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BC No Longer Calls Self 'Best Place on Earth'
The boast is vanishing from official branding. Where did it go, and why?
Blast from the past: In April 2007, VANOC CEO John Furlong (left) and then Premier Gordon Campbell unveiled licence plate naming B.C. 'The Best Place on Earth.'
-
Love that Brand!
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Unethical to Brand Oil Sands Ethical?
It's human nature to seek an honourable reason to avoid a pressing problem. But this distraction is deadly.
Pssst, did you notice? British Columbia is not "The Best Place on Earth" anymore.
Since Premier Christy Clark's March swearing-in, the bold advertising slogan of the Gordon Campbell era has slowly and quietly disappeared from government websites and letterhead. You can still find it if you look, but blink and it could be gone.
How could a province with a misery-filled neighbourhood like the Downtown Eastside and a nation-leading child poverty rate ever call itself best-on-Earth in the first place? How did the politicians and bureaucrats decide to deep-six the slogan?
The decision, I am told, was not even of the "back-of-the-napkin" variety, because no scrap of paper was used to record it.
My July 28 Freedom of Information request for "records including, but not limited to, briefing notes, opinion polls and market research studies, regarding the continued use, modification or elimination of the Province of British Columbia's 'Best Place on Earth' slogan and sunshine-and-mountains logo" was answered by the Government Communications and Public Engagement office. First I was told that the Office of the Premier and ministries of finance, jobs, tourism and innovation, labour and citizens' services and open government had no records. Then I was told no records existed.
How could a large, sophisticated organization re-brand or de-brand without a cost-benefit analysis, polling or consultation with marketing experts? I made a supplementary FOI request to find out how the first one was processed and handled.
"I sent out the no records letter to the applicant and he has complained, asking for an explanation as to why there are no records," wrote information and privacy analyst Janice Alexander to Citizens' Services executive director of operations and human resources Denise Champion on Aug. 23. "We will call him and advise his next step is to complain to the (Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner) so I wanted to give you a heads-up on that, and ask is there any messaging/context that GCPE would like us to relay when we speak to him?"
Champion responded to Alexander: "Please explain to the applicant that, after some discussion, a decision was made to remove the slogan, however, there was no written directive issued. The decision is being implemented as opportunities occur in order to keep the cost of the change to a minimum. The sunshine and mountains logo is still in use. We cannot produce records that don't exist."
Short history of 'The Best Place on Earth'
The "Best Place on Earth" and the sunshine-and-mountains logo (is it setting or rising?), was launched in 2005 and registered with Industry Canada's Canadian Intellectual Property Office the following year. It appeared on ICBC's Vancouver 2010 Winter Olympics licence plates in 2007, replacing the traditional "Beautiful" above a photograph of Mount Garibaldi and the VANOC inukshuk logo.
But something funny happened on the way to the biggest show on Earth. When Campbell put on his salesman-in-chief hat and attended the Beijing Olympics in 2008, he called British Columbia "Canada's Pacific Gateway" instead of the "Best Place on Earth." With a pinch of sarcasm, I asked him, why? If B.C. is really the best place anywhere, why not tell the world?
First the world has to find B.C. on the map, he said.
Jobs, Tourism and Innovation minister Pat Bell offered few hints about the slogan's fate when he was grilled by NDP critic Spencer Chandra Herbert in a May 5 budget estimates debate.
Before obsolete, slogan was meant 'to help motivate British Columbians' explained Minister Pat Bell.
"Yes, I am proud of the province and I think it's the best place on earth, but it was probably not the best way to attract people from other parts of the world who think their little section of the world was the best place on earth," Chandra Herbert said to Bell. "I'm just wondering: is 'best place on earth' shelved for now, and we're now not going to see that anymore, and we'll see 'Super, natural B.C.' in its place?
Bell answered that "Best Place on Earth" was a "broader brand” used only in B.C. "to help motivate British Columbians."
Here you go
Clark, who made "Families First" her leadership campaign mantra, has evidently found a new slogan to call her own: "Canada Starts Here."
The slogan was revealed Sept. 20 in Prince Rupert to kick-off the B.C. Jobs Plan tour. Otherwise known as the campaign to replace the fall election campaign that her party was scared of losing.
The blue, white and green logo -- the same colour scheme as Clark's favourite hockey team -- appears to be a three-storey stack of shipping containers, with the "Canada Starts Here" slogan in bold, white capital letters on a blue background.
Residents of Charlottetown, P.E.I., where Fathers of Confederation historically met in 1864, would argue Canada started there.
Residents of Cape Spear, Newfoundland, Canada's easternmost point, are already "to-it-and-at-it," starting their day while teetotalers in Victoria are only halfway through dreaming of their next orange pekoe.
And then there's the logjam at CIPO, which counts 52 entries for slogans containing "...starts here," like: "The Party Starts Here" (Global Beverage Marketing Corporation), "The Internet Starts Here" (PSINet), "Happy Starts Here" (Reckitt Benckiser LLC), "A Cleaner, Odor Free Home Starts Here" (Church and Dwight) and "The Buck Starts Here" (Carlyle Cattle).
The Gastown Business Improvement Society had "Vancouver Starts Here," but abandoned the trademark in 2009.
The federal finance ministry's Canada Savings Bonds program shares "It All Starts Here" with cereal-maker General Mills. Microsoft has the simplest of all: "Starts Here."
There are another 35 entries in the CIPO database for "...lives here" slogans, including TSN ("Hockey Lives Here"), City of Surrey ("The Future Lives Here"), Vancouver Board of Trade ("Vancouver Spirit Lives Here") and CBC ("Canada Lives Here").
Oddly, the "You Gotta Be Here" slogan from the Tourism B.C. Olympic ad campaign is not in the registry.
Welcome to BC Christy
Last week, Clark went one step further and rebranded the BC Liberals in her own image.
Clark team's make-over, rebranded to de-emphasize the word Liberals.
You'll be excused if you think the party is now "BC Christy," because those are now in big, red letters and "Liberals" and "Clark" are in smaller blue letters. The logo contains a circular, stylized portion of the B.C. flag, but it's without the Union Jack that figured so prominently in the government's 1980s and 1990s "spirit flag" logo.
