And you think there is no connection between environmental destruction, decline in working standards etc and life? Typical naive neocon living in a fog of disconnection. "What me worry?"

Only some get to "get on with life". The rest, well death is just a cost of doing business, eh?

As long as it's somebody else's death.

Somebody else's kids orphaned, somebody else's grandkids impoverished, somebody else's future stolen.

We should be ashamed of ourselves. And Mr. Campbell still keeps claiming this robbery is 'prosperity'.

This article is all over the place, hotels, millionares (like a persons financial status matters here), safety etc. Logging in B.C. is a remarkably complex issue, usually boiled down by people to two points, logging bad or treehuggers fuk off. From everything I have read or understood about logging, I always come back to the wise prophetic words of H.R. Macmillan. He was The Man of forestry in this province, really was. He was the first chief forester of B.C., one of the leaders of reforestation and sustainable harvest. After the first tree farm licences were granted and the whole awarding process of them became mired in sleaze, ending with the minster of forests being sent to prison, there was a royal commission. Macmillan appeared before it and submitted recommendations. This was in 1955, he had a crystal ball, here is some of what he said. 6) That logs cut from forest management licences (f.m.l.s) if suitable for peelers or good fir or spruce sawmill logs shall not be used for pulp. 11) That the Forest Service prevent licensees (of the f.m.l.s) from logging the most profitable tracts more rapidly than the poorer. 16) That the licensee protect and replant at his cost, goverment forest for 90 years. they were all good, the last one 55) That export of unmanufactured forest products from B.C. is contrary to public interest and should be restricted.

Much of the damage done in the woods, is done by road building and the resulting errosion. Has anyone thought of bringing back the logging railway? Really, I'm serious. In Europe, forestry railways still survive, mainly because they are easier to maintain than roads.

Compare the lad take of a 6 metre logging road or 3 metres, for a metre guage logging railway.

Many of the problems we have in the forests, is the horrid way we harvest the forests.

Macmillan said more, "It will be a sorry day for British Columbians when the forest industry here consists chiefly of a very few big companies holding most of the good timber-or pretty near all of it-and good growing sites...." And this gem "B.C. will be a much more healthy place if we can keep these communities, and more like them, going, inhabited by people who are independently running thier own business , on no matter how small a scale" His words of advice were not taken, and that is part of the reason that we are where we are. The t.f.l.s are slowly being taken back and run by B.C. timber sales, on the open market, the way it should have been from the start. To little, too late. The export of raw logs is a travesty, timber cut here has to be milled here, it is ours and our jobs. This wood here is second growth? Anyone? I assume so because I don't see the words "old growth rainforest..." in the article. Nothing wrong with logging, as long as the jobs involved are all in B.C.

Grumpy, we had railroad logging in B.C. especially on Vancouver Island, before WW2. It was an absolute clearcut massacre show, with a huge yarders on the tracks and cold deck machines (little yarders) way up in the bush. They took a massive swath on either side of the tracks. All land that was railroad logged has grown back and much has been truck logged agian. The old pictures of rail logging are pretty cool to me, horrifying to some, I'm sure.

Interesting quotes from HR., Climber, Never read this before, gives me a different slant on the guy. Too bad his ideas weren't heeded. One other thing, I have spent some time in France and found that they have large forests and a lumber industry. This after logging for at least 3000 years! I found out one of the reasons for the sustainability. Forests are owned by 3 groups, the national government, the municipality and private owners. I would guess that the bulk is in the hands of the latter two. The tendency for municipalities and private owners is to take care of their forests and not hack them down indescrimately nor fail to replant.

The Alberni Valley is a microcosm of the level of thought that goes into resource extraction all over the world, and, increasingly, of the distribution of the benefits that derive from that extraction. The fact that we're dealing with private land removes a level of restraint from the manner of extraction, and seemingly allows operators to ignore the downstream consequences. The thinking is narrowly focused, short term, and particularly denies any connection to community, either in terms of damage to watershed or jobs involved in processing. "Getting on with our lives" as expressed above implies that there is something more important than husbanding what is turning out to be a more fragile web of life than we had originally thought, that making a living today is more important than ensuring that our children and grandchildren have a reasonable framework in which to live. The sad part is that if we were to give up a little now, there would be plenty for those who come after us. As it is, we will be leaving behind a degraded environment, a climate out of sunc with life as we know it, a lack of energy and water resources and so much toxicity in all parts of the environment as to engender widespread and chronic ill health. Then there is the affliction of spiritual and intellectual paucity that has caused a general acceptance of the current state of affairs....

MacMillan's key points are as valid now as when he asserted them in 1955. The death of community and the current state of employment in the industry is mute testimony to the fact that the government ignored him and his recommendations for the most part.

Ironically, HR did his share of high-grading before he saw the light.

pillage and plunder, the new era way!
then drive up to whistler in your merce-
dese are the globalized rules we play,
when corporations rule the day!!

gordo and cronies, their pockets they line.
scotch on the rocks on the taxpayer dime!
Build a new high-way and line it with slime!
-gated communities full of rich swine.

A full-on attack against the public domain,
the wealth of nations is ours to gain!
a new generation of zombies we'll train,
with media lackeys who drain on the brain!

great poem jj

lined with slime..ain`t that the truth.

I looked at the Westcoaster online, yes it is second growth, which means it has been logged before. So it can be logged again, funny how that happens. There should be no whole log export, true, mills in the area where the logging is taking place should get that wood to mill, true. Other than that, this article is hardly objective and puts all logging into a bad light. This "war in the woods" bullshit is appaling, enviromentalists disrupting loggers doing thier jobs because of thier beliefs. All logging in t.f.l.s and on privately owned land is legally allowed and permited, impeding that is against the law. No one is above the law, the rule of law is a hallmark of civilization. Any blockading of roads, people chaining themselves to equipment, should be dealt with severely. If that means cops marching in with pepper spray and swinging nightsticks, so be it. If you don't like it, protest peacefully and lawfully. Who the fuk made these treehuggers God?

climber ranted:

It comes down to ethical vs. moral principles. If one feels strongly enough that thier moral principles are being violated, then they need to go against the rules set out by society. Of course they will have to deal with societies consequences, but if enough people being to protest, the government loses the ability to say that it is representative.

I wont be there protesting, I do not feel strongly enough about the issue.

However, I do support those who wish to protect biodiversity and a clean environment for future generations.

Logging is necessary to sustain our economy, however, logging is not done in a sustainable manner if you take into account biodiversity.

I commend those who physically stand up against the Tim Ball's and Patrick Moores of the earth.

Biodiversity, ha, I hear that second growth has no biodiversity, again, on this site in fact. Alledgedly thats why we shouldn't log old growth. Sustainability, it has been logged before, it will be logged again, if that isn't sustainability what the fuk is?

Canfor still runs a logging railway on Northern Vancouver island. Sure in the 20's, 30's and 40's logging practices were dreadful. The same is true with logging roads today. The long term problem is land errosion along the righs-of-ways 9road and rail), with smaller land take of rail, chanced of errosion is less.

If it works in Europe, why not here?

Locals complained of soil and sediment damage to the fish-bearing Woodward Creek, a reported fish-kill at a small fish hatchery and five boil-water drinking-water advisories to the homes in the Beaufort Water Improvement District.

climber "No one is above the law, the rule of law is a hallmark of civilization."

Depends on whos writing the laws and to benefit whom

to protest the fact that much of the timber harvested in their region is being exported as raw logs to the United States.

early this year over problems with soil and siltation from the felled slope.

Sounds like theres a little more here than tree hugging and concern for bio-diversity climber...note the word "Locals"...you know..the people affected..the people who live there.

Jeez climber, I think I'll take back what I posted on a different thread. Your last couple of posts could rival ron erwin, logjam, maybelle, et al. for a lack of insight. This whole "nothing is above the law" crap is not a logical argument in favour of logging. That's a matter of opinion because I feel that the laws of nature outweigh the laws of society any day. Also when you propose that the police deal with protesters in a violent manner, do you suggest that all protesters be beaten – including the women and children?

No, drug off, straight to jail is good enough. Grumpy, the logging roads today go to patch clearcuts along thier way, no comparison to the massive clearcuts of yesterday. Railroads cost a lot more than roads to put in, the are restricted by grade, and more, maybe ok for a mainline but then there would be more unloading, offloading on the way to the sort.

I think that if we have a breakdown in the enforcement of law we as a society are in for a rough ride. This is pretty basic, imagine people protesting global warming blocking hwy 1 at 8am, are they to be left alone because the "laws of nature outwiegh the laws of society anyday". How about anti-abortion protesters stopping women from entering a clinic? Where does it stop? Who decides, like I asked earlier who the fuk made these treehuggers God? The people that want the logging to continue but the wood to go to a mill in thier area have my sympathy, but still.

climber again ranted,

Laws need to be challenged. Just because something "is law" does not make it right. Think about how people used "the law" to aquire property of Japanese who were interened during WWII. Some people sure benefieted from the law.

Too bad those who knew that was going on was morally wrong did nothing about it.

climber
To echo others on this question, this business of the rule of law is a problem simply because of the compromised nature or our democracy - before you trumpet the absolute power of the 'rule of law' you have to be willing to address the history, not only of the British/Canadian legal tradition but where the power to make and enforce those laws actually lies.

Trust me, it's not really with the people in any kind of an effective way - it's with power brokers who buy and finance the system. That's not the rule of law; it's the law of plutocracy. When you opt to support the concept as an ideal you can’t, once you’ve done the research and understand the background, do it without being a hypocrite, in my view.

That's the problem and that’s why the concept 'respect the law' doesn't mean anything much any more.

I guess to continue your line of logic climber: I guess that women's sufferage should never have happened, or universal sufferage for that matter because the laws said so. Or perhaps African Americans would still be attending different schools, or riding at the back of the bus because the laws said so. Who the fuk made the suffergettes God climber? Who the fuk made advocates of the civil rights movement God? I purposely avoid using these arguements in my previous post, but since you've gone there...

