"CanWest has a stake in too many Liberal initiatives like the Olympics"

Bell/Globemedia (CTV) has the broadcast rights to the 2010 games. It could be argued an Olympic-sized failure of the Winter Games would be better for Canwest than a success.

blah, blah, blah. I guess the tyee will continue to whine, cry and bitch about this election for the next 4 years. I'm sure by the end of 4 years the animals in stanley park will be the reason the NDP lost the election. Not because the people of this province exercised their will and democratic right.

If political decision making is not influenced by parge amounts of money and propaganda, why are all political Parties always begging for more donations and why it is an accepted rule that the Parties with the most money usually win elections? Perhaps we should regulate and define how much a Party can spend on an election, including putting prices on the presently free propaganda provided by the controlled media and then see what the exercise of free will do the the democratic process? At this time, candidates and Parties virtually have to buy their way into Parliaments and for one,I don't like it. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

There is no question that the media's goal was to customize the news so as to ensure the BC Liberals' victory. The "big labour" support for the NDP pales in comparison the to "big business" financial support for Campbell. The fictionalized sensation of a strike by teachers was so stupidly false I believe only the most ignorant of voters bought it.

Some NDP members are happy with the result. I am not. We should have won. The media certainly did their best to construct a Liberal reality in B.C. The Green Party, a party without members but whom too many voters choose to park their vote were also to blame.

I think newcomers to the media such as the Tyee will help provide some balance in B.C. It will be a struggle, though, against such well-entrenched and financed corporations.

As for the Olympics, I just hope there are strikes aplenty. Labour deserves its share of the pie and it should be a very big slice with ice cream.

Of course, in addition to its challenges to other Parties, the NDP has invariably had to compete against a virulently anti-NDP mainstream media.

As demonstrably slimy as any has been CanWest. Media concentration has made the NDP's tasks that much more difficult.

The love affair with the Greens was just part of it.

Perhaps feeling themselves in a no-win situation as far as fairness and the media are concerned, the NDP have been close to mute on the matter. I think this to have been a terrible mistake.

Many today are questioning media credibility. The NDP should climb on board in a very public way. Until it does, barring those it runs against being caught and exposed in acts of beastly behaviour, the Establishment will win again and again.

"The "big labour" support for the NDP pales in comparison the to "big business" financial support for Campbell."

That is a false statement.

"As for the Olympics, I just hope there are strikes aplenty. Labour deserves its share of the pie and it should be a very big slice with ice cream."

That is a classic example of left wing arrogance and stupidity. Do you want every future generation paying for the olympics. I guess you do, you should start praying for strikes now. I'm sorry but that post is ridiculous. A classic example of the lefts disdain for the taxpayers dollar.

Your attitude is the reason many people are FRIGHTENED of having the NDP return to power.

That "many people frightened" assertion got a shit kicking a couple weeks back, Jim. Or didn't you notice?

And the comparison between labour support for the NDP and business support for the Liberals is not a false comparison. You can claim it is, of course, if it helps you sleep at night but it's not false. And the numbers of dollars are absurdly balanced in favour of business support for the Liberals. Where NDP wins come from is from on the ground people support and maybe that balances out the huge Liberal edge in dollars raised. Did you hear the recent report about the Liberals having a big pre-election meeting at The Wall Centre. They were trying to get their business supporters, the ones who donated their funds, to back up their financial support with on the ground support on election day. A kind of corporate get out the vote campaign. Evidently, the corporate types are only interested in giving them money, not in actually working.

The problem here is the lack of real, unbiased journalism in the province. The Vancouver Sun, The Province, and the Tyee all have a problem of running selected news stories that reflect their own political views. Without the Tyee, we would be left with only one view of the world. If a paper started up that was free of political influence into how they report the news I would subscribe in a heartbeat. The sad fact is that there is very little "professionalism" left in the media today. I wonder why they even have journalism schools anymore. Ethics is a thing of the past.

"The sad fact is that there is very little "professionalism" left in the media today. I wonder why they even have journalism schools anymore. Ethics is a thing of the past."

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with Chris H. The fact is, for all its flaws, there's never been a freer, more open press at anytime in history. The information and facts are out there if one wants to educate oneself. The real question is why do people prefer vapid info-tainment over harsh truths?

As for the press its market-driven. If you want to find fault, you can place just as much blame on the audience who buys the drivel.

So a business-oriented newspaper supports a business-oriented political party. Surprise, surprise. This is a story?

If you don't like what a certain newspaper writes, then don't read it. There's nothing stopping other media outlets -- like the Tyee -- from promoting their own vision of society. If certain media outlets aren't convincing or attractive to people, then maybe they need to hone their message and/or reconsider their content, rather than blame a different, more successful organization.

The Great Brainwash theory of mass media grows tiresome -- it is very similar to the arrogant Marxist theory of False Consciousness -- that is, since "the masses" emulate the views of the hegemonic class in society, the way the masses conceive of their interests does not reflect their "true" interests. I think this is another way to argue that voters are too uninformed or stupid to make their own choices, which I find to be elitist and anti-democratic.

I think the voters' choices ought to be treated with greater respect -- especially if you disagree with them.

We should boycot CanWest media and all who advertise with them. It is the power of the people that can control this corrupt and evil media chain. Don't patronise CanWest advertisers!

"blah, blah, blah. I guess the tyee will continue to whine, cry and bitch about this election for the next 4 years. I'm sure by the end of 4 years the animals in stanley park will be the reason the NDP lost the election. Not because the people of this province exercised their will and democratic right."

I don't think this is a fair assertion JIm. There is no reason why The Tyee and others shouldn't have post-election analysis. The fact is, the media plays a significant roll in our elections so criticism is not only fair but expected. God knows you've given your share of criticism over The Tyee's coverage.

Furthermore, I wonder how much "blah, blah, blah" we would hear from you and others on the right, if Canwest threw their unabashed support behind the NDP instead of the Liberals.

one of the many flaws of this poorly written article: in richmond teachers have already taken a strike vote, and all locals were informed about ten days before the election that there would be full scale job action in the fall. the great laugh here is that they were probably using this strategy to pump up the sheep.. er.. troops, but it backfired with the mission memo and now we can thank the brilliant bctf for firming up the soft liberal vote and ensuring a solid majority. well done!

Moderate Man, If you want to claim the Sun and Province are successful because they have about 150,000 readers in a market of 4 million when they're the only game in town, okay.

I think most NDP'ers stopped buying the Sun years ago, and their falling circulation figures back that up.

It is bad enough if the media selectively uses quotes to make their news sound-bites in order to promote their candidate of choice. It is utterly reprihensible when it actively manipulates the political process in favour of one party.

I and a lot of people I know will vote for the politcal party with the most balanced labour-business-environmental agenda. I try to use a variety of sources of information to help me decide which party to support. What I do is drop media outlets that are covertly or covertly biased such as the Sun and Province. And now, I think BCTV has crossed that line too.

sirjohna,

Richmond must be the only BCTF local in the entire province to have a strike vote. You might want to phone the president Al Klassen. I am sure he will be as surprised as I am to read your contention that a strike vote could be held in one local and that it has been held in Richmond. Check your facts or apply for a job with Can West.

You have to apply to the LRB to take a strike vote. There has been no strike vote by Richmond teachers. Keep on spreading lies sirjohna.

Unfortunately, it's probable that most Canadians are unaware of the extent of the Canwest empire,and the extent of newsroom and editorial interference practised by co. owners, the Aspers. Just in Vanc. they control the Sun, Province, Courier, Dose,National Post,BCTV, Global TV, and I don't know how many radio stations, other TV stations, and other local papers. I too am ignorant of the full extent of Canwest.
These are the guys who shilled for Jean Chretien's Liberals and who fired a well regarded Ottawa Citizen editor for editorializing that Chretien should resign (this was prior to Adscam).And who knows that Adscam might have broken open years ago, if our media hadn't been so dominated by a company that would have tried to bury such a story instead of uncovering it.
Their flagship National Post tolerates only
hawkish pro-Likud, anti-Palestinian middle east stories. Their coverage of environmental issues consists mainly of ongoing attacks on the Kyoto treaty. They push red herring claims that scientific evidence of global warming is still lacking (while climate scientists instead describe the evidence as ever mounting).
I am heartened that Canwest continues to lose the national newspaper war. National Post readership is down hugely, with double digit losses, while Globe readership, though also down, is down by a much smaller percentage.
And recent National Newspaper Awards saw Canwest's flagship Post win zero awards! The biggest winner was The Toronto Star with 4 awards, La Presse won 3, The Globe 2.(It is true Canwest's Ottawa Citizen and Vanc. Sun did win 2 each). The Toronto Star is quite a good paper, and best of all it's completely free online! Much of the Globe is also free (except for columnists). Canwest demands your subscription money to have the privilege of accessing the majority of their propaganda online.
I've been practising my own personal boycott of any and all Asper/Canwest products for some years now, and I would urge others to do the same! I refuse to contribute one cent to their bottom line.I occasionally read some of their stuff in the library to see what they're up to, I don't mind Vaughn Palmer, and I will read the Courier, which is free and apparently less "Asperized", so far at least.

The teachers strike vote bullshit became a news event because the premier made it one - and canwest was an uncritical and willing accomplice, I agree. But while health care was a big election theme for the NDP, I don't remember Carole James saying anything about the "operating rooms in BC hospitals sit empty for 15,000 hours" lede you say canwest kept on ice before burying after the election. I suspect the NDP knew about this issue. Is there some suggestion they try to raise it and were squelched? If so, that's a big deal. If not, isn't this BCNU issue a bit of a red herring?

None of this is a surprise. The obvious slant of the media to the Liberals has been so evident its sickening to the stomach. I gave up Canwest media slop 4 years ago..when it became obvious they gave up actual news reporting for politically driven drivel. Hard to think of any respectable journalist going to work for Canwest knowing he is nothing more than a copy editor for the Liberals. But when a large majority of people still open a newspaper or watch the evening news as the only window to the world...the brainwashing is never ending. The hospital story was bang on correct. Operating rooms have been purposely kept empty for years to create a massive backlog...Was this direct 100% misconception reported anywhere??? Nope...just that Liberal scouted private health care was the only way to survive this crisis. Why would anyone support a political party that treats people with such contempt ?? Canwest news is nothing close to news. They are 100 % embarrasing ...shameful poor excuses for journalists of any kind. Thanks goodness for the Tyee and a handful of others who still have some self respect.

The media slant here was so painfully oblivious prior to the election that I thought I was reading Pravda in Moscow circa 1970.

BCTV ran a series on TV talking about the booming economy just as the election was being called and of course the timing of the unveiling of the Olympic logo was just a coincidence. Sheesh! Do the Liberals really think people are so blind that they can’t see the rather poorly done propaganda?

BCTV does have a bad rep, my previous boss refused to do taped interviews with them, because of their questionable editing practices. I also see that incidents that I was involved in had a error rate of around 40% in the facts. The Province is such a bad newspaper that I would hesitate to line my cat’s litter box with it.

What surprises me is that the BC Liberals who despite having the media completely under their control, a booming global economy and a opposition party still in tatters, could perform so badly at the polls. You can bet that Campbell is about to meet his own Brutas.

nermal and chris; if that info is wrong i was given false information and i apologize. there was no intent to lie. i stand by the claim that the locals were informed about full-scale job action in the fall.

Frank wrote:

Good point, Frank. I think it supports my argument that the Sun & Province are not the monolithic pro-BC Lib opinion creators that some make them out to be. If what you write is true, then there is plenty of room for other news sources to undermine the pro-BC Lib bias in the Sun & Province.

Moderate Man, is that you Tony Parsons?

I can tell when you lie on TV. You mouth tightens into almost a scowl and you don't look directly at the camera.

Good story Don. I can also tell that because you have managed to get just about all our resident Liberal/Socred/looneytunes dancing like mad on their keyboards over this one.

And you didn't even mention anything about the the fact that Can/West didn't have anything on the police raids on the legislature or the three Liberal appointees who have been charged criminally or the fact that the Liberal cabinet ministers who employed this gang all just vanished from the political scene shortly before the election.

Oh of course Gary Colins simply couldn't resist an airline pilot's position, even though it likely pays less and offers little prestige compared to that of Finance Minister.

Of course it wouldn't have anything to do with the airline's owner, who gave another big pile of money to the Liberals, doing the nervous Collins an opportunity to flee.

Now, can you imagine Can/west not mentioning the searches and arrests during the election campaign if there was an NDP government?

NOTE TO Sirj: Even a bad lie has to have some credibility to it, but then, so does the ....

According to Black Press BC Bureau, in 2004 the BC Liberal Party collected $8.22 million in contributions plus with other fundraising and product sales, a total of $8.57 million. Of this, over $5.million came from corporations and $838,000 from unincorporated business and commercial organizations. Just over $2. million came from individual donations, with $1.5 million in contributions over $250.

The NDP collected $3.68 million in contributions, plus product sales etc. to a total of $4.19 million. Of this $3.17 million came from individuals, with more than half in donations of $250. or less.

In other words, corporate/business contributions to the Liberals were almost double of the NDP's total income. Can anybody deny the corporate control of the BCLiberal Party after such figures ? Ed Deak, Big Lake.

WHat must scare the willies out of the chamber of commerce is the NDP does very well in elections despite the full force of private media campaigning against them.

But you don’t need a conspiracy theory to recognize the convergence in coverage among CanWest properties. And it’s also obvious that CanWest wanted a BC Liberal victory.

Read "Manufacturing Consent" to understand the dynamics that lead to media bias. There is no big mystery here. The mystery starts when non-coropate media, like the CBC and small independant press also fail to cover an issue. If the CBC had run with this story Global would have had to respond. So the failing may actually be in that the NDP spin machine failed to connect with this message and get it out there.

I am not questioning the valididty of the claims about the media culture at Canwest, they are so the FOX of the North, just that there are other mediums to use and that it seems that they did not respond to this, or many other issues as well.

I'm sure that many of the difficulties within the Sickness industry have been contrived. I believe many in that industry, the drug side in particular, are as venal as any.

Do no harm??? Forget it!

Over the past decade, if my recollection is correct, the mainstream media has been gung ho for for-profit healthcare.

Private clinics, a first year fee of almost $5,000 including registration and doctors at $275,000 per year. That's what this media would have.

LET THE ADVERTISING BEGIN

Joe and Jill SixPack? Pay your raised medical fees and just wait your damned turn!!

Excuse me, but is this a politics-is- polluted story, a media are gluttonous handmaidens story or more? I really do not know, I just escaped from the land of Canwest, subscriber-wise,although their journalism has ticked me off for some time.

""The "big labour" support for the NDP pales in comparison the to "big business" financial support for Campbell."

That is a false statement. ""

what part of this is false JIm?
If you look at political contributions,Big Business contributed substantially more to the liberals than "big Labour" contributed to the NDP.

""Your attitude is the reason many people are FRIGHTENED of having the NDP return to power.""

It is your blindness to the article above that is frightening.
Do you actually deny that Campbell has the support of the media? Are you that narrowminded and cant see it for yourself?

Here's another CanWest coup, their unabashed support for the SkyTrain/RAV project. The selling of RAV by CamWest is nothing short of supporting fraud! Not one bit of truth about transit is ever printed and on the subject of Light Rail, CanWest has continued the big lie invented by RAVCo. and TransLink!

JIm is brennan. They are one person with two login ids locked in a fight to the death. Hopefully one of them will soon prevail. Otherwise reasonable and intelligent people will continue to be deflected from useful activity by taking JIm's odiferous and predictable bait. Freepers in the States have perfected JIm's strategy. JIm himself is probably not useful to the Libs in a positive sense, but deployed here he serves the purpose of cranking up negative noise and posting trollish flamebait. Too bad Tyee doesn't have a mojo system so we wouldn't have to get stuck in JIm's quicksand. Get it people? If you see "JIm" just keep moving. There's nothing to see.

It is pointless to complain to the B.C. Press Councilabout anything, let alone a topic as important as priceless political advertising given to one party for free.

But there's a movement underway to establish a
B.C. CITIZENS' PRESS COUNCILto seek fairness in press coverage.

The first task is as described by Donald Gutstein: to put a $$-figure on the priceless benefits the Liberals receive by having big media carry their political campaign messages without (so far) any cost to them.

The next step will be to demand that a realistic total cost for this political advertising must be declared by the Liberals as part of their election campaign advertising.

Thanks to Donald Gutstein for this very helpful analysis.

This election was big money and big media vs. an army of normal citizens on the ground that have been hurt by the current regime. Mel from Calgary is right when he says the media must be scared when they act as such Liberal boosters and lose. YES LOSE, The election was lost by the Liberals, they lost the popular vote , even Gordo lost the popular vote in his riding. The green vote dropped off but was still pumped up to kill a few close ridings. Such a shame

Some gross examples of CanWest hype the last few days before the election. And to be honest even CBC was embedded. I am mad as hell, let me give you some examples.

I ask everyone to stop into a library and check out the last Sat Vancouver Sun before the election. It had a riding by riding break down , each riding pumped up the Liberal and played up the green member. In the 2 NDP ridings they pointed out the fact that the NDP member did not win the popular vote in the riding last time(hint , maybe the green candidate could win this time)

In my riding Port Moody, they pointed out that Karen Rockwell was ONLY a first time city councilor that was just recently elected. While Iain Black with no political experience , he was built up like a god. I was at a all candiates meeting where his advisor shouted down a female teacher who is say 90lb soaking wet and telling her to shut the F.. Up and get out.

We all know and could give many examples of how corrupt the media is but lets take it to the next level. CanWest is a major party supporter. 1) Maybe this should be challenged in court, as far as conflict of interest.
2) go to canwestwatch.ca
3) Support independent media like the tyee or CFRO 102.7 co op radio.
4) Arrange a monthly protest.
Any ideas, time to fight back or join Jim in the status quo.

Thanks five4fighting. we all know Jim and others like him. Just ignore him, don't feed bread to the dogs. He is here to do a job, make this entire free democratic forum a joke and crush it's attempt to get to any useful solutions.