It may be a subtle admission that the party name is a liability, especially when small-c conservative members of the free enterprise coalition have a new alternative in the John Cummins-led BC Conservative Party. Clarkites fear Cummins and Co. will split the vote in the 2013 election and enable an NDP victory, thus inspiring cheeky headline writers to say "BC Liberals stop here." ![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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- Why Blackberry's Embrace of HTML5 Is Good Karma
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- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
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- Metro Vancouver gas prices peak at record levels
- Ottawa posts $9-billion deficit in March despite pledge to avoid spending spree
- BC phases out AirCare to focus on fighting bigger vehicle emissions
- Tsunami senors to be dropped into deep sea off of Vancouver Island
- Student groups file court challenge against Quebec protest law
- ...while on the streets, pirates and ninjas put aside mutual animosity to join student protests
90
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pianosaurus rex
33 weeks ago
New TV series
Well,
As far as the video of “Canada Starts Here” being Christy’s new mantra, here is another series beginning this fall:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnGp1jcf01Y
RickW
33 weeks ago
Form Over Function....
....is a cheap way to create the impression one is doing something - while hiding the fact that it is the same old way of giving us the business under the shiny new logos.
Gary
33 weeks ago
I don't care
As long as they wipe out all evidence of Campbells screwing this province and refrain from naming any projects after him EVER (which I and many will vigorously oppose) they can erase whatever they want. As for rebranding anything "Christy" they are making a big mistake because we already think in the "campbell/christy" mode.
Grumpy
33 weeks ago
Best Place on Earth
Never was, unless you were a friend of Gordon Campbell.
realisticman
33 weeks ago
It's getting better all the time, getting so much better...
"a misery-filled neighbourhood like the Downtown Eastside".
Yet there is always resistance to new projects and developments.
The City of Vancouver shows leadership!
"The Clean Streets Project.
(vancouver.ca/greatbeginnings/cleanStreet.htm)
Clean streets are something that every neighbourhood wants. This project expands street cleaning to a 65 block area within the city’s founding neighbourhoods. It also engages social enterprise organizations to provide additional recycling at special events. ..."
Brooms & Shovels!
"Increased street cleaning in the core area of the DTES was initiated by Council in March 2008 under the Clean Streets Initiative. The program involves additional City street cleaning shifts, the addition of a Street Use Inspector resulting in better education and enforcement, and increased lane micro-cleaning (litter collection on foot using brooms and shovels) by the social enterprise organizations United We Can (UWC) and Coast Mental Health Foundation (CMHF). Both social enterprises provide easy-to-access employment opportunities to those with barriers to traditional employment. Additional recycling at special events is being provided through UWC’s Urban Binning Unit program. The work involves the use of mobile purpose-built recycling carts to collect deposit beverage containers. Collected containers are returned for deposit refunds to the UWC bottle depot on East Hastings Street. ..."
[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED.]
"In fact, CMHF has reported that one of their members is now able to survive on micro-cleaning wages alone, without relying on former employment in the sex trade industry. ..."
motorcycleguy
33 weeks ago
It sure was
the best place on Earth, until fairly recent history. That is why so many of us are putting in a lot of effort to make people aware of how we are losing it...with no help from the MSM. I wrote to Sarah McLachlan about the "You Gotta Be Here" ads...did she realize the backdrop behind here was about to be torn, trenched and tunnelled for penstocks and powerhouses? Not much "Super Natural" about draining alpine lakes 60 feet in depth for IPP's. With BC taxpayer subsidized private power going to California, it is more like "America Starts Here".
freewilly
33 weeks ago
I kinda like it
I kinda like it. "Canada Starts here". For those of us living in Nootka Sound there is some truthiness about it.
But what goes with the slogan, maybe a neanderthal foot print, some ancient hockey stick or an old beer stubby half buried on a coastal beach....
snert
33 weeks ago
Maybe, just maybe
"How could a large, sophisticated organization re-brand or de-brand without a cost-benefit analysis, polling or consultation with marketing experts?"
someone decided to actually make a decision without costing the taxpayer a bundle of money.
snert
33 weeks ago
Grumpy
It still is the best place on earth, even if you are down and out. Why do you think the less fortunate keep coming here from other parts of Canada?
motorcycleguy
33 weeks ago
people coming here
actually....looks like that is not true any more either..."Desperate flight from B.C. begins anew" ...headline in the Times Colonist
ophelia3
33 weeks ago
So...
I was never fond of the "best place on earth' slogan in the first place. I thought was unimaginative and arrogant. Beautiful British Columbia, while perhaps still not the most creative but far more appealing. While not a fan of The BC Liberal party I must applaud them for removing this with as little expense as possible, unlike the Harper Government who spends millions to re-brand our military.
Fish-counter
33 weeks ago
BC still is the best place on Earth - for David Hahn
It all depends on your perspective. Slogans like that benefit only the marketing executives that think them up. They do nothing to promote tourism. Why else is tourism down everywhere? Could it be the lack of imagination or effort perhaps?
For all my complaints, BC is the best place on Earth. The scenery and the wildlife are unmatched anywhere else. The only problem - and it can be a small one if you work at ignoring it - is the people who live here.
You have to work hard at ignoring the people, but it can be done. Canada in general, and BC in particular, were settled by giants but they are now managed by mental midgets. How we made the transition from courageous pioneers to cringeing bureaucrats is beyond me, but we did it seamlessly.
BC is one of the few places in North America with no control over groundwater extraction. You can dig as many wells as you like and suck every last drop of water out.
It is one of the few places where you can ride your unlicenced and uninsured ATV over other people's property, trashing it as you go, without fear of being charged. In last year's tourism promotion the City of Nanaimo featured an ATV driving through the backwoods and over a stream. I rest my case.
Grumpy
33 weeks ago
@snert
Er....maybe because we have a mild winter, certainly not for the welfare.
In Canada, homelessness is an embarrassment and when can't even afford to even live in a dingy apartment, living on streets when it is 5C is a lot better than living on the streets when it is -10C.
Please bring back the 90's, there was the good times.
midnightsimon
33 weeks ago
Interesting that the 'Canada
Interesting that the 'Canada Starts Here' logo sports the colours of the flag of Cascadia.
settingprecedent
33 weeks ago
NEW BRAND
how about... BC - A Place on Earth
Cool Hand
33 weeks ago
Best Place On Earth Slogan...
... Always seemed a little arrogant and egotistical esp. when signage is placed at highways leading into BC from the U.S. border to the AB border.
Super Natural British Columbia was a superb slogan. Why fix somethin' when it ain't broke?
