It was pretty obvious from the beginning that the coup that overthrew Aristide was a corporate takeover of the country, with the tacit approval of our government. Aristide was trying to curb the exploitation of his country by "foreign investors" and had to go. Surprising he wasn't killed.

Interesting to note that Canada, or rather the corporations that control our "deep integrationist" Liberals and Conservatives, are willing to spend over $200. million on the entrenchment of profitable corruption, but only 10% of this sum on the Pakistani tragedy, where thousands are dying, because there's nothing to "invest" in.

Human lives are nowhere when it comes to the overruling rights of "investment".

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

With the arrest of a Prime Minister and continued persecution of Aristide's supporters, we need to ask do we really want these 100 officers back? If they are in a training program, I ask "who is doing the learning?"

Haiti will be far more than Canada's Iraq, it will be worse.

"Human lives are nowhere when it comes to the overruling rights of "investment"."

You got that right Big Ed:-)

I've been following this story since the abduction by u.s. troops of the democratically elected leader, Jean Bertrand Aristide. It has come as quite a shock that Canadian troops are part of the repression and intimidation tactics being used there. Hell they are implicated in at least one massacre.

Why should I be shocked? We are helping to enforce the occupation of Afghanistan. I guess because I grew up with the stories of peacekeeping in Cyprus and our altruistic purpose in being there. It seems that was probably just propaganda.

Now the rot in our own foreign policy is coming out just like that in the u.s. The decay has reached such proportions that even the most dedicated free-world propaganda can't cover it up anymore. When we want to remove a democratically elected leader we criticise the electoral process in that country. Never mind the countries that don't have elected leaders that we don't overthrow. Never mind that our own level of democracy is largely a shame and we get "the best government money can buy."

meant to say sham, but hey, shame works too.

Check out the link, our dear Minister with blood on his hands. A Vancouver
Activist threw red paint on the hands of Pierre Pettigrew.

http://dominionpaper.ca/weblog/2005/06/pettigrew_with_blood_on_his_hands.html

This is disgusting, the poorest country in the hemisphere once again being occupied.
The US funded leader of the coup Guy Phillip was labeled a war criminal for killing over
9 police officers, the morgues were overflowing with bodies of political enemies.

Democracy US and Canadian style, we should bring this issue up next Fed election, ask any
Liberal member why we should support them when they act in this way. The appointment of
A Haitian governor general won’t cut it , sorry but nice try.

i do not understand why canada gets involved in some of these countries.

in this case it is haiti, where some $2oom have been flushed.

canada has untold numbers of needy people that the govt avoids helping, no matter whether it is right or wrong, no matter that it can be afforded.

should we not look after our own poor first?

what is in it for canada? brownie points?
haiti has nothing of economic value, so there seems little point in 'buying' their govt.

(yes the poor need help, but the current system provides nothing for them, beyond best wishes.)

besides, the govt of canada has reduced military spending to the point that canadian participation is be inept, at best.

armed forces are expensive to maintain at a high level.
they can have a much higher price when they are maintained at the level ours are maintaied at.

canada's involvement in haitian politics will be of no benfit to canada.

but any investment currently made will surely support those currently in power.

they are just like our politicians - they crave power, and all the trappings of power. as the govt, they steal from the govt, as if it is a divine right. yes, i mean chretien, and his band of thieves.

where our politicos have to use lies, and creative accounting, and behind the scenes deals,
the haitian leaders have guns, and they know how to use them.

canada is wrong to be involved in haiti.

Canada is part of 8,000 peace keepers from the UN Stabilization Mission in Haiti ( MINUSTAH ).
I hardly think this a burning issue that will permanantly damage our international reputation. I mean, does Canada even have an international reputation ?
Being a drug running country, it's no wonder that they attract attention from the USA.

Medication time Ron....

Got any club ?

Sure, shall we say 1 hour, at the safe injection site? My treat.

RE: I feel so relaxed now, I never knew...
CoR: Yes Ron, that's your mind opening.
RE: Wanna know a secret? I don't really think George Bush is all that smart! Te he...
CoR: No! Really?
RE: Really! I pretend he is but I know better. I just like to play silly bugger!
CoR: You're very good at it!
RE: Can we go to the park now?
CoR: How would you like to go to a rally for peace?
RE: Oh yes please! Can I bring my family?
CoR: Please do, all are welcome there.
RE: I love you guys...

Thank you, Jarred Ferrie for writing this rare and enlightening article about Canada's disgusting and, yes, shocking involvement in Haiti. Basically, the Canadians, Americans and French have destroyed a democratically elected government and handed the country back to the gangsters, exploiters and killers who controlled it before Aristide. It's like bring back baby and papa doc combined. This statement pretty well tells the whole story: "Some critics say that countries including Canada put pressure on Haiti by withholding aid and then rushed in to support the unelected opposition when Aristide's government fell. They claim that the strategy was led by the United States, Canada and France." I'm waiting to see how our new governor general from Haiti squares her new job as head of state of Canada with our evil participation in the destruction of glimmering democracy in her native land. The word Judas comes to mind.

Overthrowing and attacking popular governments that have as a priority the welfare of their own people, and wise husbandry of their resources for their own benefit in the face of foreign exploitation, is far from new. One need look no further than recent history of Central and South America. U.S. Black ops come to mind.

This sucking up to Uncle Sam is shameful. It certainly isn't unheard of that we of the civilized West have had others tortured and murdered by proxy.

I haven't seen any discussion of this issue in the mainstream media. Perhaps I missed it.

Let me explain burner

The money used for the occupation and coup is our tax money, your money.
The profit pulled out of Haiti by large corporations is their money.

They would spend 10 dollars of your money to make 2 dollars for them. In fact when it comes to making them money yours money in no object.

Who are those corporations Stuart speaks of? Why, they are the garment industries that left Quebec some time ago for the cheap wages of the 3rd world.