Hey , the NDP has 33 maybe 34 seats, that only 6-7 seats away from taking power.
How about some recall campaigns in close ridings , like Gordo's or in delta south
Val Ruddock lost, the independent took to much of the vote. No one would vote green in
A recall election . What do you think, lets the ball rolling.

Sorry Val Ruddock lost the popular vote, she won but only because of the indepandant.

This is the reason I don't read any newspapers, watch the news on TV or listen to corporate propaganda on the radio. I use the web to find out the truth. I read this site's news. I go to the CP website. I download radio programs from radio4all.net I don't want to be brainwashed by right wing corporate media types.

Great article, Donald Gutstein. Step by step, move by move, you've laid out how the highly manipulative "pseudo reporting/election strategy" of Canwest as the Big Brother of All Campaign Managers got their boy Gordon Campbell and his BC Liberals re-elected in BC. They placed just one deviously false move after another.

Imagine if these guys decided to cease and desist from working in the corporate interests of the Dark Side for even one week...what changes would be wrought...what information would suddenly bloom in the light...

The real story, I think, that was overlooked during the election was the selling out of BC, the americanization of this province. It was hardly mentioned. The tiptoeing of the NDP must stop and the people of this province must wake up.

This was the issue, along with our deteriorating health system that invokes the most outrage from the electorate and that trumps all other issues... because if you relinquish control over your own self-determination as a province, over your information and your resources, over your health system... and ultimately end up with no say, no controlling hand, indeed no part in your own future then social issues like poverty, civil liberties, human rights become fallen soldiers to this lost war as well.

"This is the reason I don't read any newspapers, watch the news on TV or listen to corporate propaganda on the radio. I use the web to find out the truth."

Stop it! You're making me laugh so hard I might pee myself.

Stuart:

Living in Delta South, I think Roddick would resign if faced with a second recall. I do not think the NDP candidate would win, even if Huntington did not run.

I think a massive recall campaign against the Liberals would have a demoralizing effect. This round of Parliment will be greadful for the Liberals, as there is an opposition this time; an opposition that smells fear in Liberal ranks. "Cry havoc and unleash the dogs of war." It won't be pretty at all.

I think that Liberal scandal will be the hallmark of this parliment ~ RAV ~ BC Rail ~ Fast Ferry sale ~ healthcare ~ Olympics, take your pick. The freebie parliment is over, it is now the revenge parliment.

This entire media thing has been a sore spot, on that portion of my torso that sees very little light, and that has been for a long time. And, when a person should have the audacity to complain, right leaning thinkers, such as "Jim" (no signature) hurls invective upon those who complain. I've never been afraid of a fair fight, lost a few, one a few, but I sure do detest a fight that's unbalanced. The way the CanWest media has been pushing their agenda, that of supporting, and getting the BC Liberals re-elected, borders on fraud. It's bad enough that "Big Labour" is touted to be the main supporters of the NDP, which is patently untrue, their support comes from rand and file members of the work force, union and non-union alike. But the same rhetoric flows from the mouths of the right leaners, Big Bad Labor. Jim, when you say that the business community didn't contribute nearly as much as did Big Labor, where did you get this priceless piece of information? From the Liberals? From some "Fair Minded" editorial from CanWest? When travelling to and from work, and watching tv in the evening, it amazed me how many business groups were on the bandwagon, paying for ads touting the wonderful performance of the Liberals. The few ads by some of the unions, such as the nurses and public sector workers, paled in comparison.

BC Mary;
I hope that your venue of a "fairness in reporting" group will have some effect, but I doubt it. It'll never be seen in print, or on TV, at least not in any venue controlled by CanWest. Sure, the results might be posted, here on The Tyee, or on Vive Le Canada, but the folks that read or participate in these electronic newsgroups is miniscule, compared to the readership or BCTV's audience.

Even if the NDP were to have won this one (and they probably would have, save for the Green votes), and enacted some Provincial Legislation requiring that the media reporting be fair and impartial, as soon as the neo-cons were ever re-elected, that legislation would be scrapped. I, for one, do not buy or read the Province or Sun anymore, nor do I watch BCTV, especially the news portions, that's my personal stance I've taken, albeit not a very big one.

Don F.

Now that I've got my dander up, here's some thoughts, for my right leaning friends. Why is it that your esteemed leader, Mr. Campbell, failed to have the decency of attending one town hall meeting, or all candidates meeting, none in his own riding, none anyplace. Is it because he cannot think on his feet, needs to have orchestrated arguments laid out for him? The same thing happened in the previous legislature, after Joy McPhail called him a "Liar", and was summarily removed from the house, for refusing to apologize and retract her statement, Mr. Campbell refused to answer any further questions from her, because he was afraid that she would call him a "Liar" again. One of his underlings always fielded a question from her, not Gordo, has the man no backbone?

Don F.

"enacted some Provincial Legislation requiring that the media reporting be fair and impartial"

That would be the end of The Tyee.

You want the government controlling the media? That's exactly what you'd have.

Honestly people, if you don't like the way the news is reported then go out and do better yourselves. Whingeing about how corporate media is controlled by (shock, gasp) corporations is like complaining there's beef in your beef noodle soup.

I admire Kevin Potvin. He didn't like the what he saw on the newstands and put out his own paper to present his views. Now, with the internet available to many, there's no reason you can't put out your own online version of the truth as you see it.

We have been talking about the bias of the Crapworst media whores for a long time now. We just have to consider them in the equation. They are political donors to the Liberals for Christ sake - of course they will support the bastards.

Despite incredible odds, the NDP were approximately 3800 votes from taking power (accumulated in various ridings of course). That's staggering. Imagine that close to pulling off the biggest political victory in history.

Campbell won't last a year.

Proud to live in a NDP riding.

Good article! I've boycotted the Black-ASPer media when His Lardship bought it and continue to boycott it under the ASPers, for it is just as Pro-Corporate, Pro-American and Pro-Israel. The ASPer "advertorials" masquerading as "news" have perverted the Public Conscience and taken the truth away. The dumbing down of academia, the lack of Canadiana taught in our schools, and stifling of critical thought has softened the Public Mind into the consistency of unrisen dough-- suitable for accepting the corporate agenda's global-gobble-up Plan. Decades of really dumb TV sticoms and movies and Idiotendo have played a large part in mushing the minds of today's young folk, as the overwhelming focus on professional sports has absconded with many men's minds. The young don't vote. They don't even know who's running. If they voted at all, they voted Green, thinking it was really Green! Mind you, voting Conservative or Liberal when one isn't a millionaire doesn't show a whole lot of intelligence, either. And the only truth these days is on the web...but you have to question it all, use your head and do your own research. If something has feathers, a big wide beak and quacks, it's likely a duck...or a good impersonator:)

BC Mary, you're absolutely right about the BC press council. It's essentially a PR exercise for the publishers.

Yes an outsider or two make it on the council, but who knows how they were chosen.

I have never seen the council ever take a decisive stand against a newspaper, which tells me either Can/West and the Black chain of snewsers are perfect productions six days a week, 52 weeks of the year (oh, certainly) or the council needs to find the body, the knife and the culprit in action before it will call a screw up a screw up.

I like the idea of an independant or people's press council. There are many well informed and experienced people who could handle this task quite well.

They would beholden to no one and it might force some of these publishers to either clean up their act or officially don the court jester's outfit.

And if any of you think Can/west is the only baddy, have a look at one of the Black rags.
They have a new legislative columnist in Victoria by the name of Tom Fletcher.

Tyee readers will remember Tom for his vigorous defence of the Maple Ridge whatever it's called that he was editing at the time.

So far he's done one column on election finances that appears to be a crude effort to suggest the BC Teahers Federation spent tens of millions of members' dollars on the NDP.

His column, unfortunately appears to be more about apples and oranges rather than anything comparative or even balanced.

It suggests that corporate donations are miniscule compared to union donations although he conveniently left out the dollar for dollar comparisons.

Fletcher then went on to castigate the BCTF for using membership dues for politics.

Apparently he isn't yet aware that the BCTF, like all unions must make such decisions at convention and that the vast majority of members support the donations.

I wonder if shareholders ever get to express an opinion when corporate donations are handed over to Liberals.

Hello Tom, it's all about politics. Anyway for a guy who claimed to be objective Fletcher has quite a hate on for teachers and other unionists.

While most people would look at a Black rag and think, no wonder they are given away, consider that collectively Blacks papers reach several times more readers than the Sun and Province combined in small towns all over BC.

Often it's the only read available. Scary eh.

Someone mentioned the love affair of CanWest Global with the Greens. How about the disproportionate budget of the Greens compared to BCGEU's 3rd party advertising ?

I reckon the combined forces of the labour movement and the combined forces of Canwest cancel each other out in the propaganda race.

The NDP/union leadership VS CanWest/Gordo, sounds a lot like Godzilla VS Mechagodzilla, both created by unatural means and destroying everything in their path to beat the crap out of each other.

No wonder the voter turn out is the equivalent of evacuating the city of Tokyo !!!

sirjohna:

Thanks for the apology. For the future, if a union is going to take a strike vote, they have to make an application to the LRB before they do so. You will know days in advance that public school teachers will be taking a strike vote. There will be no "secret" vote by the Richmond local; it will be province wide as we now have provincial bargaining with the BCTF as the bargaining agent for the teachers. Locals might be making motions, jump up and down, and argue with the BCTF executive that they should take a strike vote sooner rather than later, but it is the local reps and executive members who will make that call. Teachers are fed up. I don't doubt that we would have many locals take strike votes if it wasn't for the BCTF and provincial bargaining.

That teachers are talking about a future strike vote should be of no surprise to anyone. Teachers have been without a new contract for over 11 months. BCPSEA, the bargaining agent for the employers, has not really been bargaining at all. What do you do when the people across the table refuse to bargain? What do you do when they refuse to put their language on the table months after your contract has expired because they haven't done their job and consulted with local school boards enough? When the employer isn't taking you seriously, you probably make contingency plans in case they continue to stick their tongues out at you from across the table.

The only way this dispute will get resolved with a compromise is if Gordon Campbell comes to the table with the BCTF and starts negotiations in good faith. The BCPSEA bargaining unit is meaningless in my opinion. They have never been able to negotiate a contract with anyone.

Teachers are hopeful that they don't have to take a strike vote. Teachers know how important their jobs are and don't want to go on strike. But, if backed up against the wall, what choice do they have?

I hope that the BCTF and the provincial government negotiate an agreement that meets everyone's needs. If Gordon Campbell continues his attacks on teachers and the profession, however, you can bet that the strike vote will be bigger than the 91.4% it was in 2001.

I think you can forget the information you are getting from your Richmond teacher "friend". His/her information seems second hand and misinterpreted in the very least. I can tell you that you really don't know what you are talking about when it comes to teacher strikes and bargaining.

Now that everyone's gone to sleep: my rant.

Big corportations decided 25 years ago on a multi-pronged attack on democracy -- on what they call the "welfare state" and what is in reality the possibility of creating caring communities.

Their tactics include establishment of legitimitizing institutes... Fraser, etc... and ensuring only voices friendly to their aims survive in the media. And much more.

Including hiring stooges to disrupt blOgs, like JIm/Brennan, above.

Anyone who suggests CanWest waa anywhere near neutral in the past provincical election can let me know how many times during the campaign all of CanWest made numerous sneering references to Glen -- for, in reality NOT giving a casino licence to a neighbour who gave him a knife and helped him build a porch -- in comparison to the number or references to Gordo getting millions for giving big coporations billions in tax cuts.

Oh yeah, I forgot.

Immediacy, currency... now-ness. Big important values for news media, especially dailies.

But how many CanWest articles during the campaign focused on issues from the past decade/century/millenium? While ignoring the plight of children (especially those with special needs) in the 2000s?

It's only people new to BC who fall for Canwest.

Helen Thomas said it all during a short interview on the Mike Web show. She has been moved from the front of the room to the back and not allowed to ask Bush any questions. When she asks Scot M a question NONE of the other reporters ask back up questions. Mike asked her what is going on with the press today? She said, 'the whitehouse press is (has become) complicit and compliant.
She asks brave questions and is a little lady past 80 years. What's the matter with the rest of the core?

Complicit and Compliant.

A free press is vital for democracy and we are suffering for the lack of it.

The Downing St memo has faded into obscurity. Can you imagine? Although, it may be pick up steam later with the call for impeachment starting.

I don't know who buys the Sun and Province. But, they must not do very well as Frank pointed out. That other little free mag (not 24hrs, or dose) was so partisan it was shocking. I bet it quietly goes out of business now that the election is over.

chris; i'm sure i know much more than you are assuming, even though i misinterpreted the richmond information. for example i know that the liberals spent far more on education than the ndp had projected to spend, but the bctf still claim that they made cuts. i also know that many of the 'cuts' that the individual school boards made were very necessary and effective. the library at my daughter's high school costs $150k/year to run, and you can spit from one end to another. why? a full time teacher-librarian at $70k/year, plus a full time cupe assistant, plus a healthy budget to buy books, computers, audio/video equipment etc. i also know that it made sense to close some schools, which is why carole james refused to promise to reopen them,
and that the unionists pump up the rhetoric and distort truths to give teachers the impression that they are working in 'draconian' conditions. i also know that bad teachers are almost impossible to fire, and there are plenty of them around. in short our kids and our education system have become a political football to a bunch of ideologues who care mostly about their own agenda, and that is simply not right.

As long as Global continues to play re-runs of "Friends", BC'ers are content ..............

Bad teachers may be almost impossible to fire, but how do we fire crooked media moguls, self appointed aristocracies and multinationals who steal us blind, yet so dear to the hearts of the Campbell gang, who claim that they are "wealth creating economy" ? Yes, with part time, minimum wage jobs. How do we fire, or take to account multinationals with pages of criminal and civil convictions on their record all over the world, who are welcomed into the country, take over our resources and services, fire thousands so they can divert their incomes out, but have the right to sue us for billions under NAFTA and WTO rules, if there's the slightest suspicion that certain government actions are cutting into their profits ? Ed Deak, Big Lake.

sirjohn, the fact that you find it unreasonable to spend money on a high school library is, quite frankly, disturbing. $70K/year for a librarian? I admit that I don't know the facts, but I find this one hard to believe. And please lay off accusing the unions of pumping out the rhetoric and then turn around and make claims about there being so many bad teachers in the systems that are hard to fire. You show so much disdain for a group that spends a lot of time with your children. Why is that?

redrivergirl,

you wrote:

"The Downing St memo has faded into obscurity. Can you imagine? Although, it may be pick up steam later with the call for impeachment starting."

If you are referring to the Sun article: British memo a smoking gun - pointed at George Bush (Don Gardner, Ottawa Citizen)I commented on it at the time here on The Tyee.

I felt compelled, also, to write to the Sun but didn't do so believing that any of a deluge of letters on the illegal war against Iraq, that the "secret" memo appeared to confirm, would have been favoured over mine.

If letters were submitted not one appeared. Quite surprising, since we are talking a war crime in which thousands have been slaughtered.

I don't doubt that if G.W. were to have tossed one of the White House dogs into the rotor of his chopper and he were to have stir-fried the outcome, that a flood of letters would have ensued.

Full-time librarians! An assistant! books! Why it's almost as if a library is an essential part of learning. C'mon John, surely even a right-wingnut such as yourself can see that 150k a year for a school library is well within the realm of common sense once you factor in all the costs. As for 70k per year per librarian, where did you get this number? Surely it's not more hearsay?

As for kids and education becoming a political football, it may not be right, but the 'right' has had as big a hand in making it so as any other group.

You need to do what you tell the rest of us to do. Drop the idealogical rhetoric and see things for what they really are. Surely even you Freepers can understand that education is the best investment a society can make, as it pays dividends for years after one leaves the education system. Or does 'the system' prefer its sheep stupid and easily fooled?

As for those of you proudly proclaiming you don't watch tv, or read the paper... how do expect to understand and combat the p.o.v. of your adversary if you ignore them? Ignorance isn't bliss in this case. Wilful ignorance suggests (to me) you're more interested in being right in your own mind than actually seeking solutions w/out regard to the source.

The scariest concept in this thread is the amount of people calling for more bias in journalism... as long as it's the bias they hold dear. Anti-thetical to what the press is supposed to do.

I am not a sheep, despite how the media (in general) tries to get my attention/subscription/money!

The problem is likely more about discourse and discussion, debate and aknowledgement.

I would love to see a hard copy of the daily newspaper (whichever) posted on a bulletin board (you may have seen similar scenes in CCCP/Russia) in a public square. I think that such a scene would generate a lot of discussion amongst the citizens - point counter point. A back and forth dialogue rather than a one way dialogue!

Why do you suppose a newspaper would reduce the amount of space for letters to the editor by asking people to include a photo of themselves along with the letter?

With the politics of the day (including contracting out; P3s; talk of trying, or implying, to take away the right to strike, taking Why would anyone in their right mind choose teaching, nursing or being a librarian nowadays (besides the value of teaching others, caring for others and being the holder of knowledge-especially when the power is out!).

Please note, I respect those involved in the above noted livlihoods.

mbraun; because it's the most important job in the world, and the union shouldn't be protecting the bad teachers as vehemently as they do.
as for the salary, it's correct. in my daughter's district a teacher with 12 years of experience and a master's degree makes $69,857/year. add a department head allowance of about $2000/year and you have almost $72k/year. you people that are outraged that a teacher/librarian makes this kind of money for running a library the size of a peanut stand are only supporting my contention that it's not an efficient use of resources.

I'm starting to think that CanWestGoebbel's ASPERations have been pretty well exposed.

oh truman you are sooooooooo clever.
how about the tyee's aspirations? i suppose they're kosher b/c they are right for the cause?

Notice some commentators complain that Gutstein is just setting the stage for 4 more years of complaining by the NDP - see "jim's" comments above (there are more than enough of them). And what pray tell was the main point of Campbell's campaign if it wasn't an endless litany of complaints about previous NDP admininstrations combined with a pathological fear of actually confronting his own record. The BCLiberals and their fellow travellers in the media and business can hardly sustain that argument!

freebear,

You wrote:

"Why do you suppose a newspaper would reduce the amount of space for letters to the editor by asking people to include a photo of themselves along with the letter?"

You have noticed it too.