Tourism BC/Expo 86 flooded the airwaves of the huge California market with the Super Natural British Columbia meme during 1985, one year prior to Expo '86.
And during the summer of '86 the Hwy 99 fwy. from the U.S. border to Vancouver was flooded with Cali plates - even makeshift campgrounds along the corridor were full.
Yeah... well... last weeks Ipsos-Reid opinion poll on the "Who would make Best BC Premier" question had these results:
Clark: 47%
Dix: 29%
Cummins: 17%
Sterk: 6%
... which adds up to 99%. Typically leadership numbers eventually are reflected in party preference numbers. If that's the case, the Libs increase by 1% from the 2009 election, the NDP drops by 13%, the BCCP rises by 15% and the Greens drop 2%.
Looks like the BCCP increases mostly at the NDP's expense.
In that same vein, today Manitoba has a provincial election and NDP premier Selinger is the 3rd best rated premier in Canada, just one spot above Christy Clark according to ARS.
And the MB NDP government basically has the same economic policies as the BC Libs, which the BC NDP mostly abhors.
Looks like a 4-peat for the MB NDP gov't and good on them! I actually respect that NDP gov't.
Kreditanstalt
33 weeks ago
Banana republics
...are said to be places where the statues, monuments, and public holidays (logos and slogans? all change after a regime change.
I guess when the left-wing socialists replace these right-wing socialists again we'll see if it's really true.
But big deal. Waste of time and money anyway. These people are far, far out of touch with the reality in which we taxpaying peasants live...
G West
33 weeks ago
Well we know one thing for sure
Christy Clark wouldn't make the 'best' anything unless being a laughing stock is the criteria for judgement.
Witness her latest blatant interference in the administration of justice as she directs her stupidest cabinet minister Shirley Bond to 'order' Crown to have the riot trials televised.
You cannot make up shit like this - no one would believe it.
stver
33 weeks ago
Cool Hand
The IPSOS numbers you presented can't have been the same numbers that Christy was reading when she decided against calling an election. If the Liberals are relying on Christy Clark to win the next election for them, they are in worse shape than I thought they were. She is genuine lightweight. There is not an ounce of substance to the lady. By the time the next election campaign is finished, it will be a fight between Dix and Cummins.
COHO
33 weeks ago
Just comment ...
Those of you who spit on BC and Canada should move elsewhere. Lazy ass and busy mouth is a negative recipe as it always been ...
BC / Vancouver is FANTASTIC PLACE TO LIVE, PERIOD !!!
If you will stop asking for handouts and start to work and mainly appreciate, your life will get different color and perspective.
P.s. Gordon Campbell was a GREAT LEADER and his portfolio as premier of BC is outstanding in every-way for any positively thinking british Columbian. Period !
skarpes
33 weeks ago
sounded so arrogant anyway...
just like Gordon Campbell
hg
33 weeks ago
Just Comment
Yeah sure, if you are a banker, lawyer, developer, stockbroker or politician. The rest of us working stiffs are worse off than we were 20 years ago.
dorothy
33 weeks ago
The funny thing is
That apart from the nonsensical hubris and the cheezy blab, this probably is, er, the best place on Earth. Not in the way it's being MANAGED, if you can call it that, but certainly the land itself qualifies. The climate, the natural resources, the landscape, the PLACE is tops, and so in my head it has always carried the title and always will. What that does do is make it even more painful that it becomes the backdrop for such miserable variations in living - 'if you can call it that'. It is one thing to screw around with cvilization and decency in the face of a bleak, inhospitable desert landscape, quite another to do so here, where we literally 'have everything'. Shame!
Fish-counter
33 weeks ago
Criticising Canada and BC is not spitting on anything, Coho
In case you hadn't heard, this is a democracy and we don't have to swallow propaganda just because you say so. As for moving elsewhere - why don't you? That is such an old saw, you should be ashamed to use it.
Most of us didn't like Gordon Campbell, or his crazy decisions. I personally support the HST, but not the lying way he sneaked it in.
The BC Ferries fiasco is like a very bad book. An overpaid CEO, a second bad buying decision and continuing breakdowns, usually just before a long weekend. speaking of which, we are due for one on Thursday.
"The Best Place on Earth" is an empty slogan and it is done like dinner.
dave49
33 weeks ago
YES!!
I long been offended that my taxes have been used to promote that 'over-the-top' superlative logo. Part of it was marketing, but an equal part was to propagandize British Colombians into overlooking the faults of Gordon Campbell's Fiberal government.
Sometimes good things come to those who wait.
VivianLea Doubt
33 weeks ago
yes, the best place on earth...
I call British Columbia home, and I certainly think it is a stunning place, with a diversity of people that is quite amazing, not to mention some of the most interesting geography on earth - but really, almost everybody shudders at the vulgarity of 'the best place on earth' as a slogan. 'Super, natural' may have been marginally better, but tourists are drawn to the kinds of experiences they can have, not the marketing slogans of unimaginative drones.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I think of hard-working volunteers in communities all across the province creating art and cultural and culinary and agro-tourism events - bringing together amazing talents and skills to showcase their home places, and what they offer - only to be blindsided by fools who cut them off at the knees at every opportunity...
Nobody shall miss 'The best place on Earth', for it passed away long ago. What new hucksterism shall be unveiled looks to be as febrile - after all, virtually the same cast of characters creating it.
realisticman
33 weeks ago
It's all Good
Good to see the comments here. Good to see the passionate feelings expressed for our home. It really is a wonderful place.
snert
33 weeks ago
Grumpy
So you can come up with a better place that they would rather be down and out?
Frank
33 weeks ago
Manitoba NDP
Congrats to the NDP for winning a 4th straight majority in Manitoba!
And for having the best economic growth in Canada over the last 5 years!
And doing it by putting people ahead of corporations and bankers.
Well done!
Frank
33 weeks ago
Manitoba Liberals?
Won 1 seat :)
The Cons won 20 and the NDP won 36.
Frank
33 weeks ago
Ontario
Nice to see the Ontario Liberals espousing principles that the BC Liberals attack the NDP for saying. Anyone who thinks the BC liberals are "liberal" should read the platform of the Ontario Conservative party. You'd swear they were written by the same person, and probably were.
Still, it will be nice if the Ontario NDP hold the balance of power after the election on October 6th.
Cool Hand
33 weeks ago
Frank...
