We know Quebeckers in general aren't too impressed with the Harp's aping of the Bush Doctrine instead of forging a real Canadian foreign policy - so how can they support this travesty - or is the problem that nobody is aware of what is actually going on.

I was pleased to hear Elliot Feldman interviewed on As It Happens last night, but other than that, this is totally under the radar except at the Tyee, my own website and the odd other place. The MSM and the members of Parliament need to be shamed into being accountable and actually stand up and say "I SUPPORT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA" or else don't give them 1/2 BILLION DOLLARS.
I am going to be calling and writing Alex Atamanenko, as well as Gilles Duceppe and some other key members. It is definitely time to call out those members of Parliament that are only Republicans in disguise.

I may double post this comment, here and at the board under the article from last week, which seems to have gone dormant, unfortunate for an issue of such grave import. The Libs playing fast and loose with ad agencies in Montreal pales next to Harper and Emerson's blatant donation towards protecting George Dubya "Yeah I'm a Felon, so what?" Bush from the impeachment he so richly deserves.

Bottlepicker, what?

Frank ...Frank...Frank...

Must be a worm hole in a parallel universe, I'll grab the duct tape..

We are talking about donations to a cause...based on goodwill and trust. Charities are no different than a profit making business...they require good old ca$h...money...not smiles and nods. Its best bang for the buck...or else the charity collapses and the donator gets turned off, the $$$ tap dries up. Aka they are actually selling us "something".

Recently reported...a major "running" fundraiser had a huge 6 - 7 figure overhead cost. Apparently they hire a private company to do all the work setting it up. This opened a debate (always good usually starts with the greater awareness versus presumption) and other charities then stated their overhead...One mentioned almost 90% went straight to the cause..Maestro likes to see that.

I am being "sold" on the assumption it is a non-profit charity. Charity means this business will direct most, if not all of its funds to the given cause.

Mcdonalds doesn't sell Big Whoppers...Its all about fraud, misrepresentation , etc.charity is no different. Again, you Frank are missing the point...its like the panhandler at the end of the day jumping into a limo....the $ 100,000 ENVIRO executive example was not saying they did anything illegal...the POINT is..hey I thought the cause was NON -profit...not an unaccountable self enrichment piggy bank. If the dude and their charity state he gets $100,000....and with a full disclosure list...before they ask you to cut a cheque..and people still give...there is no problem....

The point is how many people are told or ask...I was a little bit jaded after I saw it...again....panhandler and limo analogy.

Enviros and Victoria raw sewage dump: Why weren't they down there at the outflow pipe with scuba gear and picket signs...especially when Victoria has Mexican food night ??? Great photo opp...??? or not all photo opps are sexy and pleasant. Re: science and experts...I couldn't help but smirk when a scientist implies raw sewage aint' all bad...supplies nutrients for various living things like crabs...maybe Victoria has the best tasting crabs...whats the secret??? Yummm.

Reminds me of a book by an ex BC coroner...his morgue attendant used to give crabs to reporters...guess where they came from ???

Me and saving Norman Wells whales ?... no ..again... the POINT is about misrepresentation...I didn't go up there to save the whales...If I told a sponsor " pay my air fare and I will solicit donations " and I didn't...or went up there, knocked on doors and took donations then never gave them to the sponsor/charity....or ran up a huge expense tab.... thats the point..I didn't misrepresent.,...no hypocrisy there. What I said and thus did..or didn't say and thus didn't do.

The firemen analogy is the environment as the house...whats' the starting point ??? Baseline things like healthy streams and rivers are usually no brainers...

Asian driftnet issue...actually proves my point....all enviros treat the planet as one big ecosystem given the havoc these driftnets create all over the world's oceans. I agree with the enviros on that one.

Frank,...again my point is I agree the enviros can't chain themselves to every old growth tree ...etc....my POINT is they...or morseo their leadership can become no different as corporations etc. they slag (high exec. payrolls) and ask you to donate to them so they can fight them. Money tends to do that to all of us.

Like someone once said on the enviro media savvy front....how come you rarely if ever see the enviros try to save some "ugly" animal on TV...does that help other equally worthy creatures in the big eco picture...and that it ends up as a bloated cash grab...and eventually even the targeted creature to save is shoved in the closet.

Again, think about Ducks Unlimited model.

Ohh ooooh

Someone call the cops...

Someone is claiming to be Rkewen...
I thought he bailed...

Please donate to the Save RKewen fund. We'll give you a dog eared copy of " Where's Waldo" for every $100 donation.

Geez Rkewen aka Trotsky...you and your comrades remind me of those old Vapona strips they used to hang above the agri-stalls at the PNE....you fly around in circles and eventually get stuck...like a bunch of programmed lemmings ....united comrades dedicated to the cause of BS.

I await your .00075 % witty(-less) retort.

PS hows the overthrow of Yahk going...onto Spuzzum next ???

Baton boob:

Okay,.....real.....slow......now - I am not going anywhere, I just decided to quit bothering with trying to communicate with idiots - I'm making a temporary exception here and now!
buh, buh, buh, buh, buh, bye bye!

by the way your geography is as lacking as the rest of your knowledge(?). Spuzzum and Yahk aren't even in the same time zone.

Frank
Have you seen the original Brit version of " The Office"?

rkewen
Do you know "Mo" of kootenay cuts?

check out the Ricky Gervais character in " The Office"

You wouldn't like it baby.
You wouldn't like it here.
There's not much entertainment
and the critics are severe.
The Maestro says it's Mozart
but it sounds like bubble gum
When you're waiting
for the miracle to come.

I tried to be short, but it was too short!

anyway bob - No on Mo - not much for haircuts myself!

rkewen

http://kootenaycuts.com/

give it a look see

Thanks bob, I'll check it out. I thought you were referring to a hair stylist.

btc,

Only season 2. Damn funny though :)

maestro, so its not environmentalists you're upset at, its environmental organizations? Again, buyer beware, check the thing out and if you don't like how they're set up, don't donate. In fact, I would say don't donate at all and simply do enviro volunteer work on your own, again, whatever you are interested in. By far most enviros are the same, volunteers, paying their own freight.

The question is, if you care about it, why weren't you down there? Or do you only care about it enough to want someone that isn't you to do something?

And how is an enviro going to Hawaii misrepresentation? He's probably not paid, so if he wants to go to Hawaii or Tonga or new Zealand, so what?