A week or so ago one of our dailies had not one reader's letter at all.

Open public discourse is very much under attack - even on the Web. Although there was undoubted and inevitable abuse (nothing that couldn't have been handled)I'm convinced that the CBC, just prior to the last federal election, closed down its National News message boards because the directors had been "got at" and its funding was put under threat.

Blogs can in no way compare to the cut and thrust of the loosely controlled message boards - particularly the Open Topic, Pet Peeves or News of the Day type of board.

You may have noticed that the media recently have frequently referred to the blog scene - appear to be pushing it even. The reason is, I believe, that with the thousands, if not millions, of bloggers vying for attention, no matter the message, it is so swamped as to be diluted. It might be compared to the "paper blizzard" heaped on a small law firm with a truckload of documents intended to hide pertinent information, in that excellent movie Class Action.

Funny thing, we hear a lot about so called working people getting "inefficient" wages, but never of the multimillion dollar takings of CEOs.
How can anybody "earn" millions in a year. What benefit is Jim Pattison to BC, apart from cutting people's hours to part time so he won't have to pay benefits and firing them at will ? How much is he taking home, apart from the millions in tax deductible benefits accounted as business expenses ? I worked for those type of people in my Vancouver years and have written enough invoices to companies for jobs done, instead to the individuals. I'd bet there are hundreds of people and machinery working on personal projects across BC right now, accounted as tax deductible business expenses. Why isn't anybody complaining about that? How about the $300.000 plus salary of the American CEO of BC Ferries, so he could take half a billion to Germany, without even giving a chance for BC companies to bid on the job? The fast ferries may have been poor design, but there was nothing wrong with the workmanship and quality.
So, let's have a bit of balance in the criticsm of people's incomes. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Help me with this..

If people are free to move about this Province and this Country as they wish and are free to decide if they want or do not want to have/raise children (apparently the birth rate here is going down or is that part of the freeper neocon mainstream media con too) how is it possible that with this fundamental to.ing and fro.ing of the universal diaspora that from time to time it would not be the prudent/common sense thing to close/move/or relocate some schools. Should we have a school open for 1 student?, or 3? or 26 or what cutoff number exactly. Gee maybe 0 would be the choice in the old Marist Leninist model. Some BC School districts have less total students than some busy individual BC schools.

Go Jinny go

Don't fool yourselves about the CBC, yes they have a tidbit of real news but are mainly right wing. The private media hores are extreme right wing while the CBC tries to appear balanced.

One example, "a protest off 3 , I'll say it again 3 parents held up signs saying kids come first no strike vote" this became front page news. While a month earlier over 4000 folks including myself marched protesting the illegal occupation of Iraq, we shut down streets and closed major intersections of town, nothing , not even a mention. Many folks drove by us dumfounded at what was happening. Imagine you could be walking down a street and find 100's of citizens killed or being arrested while the media ignores the incident in support of the classic ruling elite. You do not have a right to know. We all know CanWest and the other media hores, we all know there are also embedded folks who want the status quo. So what can we do about it...Their must be a process of
Tearing it down and building it up... Unless of course your content.

The worst outcome of this debate is that we do nothing and just wine about it.

If everyone just did something small their good at we could change the way the media works
Overnight . Tearing it down,
Pick your poison, 1) Direct action, 2) use the courts and regulators, email the Canadian Broadcast standards counsel by the 1000's and challenge false news stories, 3) Have monthly protest meetings or town halls regarding the shitty job CanWest is doing. 4) Tune out, don't give them any ratings, the audience is falling by the day. 5) Large scale boycotts of advertisers.
Call or email the advertisers saying you will no longer support them etc. Have entire communities boycott them. 6) Treat every false news story like a racist comment, light your hair on fire.

Building it up...
Support independent media, by your money or your time. 102.7 Co Op radio or the tyee etc.
Like stump says, build up your own media.
JUST DO SOMETHING, Germany and the UK and France have large Dailey newspapers that are left
Leaning supported by big labor. Hey why not in Canada, give some balance.

We live in the belly of the beast , the whole world is hoping we have the courage to scratch.
Look what ordinary folks did yesterday in Bolivia, poor people fighting for justice while we line up at Wal Mart wondering what to do.

"According to Black Press BC Bureau, in 2004 the BC Liberal Party collected $8.22 million in contributions plus with other fundraising and product sales, a total of $8.57 million. Of this, over $5.million came from corporations and $838,000 from unincorporated business and commercial organizations. Just over $2. million came from individual donations, with $1.5 million in contributions over $250.

The NDP collected $3.68 million in contributions, plus product sales etc. to a total of $4.19 million. Of this $3.17 million came from individuals, with more than half in donations of $250. or less.

In other words, corporate/business contributions to the Liberals were almost double of the NDP's total income."

Where are the third party figures? Oh i forgot you are conveniently leaving out figures that go against the point your trying to make. When you make a point about party financing then leave out third party figures it makes your post essentially meaningless becasue it's only only showing a portion of the entire picture. Why isn't the BCTF's warchest they amassed in your financing post?

Its impossible to even begin to document canwests litany of lies and propaganda enlisted to aid the corrupt liberal banana regime.(unless you tape their newscasts and collect their papers that is) Their editorials are always one-sided and biased towards corporate control of our country (I guess I should say "their country")
Their one-sided shilling for the liberals is beyond disgraceful as evidenced by their treatment on the news last night of bc's shameful F environmental rating. It was mentionned by the newshour bimbo for one second, half an hour into the broadcast just before a commercial break. Good work a$$holes

"Including hiring stooges to disrupt blOgs, like JIm/Brennan, above."

Not hired, just get fed up with ignorant posts and sites that portray themselves as unbiased and righteous, when in fact they are worse than the people they are criticizing.

It's kind of like the new age "documentary" makers who attack businesses and corporations then use the infrastructure built by corporations to make millions for themselves.

JIm, why must you continue to beat a dead horse. Third party figures? The amount labour donates to the ndp is small; it is included in the final numbers that you cite. the point that you somehow always miss is that the largest proportion of bc lib money comes from the corporate sector; the largest proportion of ndp contributions come from individual donations. Yes, yes! I know that you're going to go on about the bctf's commericials and how that's not included in the final donation numbers. But unless you're going to answer for Jimmy P. et al. commericials about the overblown booming economy, move along sir.

stuart; does this make david beers a 'media whore'?

Once again you know that third party figures even the financing picture out so you ignore those facts. Classic move. I am waiting for all those figures to come out. Then you won't be able to hide behind your lies anymore. Just keep you head in the sand. Maybe one day you'll pull it out and take a glance at reality and not just spoon fed union and NDP spin.

"Phantom Big Labour" yeah sure.
I'd like to see the title, "How the NDP's previous record botched this election for them."
Or how about, "How the BC electorate only wanted to vote in an opposition and ended up voting in more than desired numbers of NDP."
Remember Joy Macphail ADMITTING the BC media treated her fairly over her 14 years?
How about those that fund this site?

Jamez do you mean the BC Fed. I hear they're unbiased. HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAH.

mbraun; the union's campaigns totalled somewhere around $9 million. that includes the bctf, bcfed, bcgeu, heu, cupe, etc. but it doesn't include the number of teachers, janitors, nurses etc. who phoned in sick on election day so they could work for the local ndp candidate working the phones and driving voters to the polling booths.

Jim.... shhhhh Don't say that around these parts!

SirJohnA, your analysis suggests a very shallow understanding of what has been happening in many of our children's schools.

1) Our school's budget for buying library books is about 20% of what it was 10 years ago and our books are literally falling apart (this is on top of cuts to librarian time at a school where tackling lagging literacy rates among our mostly ESL students is the #1 accreditation goal!). The decimation of school libraries and its significance have been extensively documented (and clearly explained to the public by CanWest columnists, among others, so I won't go on about it).

2) Parent groups complained of underfunding of special ed, etc under the NDP but things got far worse after 2002 when the BC Liberals legislated a teachers' salary increase that they refused to fund. They also imposed other significant unfunded costs like MSP premiums while freezing funding levels for several years. They increased funding in the lead-up to elections, restoring only part of what they'd effectively "cut".

3) The BC Liberals also changed the education funding formula in 2002, lumping special funding "pots" into the basic per student amount, thus enabling the claim that they'd increased per student funding. These changes placed an extra burden on some student groups and districts, like kids with special needs and districts with falling enrolment, while softening the blow for districts like Surrey with growing numbers. (Fixed school overheads don't rise & fall in direct proportion to enrolment, although funding now does just that.) And a stunningly partisan pre-election Ministry press release lied in claiming that funding for special ed was increased under the BC Liberals, when their own figures show it was cut dramatically from 2000/01.

4) In districts like Vancouver with near-stable enrolment and relatively high numbers of ESL and special needs kids, the result was bigger class sizes for intermediate and secondary kids and cuts to critical support staff (just like the BCTF said) along with less money for school supplies and books. We've had as close to a consensus as ever seen among Vancouver parents, teachers, principals, School Board staff and Trustees that this has hurt many students, especially the most vulnerable.

5)In light of the unfunded cost increases under the BC Liberals, it's disingenuous to state that they spent more on education than the NDP had projected (before any of these new costs were imposed).

6) Just before the recent elections, I and other parents asked candidates from the three main parties whether they would in future fully fund any additional costs imposed on school boards. The NDPs and Greens said yes, while the Liberals ducked the question and all sent us the same canned message from Liberal HQ explaining what a great job they'd done.

7) Before opining that schools should have closed anyway, you should visit the village of Wells, BC and drive the 75-odd km of dangerous mountain roads in winter, which is what their 15 - 20 elementary students would have had to do twice daily, to get to the next closest school (you may recall that their school was among the few saved, following a special deal with the community after a high-profile hunger strike).

8)And before suggesting that all is well, you also should visit classes like my son's Grade 4 class of 30 last year, which included mostly ESL students and several with special needs, but with a fraction of the supports available just 3 years earlier. By year-end, the teacher was close to a breakdown (she quit) and parents pulled several of the neediest students out from a public system that was clearly failing them.

If you want objective facts on education funding under the BC Liberals, do like I did and ask the provincial Accountants' Association, which did an in-depth analysis last year. The Ministry of Ed challenged the way inflation was calculated, so the end result was two competing views about how much was effectively cut (something like 0.1% cuts vs. 4% cuts). But the net result overall was somewhere between a negligible or a significant cut--certainly not a gain, and certainly some were hurting more than others, as even a Liberal-dominated legislative committee conceded last Fall.

I fully support the free expression and debate of diverse views and ideas in these forums, but not those who--intentionally or in the heat of passion--abuse that privilege by citing misleading "facts" (or who simply resort to insults) to bolster weak arguments that cannot, on their own merits, win others over to a particular viewpoint.

Name, would you rather go back to the old system where you can't break down what is being spent per student? I know the BCTF would.

name; i've been involved in parent advisory councils for 16 years and i've been coaching school sports, alongside teachers, for 6 years. i contend that the conditions in b.c. schools have not deteriorated since the liberals took power, especially not to the extent that the vsb, which is about as left as you can get, claims it has. the game is politics and the rhetoric works on some. such a telling sign that the liberals achieved such a solid majority even though our province's students are learning in such draconian conditions. didn't realize there were so many non-parents in b.c.

Gee, I have another identity and I don't know it. Really, people, I do not know who JIm is, but I am Brennan. I don't mind people knowing who I am and what I believe in.

When do I get paid?

"such a telling sign that the liberals achieved such a solid majority"

If that's your opinion you might want to talk to whoever taught you math johna, cuz a majority they may have, but 'solid' isn't the right description. 'Narrow' is more accurate.

http://www.elections.bc.ca/elections/ge2005/results/ALL_Results%20by%20Candidate.htm

I consider the popular vote a more accurate reflection of people's p.o.v. than the number of candidates sent to Victoria. As the above website indicates, the number of votes cast for the NDP or Libs are fairly close to each other.

I know that most of us know this, but it seems to have escaped sirjohna.

Uh,...and now the librarian, the janitor, and the nurse who exercised their individual rights to participate in the democratic process are "BIG LABOUR" if they volunteered for NDP candidates; whereas their neighbours (surely some of whom were also librarians, janitors and nurses), who called into radio shows, put up Liberal lawn signs, or volunteered for Liberal candidates were, what... normal citizens?

Your comments suggest an underlying conviction that's common among fervently partisan BC Liberals--i.e. that anyone who doesn't support your team must be working for evil unions (because it is inconceivable that anyone would genuinely question anything in the BC Liberals' record). It's an unrealistic view and it's contradicted by the majority of individual BC voters who, in the privacy of the poll booth (and momentarily safe from the clutches of evil unions) voted for other parties in the recent elections. Moreover, many of us who did so "are not, nor have we ever been a member of" any union--evil or otherwise.

Third party campaigns undeniably impact politics, but they are a valuable part of the process, allowing everyone from labour groups and business groups to disability groups to air their views and concerns so that voters can make informed decisions. It's also undeniable that money buys visibility, and that means that big business, big unions and other well-resourced interests like doctors tend to be heard more than groups with fewer resources (like the poor), especially when the mainstream media are not inclined to provide some balance.

But if more groups and individuals are airing anti-Liberal messages in third party campaigns and voting against them in elections, it clearly means that the BC Liberals have not been responsive to the citizens whom they were elected to serve, not that these groups are somehow being unfair or unreasonable!

I thought Prof Gutstein's piece was even lamer than anything CanWest's stable of barking seals regularly churns out. And gave CanWest entirely too much credit for influencing BC voters.

Kind of reminded me of Britain's doyen of the left, journalist Polly Toynbee, who led an entirely unsuccessful campaign to have voters submit photos of themselves to the Guardian, wearing noseplugs while they voted for Tony Blair's Labour.

SirJohnA, if these concerns were invented by our "leftwing" Vancouver trustees, why did the majority of Vancouver voters just vote against the BC Liberals? How about the four (very nearly 5) Vancouver Liberal MLAs who lost their seats to the likes of Mr. Chudnovsky of all people!

You should attend a PAC meeting at my child's Vancouver shool, where ordinary parents--mostly immigrants who came to Canada to give their kids a better future, not the union stooges that you imagine--are deeply concerned by what they've seen happening on the ground.

Your kneejerk reaction, once again, seems to be that if "leftwing trustees' say it's so, it can't possibly be true. Those leftwing trustees, you may recall, were elected in a dramatic sweep by angry Vancouver voters after even our old NPA School Board complained about BC Liberal cuts in 2002, and after almost every one of our 100-odd PACs joined the SOS campaign to denounce the unfunded cost increases.

Excellent article, thank you Donald Gutstein and Tyee. OK, so we know about CanWest. I'm more concerned about the creeping tentacles of compromised media -- like the Globe and Mail, and CBC Radio.

If anyone's interested, check out the Globe's pre-BC election coverage. They (coincidentally?) launched a BC Edition in the month before the election. The articles in this new segment were shockingly one-sided, even embarrassing. Gary Mason's love-letter to Carole Taylor, the front page photo of Daniel Igali the weekend before the election... Amazing. I don't know how the editor can look people in the eye. Thought he was one of the good ones. AFTER the election, Gary Mason brings up some criticism of their coverage, saying that the Globe was right to feature the NDP's ties to big labour but that nobody cared about the Liberals ties to big business. Nobody cared?!? If you're ever looking for something to do, go to a library and do an analysis of each issue of the Globe's new BC Edition prior to, then just after the election. Mind boggling how they can call themselves professional journalists. Let's not kid ourselves folks, Canada could become like another South American dictatorship in no time. History is full of examples where the greedy and complicit side with rich and powerful bullies.

Then, of course, there's CBC Vancouver Radio. They featured the "star candidates" in as many segments as they could dream up (young candidates, ethnic candidates, etc.). Pria Ramu exclaimed how NICE it was to see the premier out at a Indo-Canadian sports event she attended (he was there to hand over money for bleachers). Fawning over Wally Oppal, no comments about how seemly it is or is not for a BC judge to become a candidate for a party whose employees have been charged with criminal offenses involving government deals... Come to think of it, just where is the coverage of those criminal cases? Maybe Wally got that sorted out before he left? Just wondering.

So, yes, even our most vaunted news sources have become tainted. Do they not teach ethics in journalism schools anymore? Probably went the way of ethics in business I guess. Like how a US judge recently over-turned the conviction of Arthur Anderson in their shredding of Enron files because it couldn't be proven they knew they were doing anything wrong!! (I guess you need a university degree to know right from wrong -- no, wait, they have degrees up the ying-yang).You know Arthur Anderson, they now call themselves Accenture and have been hired by the BC Liberals to process our healthcare records.

Yes, the media has now joined the muck of the corporate and political world. Truly, a fearsome unholy triumverate. It's their world, and the rest of us just live in it. We hope.

Then there's squeaky clean beauty queen Carole Taylor, who only wants to "serve." Queen of ethics?? Well, she was head of CBC when CBC Vancouver Radio altered the response of George Bush posed by a British reporter at a news conference Bush held with Tony Blair to declare the "war" in Iraq was over. CBC Vancouver Radio used quotes from an earlier prepared speech read by Bush instead of his actual response to the reporter's questions. Made Bush look positively leader-like. Fake, totally fake, and boy did it make Bush look good. Broadcast across BC. The CRTC upheld the complaint on the falsification and CBC Vancouver was forced to recant. But, the CBC staff who faked the item did not lose their jobs, and there was no public broadcast of the "error." All under Carole Taylor's watch as head of CBC at the time. We all best watch out what she does in the future with out futures.

Unfortunately, many of the people who re-elected the Liberals don't think too much. You know those Lower Mainland Liberals insist that wild salmon be on the menu, but don't seem to get it that there soon may be no more wild salmon. They also idn't seem to notice that though Campbell urged us all not to forget the fish farm workers, he never said a word of support for fishermen/women, those who catch and carefully husband the wild stock, those who are fighting to save their jobs because the wild stock is in trouble. Funny, eh?

