Free Speech Includes Everything

I agree that people get all icky about free speech when the subject matter isn't 'pc'. It's kinda like how people only care about saving the cute, fuzzy animals.
You can exercise your right to be utterly wrong and offensive about anything - sort of. Funny thing, free speech. You can say anything you like, as long as you don't express your dislike for other races, deny the Holocaust or criticize Israel, and apparently the Olympics are off limits too.

Opinions, no matter how offensive or far out there, if they are criminalized or supressed, do not make a society that defends free speech. I say let people speak their minds. If you find something offensive then use your own freedom for rebuttal. Free exchange of ideas, no matter how crazy.

Defending free speech means defending free speech we may find offensive, or even disgusting. Even these internet comment sections are policed by moderators and 'suggest as offensive' panic buttons. What are we guarding here? Everytime you hit that button you become a member of the PC police force, guarding us from all things deemed unfit for public consumption. I prefer to form my own opinions.

Bill, you gotta lotta nerve.....

Bill, the march to a fairer society was hijacked on the day the Olympics came to Vancouver. Billions of dollars that were to be spent on those less fortunate were hijacked to pay for toys that only the wealthy can make use of - people who can best afford to pay for their own.

When in past years, protestors such as myself tried to point out the duplicity of governments in diverting necessary tax dollars to profit-making enterprises that could easily pay for their own party themselves, we were at best ignored, and at worst castigated as morally bereft for ignoring the emotional value of expensive fun in no-fun city. There was never any attempt made by local or provincial leaders, nor any significant media to discover the issues in conflict, and balance the interests.

The interests of the marginalized were themselves marginalized in favour of those who already benefit magnificently from society's largesse toward their position - tax advantages, sponsored athletics, expenses-paid conferences, this list goes on and on....

Not one whit of creativity was expended by any of our leadership or media on harmonizing the two interests - those of the marginalized who stand to benefit not at all (and who in some cases stand to be harmed by cuts to services) and those of the wealthy who pay many of the taxes in order that society not become more violent and unfair than it already is.

It's funny how the wealthy can so quickly forget how privileged they are to be in their position, thinking, perhaps that society has always existed as it is for their benefit, without any sacrifice in preceding generations.... Just let us have our fun for a few months, they say, before we have to go back to paying for the poor unfortunates that we'd rather not see every day anyway.

So to suggest, without a clue in your own head how, that protestors whose issues were completely ignored or excoriated as societally invalid, come up with more "creative" ways of protesting that doesn't affect some privileged people who likely may not recognize themselves the sacrifice that residents of BC are paying so they can play in the sun for 15 minutes - Bill, that's not only unfair, but nefarious as well.

Further,

Every scintilla of protest is immensely valuable in that it provides a clarion call to other cities who have bid, or are thinking of bidding for the Olympics, to ensure that they insist the Games be conducted frugally and fairly, without "greenwashing" or "poverty-washing" if I may coin a term, and that the IOC root out its prodigious corruption and wastefully expensive franchise before attempting to impose artificial standards on anyone else.

The pot has called the kettle black for far too long. Mr. Rogge, take your crooked circus and leave town on the next train! There's too much important work to do here to waste more time and effort on your disneyland extravaganza. And may the unfortunates of the next city have better luck dealing with your criminal organization.

Bill is right on the money...

Points well taken all around. Real civil disobedience is peaceful, and those who partake are ready to face the legal ramifications to make their point. That's where the Victoria protests failed miserably.

By the way...I don't recall Jacques Rogge or the IOC ever being convicted or even charged with any criminal act.

make_up_another really nailed it on the head

Any restriction on freedom of expression is abhorrent and the examples given by make_up_another are excellent in their illustration.

Furthermore, the whole idea of "needing a permit" to protest and "free speech zones" and laws that permit police to enter your home and take down "olympic signs" are completely obscene.

The "olympic sign in the window" for example. It has been pitched as a way to prevent the unauthorized use of the olympic brand for commercial gain. Well, it must be demonstrated that a commercial transaction took place for commercial gain to have been achieved. That is simple enough police work. It doesn't even involve Tasers (yet).

I can't help but get a little chuckle at this thought. Just as the aliens in "The War of the Worlds" were defeated by a simple bacterium, these very Olympics are in danger of being kaiboshed by a simple virus known as H1N1.

Right now, there is a lot of hype and airplay and fearmongering around the H1N1 virus. Even to the point of getting people to take the vaccine that otherwise would not by indicating that there is a shortage of the vaccine (classic Madison Avenue technique).

Plenty of out-of-province friends and associates are asking me about this as they are thinking about coming here for the "Games". It is quite interesting how much influence I have on them either coming or not coming based on how I answer their H1N1 question.

And, of course, there is the multiplication effect.

It is quite funny actually. You don't have to march to protest.

Why Oppose the 2010 Olympics?

That is the real question. Why? If one isn't curious about that question, there will be no understanding. In real democracies, citizens are permitted to discuss and truly debate decisions about public resources, like spending $2 billion for a 17 day party.