We are talking about logging, not women or blacks here. The law needs to be challenged, fine, thats what courts are for, ultimatly laws are changed by court decisions, in Canada anyways, end of the line, the supreme court. So is it ok with you to sit in your car all day because hwy 1 has been shut down? Is it ok for people to stop your g/f, daughter, friend, whatever from accesing an abortion clinic?, people have very strong feelings on these topics, laws are there to keep feelings from interfering with rights. Remember rights? The right to movement, abortion, even the right to log. It never ends, some people will not be happy until every logging machine out there is idle and the guys are jobless. So explain just how you pick and choose, please.

If we're talking about logging climber, why to you keep bringing up abortion?

Anyway, some people, IMO, probalby would like to shut all logging down - but I don't think that you can label all protesters with such a generality. Those of that opinion are hypocrits - in the same vein as the animal rights activist that approached me once while wearing leather birkenstocks. The pro-logging movement (and I'll call it that because you seem to think that logging is a right!!) is quick to label anyone who questions logging practices (whether old growth or second growth) under that umbrella. It's far too simplistic and ignores legitimate concerns for the ecosystem: loss of habitat, erosion of soils, etc.

climber
don't think I've ever posted anything that suggests my attitude is inimical to the needs and desires of ordinary working people to make a living.

Rights imply obligations and there has been more money spent on advertising and propaganda by the mining and forestry industry than there has been on remediation and reforestation; proper mine shut-down procedures and the effects of decades of waste and pollution – Trail and the Columbia River come to mind – as does Britannia.

In the 70s I saw what Doman was doing in the lower Dean Valley – to one of the world’s great Steelhead rivers – appalling. And that’s just one area I have personal knowledge of.

In every, repeat every case, these industries have to be dragged kicking and screaming to discharge their obligations to the commons from which they make their living. In many cases, if they’re actually forced to really pay what they should be paying, pfft! They’re gone – but the shareholders and insiders move on. And guys like you don’t have a job any more.

I know that's not your problem and you can't resolve it on your own. But, given the record of misappropriation and the tendency of corporate types to cut and run it isn't hard to see where protesters are coming from.

I had hoped the new management deal in the Clayoquot would be an better and more collegial approach - will it be?

I bring up abortion, which I support, because it is such an emotional issue, where logic and individual rights are often trampled. Now as far as logging being a right, when a company has a t.f.l. or buys timber from B.C. Timber sales or logs thier own land, they have a right to do it, do they not? Like a farmer can cut his hay, who are you to deny that right? Now this land in question was logged right to the ground years back, there is wildlife there now, and the erosion only started (alledgedly) after logging started for the second time, so maybe you can see why I call bullshit. I work in a big t.f.l. on the Charlottes, the difference between the huge old clearcuts and the new clearcuts is astounding. The old clearcuts are the size of Kitsilano, the new ones are dots in comparison. The old cuts went right over creeks, from the water to the top of the mountain. The new ones have big strips of trees left along creeks and riparian/wildlife zones that are as large as the cuts in a block. Mind you, that is a t.f.l. not private land. But I hardly expect you to acknowledge that logging has changed, at least I can say it wasn't all that good in the past enviromentally wise. Anyways, please tell me how you pick and chose what laws should be obeyed or not.

As usual I see both sides. Climber you are right, it still must be against the law and if the company gets an injunction from the courts the police will do their job and remove them.

At the same time people must have a voice if they think that regulation are not strong enough or are not being enforced. I don't think anyone here has a problem with peaceful dissent. That being said, I think laying across highway 1 is suicide not dissent. :-)

I also think that there is little argument here that forestry companies be aloud to log, but the key question is how. We have a long standing belief in Canada that nature is inexhaustable, despite being surrounded by proof of the contrary.

I'm on my way to meet a client - so this will have to be quick.

The difference hinges on the distinction between individual and collective rights and obligations and the concept of public property and public resources. Canfor and Teck Cominco exploit those 'public' resources...and that's where the problems start.
How do we measure and apportion the 'value' that the commons gets from that exploitation?

Gotta go.

As your own conscience dictates I guess.

I am officially tired of the left wing lunatics that post on this site. I can't even find amusement anymore.

It just baffles me - the world is passing you by.

Cappy/Maybelle.

This is news! I actually never found you that funny. Roll those dice.

Cappy
no surprise there, how could you find amusement when their are no suckers to fleece for big greedy profits Go back an hug your money and see if it hugs you back.

I don't think there are many left wing lunatics here, just people who are misinformed, for the most part but do make some good points. On this issue anyways, on some others there is more in depth analysis and reason here than anywhere else. In regards to logging, there is so much propaganda on both sides, mainly one, that the truth is elusive and evasive. There is no question that public opinion has shifted to the "anti" side, one only has to look to the shift over the last twenty years to see that. The loggers have gone from being seen as the backbone of B.C. to now being judged on the same level as seal hunters. The consolidation of forest company ownership has brought with it the results that H.R. MacMillan predicted so long ago. So we have communities hanging on decisions made in Toronto and Montreal, with the Americans continuing to scam with unfair trade, and well financed enviromental organizations doing there best to stick the knife in. And some First Nations claiming the land, causing uncertainty as well, how much worse can it get? And then the belief of some that laws can be broken, at will, depending on how someone feels about something. Along with the absolute disregard for jobs that sustain communities in rural B.C. by those who live in the cities. Of course mechanization has resulted in the biggest job losses, when people cause it, that really is a kick in the balls.

Officially! You were kidding all those other times when you stopped to stare admiringly?

Cappy, what does this mean?

Up till now you weren't tired of posting self-absorbed garbage every time you stopped by. Nothing: not reason, not logic, not fairness and equity made you realize the problem with the way you live. Just boredom!

Why did it take you so long to understand that the selfishness and corporate welfare fraud you practice like a religion are baffling to most of us here.

If you're really leaving (actually, I don't buy it) goodbye - make sure the guy with the gat doesn't catch you dealing from the bottom of the deck.

I feel sorry for the fact you don't appear to have learned a thing about what it takes to be a mensch after all.

Climber
Sensible post. We've all got a lot to learn and ordinary folks have to start waking up to what's really necessary if we're going to turn this sucker around.

The runaway lane may not be long enough!

My childhood and youth were spent on the prairies. I know exactly what you're talking about when you talk about dying communities; empty streets and hopeless angry people so bitter that they can't stand the sour taste in their own mouths.

Of course I know the other extreme too - the equal of capitalism/maybelle - the few big corporate farmers who, so far, think the system is ok and can't understand why the 80% of the population who are being screwed by the current state of affairs doesn't like it. They think the only problem is high taxation and can’t understand why the government just doesn’t get out of the road and let them rape an pillage to their hearts content.

We are close to creating a society which is the economic equal of the situation that obtained in the US from about 1890 to the start of the Great Depression – they called it the Gilded age – I’d give it a different name today but it’s the same sorta deal – it’s corporate welfare and tax fraud gone nuts and the politicians in our cities, provinces and capitals are the facilitators of these lies – folks who are somehow convinced that black is white and up is down.

It's time ordinary people of all stripes recognize the bastards have their hands in all of our pockets and start to do something about it. The protesters and the loggers need to realize what the real enemy looks like and where they live. It’s long past time that working people can pretend it doesn’t matter.

When I get home I'll post a little NPR link for you to listen to. It will open your eyes, I expect as to what the corporate culture really thinks of its clients and customers.

in the meantime, for soccer fans, this:
England (4) 4 Greece (0) 0

Steve McClaren had England supporters singing in the rain at Old Trafford last night, giving them belief in the future after the damp squib of the World Cup campaign. Owen Hargreaves was voted man of the match, but this was all about the manager of the match and McClaren left to a standing ovation. [Telegraph.]

This Capitalism is telling the truth, I think. It baffles him.

I met a thief once, a professional thief. We spoke about his life one evening. It was quite odd in a way. He thought the people he stole from were really stupid because they trusted him enough to give him a chance to rob them. As if the only important consideration was the oppornitunity. The possibility of making their money his. When it became possible, it became inevitable.

They were stupid to give him the chance, so he thought, and he would be stupid to pass up the opportunity without pocketing the goodies.

I heard later he was caught. He got ten years. It was some time ago, so he's probably out by now. Probably still an entrepreneur.

He couldn't conceive of his theft being bad for anybody because it brought him money, which must be good.

When I tried to make the point that by being what he was he created a world in which even he would have to live in the consequent environment of fear and mistrust, he just looked at me blankly. He was baffled too.

climber,
here's the link to the NPR show (in Real Audio) about Archer Daniels Midland. It's worth the time it takes to listen.

When it finally came time to negotiate the damages settlement with the company who do you think did the deed?

Our former PM, Brian Muldoon.

http://www.thislife.org/pages/descriptions/00/168.html

The "rule of law", huh? Simply and realistically put, they won't stop their raping and pillaging until their personal lives and well-being are threatened if they continue to do so. That is the only law they understand.....

G.West, thanks for the link, I only have dailup but I can imagine, ADM is one of a handfull of companies like Cargill, that control it all. I can investigate it further. RickW, who is the they you are talking about?, if its the loggers thier personal lives and livelihoods are already threatened, by people like you sound like. Using the word rape is so dramatic and bogus, it means sexual assault. Using this word here is like calling the office workers who died in 9/11 towers heroes.

Yeh, check it out climber - too bad you can't listen to it. One of the most interesting tapes contains a discussion between a group of corporate officials who describe what they actually think of their customers and clients - believe me, it's not pretty.

Trees grow back, if they are planted again.
I hope the Indians blockade these idiots.

Ron, you're into the sauce early tonight I see. Maybe you should actually read the posts before you jump into the discussion.

climber:

The CEO's and the people they use to make the law work for them.........

........those who never actually step into the forests they so control.