But in order to be protected they need someone to be vocal about them.

But again, your point only applies to a small range of enviros. As I said, most are volunteers fighting for a particular issue at a particular time. So the key word in your statement is "can". If some grouping of enviros gets bigger and bigger and inundated with donations to the point its like a corporation then yes, it will exhibit corporate-like behaviour. But unlike business and gov't you don't have to donate to them to enjoy the benefits of their work. You can do your own enviro work without the need for any big grouping whether its picking up little along a forest trail or fighting to protect a little salmon stream from being used as a dump.

For the same reason the media uses models as their front-persons. Unless you think people reading the news were selected for their brains. If the media find enviros protesting seal pups instead of snakes a problem, they're hypocrites.

A guy I went to university with became a biologist and took a job with Ducks Unlimited before he was arrested. What exactly in their model do you want enviros to copy?

Frank:

In an earlier blog...I kind of explained the way I look at issues.

Too many McTrostky clones, why add water, put in the microwave and create more ???

You're a bright dude...

Perhaps my point best condensed is keep a healthy distance...a healthy skepticism.....peel back a few layers....and beware of wolves in sheep's clothing.

Sincere unpaid volunteers are worth their weight in gold...but you are getting my point of the professional- PAID non -profit groups...

DUCKS UNlimited secures the enviro asset...doesn't it???...see their signs in many places. What is the connection with your arrested friend ??? Steal or UNprofessional ....etc??

I Volunteer a lot myself ( I know Rkewen McTrotsky and his BoobScat in -bred Leftie family cyber posse' will either shit at that or come up with some .0000000000000573 % witless retort...yawwwnnn),....

I, when Volunteering , won't even accept gas money... but I find these group dynamics fascinating...There is always some original idealistic attraction...(+) goal advertised....then someone inevitably plays Rasputin....a lieutenant or two step up......the rest of the group is somewhat deer in headlights...Ripe for agendas beyond the altruistic original amalgam. Uggggllyyy and sad ! The Good leave,...the old boys/gals stay...simply repeat. Again.....re: my previous Green party comment.

Again ..wolf in sheeps clothing...who becomes a monopoly "spokespeople" on the issue/agenda...and the sincere enviros , for example, who I DO support,..yet get ignored if not undermined... Example: A day of say roll up the sleeves "stream cleaning" (YES) versus long drawn out Bio PHD thesis'(NO THANKS).

Simply applying human nature via real life experiences...NO substitute...(except the Mexican barking spider contrarian logic program McTrotsky wrote for Basi/Virk ...100% guaranteed US Funds only ...SVP)

Victoria raw sewage issue...SuperMr.Floatie...UNpaid..seemed to be worth more than a million dollars of " Enviro R Us Ltd." donations...Actually I pay a sewer levy for a sophisticated GVRD treatment plant...yet have no sewer hook-up ...yet have my sewage trucked to the same sewage treatment plant. Don't get me goin Frank...

PS It was good that McTrotsky went over and dressed up as Mr. Floatie...or was it a costume...??? Comrade BoobScat probably thought it was joint....good thing he didn't light it up Labour Day in Tofino.

Frank..back to the "Office" for a minute..
The Office manager..played by Ricky Gervais..he thinks he`s really funny but ..no one else does...then he gets really in your face defensive when no one laughs.

now that was funny...LOL
well tomorrows Wednesday..guess I`ll pick up the ole cheque score a nickel bag and maybe head over and lay about Long Beach..usually lots of leftie chicks about or some old volunteers cleaning up some creek that we can poke fun at and ridicule.

Ducks Unlimited has lots of money to protect ducks for hunting. Therefore they do a good job of protecting some wetlands. More power to 'em although I hate to see wetlands protected for the sake of duck hunters. Still, as long as they get protected. As for my friend, hated ducks, shot them all the time. Finally did it where an RCMP officer saw him blowing away ducks of all sizes out of season. I wouldn't claim my friend had the interest of the ducks at heart. But although his heart wasn't in the right place I don't want to tar the whole organization.

Anyway, again, it sounds like your problem is with organizations that exhibit typical behaviours endemic to organizations, not with actual on the ground environmentalists who just want to be able to drink clean water, eat healthy food, preserve some greenspace and have their kids breathe air that doesn't give them asthma?

I'm not saying all organizations aren't worth donating a few bucks. Some bigger groups are required when you need things like lawyers and biologists. Fact of life.

Look at Rafe's friend Morton up there in the Broughton area, she's doing good work, paying her frieght because that's her shtick and yet she gets flamed because fish farmers and gov't don't like what she says. She should be getting patted on the back for saving gov't money and providing information so they can make better decisions. Instead she's pilloried.

Just like on the east coast many of the attacks on environmentalists are simply the result of money versus conservation. When I see environmentalists attacked I like to know who's doing the attacking. Often its simply a case of someone that can make a buck if everybody would just turn their heads for a minute.

Ya, I saw the one where he does a bizarre dance :) The episode where he got fired was great too.

I keep meaning to order the episodes I missed, I heard there was a Christmas special after the 2nd season too.

Frank:

I kind of had a gut feel you would throw in Ducks Unlimited = Duck Hunter benefit .

I've hunted....not for years though...
It also gives me an opp. to see the REAL outdoors...and also appreciate the environment. (Oh please...no Leftie slags... anyone that hunts knows low success on average...much like fishing ).

Hunting season is increasingly regulated...Duck season is also short...open to licensed hunters, but provides a habitat for the Ducks 24/7/365 that might not otherwise have existed or been maintained.

The Ducks UNlimited support 100% secures an environment ..agreed...the fact it may involve the Hunters often misses the point....they put their money where their mouth is...and everyone benefits...including most ducks....and also for many other species who aren't or can't be hunted .

If Ducks UNlimited had hunters 24/7/ 365 shooting ducks with Uzi's I would have a problem.

Bang on..got my point...concern of organization umbrella-ing individuals... vs the individuals...

Not trying to be sarcastic....but what groups do you know of that actually outright buy similar wild areas and secure them like Ducks Unlimited . I was trying to think of some.

I think enviro clashes happen when its multi user Crown (Gov't) Land we all supposedly own.....ie loggers vs old growth, spotted owls...etc.