Talk about funny? Funny how media didn't report things before the election. Did anyone notice that the poison found in the Stolt Fish Farms near Campbell River was first discovered about three months ago??? Funny, how that didn't make headlines then, eh? Don't you also wonder why you haven't heard broadcast which stock numbers on canned salmon you should avoid? Man, whenever there's a problem with some sort of of food item, we're immediately told what product codes to look for and so on. Doesn't the fish farm factories have that kind of saftey system in place? If not, why not? Just my latest examples of media/government/corporate observation.

One last thing -- I've found it oh-so-easy to scroll right past the entries from the jims and johns, and concentrate instead on the thoughtful, concerned missives. The jims and johns are only there to hi-jack the site, and it's a waste of time to engage in debates with them. When we do that, they are successful in gumming up the site. Just a thought.

Great stuff, Sunny Samson. Thanks!

I didn't know about the fake editing making Dubya look good on CBC and would have jumped off a bridge (not really) had I even imagined the Mother Corp doing such a thing.

We must safeguard the old girl, however (CBC, not Carol)as she's really the link that holds Canada together. Which, of course, worries the neocons who believe (correctly) that deep divisions make us easier for them to manage.

Good advice about scrolling past the trolls ... I've been doing that, too.

Thanks for the comments, Sunny! I enjoyed the entirety but was most jolted by comment quoted above. I see the trends, the complicity, the apathy, the "I'm alright Jack", the shameful silence, the bowing of heads, the avoidance of genuine political/philosophical debate, and on and on...

And I see that this is how relatively liberal, wealthy (and therefore complacent?) societies can be reconfigured and recast as raging moneygrubbing, evangelical, frothing at the mouth, softened down and oft inadvertent fascists. And it's f'ing disturbing!!

As to the "jims and johns": they're good for a one off or two with no back up whatsoever. And I choose to ignore until there shows up a little more than a bark or puke sound from the gutter.

How Ironic

No, that's not someone talkin' about JIm, that is JIm. I would consider him an expert on ignorant posts though, as he posts the most, when it comes to ignorant posts.

Sunny;

"Come to think of it, just where is the coverage of those criminal cases? Maybe Wally got that sorted out before he left? Just wondering." Coverage of this has been everywhere... what are you reading? Was it also not the MSM that broke the story?
Ethics are still taught, in fact at Langara College they're taught by Allen Garr

name; you missed the point again. those campaigns were financed by union dues, and individual members had absolutely no choice in how their monies were spent. you lefties call it democracy if it suits the cause, otherwise it's oppression and tyranny and blather blather blather.
richard stewart was defeated b/c the coquitlam teacher's association got the vote out while the school board picked up the tab for the subs that day. his wife is also a teacher, so she must help finance his opponent with her union dues. nice.

jamez, please share your sources for all this information that is everywhere concerning the raid on the ledge and the charges against Birk and Vasi, about which everyone else has been kept in the dark. Why is their trial being delayed longer than that of Saddam Hussein and whose crimes are being covered up in the meantime? Why have all the Fiberal heavyweights apparently closest to the stink now back in private hiding....oops, I mean private life? Please jamez, curious people want to know.

Thoughtful piece, Sunny. I share your concerns about the creep of deferential journalism to the CBC and the Globe. What's needed is a closer look at why the mainstream media is acting this way--I suspect there may be a bunch of different reasons.

For a start, it's natural that owners and higher managers at CanWest Global and Bell Globe Media (Globe & Mail, CTV) would see largely eye to eye with the BC Liberals, as an unapologetically pro-business political party. In the past, left-leaning journalists provided tension and balance to these right-wing pressures, and as long as there was open competition, things tended to even out.

CanWest still has some strong, credible writers who challenge the BC Liberals, but they rarely make it to Page 1 and don't get enough profile to balance the overall impression of cheerleading. Likewise, some hard-hitting reporting by the Globe and CBC didn't seem to balance the prevailing flow. Maybe the MSM are just more dominated today by comfortable, upper-middle-class, middle-aged people who are less into challenging the status quo. Or maybe it's just a reflection of our times.

Part of it may be, as one commentator above noted, that the NDP was not effective in setting the agenda for debate, because that's half the story right there. But their cautious approach was perhaps not surprising, given their trouncing in 2001, and this may well change if Carol James is able to provide effective leadership.

Another factor is us. Nearly everyone wants a healthy environment, sustainable development, social justice, good schools and healthcare where and when we need it. But when it comes to actually paying for all these things, most people aren't willing to put their money on the table. Asked to choose between a strong economy and more take-home pay vs. more modest lifestyles and say, more social justice, most people will choose the former. To that exetn, the media, and our political parties, are only reflecting and playing out those tensions and contradictions.

All you need to do is pay attention to any regular news source. I quite often hear reports on it... at least once a week (Mostly on the radio). A delayed trial? Trials are delayed ALL the time... for many legit reasons... I'm not so familiar with this that I could tell you what those reasons are off the bat. But as someone familiar with the system I'll tell you it's probably anything from case building to problems setting dates that correspond with everyone.
It's very easy for a defence to stall a trial and to say it's some kind of conspiracy with the government involved is a bit outlandish.

jamez, there may be weekly reports, but they contain no information

There's not always information to report. If nothing new has been released, then there is nothing to report. And you'd have to be a pretty ballsy reporter to report if there are any publication bans (Of which I'm unaware in this case).
In my experience court moves so slowly sometimes often an appearence results in nothing more than a date for another appearence.... and that results in a date for another appearence.. nothing seems to get done.

Well jamez, the fact remains that the unprecedented warrant on the ledge was executed almost one and a half years ago now and there hasn't even been an explanation as to why the two aides were treated differently. Why was one fired and the other suspended with pay? It is a matter of the public interest and the public deserves to know what is being done with their money and in their name in their legislature. With no information it smells like a cover-up.

If it was a coverup do you think it would have been reported on in the first place?
There's obviously details... however much of it could be information that could effect a trial, hence not be released.
It will all come out sooner or later.

Compare the coverage of the Birk-Vasi affair by all MSM to the virtually live around the clock coverage of the Glen Clark deck minor league scandal. Now tell me that the MSM, which in BC is mainly CanWest isn't biased and I will have to assumme you reside on some other planet.

Actually Black press owns most of the Print media in B.C. Then Standard radio owns alot of the broadcast press. Canwest owns mostly the dailies and some TV.
The difference is with Glark it directly involved the premier. How about Gord's drunk driving charge that was huge news? The media pounced on that.

There was really no choice about reporting the raid on the legislature, I mean how could a herd of mounties carting boxes and boxes of documents down the steps into vans be ignored. They had to report on that, as too many people could see that it happened. It wasn't necessary to surround Glen Clark's home with cameras, filming into his house at night, but they did. Then for weeks after, even though a trial was pending, the papers and evening news were filled with speculation concerning everyone possibly involved. Oh, by the way, in the end Glen Clark was cleared of wrongdoing.

SirJohnA, I think the question of democratic rank and file support for the BCTF's political campaign has been put to bed, many times over, so let's give it a rest if that's all you've got left to say.

...and we both know that CanWest would be running daily screaming headlines if they could find more than Richard Stewart's wife and a handful of other teachers who felt their dues were mis-spent. But then the NDP would find a handful of contractors or businesspeople who didn't support their associations' campaigns either, and round and round we'd go in silly circles...

...and if all those union folks didn't support their unions' campaigns, as you seem so convinced is true, why would they help to unseat so many Liberal MLAs? Or perhaps you think it was big business that furtively came out en masse to elect Mr. Chudnovsky & co? Perhaps it was a union plot to rig the electronic voting machines? (Oops, I forgot, we don't have electronic voting!)

...and I can't figure out who the evil unions are really working for, in your mind, if they're not representing the collective will of their members. (Perhaps that's where the evil electronic voting conspiracy scam is actually happening?)

...and as for Coquitlam, perhaps you're unaware that many parent groups and PACs were just as strong and active in highlighting concerns about education cuts (I realize you'd never have known that from reading CanWest's education coverage but we "lefties" have our bush telegraphs). As in Vancouver, it was the strong consensus among parents of all political stripes, teachers, principals and school board people that made such a compelling case re the impact of education cuts under the Liberals.

...and finally, maybe if Mr. Stewart had paid more attention to his wife and/or her colleagues, he'd be back in Victoria, instead of looking for a DPAC seat in Coquitlam. I wish him well there, though--it will surely be educational if he is willing to start listening--a skill that the remaining Liberal MLAs would be very wise to start learning.

NAME: You're right it boils down to; for every unhappy union member I'll show you a happy one.
Hmmmm.....

What about Campbell?

rkewen

ALso, many here are suggesting the fuzz is involved in a cover up too... why would they arrest someone then cover it up?

The Jim's and John's,sirjohna etc have just become white noise, they are only hear to side track meaningful debate of anykind. (Probably paid party hacks like we had at election time) Why try and debate them when they are sick people, they have become sick and indoctrinated by the system they protect. Like Cknw says, its all the big bad unions. BLA BLA BLA. Power in the hands of ordinary people and not the CEO's scares the crap out of Jim and others.

We know what the media is and the power it wields. Good post Sunny. It was judge Gomery that refused to release the documents on the Bassi Virk trial. The same judge that didn't mind taking a time out on his vacation to sign the Glenn Clarke Search warrant for a casino bid aka porch reno. Remember the porch reno story on day after day for months vs the dead silence over the Bassi Virk trial, a trial that is attached to organized crime , money laundering etc etc. Part of the BC Rail deal was already stopped due to this investigation.

It was actually quite a spectacle to see what happened this time around, the last week or so we seen a media frenzy to get Gordo elected , all the feel good stories on the economy etc did nothing to stop the seething anger on the streets and the masses of people hurt. In the end we see the teachers strike thing pushed to silly levels. A devaluing of as many NDP candidates as possible, (they served under Glenn Clarke etc or their just big union bosses etc) And CBC on election day 2 hours before the polls closed mentioned no less than 8 times that the NDP was really getting the vote out, especially the West End Burrard riding, they kept mentioning line ups out the door etc. AKA come on Liberal supporters better get you ass to the polls.

SO WHAT to do, see my above posts for some ideas. Any plans of action Sunny, want to kick some ass
they lost the popular vote overall and in 12 ridings including Gordos they only won due to the green split. Lets take on the media, come on folks ideas please.

"they kept mentioning line ups out the door etc. AKA come on Liberal supporters better get you ass to the polls."

The subjective paranoia around here is laughable sometimes

name; you give great blather, but you really haven't said much. i have never said that unions are evil, in fact i support them on principle, but not when they morph into an extremely partisan political organization. the bctf's leadership is dominated by politicos. there are certainly more than just a few teachers who disagree with them at this time though, and as the grey hairs disappear from the ranks you will see a change in their agenda to be sure.

No one should doubt for a moment that court cases with political overtones are intentionally scheduled post-election. Doug Walls' fraud case went to court the day after the election.

Kim Campbell famously stated that an election campaign was no time to discuss serious issues. While that statement was deservedly ridiculed, the kernel of truth is that you'll get more partisan rhetoric than reasoned debate when passions are inflamed in the heat of a campaign, so many major public policy issues are shelved during election campaigns, not just court cases.

Judges are obliged to weigh the accused's right to a fair trial against the public's right to know. The role of the media on this issue is an entirely different story, and we certainly did not see coverage consistent with the standard set the Glen Clark deck-gate scandal.

well done stuart; i can hear the troops rallying as we speak. of course if we disagree with you we must be paid hacks. who else would dare to disagree with your ingenuous ideas? by the way, you really shouldn't try to claim that the cbc was a part of the great canwest conspiracy b/c when you do you sound even more delusional than the rest of the commercial drive lefties.

Is it a good debate if only like minded people are participating in group think? I thought that was called a pep rally.

NAME: Has a trial date even been set? You know prosecution and defence have a say in that too. Have they even had a pre-trial conference?

sirjohna: you have to remeber that the only correct news is the news that Stuart and Co argee with. Otherwise it's pure propaganda. Is there a progressive stamp similar to a kosher seal so I know what im getting is left wing approved.

So sorry that my "blather" offends you, Sir. I take it that little swipe means you're all tapped out?

In closing, I'd just say that you seem to trouble yourself unduly on behalf of all those poor helpless teachers, held captive by their evil "politico" leaders. Unless the evil electronic voting machine conspiracy scam turns out to be more than a figment of my imagination, I'm confident that they are--and have always been--quite capable of democratically electing "politicos" who will represent their interests in the political process, and democratically rejecting any political campaigns that they do not support.

(P.S. Pray tell, how does one get oneself politically elected to head a political organization by being other than a "politico"? And do pray tell, how are outspoken union leaders any different or any less legitimate than Phil Hochstein and co doing their political thing to protect their constituencies against perceived threats posed by the NDP?)

BC Mary, I agree - an excellent and interesting post by Sunny Sampson but I have a problem with offering advice on whose posts should be ignored.

All of us,including the one who posts the editorial to which we respond (when we're on topic) could be said to be "trolling".

......
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out.
....
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.
... Robert Frost - Mending Wall

We have this most awesome tool of communication - definitely scary to some. What a shame that there are those that must involve themselves in the petty head games.

Jamez, I don't know the details of this particular case, I was only commenting generally.

(P.S. Pray tell, how does one get oneself politically elected to head a political organization by being other than a "politico"? And do pray tell, how are outspoken union leaders any different or any less legitimate than Phil Hochstein and co doing their political thing to protect their constituencies against perceived threats posed by the NDP?)
thanks for agreeing that the bctf is a political organization. is that what unions are supposed to be? even buzz hargrove may disagree with you on that one. as for hochstein and co., huge difference. their constituents pay willingly to those campaigns and teachers, nurses and janitors do not. can you understand that yet name, or should i try again?

Stuart has been calling me a hack ( I think he said "political scum bag", actually) ever since I disagreed that telling someone to kiss their ass was a contribution to the debate.

I'm curious, Stuart, since you say you think I'm a paid hack - who or what cause do you think I'm hacking for? I think Canwest has demonstrated a clear bias, but don't know why the story that has generated this thread wasn't made in to an issue by the NDP. I thought the NDP had a real shot at winning this election which I thought was good, and I voted NDP. I think it was also good that the NDP didn't actuallu win for various reasons, and despite how much I really thought the Campbell liberals deserved to lose. I think the future looks good for both the NDP and STV, an initiative which I voted for despite reservations because I favour electoral reform. I think the federal tories are in better shape than conventional wisdom suggests....I think it was silly of you to protest the free trade agreement by marching down to your provincial MLA's office... etc, etc...

I might be wrong on any or all of those observations, but I can't imagine who would pay me to hold them!

Jim, If that were true, you'd be entirely ignored on this site, which from what I've seen is not the case.

It is rather pointless, though, to sit down to eat with people who are already full and who don't want to share in the meal. That's not directed at left, right or other--lots of people do it.

It's even more pointless engaging with people who are frustrated and rude. Many people don't know when it's time to just take a break and it's not like we can all get together and go out for a beer at the end of the day and kiss and make up, so you end up stuck in your corners and more deeply entrenched every day.

Unions should be what their members want them to be. The BCTF has huge support from their membership. The "union bosses" of the BCTF are elected every year. The majority of teachers wanted to spend $5 million in union dues to campaign for public education. Those are the facts. You can whine about it all you want, but the BCTF will continue to be political because it is in the best interest of their members, and that is what they want from their union.

Best interest of their members? We'll see once the Liberals sit down for new contract talks. Not that I agree with it, but if I belonged to a group that had been attacked by another constantly, I wouldn't be inclined to be very nice during contract talks.

Thanks, SirJohnA, let's see if I can wrap my teensy little brain around this:

Organizations that represent the interests of workers (uh, I guess that means unions) aren't allowed to use political systems to achieve their goals. No, no, no--not fair! Not even when those interests are identified freely through internal political processes by freely elected leaders and even when those workers overwhelmingly agree that that is what they want to do.

Majority voting is OK for union folks to decide on strikes, benefits, spending of dues on strike pay and everything else, but no, no, no, it's not fair to decide through majority vote on anything that involves dealing with their public sector paymasters, who just happen to be controlled by--whaddya know!--political parties that respond only to political pressure!

I think I've got it now! Union leaders are supposed to be seen and not heard when it comes to standing up to the boss, especially when the boss is the BC Liberals! They must never say anything in public that could be construed as "political", even if it means watching their members' interests get stomped all over by everyone else who is using the political system to push their own competing interests. And if they don't obey these rules, they'll get Mr. Stewart's wife in big trouble, so they'd better cut it out!

But those rules are just for the union folks. Because they don't count when you're important people, like construction guys, or Chamber of Commerce guys, who are even more important, as everyone knows, because they wear ties instead of toolbelts. It's not at all the same when important business guys do exactly the same thing because they're different.

Geez, why did it take me so long to see that! You should write all this down and send it to the unions. Now that you've caught them being political, I'm sure they'll stop when they realize how unfair it is.

Ideas, folks, lets stop talking about how things suck and take some responsibility for how things
Are . Even Jim sees a bias, maybe I'll buy him a beer if he stops trying to bate everyone and get to some new ideas. The liberals lost the popular vote even with the media and big money. How do we fight from here. Focus ideas.

One of the intentions of corporate-controlled media is to instill in people a sense of disempowerment, of immobilization and paralysis. Its outcome is to turn you into good consumers. It is to keep people isolated, to feel that there is no possibility for social change." David Barsamian, The Daily Texan, June 25, 1998 m for positive change,

I have a question that seems pertinent. Do corporations check with their shareholders before making political donations?

"i have never said that unions are evil, in fact i support them on principle"

It's supporting them in practice that gets workers a fair shake at the bargaining table. Otherwise it's just a lot of hot air and posturing.

Two words: Saddam Hussein ... he was arrested on 13 December 2003 -- 15 days before the R.C.M.P. raids on the B.C. Legislature.

[B]Saddam Hussein comes to trial in two months ... why not Basi and Virk?

Are you suggesting we model our justice system to that of Iraq's?

Stump: With us or against us?

Stuart has a point re focussing on what people can do, instead of just on what's wrong:

We can all write and complain to the Sun, CBC, the Globe when we feel they've crossed the line in partisan bias. Complain to the press Council as well, as useless as it seems. They'll all deny, deny, but they do take note and at the end of the day, they do have to satisfy the public if they want to stay in business.