MacMillan had it right about local control.

Climber the notion that law is sacrosanct is a dangerous one. Every thing the Nazis did was "legal" and after Nurember "I was only follwing orders" does not apply. It, as someone else pointed out, depends upon who makes the laws. We should only have laws around which there is a pratical consensus, otherwise the law is used to impose someones ideology, fantasy or assuage their greed or power lust. Civil disobedience, as someone else also pointed out is part of the democratic process, and indeed, most of the progressive changes during the past 200 years have involved civil disobedience.

Trees grow back, even if they are not planted, but where did the Indians come from, oh, isn't that the last thing General Custer said "Where did all theses fuking Indians come from?" Finally some humor, thanks Ron.

Alc; It may be early for you.
I guess when the crack pipe is near the evening is endless.
The Indians in this area are all for selective logging.
I mean selective.
Enviro's were all for supporting the Indians decisions up until now.
Now the mainstream Enviro's are backing down from this so called Battle of the Forest.
How can they alienate First Nations People?
I am daily surprised at the stands that the left takes right now.
They seem to be an extremely extremeist, extreme entity.
They would side on anything than Western Democracy.
The left wanys Hugo Chavez ( Venezuela ) to take over Cuba.
Bring it on.

That should read "Nuremberg", this god damn miniscule type! Earlier Climber, you asked why logging companies should pay attention to environmentalists. Well, they are part of the community, and in a democracy all the members of the community have to have input. And remember, environmental consciousness is a virtual motherhood issue here. There are more enviros than loggers. You are one of the few people that I have encountered who is hostile to the movement, not to mention the science behind it - who is not some flaming right-winger. Part of the problem is, of course, that the issue of logging, the environment, the history and politics of logging, mining etc in BC are enormous book-length topics and all we can do in this forum is chip away at the edges. I think if we had several days, a library of reference books and several cases of beer we could probably find a common ground but I don't think there is much hope in a few hundred words.

Or maybe these treehuggers are following higher laws as Gods children. And while there are those like yourself who krinkle noses at work disruptions, it is peaceful and for the most part, lawful.

The third commandment: thall shall not murder. This commandment does extend beyond the animal kingdom to all life, large or small on earth, if anyone cares.

To kill unnecessarily... Do we really still need to make our houses out of wood? Trust me when I say it, the need for wood to build homes can be seriously challenged in today's technological age. Logging and the need to log is becoming old tech, supported by dated paradigms of what the last generation thinks we need to use in terms of construction material. Its time to change the paradigm. So much wood is being cut before its prime now...

Gods first two commandments (according to the last of the age of stone) supercede the third. They don't have anything to do with self worship, in case anyone is the least bit curious. And, just as money is the root of all evil, it is evil to worship one's self as though one was God. Maybe I'm a bit confused... why is money so important to you all? Capitalism? Care to comment? Climber?

Anyone who has ever travelled the west coast or has been lucky enough to hike its trail, knows the true value in something pristine, untouched, virgin and natural. This value goes beyond dollar signs, making the experience, for anyone who has experienced it, invaluable.

There is more money to be made in future tourism than there is in the harvest of wood that, as has been aptly mentioned, keeps the top soils from washing away. And once that top soil is gone, guess what. It's gone! It's a little difficult to plant trees in rock. Who wants to come and see a large chunk of rock? Ever see cutblocks slide from erosion? Not a pretty site.

Both sides of this issue have given their own selves, black eyes. Both sides have broken the principle, two wrongs do not make a right. Logging for jobs isn't justification enough to destroy parts of the environment. And just to put it into perspective, well over 40% of BC's harvestable wood is now cutblocks. Some say these percentages are higher. Anyone who can earthgoogle.com can see it for themselves. The current levels of logging in BC are unsubstainable. And does this give the environmentalist the right to become eco terrorists? Two wrongs don't make a right. The bottom line is... the time has come for change and if we don't change our ways, our ways will be changed for us and it won't be pretty or nice. Take a look at a cutblock and tell me it was ever pretty or nice to begin with.

So some guy from Sask. ( is is it David Orchard ) wants to tell us how to run things.
Why would we listen to a socialist from Sask.?

Its interesting, the phenomenom of how people will support each other in their own wrong doings. Birds of a feather really do flock together. Cigarette smokers look for their own to light up and converse with. So do the drunks. And the crackheads. And those who gamble. And sexually swing. Same goes with the corporate elite, and the theives of a lower brand. And they all justify their misdoings with the same old same O. "Everyone else is doing it!"

And then one enters their circle who does not and is soundly reminded to conform or else. In the cases of second hand smoke, presence is considered conformity enough... until the individual speaks. And if that individual should walk on fire... and be impeccable in will and action... percecution is sure and swift... except for one thing. Not everyone is from the same feather. Not everyone is where they are supposed to be. Is it worth it to take such efforts to help those who are lost find their way?

For a few, it is their destiny. For the many, destiny will not find them.

Duncan, whatever you use is from resource extraction, some construction more so than others. I used to be a framer, I like wood, especially big structural wood. I used to biuld concrete forms, they are wood, or steel and wood, it all comes from somewhere. About money, I need it to live, it could be barter, food, gas and housing etc. in exchange for work but thats not the way it is. About old growth, I work in it all the time, its nice, yes. There are landslides in nature and man made landslides, not to many now because of new road biulding rules. In any case they never were more than a miniscule percentage of logged land, to suggest that logging means the land is stripped of soil is irresponsible and wrong. The tourism revenues and low wage jobs involved in it are a pittance of the revenues and high paying jobs logging provides. That logging jobs can be replaced by tourism is a myth, a pipe dream. You say that now 40% of BCs available wood is in cutblocks, I take that to mean second growth. Could it be that this is because so much has been taken out of the timber supply areas, every new park, the so called great bear rainforest, part of Moresby Island, the Stien and so on and fukin on? Now, about cutblocks, spent much of my life in them, seen them before they were logged, seen them after, spaced new trees growing in them after, bucked in blocks that were logged many years before we logged them again. Yes they look good, then not so good, then as time goes by they look good again, is that alright?

As I said before, Ron, you didn't read the comments...and apparently you still haven't.

IMAC:
Normally, I just glaze over your posts, with you having demonstrated nothing more than the knowledge of how to read and type (of which you read, I'm sure, very little). But since you addressed me, I can only say that I don't see things in terms of left or right in a political sense, but one of "common" sense which in itself, isn't all that common these days. To me, its either functional or dysfunctional.

Other than your own fallacies ability to flush out the truth from those in the know (as fallacies and b.s. truly deserve their counter), your posts offer nothing in the way of contributing towards a better thread on, well, pretty much anything! Thats how it is, when people live in a world of pretend.

As for my political leanings, I, like everyone else here on the tyee, must correct you. Again (yawn). I am a theocratical socialist statist capitalist who knows full well what I own and do not. God and the state do not own my toothbrush (a few types of bacteria might live there and call it their own from time to time, but only if I allow it). All else is on loan to me as a steward. I do not do with the lands I look after as I see fit, but as the universe wills, with excellent intent. I farm organically.

I have planted over a million tree's all in B.C., most of them in rough ground. I have seen the Charlotte's for four seasons, the islands for 5 more, the interior for 17, the majority of them in the Revelstoke, Blue River rainbelt. I have seen with my eyes, what people in the cities can only dream of. I have seen logging and the devastation of their practices that is at this point, actually making me quite sad, not so much so because I have seen its beauty, but have also seen its devastation in the furthest back woods of virgin watersheds. If there is one voice here to tell it like it is and isn't, through my own personal experiences alone, its me.

I am the son of a farmer, one who took off farm income from BC for 17 years, lived there for 11 of them, found lovers there, had children there. My experiences in BC give me reasons enough to post here.

But what if I wasn't a resident of BC, or Canada? Or North America? Or part capitalist? I am of this earth, am I not? Doesn't this give me the right to be "social"? And on that note, being human is reason enough to not have to justify or explain anything more to you, other than with this statement:

"Justice will come for us all."

Don't let Ron/IAMC trouble you at all Duncan. He's just trying his best to fit in here and it just isn't working!

Cheers.

climber:
Nice to see you are still up, and I do appreciate your feedback for a positive discussion.

You and I both know that the need to build houses with wood is moot and while building resources have to come from somewhere, it is most assuredly not to the expense of life or even life potential, and most importantly, the reduction of CO2 gases. You won't get anywhere with me on this one.

Since you are involved with bush work, you must also know that erosion isn't caused so much by roads or skidder trails, as it is by heavy rainfall washing away soil on steeper slopes with disturbed forest floors with no canopy to stop it from happening.

And, as I have said before, its hard to plant trees in washed out blocks. Once the soil moves downslope, the potential for good timber to grow back topside, is gone. So while a case can be made for roadbuilding causing erosion, a far greater case can be made for select logging over clearcuts. The natives are right. Select is the way to go with this since select allows for cutting trees that are past its prime instead of before and even during, while leaving a partial canopy to keep erosion in check. Ironically, the small scale select logging with horses is the most environmental of all, as it disturbs the forest floors the least.

Forest reforestation practices have changed dramatically from what they once were, with most changes coming because they were simply needed. Current practices recognize several things that were never before addressed:

- Early plantation of logged blocks. This counters erosion with the early estabishment of new trees, combined with the costs of reforestation being more squarely put on the logging company as opposed to the ministry which inherits a bankrupt mess after the profits go south of the border.

- species selection and site selections of trees planted. While standards are still somewhat lax (usually because of the amounts or lack of experience required by treeplanters, foreman and contractors) in terms of what goes where, survival is pivotal to plantation success from all perspectives.

- creek canopies are undisturbed. Unfortunately, they still get logged in places. Its just how it is.

More changes are needed. As global warming continues, the previous block layouts promoted primarily by greed or "creaming the valuable wood" has superceded the risks of the spread of forest fires. We are currently decades away from tackling this issue. Select logging and clearcutting for fireguards need to be seriously looked at in this province as fire seasons like 2003 are likely to repeat themselves, this time, in less concentrated populated areas.