Its not always big money vs the other guys....there is a huge middle often caught IN the middle of these pissing/wrestling matches. There are a lot of people wearing gray hats...not black hats (subjectively defined bad guys) versus white hats (subjectively defined good guys ).

Like the U.B.C. Bio Science prof I heard awhile back on C.B.C. He`s really concerned about the changing pH value of the oceans..but he says whenever you try to speak out about these things you`re immediately branded a " treehugger" and the like...he sounded pretty depressed.
pH values..that one really got me..hadn`t thought of that.

I thought it was clear from my comments I wasn't attacking Ducks Unlimited.
I did say

I do indeed benefit from them. As I said, on a personal level I just happen not to like cute ducks getting shot.

As for cute animals versus snakes, I donate to the Surrey Reptile Refuge too, even though everything in there is butt-ugly and looks hungry all the time.

I don't hunt animals but was in the infantry. I suppose that means I can hunt people, but not animals eh.

And in those big land-use fights its almost always the case enviros lose. Maybe not when everyone's blood pressure is high, but later down the road when business-friendly meetings take place. Most of this province is people-free but that doesn't mean no one has access to it. Corporate interests seem to have no trouble accessing public lands whenever they want, eventually. Because money talks, it means temporary jobs and enviros can't win that fight and never will. I find the lack of long-term victories on the enviro side to be frustrating. You can't fight an attitude where everything has a price tag and therefore must be exploited for financial benefit. If we could there wouldn't be a child porn industry for example.

btc, what does he see as the long term problem from the pH balance issue? I haven't heard that before.

Frank...

Re Ducks UNlimited...100% Understood... just polishing and clarifying the comment...often we are not the only ones reading this...

Even more common ground...big fan of reptiles ..fascinating species....

I know a small logging operator...doesn't get away with much at all from Gov't and its regulations...

I think there is a healthy balance with his interests...society interests..the economy...the environment...which is the way it should be.

Just got back from pine beetle tree kill areas....its terrible...sad...and a whole other issue...re loggers enviros etc. and how mankind in general has to make some intersting judgement calls.

I'm sure a lot of parks were saved by the enviros...but many of them NOW have huge #'s of dead trees... love em thus leave them???...or log em....???

Just a thought, and not blaming anyone...

Frank
I hadn`t heard of it before either..though I worked in Water Treatment for many years ..where we treated pulp mill effluent streams with a super activated biological process (bugs)....(using 93% pure oxygen) kind of super charged aquatic composting..we composted in hours with a bioreactor what would normally take weeks..plus no pathogens..we tried to follow nature as much as possible and aimed our final discharges to match the receiving waters temperatures and pH values..( around 6.5 to 7) Howe Sound was making a really good recovery and faster than anticipated.
Anyway..this prof. was giving a warning
as to the oceans pH. changing ...I came in about half way where he was talking alot about the frustration at trying to make this kind of information available and then having to deal with being dismissed as a "hugger" and otherwise disecredited. He says the pH of the oceans are changing..I would think becoming more acidic? pH change would have a HUGE effect on sea life I would guess..actually it makes me shudder.
The abandoned Britannia Mine is known as one of the worst polluters in North America due to the acidic pH of run off and leachates from the copper tailings.
It killed Howe Sound. The Pulp Mill got most of the blame (and deservingly so in many instances)but the real killer was the mine.
They`ve just started with attempting pH control of the mine discharges. There is a small treatment plant in place there now.
Howe sound once teemed with sea life..Herring fleets would tie up at Woodfibre for supplies...Orca were a fairly common sight. The acidity of the mine discharge..the PulpMill sludge blanket moving around in the sound consuming the oxygen combined to pretty much ruin the sound.
I`ll see if I can dig up that interview or some information on the scientist for you..I don`t have alot of detail...but it sure has stayed with me.
bob

Bob the cat
Hey I just read your post and guess what?
I(we) make coagulant in small town BC for use all over western Canada.
But also guess what. Greedy developers want to force us out so they can steal our land and build yet more "luxury condo's" for the ruling elite (gordo's crew) and esl new bc'ers who "like drive mercedes whistler NOW!" (Blackbears BEWARE!!!)
This inspite of the fact that we are one of the last manufacturing entities left in town and that, thanks to gordonomics we have become a strip mall/wall-mart economy which brings me to my second point for our newest capitalist apologist, maestro:
Did you happen to notice the van sun today with it's front page story:
"BC HAS LARGEST SHARE OF WORKING POOR"
Well, GOLLLLLLLLYYYYYYYYYYYY GOMER PILE, THAT AINT MY FINGER EITHER!!!!
I guess it woulkdn't have anything to do with gordos union busting antics and privatization of our core industries heh?
Then again why share the resouces of our province with J

oe sixpack when all that capital can be redirected to the profit column of our corporate puppet-masters/campaign contributors.

to the tune of "Pharoah came to Egypt Land":

gordo came to lotus land,
let my workers go!
he lied and lied and
stole and stole,
let my people goooooooo!

jester
really man? Are they shutting you down for condos? Of course it doesn`t really surprise me..we knew we were doomed at the Pulp Mill..spoiling the view from the Furry Creek Golf course and the limos heading to Whistler.
How many workers? Union jobs? Is it for sure? Anybody gonna fight it? Is it Joan McIntyres development group?

Wal-Mart had their "job fair" recently..they need 150 full and part-time "partners"...48 people showed up... How are people supposed to work for 8 bucks an hour and live in Gordo Land?
The Home Depot has a " job fair"
coming up..
Maybe we could get on as greeters at Wal-Mart jj...
So whaddya frickin` want!?
Sorry to hear about your plant man..hope its just rumour..e-mail me if you want

I`d like to know more.
bob

Actually I think we are.

The 20 Caymans staring at me, the longest python in Canada and the 2nd longest pyhon, myriad types of snakes etc, its no wonder they can't ever get gov't help unlike bird and mammal sanctuaries.

If he was bigger he'd have lawyers and accountants to handle all that for him. Unfortunately, much as I sympathize with the hatred of red tape, there are those that run roughshod over the environment as soon as no one's looking over their shoulder. Less red tape and more enforcement of the end result would be nice too but Campbell doesn't seem to like laying fines against his supporters.