That is why Canada is there.

skeptikool, I wish you'd use your real name, but anyway, you haven't missed this stuff in Canwest. I've been looking for it. It's not there. Channel 4, the Shaw cable channel has allowed a few freelance journalists on telling it all exactly as Ferrie presents here, but now with that new Shaw-Canwest incest going on expect it to disappear completely. That Forbes girl who does the sit-com on 4 actually recommended the CanWest website for further information on a story she was doing for Shaw. Is this para-convergence, or something? The Haiti story is just about as evil as evil gets, maybe just a bit less than the Belgians and Americans planting lies about Patrice Lumumba and handing him over to Mobutu's killers forty-five years ago. (We kidnapped Aristide, but we didn't murder him and chop up his body as they did to Lumumba)They used some of the same tactics, however: planting stories in the media that Lumumba was a communist so they could get their own resource theft-friendly dictator in place. (Sese Seko, the biggest thief in the history of the world) Did you read all the stuff in Mainstream about Aristide being crazy? Haiti in 2005 is a pretty good analogue for the Belgian Congo in l960. In fact if I was just a bit flakier than I am, I'd almost think that Aristide was a reincarnation of Patrice Lumumba and it was dega vu all over again.

I vote a letter to CBC last year begging them to cover Haiti in a responsible way being public radio etc etc, and asking them why their coverage is so shoddy and non existent.

No word of a lie, I received a letter 2 months later telling me that their foreign correspondent for Latin America has been ill and absent for some time, so in other words that rely solely on government and military dispatches for all their info, I think I still have the letter.

We need to break the current media and build up our own like the Tyee and CFRO 102.7 FM,
Fungus can only grow in the dark, shine light on injustice and it cannot continue,
I will try and find a list of Canadian and US corporations profiting in Haiti,

" Nortel Networks, a fairly affluent telecommunications firm. Both corporations have profitted substantially from the free market policies imposed by the Latortue government in Haiti. In particular, SNC-Lavalin has gained contracts in Haiti which are partly financed by "aid" dollars of the Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA). CIDA, a government agency, also played a large role in destabilizing the Aristide government from 2000-2004, and is currently paying the salaries of at least two high-level ministers within the government of Haiti. "

Lavalin, surprise, the folks building our new RAV line also

Stuart,

Your post one hour ago re: Tax money.

While my son has not yet taken the plunge in adopting a pseudonym, nor yet posted on The Tyee, he does enjoy reading it - despite occasional surges in blood pressure.

He was most insistent that I thank you for your post that he found: "...in few words, understandable to all, very much what globalization is all about."

When Pearson developed the "UN International Peacekeping Force" idea, it was for getting in between two lines of crazies, and stop them from killing each other and a lot of innocents. The usual victims of wars and the heroic military anywhere.

Not to enforce the profit demands of multinationals by supporting local quisling dictators.

Ed Deak.

skeptikool, no problem,

as far as the occasional surges in blood pressure. I would not worry , getting pissed off is very healthy, if all Canadians were like your son change would happen over night.

Otro Mundo es posible
Another world is possible.

Cheers

Ed,

Further on the UN, today, letter writer Charles King, board member of Physicians for Global Survival,sees an irony in the visit to Canada of Condoleezza Rice during UN Disarmament Week (24-28 Oct), noting the U.S.'s
significant role in undermining the UN structure.

Is Martin seeking vindication for Canada's opting out of the illegal assault against Iraq?

It appears the case, since he is bending to the Bush Administration's wishes not only on Haiti, but in not supporting a draft resolution on nuclear disarmament and non-proliferation. This, despite polls over the years showing overwhelming support of the Canadian public for nuclear disarmament.

The writer concludes: "Did Martin take this opportunity to remind Rice how clearly Canadians feel about this matter?"

One could almost wish for a return of the Chretien government. (That was Skep speaking)

cc Charles King

Truman Green,

Won't give you the whole thing, but I'll answer to Philip.

Too many digbats gunning for me - must think I'm a club member.

Philip ;-)

It's good to finally see a little news finally getting out about Canada's dirty war on Haiti. I've been following the disgusting story on http://www.haitiaction.net/.

I've also written several letters to the editor of the Times Colonist, but it appears this is one of those things that can't be discussed, like the chemtrails, the deaths from perscription drugs,
nationalizing the oil etc. You all know the list.

It's hard to believe that in this democracy we can wake up and find our country has invaded and committed us to wars in Afghanistan, Haiti and Amercia's bullshit war on terror without any real public process.

Perhaps part of my problem is beleiving I live in a democracy, when it's really all about the money. No matter what your told.

It's always, all about the money.

Part of this problem is the price of the “myth” of peacekeeping coming home to roost. Peacekeeping was never designed to prevent two “crazies” from fighting, it was meant to give two stable countries a peaceful option to step back from armed conflict. It was never meant to deal with internal strife.

I suspect that all parties in Haiti have blood on their hands and been elected down there often means the start of a new dictator. Politics in third world countries can be very nasty and violent and often done by both (all) sides. If you pick one side or the other, then you better be aware that they might not be the people you invite home to meet mom.

So if the big bad west wants to run Haiti, just what does it have that is so attractive?

Colin,

Ans. Climate.

IF Haitians were to agree to have their country become a province of Canada,I believe that, very quickly you would have as many Canadians living there as are living in Florida and Arizona - probably more.

To very many, Canadian winters are punishment - even to those fortunate enough to be living on our Wet Coast.

To Colin,
what do we always want with the 3rd world, free resources, sweat shop labor, free tax zones, ask Lavalin and Nortel Networks and CIDA what they want in Haiti and a whole handful of huge US multi nationals , I will provide a list if you like. Haiti is a rich country , full of wealth, its just its people that are poor.

Oh sorry if I upset you, what we really want is a nice democratic state like Iraq, we are only their to be nice. Good boy scouts of the world. Or maybe Haiti had weapons of mass destruction,

or maybe the former leader was cracking down on corporate corruption and raising min living standards for his people.
What these group of companies hate the most is leadership that actually wants to help its people, how un
democratic.

And what the hell do you mean big bad west, the crimes committed in Haiti have nothing to do with the majority of westerners, we are the west, don't paint me in with a small concentrated group that makes these decisions.

We are citizens not gov lackies that must stand together with every stupid decision our gov makes.

Just for pure comic relief, why do you think were in Haiti Colin or have you given any thought before today.