As UBC Prof. Chris Shaw explains clearly, most critics of the corporate driven IOC SUPPORT the Olympics, and there is a long tradition of seeking to have them in the same place, every four years (a winter location and a summer location in Greece). This would remove the boondoggle that currently exists, which is really a real estate development model run by the IOC, which pays no tax anywhere in the world, and generates millions of dollars for itself and its partners, all derived from government tax money.

If you haven't already, PLEASE read Five Ring Circus. Then get back to us and comment. If you haven't read it, please hold off opining on a topic that needs understanding. The book confirms much, and disturbing questions come to light:

Why does the IOC pay no taxes?
Who are the real estate developers behind the Vancouver bid?
Why are mega projects paid for with tax dollars?
What are the true costs of the Games?

The Olympic Games, once considered the pinnacle of athleticism and fair play, have become a cesspool of greed, backroom deals and the wholesale trampling of civil liberties. In Vancouver, preparations for the 2010 Games have had a substantial negative impact on the environment and has resulted in the "economic cleansing" of the poor and homeless.

http://www.newsociety.com/bookid/3995

No one is blind to the IOC...

Everyone is familiar with the excesses of the IOC. They're the same excesses that exist in governments, NGOs, religious organizations, activist groups and the United Nations. The UN loses more to corruption in a year to pay for several Olympics, yet the entire world supports it.

So why do we support organizations like these? Because they appeal to the higher ideals of humanity. When opponents of these organizations can come up with a vision and a message that matches or surpasses their higher ideals, they'll win support.

But creating and sustaining a negative "culture of resistance" just won't cut it as a message. Combine it with violence, vandalism, and uncivilized behaviour, and you negate every right and privilege living in Western democracy offers.

A Ruling Class Benefit....

I have in the past written here (and elsewhere) about the real and obvious reason for the ongoing existence of "the poor" in class society: The impoverished exist at the bottom of the class structure because the ruling class wealthy at the very top take too large a share for themselves from the finite economic pie. And this includes of course, when the ruling class wealthy get preferential treatment over the greater needs of the poor, from the taxation gathered resources of the capitalist state, even driving it into debt if necessary. (Though "they" will blame pittance social programmes to "the masses" for the storm of debt, of course.)

Of which we have around the Olymipics, but one example amongst many of that robbing of the resources of the state, out of the very mouths of the poor working class, to serve the greater prioritized ends given the ruling business class interest. (There will be some token tickets made available to the poor and mid working class strata, of course, to attend the Olymics,to assuage some "liberal" ruling class consciences, but you know that the overwhelming presence there will actually be the "well-heeled", who will also be profiting from the profit accumulation going on behind the "free market" scene of the Olympics. It is overwhelmingly "their" show and for "their" benefit. You should know that too.)

There is no mystery to it. It is apparent to anyone with eyes willing to see, and a brain that can add 1 + 1= . Of course, a real social conscience also helps.

Were the marbles thrown by cops pretending to be protestors?

Although the denial of funding to special needs children and the pros and cons of the logisitics of the games are critical issues, the real story, the one being suppressed by MSM, is the way that same media is manufacturing dissent and consent. It is a story that protestors ignore as well.

The Times Colonist recently ran six full pages covering the start of the torch run. Understandably (since we’ve come to expect pro corporate bias), all articles, with the exception of one, were cheering on the games. The one article that covered protest events made mention of the many protest activities and, as Tieleman points out, little on the reasons for protest.

However, the article went further. The authors quote Sgt. Grant Hamilton, who claims, “… in past Olympic events there has been terrorist activity”. By raising the terrorist card the true media mindset becomes clear. It is obvious that the authors couldn’t restrain themselves from linking legitimate protest behaviour to terrorism, thereby justifying spending billions on security, and at the same time manufacturing consent.

That the public has unquestioningly “consented” to being pro-Olympics is not only illustrated in the example given by Tieleman … about the young man with disabilities … it is further highlighted by the fact that caring and sharing individuals, who have gone begging for pennies to fund organizations the Liberals have chosen to punish through funding cuts, have also bought into the modern day obscenity we call the Olympics.

For folks that have lived through WW 11, and/or those that have read “A Study In Tyranny”, “Mein Kampf” or “The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich”, the ease with which the global village is being led away from reason is truly scary.

Just like they used the charity bingos and commitment of gamblin

dollars to charities and non-profit who provide community valued services!

Would Surrey have voted in favour of more slot machines if they new that the monies would not be going to the charities and non-profits who lobbied on behalf of the province?

Selling surgeries to Saskatchewan?

THis artcile is lame in that it seems scared to open up the can of worms that is : if you don't support the Owelimpics, whether you protest or not, you are stigmatized as a complainer, party pooper, or whatever.

This is using bullying tactics to garner owelimpic support.

And how reporting on one individuals loss of an opportunity to be a flame carrier (oh let us choose the disabled person for greater effect!)is more important than all the marginalized citizens left behind, while the olympic orgasm builds to climax.

Don't you just hate it when someone crashes the corporate party?