Yep, I've seen the pine-beetle infestation. Pretty bad and only a foretaste of what's to come perhaps.

btc, lots of Google hits on the subject including the BBC. Looks like another reason to believe the end is nigh :) As I said awhile ago on another thread, I don't see how we're getting out of this mess.

Thanks Frank I`ll google..hope I have better luck than trying to find the new yahoo group.

When I first saw all those red trees in Manning Park I thought I was having a flashback or something.
I didn`t know it had reached down that far..I thought it was ..up there..

My engineering friend told me not to worry..its just a cycle...

What I had to ask was "Were we here for the last cycle"?

Badda boom

Actually George Monbiot mentioned the pH balance in his latest column too. A sea without plankton. Interesting in a horrific kind of way.

you need to put an underline character between the two words

I used to be an Ironworker and can tell you anyone with a tq and interprovincial can get work in Alberta paying a hell of a lot more then you can make in this province.

I have very little interest in working in B.C., the wages are to low and w.c.b. is to scary trying to collect if you get hurt. Kleins friends in the non-union sector have been bringing people in from the China and the Phillipines, Ledcor has phillipinoes working at the long lake project south east of fort crack or mcmurrey to some, on the opti nexen project.

Rumour has it the phillipinoes are getting 1400 a month and accomodation, to build a project that with todays oil prices will make the owners billions, why people think this is ok is beyond me. The texans working there call us Canadians snow niggers behind our backs but not to our faces.

They told a bunch of us being indoctrinated at Syncrude that they (yabnkees) are in Alberta to stay and if we don't like it we can leave. And they wonder why people don't like them much, unless they are kissing their butts for a job.

One of the reasons the corporations cannot get skilled labour here is the housing boom, well this will likely come to an abrupt halt sooner then later.

Google U.S. housing boom, I like this one.

http://www.business-standard.com/common/storypage.php?autono=103775&leftnm=3&subLeft=0&chkFlg=

"One of the big factors shaping the outlook for the Indian business cycle is the world economy. If there is a sharp downturn in US GDP, this will influence our local business cycle. US economic growth has been under stress, with high oil prices and “global imbalances”, where the Chinese government has done “vendor financing” of over $1 trillion, giving loans to the US to finance purchases of Chinese goods. In the resolution of global imbalances, the first piece of the puzzle might prove to be the US housing market.

The real estate market is not transparent, and it is hard for speculators to take short positions or trade in derivatives, so as to restore sanity. This increases the risk of violations of market efficiency. From 1997 onwards, US house prices had run far ahead of rental values. Robert Shiller has pointed out that the “standard house”, which sold in 1890 for $100,000 (inflation-adjusted), was at just $110,000 in 1997, and has now risen to $199,000.

In recent weeks, there has been a rather sharp downturn in US house prices. Builder sentiment is 52 per cent down in August 2006 against one year ago. Building permits were also 21 per cent down. Housing starts were 13 per cent down. Existing-home sales were down 11 per cent and unsold inventory up 40 per cent. Out of the Dow Jones industry indices covering the US, the home construction index has been the worst performer over the last one year, going from a 52-week high of 1,037 to a present value of 620. Home prices have, as yet, only dropped by 5 per cent to 10 per cent, after taking into account “incentive packages”, or side payments, which many sellers are throwing in. As fear sets in, prices are likely to drop further.

This is a big change in the US housing scenario when compared with just one year ago. One year ago, new home sales were up 26 per cent—now they are down 22 per cent."

Vunderbar!

We have lift off...I am Eagle!!

I thought the article was about unionized companies getting shut out of contracts in BC. So why all the talk about Ducks Unlimited and a bunch of other stuff.A person writing a article on this site must get very discouraged the way the discussions lead elsewhere

Your right of course DPL...mid afternoon was very quiet and the thread drifted way off topic.
My apologies to the other posters and Tom Sandborn whose work I like very much.

Ursus posts were back on topic..and really good..snow niggers huh..they must laugh their heads off at us..bloody depressing.

I am a skilled bridge carpenter who went to the fathers day open house. It was a joke but I did give my info. No call Yet!

What is really depressing is the amount of power klein and the feds have given these guys. They own our tar sands and we will be standing by watching while they bring in workers from texas and oklahoma to do our work.

Maybe then even the Albertan will start to get angry. I won't hold my breath tho.

The really annoying part is the idiot factor that think this is ok to sell off our resources to a foreign state and allow them to use their own labour.

Maybe when the suits see their work being exported to places like India they will finally get off their asses, by then it will likely be to late.

The suits just about have it all sewn up it seems Ursus..
Ever get that "boxed in" feeling? Some very sinister stuff when you look at the big picture eh.

EDITED FOR POSSIBLE LIBEL.

JESTERJOGGER, I HAVE HAD TO EDIT YOU FOR POSSIBLE LIBEL A NUMBER OF TIMES. I HAVE TRIED TO CONTACT YOU THROUGH THE EMAIL YOU PROVIDED WHEN YOU REGISTERED. IT DOES NOT WORK. PLEASE CONTACT ME AT

TO DISCUSS THIS.

IF I DO NOT HEAR FROM YOU IN 48 HOURS UNFORTUNATELY I WILL HAVE TO BLOCK YOU FROM FURTHER POSTING ON THIS SITE.

TYEE EDITOR

jj
I was at Woodfibre for 30 years..I retired
early (health reasons)..two months later they announce the shut.. sold all the wood to Emerson. Two months and I missed out on a years severance.
I have heard she has an interest in the
luxury condo development..you know the one thats gonna capture that special Kitsilano feeling. Isn`t that wonderful?

So maybe we`re hearing the same rumours..I don`t have anything definite.
Drop me an e-mail with your e-mail address jj..some things can`t be discussed here.

btc

Hey Bob I worked at wood fibre when they bought the chip screen bldg from Gold River, did all the conveyers chutes etc on the shut down and later on the tie ins.

Probably saw you around ursus..I was in "The Bug Plant"..those big clarifiers near the screen building. It was always referred to as " the Building"..sure made a difference in their production..they went from 650-700 ton per day to over 800. the Mill was 625 ton per day design.