Finally, the easy wood is gone. Its been creamed. Most of the logging in the future is of a steeper, harder terrain farther in the back 40. As a result, there are more and more heli blocks than ever before and these blocks should be looked at with a different set of eyes in terms of how they should be logged and reforested. I strongly urge you to google earth and see the back 40 for yourself, if you have a comp over 650 mhz. I also strongly urge you to think about the future of logging, not so much what has been logged, (valley basins, gentle slopes) but what is about to be logged (whats left, steeper slopes, tough access) and tell me if you can see whats coming... its spelled "erosion".

Once soil has washed, its gone. All it takes is for it to happen once. And while humans can at best mimick what mother nature has done in terms of building a forest, it is not the same. I've been in in the business long enough to know all of the reasons why. Another time, gotta get some sleep.

you talk a tough talk iamc.
maybe you and I could meet up and talk sometime.
What do you think?

This article hammers away at last years dismal safety record and some things should be said to put it into its proper perspective.

Last year was a busy year for the logging industry, a fact that does drive up the risks of injury and fatalities. But what isn't being said about the level of logging activity in 2005, is where this logging was occuring. As well, logging truck accidents that were previously listed as trucking accidents are now listed as logging accidents, driving up logging fatality and injury statistics.

As I've said before, the easy wood is gone in the mountainous regions of the province. What is left is steeper terrain with harder access. The roads into the cutblocks are getting longer. There are more and more heli blocks than ever before. All of this equates to more danger and risk of injury and death to those in the logging industry. Combine this with strong demand, and we have what we had in 2005.

So while it is wise to ask, "is the government actually governing? What happened to the regulations and their enforcement?" It is also wise to look at the current variables and scenerios mentioned that are contributing to higher statistics.

Aside from this, the article points out some key truths that reveal the shortcomings of this current corrupt Liberal government in BC.

- Allowing unsustainable harvests in various parts of the province such as the beetle-struck Interior.
- Letting the industry leave unnecessarily large amounts of waste on the ground.
- Starving some areas such as Port Alberni and Port Alice for fibre for their sawmills.
- Opening the border to the shipment of enormous and escalating quantities of raw logs aboard.
- Bringing in a new logging-plan approvals system that virtually removes any public scrutiny of forest development plans and denies public accountability.

These last three points show the true failings of this government.

And finally... to the environmentalists out there, who is more responsible for the destruction of the environment... the logging company owners and CEO's of public companies? The major shareholders? The guy running the chainsaw to feed his family? Or the housing contractors and the residential new home buyers who think everything must be built from wood. Who's responsible for global warming? The CEO's and major shareholders of public oil companies? The operators of refineries and gas and compressor plants? Or the ones who put gas and diesel in their tanks...

Ultimately, we are all responsible, producers and consumers alike which is why I say there needs to be a complete shift in consciousness on what the alternatives are... and they are there! But at this point, we have governments, business people, and consumers alike that are blind to what they are, blind from greed and mere convienience and complacent lack of imagination. Sure, its top down, but its also bottom up!
Everyone is responsible for the environment, whether they are willing to be responsible or not.

If the world adopted North Americas energy and housing practices, there would not be a tree standing, or a drop of oil left in 50 years. (maybe 20) We in Canada are a wasteful, decadent servant to an empire on the edge of collapse. Hardly an example for the world to follow... but it can change! Our survival and the survival of all life now depends on it.

Powerful message Duncan! I am REALLY glad you are back!

Right on Duncan! You tell it like it is.

Speaking of wars in the woods, I see Rick Coleman has just announced that BC is onside again in the Emerson softwood capitulation.

Duncan, good to see someone who actually knows about logging. You made some good points, I believe I did as well. My job is climbing trees on the edge of cutblocks and topping them so they don't blow over into the creeks. This is a pretty new method, it came about because of the much smaller cutblocks and the leaving of big riparian zones and strips along creeks, in the past, all this would have been logged, as you know. Also spur roads across sidehills are taken right out, not just culverts, but the road bed and the slope is put back. The big spurs and even some mainlines are being "deactivated", this is code for taking out the culverts and digging huge ditches so the water can flow without building up and washing out the road and what lies below one year. Over the next few years the roads are made impassable to traffic. You are right about trees being planted quickly, here they naturally regenerate very quickly, but the cedars have to planted and protected with a plastic shield or the deer (introduced) eat them. You are also right about the easy wood being mostly gone and the stump to dump being farther and farther, meaning longer trips for everyone, more driving, more risk. This also drives up the cost and pressure for production. Most of the coast is just not suited for selective, access, steepness, safety etc. rule it out, most of the interior, yes. Heli logging has its own problems, there is also standing stem heli logging, which you may not be familar with. This involves trees being climbed, stripped of branches and topped, then the helicopter plucks them out after the butt is almost completely severed. This is hardcore highgrading (only the best $ wood is taken), but selective nontheless. Earlier in this talk I quoted H.R. MacMillan and his predictions, I am all for logging as you can tell but I feel also that the control has to return to the communities. This means of course taking back the t.f.l.s and it would be nice to see a big, big shakeup at the Min. of Forests.

Why does it take twice as much space (or more), and therefore building materials including wood, for the average family home compared to a generation ago when the average family size is decreasing?????
On sixty minutes a few weeks ago one story was about a recent trend in affluent texas where people are competing with each other to built the largest and most ostentatious mansions.
10000 square feet and much larger for two people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yeeeeeeeehhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now that's texas sized!!
I guess when you believe the rapture is coming (or whatever it's called) who cares about things like sustainability or conservation.
Or maybe some people are just ignorant, suicidal a$$wholes!

G. West, did you see yesterday's Globe & Mail which says there's a new WTO ruling which is "a big one, right up there among the most important for Canada ... [and] the impact should be very long lasting." I haven't found a mention of it in the B.C. papers.

But I nearly fell off the couch last evening when the news did report, for god's sake, that Premier Campbell had capitulated. Why?!

Why in the world did Campbell rush in, to give it away? Don't miss the photo in the Times Colonist today, in which Premier Campbell, with Rich Coleman at his side, makes the announcement, both men looking scared out of their wits, all 4 eyes out on sticks.

Something fishy here.

BC Mary
Is it this story - it's dated August 15 but too late for the paper on the 16th:

Canada wins WTO softwood appeal
Canadian Press

VANCOUVER — Canada has won another round in the legal wrangling over U.S. softwood lumber duties, this time before the World Trade Organization.

A WTO appeal panel released a decision Tuesday overturning an earlier ruling that upheld the U.S. Commerce Department's right to use a method called zeroing in determining anti-dumping duties levied on Canadian lumber imports.

Canada argued the U.S. use of zeroing artificially inflated anti-dumping rates by tossing out transactions that showed Canadian lumber selling above domestic prices.

Canada won its argument initially but the WTO sided with the Americans in an appeal last May. Now the world body has reversed itself again and ruled the practice of zeroing is inconsistent with U.S. obligations under WTO agreements.

Related to this article
Latest Comments
Big Deal. The US will just ignore the ruling as it does any ruling...
I don't see how this latest ruling will affect anything. Americans...
66 reader comments | Comments closed
Anti-dumping duties currently comprise less than two per cent of the roughly 12 per cent in punitive tariffs being imposed on Canadian lumber at the U.S. border — the rest comes from countervailing duties aimed at offsetting alleged subsidies to Canadian lumber exports.

The combined duties, which were set in 2002 at about 27.2 per cent, are subject to an annual review by the Commerce Department.

The American lumber industry, which crowed when the WTO upheld the U.S. position in May, dismissed the impact of Tuesday's ruling.

“This is just another example of WTO over-reaching,” said Steve Swanson, chairman of the U.S. Coalition for Fair Lumber Imports, the Washington lobby group whose trade complaint triggered the duties.

“Zeroing was a common practice when the current WTO rules were put into place, and there is nothing in those rules that forbids it.”

Swanson said zeroing ensures that dumping of particular products is not masked or diluted by the absence of dumping of other products.

“The U.S. courts have approved Commerce's zeroing approach, so Commerce would not be expected to change its practice,” he said.

Canada and the United States have battled before WTO and North American Free Trade Agreement panels over softwood duties since 2001.

Canada has won the lion's share of decisions, though the WTO has often sided with the Americans. However, Canada has leaned more heavily on NAFTA rulings because under the agreement they have the force of domestic law.

All those decisions essentially would be set aside if the Canada-U.S. Softwood Lumber Agreement initialled July 1 is implemented. It replaces U.S. duties with a Canadian border tax and export quota system.

Critics of the deal have argued Canada will throw away five years of legal victories if it signs on.

Canadian lumber exporters have paid more than $5-billion (U.S.) in duties since they were confirmed in May 2002. Under the softwood agreement, they would get back 80 per cent of the money.

"I feel also that the control has to return to the communities. This means of course taking back the t.f.l.s and it would be nice to see a big, big shakeup at the Min. of Forests."

Right on, too, Climber!

Sorry Mary, here it is:
http://www.globeinvestor.com/servlet/story/GAM.20060816.RSOFTWOOD16/GIStory/

by Simon Tuck. Maybe the yanks were dismayed by the ruling too and threatened to yank the deal before the Aug 21 deadline if the provinces didn't get onside.

There's been a lot of action going down in Victoria all week!