I don't know how useful a citizens' press council would be--it would almost certainly be hijacked by partisan interests and become a bickerfest unless it was very carefully designed.

We can write our MPs or the Senate committee that was studying this re concerns about the impact of concentrated media ownership in the BC market and elsewhere (not sure if the committee is still studying this).

Support alternative media like the Tyee--help get the word out to other potential readers that they do have a choice.

Press provincial representatives for reforms to restrict direct political financing to individual donations as a first step.

Get out and vote whenever you have a chance. I think it was something like close to 40% of eligible BC voters who did not vote in the recent elections.

We are not powerless as long as we can vote and as long as there is somewhere for concerned people to exchange ideas freely. Dissatisfied voters put the BC Liberals in office in 2001 and also booted many of them out last month. The last four years with no opposition to keep government on its toes was an aberration that is thankfully now behind us.

Jim said : "According to Black Press BC Bureau, in 2004 the BC Liberal Party collected $8.22 million in contributions plus with other fundraising and product sales, a total of $8.57 million"

Jim, if one wants to do a comparison of donations you have to look at the last 4 years since most of that money is only spent during the election season. The Liberals received around $26 million in donations over the full term.

jamez said : "There's not always information to report. If nothing new has been released, then there is nothing to report."

The comparison to the Clark "deck" shows that actual information being released is not required to to devote lots of print inches and radio time to discussing the issue and what MAY be involved, always adding the caveat that "Clark may not be guilty". Basi-Virk and Campbell's night in Hawaii did not generate any long-term focus by either print or radio, Saying there was nothing to discuss after the months and months spent on Clark's deck and all the posssible scenarios emanating from that seems a little naive or unbalanced.

There's plenty to discuss about Basi, Virk, Dosanjh ... like: how long is it allowable for the voting public to wait, when it's possible that they may be voting for crooks in the next election?

Where are Basi and Virk working these days?

Has crime within the Legislature been stopped?

Has criminal pressure affected any legislative business? Any part of the electoral process?

Like, oh yes: the voting public! Ask us how we feel about Basi & Virk & not knowing what the heck went on with those guys!

There's lots of editorial comment that could be made.

B.C. Citizens' Press Council, as I understand it, would focus on:

* identifying CanWest material which qualifies as Liberal propaganda not as news,

* seeking via the courts if necessary a decision on whether this propaganda is political advertising, with a $$-value,

* seeking to determine the $$-value as a CanWest political contribution,

* seeking to include the $$-value of CanWest propaganda in Liberal accounting of their own election campaign advertising,

* possibly to demonstrate how the amount and quality of CanWest's coverage favouring Liberals compares to the coverage of the NDP ...

* and then rank that comparison against the popular vote: Liberals 46% compared to the NDP 41% which, in itself, suggests that the two major parties really should have parity in a fair media.

So far as I know, there's no attempt to start a campaign to knock CanWest ...

sirjohna, That fact that your daughter has a school library with a fulltime librarian and assistant in it for her use sounds a bit mind-boggling for we Interior folk.

Up here in the Kamllops district librarians, like their assistants and their libraries are a relic of the past, tossed to the wolves, if you will, by local school boards who have seen their budgets shrunk, while private schools get more money in the past four years.

I'm sure you will come back and say 'well it was the school board that closed the libraries'.

That's true and since 2001 they have also cut meal programs that ensured the neediest of students had a nutritional meal before starting classes.

The latter program was hailed as a humanitarian and educational success story when it was launched.

Perhaps you live in one of those more wealthy areas where hunger is something you read about elsewhere.

For someone who claims to have been involved in district PACs for some 16 years, you express a lot of profound ignorance. Perhaps you ought to thank some of those teachers for offering your daughter the skills to rise above your level.

You whine about a teacher with a Masters degree getting $72,000 a year. A reporter for the Vancouver Sun gets that and more if he or she can get in some overtime.

It seems to me a teacher's job, at least from the employers point of view (taxpayers) has a bit more importance than the value Can/West puts on its reporters to do their job.

In fact, if you are an ethical reporter (and I don't think they are overpaid either), who wants to report rather than repeat, your boss probably thinks you are being paiid far too much.

Good thing they too have a good union.

What do you people think happens in a newsroom?
I'm just curious.

NORMAN SPECTOR "COMMERCIAL" : Having once written off Norman Spector as reactionary staunch right winger on certain issues, I have done an about face, and now count myself a fan, if not of him, a fan at least of his website, "Norman's Spectator".
His site is an excellent daily digest of news articles, columns, and op/ed pieces of note, not just from Canadian media, but also from US papers such as the Washington Post, and the NY and LA Times,plus UK papers,and sources worldwide. Spector must spend three quarters of his day pouring over news sources!
He digs up some fine pieces, and even writes a few worthwhile ones.
Today he surprised me by posting a link to a LA
Times op/ed piece by Naomi Klein, of all people, which argues that torture (eg. electroshock) continues in Iraq, as fairly standard practise, except the US is careful to contract it out now, so it can't so easily pinned on them as was Abu Graib.
He often posts an entertaining "Idiocy of the Day" winner. Frequent Idiocy winners are various Canwest National Post ranters, such as Andrew Coyne.This is fairly brave for Spector who has a column published in Canwest's Vancouver Sun!
He obviously reads the Tyee too, as his occasional comments on Tyee stories attests - most recently an anti-STV rant, which I completely disagree with him on, but he's entitled to his opinion!
Keep it rolling Norm!

you've still got it wrong name. i thought you said you had an education. or maybe it's just a bachelor's degree. jinny sims et al do not have the welfare of teachers as their main objective. that is bloody obvious if you follow the story closely. they are entrenched in a glennie clark style class-warfare struggle and the teachers provide a very tidy little sum of money for them to rock with. as for your vision of democracy, are you aware that only 23% of teachers voted in favour of joining the bcfed, and that there was to be an automatic vote in 3 years? wait for that one but don't hold your breath. these guys are master manipulators and most teachers are either too busy to get involved or they bleat their way blindly to the polling booth.
allan; try looking past the rhetoric. talk to some teachers who are not actively involved with the union.

Is that you Norman, taking on the nom de plume of Bobb999, giving yourself a little free plug?

I wonder if The Tyee feels a bit used by Norman Spector, having given him an Internet platform, then stealing away to create one of his own. Did he sign a "no compete" contract with The Tyee, I wonder?

Just joking (sort of).

jamez, depends who in the news we're talking about, but like any other company I imagine the talk is how to sell newspapers. Which Can-West of course seems to be inept at. But the advertisers don't seem to mind.

Yet, unlike many other companies, ideology seems to determine who gets hired and promoted.

I see the guy in charge of hiring as a sort of, "So you're the premier's brother? Hired" or "You're from the Fraser Institute? You can be an editor"

Bob999, I agree, Spectator is handy.

Responses to various conversations taking place and arising within this thread -- although some also common comments since the election.

1. The corporate media bias towards the BC Liberals is blatant and longstanding. There is no justification for supporting corporate media by subscription. And turn off your television and get a life without the endless corporate commercial which is tv and American pop culture. There is no need to submit yourself to Friends or Tony Parsons. There are healthier ways to waste time, and both tv and newspapers actually seem counter-productive to informing yourself.

My own boycott of corporate media is old news, and what concerns me more is why news media like the CBC have become so Republican and corporate capitalist. The CBC's campaign in support of the illegal war on Iraq was the worst of the propagandizing which has become a distinguishing feature of our "national" media (a secondary characteristic being a Rex Murphy-style hysteria especially over terrorism and viruses). Also remember the supposed public debate on the Olympic bid? While CBC Vancouver did finally report on the BC CCPA analysis of the Olympic bid, it was long after CBC radio had become an endless ad for this spectacular waste. I have little respect left for the CBC who given their post-9/11 record are more likely to kill Canada by supporting deep integration/US annexation, than they are to hold it together as a sovereign nation.

2. If in any previous premier had been caught drinking and driving, with his romantic interest/not-wife in the passenger seat, I really doubt that premier could have survived in office. Imagine if Glen Clark had actually done something wrong? Littered for example.... Rather than holding Gordo accountable, the media decided it was bad taste to remind voters our premier is completely irresponsible. When his mug shot started appearing courtesy of people with a memory in his riding, it became apparent this would be used by the BC Liberal corporate media as a slam against the NDP rather than recognition of historical reality and Gordo's drinking problem.

3. How democratically spirited or well-informed is this endless complaint that Greens lost the election for the NDP? Is this an example of BC NDP coalition building skills? The NDP didn't even imagine winning! Where are thanks to the 3% of 2001 Green voters who seem likely to have supported the NDP in 2005? Why do such complainers never address the fact McPhail turned down a co-operation offer and that some NDP and Green citizens organized their own vote exchange because efforts to organize such in the previous four years fell flat with the NDP party? Further why can't such NDP supporters recognize the actual failings of the NDP during the 90s, which were not "economic," but the neoliberal, poor-bashing, unsustainable development bent which alienated the progressive "fringe" supporters? Why should Greens have supported the NDP when the 2005 NDP platform marginalized environmental issues?

I'd like to see James spend less time charming the Chambers of Commerce and more time defending the environment, education, kids, the poor and working people. While I know a different party is being built than the one fascinated by Clark's machismo, the NDP still has work to do to rebuild in terms trust and integrity. In this regard Jenny Kwan and Joy McPhail deserve much credit for building support by way of their track record as the unofficial official opposition in a dictatorship. Still the more middle-of-the-road the NDP claims to be, the less likely I will trust the party and support it. Carol Taylor, Wally Oppal, Glen Clark, Ujal Dosanjh, Larry Campbell --- which one is NDP and which one is Liberal? And during which month of what year? How do you tell these uninspired brainless smug self-promoting pro-corporate capitalist opportunists apart?

While I voted NDP and not Green, it was a strategic act of support involving holding my nose to some strong neoliberal stenches left by Clark, Dosanjh and even Mike Harcourt. I similarly plugged my nose and voted "Yes" for STV -- I am delighted it lost as the system is crap as was the process that went into selecting it for us citizens, but we have to find a PR system for BC because our Legislative Assembly is not democratic.

4. I hope the Tyee can evolve as non-partisan, independent and critical, rather than boringly partisan NDP (leave that to rabble.ca). I further hope these discussions will not be spammed out of existence by rightist yahoos not in the least interested in public dialogue, but rather attempting to close down any and all criticism of the status quo. I would love to see NDP, Green, progressive Conservative, and even (non-Progressive/reactionary) Conservative and Liberal supporters, etc., having a discussion here -- but it hurts to see Tyee discussion disintegrate to the level of our current Parliament.

Very good points, yarrow. It would be interesting to find out who really runs the NDP from behind the scenes and makes these policy decisions ? E.g. This "move to the centre". Whatever that means. The Democratic Party USA is the best example of what happens when a political Party jumps on the bandwagon of exploitation and crime as a "patriotic duty and economic necessity". I wonder, how long it will take our politicians to discover that it is not business and so called "investment" that makes an economy, but resources and people and then stop licking the boots of some of the worst thieves.
Canada and BC never needed a penny of foreign investment, because it is nothing but money created from the air against and to control our resources and take out the benefits. The biggest racket in history, yet our political Parties are swooning for more. Ed Deak, Big Lake.

Oooooh! Now besides my "blather" and my teensy brain, I'm uneducated, SirJ? Ouch! I take it you've really run out of things to say!

OK, you win! I disagree with you, therefore I must be wrong. Now give it a rest before you burst a blood vessel or soemthing. Go tell your lads that Name says to keep bashing the teachers and other unions anytime they have the temerity to speak up on issues that concern parents, students, seniors and other lowly citizens. It's been a very effective strategy so far and we all want more of it!

I agree Bob999, I miss Spector. I didn't always agree with him but he's intelligent and thoughtful.

Sunny, I believe he's had his own site for some time.

Yarrow - that has to be one of the most inspiring posts I have ever seen on Tyee - you captured the issue perfectly.

Name
Do not try to understand them just as they cannot understand you, for they are a breed apart. It hurts me to see you waste your energy trying to argue with these people. You have the same chance of reasoning with them as the legions of caligula did fighting the waves of the sea.
Excellent idea above BC Mary! canwest goebbel (thats brilliant!) should be charged with advertising for the liberals. How can any objective, unbiased regulatory body claim that what took place over the last 4 years, especially near the election, be classified as anything else. And what hypocrisy for the bc liberals and elections bc to penalize the Western Wilderness Committee for their "biased" pre-election newsletter.

If we are to preserve free speech, which I see as fundamental, we can't stop the Western Canada Wilderness Committee, the BCTF, or CanWest Goebbel (yes, it's a good one!) from shilling for whoever they want, or from bringing to public attention the issues they are concerned about. That's the problem with trying to stop third party ads or lobbying, as we'll all realize the day we have a burning issue that we want to speak up about.

But clearly, this issue raises concerns for people on all sides of the political spectrum, so we need to look at ways to ensure that the public gets to hear all the different views, not just those backed by the most money or those held by the people who control public access points to information.

It could be argued that the unions and environmental groups would not have had to spend millions drawing public attention to the Liberals' record if our MSM had been doing their job; David Schreck would not have been battling Elections BC to get the NDP message out on his Website if CanWest Goebbel had given them the same space it gave the Liberals;...and the fringe parties would not have been hopping up and down for being excluded from the televised leaders' debate.

Regulations designed to prevent media market monopolies (as exist in the U.S.) might be a start, as genuine competition should promote a greater diversity of views. But several commentators have noted that as "corporate" media become more and more part of mainstream big business, news organizations like CTV/The Globe become increasingly indistinguishable from CanWest.

Publicly-owned CBC should be the exception, and they still do some very good stuff, especially in their documentary programs (The Passionate Eye has aired some topnotch stuff on Iraq and terrorism, such as that recent BBC documentary on "The Power of Nightmares", and The National was talking about the fictitious WMD long before the U.S. media started opening their mouths. But as government cuts force the CBC to compete increasingly in the free market, it's inevitable that they too will sound more and more like all the rest.

I think the Internet offers the most promise right now for levelling the playing field--the rise of groups like Moveon.org, political bloggers, and The Tyee reflect a growing audience that's alienated by the pap served up by MSM fixated on Michael Jackson et al.

The big advantage is that the Internet allows new players to enter the game and provide access for a relatively small investment, which was the big barrier with traditional print and broadcast media. And as we saw in the recent elections--stories that break on the Web will shape the news agenda at the MSM.

So I am optimistic.

name; now you've sufficiently bored me to move on. well done.

sirjohna: Thank you!

Hey Frank.

"I see the guy in charge of hiring as a sort of, "So you're the premier's brother? Hired" or "You're from the Fraser Institute? You can be an editor""
It doesn't work that way. In a Canwest newsroom like the Sun or Province, all hirings go through HR. And they go on a typical points basis... does he have a degree etc....

I also don't think people realize just how left wing many journalists are. The Sun is full of big union supporters.

"I also don't think people realize just how left wing many journalists are. The Sun is full of big union supporters."

True of more than one newsroom in this city. Thans for pointing it out to the conspiracy theorists, but I doubt you'll do much to change their minds.

ROBBINS Sce Research (1998)

At ROBBINS we are extremely proud of Professor Gutstein. His writing is clear, his case is well made, and he articulates well the very serious problem of gross media bias we have in this province and indeed in the country. These messages are crafted at the epicentre of power in the newsroom, and the journalists really have little control over the 'final cut'. BC politics looks a little like third rate dinner theatre in the United States with "B" and "C" grade actors all willing to be paid a pittance and to perform their "panderschtick" in return for the Warholian journey of community fame. The problem of media bias in BC politics is as serious as a heart attack.

When ROBBINS deals with parties outside of the province and the country, we can assure you that these aforementioned media organizations have not a shred of credibility with some very serious people who have a major influence on our economy. They have near dominance of our airwaves however. We have been criticized by some for our polling, but I can assure you if the mainstream press knew who was approaching us to poll they would think seriously about separation from specific political party support. Our media here in B.C. and Canada (and don't laugh because its closer to the truth than you might imagine), is similar to that in former Communist regimes including the former Soviet Union (although I don't know how much it is improved there to date under Putin). Journalists don't want to lose their jobs, so the go along to get along.

We are in dangerous waters because rather than become enraged and engaged, the public has developed what we at ROBBINS call "submissive apathy". This simply means that they have accepted the situation as generally corrupt, but also accept here isn't a damn thing they can do about it.

We have been approached by one group outside Canada about an on-line newspaper for Canada as recently as this week.

All of us at ROBBINS enjoy Mr. Gutsteins fearless portrayal of reality in BC politics.

jamez,
You wrote:

"I also don't think people realize just how left wing many journalists are. The Sun is full of big union supporters."

They still have the human needs to put bread on the table, keep up the car payments and pay the mortgage.

A chill exists that results in much self-censorship. I doubt that all who write for the print media are pro-gambling. When did you last see a related article that wasn't a puff piece or neutral on the industry?

I must dig it out. A magazine clipping quotes an auto writer saying that blowing the whistle resulted in his editor being "got at" and the
writer being terminated. (as in, fired)

These are just two areas where the public is really ill-served by the media. Another is in its unquestioning acceptance of real estate transactions. An industry so venal as to make home ownership an impossible dream for many.

See what I mean Name. Theres no room with these guys for well reasoned, logical arguments as they seem incapable or unwilling to deviate from their established beliefs, however narrow or unfounded.

You hit a good point re real estate coverage, Skeptikool.

Why isn't anyone writing about the same builders who gave us the leaky condos and then closed shop when all hell broke loose, only to reinvent themselves as builders of the new concrete towers that are starting to show some of the same devastating structural flaws?

Could it be that CanWest and co are too reliant on the millions they make in real estate advertising to touch this?

And why are the regulators sitting on their hands once again? Could it be that the boys in Victoria and at City Hall are too reliant on the millions in political funding they get from the big developers and builders?