I guess they`ll be moving "The Building" down to Texas or Alberta ursus..they can have it..noisy thing..we had to fight like hell to get them to reverse those two huge exhaust pipes at the top..they had them pointing down...you could feel the vibration anywhere in the chip yard and the noise was driving the crane guy even crazier than his monotonous crane job was.
It was strange..it wasn`t really noise it was a deep vibration..the reason they resisted any changes was the decibels read ok..trying to convince them that it was something different than the usual "noise" took some convincing. The positive side of it I guess.. it seemed to keep everyone in the vicinity pretty regular.

workingman says

"What they do now is act like prima-donna schmucks on any site they work on. Got a big pour going at 10:00am? Coffee time! Can't wait until 10:10, them iron workers gotta stick to the contract. For that reason, I trained my own iron men from former union members who got sick of paying dues to Americans so they could sit on strike half of the time."

I was in the ironworkers for years and tho I didn't do rod do not recall seeing rod busters involved in a pour. As an Ironworker I have worked through my coffee breaks, lunch breaks and have in the past worked around the clock to get emergency jobs done so don't expect me to believe this slur on proud skilled tradesmen.

Really doubt you got any union Ironworkers from 97 when they can go to Alberta and make more in four months then they would working all year for you. Non-union contractors are not known for making their employees rich.

The Ironworkers have only been on strike once in B.C. that I know of, that was years before your time.

Anyway you better enjoy your little gold rush now before it all comes to an end! Read my above post about the U.S. Housing bubble that is finally showing signs of bursting.

The oldtimers in Vancouver will remember the buildings standing half built after the developers got greedy and a lot of them lost their shirts, history does and probably will repeat itself.

Probably, on the ferry or the site I had my motorhome set up at the campsite by the ferry.

Unfortunatley, everyone in the business does everything they can to avoid them and their American masters.

Me included.

Thats why they are gaining market share from you guys in the tarsands? And they are gaining market share from ledcor flint and most of the other non-union contractors.

Btw we are all americans, Canadians, Mexicans, Central Americans, and so on.

You don't think gordo worships them, look at his track record so far, educated there, sold B.C. Rail to them, sold
Terasen Gas to them, to name a few. The list is getting longer I am sure. Why do we have a foreigner running B.C. Ferries? Not much patriatism there!

Frank:

Sorry for the delay re my who should build Bridge response..school's back y know....

Drafting it now.

Frank:

I met an retired Ex -Union carpenter a few years ago. Great guy..Lots of good war stories. He told me Single Family houses were once built by Union labour. I didn't know that.

However, these Union built homes appear to be extinct . I don't think it's at all due to quality...as Unions generally do Top Quality work. It's probably related to cost. Question is ...can Non-union do the same work as well ???

In my view, the Bridge issue revolves around (i) cost of materials...and (ii) the labour costs component.

In this heated economy...material cost globally have increased dramatically...out of the Gov'ts control.
This leave the labour component. Controllable???

I know people in the Highways Dept that tell me many of these " new Civic projects" such as roads are based on " old " plans the bureaucracy has created years ago. Gov'ts choose to build them when the time is ripe,ie perhaps for a combination of altruistic and self- serving reward -supporters reasons. All Gov'ts do this.

One view I have is that Gov'ts should take these Civic Projects and use them to buffer economic cycles...to help the economy...and not build them when the economy is so heated... Maybe they feel they have the money available only in a booming economy...but they should have it set aside and allocated ..but then what obligates the next Gov't...vicious cycle. In slow times....this would negate the need to import workers...correct???

What if the boom " busts or recesses "....are they obligated to pay top dollar for materials ...or du jour current market prices..????.

My view is that if the materials are UNpredictable...the labour costs are the buffer to achieve an on- budget CIVIC project.

This may be one thing going on.

I am a littel gun shy on this...possibly after BCTF -itis via the irony of UNION claims there was a skilled labour shortage(teachers) , not management(Gov't)...which was refuted by Gov't as the pressure was applied.

To be continued.....

Frank:

Bridge topic continued:

Devil's advocate approach:

I think we as taxpayers expect the best bang for the buck..and should not be expected to subsidize any sector of the overall big picture economy, especially with Civic projects.

To do otherwise..we create a whole new set of ever increasing societal and economic gaps .

My philisophical retort is OK give THEM X..just so long as MY taxes or other costa re lowered by X....That's fair ...right..or a one -way street???.

The arguments that 51 % of the wages are re-patriated as local income taxes is true in theory. However, why not pay everyone $100 per hour??? Well what's often forgotten is that they need the $100 FIRST via TAX DOLLARS. Then the remaining 49 % amounts to what....is this a public subsidy to someone's fiscal lifestyle.????

Perhaps this deal has some global legal/trade issues we are not aware of. Perhaps this will open more two way trade with Germany...We may soon send our crews there to build German projects.

In my view , I think Gov'ts perform the due diligence to see the NET benefit vs the NET cost of these Civic projects with respect to the local contractors vs non local ....why wouldn't they .....we know Gov'ts want every tax dollar they can get...OR save...

This Bridge issue would make a great case study and every side should use it as a constructive learning example on this issue. The truth will inevitably comeout sooner or later.
I think everyone in the end will sharpen their pencils.

PS FYI ...In any Civic project...and all things being equal...and the bids are very close between Non Union and Union...(Note: most contracts have clauses that do not obligate the Tenderer to accept any or all bids ie not just the lowest bid )...I would support the UNION company bid if it was relatively close bidding ...

the neo-cons and idealogues will not listen to logic theirs is to spin lies over and over until the public believes them!

Anyone the least bit surprised by this has got to have been in a coma for the past seven years.

The term "indentured labour" is apt and fitting, these (ahem) guest workers are treated poorly, paid poorly, and have no "rights" worthy of the name.

The whole Olympic thing is a give-away, tax money going to those who already have more money than makes any moral sense, and the liEbrals are busy feathering their future nests, setting themselves up for well paying jobs and positions on boards of directors. And the public (dumb saps) get to pay for it. That's what you get for voting for the Phillistines, folks, it's just too bad those of us who saw through them and didn't vote for them wind up being taken on the same ride down that legendary slippery slope.

And now, no surprise at all, they, who promised such transparancy, such openness, such scheduled sittings so we'd all know what was going on...aren't going to have a sitting this fall. Must be too busy electioneering already.