I agree. Imagine that! But that means you must support the Manitoba NDP government's:
1. Lowering of corporate taxes from 18% to 12% and eventually to 10% - Just like here in BC;
2. Elimination of corporate capital taxes - Just like here in BC;
3. Additional corporate tax credits - Just like here in BC;
4. Manitoba Hydro building large environmentally-destructive dams for power export - Think Site C dam just like here in BC;
5. Manitoba Hydro signing expensive power purchase agreements with IPP's - Just like here in BC;
6. Allowing fraccing to occur in oil/ng fields in Southwest Manitoba (Waskada area) - just like here in BC;
7. Having the highest poverty rate in Canada with no plan or targets for elimination (major issue on CBC Manitoba tonight stream-lined) - just like here in BC;
8. Having a premier (Doer) who supported the Afghanistan mission - just like here in BC;
9. Will not introduce anti-scab labour legislation even though presured by MB Labour Fed to do so - here in BC, BC Libs more left as they retain anti-scab legislation;
The BC NDP opposes all of these Manitoba NDP government policies!!! So can I now infer that you are a BC Lib supporter??!!! ;)
G West
33 weeks ago
Duh!
Breathes there the man, with soul so dead,
Who never to himself hath said,
This is my own, my native land!
Whose heart hath ne'er within him burn'd,
As home his footsteps he hath turn'd,
From wandering on a foreign strand!
If such there breathe, go, mark him well;
For him no Minstrel raptures swell;
High though his titles, proud his name,
Boundless his wealth as wish can claim;
Despite those titles, power, and pelf,
The wretch, concentred all in self,
Living, shall forfeit fair renown,
And, doubly dying, shall go down
To the vile dust, from whence he sprung,
Unwept, unhonor'd, and unsung.
Surely the simple fact one is attracted to and appreciates the place one 'calls' home ought not blind anyone to the simple fact that such 'affection' is a commonplace and not a characteristic of one particular place.
The fact that a homeless man living in a squat in the DTES can see the northshore mountains on a clear day can be a source of comfort only for someone as blind to nuance and ignorant of reality as Gordon Campbell and his band of merry idiots.
I thought the NDP actually gained a seat didn't they Frank?
Frank
33 weeks ago
Luke
Glad to see you're a fan. One day you should take that final step and vote NDP like millions of others.
But if the only things you like about them are that Manitoba has a high degree of poverty then I can see why you'd be sadly disappointed with the NDP in BC or federally.
Since you're such a fan of poverty I can see why you're so conflicted.
Just be glad you're not living in Ontario where the Liberals are promising stuff like healthy snack programs for elementary kids. That would fly in the face of your "poverty for all but me" mantra.
Strange that Liberal BC and Liberal Ontario couldn't match the economic growth of Manitoba over the last 5 years isn't it? Why is that exactly?
Frank
33 weeks ago
Grasping at straws
"8. Having a premier (Doer) who supported the Afghanistan mission - just like here in BC;"
This one made me chuckle since I did too. Quite vociferously on the Tyee too I might add. Sorry you missed it. I guess that makes me a Liberal according to you?
happy
33 weeks ago
Frank
I would like to hear your take on #9. Is that not anti-union?
Frank
33 weeks ago
happy
Could be, do you think the NDP is anti-union?
If that's the case you should tell all those people who say unions run the NDP. Come to think of it, I think you've said that eh?
Normally I'd say you can't have it both ways but I'm sure you guys will claim otherwise.
dorothy
33 weeks ago
Beg to differ...
"..the simple fact that such 'affection' is a commonplace and not a characteristic of one particular place."
Now as for me, I left the country behind in which I was born and grew up, and crossed the globe in order to come here. I am not going back.
Yes, it is 'characteristic of one particular place, at least for some of us.
Frank
33 weeks ago
Hmm
"1. Lowering of corporate taxes from 18% to 12% and eventually to 10% - Just like here in BC;"
I hate to tell you this since you say Conservatives are are right-wing and not a "middle of the road" party like the BC Liberals but this is one of the planks in the Conservative party of Ontario's platform :
-Reduce the basic corporate income tax rate from 11.5 per cent to 10 per cent by 2013
So a 10% corporate tax rate would appear to mean the BC Liberals and Ontario Conservates are the same?
So which is it?
Frank
33 weeks ago
Let's see if Ms Clark sinks or floats like a witch.
Manitoba NDP and Ontario Liberals both claim their provinces will have the shortest wait times. That's a strange thing for a Liberal party to say isn't it?
Because I thought you BC Liberals were always saying healthcare was out of control and we couldn't do anything about wait times except throw our hands up in the air and let the private sector take over?
Looks like some Liberals really are "liberals".
Frank
33 weeks ago
Luke
You must have been really upset by that Manitoba win for the NDP. You were posting on Yahoo under their story on the article.
"Cool Hand Luke 4 hours ago
May I make a suggestion to the good people who live west of Winnipeg. Move the border of Saskatchewan to Charleswood, and your problems are over."
Considering the ruling Saskatchewan party is the renamed Conservative party (after many members were sent to jail, which really hurts one's electoral chances) it does kind of say where you stand politically doesn't it?
Do you prefer the Ontario Conservative platform over McGuinty's?
Will it be your worst nightmare if the Ontario NDP holds the balance of power in that province next week?
happy
33 weeks ago
Well it IS curious Frank
Why a socialist party would allow scabs to break strikes with their blessing. Can you imagine the uproar in this province?
It obviously works for them though, superiour economic growth and all, as you pointed out.
"If that's the case you should tell all those people who say unions run the NDP"
No. I've said a dozen times its my opinion the PUBLIC unions run the NDP. Not the CAW,USA,IUOE (the mighty 115),IBT,IAMAW or the defunct IWA, all of which I belonged to at one time.
No, its the BCGEU, CUPE, BCTF and all the affiliates in the public sector fronted by the walking mullet Sinclair that dictate policy in the NDP.
Private sector workers, including union members? Fend for yourselves....
Thats not having it both ways. Thats spelling it out in detail.
All you did is answer questions with questions.
Frank
33 weeks ago
As the world turns
In other provincial news even the Alberta PCs remembered the word "progressive" in their name and elected a "Red Tory" as their leader.
If even Alberta is moving to the Left its a great day indeed.
Frank
33 weeks ago
happy
Okay, so tell all those people who say PUBLIC unions run the NDP about your and Luke's belief that the NDP is anti-union.
How is that answering a question with a question?