Whenever people are being set up as fundamentally hatred-worthy, protections by civil liberties are soon to go. Civil liberty talk becomes all about setting the speakers up as, in essence, restrained and principled, so at that point when they decide protestors simply have gone "too far," and civil liberties are dispensed with in favor of beat first, piss on later, they have demonstrated to themselves that what in truth is their sadistic indulgence, is really, is incontrovertibly, absolute last measure necessity to keep anarchy at bay. It's all about setting things up, so that when they later turn all militant brutal, they feel no guilt. With the way Bill sets this up, with self-involved protestors taking away chance of a lifetime thrills, you know what path he's on. Count him amongst those who will effort to crush those who dare think and behave independently.

I wonder if someone was once awakened out of a fugue-like, sick happy trance, by someone's independent action? Is this story about dreams spoiled and lifetime trauma incurred, or awakening to the fact that there is life outside of McHappy town, and it's to be preferred?

irony...?

"It's ironic that one young man with disabilities who was wrongly deprived of his rights by a handful of protesters gets massive media attention while hundreds of vulnerable children with special needs also being wrongly deprived of their rights to treatment by the provincial government are barely a news story."

Ironic is not the word I would have chosen, Bill. While I am much given to the use of irony as device, somehow the use of the word here just sticks in my throat.The protesters see real tragedy in what is happening to children deprived of treatment - treatment that is a 'right' in Canada. Perhaps the 'optics' concern you so greatly in relation to your livelihood, yet I am reassured by many posters here. In a society that must make choices about how to allocate resources that are finite, apparently some of us see that the rights of the individual must always be balanced with the rights of the community (what Boyle calls the universal versus the particular). In the larger picture, to cut funding for services needed by the many to ensure that the party will go on for the few is blatant cronyism (to be polite)...in the narrower view, maybe we should ask if the young man would have given up his opportunity to carry the torch if an offer was made to restore funding? But whatever his hypothetical decision, one person's disppointment cannot be compared with the plight of a whole community of people. It is just that basic and elementary.

chance of a lifetime?

"I strongly disagree with disrupting the torch run or preventing volunteers from their chance of a lifetime to carry the Olympic flame in their own home town. It discredits any legitimate protest goals."

I can't get over "chance of a lifetime". Along with small children saying to the "news" camera, "once in a lifetime opportunity", meaning just to watch a van to shining van PR stunt.

In 1936, Hungarian gypsies played their fiddles to the passing torch, only to be blood on the wall a few years later. Chance of a lifetime indeed.

Of course they weren't the only ones to regret their support for the pseudo-Greek torch relay staged by the Nazis. Back came Hitler's finest to invade the countries along the route to Berlin.

How must people chosen to carry torches have felt when this happened? They'd had their chance of a lifetime to make shit look like a birthday cake.

Disillusionment

Mr. Tieleman, I heard you speak at an event concerning libraries a couple of weeks ago, and at the time (I'm new to BC) you impressed me as an intelligent voice.

It didn't take long to burst that bubble.

Sure, you make passing reference to cuts to special needs kids, and sure, you won't quite go as far as some and urge the trashing of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

But blocking the torch relay "discredits any legitimate protest goals" and protesters need to find ways to "get creative" and be nicer?

What the hell do you think people have been trying to do for the past several years but creatively try to get the attention of the mainstream media, so a little light could be shed about the obscene amounts of money being thrown at this elite party, at the expense of not just those special needs kids, but tens of thousands more who don't even have the protection of those kids' moms?

And with you adding to the chorus, those people who've been trying to get this message out have been trivialized and portrayed as a fringe element.

Well, guess what? Being against Vancouver's hosting of the olympics has become pretty mainstream. Just look at the polls, and refrain from falling for VANOC's "we just have to educate the public" line. The more the public looks under the covers, the more they realize we've been sold a bill of goods, that the more "fortunate" of us will pay for, for decades, while those with little will have even less.

People like Chris Shaw and others have been trying like hell to "creatively" get your attention, but it is only now, when they get in the way of a Nazi-derived ritual, do they achieve that, and even get a brief message about the province's cuts to those who deserve assistance. But they get trivialized by weak minds like your own, for your own inability to really look at what they've been trying to tell us for years.

At the library event you made much of your own "independent voice." Sadly, you seem like nothing more than a shill for the rich.

yes! immigrant

I am a senior with a large once-fancy perambulator I use to carry heavy objects around. The recent signs on it said "Trash NAFTA, not Afghanistan". Black and white on shiny photo paper, one on the right, one on the left and one in front, 8.5xll. About two years now, I think. No problem in the liquor store, supermarkets, or around town in general.

This past weekend, I changed the signs to suggest Hitler, not the ancient Greeks, started the Olympic torch relay. Same size, paper, position, everything.

My dog and I got downtown just as the opportunity of a lifetime passed through. We passed a couple of men faking tundra stare, and then a smallish throng of people who were still shaking their Olympic tambourines and flags, and patting their Olympic beanies. People with nothing to shake or pat were still saying wow, clearly thrilled to bits.

My Hitler signs, dog and baby buggy and I got only slightly-filtered disdain. A well-dressed young woman about 30 cooed "Hitler started the Olympics, noooooh," and her pals tittered.

Of course, once in the market, it was all hugs and howls, and people jotting down Barry Larkin, to look up on wiki, and "flaming underpants" to watch on youtube. And do it, do it, great story.