Of course, the main stream media is mute, poor things, unable to do so much as squeak protest.

maestro, so you support foreign workers doing domestic Cdn jobs? There's no good case for it. Saying its cheaper would mean that if we outsourced all work to cheaper out-of-country labourers we'd be better off. Would Canada be better off if nobody here worked and all tasks were done out of country? No one would buy that argument and therefore no one is going to buy it for this project. If workers here are able to do it and they aren't given the work its a loss for us and a gain for Germany.

jesterjogger-unlike Coyote he libels as well as insults. Stealing land now. really? Like they throw it in the back of the truck they stole? Hysterical little boy crying wolf, see ya. About the story, why cannot we bring in people from other Provinces or U.S. states and pay them a decent wage, union rate? What would be wrong with that? I climb trees in the bush, I make good money, over $40 an hour, non union. Union climbers around powerlines only make around $24, I think that sucks. I pay more in taxes, I take home more, its all good.

Frank:

You are into this ABSOLUTE TRUTH MODE:

I am simply building a framework for the arguments..aka lets look for all the devils in all the details...

I can't start this with stretched contentions...did you read my LAST LINES...re Pro Union subject to...

I am trying to establish middle ground..to avoid the vortex/black hole of the farther reaches of each end of the political spectrum.

Unless I am mistaken....BC once had a steel mill ...on Mitchell Island...seem to recall an NDP initiative..(I could be wrong ) It's closed years ago...We buy our steel from elswhere...Why??? Never feasible...???

However, unless I am mistaken...The Golden Ears Bridge is a cable - stayed construction...and requires a lot of cement. I doubt it will be imported...and will have huge spin offs fro the local economy if you are in the CEMENT BIZ (I know someone will get cute re: A huge German Co. owns one of our local cement companies).

Sorry,....I gave you my view..as promised...but it seems you take my discussions..focus on a tiny bit...like a reporter taking a bit of the interview , removing the broader context...and using it as some absolute truth/proof to fill in some pre-conceived agenda/ blank.

AKA where did I say outsource ALL the work..ie " nobody worked here and all tasks were done out of country" ??? A REAL stretch !!

And again you say "no one would buy that argument"...so you either speak for everyone....or again Absolute truth???

We are here to debate an issue..the orignal article was food for thought it DOES NOT have all the details from either side of the issues..neither Gov't nor Union...

Blinkers at the side and rose coloured glasses on the front serve NO ONE.

Hey, I like the sound of that, can I use that as my handle. AbsoluteTruth says.. I disagree with AbsoluteTruth... AbsoluteTruth has a good point...

Yes

I don't focus on a tiny bit, I focus on your point.

I forget the philophical term, but its simply saying, why would you support foreigners doing our jobs for some of us but I assume not all of us? Its one of those "little bit pregnant" kind of arguments. Either its good for us all or it isn't. Where is the middle ground? There isn't one.

I'm willing to bet that if there was a poll done and asked people if all our jobs should be done by foreigners 99% would say that's a dumb idea. I'm willing to go out on a limb and declare that an Absolute Truth.

I'm a retired Union Journeyman Carpenter who worked on Mica Dam three times, Kamloops pulp mill, schools, etc.
There were no foreign workers then except a crew from Quebec to sink a shaft.
I don't believe there is a worker shortage, it's just the "man" using this ploy as another way of lowering our Very hard earned/fought for rights as Free men/women & to break the Unions!
RBC's 1st Qr earnings a staggering $1.3 Billion x 4 = $5.2 billion? What’s wrong with this picture?
Now if someone could go out and get the stories of people's, students, small to medium business’s, dashed Dreams & lives, who have had the plug pulled out from under them.
That’s where a great portion of the $1.3 billion comes from! Oh and charging to use your own money, Huh?
That's just one GREEDY blood sucker!
I'm Vancity now for about 15+ years

Then explain to me FRANKS World..

Unless you are a FIRST NATIONS member....everyone is effectively a foreigner...coming over here...or X generation Canadian....taking a job that could have or should have gone to (FILL IN THE BLANK_________) .

What if these foreign workers came and concurrently applied for Canadian Citizenship....????

Cite me a country (versus your over stretching imagination) that foreign workers have displaced 99% of the domestic workers??? Geez!!

Then its not foreign workers...its called Union Busting...right..??? or is it __________????

SOLUTION : Union - ize everyone...closed shop country .....give it a shot....that's your right in a democracy which supports your right to say it....

That same democracy also has REALITY on the other side as this majority view etc. acid test...

This sounds like a MIKE WALLACE overly edited interview...but at least I see the socio - political dinosaurs aren't extinct...

PS ...joined the PAC yet ????

?? FN's are Canadians. They vote and pay taxes to the same gov't I do.

That's a "what if" and would be a different debate.

That's my point, nobody else in the world thinks its a good idea.

Frank.....

There are two basic sectors in the economy ....the (i) PUBLIC Sector and the ...oh yeah whats it called...oh yeah (ii) PRIVATE Sector.

The Private sector seems to hum along...using both UNION and NON-Union...and competing in the REAL world... The parties hiring in the PRIVATE Sector usually go for the lowest bid.....and that may be UNION....or it may be NON Union. The Private sector tenderers is also a part of the economic chain....they have a things called a budget too. May the best bidder win...and don't Union Companies often get hired by the Private Sector...

However the bridge is a PUBLIC sector project...you, me and appox. 4 million BC citizens " shareholders " look at the price...we want the best bang for the buck...for good quality work. Now...Bids please!!!

And also note...nothing to stop people from the rest of Canada to come here.....get hired.......take BC Tax dollars...and repatriate them into their home province.

Unless I missed something...how many ironworkers are ACTUALLY needed...50...100...200 ??? UNION REP says Hundreds of ironworkers out of work??? Why??? Will this project make a dent ??? Maybe this is a media event PR cause- celebre' where perhaps the union leadership should look in the mirror ,see where the problem actually lies and seek solutions...versus trying to justify their jobs with straw man shit- flinging and some historical entitlement to the PUBLIC $$$$ teat.

Also note this is a TRANSLINK funded project...another quasi - body by the GVRD...with the situation involving the Federal Gov't peripherally via the imported labour concerns...

Again..PUBLIC Sector project....on the same playing field as the PRIVATE sector.....shouldn't be detached from reality...and it is not my constitutional etc. obligation to subsidize a detachment from reality.

Now...do I have your vote Frank...for the REALITY UNION ...?? the majority of BC REALITY UNION MEMBERS can't be wrong....can they ???

maestro, workers from other parts of Canada are still Canadians.