Besides, my questions weren't aimed at you, I know you'd never answer them. I assume because you don't care about similarities in political platforms of various parties spread across various provinces. But Luke apparently does, well, when it concerns the NDP. When it concerns other parties, then not so much.
Back to the union thing, I don't know if you ever read Winnipeg newspapers and their opinion pieces and editorials and the comments below. But if you did you'd find most anti-NDP Manitobans would find your and Luke's assertion to be pretty laughable. They tend to claim the NDP is pro-union. I realize they are actually living in Manitoba so their opinion doesn't count.
Frank
33 weeks ago
If you're scoring at home
This is about the tenth time Luke has been caught saying one thing on the Tyee and saying the exact opposite on another forum on the same day.
Frank
33 weeks ago
Luke and Saskatchewan
Luke posted on Yahoo his support for Brad Wall's Saskatchewan Party yet didn't mention that they don't support the HST.
Why is the HST good for BC but not good for Sask? Luke?
Frank
33 weeks ago
No response?
Seems like a reasonable question since the HST was considered by its defenders here in BC to be the single best economic policy the world has ever seen and yet Brad Wall hasn't adopted it.
Would it be considered piling on if I pointed out that Brad Wall's Saskatchewan Party, whom you support, agrees with the BC NDP and not the BC Liberals?
Will that prevent you from sleeping?
happy
33 weeks ago
Whoa, slow down there tiger!
Some of us are working you know......:)
Now that was a bit harsh. When have I not attempted to answer your questions?
OTOH I'm still waiting for a clear answer to the ONLY question I asked you to start with....the one about the scabs? Your opinion?
"I assume because you don't care about similarities in political platforms of various parties spread across various provinces."
Well I am NOT a political junkie by any means but I can read.
I read about the Nova Scotia NDP promising no tax increases IF elected.
And then bumped the HST to 15%.
And cut subsidies to ferry routes.
And even brought up the subject of maybe having to have a look at government worker pensions in the future. And not in a good way if your on the recieving end!
So I am dimly aware of events beyond my own self interests.
No I don't read Winnipeg papers but I would imagine those who say the NDP is pro union are exactly like me. They are referring to government unions.
"I realize they are actually living in Manitoba so their opinion doesn't count."
Does not compute. Some sort of prairie thing?
Frank
33 weeks ago
happy
I already gave my answer, what didn't yopu like about it? I've been telling you for years the NDP is not an arm of the union movement and you've been saying otherwise. Now you're asking me to confirm what I've always said?
By all means run through the hills and towns and farms of BC proclaiming the NDP as anti-union. I will happily send you parcels of food to speed you on your way.
Do you need any money for the trip? I'm sure the NDP will bankroll you. Are you still unclear on this subject? Or next week will you forget all this and tell me the NDP is union-controlled?
"No I don't read Winnipeg papers but I would imagine those who say the NDP is pro union are exactly like me. They are referring to government unions."
Nobody cares if you or anyone else is referring to public sector unions or not. Please tell me how it changes the argument in any way?
The facts are what they are. Conservatives and Liberals in Manitoba claim the NDP is pro-union. Claim the NDP is dominated by unions. You and Luke are now agreeing with me that they're not.
Thank you for surrendering and adopting my position.
If you need claification go read the Winnipeg Sun and look for articles by Brodbeck. He's an NDP-hater and you'll always find plenty of rabid anti-Dippers in the comments thread below. Tell them what I've always told you about how the NDP is a political vehicle for progressive-minded people and not an arm of the union movement, see if they believe you. And if you want to, tell them its public sector unions you're referring to and see if that makes any difference in their responses to you.
You're on the path to enlightenment, don't shy away now.
G West
33 weeks ago
Please re-read Dorothy
What's 'commonplace' is the fact that, for all intents and purposes, everyone has some kind of emotional attachment to a particular place. And that's why the sentence started with THIS phrase: "Surely the simple fact one is attracted to and appreciates the place one 'calls' home..."
Please note the inverted commas.
Frank
33 weeks ago
Anti-scab legislation
By the way, BC brought in the legislation in 1993 (NDP government). Quebec had adopted it in 1977 (not an NDP government).
The NDP has been in government in Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Ontario and Nova Scotia since that legislation was first brought in. Those NDP governments didn't adopt it. See a pattern there?
Although I see the Sask Green party supports it.
G West
33 weeks ago
Dunno happy, you might not know this though
In the area of labour reforms legislation was passed in its first mandate which made it easier for unions to obtain certification; the legislation also gave employees increased powers to move disputes to binding arbitration. Doer did, as mentioned, reject a call by party members to introduce legislation that would ban replacement workers in labour disputes.
The minimum wage was increased to $8.50 in 2008. Remind me when BC got to that level?
In late 2007 temporary foreign workers and modeling agencies were included under the Employment Standards Act, to prevent worker exploitation.
Furthermore, on that point about union influence, like the NDP in many provinces, Manitoba has a ban on political donations by private corporations and organized labour.
snert
33 weeks ago
G West
Ah, yes but when outsiders start agreeing with your assessments then it becomes a stronger reality.
freebear
33 weeks ago
Brand and Logo facade!
And another way to pay buddies to consult on the -re-branding'!
Of course there are other 'best place on earth' places in the world; so pretty smug to say BC's the best.
It is similar to: 'God bless America'; I always say: what about the rest of us?!
FOR families
CHRISTy clark'S
forSAKES old logo (read the bold!)
pwlg
33 weeks ago
best place on earth
I found the response to the "slogan" from Pat Bell interesting:
..."Best Place on Earth" was a "broader brand” used only in B.C. "to help motivate British Columbians."
That's refreshing for the Liberals, an actual true response to a question and one most BC residents were not aware of.
However, there was one purpose to use this slogan, to brand it into BC residents minds and hearts; the 2010 Games.
ICBC used its public money to flog this slogan on its dog's breakfast licence plate.
ICBC needed a phrase on its plates so it could sell them to the naive to recover the millions of dollars in "donations" to VANOC. Not only was cash given to VANOC but so was a donation in kind, free insurance for more than 2500 vehicles.
The provincial government used a variety of crown corporations to shuffle money off to the cash-short VANOC so it could hide the final cost of its share for the travelling country club call the Olympics.