The real fun began, on the way home, when I stopped in at the Safeway for toilet paper. A manager, yes they get younger and younger as you age, found me within 10 metres of the door and told me I couldn't walk around with "propaganda". This is what is so delicious about wrinkles. I the cat, got my paw, very gently on the mouse. While he was saying something about leaving the store, I twitched my grey hair and headed for the fish, then the milk, and then the toilet paper.

He showed up again, once I'd chosen a checkout, where he stood as if to help me put my groceries into plastic bags and the cart. I smiled in my charming way, because I had a baby buggy, and my stuff didn't need bagging, and I was so charming, he scuttled to the next checkout from which he watched me closely.

I waved my paw at him and left, wondering if he was wondering what the hell I used to have on the signs on my perambulator.

leftofcentre

Man, your memory is short. With criminal convictions of IOC members on official IOC business like Henri Serandour, Guy Drut, Ivan Slavkov, Kim Un-Yong, not to mention IOC members who stand convicted outside the Games and bring their dirty laundry in to Lausanne to be laundered by Samaranch and Rogge, like Park Yong-sung and Bob Hasan, the list of IOC members who are squeaky clean is far shorter than the list of the dirty ones. I'm not surprised Charmaine Crooks quit - it must be tough trying to hold your head up while being around such a greasy crooked bunch as this.

And just like the few criminal convictions in the FIFA soccer match fixing scandal, the convictions the police sought were only the tip of the iceberg. As was said by Transparency International, which records instances of corruption to measure its incidence, hundreds of instances of match-fixing were uncovered, but to make charges convincing required more work to break the 'wall of silence' than the police were willing to put in.

http://www.playthegame.org/uploads/media/Transparency_International_-_Corruption_and_Sport.pdf

With more than three dozen IOC members resigned for corrupt practices in the last two decades before charges could be laid or complaints followed up on, there's plenty of evidence that the IOC is crookeder than a dog's hind leg. If you want to start your own thread defending crooks who operate the IOC, fine, but do it without me. Too many good journalists have detailed the hundreds of incidents and the hundreds of millions (and by now possibly billions) of dollars in bribes for anyone to waste time repeating them to you.

In Defence of Mr. Tieleman

Mr. Tieleman, like ALL of us who read the Tyee, is surely entitled to explain his view. It doesn't mean we have to agree with him, but Bill has proven as a writer that he is thoughtful and reflective. Above all, Bill has demonstrated COURAGE above and beyond most BC writers, based on his incredible work regarding the Legislature raids and ongoing trial against former BC Liberal aides.

NO-ONE else kept this explosive scandal in the forefront of public information. His office was broken into, he lived on a shoe string budget; the list goes on.

With credentials like that, can such an author have some views which differ from others in the social justice movement? Not only can they, but it's almost guaranteed that we will not have unanimity of opinion. In spite of that, I remain completely opposed to the Olympics for the reasons set out in UBC Prof's Chris Shaw's book. But I digress.

Further, Mr Tieleman has clearly chosen citizen's right of dissent over the IOC. That's the correct conclusion, and ultimately, the one that counts. It is a conclusion Mr. Campbell needs to learn from, which is what separates a functioning democracy from an authoritarian regime.

For Tyee readers to villify writers like Bill Tielemann is to diminish the entire project of civil discourse. I know we can do better. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Bill Tieleman fires back

I'm sorry "Immigrant" that you quickly saw that my "intelligent voice" switched to being a "shill for the rich" simply because you disagree with me.

I guess protestors screaming obscenities to children, throwing marbles on the road to potentially cripple police horses and blocking not VANOC but ordinary citizens from carrying the Olympic torch is the creative approach you favour.

Chris Shaw has got tons of publicity for his position, particularly for bravely pointing out that he is being harrassed by police for his anti-Olympics position.

As for my writing and politics, take a good long look at my columns over the past 9 years, including here at the Tyee and then decide where I sit - but rest assured I don't stay up nights worrying what anonymous posters say about me.

Lastly, those who despise the Olympics and think all the money should be spend on other priorities have to at some point acknowledge that the Olympics exist to this day because they are genuinely popular with ordinary people.

Despite the Olympics corporate advertising overload, past obvious corruption within the Olympic familyl and high costs to sponsoring cities and countries, the Games are watched by billions and tens of thousands volunteer their time freely to make it all happen.

Your sophisticated political analysis should factor that into account - people are not all "sheep" as some posters here seem to think.

I love children and horses...

but we'll have to agree to disagree, Bill. From my perspective, the "protesters screaming obscenities to children" pales beside the obscenity of my autistic niece, drugged and relegated to the psychiatric ward after years of cuts to every support and treatment program imaginable.Focus in on the particular: a bright, funny,and imaginative girl who loves math and astronomy has been deprived of the opportunity of a life...which is not quite the same thing as the opportunity of a lifetime.
Which "ordinary people" are the games popular with, Bill? Nobody loves a party/celebration more than I, but if the staging of the games was presented to the populace as a choice - games, or services to citizens - how many would choose to hold the games? Politicians and others of that ilk love the Olympics and similar spectacles because they are provided with oportunity to trot out their stock cliches about the glory of the country/citizenry/endeaour... Apparently, they are so bereft of imagination that they fail to see that they could win everlasting fame and gratitude simply by doing the job they were elected to do: allocate the resources of the society to the benefit of the many, not the few.