Just a final word from me. I spent the first 20 years of my life growing up in logging towns on Vancouver Island. Back in those days (1950's) the it was the coolest thing to be a logger. So I am not anti-logger or anti-lumber industry. I tend, like some others here, to fall on both sides of the issue. While it is true, that some enviros are upper-class urban types who know nothing about the woods, and have some silly ideas, there are also scientists – ecologists, botanists, etc who do know something. Furthermore there are working class enviros. I do know Green loggers. I think the timber companies like it when workers quarrel with enviros. The timber industry, like mining and fishing grew out of a kind of savage “plunder-the-resources-as-fast-as-possible-and-the-consequences-be-damned” robber baron capitalism. I think this sentiment is not entirely absent. Hopefully some sort of compromise can be reached whereby we can log in an environmentally sane way. A good start is local control as Climber says. In terms of activism, the environmental syndicalism of the late Judi Bari would be the best example. Before she was blown up by a timber company set bomb she had succeeded in uniting loggers and enviros. Please read about her at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judi_Bari

She died of breast cancer, according to the link you provided. She was an earth-firster. Earth firsters are preservationists x 10, not into compromise, no regard for loggers or mill workers, the original tree spikers, thats why sawmills have metal detector shutoffs on the saws.

Evidently you didn't read the article very well or check the the links. She was against spiking and was a union organizer and a member of the IWW. Read the IWW eulogy. I know she died of cancer, but she almost died because of the bomb which was undoubtedly the work of the timber companies.

In caser you won't here is a quote from the IWW obit, "She led Earth First! in her region to embrace the use of nonviolent direct action and to renounce the use of tree-spiking, or any other tactic that could lead to injuries to timber and mill workers. Coming from a labor organizing background, she was quick to point out that it was not the workers but the giant corporations who should be the target of environmental reformers."

"Many think it was her efforts to build alliances between timber workers and environmentalists -- and her demand for seizure of corporate property -- that brought her to the attention of timber company executives and made her the target of efforts to smear and discredit Earth First!."

"We've never said no to logging. We just want sustainable logging."

Bari continued her labor activism when she joined an effort to support workers doused with toxic PCBs in a 1989 Georgia-Pacific sawmill accident in Fort Bragg, California. The company told the workers and the press the spill was just mineral oil, but testing showed it was laden with PCBs. Bari helped others organize the injured workers into Local #1 of the Industrial Workers of the World (I.W.W. or Wobblies) and gave technical support for their successful case in U.S. Labor Court.

"In October, 1989, Bari wrote an article for the "Industrial Worker" newspaper in which she argued that the time was ripe for the Wobblies to organize among timber workers."

Judi Bari is the very example of where both labor and the environmental movement should be. Together against the corporations and for new, sustainable, communitarian industrial practices.

I'm sorry, when I saw she died from cancer I called BS and stopped looking. I'll check it out again.

I get a kick out of G West and his opposition to the softwood lumber proposal for solution.
Bring it on bud, if the CPC decide that the ratification by Parliament becomes a confidence vote, it's defeat could trigger an election this fall.
Does G West really want his Liberal Party to have to go through this in the shape they are in.
No philosophy, no leader, no credibility, no nothin.
Let's go there, I am all for it.

Ron, Where have I ever said I was a Liberal party supporter?

You are such an idiot...You like giving more money to the theiving Americans I guess.

Well G, I guess you disavowed yourself from the Liberal Party.
That's a good thing.
So I guess you must support the 16% NDP Party.
Go for it buddy.

I have no political affiliation Ron. Unlike you, I think for myself and don't spout anyone's party line.

Gee G,
You appear liberal to me. And I must appear conservative to you.
I am proud to be conservative.
You must be ashamed to be a lib.
I don't blame you.

No Ron, you are no conservative. In fact, I don't think you have a clue what a real conservative actually believes.

As I have pointed out at least 10 times in the Tyee, you are no conservative, Ron. Conservatives have principles. You are a Neocon - an unprincipled glorifier of war, greed and power lust.

IMAC has a real bonafide superiority complex, hey what? He probably isn't even a party member, just cheers from a computer in a basement. Sad.

And I'm not so sure conservatives really do have principles, persay. If Harper personifies principles, then its ok to watch Canadians die in Lebanon and Afganistan and call it all a "measured response". Shrub would have spent 20 billion in the military early on back in 2002 in support for Bush's claims that Saddam had WMD's, lest we forget. He took on crooked Canfor overcutting Emerson and his 7 directorships. He appointed an unelected party organizer into cabinet. "Shrub" smells to high heaven with corruption and racism and his appeal is to the same. Anyone with "principles" can see that Harper is lost when it comes to whats best for Canada on pretty much all levels.

Getting back to the article, some good points have been made. While communities are for the most part the most responsible as they have to make the bed they lie in, its still no guarantee that they will make that bed. At some point, governments still have to govern, points that climber has early on adressed with Macmillans recommendations. Sadly, we'll have to wait for the Campbell government to move on before it happens.

Nice to hear from you, ohmygawd, G West, anarcho, climber, jesterjogger, good feedback on the issues for the most part.

Climber, I've heard of standing stem logging this summer through a conversation with a DSF heli logger at a fire this summer. Its new, although I've thought about the same process, I must confess, 10 years ago. I like the idea as it is select and does not disturb the forest floor, minimizing waste as well. But it is definitely more dangerous for the workers. Time will tell with the safety record of that one. All in all, heli logging is in my opinion, the most hardcore form of logging there is. If the pro's can't do it at this level, It would be safe to say that it can't be done. So far, they are managing.

As you've mentioned, cedar is the toughest tree to establish, and also the toughest tree to log. This is due mainly to the hollow centers at the butt that cedars often possess, sometimes making it a nightmare for even some of the best fallers to bring down. Aside from this, I do believe logging has its place in this world.

When a tree is past its prime or dead, its fair game to harvest and take. Note, for example, how many lodgepole pine are dead or dying from blight and pine beetles, with a 1 to 5% density in many areas in the south. I have no qualms with taking this wood to process. Its the juvenille trees, the trees that are cut before their prime, that I have issues with. And too, clear cuts that knowingly accelerate erosion and cause slides are a major problem with me. I can't say I'm entirely against clearcuts either... a few forests are just plain uniformly too old to leave standing as they do become major threats from fire and disease and pests. But this is not a common scenerio. The common scenerio is trees being cut before their time and in this case, its a lose lose for everyone. Anyways, its late, the fields should be dry enough to make some rounds tomarrow... night all.

Thanks for that. Harper's no conservative either. Anarcho posted an interesting link yesterday to Orion magazine; don't know if you saw it. Article by Wendell Berry - see what you think.
How are the crops?
Pretty sensible I thought.

Later.

http://www.oriononline.org/pages/om/archive_om/Berry/Local_EconomyPR.html

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/061306P.shtml

First rate article, jesterjogger! It really lays out the difference between genuine conservatives and the new breed who are basically amoral creeps. Some of you may wonder why a far leftist like me goes on about the virtues of genuine conservatism. As a young teenager I supported the Diefenbaker Conservatives. I did so because of Dief's concern about rights and freedoms, the poor and his desire to maintain our soverignty. In other words a politics based upon a strong ethical stance. These ethics have formed the basis of my life-long activism, even though I long ago abandoned Conservatism for the NDP, then the New Left and then ended up with anarchism. But the core values, that I picked up from old-fashioned conservatism are still there.

A lot of people forget that it was Diefenbaker who called for and set up the Carter Royal Commission on Taxation too.

It didn't report until after the PCs had been voted out of office but if the reforms Kenneth Carter recommended had been enacted this would be a far different country than it is today.

I have to think back to the Pearson days myself, for a Con government that knew or had the semblance of governing.

Excellent links, G West, anarcho.

Crops are sub par and short this year. Way to much heat and no rain in July. Anyone who continuous cropped their farms or planted stubble are losing money from poor yeilds and fertilizer inputs that burned their crops for lack of rain. Lower yields combined with low prices, has some faces looking long. Should be some cheap auction sales next year. (there were a few bargain auctions this year as well)

All in all, its next year country with people hanging on.

But you can still get a 16 oz loaf of white bread, baked in store - not the sliced white pulp from Westons - here in urban BC for about a dollar. We pay far too little for our food.

Next year country! - that's about the only thing that never changes, eh? Even the Riders suck this season.

Guess you've read Wolf Willow eh? Being from East End and all.

So Harper's not a conservative?
Okay, I guess that means you all love him now that he is socialist? liberal?
The scrambling around of the left never ceases to amaze me.
He is conservative. And I see right through the neo-con word. It's way for the left to divide conservatives. Make them ashamed to be called a neo-con.
I guess conservatives could call some of you neo-lib, neo communist, neo-dickhead.
It's not working. Nobody on the street ever heard the word neo-con.
What a joke this campaign is.

Ron, baby, you have to read the material.

You have to try to understand.

Harper is just like you; a true believer - all neo conservatives are. They think they hold the keys to the kingdom and that's why they are so dangerous. That's why they think it's smart and necessary to divide society into groups so they can pander to one and victimize another. In truth, they have contempt for anyone who doesn't share their prejudices. While a real conservative recognizes the value and utility of the market, only a neocon would adopt a market solution without first assessing the social costs that attend it – real conservatives learn this from Adam Smith – not a caricature of Adam Smith such as what the Fraser Institute bows down to worship.

Real conservatives are concerned with preservation, continuity and careful mediated change. They recognize the value of shared experience and they try to build bridges between communities. They don't resort to childish name calling when they are frustrated and they are willing to work with others to effect positive change or to preserve what is valuable from the past.

Real conservatives acknowledge the vital and continuing role of the government as a force for good in society – neo conservatives think all government is bad and begrudge every penny of the taxes they pay.

Real conservatives understand the value and the nature of community and recognize that government has a role in preserving and strengthening it. They are not totally enamored with the idea of always promoting the individual. They see the value of tradition and custom and work to preserve those things as well as protect the environment.

Real conservatives understand that they govern for ‘all’ the people and not just their small group of friends and fellow travellers.

I could write more, but I’m not going to bother because I doubt you’d take the time to read it before you started posting your usual hatred and intolerance.

Sorry Ron, unless you show some sign of actually reading and paying attention I think you’re probably not worth my efforts.

I'm afraid you are the joke.