Colin, I guess it's easier to suppose that "both parties have blood on their hands," and I don't blame you for making this claim, in light of the strangness of the present situation there, but in reality Aristide's government and party were sincerely trying to bring some kind of eqalitarianism and democracy to Haiti--and almost all of the poverty-stricken people loved them. The Americans more or less kidnapped him and sent him to the Central African Republic, while one of the two black Judases in the American government, Colin Powell, stonewalled and lied to the press about it. (Now we have our own, in the person of former Haitian, Michelle Jean). I wonder if you know the history of Haiti, especially starting with Papa Doc Duvalier and his rotten punk of a kid, "Baby Doc". (who still lives lavishly on the French Riviera) Well the latest participation by Canada, the U.S. France, Brazil, not to mention the UN is tantamount to handing the place back to these bastards and their private killers the touton macoutes who basically macheted to death anyone who tried to raise a voice against corrupted business interests--the ones that are now reaping the fruits of the labours of our own RCMP and "peacekeeping" soldiers. I've followed every major political crisis since about l960, including the slaughters in Cambodia and Rwanda. The current debacle in Haiti, is in a way worse than any of these because it is so blatant. The mind really boggles. Imagine, our lovely Canada participating in something as cold-hearted and rotten as this. It's very depressing.

Is HAITI another way of spelling CUBA?

Uhhh, I hate to break the bubble most of you people live in....but having "peacekeepers" is NOT what Canada was founded upon.

This country was founded upon, preserved and defined NOT by "peacekeepers" as most of the drippy-heads in this country believe, rather it was due to an active, professional military which fought through four wars. To simply go on and label our forces as "peacekeepers" of an impotent, inept and corrupt U.N., is to belittle the sacrifices made by every individual in the service of the Dominion. Any of you morons ever hear of the Airborne Regiment?? Before that unit was disbanded due to a politically-correct, knee-jerk reaction by the idiotic government of the day, it was a skilled, highly-competent combat unit. Cripes, even the SOVIETS knew it, and gave it the respect it was due.

Hell, if I were forced to wear that insipid blue beret, I'd want a paper bag to hide my identity to go along with it.

"Peacekeepers"???

Oh spare me.

"Oh hi Mr. Kofi!! Where do ya want us to go THIS time??"

Piss off with the U.N. already.

Canuck1

Actually I have given Haiti some thought. Even had it on my list of places to go. But for the life of me I can’t see what Haiti has that other 3rd world countries don’t have. It’s infrastructure is in taters which means the cost of ‘exploiting” it’s resources will be high. None of you have actually listed anything that it has that would be of interest. I suspect that sugar cane, palm oil and copper would be the most likely resource. But all of those can be easily obtained elsewhere. I believe that Rogers sugar used to own large plantations there, but now gets most of it’s sugar from Beets in the prairies.

Stuart
Thanks for the comment about Nortel and SNC-lavalin (A big firm with strong French Canadian connections I believe).

Canuck
Thanks for the comment about soldiers first, peacekeeping second. The reason our guys did well in peacekeeping was because of the high level of intelligence and responsibility our soldiers and Officers have and the willingness and ability to kick the crap out of anyone that tried to mess with them. That was until the UN decided that the “peacekeepers” could not interfere while the nutcakes murdered their neighbours. Wouldn’t want to offend some dictators now would we.

Whether or not Aristide would have been good or bad for Haiti is hard to say. The whole Central and South America is full of people that started with good intentions and promises, only to become just like the person they overthrew. As they say the “Lament of Simon Bolivar” was to lay the seeds of a thousand dictators.

Colin, does that mean you think that Jered Ferrie hasn't presented an accurate portrayal of what's going on in Haiti?

Who nails it, I think.

It's too bad, but the current Canadian State and its military, and I served in the Canadian military, are little more than slave arms of the US Empire-, in this case, helping it "clean up" and secure what it views as its own backyard.

Haiti is one of those examples of where, when it serves its interests and can do so, the US Empire, through Canada in this case, cloaks itself in the mantle of UN respectability to do its corporate empire's dirty work. When it can't secure that UN sanction, for whatever reason (It's Empire aims being just too blatantly obvious and self-serving.), as in the case of Iraq, it simply does what it wants anyway.

Which is an example of the benefit of brow beating small, poor states out of their WMD, while maintaining the predominance and dominance of your own weapons of Mass Destruction. The US Empire fair reeks hypocrisy of policy and action in the world, that has even many of its allies revolted, were they not so intimidated by it, as is Canada.

Better this country separated both its politico-economic AND military policy from the US Empire, and struck off on its own independent course of self reliance, conservation of resources, but where necessary, diversifying its trade with the entire world, especially the smaller and struggling states of our own hemisphere. Which would have a better chance of success were we actually able and had a military plan to defend our own territory and resources from WHOMEVER. (And that doesn't mean, zero "fair" trade with the United States.)

Haiti is such a failure because again, it is interference in the affairs of another poor state, desparately in need of a socio-economic revolution-, AND not even so for own interests, but the Big Daddy with the Big Stick that still, even in what should be our adulthood, scares us poopless.

It's the one embarassment of being Canadian.

And, perhaps of some interest to one or two here, being a severe critic even of the role and policies of the Canadian State and its leadership, makes one no less of a loyal Canadian. Indeed, it might even be that person is more loyal than those who would blindly and uncritically follow their State leaders into say, a losing, fools, or criminal war.

Certainly it makes one no less loyal a Canadian, for example, than one would be a loyal trade unionist who is a severe critic of the leadership, tactics and strategy of their trade union movement and its leadership. It is a question of primarily, to where or to whom, and how one really owes their loyalty and manifests it-, be it to either their country or even...., ohhhh, lets say a working class trade union.

Who is either better served by; blind followers even into defeat, even if one seeks to declare it a victory later, or followers of highly developed critical judgement who would warn and advance alternatives to both leaders and their fellow led?

I know the answer I would give. I ain't following anyone blindly into Hell. Though I may yet choose to go there. :-)

It was an understanding the military and I had a problem arriving at as well.

Hi, Canuck 1. Thanks for the very good chuckle I got by reading your claim of what Canada was founded on. I've always thought it was founded on stealing a continent from the Indians. And as for you claims about the "Airborne"...Weren't they disbanded for torturing and murdering a 16 year-old Somalia kid who was hanging around a Canadian base trying to get some free hand-outs?

Hi back at you, Truman Green.

Glad you got a chuckle.

First I'll address your misguided notion of why that regiment was disbanded, then I'll address your bleeding-heart statement about our aborigiekeepers".nal issue, ok?