People are not all sheep, just the part above the neck.

Bill, I think you make a mistake in assuming people have as much insight and understanding as you, or that they understand why billions watch and tens of thousands volunteer. If we examine the reasoning people use to justify their behaviour we end up at the inescapable conclusion that they watch and participate because it is enjoyable and pleasurable.

But you have to ask yourself “Why?” And this is where most insight and understanding becomes Swiss cheese.

I’m not against fostering Olympic spirit or providing a venue for folks to enjoy and share their games with like-minded folks from around the globe. And I enjoy watching some events, mainly because I use to be fairly athletic and can relate.

What I object to is the fact that today the Olympics are not about sharing they’re about things like “pride” and “honor” and “national treasures” and “profit” and a whole host of equally distorted ways of justifying participation. People are hoaxed into linking these distortions to pleasure.

And if you really believe people aren’t easily hoaxed and easily led, then the companies that hire hoards of PR folks … who are very good at saying otherwise … should revisit their job descriptions

Venerating the Olympic Torch

"I strongly disagree with disrupting the torch run or preventing volunteers from their chance of a lifetime to carry the Olympic flame in their own home town."

I don't particularly think the idea of lugging a flaming stick for 300 metres would constitute a seminal moment in my life, but I guess I'm not 'ordinary people.' Regardless, that part of the Olympics very much reminds me of this quote from Mark Twain's "Innocents Abroad" and the illusions we will countenance when we confuse the symbol with the sentiment.

"But isn't this relic matter a little overdone? We find a piece of the true cross in every old church we go into, and some of the nails that held it together. I would not like to be positive, but I think we have seen as much as a keg of these nails. Then there is the crown of thorns; they have part of one in Sainte Chapelle, in Paris, and part of one also in Notre Dame. And as for bones of St. Denis, I feel certain we have seen enough of them to duplicate him if necessary."

- Innocents Abroad, Chapter 17

Bill T

"I guess protestors screaming obscenities to children"

Really? What did they say? How many kids?

"throwing marbles on the road to potentially cripple police horses"

How many horses have been crippled? And why are the police using cavalry against unarmed people?

"and blocking not VANOC but ordinary citizens from carrying the Olympic torch"

The 91% of the population not "excited" about the Olympics paid for that torch. I think they should be able to throw it on the ground and stomp on it if they like.

"creative approach you favour."

You're the one that wants others to be "creative", most people don't have the free time required to build parade floats and whatever else you want to be entertained by.

How come with a $1 billion budget for security costs the police can't be more "creative" with their protest-busting?

More on marbles Bill

Please expand on the marble story. I have not seen or heardmuch.

Perhaps it was a police concoction? Any physical eveidence?

Remember the Surete de Quebec 'anarchists' in Quebec City trying to incite violence.

And I agree, its a hoaxing.

I like sport, but not one whose competitors cheat or pay for good performance.

While it may be an opportunity of a lifetime for some 12,000 citizens and celebrities; what kind of 'lifetime' do poor children in this province have to look forward to!

One thing that was nice to see was that local media coverage today (photos)in the Comox Valley did not have any coroporate logos clearly visible.

I bet RBC and Coca Cola are happy about that well spent sponsorship money!

And most are sheeple Bill; or you would have way more commenters on here of all persuasions!

Lost your Marbles?

I tried finding a story that verifies that marbles were thrown at police horses' hooves; but can not find anything so far.

Sounds like another hoax!

Where is the proof?

And then you have a liberal MLA calling the demonstrators terrorists! I think he also called them stupid (no intellect)!

I wonder if a corporation (Catalyst) demonstrates complains, whines about being charged too much and chooses not to pay its property taxes (which many dissenters still pay); would they be stigmatized as corportae bums?

Are they terrorizing the community by not paying property tax?

we didn't know about the kid in the wheelchair

they make it sound as though we had all the details about the route, and all the torch carriers, and we intentionally planned to ruin the poor wheel-chair ridden kid's day. in fact, of course, we didn't have such prior knowlege, and of course we didn't set out to destroy anyone's dreams. maybe one day, when that disabled person is trying to live off a disability pension in a world of sky-rocketing housing and food costs, maybe that person will consider that all we were asking is that the government set some priorities that involve something other than their own self interest. house and feed the people, and then we can play games! besides, if there are all those corporate sponsors, what are they doing with their fingers in the public purse? if they weren't stealing our money, we might not be protesting so loudly.

Marbles thrown at horses hooves by cops-

Van Sun has a story but not available on line yet.

Civil disobedience

Disobedience defined: failure or refusal to obey rules or someone in authority.
Civil disobedience defined: refusal to comply with certain laws, or to pay taxes and fines, as a peaceful form of political protest.

Protest defined: an organized public demonstration expressing strong objection to a policy or course of action adopted by those in authority.

Civil disobedience is our civic duty when the government will no longer listen to the people. Since peaceful protest gets subverted, misrepresented, labelled as bullying, ignored by MSM, and co-opted by paid provocatuers, I find very little value in continuing to adhere to the "peaceful political protest" motto. Some one some where will infiltrate the scene and throw a handful of marbles down, or put it in print that this happened and you know "it must be true if it is in MSM, and must not be true if it is not covered by MSM". We are absolutely f*&#*# either way.