G You have learned well. Thanks for promoting conservatism in your own way.
It's truly touching.

Ron.
I'm not promoting anything but the truth. I attack lies whenever I see them - I have no other agenda than that.

I'll discuss anything with anyone - as long as they don't talk nonsense and spew hate.

G West:

Sounds a lot like Charlton Heston, er, I mean Moses in the Wilderness................

Aug. 17 2006
This is our so called elected officials working for us?
Jim P's yacht with bush 1, bush 2, Glen Clark etc?
I smell greedy rats!

http://www.publiceyeonline.com/archives/2006_08.html
Rockets red glare
Forests and Range Minister Rich Coleman has long had a reputation for being one of the biggest wheels in the provincial Liberal's fundraising machine. But Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon seems to have become quite a big cog himself. Earlier this month, the Surrey-Cloverdale MLA held a fundraiser aboard Concord Pacific Group Inc. president Terry Hui's yatch The Azure - which became a front row seat at the Celebration of Light. The ticket price for those attending the August 2 event: $3,000. About 40 people were onboard the boat - although it's unclear how many of them received complimentary invites.

Posted by Sean Holman at 09:28 AM
Permanent link | Comments: (15)

How/Why are We the taxpayer, putting up with this Bull? Try this new site http://www.iwtnews.com/home
OUR children's, Grandchildren's future depends on US!
Not a Fatalist but A Realist thank you all!

BC Dude, explain what is wrong, is this going to be a repeat of the Sommers scandal or is it just talk?

Yeah exactly what was knuckles falcone doing on that yacht anyway!!
(we go re hawd lon time!)
concord pacific hey?
Maybe falcone is going to rubberstamp another taxpayer funded highway mega-project of no public utility to allow big, greedy developers to gentrify former mill towns into luxury condo nightmares. (for mercedes driving, sweat shop owning, disident organ harvesting, official bribing, jibberish chattering, river polluting, animal torturing guests of new era BC!)
P.S. - hey climber yap, yap, yap

J.J. Who knows what he was doing on that yacht, maybe he was doing lines in the can and his develper buddies were setting him up with whores, so fuking what? Jesus H. You could at least post something with some meat. I do not like what the liberals have done to the vulnerable people in B.C. It is bullshit, unexcusable. Don't think I worship them. When I get up in the morning and hear and see the gong show that is traffic in Vancouver I laugh. And I wonder what the NDP would have done about it, nothing, and then there is mining, that the NDP pretty well tried to destroy. And the funniest, the bug killed wood is being harvested in an "unsustainble" manner (NDP guy, this article) the trees are dead, what the fuk do they want? What? Its going to burn or rot, providing nothing to nobody, how bizarre and strange, logging it is like cooking meat or drinking milk before its due date.

IAMC:

Harper is a Conservative? That western separatist, National Citizen Coalition U.S. sponsored phycopath? C'mon. Where have you been concerning U.S. foreign policy anyways? Anyone with a brain knows that U.S. foreign policy is to take weaker nations who won't be bought or sell out, to try a coup on them and if it doesn't work, take 'em to war and then try a coup. Why, they are doing it here with Harper! What, you think the U.S. is in Iraq and Canada is in Afganistan for "moral values"? C'mon. Think for the first time in your life!

Whats left of Canada that the U.S. doesn't own, is essential services and GAT talks are going on to fast track the sale. The U.S. needs morally and intellectually bankrupt individuals to pull it off, enter Stephen Harper.

What is this war mongers latest egotistical statement? "We'll take any country to war that disputes our Northern borders." What hot air. What Bull. Real leaders use things like diplomacy, allies and sanctions, beating their chests as a last resort. Shrub just rolls right along, leading Nato into Afganistan, all so the U.S. can steamroll into Iran on two fronts, cause Iran isn't a bunch of pansy assed sellouts like ourselves.

Its just a long line of crap that makes me believe our country is better off with Harper dead than alive. Too bad I happen to be a good person, instead of your ever lovin war mongering hero thats left us 17 dead Canadians this month alone. And we've got 10 days to go!

Anyone who supports Harper is clueless, stupid, or morally bankrupt. We've had the time to check him out. You know, the little things like the NCC's website for what Harper is all about, since he was prez of this organization from 97 to 2001 for 5 years. morefreedom.org

This site has dumbed down its blatant racism and privatization of anything that shouldn't be in U.S. corporate hands. The NCC has been around since the 60's. Anyone who knows of this U.S. corporate oil sponsored organization is either extremely fearful and leary of Harper, or a yankee redneck biggot just like him.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least, why you like him so. Hitler had his supporters too.

And for all of Harpers tough macho talk, where peacekeeping troops are needed the worst in this world at the moment is on the Israeli/Lebanon border, along with the Congo. When it comes to war, its all a "measured response" and when it comes to peace, he's nutless and gutless. He's become an international embarrassment if you would just open up your friggin eyes. (what a moron)

You still have that little memo from a few months ago dude?

If you've lost it, let me know if you need to locate it again.

BC libs & Harpo's gutless MPs are one & the same cut. Break-Up Canada for usa bullies!
They have sold their soul for their ill gotten power & material goods.
I am buying local and not a consummer of boys toys Big screen, Ipods, etc. The Tyee is my homepage and http://www.iwtnews.com/home is my new source of TRUTH!
President Cheney & VP Bush, "Hail Ceasar" NOT

Not too long ago the slimy bc libs threw a big party for the visiting federal conservative caucus!!!!
And when the federal liberals all came to town they got the cold shoulder.
i.e. - no big taxpayer funded, glen fiddick drinking, god knows what else party.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
"An uproar of voices was coming from the (Empress ballroom). They rushed back and looked through the window again. Yes, a violent quarrel was in progress. There were shoutings, banging on the table, sharp suspicious glances, furious denials. The source of the trouble appeared to be that (Gordo) and (Harpo) had each played the ace of spades simultaneously.

(Many) voices were shouting in anger, and they were all alike.
No question, now, what had happened to the faces of the pigs.
The (people) outside looked from pig to man*, and from man* to pig, and from pig to man* again; but it was already impossible to say which was which."

Animal farm is about communism J.J., thats why its release was held back, so Uncle Joe wouldn't be offended. Wrong choice.

The Harpo government(?) are the most immature ,cluelss bunch of A-holes ever to try and operate the best country on the planet.
I hope and pray the industry does support the stupid SLD as that will be the end of the neo-cons for ever and ever .
Quebec may have backed this insane deal only to suck the mron further into the electoral abyss that he has created .
What a phuquing idiot !

Was it about the inherent flaws of just communism or how the noblest intentions of any social organizing principal can be subverted the by corrupt and greedy individuals who always seem to claw their way to power?
The founding fathers who devised the us constitution had this in mind but not even their foresight could stop the current gang of thieves and murderers from making a mockery of their best intentions.
You seem to be very well informed, how do you feel about the softwood deal?

Rona 'Bunny' Ambrose up to her old tricks .
Telling everyone who will listen that they have a plan for endangered species .
Yea, let them go extinct that'll do the trick .
She gives idiot's evertwhere a bad name .

Can't wait to see the backend of these fools and their master Stevey .

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20040303/spotted_owl040303?s_name=&no_ads=

More on the endangered spotted owl that the neo-cons have refused to protect .
What is the point of having a Minister of the Enviornment when they don't even know what the word means ?

hannibal said: "More on the endangered spotted owl that the neo-cons have refused to protect".

Hey hannibal...How's it goin' dude??

On the Spotted Owl issue, pathetic eh?

Gov\Industry spend all our money for research on the impact of industry on the spotted owl, and then they pay the same people to shut up about it...$$$$$

Not so unlike the issue of Alberta's elusive Mountain Caribou, specifically the Porcipine Herd around Hinton, where Suncor has a pipeline running right down the center of their habitat, and another major oil co. just bought the drilling rights on much of the remainder of their habitat. So then of course, the animals lose because their lives cut into industry profits. "Fortunately", the lose of the caribou in Alberta can be blamed on the wolves instead of industry...yeah right. Why not, when enough money transfers, it is always the wolves fault... (tongue firmly planted in cheek). The Gov\industries do not seem to have the "luxury" of a scapegoat when it comes to the Spotted Owl...so they will take the chance of looking bad and just log away...

Peace hannibal

RTB

Climber
I’ll begin with an aside, or parenthetical note, since you’ve brought up Orwell in this context.

Without getting into the story of the publication of Animal Farm it would be unfair not to mention what Orwell himself wrote in the preface to the Ukrainian edition (1947):
"Nothing has contributed so much to the corruption of the original idea of Socialism as the belief that Russia is a Socialist country and that every act of its rulers must be excused, if not imitated. And so for the past the years I have been convinced that the destruction of the Soviet myth was essential if we wanted a revival of the Socialist movement."

[There's an interesting aside to this in Orwell's correspondence. In a letter to Arthur Koestler written in September of 1947, he tells Koestler that the American authorities in Munich seized 1,500 copies of the Ukrainian edition of Animal Farm (which had been meant for distribution to Ukrainian DPs) and turned them over to the Soviet authorities instead]

Remember, where the pigs - who are no longer distinguishable from the men - invite Farmer Jones to return and the whole operation is renamed 'Manor Farm' once again.

The Stalinist nightmare continues, but now allied with the corporate capitalist state - as much a terror for the animals as anything dreamed up by the pigs alone…and not far from what we find obtaining in the wider world today. Just as Orwell’s nightmare of never ending war with the state looking over your shoulder echoes uncomfortably in my own mind every time I turn on the TV or pick up a newspaper.

Make of that what you will.

Orwell, I think, saw very clearly where the world was trending - even though, when he started writing Animal Farm in November of 1943, apart from his anarchist experience with the POUM in Spain and the nightmare of being on the Soviet police ‘killing’ list – much of his day to day experience with bureaucracy and totalitarianism – not to say propaganda – was from his time at the BBC.