1. Why do you use the name of that regiment in quotation marks? (as in "Airborne"?) It was a REAL unit, with REAL soldiers...ok? Not incompetent "peacekeepers". As for why they were disbanded, well that's simple: that happened because two irresponsible, gung-ho, twisted assholes took matters into their own hands, and tortured a Somali kid. Those same two idiots were already placed under arrest, and being prepared for court-martial (Pvt. Kyle Brown and Pvt. Clayton Matchee). Matchee hanged himself and botched it up, and turned into a turnip that breathes; Brown got five years in prison. So now what? You think a whole godddamn regiment needed to be disbanded because of two cretins?? See, at least our American cousins got it right on this score: there were individual acts of atrocities commited by their troops, but you don't see them disbanding the Green Berets, the Navy SEALS, or their Marine Force Recon unit FOR THE ACTIONS OF A FEW MORONS, NOW DO YOU??? No, instead, they prosecute the INDIVIDUALS responsible, and move on. But us? Noooooooo....we have to knee-jerk, and get rid of our ONLY comptetent combat unit. Why? Just so people like YOU, Mr. Green, can sleep in their own little ignorant cocoon at night.

And as to your comment about the "Indians", read up on your history (some more, I mean). English Canada (the Crown) has always has a good relationship with Canada's aboriginals. It's FRENCH-Canadians they can't stand, and vice-versa. They were our allies in the War of 1812, and allies in a host of other subsequent skirmishes over the years, both foreign and domestic.

Have you learned anything from this, Mr. Green? Or are you still chuckling in your own
stoned little world like most folks out in B.C.?

Canuck2

P.S. Have GREAT day.

TG
It is not a bad article, but it is also mainly a collection of quotes, which by inclusion and exclusion of material you can paint the picture you want the reader to see.

I don’t believe that it is all being done to the orders of the US. There are to many countries involved that don’t march to Washington’s drum. Is it being poorly handled, very likely. I think the UN failed to realize the depth and complexity of the issues when they went in. In this case they did the same that Rumfields did in Iraq, trying to do it on the cheap. In fact I see that a Ecuadorian soldier was just killed there, poor bugger. (Some of the more likeable military types I have met in South America)

I suspect that a lot of the local gangs are not interested in any form of stability and are keeping things on the boil and trying to jockey for more power. There are something like 20 armed gangs in cite Soleil alone.

I also understand that one of the former Presidents that is running for office actually initiated social and land reforms for the poor that were overturned by Aristide when he came to office. It will be interesting to see if Preval gets in again and what he would do.

Anyways I am off tomorrow to “exploit” Malaysia’s curry puff and dosa’ supply for a month. I am sure to come back 20 lbs heavier!

Canucks 1 & 2 you must be a loving couple from Alberta. You can always tell a redneck couple, when they are finished making their point they stab you with the knife.

If they could only learn to argue their case without punching afterwards! You see their children hitting others in the sandbox too, it's what they see at home. I guess when you're sitting on 250 billion barrels of reserves in oil sands you tend to be cocky too! Is some of that oil yours 1 & 2, or do you just use it for hair gel?
I guess you'll wanna take a shot at me now too. I've posted enough around here I'm sure you can find something that sounds similar to your own "pure prairie gibberish!"

Gotta love the Internet. This is way better than TV!

The most important thing to observe is that we are actually talking (writing ) about these subjects at all. Ideas and opinions, colourfully offered with the hopeful intentions of catalyzing change.

We do want change don't we? A favourite quaotation of mine is, "If we want things to stay as they are, things will have to change." Tancredi in Giuseppe di Lampedusa's "The Leopard."

There is only one hope for Haiti. Poor women have to hold the reins of power and authority. In one year Haiti would be completely transformed. It's so simple.

Sparking change one neurotransmitter at a time, Mink

Awww, club.

I see you're STILL at it, running your mouth like a tent flap in a Maritime wind. Didn't I put you in your place in that other thread about American Army deserters and teach you anything? Judging by your previous post, I guess not. You still argue like before: you totally ignore EVERY salient point I've made, and instead concentrate on the little quips and jabs I make in a light-hearted vein. In the process, you come off sounding like every inch the bigoted, misguided, prejudicial nutjob that you truly are. So what are my options? Well, I'll simply indulge you some more. Listen to this:

1. You're fat. You're ugly. You're adopted. Your parents don't love you.

2. Canuck 1 & 2 are the SAME. ONE person. Different names to accommodate two different e-mail addy's. Never thought of that one, did ya?

3. Alberta? Ahh, no. But I'm sure our fellow Canadians who live on the prairies would be gratified to know how others like YOU in this nation view them, buying into a sterotype when describing them. Why pick on Alberta, club? Even if I were from Newfoundland (which I'm not), it's STILL a step-up from the stoners in B.C. THAT was my point. And IF YOU are from B.C., then I rest my case.

4. Hey club!! Anytime you want, you can quit that $6.00/hr. job at Burger King, and discover the REAL world outside your parents' basement (like I said, they don't love you anyway). But you probably live in that mudhole of a neighbourhood known as East Vancouver, so I can't say I'm surprised.

Have a GREAT day,

Canuck 1 OR 2

P.S. I bet you're still a virgin, too.

So there.

Whoa! I new you were twisted from the deserter thread, but now I see you really are just an agitator. Argue? Debate? With you? I wouldn't give you the time of day *******. Just wanted to point out your lack of any social skills period, and thanks to your predictable response you've already made my case. Having lived all over this fine country, and in Calgary the longest, I know that Canadians don't rank themselves according to regions. According to your scale BC is at the bottom with NFLD just slightly above.... Please continue to dig your own grave. But know this, you will do it with out my help!

LOL!!

You call anyone living in Alberta a "redneck", then say we don't "rank ourselves according to region".

LOL!!!

And worse yet...you claim to have lived there!!!

LMFAO!!!

You're too much. At least I'm HONEST about my regionalization. (Although personally I have a hard time debating ANYTHING with anyone who doesen't seem to have a fixed address. Whatsamatter? Are your bail conditions too much for you to abide by, so you have to keep changing communities?).

Geographically, I understand B.C. is quite beautiful. But Socially? Politically? Economically? Bottom of the heap.

Izzat food enough for ya, Bluto??

Now get yourself down to the library, and out of your parents basement, and get a good book (one WITHOUT pictures).

Have a GREAT sunshiney day.

Canuck1 (or 2)

Thanks for getting back, Canuck 2. I'd recommend that you read, "Stolen Continents" by Ronald Wright. Being a descendant of African slaves, Seminole Indians (Florida and Oklahoma and Cree Indians (Canada) I may have a bit different perspective on colonialism than you do, but I understand what you're saying about the Airborne. I probably shouldn't have tarred the whole regiment with the same brush as they say.