Narrow or Unfoudned? Hey buddy I work in the media, I have way more knowledge of this than you do.
Do any of you know how Strong the unions are at these papers? ANy clue?
No one gets fired from the SUn because they don't tow the line. The union would be all over it if they did.
And please jester, your comment is the most hypocritical thing I've ever read "Theres no room with these guys for well reasoned, logical arguments as they seem incapable or unwilling to deviate from their established beliefs" I take into account everything said here.. and I mean that.
Unlike yourself who seems to bullhead to stray for a second from your cause and engage in any discussion that disagrees with you.
I feel I've also been very polite with those I disagree with here and respected their view.
The funniest thing is I consider myself left of centre, but disagree on these points... but because I don't engage in mob discussion I'm branded.
Ha

Yarrow said:
"My own boycott of corporate media is old news, and what concerns me more is why news media like the CBC have become so Republican and corporate capitalist. The CBC's campaign in support of the illegal war on Iraq was the worst of the propagandizing which has become a distinguishing feature of our "national" media (a secondary characteristic being a Rex Murphy-style hysteria especially over terrorism and viruses). Also remember the supposed public debate on the Olympic bid? While CBC Vancouver did finally report on the BC CCPA analysis of the Olympic bid, it was long after CBC radio had become an endless ad for this spectacular waste. I have little respect left for the CBC who given their post-9/11 record are more likely to kill Canada by supporting deep integration/US annexation, than they are to hold it together as a sovereign nation."

You've nailed my concerns on the head Yarrow! Although Canada has always been fending off U.S. takeover initiatives, never before has the assault been so unrelenting, and so widespread, and sadly, so aided by our own elected leaders.

Far beyond mere corporate ownership, beyond unfettered access to our energy supplies that puts U.S. rights of supply ahead of Canadians, U.S. interests are now running our government program administrations and shackling us to their legal system. I could go on, but, once again, I only have a few minutes to post my thoughts.

One last thought that's been reeling around my brain for the last few days: maybe this whole Grewal Tape Fiasco will be the tipping point to haul ordinary Canadians out of their terpor and start taking to the streets for a new system of governance, federally and provincially. Maybe people will start to think they're being used and shout "Enough of this corrupt party crap".

I've been involved in riding level politics with the Liberals (federally and provincially), the Conservatives and the NDP (provincially) as well as with the Greens. (Just searchin' for good government.) Unfortunately, I saw many examples of this kind of hard-ball, sleazy behaviour (isn't it illegal to tape record someone without their knowledge in Canada?) horse-trading, goodies going to friends of friends, etc. with all of them except the Greens, and that's because my involvement there was very minimal and related to their Proportional Representation campaign.

The Conservatives were the dirtiest and the Liberals the slickest. The NDP (only have experience with BC NDP) came off a little better; their "problem" was mostly just the inertia injected into the party by a few stuck-in-time ideologues who didn't want to share their (tiny) power bases. But the Liberals and Conservatives, man oh man, I ran as fast as I could to distance myself after seeing a bit of their insides. I know of other people who've done the same. These party organizations are no place for ordinary citizens.

So, grow Grewal tape scandal, grow! Help us bring on a new system of government. If we don't, in 50 years Canada will be but a fond memory. Your kids' kids will probably be fighting on the front lines along with all the poor (literally) US kids who act as fodder for the folly. That's when the wars will be about who gets the last of the water, the best air filtered pods to live in and so on. (More study needed! Hogwash.)

Sunny

Robbins

"BC politics looks a little like third rate dinner theatre in the United States with "B" and "C" grade actors all willing to be paid a pittance and to perform their "panderschtick" in return for the Warholian journey of community fame."

a bit insulting all of the people working for poor money but doing their best to get you information in a fair way.
And don't say they aren't out there because they are...

"a bit insulting all of the people working for poor money but doing their best to get you information in a fair way."

Like you jamez, I too work in the news biz. OK, it is tv, but hey, we do our best. So nice to be criticized by people who think because they've given up reading/watching/listening the very thing they comment on that it gives them an inside line on the truth isn't it?

You don't like the media. Start your own. Write a piece on spec. Write a ltr to the editor, but fergawdsakes people quit bitching that the waaaahhmbulance isn't coming just because your preconceived notions aren't borne out by the people who actually try to inform you. Lead, follow or get out of the way wankers.

Someone claimed here that the CBC is right wing, ha! Now that’s funny, It is so left wing, except when it’s licking Federal Liberal boots.

So many insightful comments!

Yarrow, I love your name. A staunch ally. Just what we need to stop the hemorrhaging of our sovereignty and way of life! :)

I hope The Tyee evolves into a progressive magazine that also includes issues related to the American progressive movement which are pertinent to Canada, rather than so called bipartisan. There is nothing wrong with being a stated progressive magazine. Although, neo-cons pretend there is, as they use that in an attempt to shut progressive voices down, while taking advantage of the 'right wing echo machine'.

I don't know what I'd do if I couldn't listen to progressive radio at KGO810am San Fran - M-F 10 to 5am and Kiro710 9-1am - all week. I am so turned off by our media, I'd probably tune out all together. And, like others here, I am becoming disappointed in the CBC as they acquiesce to political pressure.

About the Greens, if they came to the NDP and wanted one riding, I could see the NDP agreeing, however they seem to feel they are on an equal foot witht the NDP with 10% of the vote. Possibly because of their artifical status inflated by the media. From what I can tell, they are not truly progressive, but Libertarian. Their former reputation attracts a 'left' vote, but from what I can tell, they aren't.

I too would like a traditionally left-leaning party rather than a moderate one and if I saw the NDP become the 'third way' of Blair's Labour as so many are saying they need to become, I would not vote for them at all.

Stump:
I work in radio, but have worked in print. And the funniest thing when I hear the conspiracy theory is when I worekd for Black Press I wrote so many left leaning editorials, and never heard a word from head office about it. But I'm sure many here would say there is some big conspiracy at cariboo. Yeah, a conspircay to starve 20 something writers to death.
People just get ticked because THEIR cause isn't being championed, never mind if it's truly balanced.
IT is the fault of society if they aren't happy with their media... not the fault of reporters.

Now that I've admitted I work in media I guess I'll have to start proof-reading my posts... or face a barrage of jabs.... damn!

KGO810am San Fran
owned by ABC

Kiro710 Seattle
owned by Entercom Communications

hardly David taking on Goliath.

'nuff said I hope.

STUMP: Also,

How many times have you had people come in from both sides bitching about how you are biased on THE SAME STORY.

Makes me laugh.

artificial. sigh.

Sunny, unfortunately, I don't think it will be 50 years. More like 5.

I don't think journalists should be so easily or so completely let off the hook for the part they are now playing in a largely sold out and complicit media.

In any other profession, in any job, you also have to put bread on the table, pay mortgage payments, and keep up car payments.

Everyone at some point makes a choice as to how far you will participate in something that betrays your principles. Journalists should not be excused nor be free from this kind of scrutiny.

In fact, many news stories investigated by journalists are about complicity ...they would be the first to expose a doctor who was a contributing factor in a health scandal, a scientist who betrays his values by working in the interests of the big pharmaceuticals, a politician who works against the interests of his own constituents in order to continue to receive special interest donations to his election campaign.

Why don't they investigate journalists who are big union supporters who continue to work for a news company that day after day unrelentingly tries to decimate the union movement and the workers of this province by how they cover and present their so-called version of the news?

Complicity is all about what you are willing to sell out for in order to make the mortgage payments, bring home the bacon, or turn a profit. It is part of all of us...largely why we are in this mess.

There is no doubt that it happens everywhere and to many different degrees and eventually everyone has to decide if you are going to continue to participate in being part of the problem or fix it.

Journalists now bear their share of the responsibility in the part they are presently playing in facilitating the corporate media in its relentless betrayal of the people of this province and this country... in order to sell OUR home and all of its assets to THEIR friends in high places.

I don't think a genuinely free press or a genuinely free society is a possibility but if we want even a measure of a free society, then we depend upon a measure of a free press to uphold that...that has the courage to uphold that.

How do we ever change this if the car payment always wins?

Stump, Note the time slots of those shows. When Disney etal start putting progressive radio on during the day and all over the market place, I'll reconsider your argument.

Jamez, I gave up copy editing long ago. There isn't enough band width to correct all my errors. Most people here recognize attacking a person's spelling etc isn't a valid argument and none of us are immune.

Timing is everything. After the election we hear stories such as the empty hospital capacities etc. Before? Days of a phony strike vote by the teachers. To think that Canwest etal aren't hugely biased is to be in denial. I don't think I've ever seen such an incestuous media and in the pocket of Big Business. Why was the story on Campbell's jailmate killed by the Sun? Come on. An editorial slant is not unusual. It becomes a problem when stories are lied about, slanted to include the editorial bias and not reported at all because of the bias and when the media is so concentrated that other voices are silenced.

Jamez, so you think that the "attacks" by the unions specifically the BCTF is all one sided? Campbell and puppets did nothing to bring it on? HAHAHAHAHAAA!!!! You're funny ,buddy, better give up the "newsroom" job and get you're self into something where that humorous talent is put to better use...I think that between the two sides the gov't is going to have the harder time holding its head up....An interesting, telling comment about the union at P Press I had kind of a nagging question for a while now on why those editors seemed to have such a "hate on" for unions...so the protect the jack asses at any cost, money driven capitolist corperation doesn't like seeing the workers with the same attributes, another laugh, thanks...it also explains why they think that after all the crap the Liberals have pulled they should still get another kick at the can...not done but gotta go...

"Why don't they investigate journalists who are big union supporters who continue to work for a news company that day after day unrelentingly tries to decimate the union movement and the workers of this province by how they cover and present their so-called version of the news?"

Maybe we're trying to change things from within. It's going to take a while. It's hard enough getting the arched eyebrow from your co-workers for being the resident greeny without getting hacked by armchair editors with grandiose conspiracy theories. Only a child expects instant results. Thanks for your support. Not.

"Blonde" Pitbull
"Jamez, so you think that the "attacks" by the unions specifically the BCTF is all one sided?"

Didn't realize I said that.
Let's see you sit there bashing the media for twisting things. Then you put a bunch of words into my mouth effectivly doing the same thing. Now THAT'S a laugh.
I guess since you stopped reading the newspapers your attention span and ability to understand things has floated away.
Re-read my posts and tell me where I said the Campbell government didn't bring any of this on themselves.

Hey REd riv

THings like timing of stories I will raise my eyebrows at, however I also look at many other stories that are constantly broken. Man yof them making the libs look bad. I would like to get more familiar with the one you mentioned though.

I apologize if it sounds like we were degrading the working journalist. That isn't the case. Ask any reporter or journalist other than the better known how much they get paid annually. It isn't as much as you might think. Talk to some of these individuals outside of their job focus, and you will find that they are very bright, hard working people who know the score. I spoke at length with a BCTV reporter who has been around for years, and this dude could turn you inside out with what he knew. The guy was brilliant. But his job isn't to be brilliant. His job isn't to be a surgical investigative reporter. He is being paid to report the news generally, and the producers et al decide how it is portrayed.

I'll wager that if you took one half of the working journalists right now, doubled their pay and benefits and said dig under every rock you can find and tell me about politics in BC, the lid would blow off in under six months. We would essentially start again and have some high grade top of the line journalism taking place. Tell the academics to take a break from ratifying obsolete intelligence and let these folks do the job. You will see readership, viewing and listening audiences double and triple. Give me an advertising crew and radio time, and I guarantee you I would blow the doors off anyone, I mean anyone on radio or television today. By the same measure take the leash off Smyth and some others, and you will get back the readers, the viewers, etc. that have left.

Ask your friends if they follow political news.
Most of them will say "NO". People are too hungry for real action, I don't mean cheap tabloid journalism (well maybe just a little during ratings periods), I mean honest to goodness dig out the truth for the people.

Once again Mr. Gutstein's article captured the essence of the last provincial election. People we talk to just shrug as if the bus they were waiting to catch just sped on by and did not stop to pick them up.

Stump, just because it's a news company doesn't let it or those who work for it off the hook..its still a company...and a lot of them have become companies of treasonous intent...all I'm saying is that reporters are not beyond reproach...

How do you change a company like Can-West from within?

RObbins:

"I'll wager that if you took one half of the working journalists right now, doubled their pay and benefits and said dig under every rock you can find and tell me about politics in BC,"

The problem isn't laziness, any reporter working at a community paper would kill for the chance to expose any major politcal fraud.
The problem is
A; Many people in the public just don't care.

When I was making no money I still did my best to dig up anything I could, and I got a couple haymakers out of it. Much of the problem lies in publishers not wanting long investigative pieces because they take too much manpower and don't fill enough space. They'd rather their staff spend time doing a bunch of quickly and easily written articles to fill that space ASAP.
Which should leave the staff at big dailies to be investigative... and I hear the problem there is laziness THERE.
A bunch of academics coasting on their credentials instead of on being go getters.

Also, for perspective on what Robbins said about pay. The average reporter in the interior of BC at a small paper makes about $1700 a month plus car allowance. For many this is the pay after going to college to get there.
I don't know that many people that would make such crappy money to lie to someone.

Respectfully Lynn, I disagree. If the principled quit, imagine the cesspool that would be left behind.

I'm sure there are many fine hardworking journalists and I'm sure if you doubled anyone's pay and benefits in any job the results would be quite amazing. That's not the point...the present corporate media is the biggest threat to our freedom. They have become about the dissemination of misinformation in the interests of those they serve... on the grandest of scales...historically unprecedented.

They should not be propped up in any way by the public, by real journalists. They should be brought down. It should be a refusal by all of us to participate in their lies.

I'm sure Stump is probably one of those fine journalists, even though he is not very happy with me right now.

Jamez, your comment of 21hrs ago "Best interests of their members? We'll see when the Liberals sit down for new contract talks. Not that I agree with it, but if I belonged to a group that had been attacked by another constantly, I wouldn't be inclined to be very nice at contract talks."
Your first two sentences seem to imply, to me, that the union shouldn't have/be standing up for what the majority of its members feel/want. That the Liberals aren't going to be "nice" (please tell me when they have been to a union?). Your next statement is ,to me, rather ambigious at the time of my previous post I was assuming that you were still on a "dominate Liberal" thought line so that union by its efforts had provoked the Liberals, not so much that it had been two sided.
Bashing the media? Hhmmmm, well I can't say I'm your staunchest of supporter lately, but I read the Province daily (and watch Global) it still gets delivered to my door every morning and at work I'll read any paper that is lying around on my breaks....I guess the way I just left that comment to go this way is the floating part of my thought processs that you don't like.... either that or you were making a crack that I've smoked too much pot in my life. Can't deny it, that I've smoked enough but I can still play with you. If I offended you with the comments about you being funny, my apologies, but I do find your posts amusing but I do have an abstract sense of humour... Anyway, I don't do personal insults, often, I perfer to have more civilized debates even with people who don't share my veiws. So saying that, try not taking so many shots at me personally and you'll find this out on your own...Are you saying I should go for the bleach blonde look? I thought I'd enjoy my last few years of natural blonde before the grays move in but hey, gotta be open to constructive critisism....

Jamez, mainstream media does spin, omit, time and use other techniques....BUT I do get alot of the info that I subsquently investigate from them so they are still bareable...I guess that the beef that I have is that too many of the population take the myoptic veiwed reports at face value without much direction from its source on doing more on seeing a broader veiw. Totally, medias' fault? NO! but they are not free of blame either....

Well Blonde I felt you insulted me without provacation first, especially recommending I leave the business.
Anyway...With regard to the quote of mine.. I was only making a point that the BCTF has probably hurt their chances... I never said if what they did was right or wrong.
What I find funny though is how the Right Wing claims bias as much as the left wing. I can't take either side seriously anymore.

I think you have to distinguish between reporters and editors who are often (not all)doing their best within the framework in which they find themselves, and, on the other side, the managers and senior editors who assign the stories (or not!); who choose which stories go on Page 1 above the fold with a screaming headline and which ones go on Page D27 or get held back for three weeks; and who also decide whether reporters have to churn out two stories a day (leaving little room to do more than dressing up press releases), vs. getting two weeks and a solid FOI/research budget to really get at the heart of an issue.

My distaste for the final overall CanWest products does not detract from my respect for some of their very good reporters and columnists and the individual work that they do.

NAME: I'd love to see a group of journalist set up a paper that is accountable to a body of journalists known for integrity. ALmost like a co-op to ensure fair reporting. Or we could become like Britain and just have left and right wing papers.

I don't blame the journalists, I blame the conditions in which they work. Any worker does not put himself in harms way, career wise if he/she loves their work. Its like a self censorship, we all know many examples of journalists who have said the wrong thing at the wrong time.

For example- Can one be critical of Israel without being labeled anti-Semitic?

Whoever controls the public mind via , media,. public relations and advertising does not need a large military to protect elitist interest but has control of the public by imprisoning them in their own mind. If people do not have any context for information they cannot put together rational facts. SO basically we have a real issue when we know the media does not have the public good in mind but only market interest in mind. Any info or news that puts forth a socially progressive idea or system will be crushed to advance the Neo Liberal agenda, hence France and the Dutch voting down the new European constitution. This was a huge victory for the left and the anti globalization crowd but of course no context as to what the vote means.

We must find ways to demand we get more public fee air time, lets lobby regulators or MLA's , CRTC etc to get free public air and TV time, we paid for the lines that these huge corporations have hijacked to enrich themselves.

Public or community organizations to watch the media, media watch dogs etc.

Use the courts , take the Vancouver Sun to court, file a claim regarding untrue statements etc, sue them for libel. Slander , whatever. If must be illegal to donate money to political parties. (can someone build a case of conflict of interest etc)

New ideas folks, we know what the media is and how important it is that we take it back.

Good posts jamez

Both the UK , France and Germany have major dailes that are left wing, they are funded by big labour, I don't know why Canadian labour is so far behind on this.

Okay, Jamez, I apologize for telling you to leave your chosen career, I just don't see humour as being used much in newspapers unless you count the funnies.
The BCTF have hurt THEIR chances? Yeah, okay it could be seen that way. Personally I don't think so. I think the Liberals had better listen up and grow up, they behave like selfish, spoiled kids and the voters have clearly given them a "time out".
Right wing, left wing, if you don't, as a politician, have the intelligence and abilities to work for all the people not just those with your ideologies, you don't deserve another term. I, too, don't take the propaganda from either side too seriously, but I find it sad not funny....