For some reason, post after post you insist on pitting union workers against non-inion workers. That isn't the issue.

Its whether tax dollars should be used to employ Canadian workers (whether they be union or non-union) or foreign workers. I say no.

That's the issue on the table today.

Frank:

Re-read the article

Objectively speaking.....

Its seems to be UNION driven..not NON- Union driven.

They are lobbying for THEIR MEMBERS..their duty and obligation...good for them.

That's the point....
Obviously something is missing if they aren't successful in getting the work...

Too much is missing...info-void .

Maybe get Jinny Sims to lobby...facts are irrelevant ...BUT it seems to work for her members.

Jinny would look good in a hard hat.Maybe do an honest days work,like the Ironworkers.

Sorry..not into blank and blind cheques, which is what I think this is really all about...just smoke and mirrors by a special interest group.

Otherwise..I have a bridge I can SELL YOU...your pick...throw in some fuzzy dice.

So because the problem is raised by a union it should be ignored and we should therefore use foreign workers?

In other words, this isn't a discussion about public money used to pay foreign workers, its simply yet another Tyee union-bashing thread?

Pay peanuts, get monkeys. Wont catch me drivin' over it.

On the subject of "Ducks Unlimited" and other "Save the Habitat" hunting organizations...we clearly agree "they" save the land to grow the ducks. All this so they can shoot 'em. This is much the same as the "Purcell Conservancey", which is land set aside to allow animals to grow up so they can be hunted.

I can see where enviro's and hunters overlap on issues, but I think a heads-up because of the sportsmans spirit of intent is important to consider. We come apart at a fundamental level...

Hunters have been in "control" for at least a hundred years. Does the fact we are in an extinction age, and perhaps the greatest ever, mean anything to any of us?? Have "they" done such a great job in protecting the wilderness and her creatures I wonder??

Hunters believe in alternating the natural and perfect ecologies via burns and predator culls (killing wolves and bears and their families). WE do not have to look further than what is happening in Alaska to see the persecution bears and wolves are under today and all in the BS name of increasing moose populations. There never was a moose population problem before. The wolves targets are simply the same targets as the trophy hunters. Big racks, old bulls...same targets. Competition...that is the issue imo.

Anyways, all I am saying is we have to be aware of the ultimate difference between the two groups. To get in bed together, via supporting hunting groups, imo, is not the way to go about saving these wild areas for the generations to come. Enviromental groups care about promoting natural and healthy ecologies in protected areas, not altering them... There may be exceptions, but these are the groups, if we care about the Earth, that we need to support... imo.

Peace

RTB

Frank:

I see many issues in the paper....

Each of us probably sees issues we likely know a fair bit about ...and cringe at the shallow or illogical or totally incorrect info...especially in Letter to the Editor sections. Some we don't know much about but simply absorb and either ignore or dig deeper. Any article is limited and often just scrapes the surface of the bigger issue.

ANY..I Repeat ANY story probably has much more than meets the eye.

I still recall the early 1980's and that fellow from the NON Union Cement Co on a False Creek site at some union protest shaking and rocking his truck...when his company had legally won the contract.I guess someone's Ox was gored and gooning is ok. ??? It seems since then the Unions have much less control/power. Clinging on???

That's all I see here...one side ....I don't have all the facts....but what I do see is a Union concern. If there are 100's of Ironworkers out of work as THEY, the union claim...prove it to the Federal Gov't....and apply the current law.

OR....If you don't like the currrent law...work to change it IF you have a good case.

Again...this is NOT union bashing...look at the broader issue...This is PUBLIC Sector work..I am a shareholder...I have the right to have a say on who gets it and why(ALL side PROVE their case)....just like your vote seeme to be pro Union regardless.

I told you how I would vote if the bidding was even close...Pro Union.

RTB...good points

I think we have common ground yet two different perspectives.

Hunter groups may be a major or minor contributor to Ducks UNlimited (DU).

However...I don't necessarily see them as lobbying Gov't to buy land with tax dollars. Point is...they take the bull by the horns..put the money where their mouth is..and buy land which I presume is kept in perpetuity for wildlife. I am not even sure they can hunt on their own DU land....that would be regulated by the Gov't Hunting regs.

The other enviro groups seems to lobby Gov't,...and demand a single land issue on what is Public Land. All talk??

Without trying to get into stereotypes...they seem to solicit donations...and put on campaigns...versus somehow securing an enviro asset. Can't say I've seen Sierra Club or the Greenpeace groups signs up in front of a secured habitat.

Please note that DU ( No I am not a member but drive by many of their saved sites) provide secured habitat for many species that cannot be hunted...ie mammals, other species,..raptors etc.

They could outlaw hunting tomorrow...but the land is secured, correct??? Where was Gov't or any other group.???

WE all have perhaps our own agendas, but at times there is a Venn diagram overlap where the common ground and mutual societal benefit makes any differences realitively miniscule.

Thus...I think the practical benefit to all sides of the political spectrum on matters like this far outweighs the perceived cost by any side.

Frank:

Onto things of far more global significance.

Didya see the Esks vs. Stamps game ??? :

I was torn....

Hate the Esks...
yet knew Stamps loss benefits BC more .

I kinda felt the Esks Clydesdales sized horseshoes would magically appear on that last drive...

I guess Calgary couldn't see that guy charging from the blind side all night and nailing Burris.

Ah well..Esks are still only 4 - 7...life is still good.

People will still blame Ralph Klein either way...there's a sure bet!!!

wtf has football got to do with this very important artical?
Remember non union (J)kerkoff & son in 86 SkyTrain bridge with huge over runs on budget and a snow shed on TransCanada Hwy of 10 million over cost, where are they now? maybe new name?
If U got nothing intelegent to say, say nothing!

For football or hockey or Monty Python or whatever discussions, probably best to contact me at

Thanks for your good feedback too maestro. Relative to your quote above, hunting groups or support of hunting groups, include Ducks Unlimited...

My understanding is the Gov't has a person hired within its organization, to ensure "retention and promotion" of hunting in B.C. This is interesting to me, as this suggests perhaps a comradery between the two groups; hunters and Gov't. In jest, I was wondering why the goverment does not have a separate section within dedicated to the "retention and promotion" of recreational Ping Pong players... Why does the Gov't not support their needs by having representation within?? Quite honestly, what is the difference; recreational hunters, recreational Ping Pong players...hummm??