Sooooooooooooo, my adherance to peaceful protest is wearing incredibly thin as I watch the general public roll up their sleeves for our government assisted suicide flu shot. The general public is NOT AWARE that they are being used as lab rats under a false pandemic, and they are not aware that the Owelimpics is a corporate ploy to further disenfranchise and remove their rights and replace them with US alphabet agency security forces and a police state based on false pretenses. The only real terrorism and pandemic in our world is created and carried out by our own current federal and provincial governments in conjunction with the WHO, CDC, DHHS, and the American oligarchs who actually control the cryptocracy.

Corporate interests are placed above the public interest every single time, this is Gordo's motto.

Civil disobedience

I don't care one bit about the poor boy who missed his opportunity of a lifetime (opportunity put on him by his parents/caregivers who have no idea what they are using their son to promote); maybe we should have empathy, but the rest of the population of Canada is being fooled and coerced out of their opportunity to have a healthy life. I, myself, am committed to peacful protest, and this includes NOT PAYING ANY TAXES FOR AT LEAST THE NEXT TEN YEARS AS I REFUSE TO FUND $400 million for Arepanrix TM H1N1 vaccine by GSK, $300 million for Gardasil TM Human Papilloma Virus vaccine by Merck, and the undetermined amount of our money spent on the "bait and switch" Owelympics.

We need to blow the top off of the underutilized point that we EITHER have a Phase 6 pandemic requiring the mass vaccination of the public with a fast-tracked, untested, novel production process (illegally adjuvanted with squalene, VLP GM virus prion that is proven to be dynamic and reactive and that permanently mutates our DNA ) vaccine OR we are inviting the world to Vancouver for the Owelimpics. NOT BOTH. Somehow the number one recommendation for prevention of spreading a virus, WHICH IS TO AVOID LARGE CROWDS, fell off the lists of pandemic propoganda shoved down our throats by CDC and the WHO.
Thank you to the Tyee for even entertaining the truth, a dangerous business these days. How long can we be peaceful, patient, and respectful? What will it take for us to get angry, jumpy and restless, and replace the respect for real action that creates meaningful change?

yanked already?

Olympic torch protesters say police threw marbles at horses, caused fracas Vancouver Sun

http://www.vancouversun.com/Police+threw+marbles+horses+caused+fracas+Olympic+protesters/2178703/story.html

This Oct 30 story is no longer available.

Is there a newer one in the works?

Agents provocateur....

I'm not sure about the marbles, but it strikes me that the torch relay itself is the perfect provocation for people that security officials would rather have enjoined from approaching any venues when the games begin.

Olympic marketing has one agenda and Olympic security another. Security may actually be encouraging protest by feigning ineffectiveness, in the hopes of rounding up a bunch of troublemakers under relatively controlled circumstances, some days before the games begin .....

Were there marbles???

I haven't seen or heard a reputable news source say that they saw marbles. Michael Smyth mentioned it in his column but with no source, that would be heresay.

marbles found

Times Colonist Tues Nov 3 pg A4

"Protestors blame police for fracas.

Once again Sgt. Grant Hamilton tries to create a "terrorist" incident in order to justify billions spent on security.

link

http://www.timescolonist.com/news/Protesters+didn+police+threw+marbles/2182078/story.html

be very afraid of this papa

"In fact, this ceremony never occurred at the ancient Olympics. The modern conception is a mishmash of two quite different pagan traditions that Berlin’s masterminds—in particular, Dr. Carl Diem, a leading German scholar who became head of the organizing committee—had brilliantly reworked."

Read the full story on the inception of the torch run in the History News Network article here:

http://hnn.us/articles/6719.html

The NDP mastermind: "I strongly disagree with disrupting the torch run or preventing volunteers from their chance of a lifetime to carry the Olympic flame in their own home town. It discredits any legitimate protest goals."

I am not in anyway surprised that an NDP spin master would come out in support of the torch run, are you? I am also not in anyway surprised that the spin master would place its' paternalistic self at the helm of protest etiquette. After all, they are in charge of the vulnerable right? Surely they know best how to protect them from themselves? My advice to you if you are vulnerable is to be very, very afraid of this papa!

Maybe Campbell was there.

That would account for the marbles loose on the pavement. If there were any.

Telling a lie repeatedly does not make it true

Mr. Tieleman, apparently there is nothing to your baseless charge that protesters threw marbles. If there is, please post your proof. And oh dear, children might have been present when an obscenity was uttered. Will you speak up sympathetically for all those whose lives will be horribly disrupted by the police and authorities over the next few months, or is it only when those with whom you disagree cause a disruption that you object?

I was quite clear that I'm new to BC and have no idea of your history. I'm responding to what I see here. It takes a huge amount of bravery to admit that the Charter of Rights and Freedoms should be upheld (as opposed to, I dunno, just arresting all dissenters), doesn't it? Makes you a real hero.

You keep maintaining that the general public wants the games here. Perhaps that was true when the rosy picture was painted for the plebiscite a few years ago, but according to the polls, it's not true now.