Stuart:

"we paid for the lines that these huge corporations have hijacked to enrich themselves." Very true, there needs to be easier public access to mass communication like radio or TV>.. sure alot of nuts would get on, but some good ones would as well.

I'll tell ya too, if there was a good journalist run paper, every reporter in the province would flock to write for it, especially if the pay was decent.

So, Jamez, what do you think about those new "freeby" papers think any thing will become of them?

I know I'm in a minority of one on this viewpoint but journalists do have a responsibility in what they participate in, as do all of us...and I am not saying they play a major part... owners, managers and senior editors fulfill that role... and in no way am I saying there are not many talented and fine journalists around... there are... but they are responsible nonetheless for the part they play in corporate media's pervasive influence.

It is just not true that "no worker puts themselves in harms way, careerwise, if he/she loves their work." I know a number of people in my life that have done just that... teachers, nurses, loggers... that have spoken out and not self-censored...some have paid the price for that...usually strange as it may seem life rewards them in one way or another...sooner or later.

The foot soldiers may not be responsible for what the generals plan.... they basically carry out orders ...but sometimes they see that by carrying out the orders they are playing their own part in furthering an unjust war... realizing that it is a war they don't want to help the generals win...

As I said earlier, Gutstein is way out in his self-described “conspiracy theory” about the media’s role in re-electing Campbell’s Liberals. Crude boosterism doesn’t win elections. Never has, never will. CanWest et al. get far too much credit from Gutstein, who is inhaling his own vapours and encouraging the Aspers to follow suit. And many posters here have risen to the bait with their own non sequitors and gravity-defying leaps of logic.
It’s unfair, but always, “it’s the economy, stupid,” as Bill Clinton’s handlers once sloganeered. It’s unfair because the government’s influence on the economy is always overstated. Yes, the government often picks winners (the armaments industry, aerospace, etc.) but aside from creating jobs for that particular segment (whose votes in some cases can, admittedly, be considerable) since when has this government interference led to a sustainable booming economy?
It’s the self-made entrepreneurs who create economic booms, whether it be the developers of dot.com and hi-tech industries or the craftspersons who build homes and its accoutrements. These people succeed in spite of the government, not because of it — and, yes, they go bust too as the exigencies of the marketplace take their toll.
Yet, when it comes time to vote, most people look at the current economic conditions first (with the one exception being that if there’s a war on, the sitting government is pretty well impossible to beat, i.e. Bush Jr. and Tony Blair, but once the war’s over and the economy is in a shambles the sitting government is inevitably toppled by the popular vote, i.e. Bush Sr. and Churchill — Roosevelt died in April ‘45 during his third term of office, and Mackenzie King was a weird exception to this rule, possibly because of his steadfast opposition to conscription).
It’s a maxim: If the economy is rocking and rolling, the government is pretty secure about its re-election prospects. If not, they’re toast. Since economic swings come and go on a regular basis, beyond all control of any government, so do governments. And average people, bless their souls, like to see a change at the top after a term or two.
Personal peccadillos or character faults, such as Glen Clark’s patio, Gordon Campbell’s DUI, Clinton’s skirt-chasing, Blair’s shallow grasping, Bush’s incoherence, and Chretien’s arrogance etc. are of secondary consideration. On the other hand, criminal activity such as Dave Stupich’s court conviction on the Nanaimo bingo larceny or the theft allegations contained in the ongoing Gomery Inquiry, do play a bigger role in how voters arrive at their choices.
To get back to Gutstein’s theories (which are partisan boosterism, not unbiased journalism) — and I’m no fan of, or apologist for, CanWest — he cites a special business section produced by The Sun as partisan politicking by CanWest that helped the Liberals win re-election. That’s really weak logic, and patently unfair criticism of their journalists (who, by the way, don’t write the ad copy Gutstein mentions in his critique, but then Gutstein is a “media expert” in academia with no newsroom experience). Certainly, the headlines Gutstein cites are standard Chamber of Commerce type bumph typical of such special sections, but he offers no evidence that the journalists involved wrote a single untrue word contained in the copy. It’s true: Business in B.C. is on an up cycle, and home sales are booming to the benefit of those who own homes whether they’re right- or left-wingers or none of the above. And like many others before him — including Clark in ‘96 — Campbell had the grace of the right economic stars shining on him in an election year.
As for the health care story he says was “buried” it’s no different from the litany of bad-news health care stories that have been in the news for as long as I can remember. The timing of the release might have suited the BCNU’s purposes, but I think people, especially those directly affected by surgical delays and bed closures, had already made their minds up as to whether things were going to be any different after the election.
Gutstein also does a disservice to his colleagues in the BCTF, who did very well by their $5 million investment in this election campaign (compared to the $3 million spent by the NDP itself). Former BCTF prez Chudnovsky got elected as MLA, among other teachers, and there is now a sizable NDP representation as Opposition, which fairly reflects their share of the popular vote. A popular vote of 43% which, by the way, is larger than their popular vote in any election in which the NDP won power in B.C. While it was amusing to see the BCTF hoist by its own petard, regarding the errant “strike vote” missive from the Mission local, I fail to see how it hurt their share of the vote. And hey, politics is a cruel sport, get used to it.
The only part in which Gutstein comes close to getting it right is in his conclusion that: “Perhaps it’s an unsupportable ‘conspiracy theory’ to claim that a diverse news organization like CanWest can have a single campaign strategy.” Although I will allow that, “...it’s also obvious that CanWest wanted a BC Liberal victory,” if he means to say that’s what the Aspers and their senior management wanted.
But I’m waiting for him to provide a single example of a publication which has directly affected the outcome of an election as per the desire of the publication’s owners and directors.
The Guardian didn’t do that in Britain last month, as Labour dropped over five per cent to 35% popular vote, despite the Grauniad’s support. And the British Conservatives were mired at a stagnant 32%, despite the support of the two biggest, leading dailies, The Sun and The Daily Mail. The New York Times also failed last November, and since the U.S. election its owners and staff have been conducting some public soul-searching about how they had failed to reach a significant portion of their readership, indeed, had even alienated readers who were offended by the simplistic and offensive lowballs tossed by some of their columnists during the campaign.
In conclusion, Gutstein gets an F for his report, unfounded accusations and poor research. Go to the back of the class, Professor.

sirjohna:

Way to spin yet again. The reason that so few teachers bothered to vote on joining the BCFED or not was because the vast majority of teachers were so FOR it. After a day of teaching, the last thing a teacher wants to do is go to the polling booth to vote "yes" for something that they know will happen. If there were indeed a lot of teachers against the idea, you better believe that it would have been voted down. Teachers wanted to join the BCFED, and nothing you say (or spin) will make any difference to that fact.

Good points, Kurt, though I don't necessarily agree with your conclusions.

No one can state with certainty exactly which factors contributed to what extent in helping to re-elect Mr. Campbell. But I don't have any doubts that CanWest's leadership went all out in TRYING to help re-elect him and I think that's a valid point made in Gutstein's report.

I know people who read the Sun and who were convinced that Mr. Campbell & co were primarily responsible for B.C.'s economy being "back on track." We know that propaganda and advertising work--otherwise people would not spend billions on it every year. Many people consume news superficially or selectively and will believe propaganda that is plainly untrue--like the majority of Americans who believed that Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attacks.

So I do think Gutstein is safe in concluding that CanWest's lopsided coverage must have had some effect--just as we can conclude that third party campaigns must have made some impact, somewhere--though how much I don't think anyone can really say. Who knows, perhaps CanWest's patently phony BCTF strike story might even have backfired and turned off some potential Liberal supporters.

Kurt, you say Gutstein "offers no evidence that the journalists involved wrote a single untrue word contained in the copy " proclaiming how wonderful the BC economy is doing...but what facts about the economy were left out ( the effect of low interest rates, surging commodities, equalization payments)?

Is this journalism or political hype? If an advertising agency wrote this... fine...if journalists wrote this... they are not doing their job.

Is this a newspaper or one long promotional brochure?

I can "report" that a black jeep passed me on a straight stretch of highway...so true...but if I leave out that there was a passenger in the back seat being held with a gun to her head... I have a whole other story developing...a whole other truth to explore.

Journalism is supposed to be about providing those necessary and vitally significant details. As much of the whole story as you can get.

Vote Tom Fletcher for Most Under-rated Mediawhore at
haveyouhadenoughyet.com
Other categories available too.
And don't worry about the May 31 deadline. Keep the nominations coming!

Kurt, I don't agree or disagree with every thing you said but the one I'll semi challenge is your statement that the BCTF spent the whole war chest-five million- on election night I saw Jinny Sims be interveiwed when asked how much the BCTF spent she said around two million...how correct she was well I don't know but I'll believe her over the right wingers.

Jamez, you asked "What do you people think happens in a newsroom?"

Not very much apparently and it certainly shows in the copy published in Asperland and, if I were to use the Black chain of fart catchers as an example, I'd say virtually nothing but rewriting whatever is pushed through the mail slot.

The only thing that might be vaguely referred to as hard hitting are the editorials against almost any group that stands up to the BC Liberal government.

And I suppose defending the government against criticism, fair or unfair, is doing the peoples' work.

I don't entirely blame journalists for this decline in their industry over the years, but please turn off the BS about all those new-age Bob Woodwards just waiting for a chance to show the world how great they are as soon as they fill all the little holes left around the ads and the editor takes your blinkers off.

Investigative journalists don't wait for an ok from the editor, they dig the info up and they work equally hard to have it published just as any good professional, who hasn't given up before they've even started, would do.

Work on that backbone a little more before you whine about being unfairly portrayed.

And how about that other poster who claims he/she churned out quite a bit of left-wing editorials while working for a David Black fart-catcher.

I'd certainly love to his/her opinion of what constitutes "left wing", because that claim has about as much validity as me saying I can make music with my ass and a little gas.

Would you call the latest blather coming out of Black's newly appointed leg. correspondent left wing?

Last week it was the big bad BCTF, this week correspondent Tom Fletcher is warning us of the perils of safe injection sites.

You know the ones where junkies can get clean drugs and needles, referrals, health checks etc., etc., etc. without having to steal from or rob the public of thousands of dollars in order to get actual cash to buy a hit or two.

Of course, you know it's all a left wing conspiracy probably financed by all those pinko teachers, right?

Then there is the claim that Mikey Campbell has to jump through hoops for the Sun's Human Resources department. Ya sure, and his brother never had a drinking problem, right?

No, that's just too funny. Next you'll tell me Mikey is known for challenging his brother's political actions and, of course, for not being a paid mouthpeice for the same gang of Howe St. slugs his brother counts on for funding.

When you do finally dry behind your ears listen for the sound of appointments of political columnists outside the regular hiring process and well away of a union position.

It's sort of a squishy noise, much like my music-making. The same sort of stench sometimes too.

If you aren't making enough money to feed yourself after putting yourself through university or a good college program and some experience, go and get help. Organize your newsroom and demand change and use the tools
available to pressure for change.

To sit back because you can work at a liesurely pace and because you don't want to "get involved" or whatever is a complete cop-out.

If you are not satisfied, then do something, because when you do nothing, and that's what most readers see, you appear to be as much a part of the problem as those mean old editors and publishers who have you tethered to the back page.

Yes, writing two stories a day may be a bit tough if you are lazy. Try doing four, five or six without writing what I call stickman copy where the material is so thin it's worthless as anything but fill.

It's been done, as have three or four, but two stories a day, as the concern was about, cry me a river.

Frankly, if you can't churn out two stories in a 7.5 or eight hour day that are readable, informative and factual, then get out of the friggin kitchen and into PR, or take up knitting or something you are more suitable for.

Now, this latest nose stretching apology for the mainsteam media that Kurt has just launched, takes the bloody cake.

Oh, sure Kurt. The Aspers don't try to control editorial copy. There have never been edicts from Winnipeg on what will run and what won't. Coverage of the mid-east politics is completely balance also I presume.

Glen Clark wasn't set up by police who showed up at his home with a search warrant some time after BCTV just happened to decided on a whim to go and park its cameras in front of Clarks doorstep.

What are you smoking Kurt? Remember the metres, yes metres of copy on how guilty Glen was based on comments by a scumball who would normally get absolutely no press coverage
on any other issue unless of course he was an ad buyer.

Fast track a few years and our premier gets caught drunk driving under somewhat questionable circumstances and coverage of that embarassing fiasco gets dropped immediately after El Gordo sheds a couple of Hollywood tears in front of you people.

Not even a word on the fact that his wife left the same press conference with obvious blood in her eyes for her treatment by the now sober premier. Apparently she too didn't appreciate being used as a prop and wasn't even allowed by her husband to answer questions directed at her by reporters.

You miss that too, Kurt.

Now, what do you think the Vancouver Sun would have been doing had the three political appointees who have been charged with influence peddling, fraud, dope growing and who knows what else following the unprecedented police raid on the legislature, been Glen Clark boys?

Would the Sun have remained mute on that little gem that involved a controversial 900 year lease of an asset worth billions that we continue to carry liablility for?

Even during a four week election?

Finally, as a former journalist with two decades of experience, I must say the excuses being bandied about here for the crap that has passed for news in recent years by much of BC's mainstream media is truly disappointing.

In summary, quit whining about what you can't do and do what you know you should do. Report news rather than repeat political lies. There is NO excuse for that, especially from a PROFESSIONAL.

great blather allan. you're definitely in the running, along with kurt, for the verbal diarrhea award.
chris; you need to take a course in logic. maybe name can help, he has a bachelor's degree in liberal arts.

sirjohna, that's just about what I've come to expect from someone like you who isn't afraid to show the world just how out of touch you are.

The wife and kids ignoring you again?

Oh well, better, I guess, that you harangue we faceless people rather than those closer to home.

Allan you obviously know jack squat anbout what you're speaking about that entire,stupid insulting post speak volumes about your ignorance on many issues.
I've never read such a post based on no knowledge of the subject as that one was.
I'd love to see you work in a little town like Grand Forks or something making no money and slaving away insane hours... yet still have the time to break these amazing province wide stories.
You know NOTHING.
FOr the record, I work in radio, but yes I do freelance print.
As well, I wrote many a left wing editorial on everything from opposing the Iraq war to Drug problems where I lived at the time.
Why don't you anti-up and become a journalist instead of whining about the work they do, then we'll see you get a dose of reality and your ignorance may... MAY fade.

Another thing.. who the hell are you to judge my work? I'd love to know that.. you have no clue what I've done, proof again of your kneejerk reactions getting the better of you.
I look back and think about all time and effort the people I know have put into this business, staying up until 5 in the morning to get papers out, spending money out of their own pockets for fuel... literally starving.. ANd yes I HAVE starved. My first job working for Bowes I remember having $30 to buy gorceries for two weeks... a sakc of spuds, a bag of frozen cauliflower hot dogs and as much canned food as I could afford.
Yeah, I did that because I wanted to lie to people like you. I could have stayed working as a city employee, or not quite a very good job as an ad salesman. But I felt, "You know I'd like to get paid nothing to lie to people, and on top of that, I'd like to work 70 hours a week doing it."
Your insults based on your ignorance are laughable... people like you don't deserve good media, you don't care to know how it works and what the problems are.. you rather just sit back and point fingers and make accusations.
Reading crap like yours makes me wonder why I ever even bothered.

Blonde pitbull

I think the metros could be good once it's all smoothed out on a local level. I know the staff at one of them and they are all eager beavers.
But starting a paper from scratch is hard work... they'll have all the kinks worked out soon and then the journalism will follow (I hope)
I don't agree with these super short stories on complicated issues though.
I'd like to see them localcentic though.

"Finally, as a former journalist with two decades of experience, I must say the excuses being bandied about here for the crap that has passed for news in recent years by much of BC's mainstream media is truly disappointing"

- Yeah who did you work for?

If you are who I think you are, it's well documented you couldn't hold a job.

Boy jamez really is annoyed. I think he should be more annoyed at the people who exploited him,during his short "left wing" career. He migh teven join the rest of us in deploring the corporate scoundrels who a have degraded his honorabe profession.Thanks to Canwest and their ilk the media are getting to be as well respected as lawyers and tax collectors.

Bye the bye is it true that the BCTF has launced a very consderable law suit against
CanwWest and Gordo the Great Fibber for the scurrilous lies they printed pre election? Has anybody on this thread heard about this?

Again I get accused of being right wing cause I don't agree on this particular issue.

Group think, group think, group think.

Yeah I'm annoyed I posted how things work in the business, nto my opinion... facts.. and all you people could do was sit there and call me a shill
Sorry for trying to help you actually understand what you're angry at.

yes they've launched another completely ridiculous money-wasting politically-based lawsuit. but hey, what do they care? it's not their money, and there's lots more where that came from.

We cant trust the liberals,canwest and now a judge a long with elections bc.
Judge Dohm fails to count 60 absentee ballots and elections bc says dick.
They havnt even opened the ballots.
There all right winged to begin with and what a coincidence the 60 ballots are in NDP support area.

Filthy 1, Yeah that's pretty disgusting I hope Stevenson goes to town on this one.

jamez, I started out in towns about the same size as Grand Forks and yes I did break stories, infact I broke several stories that corporations attempted with all the subtleties of a Mack truck to kill.

In that case I must admit both my editor and publisher went to bat for me even despite corporate threats of economic boycotts against the publisher and his printing business which did thousands of dollars a month in printing for that firm.

They stood up for me because my copy was accurate, was backed up by sources and was leading the national coverage on the story.

I was digging up the real dirt while the big papers were doing the Sunday morning thumb-suckers.

I also found the time in between to fill the pathetic little news holes with the typical bland drivel advertizers like around their friggin' precious ads, have a family, a life and enjoy and take pride in what I was doing.

That same publisher went through months of having finished printed materials filling his printing shop as the corporation played hardball.

I've had people come into my office and threaten my life and I've had to put up with open hatred and outright lies because I would not budge on my stories.

There were corporate lawyers warning me to back off or else, supposed press conferences where I turned out to be the only media facing more than a dozen corporate exec types determined I change my story.