By the way, I wonder if Mr. Mackin could look into ICBC records to see how many claims were filed for vehicles being used by VANOC, security forces and the IOC and its "family" and how much money was paid out for these claims.
realisticman
33 weeks ago
Rep by Pop
Congratulations to the Manitoba NDP on their win. This is another example that shows that rep-by-pop is unlikely to ever happen, even though there have been many calls for it since the Conservative majority in the House. In Manitoba the NDP vote went DOWN by 2%, from 48% to 46% but they still won a majority winning 37 seats, while the Conservatives, with just 2% less of the popular vote (44%) won only 19 seats.
Proportional representation would have given both parties a virtual tie in seats. It's no wonder that here in BC there was strong opposition to proportional representation in the BC referendum from the left wing. The Manitoba election result explains just why.
Leading up to the next federal election do not expect the federal NDP to be campaigning on proportional representation, even though they go on and on about Harper ruling with a majority of seats yet only 39% of the vote, because they know that if they have a chance they want the same unbalanced power.
Next time you hear protestations about unfair majority government and demands for proportional representation don't get too excited. Remember it was Gordon Campbell that at least gave BC the chance to move to that.
KitsBeach
33 weeks ago
Beautiful BC and Super, Natural BC
I always liked our old slogans "Beautiful British Columbia" and "Super, Natural British Columbia"...who can argue with them..? But 'best place on earth" seemed a little to braggy and un-canadian...
Frank
33 weeks ago
r'man
Unfortunately your numbers don't add up.
I'm afraid that the final numbers, less than 40%, show there wasn't much support for it on the Left nor the Right because neither side wants a minority government when they get in.
By the way, once the Liberals are dead the NDP will be winning a lot of elections and you'll be wishing you had supported pro-rep.
G West
33 weeks ago
snert - just so you know
The conversation was not with you - Been there, done that - why bother?
realisticman
33 weeks ago
F'ank
I did support it, so you are wrong again there.
You can break out the Baby Duck if you want to but if I were you I'd be looking at trying to understand why my party had lost 8,600 votes.
Frank
33 weeks ago
realisticman
I'm wrong because you supported it? That would be great but where did I say you didn't support it???
I supported it too. It didn't pass. That's life.
"but if I were you I'd be looking at trying to understand why my party had lost 8,600 votes."
Meh, the party has been in power for 12 years already. Your BC Liberals lost a lot of votes last time around but I don't recall any great concern on your part as to why that was.
Since I don't even live in Manitoba, I'm not going to worry about it either.
Frank
33 weeks ago
r'man
Oh now I see. I was talking federally, you I guess were talking provincially. Hopefully we're now on the same page.
realisticman
33 weeks ago
Conservatives Up
Congratulations to the Manitoba Conservatives on their 6% increase in the popular vote.
I'll let Frank explain, or spin, this.
VivianLea Doubt
33 weeks ago
@GWest
Thanks for the poetry. Been too long missing in these threads.
I admire your clarity, as always.
Frank
33 weeks ago
Conservatives quit
Congrats to the Manitoba PCs for blowing a big lead and losing an election the pundits were sure they had in the bag even just a few months ago. I'm sure the leader of the Manitoba PCs didn't think he'd be resigning on election night.
Fish-counter
33 weeks ago
Best place on Earth" doesn't have the most polluted sea mammals
swimming around it. Like the resident orcas for example. They are even more polluted than the belugas in the Gulf of St. Laurence, and that is a stretch.
We do have stunning scenery and incredible wildlife and we should promote that to our tourists, but we should also fix the problems too.
In 1907 a whaling station was set up in Pipers Lagoon, Nanaimo. They killed 97 whales in the first year and for some silly reason they shut down in 1911. The whales just disappeared as if by black magic. I am sure there was no government inquiry about the extirpation of a whole ecosystem loaded with whales because it was business-as-usual.
Can you imagine the tourism value of a population fo 300 large whales in the Strait of Georgia today? It would be the province's largest single industry, yet it was pi**ed away for a golden shower of short-term profit.
Nanaimo has a miraculously-successful spawning channel in Bowen Park, in the centre of town. Thousands of people flock there to see the Coho spawning in November. It is absolutely breathtaking what has been done with imagination and a few dollars. It was done by hard work and partnerships, not by an empty slogan.
MGS
33 weeks ago
Gordon Campbell
The day Gordon Campbell left for Britain a stain was removed from our land and because of it BC is a better place than it was while he occupied space here! Perhaps in the near future we can improve our province even more by removing those who would sell it to foreign interests at fire sale prices!
lynn
33 weeks ago
New Errors. Don't Believe Them. The Worst Ever.
New Era......
BelieveBC.....
The Best Place on Earth.....
BS.
Branding to 'motivate' the citizenry to behave while they impose the necessary structure and laws to be readied for the stealing of the public goods by special private hands. Facilitated by one more tasty "spoonful of sugar" slogan that helps the grand theft of public assets go down ...."in the most delightful way".
Just more pure poppycock by the quisling lowlife BCRealEstate crew selling off this province....and true representative government along with it.
A New Era.... of Child Poverty.
BelieveBC.... in The Highest Child Poverty Rate in Canada.
The Best Place on Earth.... To find The Working Poor..and Children Paying the Price for The Good Times of The Few.
Fish-counter
33 weeks ago
I just hope Prostetnic Vogon Campbell can stay sober in Britain
He is a promoter - you have to give him that much, but they drive on the wrong side of the road all the time over there. Maybe it will work out for the best. He may be a stain removed from here, but I wonder what high jinx he will be up over there. He is such an easy target to hate.
BC is not an easy place to rule. We are an ageing population, with loads of experience and all the skepticism and cynicism that goes with it. It is one of the few places where people actually get fired for being too good at their jobs.
Is there any chance we could swap our politicians with those from another country for a year, if only to keep their mouths from the trough? If BC Ferries can buy three dud mega-ships from Germany, can we get Angela Merkle as part of the deal? Christy Clark would enjoy a year in the GDR.
borg
33 weeks ago
Angela Merkle
Fish-counter, I don't think Germany would go for the deal. They already went through a government like Christy Clark and the BC Liberals in the 1930's until 1945 and look what happened. I don't think they want to go there again.
freebear
33 weeks ago
BC Not Gordon's anymore!
BC; where the politician's smiles are forced!
Former BC Boy
33 weeks ago
Hooray
Triple yeah :)
I was embarrassed as a former BCer (1968 to 2003) to see that slogan. I still love my province and I go back every year to cycle and travel around the wonderful province.
However, no place is the best place on earth. We should be happy that there are many fabulous areas all around the planet with wildlife, people and spectacular views.