And you conveniently miss my major point. It's only because protesters got in people's faces that you're even writing about the cutbacks, about the money being spent on the games that could be spent on real needs of the people who live here. Chris Shaw has been branded an extremist by the mainstream media, yet nobody refutes the facts he points out, and his predictions are systematically being borne out.

too wild a dream?

I've been thinking about all the towns the torch relay has yet to go through --- or not go through, be refused entry by municipal etc. officials.

With so many funding cuts to local service organizations, the money could be much better spent, with lots of brownie points for whoever could pull it off. There could still be a parade and a party, but the torch held high could be a no-torch torch, to be passed on to the next community wanting a non-Olympic torch/no-torch torch, whatever the name, for its high spirited continuation of the festivities.

I hear there are torches for sale already. Clearly some participants want to move on, may even have regrets. By now people who talked about the great history etc. must be embarrassed, for example.

Over 6000 hits now at "flaming underpants" on youtube.

Any ideas? It's so easy to feel like a flat tire once November sets in, and the already dismal situation demands a strong, travelling burst of joy and hilarity.

"Baseless" claims confirmed by protestors - Tieleman

"Immigrant" wrongly claims that my comment about some protestors throwing marbles on the street to disrupt police horses is "baseless" - in fact, even the protestors agree someone did indeed thrown marbles, though they argue it was a "provocateur" possibly employed by the police themselves.

Here's part of the story from the Victoria-Times Colonist dated November 3 online:

*****

"The public saw marbles coming from the crowd - and Victoria police officers saw it," said Sgt. Grant Hamilton of the Victoria Police Department.

Tamara Herman, an organizer for the group No2010, said one of the protesters saw someone who was not part of their organization drop marbles in the roadway.

Herman said she could not name the witness or offer other details. Nevertheless, she contends that a plainclothes police officer was trying to discredit the protesters.

"The Integrated Security Unit (responsible for Games security) stated they wouldn't rule out using provocateurs. Organizers at the back of the march saw someone they didn't recognize dropping a bag of marbles," Herman said.

*****

As to Immigrant's other comments, try reading my columns and blog - I've stood up for people with disabilites, vulnerable children and others in need for years and will continue to do so.

And I've written about them before and after the Olympic protestors showed up - but I haven't seen most of those folks at other events to support those facing cuts.

The TC story is at: http://www.canada.com/news/Olympic+torch+protesters+police+threw+marbles+horses+caused+fracas/2179944/story.html

The people are speaking. Whither immigrants?

Immigrant, please do check out his blogs.

Like this one, where he "is honoured to share the stage with" right-wing Bill Vander Zalm (http://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2009/09/15/ZalmHatesHST/), whatever his past and over-all intentions, and this one, where he blasts Margaret Atwood for supporting the BQ's "social democratic tendencies," in ignorance of its past, its primary purpose (http://thetyee.ca/Views/2008/12/02/NoCoalition/).

In the latter article you'll find him declaring how he's no friend of Stephen Harper but has firm respect for his having "just won the most number of seats in Parliament in a free and fair democratic vote." The people want the Olympics -- he clearly wants to believe -- and deserve respect. The people want Harper, and their wishes need to be respected. Those who get in the way are wrong and worthy of (and receive) his ridicule. Since the opposition he now loathes seems more and more to be, if not of the weak and fragile, then of the sensitive (don't miss his revolting dismissal of Suzuki for his unmanly hypersensitivity), and his friends seem to be of the marching militant, he is clearly much more drawn to muscle and inclined to disparage the vulnerable, than otherwise.

Rights

It seems you were pretty even-handed, Bill, until the end of the article.

What kind of simplistic, childish, accommodating pap is the "rights of others to celebrate the Olympics?" How about a "right to not make people sad 'n' stuff?" Nope, didn't see that one in the charter either. I wonder if they would contradict one's freedom of expression?

Protesters "should find more creative means" to protest? Like what, and why? Are you saying that they should find a way to accommodate the event and the government they despise? I see no other interpretation, and I invite you to explain what you mean by "more creative means."

Your article, with it's fairly worded preamble and discordant conclusion, on balance appears to be a sneaky, mealy-mouthed way to tell people pissed at the Olympics and this government to "shut up." Why you would want them to do so is a mystery.

Olympic Rituals and Symbols... Har Har

There is the one where the five interlocking olympic rings represent the "Five Continents of the Earth"

Just brilliant, as there are seven continents.

horses

How would a protester know ahead of time that there would be police mounted on horseback securing the torch run?

Seems to me a bit of information only an insider would know about, in order to bring a bag of marbles along with them.

As an aside, using horses by police for their work is not acceptable. They just should not be put into the mix of crowds. Ride bikes.

Time to face facts....

From The Sun:

"Last weekend in Victoria, protesters not only deprived people who lined the route of the torch procession of their right to enjoy the spectacle, they recklessly endangered the lives of mounted police sent there to ensure order and public safety. Protesters threw marbles under the horses hooves hoping to disable them and dislodge their riders without regard for the potentially deadly consequences for both.

A few protest leaders recognized belatedly that their cause would be discredited by such despicable behaviour and fabricated the preposterous story that undercover police acting as agent provocateurs committed the crime. But rank and file protesters told reporters they were proud of what they had done."