Thank you, Mr. Green.

I'm already on the hunt for this book you recommended. I shall endeavour to seek it out, read it and get back to you.

Thank you as well for your acknowledgement of my comments, re: the Airborne Regiment of Canada. It was an exceptional airborne infantry unit, and a victim of stupid, knee-jerk political reactionism.

Anyways, I'll get back to you about that book.

Ciau.

Canuck2

P.S.

Nice to see you can take some comments in the spirit of jest as they were intended Mr. Green, unlike SOME OTHERS around here, who get way, way bent out of shape and have ZILCH in terms of a sense of humour.

Anyways,

Toodles.

Canuck2

Military Intelligence: The US army has dumped tons of chemical weapons in our oceans, left over from WW II. Whatthefuck were they thinking? Shell casing filled with mustard and nerve chemicals, they also dumped nuclear waste. When hundreds of dolphins wash up on the east coast with sores than can only be attributed to mustard gas everyone wonders why. Wonder no more. As we've seen with the torture and misconduct now being addressed, honor and accountability has been left on the battlefields of the great wars. Expose the bullies for what they are, cowards hiding behind their uniforms and rank. Restore it's once proud heritage. Get rid of the bullies.
A true veteran takes responsibility for his/her actions, and those around him. You see a perfect example of jarhead mentality in this thread. These attrocities will continue as long as they "have a job."

What, club...now you're a CRUSADER?

What the **** do dolphins, oceans, nuclear waste or Desperate Housewives for that matter, have to do with Canada, Haiti, "peacekeeping", and the Airborne Regiment??

Know what?

You're not even a "crusader".

You're a mental case.

What the **** do YOU know about the "once-proud heritage" of wearing "the uniform"?? Or even of "battlefields" or "great wars"??

You ever serve/wear the uniform?

You ever serve in combat?

Have you ever served ANYTHING, besides giving people their #4 Combo plate at the fast-food joint where you obviously are employed?

No?

Then SHADDAP.

Shit, at this point, I'd even give you a SMIDGEON of respect even if you wore that pukey blue beret of the U.N.

BUT YOU CAN'T EVEN LAY CLAIM TO THAT!

Instead, I get a lot of nonsensical hogwash about goddamn dolphins, oceans and blistered hemorrhoids. Gawd, you're a crackpot. You must have been the one getting the living snot kicked out of you as a kid at school, right? Only after awhile, they stopped doing it because you were a mouthy, irritating twerp, and instead started doing it out of GENERAL GODDAMN PRINCIPLE!!!

Look, you wanna argue or debate a point? Fine. Then stick to THE POINT!! You wanna take on all the ills of the world, and be this great wonderful clean-up kinda guy?? Okay swell.

BUT STAY FOCUSSED!! Don't start getting these moronic ideas in your head, and start going all over the freakin' map!! STICK TO THE POINT!! Or better yet, show some balls, put on the uniform, and get cracking on it! Or better yet, run for Parliament! Become an M.P.

DO SOMETHING.

ANYTHING.

Just stop spewing about battlefields, uniforms, mustard, dolphins or bed sores, ok??

And....do NOT stop taking your meds.

Have a GREAT day.

Canuck2

Nice rant jarhead. First lets be perfectly clear you and I have never debated, not once. We have never met and if we did I can only hope it would be on the ice where our gloves would be off before the puck is dropped, you no good piece of dogshit. The only real place we could legally hit each other, which is all you understand, you fuckingmoron. But, if we ever did debate which we won't because you are devil spawn, I would start by saying that the military is just a bunch of bullies like you who never grew up and like to wear uniforms and get freaky with hazing rituals...you being the lead freak!
Look at the people who were blamed for torture and misconduct in Cuba and Iraq, yet the officers and comanding General never took responsibility for their part. My understanding is the same commandant from Cuba headed over to Iraq with his new found freedom to abuse prisoners, and show them how to extract information. If there was any honour left in the military they would take the fall instead of letting the grunts take the blame. Oh they acted on their own, cause as you say they were twisted? You ignorant sack of pus! Do you actually think anyone believes you? FOAD. You and the rest of the war criminals torturing people for fun, what other reason could it be? It's certainly not about terror or WMD, because they have been proven as no greater a threat than before 9/11. Homeland security my ass, state appropriated money for Haliburton. It's all about oil and power. That's why we will not be debating, you are too busy field stripping and cleaning your AK47 to understand anything I've said.
So in conclusion, what do Dolphins have to do with this? Everything you idiot. It's called responsibility, respect for life, it's not about who signs your blood stained cheques. I can only hope you are writing from a military prison, cause you are definately the type who takes out aggression on others. I wouldn't be surprised if the prosecutor wanted you locked away as a dangerous offender. That's the difference between you and normal people....

Unlike yourself, when I lost my virginity, it was consensual.

"Devil Spawn"??

Hmmm....I like it. *LMFAO*

From now on, you will address me as MR. Devil Spawn (or just "Dev" will do, if we want to be informal about it).

1. What makes you think you'd stand a Republican Guard's-chance-in-the-desert if you you squared off against me on a hockey rink?? Jeez-Louise, I'd knock your fat ass through the boards and into next week if that were the case. So don't even THINK about acting like you have any guts/testosterone. Just go back and play with your Barbie dolls, ok?

2. "Piece of dogshit"? "Fucking moron"? "Jarhead"?? "Ignorant sack of of pus"?? "FOAD"?? My-my-my....nice talk from the one who "respects all life". LMFAO. Seems you have a pretty good streak of having the "devil spawn" in you as well, dontcha? What, I hit a little nerve there, club? LMFAOOOOO

3. So, you beleive that the "military is just a bunch of bullies who never grew up", and that they're "freaks". Oh so nice. I'm sure all of those families and relatives of all those Canadians killed fighting Nazis (as well as our surviving vets) would LOVE to hear you speak at one of their reunions. I see myself walking into the room shortly after they string you up, and say to them "Hey! I know that insipid mouthy *******!! Ship him to Osama! He'd love'em!"

3. "AK-47"??? Umm, sorry. Wasn't the weapon issued to me. That was the OTHER sides hardware, ya dimwit.

4. You're a religious nut, aren't you? Only a zealot would use the word "devil spawn". Whatsamatter, clubnut? Had one too many Jehovah tent-revivals in your life? You make me sick.