Beautiful BC is sufficient as is Supernatural BC :)
Though one funny last note: many South Koreans (I have lived in Korea for eight years) call Vancouver second heaven.
Fish-counter
33 weeks ago
I would happily swap Christy Clark for Johanna Sigurdartdottir
As the prime minister of Iceland, Johanna is hott. She also leads and alternative lifestyle, which is even hotter. It would be cool to have a swap-out of political leaders in the western world. They are only figureheads, after all, so they might as well look good and do surprising things.
Christy and Johanna are both big improvements on the former premier of BC, who was indistinguishable from a dirt-bag.
happy
33 weeks ago
Oh come on now Frank
Thats not what I call a "clear" answer. I asked your opinion. Do you agree with it or not.
I recall you not letting up on me until I admitted whether I voted for Vander Zalm or not.
Fairs fair.
"Nobody cares if you or anyone else is referring to public sector unions or not. Please tell me how it changes the argument in any way? "
In a fundemental way of course. Governments have zero to say on how a private company spends its money and it doesn't really matter what flavour is in charge in Victoria.
OTOH the public workers are compensated directly by Victoria, and if a public union "friendly" government, shall we say, is handing out the cash, well.....I shouldn't have to finish my line of thinking on how it changes the argument.
Politics ARE strange though. Read an article in the G&M today on the Manitoba election. It noted that the same Winnipeg voters that elected the NDP here voted for the Cons en mass in the federal election.
(And just in jest....I couldn't help but smile at a picture of that Selinger dude in the paper. He bears a striking resemblance to Gordo! Expensive suit, full head of silver hair, big teethy smile and those same designer glasses. Little things amuse me....:)
"You're on the path to enlightenment, don't shy away now."
Well hallelujah brother! I may be saved! Lets have a rousing good old baptist style revival! Tommy would be proud.....
(Modeling agencies West? What ARE you talking about. "Escort" would be a more correct term....)
G West
33 weeks ago
Don't think so happy...
There is a difference - young people who are in the publicity and advertising business have often been taken advantage of - sometimes by their agencies - sometimes by their parents...a little like the kind of thing we do to agricultural workers here.
Now you're judging people by their 'appearance'?
Hmm, maybe you should reconsider that tack.
happy
33 weeks ago
West
I made a point out of saying "IN JEST" to differentiate myself from all those who DO comment on appearance - such as "just look at those eyes!"
Forgive my pathetic attempt at humour. I realize we must be oh so serious all the time.
It won't happen again.
:)
G West
33 weeks ago
Naw, no offence taken
That's the problem with the written word - 'in jest' can be taken several ways - And, truth to tell, there IS a quirk in the prairie character which appears not to be bothered by the disconnect inherent in voting NDP provincially and Conservative federally.
As far as Saskatchewan (which is my modest area of expertise) goes, I've always put it down to a couple of things:
1. Residual pride in John Diefenbaker; and
2. The aging population in rural Saskatchewan - all the young people having left a generation (or two) ago, the residual voters are now, on average, suffering from advanced symptoms of senile dementia which makes the discomfort of the obvious contradiction less of a problem (see you're not the only one who can make a lame joke from time to time).
In fact, much as I hate to say it, I firmly believe that in rural Saskatchewan today you will find clear evidence of widespread prejudice, racism and intolerance the equal of anything in the Texas panhandle or Alabama.
Drop into a small bar or cafe in any medium size town, order a coffee and a piece of pie and listen carefully to the conversation....
happy
33 weeks ago
I wouldn't be proud of Diefenbaker
The greatest Canadian sell out of all time, the cancellation of the Avro Arrow.
I have more respect for Douglas.
I'm not prone to conspiracy theories but I've often wodered if the CIA had compromising pictures of him dressed in ladies clothes or something to make that incomprehensible decision.
Never been to small town Sask, just the cities but I don't think they dress up in sheets yet and stand around bonfires....
G West
33 weeks ago
I do too...
Respect Douglas more than Diefenbaker... They don't need the sheets and bonfires - but, if you check your history you'll find that there is a real connection to the KKK in Saskatchewan's past...http://esask.uregina.ca/entry/ku_klux_klan.html
And, the not so distant past:
http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpost/news/story.html?id=01bbc304-6a89-481a-8184-2cb2c4bef98d
Frank
33 weeks ago
"Thats not what I call a
"Thats not what I call a "clear" answer. I asked your opinion. Do you agree with it or not."
No. I agree with the NDP.
"In a fundemental way of course.
...
OTOH the public workers are compensated directly by Victoria, and if a public union "friendly" government, shall we say, is handing out the cash, well.....I shouldn't have to finish my line of thinking on how it changes the argument."
I think you should have continued because I'm not getting your argument at all. Do you remember the point? It was that the NDP in Manitoba, Ontario, Saskatchewan and Nova Scotia are anti-union because they didn't pass anti-scab legislation like the PQ in Quebec and the NDP in BC. You haven't said which side you agree with yet you keep asking me which side I agree with. Instead you have brought up a new argument which is that the NDP is controlled by public-sector unions and not private sector unions.
Which means your argument boils down to the following: that the "anti-union" NDP is controlled by unions. Does that line of argument seem logical or even rational to you?
"It noted that the same Winnipeg voters that elected the NDP here voted for the Cons en mass in the federal election."
Yep.
zalm
33 weeks ago
Uh-uh
"Never been to small town Sask, just the cities but I don't think they dress up in sheets yet and stand around bonfires...."
No, but they do run down natives at the roadside. By accident.
I think.
Smap
33 weeks ago
Best place on earth?
Hardly. Here's a tip for you misguided lot who blindly nod your heads in agreement with this, at best, specious claim about our fair province: take a little trip beyond the rain clouds every now and then. BC is beautiful, no denying it, but that highly-inaccurate slogan serves only to justify the province's financial rape of its oh-so-priveleged citzens regardless of their blessed-yet-socially-democratic program of Medicare. "Best" by all means can include a lot more or at least many different things than these. Hey, I have an idea. Let's follow more of the same paths that lead nowhere as already demonstrated by our big brother to the south. Predolescent jingoists!
zalm
33 weeks ago
Them damn licence plates
The wife wanted one of those damn licence plates. I didn't. Caused a rift in our relationship that still persists, even though she rolled the car last month, and now the plate doesn't exist any longer.
The Fiberals have a lot more to apologize for than they know.
Smap
33 weeks ago
Best place on earth?