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/2010wintergames/Protesters+beyond+rights+when+they+deny+them+others/2191405/story.html

Horses

Definitely, the RCMP's use of horses in a crowd, and to "protect the torch run" is ridiculous, iresponsible, and a preplanned tool to shut down and discredit protestors. USE BIKES YOU FREAKS!

Are they trying to pull on our heart strings using horses. I would have a very hard time "participating" in a protest that hurt a horse - not that this happened - but just that these Freaks know that those active on social and ecological justice issues would care about horses, subconsciously or consciously.

That is why they are the Freaks - they would jeprodize horses by bringing them into a situation known to be contentious and known to be protested. And they would top it off by having an infiltrator throw marbles down. Luckily no horse broke a leg, and thus operation "discredit and infiltrate torch protestors 101" was a miserable failure for the paid infiltrator (spy, secret agent, undercover agent, operative, informant, informer, mole, plant, spook; intruder, interloper, subversive). Go home Gordo you psycopathic horse endangerer.

I place the RCMP's decision to bring horses into this situation as entirely far more evil than what a protestor or an infiltrator did or did not do!

Were any marbles gathered as evidence?

If someone shouted in the crowd 'he has a gun'!; would everyone assume that indeed there is a gun?

Where are the smoking marbles Bill? Surley they were collected as evidence?

And now I heard that torch bearers are considered high risk for H1N1 and jumped the queue like the pro hockey players (as if that would help the Leafs win)!

It's a joke!

Dr. Alexander

Yes, but two of them don't count. Just have to figure out which two.............

Celebrating the Olympics is not a right

This article raises some good general points about the importance of respecting others' right to protest even if we do not support their goals. It also raises some good points about the unfair operation and selection of stories by the media. But the torch run is not a protest and just because carrying the torch is a "chance of a lifetime" doesn't mean anyone, even someone with cerebral palsy has the "right" to do it. In my opinion celebrating the Olympics is no more a human right than is other once in a lifetime opportunities such as owning a pet chimpanzee, flying to space, eating a rare animal, or being on a reality TV show. We need to learn how to distinguish between human behaviors that fall in the category of rights and those that fall in the category of frivolous luxuries if we are going to make any progress towards creating a just and sustainable society.

A more likely story

Here's a blog post that is probably the closest approximation of the facts/truth.

Wednesday, November 4, 2009
who lost their marbles? one witness remembers ....

I actually do remember the face of who tossed the marbles. He was young (~early 20's), skinny, caucasian, about 5' 10"ish. He appeared to have either a short hair or tight hat. He was dressed in the anarchoblack halloween outfit (sans mask) that so many of the marchers were wearing. Other marchers called out to him "what do you think you're doing?" and he turned around and smiled and replied something the effect of "what's done is done " kind of thing. He actually dropped some of the marbles on my feet, causing me to trip. I kicked about a dozen marbles off towards the street gutters as they were a hazard to the marchers. I didn't see anyone throw the marbles, just fellow marchers kicking them off the street, not towards horses who were about 50m away.

I don't believe it was cop but suspect rather a member of some autonomous affinity group trying to be clever. It felt like a prank/ activist misfire in implementation. When I asked a neighboring marcher what was the point of marbles they instantly knew that it was a tactic tool to impair the horses. Some one got too enthused, thinking tactically not strategically. The horses were never a threat to the group and looking back at the evening, I actually have to give the Victoria cops some credit in not provoking the crowd. I was amazed that the demo actually made onto the Legislature lawn during the finale.

I'll gladly provide any other feedback if necessary,
Ciao, Qarlos

http://janinebandcroft.blogspot.com/2009/11/who-lost-their-marbles-one-witness.html

If anti-olympicers have to

If anti-olympicers have to demonstrate there's not a marble-thrower amongst them, the public clearly WANTS to see them as urban delinquints, and their efforts will count against them. How can there not be marble throwers, how can there not be some, or even many, involved, that are drawn to mayhem and humiliation, when they've all suffered through 30 years of corporate rule, public disintegration, family discord? Corporations can't lose: they've helped create society so ruthless and unnuturing, that those who protest against them can be shown up as "unbalanced" cause they've ensured that at least some involved surely are, and thus set-up for further discrimination / abuse, if the public is in the mood to cooperate.

Save the Rivers has managed to avoid being set up as lumber-jack injuring anarchists; owing its success to being understood as backed by concerned, good-hearted wilderness appreciaters. Why the difference? My guess it has something to do with how the public PREFERS to imagine the two. The public wants them to seem pure --and therefore skims over the anarchists amongst them, and estimates them mostly composed of small town, clean air breathing and humble, middle-aged lovers of God's green earth -- and wants the the anti-olympicers to seem viral --and thus focusses on "irresponsible," self-dramatizing youth and terrorist-like tactics, and resists acknowledging that most anti-olympicers are save-the-river types as well. (But are most save-the-river types also anti-olympicers? Not sure, myself.)

Anti-urban sentiment? Fascist favoring of mountain hikes and clean lakes -- the simple and grandscale --over complex city dynamics and strange philosophies? What do you think?