Although Orwell was well aware of the corrupting effects of power on revolutionary idealism – he was in no way blind to the equally corrupt and perhaps more dangerous problem of the impersonal and elitist corporate state.

Errata
The word 'the' appears on line 9 of the above text because I'm a sloppy typist and a poor proof reader. It should be, as anyone who's taken the time to actually read it will know - 'ten'.
Apologies.

Thanks for that Orwell information G. I like Orwell, I will have to visit his works again. Now about the spotted owl, this bullshit has been going on forever. Anyone with half a brain in thier head knows that there is no way anyone can say how many owls there are, impossible. Think about this people, planes have gone down in BC, including big ones, before they had locator devices. Huge searches were conducted by the military, cops, civilians and sometimes not a trace. People have died in the bush after searches, that wanted to be found, many times. And now we are supposed to believe that every little spotted owl in B.C. is accounted for?, give me a fukin break. Has anyone here actually thought about this?, lots of smart people on this site, for fuks sake, think. Next it will be logging is making the bears go extinct, watch, no one has cried about that for a while. I remember hearing that there are no grizzly bears anywhere around Harrison Lake, I saw a big sow above the Lineham camp in '94 (about half way up the lake, eastside), on an old landing. So much for that, and black bears, the province is infested with them. Did any of you know that bears control thier population themselves, with the boars killing and sometimes eating male cubs, not a very pretty picture is it? One thing the province is not short of is gullible, misinformed preservationists, sad.

climber

Life is full of parallels and cycles. And ironies. Clearly there have been excesses in the way logging was done in the past and your industry now finds itself beaten over the head for a situation which is historical and not current. On the other hand, I'm sure, were you running the industry, that there is still a lot you'd do to change forest practices.

The modern world suffers from many things. Not least of which is a strange combination of too much information and not enough knowledge or wisdom - if you know what I mean.

Combine that with what I take to be a desire among many individuals to find some kind of secular 'faith' in which to place their trust and there will be problems, no question.

A lot of people don't realize that the grizzly's range once included the bald prairies as far east as southern Saskatchewan and as late as the 1870s. They also don't know that mule deer and white tails are now more numerous than they've ever been in the whole continent.

Climber,

H.R.M. was a guy, but the real person you want to look up and to cite for vision is Martin Allerdale Grainger. Grainger was the guy who put H.R.M. in the job.

You said, in one breath, "[...] the rule of law is a hallmark of civilization. [...] cops marching in with pepper spray and swinging nightsticks, so be it." That's an impressive bit of contortionism. If you push a little harder, you should be able to get your shoulders in there, too.

Civilisation does not derive from a body of laws. It derives from a body of civil rights.

Corporations do not have the same rights as citizens. The effort to provide them with these rights is fascism's handmaiden. The use of force to protect corporate rights that infringe on citizen's rights is fascism's hallmark.

And in truth, corporations don't have rights, they have contractual agreements. In theory, the government is the public's agent in the contract: it's the government's responsability to get good value for the timber while protecting the rights and upholding the values of the citizens. Practice is almost perfectly the reverse: the government, that unholy glut of developers in Victoria, operate as facilitators and front-men for corporations, doling out of the public purse and squandering the resources held in trust, while prosecuting protestors.

The courts ought not be the agents of reform, since they are institutionally conservative and highly constrained in their actions. That function is what polititians are supposed to be for.

And thus, inevitably, to public protest and civil disobedience.

It's almost enough to make me wish for a monarch.

I've nothing against loggers. My family has been logging since Gilchrist. But logging practices, and the relationship between the province and the logging companies, is a long and bleak history. Defending it is a chump's game. The future is forward.

climber said: "Now about the spotted owl, this bullshit has been going on forever. Anyone with half a brain in thier head knows that there is no way anyone can say how many owls there are, impossible".

Yeah true climber, no one knows for sure, but what does that matter?? We know we have destroyed the Spotted Owl's, Grizzly Bear's, and Mountain Caribou's habitate through inconciderate big industry practise (and these are just the animals we see...), and without a home these animals are winking out... so should we NOT alter our industry practise to ensure the survival of these vulnerable animals?? Is there any real defense for what our impact has been on these animals and their potential to survive in the future? What is OUR responsiblity to them and to the earth??

There is many alternatives to forest products, but there is no alternatives to the life of the animals that are almost, and in some cases, past the tipping point...

Peace

RTB

PS

climber said:"I feel also that the control has to return to the communities. This means of course taking back the t.f.l.s and it would be nice to see a big, big shakeup at the Min. of Forests."

...here, here climber...!!

Simple solution is to clear cut all of BC and turn it into a giant mall and zoo where the last remaining species can live out their days in captivity .
You are so blind Climber you make me puke .
It doesn't matter how many owls are left the fact is their habitat that supports them is disapperaing .
Even the 'kill 'em all' Alberta government has put a 5,year moratorium on the grizzly hunt because they are not sure how many there are .
Are they endangered ? Yes.
Is it the fault of logging co's. Yes .
I guess to your weak mind there is no such thing as global warming either,eh ?
he spirtit bears habitat has been protected because the government recognized the species was in trouble .
That should satisfy anyone as to the need to protect habitat .NFM

Hannibal, I am not going to insult you, but I will point out your ignorance. The spirit bears are black bears with a genetic defect, not a seperate species. Saying they are is like saying Edgar Winter is a different species of human. So much of B.C. is already protected like at least 12%, lots more will never be logged anyways. Pathetic, hysterical whining, take some midol buddy. DFP, I am aware of Grainger, H.R. looked up to him, I know. Loggers have a right to earn money, the companies have a right to log, the question I asked about deciding what laws are ok to break and how that is figured out has never been answered. Now RTB, if logging is destroying the grizzly bears habitat, how come clearcuts are full of bears? Why are tree planters at so much risk of attack, simple, the clearcuts are full of berries and other food, not common in the mature forest. How many of you involved in this talk, other than the farmer from Sask., and Skookum1 have spent any real time in the bush?

Man of man Climber get some truth to your so called facts.

The 'Spirit Bear' is genetically unique.Period .
And some more.

Gop ahead a whistle past the graveyard of dead and dying species.
All the loggers in BC will be grateful.
By the way I am from BC so don't try and bullshit me .

And a little more for Climber to digest .

Saying something does not necessarily make it true .
The Komode is unique on the planet and must be protected .
Note: This study was funded by forrest products co's.

climber said: "...Loggers have a right to earn money, the companies have a right to log,..."

And bears have a "right" to live, and they can't do so without a forest climber, you know that...

climber said,"Now RTB, if logging is destroying the grizzly bears habitat, how come clearcuts are full of bears? Why are tree planters at so much risk of attack,..."

...karma??

O.k. the bear home is in the forest climber, and if the forest is taken away, not only will marbled murrletts leave or die, berry bushes move in. So what, there is no shortage of berry bushes in the forest or natural meadows climber. We are STILL not helping the bears...

Incidently, when trees are planted, the forest may for a few years yeild more (although not needed) grass, and bush, and maybe even deer numbers go up (hunters love this part). But this is only for a short time. Once the canopy returns in 20 or so years, the land is then arid, and desert-like and sustains very little vegatation. That is when the unnaturally increased bushes from post clear-cuts and the grasses die and then of course this will then lead to a plummet in deer population as well.

Tree planting does not work perfectly, that is for sure. G West said "They also don't know that mule deer and white tails are now more numerous than they've ever been in the whole continent". Perhaps clear cutting is one of the reasons for this imbalance. Of course killing of predators such as bears and wolves excessively as been done for over a century, would largely contribute to this deer imbalance as well.

Simply climber, I am saying there should be NO clearcuts because we can't fix it once it ts gone no matter how "smart" we are. Sustainable logging only, and no trees older than 100 year should ever be cut.

We do not know enough to know what we do not know...,!!

climber asked,"How many of you involved in this talk, other than the farmer from Sask., and Skookum1 have spent any real time in the bush"?

I have lived most of my life in either rual Southern Alberta, and rual B.C. I have ridden horseback over much of this land, and hiked the rest. I have introduced groups of city folks from Calgary and otherwise into the mountains, because they need to LOVE the land and the animals before they will protect them. They are industry peoples wives and family, and most of them were afraid of the land before experiencing it... Alientation from all that is natural comes easy to these people as you could imagine.

In other words climber, it is not all about me, but about others learning to care, and feel a sence of community outside of their human community.

My feeling is that many of those that post here on the Tyee, are in love with the earth so much that they not only have experienced it fully themselves, but have also introduced people to the natural world to experienced it also. It is a natural progression methinks...

Peace

RTB

hannibal said:
"The Komode is unique on the planet and must be protected".

Right on hannibal, this bear indeed must be protected, and the FN communities would agree whole heartedly...!!

Peace

RTB

By the way Climber how is calling someone ignorant not an insult ?

Ditto everything 'Bear' said .
I concur wholeheartedly with all you have written .
Old growth forrests are essential to the bio-sphere and eco system's .
If one species collapses there is defintely collateral damage down the chain .
If there are a lot of bears on clearcuts they are probably saying " Where the phuque are all the trees that used to be here "
If clear cutting were not an option then tree planting wouldn't be either .
For sustainable logging practices looke to Sweden and Norway. They have it dialed in .

For you climber... You don't have to thank me really (tongue firmly planted in cheek).

Jasper Creek

"I was up in Jasper Creek
falling a stand of big rotten cedars,
you know how cedars swee at the butt and
then spread out their roots,
Well, these was like that:real big
and hollow like wood caves.

It was first thing in the mornin'.
I starts up the chain saw
and lets her roar into the wood
making it bite deep to break through
the the shell, ya know,
and then it goes into soft stuff.
I figured it's just rot
but the saw jerks back hard
and starts choking and throwing up blood and meat with cedar chips.
Scared the shit outa me!!

Anyhow, thats how I killed that she-bear.
She was holed up inside one of them damn cedars.