Hardly. Here's a tip for you misguided lot who blindly nod your heads in agreement with this, at best, specious claim about our fair province: take a little trip beyond the rain clouds every now and then. BC is beautiful, no denying it, but that highly-inaccurate slogan serves only to justify the province's financial rape of its oh-so-priveleged citzens regardless of their blessed-yet-socially-democratic program of Medicare. "Best" by all means can include a lot more or at least many different things than these. Hey, I have an idea. Let's follow more of the same paths that lead nowhere as already demonstrated by our big brother to the south. Predolescent jingoists!
happy
33 weeks ago
This ain't workin'
You don't get what I'm saying, I'm not getting you and now I'm more confused.
This started by my asking:
"I would like to hear your take on #9. Is that not anti-union?"
IMO this response hardly answered that:
"Could be, do you think the NDP is anti-union?"
To which I gave my opinion, since YOU asked. I did not "bring up a new argument" as you are now saying. That was my answer, which was obviously lost in the translation between us.
Reset.
No, of course they are not ANTI-union, private or public. BUT....they have nothing to offer private sector union members. Zero.
Public sector is the complete opposite and it cannot be denied the BC Fed and the NDP are joined at the hip. The BC Fed will do whatever it takes to have a NDP government elected for their own self interest, their members, who belong to public unions. Which is what, less than 20% of BC workers.
That was my point, which I may have repeated once or twice in the past...
That was why I found it so strange about the Manitoba NDP. Allowing scabs is against everything the NDP stands for. Everything.
I just wondered how you reconciled that.
And so this latest response "No. I agree with the NDP" means....what? You APPEAR, to me, to be speaking out both sides of your mouth but I'm sure you don't think you are and can't understand why I can't understand.
Whew. Tiring and fruitless in this medium I'm afraid.....need beer and face to face.
To you and West, always a pleasure, checking out now.
Cheers.
Frank
33 weeks ago
happy
"Public sector is the complete opposite and it cannot be denied the BC Fed and the NDP are joined at the hip."
The NDP is a political vehicle. Its support is not limited to unions and as countless comparisons have demonstrated the connexion between the NDP and unions is formalized but in actuality less than the connexion between right-wing parties and business.
You object to the formal connexion, as many of us in the NDP do. But you never acknowledge that the actuality is far less than the conspiracy theory promoted by you and others.
Yes, unions support the NDP because its in their interest to do so. Their existence is threatened by other parties and not by the NDP so it would be pretty weird if they didn't support the NDP. That said lots of union members don't vote NDP.
I'm sure the majority of teachers, social workers, people in the medical field and so on also support the NDP. Again, its not some sort of evil conspiracy, its just that their interests align with the policies of the NDP.
Its pretty obvious that all political parties tend to have bases of support in particular sectors of the economy. Yet the Right never wants to acknowledge that.
Frank
33 weeks ago
happy
"That was why I found it so strange about the Manitoba NDP. Allowing scabs is against everything the NDP stands for. Everything."
And my point was pretty simple. It obviouslyt isn't according to Dippers. And your argument that the Manitoba NDP, the Ontario NDP, the Saskatchewan NDP and the Nova Scotia NDP are all against everything the NDP stands for is ludicrous.
The argument for not allowing scabs is mainly economic. It shortens labour disruptions. And obviously most NDP members don't believe there's any necessity for implementing such legislation just as it isn't necessary to pass a law telling people they have to help their neighbour or donate to charity.
Put that shoe on the other foot. Why do the BC Liberals and Saskatchewan Green parties support the anti-scab policy?
Why are they out of step with all other Liberal and Green parties in Canada? Can you explain that? Based on your logic the BC Liberals and Sask Greens are against everything the Greens and Liberals stand for.
What about Liberals, Greens and Conservatives adopting socialist policies in every province? Whether it be healthcare, public education or public monopolies, they adopt policies based on socialism instead of capitalism. Which is against what they claim are their principles.
Do you support the existence of public schools? Isn't that against everything you believe in?
"I just wondered how you reconciled that.
And so this latest response "No. I agree with the NDP" means....what?"
It means I agree with the NDP policy on this subject. I fail to see what's so hard to understand about that. People shouldn't cross picket lines but if they do they shouldn't be thrown in jail.
"You APPEAR, to me, to be speaking out both sides of your mouth"
Give me an example.
dorothy
33 weeks ago
G West
I don't think we are on the same page. Everyne, including yourself, seems to be talking about how the place is being dealt with by the administrators and manipulators that crawl on its surface. I am thinking , and speaking, of the land itself, and pointing out that it has qualities that might well mark it as truly the best place on earth. These are two separate things. We don't all feel affection for the place we 'call' home. If that were the case, there would not be migrations. I consider myself privileged that I could choose the place to 'call' home (meaning of 'inverted commas' is obscure to me), and I don't see the politcal crap as other than a passing annoyance. When all these people are dead and their greed and folly is quelled in the final way, there will still be mountains and streams and trees, and isalnds, and so on.
dorothy
33 weeks ago
sorry!
Islands, and so on.
G West
33 weeks ago
dorothy
Once again, I don't think you've read (and you certainly haven't understood) what I'm saying.
My view is that we all (in one way or another) hold allegiances which are more emotional than practical to some largely fungible idea of 'home'. For some of us it's the place we were born, for others it's the place we moved to...therefore the inverted commas!
That's what I meant by the experience being 'common' to human nature - i.e. a 'commonplace'.
Whether or not the 'political crap', as you so delicately put it, is merely a passing annoyance or something more profound and important is going to be a matter for each person and his or her family to decide.
Certainly, I can't imagine you'd try to argue that the historical relevance of how important such things as the political crap might be would not be a losing proposition for you.
Without that motivation - as you so astutely point out - there would be no migrations and we (as Western Europeans - or East Indians - or Asians - or Africans) would still be huddling in the lands of our birth, staring, as it were, at the scenery.
The key is now, and always has been (whether we're talking about British Columbia or Bulgaria), exactly how much of the political and religious bullshit each individual is prepared to countenance before moving on. Just as you left Denmark and my ancestors left Russia, England, Ireland, and Scotland.
Hope that's clearer.
If I might also be so bold to add, as a kind of post script, that my First Nations friends - at least some of them - have told me in no uncertain terms that, from their point of view, their 'HOME' hasn't been the same since we visitors dropped in and decided we were taking over the keys to the front door....
Cheers