5. What the **** do YOU care about dolphins, or what happens in prison facilities half-way around the world?? Huh?? It ain't YOUR countrys army there, so shut the **** up about it, and stay out of it, you fat lazy slob.

6. Uhh, excuse me? I lost my virginity to a HUMAN FEMALE. In your case, "consenual loss of virginity" does NOT apply if it involved four-legged hairy animals, or relatives.

7. If you feel so bad for those Iraqi prisoners, why dontcha go over there, and help'em out? No? THEN SHADDAP!! And mind yer own beeswax, you stupid fuckin' plank.

In closing, brush up on your Canadian history, asswipe. And learn to deal with things that concern your OWN backyard (or it'll be like school all over again, clubnut; you'll keep getting the shit kicked outta you, just because your mouth keeps spewing about what it knows NOTHING about).

Have a GREAT day, ya zealot.

Canuck1
(A.K.A. MR. Spawn)

From a NY Times article:

An illegal war for the profit of the Bush crime family, his oilpatch friends, the arms industries, and Halliburton?

What do you think?

Okay...you lost me here.

What exactly is your point in posting this? What are you trying to tell me?

That Bush and his cronies are corrupt? That Cheney and Rumsfeld are the real movers-and-shakers? That Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, thus making it an opportunistic grab at oil wealth for Bush and his cabal?

GEE, I'M SHOCKED!!

Look, I think you're beating a dead horse here, pal.

You're not saying anything that most people don't already know (or believe). It's like I kept saying to the moron before you in this thread:

What does THAT have to do with YOU? Or Canada? It ain't YOUR country or army there; these aren't YOUR country's casualties mounting every day; and it sure ain't anything that impacts YOU personally.

You want something to "crusade" about? How about writing to your M.P.'s or even the PM and urge them to put pressure on the White House to give back all that money to us that Washington collected on illegal softwood lumber dues ($3.5 BILLION and counting)?

See my point? Stick to what affects YOU. Pick and choose your battles, and not some idiotic cause you know you ain't gonna change.

Otherwise, you'll wind up like that moronic screwball clubnut on this thread: you'll be writing about fuckin' dolphins, sea plankton and bed sores.

You wanna wind up like THAT?? Huh??

No?

Then get with it, and FOCUS, awrght?

Sheesh.

Have a GREAT day.

Canuck2
(A.K.A. MR. Devil Spawn)

Canuck2,

If my attempt to awaken a dead board got you out of bed, I'm not sorry. Where're all those teachers now that we need them?

When you have a morally corrupt neighbor you let them know that you know. And don't believe that the huge deficites being heaped on the U.S. taxpayer does not effect its trading practices. There are many in the world to whom Canadians and Americans are just North Americans - no difference.

Without the Web, with that nutcase at the helm of the world's most powerful nation, Iraq quite possibly would have been nuked already.
Choosing to campaign against the VietNam war ended it sooner. Was that our business?

I probably have as much interest in beastiality as the dolphin - that is to say, nil. ;-)

LOL

I'll grant you a couple of valid points there, Bucko.

But still.....

As corrupt, inept and incompetent as the Bush administration is, you are still NOT gonna change the course of that huge juggernaut south of us. No way. You might...and I stress MIGHT....have had a chance if Great Britain was backing you (considering we share a monarchy and all); but as it stands now, the U.K. is backing up Bush on this mess. So now what are YOU (i.e. WE) gonna be able to do about it? Huh? Bash the U.S. over their heads with our hockey sticks?? For the American government to change its course, the pressure to change it MUST come from.....AMERICANS, i.e. government for the people, by the people, etc. Pure and simple. My opinion...your opinion...clubnuts opinion...means diddley-squat in this regard.

Okay, so you have a "morally corrupt" neighbour. Fine. And you "pointed it out" to them and everyone else. Okay-dokiee.

Now what? Who ya gonna call now? Ghostbusters?

And as for campaigning against the Vietnam War, well they were there for TEN years. What does that tell you? TEN YEARS. Repeat: TEN....YEARS.

And I disagree with you on one other point: most CIVILIZED folks in the world KNOW there is a BIG difference between Canadians and Americans. Just ask the Netherlands.

As for Iraq, if those third-world barbarians hated Saddam so damn (ha!) much, then it should have been THEIR job to overthrow him, not someone elses. Period.

Plus, I think you give way too much credit to the Web. It's just a forum for sensible agitators like myself to shoot from the lip, so to speak. Nothing more. And that includes my idiotic friend clubnut.

Glad to see you're not into the whole dolphin/beastiality thingy.

Have a GREAT day.

Canuck1
(A.K.A. MR. Devil Spawn)

P.S.

I just thought of something else:

What gives you (or ANY Canadian, for that matter) the right to be so sanctimonious about "morality", and accuse anyone else of being "morally corrupt"??

What, you figure that we somehow are entitled to any kind of moral highground or to engage in finger-pointing? Okay, here's a wake-up call for ya, Slick:

We don't.

Not anymore.

We gave that up our right to that self-righteous smugness decades ago.

And here's ten reasons why:

1. We send our troops overseas with inadequate equipment, armour and resources and get them killed (19 Canadians KIA in the Balkans and two more in Afghanistan while riding around in flimsy tin cans);

2. We treat the Aboriginals like shit (go visit a reserve and have a look-see);

3. We give someone a "life sentence" for 1st-degree murder, and let them out after 10 years or so, and piss all over the victims (can you say "Karla"?);

4. Our immigration laws are the laughing stock of the world (we let just about any slag in);

5. Adscam;

6. We arrest and detain some folks in this country for YEARS before they get a trial;

7. We are NOT permitted or guaranteed under our present Constitution the right to OWN OUR OWN PROPERTY. In other words, the government can step in at any time, for whatever reason, and say "Too bad-so sad...we own it now". Did ya know THAT?

8. Hockey is NOT our national sport; it's lacrosse;

9. Instead of promoting unity, some asswipe on The Hill says we're gonna have TWO official languages, and in the process have now promoted DISunity;

10. Our beer now tastes like donkey piss.

So before you slagging someone else, and finger-pointing about who's "morally bankrupt", maybe we should start mowing our OWN backyard first, n'est-ce pas?

Have a FANTASTIQUE DU JOUR!!

Canuck1
(A.K.A. MONSIEUR Spawn de la Devil)

Someone has far too much time on its hands.

With a name like THAT, you're talking about "too much time on ITS hands"???