I pulled the saw back
and sees the damn thing is smoking
with all this red blood running down the blade..."

David Day

Peace

RTB

Whoosh! The souind of your story going right over Climbers head .

Peace Bear

You guys side step like a dancing queen, about bears and clearcuts now. How is it that the southwest of B.C. is full of black bears, but also the most heavily logged, developed and settled area of the province?. How can this be, how is it that bears live in second and third growth forests, how? Fact is that the forest is not destroyed by clearcutting, myth. How do you explain the forests all around Vancouver, up all the rivers valleys, the Pitt, the Stave, the Coquitlam, the Harrison and Harrison Lake, all the wood beside and around these rivers and thier tributaries way up each side and often far beyond was clearcut. So by your statements this area should be barren of trees and wildlife, right? Very little oldgrowth any where around Vancouver, that you can drive to anyways, but no shortage of wildlife, hmmm. Now RTB, your naive statement that there should be no clearcuts, in the interior this is possible, on the coast no way. The only selective is stnding stem heli-logging, a high grade show by financial neccesity. The ground is just to steep, for starters, in Sweden and Norway they tree farm little wood, mono cultures on flat ground with machines, thats better? Now about your little poem, ok, a bear was killed, not shot, not ripped to bits by another bear but with a chainsaw, so what? Any of you now, answer my questions, directly.

climber said: "The only selective is stnding stem heli-logging, a high grade show by financial neccesity".

Why then climber, do they not do moreof this type of logging on the coast$$$$$?? Why the destructive clear cuts??? I was just on the Central Coast hiking and exploring around for a month with some locals from Bella Bella. The clear cuts right down to the salmon streams were pathetic... The Great Bear Rainforest deal isn't looking so great. At least before no one really knew what to log...now that they do, it is sure being done.

It makes me sad...

...and yes, some areas on the coast are not pristine due to previous logging, I stand corrected.

Peace

RTB

Standing stem logging is when a guy climbs a tree, strips the branches and at a certain hieght (governed by wieght), tops the tree and comes down. Then a faller puts in two matching backcuts, almost severing the tree. The huge chopper with a grapple on a line comes in, grabs the tree, snaps off the little holding wood that remains and flies it away. A landing is usually located close as the crow flies but a big deal to biuld a road to, more costly to biuld than standing stem. removal. Problem is that only the best trees are taken, the helicopter costs well over $5000 an hour, thats why only the best. Because of this highgrading the stand is denied seeds from the best trees, unlike a clearcut which is replanted with choice specimens. Also the amount of jet fuel that these choppers burn, the noise, the danger to the loggers and pilots are issues often raised. Clearcut shows are a lot easier to plan and log. I haven't seen the clearcuts you speak of, I do know that a strip has to be left beside most fishbearing streams, certainly big ones. I work on trees in these areas so they don't blow down. As I have said before the clearcuts of today are much smaller than they were in the past, but they can be shocking to some, in the first five or so years.

climber said: "I haven't seen the clearcuts you speak of, I do know that a strip has to be left beside most fishbearing streams,..."

They are all over that area climber. I was watching them do it while I was there. There is a few also around Bella Coola on the way to Bella Bella.

Thanks for the logging terminology lesson, much appreciated climber. Are you a "climber"?? Your quote was "Standing stem logging is when a guy climbs a tree,...". Are you the guy??

Climber said: "As I have said before the clearcuts of today are much smaller than they were in the past, but they can be shocking to some,...".

Yeah dude, like shocking to the bears...

Peace dude

bed time...RTB

I wasn't asking about clearcuts, thats cool, what I was asking is how close the logging was to major creeks. I climb trees in the strips left by creeks and other riparian areas. They get topped so they don't blow down. I know guys who have cimbed standing stem. Back in the early '90s I worked as a juvenile spacer (cutting trees in a planted cutblock to leave only crop trees, usualy three types, about 600-700 to the hectare) on both sides of Harrison Lake. Most of the trees I cut down had been planted, all decidous was cut, any defective trees cut. All these blocks had been planted with Douglas or Grand Fir, the Hemlock and Red Cedar grew back naturally, along with alders. These blocks were just full of bears, bear shit everywhere, often with steam coming off it. They were feeding on the bushes in the regrowth. I mean full of bears, my boss had a 12 gauge defender with him when he laid out strips. The Harrison Lake area has been getting logged for over 100 years, getting logged again in many places. There is no shortage of bears there. RTB, I am sorry that you have been misinformed by whoever, I can imagine, David Suzuki comes to mind, anyways don't take my word for it, head up either side of the lake and see.

climber said,"RTB, I am sorry that you have been misinformed by whoever, I can imagine, David Suzuki comes to mind, anyways don't take my word for it, head up either side of the lake and see".

Dude, misinformation about what?? Are you not reading my other posts where I explained to you about clear cuts, and tree planting. Read again. More food is available for a very short time, and then all hell breaks loose... All that was sucessfully done by clear cuts and tree planting is to imbalance an already perfect self-regulating system...

And climber, everytime you do not know what else to say...try not to blame the 'zuk. Try instead to understand it dude. I might be putting my neck out here, but David Suzuki has changed the face of science and understanding for the average public Joe citizen... Climber, what have you cut down lately????

Peace

RTB

Actually I haven't cut down many trees at all in the last year. I used to cut down hazard trees for Hydro, thankless task, unapreciated by many. Next time there is a storm and the power goes out, think about that. Like I have said a few times now, I cut a few branches of trees and top them so they don't blow down. There are crews of guys doing this, to preserve riparian zones, around creeks mostly. Just another way logging has changed, ignored by many. On David Suzukis website, the one called Clearcutting the Rainforest, it says the clearcuts are smaller but the trees they leave all blow down in a few years. They don't, this problem has being dealt with for at least five years now, by guys like me. Now RTB, what do you think about what I have said about logging and wildlife in the southwest corner of B.C.? How come the bears are everywhere?

Uh,maybe because that is where bears live-in the forrest .
Where would you have the bears go Main Street, East Hastings, Stanley Park ?
Nope the more you try and defend these actions the more I am convinced that Bear knows whereof he speaks and you do not .
Forrests have been self-sustaing for millions of years .
There were no people to put out forrest fires in ancient times and yet they survived .

Good post hannibal...!
Yeah, bears live in the forest indeed...hello.

climber, if you were peacefully sitting at home eating a pizza at your kitchen table, and a storm came and whipped your house away, I would suggest you would look a lot like the bears do when their home is suddenly taken away. Not so hard to understand...right?

The clearcuts will however artificially pump up some animal populations such as deer due to the unnatural amount of grass, and berry bushes. At the same time it will drop the number of others down, such as the marbled murrletts on the coast, and the spotted owl in Lilloett. This is pathetically unnatural, and despite the human hunters loving the deer and ungulate population increase, the earth does not... Case in point, the spotted owl which is considered an ecological disaster due to industry.

Once the canopy from tree planting develops, due to the equal aging of the trees, it is unnaturally dense and thick. Not at all like the natural forest of the area. This growth takes place within 15 to 20 years, depending on where in B.C. we are referring to. The unnatural "canopy" then starves out all the vegatation that lives below it, creating an arrid, desert-like condition, that does NOT promote or sustain life well. Then ecological loses are emminent climber.

Is this something you are comfortable being responsible for?? Why not make logging ethically and sustainably our only choice??

We do not know enough to know what we do not know climber. Because of this, our impact has to be much smaller than a clear cut of any proportion allows...

Peace

RTB

Great stuff Bear . My neck is sore from nodding in agreement with your posts .
This can be described as collateral damage in that if one species disappears than how many others are impacted ?
The numbers of spotted owls is a matter of record . Enviornmentalists have counted the breeding pairs and there are less than 12 .
They require old growth forests to survive because as you stated the canopy .

So how man other species Climber are you prepared to kill off ?

hannibal said,"So how man other species Climber are you prepared to kill off ?"

...good question. (fingers tapping patiently...).RTB

Enviromentalists counted less than 12 breeding pairs, I guess that means 11. How, for fuks sake could they say this, how, have you guys ever been out in the bush? Scroll up to one of my prior posts and look at how I demolish any validity to this retarded count. Hannibal, I said the bears are everwhere in the forests in southwestern B.C. that were clearcut in the past, now second and third growth. And you say they live in the forest, they do, the forest that grew back after it was clearcut. Today at work I saw bears, I saw old growth, second growth and logged old and second growth, there is going to be third growth logged and still bears.

Does this answer your question ?
Science at work for the world .
They also use ground observation and other techniques.
Why does this distrureb you so ?
Are you so blind you cannot see the forest for the trees. Pun intended .

Sounds like bullshit to me, ground observation, really now, did you look at my previous post as I asked?

...so climber, did I say there was no bears?? hannibal, did you say there was no bears??... No, but what I did say is clear cutting a forest, alters the perfect biosystems which exist in a natural forest and these forests cannot be replaced no matter how "brilliant" the human animal is. In simpler terms, this is bad, exploitive, and unnecessary.

Peace

RTB

You guys have it your heads that clearcutting is all bad, that logging destroys the enviroment, that bears are threatened, that spotted owls are a C-hair away from thier demise. No amount of reason or fact will change your minds in the slightest, pointless to continue.

Agreed .Now got cut down some ancient cedars and you'll feel all better .

Typical neo-con reaction. Cut and run when confronted with the truth .

Agreed climber...

Peace

RTB

"Cut and run..." Pun intended hannibal?

hannibal, got a call from a friend today. The clear cutting is going strong on the Central Coast. They are going from valley to valley, and some right down to the existing salmon streams... Pathetic.

Anyways, thanks for the chat...

Peace to you hannibal,

RTB

Why the insult Mr. Lecter? I am not a neocon, I am pro choice, anti death penalty, in favor of govt. funded daycare, voted NDP before......whats the use, like I said, your minds are closed, true believers. Anyways, no hard feelings, take care.