Excellent point maestro, but the hunting groups have much more capital to work with $$$$. They get breaks from the government for auctions on items such as out-of-season tags to auction off for an exorbent fee to US trophy hunters for an example. In this way they are able to then put big money into buying lands, managing lands and increasing predator controls. The NGO's get private donations from people who care. Big difference. Guide\Outfitting rights were bought recently to protect the animals on the coast from trophy hunters, so they are attempting to do it via purchasing, but funding is necessary.

I hear what you are saying, but a note of caution: What ever the Gov't gives away, they will take more in return. ie. the Great Bear Rainforest deal. Now that a tiny amount of area is designated for protection in the GB, the "licence" for the devastation (via clear cut logging) in that area has to be seen to be believed.

One last point, the hunting groups memberships include many of the same people who are in Gov't making the rules... A ban on hunting will not be something that will happen in the near future imo...

Peace,

RTB

" Dude "

( Ti - Cat fan...right ???)

Most of these blogs seem to end up off topic...

The discussions seem to revolve around BLACK or WHITE...no gray...Too many box- it- in with blinkers discussions. Sound more like an interrogation than a debate.

Seems one side of the political spectrum seems to turn any issue in to same boring "we are right " ideological rants...(though I have to admit it gets quite amusing after a while).

Certain Bloggers often rant...and rant...and rant..... then asked to provide a solution...the silence is DEAFENING. Same old blame George Bush..or neocons...or abstract economic theories...right wing conspiracies...blah blah blah.

We are on the same F'n planet correct???.....or was that you and your comrades that made those crop circles upon landing...???

FYI. Many CIVIC projects run into cost overruns....thats the F'n problem for EVERYONE. Road projects have weasel clauses for unexpected/unforeseen situations...did you KNOW that ???

I don't give a rats ass who built Skytrain..or Sky Train bridges ....Union or Non Union...its a poor system and meant to subsidize Bombardier. Regardless...Private Sector seems to have sharper pencils...because they have to. Gov't has unlimited funds...correct ??? Some of these bloggers actually seem to believe that. That means the Taxpayer has unlimited income... right???

Maybe Non Union fills a void because many are sick of being held hostage.

Read " The Lords of the Rings "...re Olympics....people ride the gravy train building under-estimated CIVIC projects ...knowing it will likely be a cost over-run...its a formulaic scam...we all pay Union , Non Union...rich...poor ...middle - class.

Get the point??? ...and quit adding more ammo fitting the stereotype...bitch -bitch- bitch with nothing really CONSTRUCTIVE to say. Seems to be a UNION made box some are stuck in.

The bridge contract was given to another company...they will "apparently" use foreign workers...WHY??? Start there.
The World's changed...some peoples alarm clock seems to be set in 10 - 20 year increments.

Maybe The BC Fed read this topic and said that F'n Maestro has some good points...which they can use.

PS....No Charge BC Fed.

...good job "dude", (tongue in cheek) now "m" is all heated up if he responds to my post...rtb.

RTB:

Again good comments:

Maybe we homo sapiens(HS) are like a quasi-virus...we have touched every corner of the planet...and growing...but hunting them(HS) to keep their numbers down is illegal...or the permit/tag is too expensive.

The pine beetle kill is a good case in point. The Gov't has posted signs along the highways and telling the pine beetle story.

Now qualifying my statement that this ain't BS...they claim that the pine forest has had its natural cycle compromised by man via fire suppression.

The pine trees has taken over...when it otherwise wouldn't...and created an UN-natural amount of pine for the beetles. When the climate changed and the winters were on average warmer..the pine beetles weren't kept in check. Hence gas(pine) meets the match(beetle). Huge pine beetle pine tree kill.

Now if we preserve these trees in Parks...still SOL...there are toast. Fuel for future mega fires ???

If we log them...we remove the fuel...( current Tatoosh fire ???) Nature can then start over.

Whats the call given HS aka man's intervention???.

Some say logging is mans' parallel to the fires which are a historical probability we HS's have counteracted for decades. I go to the Cariboo...have for decades....see the fuel on the forest floors...and the current pine beetle kill.

Point is...unless we cull the human popluation...we have impacts...and sometimes we upset the natural order...and have to balance it out.

Everyone has agendas....and views..and suspicions about what goes around in the backrooms re $$$$ etc. . Personally, I can't be bothered with Bush and Bin Laden type theories.

If at the end of the day...someone's so called self interest agenda ie (DU)has benefitted society at large with far larger collateral affects....everyone wins.

More Ducks win via DU than ducks lose via DU. Thus...a Net benefit that might not otherwise happen.

Not everyone has a monopoly on the Pro-Environment front...Hunters are often the first to rat out Poachers...report other enviro concerns...find lost or unfortunately dead people...Most hunters I know have a high regard for the environment...regardless of the shooting Bambi stereotype.

However, like everything else...overly regulated...

Sorry gotta go...a knock on the door..its the Gov't Minister for recreational Ping- Pong player lobby(immigration???..sorry I had to say that)...and they have a gun....

Back at you on "good comments" maestro...,

Fire is a natural process, and likely has been surpressed to the point of ill-health of the forests. I would suggest "selectively logging" "bug kill" forests, but not clear cutting them. The soil, and the brush, is home for many birds, and organisms, and needs to be preserved so the forest may come back in years to come, with good health. Clear cutting disrupts and thwarts the potential for this to exist in the future...

All good points you brought out "m".

I agree maestro... I am a member of the FA community, and support subsistance hunting done ethically and correctly. Trophy hunting is not hunting, but killing done, void of ethics imo.

Now put a spin on a few of the balls, and it will ensure a PP victory...mind you, the Minister will probably just change the rules anyways...;-D

Thanks for the chat,

Peace,

RTB

Basi, Verk trial in Vancouver court Sept. 18th, about time!
Maybe why Gordo left town?

Another non-Canadian company that has been outsourced by the government is Enterprise Techonology Services (ETS) of Phoenix, Arizona.

More of the of outsourcing our medical care information technology to corporations like Maximus crap.

And ETS will be opening up a branch in Victoria soon.
http://www.etechservices.com

The Van Sun today says thoes files for millions of Canadians have been lost?
My Ass the corporation that found them (huh) is none other than Maximus...Sad