Riiiiiiight.

Besides, I think some folks are most definitely NOT appreciating my refined, sardonic and ironic wit.

And I think most of them are from B.C.

Go figure.

Canuck1,

Brew yer own. Then the other nine points might just disappear.

ROTFLMFAO!!!!

Now THAT.....is funny.

I do believe I shall get started immediately on that.

Have a GREAT day (I know I will now).

Canuck2

Classic good vs. evil here. Eventually you must choose a side. You can tell the truth or spew vile like Mr 666. Venom that can only come from a spin doctor trying to justify the execution of your personal freedoms. Don't question what goes on in his back yard, while he plots the next move with his aryan brothers. "Don't get involved as we know best, we'll take care of you," orders the bully. Don't be fooled by the bullies attempt to wrap himself in the flag. The bully can dish it out but he can't take it. As soon as you push back he screams even louder, in what can only be a repeat of the tantrums that made his parents cringe when he was a toddler. The tantrums continue today as witnessed. Total bafflegab! Incoherent blather as he foams at the mouth. *LYFAO* He even tells us he's laughing his ass off! As if to keep us from thinking he may be just a tad imbalanced. The bully is the same as he has always been. Nothing new here. Twist and shout. "Twist" everything someone else says and then "shout" it back, then claim you have made a point. Shout you down is the idea. "Shaddup" the bullies yell, or I'll hit you. Bring it baby, I've been kicked by bigger, dumber horses than you!! But know this, you will be challenged. I will drop the gloves and I will continue to speak out against biggoted bullies.

The armed forces are not what they were. The proud tradition of fighting for freedom is probably over. We've entered a new era. Corporate multinationals in a global economic war using force to protect their assets. There is no honour in that, just ask "most" of mothers who lost sons and daughters in Iraq. Tens of thousands marched on Washington last month to protest. A few dozen showed up the next day to show support for the corporate line. A sad commentary on how they have been indoctrined to believe in what Fox news tells them each day. Change will come with education and that's the bullies worst fear, that we will all one day say enough is enough. Slice of Noam Chomsky anyone?

Ah..... peace once agian in the valley. Thanks Mr Tyee for the last word. You may now close this thread...

I am now starting a contest here. Once the winner can be verified, I PROMISE to award a $50.00 prize outta my own pocket (this is NOT a gag). The contest is simply this:

Can anyone pinpoint exactly what medication(s) clubnut is currently taking?

My own guess is prozac, and maybe a little bit of paxil. And considering the way he wildy swings to-and-fro with his emotionalism, I'd even lean towards guessing he takes some estrogen.

And by the way, clubnut, it's "bigoted", instead of "bigotted", and it's "again", instead of "agian". Also, "Twist and Shout" is one of my all-time favourite Beatles tunes, so please don't butcher it for your own ends, ok? Have you NO shame??? Jeeeez.

Anyone entering this contest, please note second prize is two cabbage rolls (homemade)and a cup of hot coffee.

And I prefer "Devil Spawn" over "666", please-and-thank-you.

Have a GREAT day.

Canuck2
(A.K.A. MR. Devil Spawn)

P.S.

With all those times you've been "kicked by bigger and better horses", maybe ya ought to stick to safer hobbies. Mammals that are bigger than you seem to have a thing about hurting you.

Go back to the dolphins.

..and your favorite TV show? Second City TV, Yosh and Stan Schmengie, the Schmengie Brothers, who also enjoyed a good cabbge roll and cup of coffee. I'm drawing a blank though...who was the neighbour who made the cabbage rolls and coffee....Mrs. Brown?? Maybe you are a hoser, I thought for sure you were a wacko American militia member. Standing guard some where on the border, at 2 am, looking to shoot anything you detected moving in with your infrared scope.

But I digress, this is not the best fuckyou contest I have been in before, and you are not as funny as you think you are. I know humorous, I've met humerous and you sir, are not humerous....

Am I eligible for the Fifty? You said anyone.

With everything I've said about this country (its history, as well as its politics, sports and immigration policies) in the last gazillion threads AND with a name like "Canuck", you STILL thought I was an American?? Are you a fuckin' moron?? Or are you just plain stupid??? Huh??
And yes, that was a reference to "Second City", a fine, fine program. Mrs. Vilve Yachke made the cabbage rolls, wiseguy. See? You don't even know THOSE details of Pax-Canadiana, do ya? That's because you're too friggin' busy poking your nose into things you'll NEVER change, instead of concentrating on the immediate problems at home. At least religious zealots like YOU are in the minority, I hope you stay that way.

And NO, you are NOT eligible for the $50.00 because YOU'RE THE FRIGGIN' GUINEA PIG!! OKAY??? Besides, you didn't even come clean with what goddamn medication you're taking.

So get with it.

If you EVER read anything in front of you here, I'd have a heart attack, I swear.

Ya dimwit.

Have a GREAT day.

Canuck2
(A.K.A. MR. Devil Spawn)

P.S. I know STUPIDITY, sir, and you ARE stupid. Gawd, I wish all stupid people could be executed, ya know? Why can't we do that? Why can't we just kill all those who are destined to be stupid all their lives?? It'd be doing them a favor, I swear. Step right up, clubnut. Salvation is at hand for you (at least it'll stop with your atrocious, child-like spelling mistakes).

The theory of multiple intelligences suggests that there are a number of distinct forms of intelligence that each individual possesses in varying degrees. The theory, originated by Gardner proposes nine forms: linguistic, musical, logical-mathematical, spatial, naturalistic, spiritual, body-kinesthetic, intrapersonal (e.g., insight, metacognition) and interpersonal (e.g., social skills).

Gardner also emphasizes the cultural context of multiple intelligences. Each culture tends to emphasize particular intelligences.

Principles:

1. Individuals should be encouraged to use their preferred intelligences in learning.

2. Instructional activities should appeal to different forms of intelligence.

3. Assessment of learning should measure multiple forms of intelligence.

No one is stupid, we simply are intelligent in different proportions.
M

Devil Spawn:
Please elaborate on how you would rid this world of stupid people. I assume you would also want to execute morons, dimwits, the intellectually challenged, in short anyone who could not meet your minimum standards. Which by the way are minimal. I'm curious, as a trained killer, what method would you use? We've asked this kind of question before and Colin, a veteran here, was kind enough to share his experience. How do they train you to become a killer and how will you react in your first fire fight? It's a mystery most times, but you seem pretty comfortable with the idea. Tell us Herr Doktor, what would you do? Mass execution, public or private displays to teach the rest of us not to be so dumb? You obviously have an answer for everything and therefore smart enough to make these types of decisions for the rest of us.

You said:

That's what we religous zealots refer to as our new creation/revisionist view and motto. Here in Atlantis our view is that Dolphins are the highest form of evolution. We swim naked with the dolphins every Friday, in a cleansing ritual. We aspire to one day, achieve their life of peace and harmony. ( I bet you'd really like to have your hands around my throat right about now...eh?)

Coming Clean: You asked for it, so here it is. It's not so much one drug, but more of a cocktail or soup if you will. As with most of you I like to start with intraveinus caffeine, just to get the heart started in the morning. I found that the herbal bark tea just wasn't giving my solid 137 lb frame the boost it needed in the morning. Obviously I enjoy fish for lunch.....

Speaking of religeous zealots, did anyone see Frontline last night, "The Last Abortion Clinic?" While still legal, the pro-life radicals are now using the law to limit access to abortions all over the US. Mississippi has only one clinic left and they have pro-life zealots outside their doors every hour they are open. To me, they are the real zealots. Oh yeah and the Brass at the Pentagon.... almost forgot the militay arm of zealotry there!!!
Goodbye freedom, goodbye choice, hello slavery, I think I'm gonna cry... (Everly Bros remix...)

Examples:

1. Everytime there's a traffic accident, and some idiots slow down and rubber-neck to gawk at it and thereby cause MORE problems by doing so....take them out and liquidate them;

2. Everytime you see homeless people camping out in the taxpayer-funded streets when the local shelters are way below capacity and these types don't go to them because "they don't like the rules"....take them aside and liquidate them;

3. Everytime there's some tragic or horrific incident that befalls an ordinary family, and some religious figure (priest, rabbi, pastor, whatever) starts bleating about how "HE works in mysterious ways and we should be thankful"...take HIM outside and liquidate him;

4. Find out the main one responsible for the abolishment of capital punishment....and liquidate him;

5. Take all of the Bloc Quebecois and label them as what they REALLY are (traitors and seditionists to the Dominion) and....well, you know.

6. All those who firmly believe that young offenders are "children" and should still be treated as such....liquidate them (along with said young offenders);

7. Excluding those who have a LEGITIMATE reason for having a psychological handicap and deserve and need compassion and understanding, and those who have no such reason and in effect are simply "stupid" by virtue of their day-to-day actions....should be liqidated;

8. It is recognized that some (emphasize SOME) individuals have the possiblility that they COULD cease being stupid, and become productive, intelliegent members of society; therefore, all college/university graduates will be given a 5-year period after their graduation to PRODUCE (i.e. socially, economically, socially, even politically). Failure to produce anything significant towards the betterment of society after that 5-year period will result in....liquidation;

9. All forms of ORGANIZED religion shall be banned; members of society will be told to practice the worship of their deities in the privacy of their own homes; any attempt to impose/expose their own religious beliefs on/to society as a whole.....shall be liquidated.

10. It shall be recognized that the Three Stooges are comedic gods and will be enshrined in history and become mandatory-reading for those too stupid to even have a sense of humour (starting with textbook distribution in B.C.). Failure to adhere to this philosophy...will result in liquidation.

And as for "public executions"? Nope. Wouldn't waste my time. There'd be no educational value in it, because like common sense, you cannot teach someone to no longer be dumb; either you are....or you're not. Period.

So watch out clubnut.

I'm running for public office. Better start looking for that isolated island to live on.

Have a GREAT day.

Canuck2
(A.K.A. MR. Devil Spawn)

One last thing, just who is it I won't be voting for? You and your liquidation manifesto! Gutless, yellow belly that you are, you're not going to sign your name to such drivel. Piss off blow hard.

LMAO

"Liquidation Manifesto[I]"

Damn...I LIKE IT!! Give you credit for at least one thing, clubnut: ya sure know how to label.

"Gutless yellowbelly"??

Well gee now...I don't exactly see YOU posting YOUR REAL handle anywhere hereabouts. Besides, with a name like the one you DO use, I'd be a little careful about who I call "gutless".

"Piss off blow hard"???

Golly, now I'm REALLY at a loss here; you asked for examples of "stupidity", and what I'd do about it....then you start with the name-calling. Look, keep your scrawny 137-lb. sewer gate shut, ok? Being skinny AND stupid is no way to go through life, son (or is it "missy"? Or does it matter in your case?).

Remember this formula:

Stupidity = Incompetence = DEATH.

Take YOU for example, clubnut: because you have demonstrated that you truly ARE stupid and dumb, it will lead to you doing or saying something reckless and incompetent, thus leading to catastrophic consequences for you, and those around your immediate proximity.

This formula is tried, tested and true.

100% of the time.

From world leaders, to dopey little morons like yourself.

Ya can't escape it.

At least under my Liquidation Manifesto (gawd, I LOVE that!), folks like YOU would be marginilized....and more importantly....contained, so that your stupidity wouldn't contaminate, or put anyone at risk.

So in THAT vein, it's YOU who can piss off, ya mouthy little dimwit.

Canuck1
(A.K.A. MR. Devil Spawn, author of "The Liquidation Manifesto")

...one other last thing.... In your world the
Tyee would not exist... wonder if they consider your posts threatening in any way? Hmmm... either way this good bye. You're boring me now.

Good.

I've been telling you to shaddap and get lost for a while now.

If you weren't so stupid, ya would have got the point long ago.

Good.

I've been telling you for a while now to shaddap, and get lost.

If you weren't so stupid, you'd have been gone long ago.

Maybe now instead of belly-aching about the worlds woes, you'll actually have time to DO something about them. And if you REALLY wanted to accomplish something, you'd start with the problems in our own country first (or maybe even inside your own skull).

Either way......

there's the door. Don't let it hit you on your scrawny ass on the way out.

Canuck1
(author of the "Liquidation Manifesto")

That came at you TWICE, because I was polishing the treads on my Bradley Fighting Vehicle while typing.

Echo [/I][I]Echo echo...
The keep out, yellow tape still covers the door to this room where the brawl took place last week. But the echo of truth know rings through out the empty room, now that the stories of torture and dumping chemical weapons have made it to the MSM. You probably want to know my sources don't you? Like I've said before GNN.