I don't want to hear how badly things are because you won't stand up for yourself and are afraid some of your colleagues will raise their eyebrows if you speak out.

The whining over how hard you try but you can't get out of generating ad filler simply leaves me cold pal.

A community the size of Grand Forks ought to offer lots of good copy if you would only take the blinkers off and stop blaming others for your shortccomings.

Now, let me see, an editorial opposing the Iraq war is "left wing".

Here's a news flash cowboy, only George W. and his war criminals would call opposition to that war "left wing."

Ok, I admit, Rex Murphy would too, but then that ought to tell you something.

The rest of the world calls it mainstream. It wasn't even a war, it was an invasion. What's happening in Iraq today is a war.

Those editorials must have been quite deep if you missed that fine point.

Quit reading the Vancouver Sun/Province and the National Post for your inspiration on world views.

Finally, by the sound of it I have far more experience than you have had and likely ever will, given your pathetic excuses for churning out pap.

sirjohnA

It's pretty hard to prove libel... I'm not sure the BCTF would go about it if they didn't feel they had a case. They are opening themselves to tons of countersuit options.
It will all come out in court though.

Again, the ignorance shows.
You have no idea of what I've done.
I have no backbone... I'm the only reporter in this PROVINCE right now standing up to the Liberals and some extremely deep-pocketed Corporations on a particular issue.
Through this paarticular story I have forced at least the corps to answer for certain things.. the Liberals, however, keep dodging questions.
I've been threatened with lawsuits too, just like any reporter has.
I've never been threatened with violence? Yes I have, again... nice assumption.. AS is your assumption I work in Grand Forks... the days of working in tiny towns are over for me my friend.

Um, considering G-W was voted in again... I'd say supporting the war does qualify as right wing.. or did you miss that point?

What paper did you work at? What was the style? What was your beat? I ask these because I don't believe you ever worked as a reporter based on what your impressions of the business are.

jamez; i find it very hard to believe that allan ever wrote professionally. i think he's having you on.

I should add, I don't work in print. I work in radio. But I do freelance writing on the side because I enjoy the mnore in-depth hard news I can break and write about through print.
So don't tell me I'm being lazy.

ANd, I haven't picked up a NP in years.

As do I, having been in situations he describes, and knowing others who have been, the stories don't add up.
When a big corp wants to scare a reporter, they don't fly out 12 men in suits (By the way considering most corps in Canada only have a small core of PR people what were all these mysterious men doing?)They just get the lawyers to put the fear of god into you.

jamez, you have just confirmed how friggin little you actually know about Canadian politics or corporate control efforts.

Get your nose out of the comic books. I didn't say anything about 12 pr guys. I stated corporate executives, only one of whom was a real PRick.

And, whether you understand this or not, sending a dozen executives into a small community where there was virtually open warfare beteween the company, many of its employees and most of the community ain't a real big cost factor considering its a tax right-off and the alternative, to ignore the issue would have been even worse, from their view.

Quite frankly I don't really care if you or your buddy sirj think I'm making this up.

Sirj has proven time after time making things up is a trait he shines at almost in parallel with your ability to whine about how tough life is for reporter.

Forgive me if you've been advised of this before but there just isn't such a thing as a slow news day, only slow reporters.

Obviously, adding things up posses a bit of a quandry for you as well, I see.

Finally, you comment about "my days of working in tiny towns is over for me my friend," suggests strongly you carry some deep seated fears that others think you might not measure up.

Anyone who knows anything about journalism when it really was journalism rather than 'communications' knows Allan is completely credible. And, try churning out those stories on an old typewriter. Google? Spellcheck? Ha! A lot of working journalists today, would not be able to compete, not that long ago.

I understand it is a difficult time in the world. Not only for journalists who hitherto, as Allan expressed, had editors who backed them, but for any of us really.

It isn't easy giving up a paycheck and some status for one's integrity, but it is a choice, either way. Unless, of course, you are also a Neo-Conservative. Then you are not acting against your beliefs.(and in my opinion, have no morals anyway)

Allan didn't put you in the position of choosing. The rise of the new fascism did. You are the one who has to be comfortable with your choices. Not anyone here. I agree you can work within the system and against it. I've seen some of that on TV, where in my opinion the editing and camera angles showed someone was fighting the good fight. You can choose to say, just for today, I choose to stay here because of what ever reason you feel necessary, but I will take action where and when I can to resist. And, I will work hard to get out of this situation and into a place where I can speak out. I believe in passive resistance. Mind you I can understand people who don't agree with me, considering how many people are suffering, including children who would normally be apprehended, but with new policy were not and were murdered by their parents. Now, there's a story. Will we see it? At least 3 children were murdered by their mothers in the last four years as reported in the Sun. Where's the outrage? Where's the investigative story about those children and how could it be possible to have such an increase in such a short time? Where's the story about that little boy in Victoria who was given to his mother unsupervised under the new rules and who's throat was slashed by her. That was in January the first year of their term. He had been only allowed supervised access. But, Neo-Conservative policy is that children be returned to their parents as a rule. Even when there is physical abuse. There's lots to really dig up about a lot. But, it hasn't happened. If it had, they never would have been re-elected.

Journalists like Helen Thomas do it one way and Greg Palast another.

Greg Palast.com

The press can jump on one story, or a few and drum beat it home. They did this to the NDP. Never to Campbell's Liberals. Not once. Until just before the election you all were codifying every slightly tsk tsk article about the Liberals with a disclaimer at the end about the NDP doing something worse! Thank Goodness the election will put an end to that now that the NDP are the elected opposition with a high percentage of the popular vote.

It just is a hard time in the world right now. I've had to clarify and solidify my own values a lot during the last four years. It's been remarkable really.

Sorry,

gregpalast.com

It is true one Neo-Con tactic is to really intimidate and bully the press. And, then reward with perks. It's pychologically abusive.

jamez, so you and Stump are telling me we who have given up on the the Sun and Province are morons with no attention span? It should go without saying this thread is longer than any article I've ever seen in the Sun. The thing is, there really are other sources besides the Sun and Province. Between the net, books, family and my actual friggin work I don't have time to read the information in the Sun and Province. There was a day I made time for those pubs but as the quality of the work declined I quit. Its called the free market. The Sun and Province have falling circulation numbers in a growing province for a reason, they're not worth it.

I realize people turning their backs on traditional media may upset both of you. But instead of lashing out at us and accusing us all of being conspiracy theorists who are whining because we don't get what we want in the media you should maybe study up on your basic laws of business. If the public doesn't want what you sell, its not their fault, its yours.

A newspaper should reflect the values of the community back at that community. You don't try and sell the Montreal Gazette in Poland, you sell what people want to read about. Newspapers should reflect a wide variety of the opinion found in their target community, not just a single slice of it. Fazil Mihlar and Mike Campbell and Jon Ferry et al are not a good cross-sample of the community so they come across to many of us as biased. So we continue to read for a year or 2 or 3 and then we just quit bothering even when the Sun calls us and offers us the daily paper for $8 a month.

So we end up spending time at places like the Tyee because the articles are, quite frankly, more interesting. Again, that's not our problem, its yours. If you want people to buy what you sell you don't come to the Tyee and spout off this "I know better than all of you" bs. It doesn't play well. If you and Stump want to shill for traditional media the best place to do that is in that media, make it more interesting and more relevant to my life and I'll buy it. But calling me a moron for not wanting to pay to read Mihlar's latest editorial is not going to get me to part with my $8.

One of the problems I have seen in the media is how a story is submitted. The reporter either e-mails the story or calls it in by cellphone, where it is transcribed. The copy is then sent to an editor who decides what to highlight and what to exclude, also trims the article to fit the space available. The editor is not always aware of the full facts of the story or has no knowledge of the subject. So facts get mixed up or dropped. For a paper like the Province, facts are left out to keep the story short and make it more “emotional”. Quite often the reporter wants to report a good story but is not the final author of the story.
I used to be a member of the Coast Guard dive team and the reporter that ran with the story did an excellent job and prevented the team from being disbanded. So there are good reporters out there.

allan makes an excellent point in a great piece above about the repetition of political lies in the media...that's what the mainstream media is all about these days ...they choose their lie and repeat and repeat it...what Mr. Gutstein refers to so well in those "special sections " of the newspaper that are now fronted as news and are really only political advertising brochures that have no place whatsoever in a "real" newspaper ...contrived selections of the news that intentionally only tell part of the story... the part that supports their special interest backers.

There is no question that the pile of "lost stories" is ever growing, all those stories that the mainstream media have failed to report on or have intentionally turned the heat down so low on that they have faded into oblivion and ultimately been forgotten.

These are times when difficult choices have to be made (not just for journalists but for everybody) if you stay in mainstream media then I hope you find a way to balance what has become a continual clever manipulation of bias and a tampering with the truth...because it has become very clear that it is the mainstream media itself that has become the real enemy of a free society rather than its greatest proponent.

It now misleads the public rather than informs it.

Colin, I agree there are often cases where the reporter has a great story and works his or her ass off to put it all together in a good read only to have some desker who hasn't seen real sunlight in a decade hack the crap out of it.

Yes, often it's for space reasons, but increasingly, readers notice what is really missing from the story is the other side of an issue given coverage.

The reporter may end up writing the piece in her own sweat and blood after anguishing over how to fairly balance a complex issue only to see it run under a headline that appears to have fallen from a UFO.

It doesn't take long to notice when the same newspaper runs the same stock closing paragraph about what Glen Clark was charged with in the late 1990s yet there isn't a goddamned peep about the fact he was completely
exonerated by the courts.

Another example that stands out is the issue of these so-called "fudgit-budgets".

The auditor-general signs off on the figures yet, because a business-friendly opposition isn't happy when the "socialists" prove to be better money managers then them, a compliant media quotes the opposition's belief and soon it's orthodox mantra.

Is it a lie? Of course it is and when it is repeated and repeated and repeated without any mention of the findings of the courts or the accountants, it's as ugly as anything that Pravda ever churned out.

If it is meant to decieve, then in my books it's a lie.

There are a great many good ethical reporters. I would suggest we would see even more evidence of that if we had more good ethical newspaper editors, publishers and chain owners rather than low-lifes trying to manage the
news to serve anyone but readers.

Where this becomes truly frightening is in the chain newspapers serving the smaller communities where young, mainly inexperienced reporters quickly learn the opinions of the local chamber of commerce are far more important than even the most logical of arguments that just might wrongly
influence readers.

SirJohnA wrote: "maybe name can help, he has a bachelor's degree in liberal arts."

The facility with which an identity was invested for me is telling. I've never discussed either my gender or my education.

Reading last night's posts, I don't think that bashing one another's intelligence, dedication or competency as journalists is all that helpful to the debate. We've always had and always will have reporters who are mostly great, mediocre and just plain hacks. One can hardly judge a colleague by the tidbits revealed in a chatroom, without having walked in their shoes. I know a dedicated reporter who spent 10 months on a single story and then churned out 10 stories a day in a different context. (Guess which won the national awards, though!)

The real issue, in my view, is the impact of leadership and structure, because that's what supports (or doesn't support) personal excellence and journalism that goes beyond the mediocre in being brave, enquiring and fair. And a good editor can make even the shoddiest reporter look good.

At the end of the day, a newsroom with its fair share of competent and politically diverse journalists will still produce a partisan cheerleading rag if that's what the senior editors and editorial page editors want it to be. The reporters simply provide the grist for the mill; senior staff take that and do what they want with it.

When I see the Sun, for example, hiring editorial page editors from the CCPA instead of from the Fraser Institute, I'll believe that they really are trying to be "fair and balanced."

Oops, I meant "invented", SirJohnA, not "invested".

'didn't put you in the position of choosing. The rise of the new fascism did.'
red drivel girl's at it again.

Allan, I've not even spoken about Canadian politics. Your lame attacks on me personally don't substitute for an argument...
If you are going to just try to attack me personally, use relevent information.
I have no fears of "Not measuring up" in any capacity, have fun making stuff up instead of answering the questions I've put to you.

BLAH BLAH BLAH.....

You are not worth listening to.

"jamez, so you and Stump are telling me we who have given up on the the Sun and Province are morons with no attention span?"

I never said that.
Why can't people here be civil?
I'm only trying to share a point of view and I've been personally attacked time and time again.

"jamez, so you and Stump are telling me we who have given up on the the Sun and Province are morons with no attention span?"

I won't speak for Jamez, but I challenge you to show me where I said that. I did question the logic of those who complain about the mainstream media on one hand and proudly proclaim they never consume it on the other.

"Its (sic) called the free market. The Sun and Province have falling circulation numbers in a growing province for a reason, they're not worth it."

Yes, it is a free market. Apparently it's working if you want to maintain that lower quality journalism won't be rewarded.

"I realize people turning their backs on traditional media may upset both of you. But instead of lashing out at us and accusing us all of being conspiracy theorists who are whining because we don't get what we want in the media you should maybe study up on your basic laws of business. If the public doesn't want what you sell, its not their fault, its yours."

It doesn't upset me in the least, esp. if it results in more opportunities to do the kind of reporting you want to read, as news outlets shift content to meet demand.

I think you're right about the basic laws of business. The current content in the media is the result of that. And, to turn it right back to you, if the public DOES want what we want, why does THAT become our fault? Try blaming the parents and the teachers for failing in their responsibility to raise and educate informed, community-minded individuals. Because, most consumers aren't the type of people who read the Tyee. You're basing your view of the entire populace on your small demographic segment thereof.

"A newspaper should reflect the values of the community back at that community."

Guess what? They do. Just as the Tyee reflects its readership. Guess what else? Informed, interested individuals aren't a dime a dozen, which is why its so hard if not impossible to deliver the newspaper you seem to be expecting. Remember, its a market driven process. No profit, no paper, because you can't pay the bills.

"If you want people to buy what you sell you don't come to the Tyee and spout off this "I know better than all of you" bs."

The real bullshit here is suggesting we've ever said that. You're going off about free markets on the one hand and then wondering why there's no mainstream media that reflects your tiny segment of the community. Buy it, don't buy it. I don't care. I do however take issue with you (Frank) and others passing judgement on something you're telling me you don't even read. Don't you see the illogic of that?

Well, it's been fun trading opinions, but I think I'm done here. Before I go I challenge those of you who have posted to go on the record with your profession and the many ways in which you are working to make it more responsible to current and future generations.

I'll let this go after this but as much as I agree with most of Name's comment I will reiterate once again: Everyone who is not self-employed has a boss, supervisor, or management calling the shots. Journalists are not alone or exempt from accountability in this regard.

Can you imagine the courage it takes for a nurse or a teacher to go up against management when they recognize management is making decisions that will affect the lives of those in their care? Or a single mother who speaks out when losing her job comes with a very high price? What about a logger or a miner who realizes the workplace is no longer safe and must confront the owner of the company he works for on this?

Or the senior in her eighties in Alberta who died recently after fasting to bring attention to abuses in the senior residence she resided in? You don't think that action came without some risk, some fear of retaliation from management to her personal safety?

Please let's not continue with this wimpy acceptance of "poor things...they have no choice...they alone have big bad bosses... as if no one else in the world doesn't..."

There are many outstanding, brilliant, average, and lousy journalists...just like in any profession...why should we lower the bar for them because they have a senior editor above them... so what ..we all do...

When it comes to the vitally significant things in life like freedom of the press, our health, our education, our human and civil rights...let's set the bar a little higher and encourage those few with enough courage to change things, to do so...to not just settle...to speak out ...and at least once in awhile, for gosh's sakes, blow the whistle on the lies...

"And, to turn it right back to you, if the public DOES want what we want, why does THAT become our fault?"

Should read "if the public DOES want what we provide"

Sorry for the mistake.

Stump, you're right that most readers are more interested in Britney and what's on TV tonight and the other fluff that keeps newspapers profitable. But that doesn't explain the partisan bias in CanWest's coverage (especially if more british Columbians voted for other parties!). And it doesn't mean that the fluff can't exist side-by-side with good reporting. Look at the repercussions, decades later, from Watergate! Most readers love nothing better than good old fashioned muckracking!

And news organizations are entitled to take partisan positions--they always have. BC's problem lies in the market monopoly and the structural reasons that lead to them all taking the same general partisan slant. It's not healthy, and the relatively small readership at sites like The Tyee doesn't adequately balance it. That's what worries people and I think they have every right to be worried.

And many of us who gave up our Sun/Province subscriptions in disgust long ago still check them out often enough to see how little has changed.

As to what people are doing to make things better, I think anyone who gives up their time to participate in this kind of discussion is doing so in the belief that they can make things better--even though we rarely agree on what's wrong, what's "better" and how to go from here to there!

I would just like to know when Don Gutstein/B] is going to get around to doing an analysis of the biases of CBC News. I suspect he will find that they two are Liberal supporters, in their case both federally and provincially.

Perhaps Don could start that article rolling with a short interview with [B]Carole Taylor.

"Please let's not continue with this wimpy acceptance of "poor things...they have no choice...they alone have big bad bosses... as if no one else in the world doesn't..."

You're putting words in our mouths, interpreting what we've (Jamez and I) said (and incorrectly I might add) to suit your argument. I honestly believe that you think you're right, and you are framing the counter-arguments to your opinion in a way to justify your position.

Better journalism needs an audience. It doesn't have it right now. Y'all can bleat and protest to the contrary all you want, but wishing won't make it so. That (audience demand) is the real issue for a market-driven press and is a topic I'd be happy to talk about, but you cannot place all the blame at the feet of the provider when the consumer is complicit. If the Tyee went hard-copy and started selling like gangbusters do you honestly believe the other media outlets wouldn't sit up take notice and begin to compete on those terms... or is it easier to presume yet another conspiracy requiring the complicity of hundreds of professional reporters, editors, and publishers to beat it down?

As much as I enjoy the banter about struggling truth-seeking reporters labouring under the yokes of their quasi-fascist editors /owners/publishers (I am not disputing the truthfulness of this description.), I feel compelled to take the conversation back to the story that spawned it. Sir John, is it really your contention that the Canwest folks were actually practising journalism when they concocted the bogus teachers' strike story in the dying days of the campaign? I have no objection to a slanted media per se. In fact, when I am in jolly old England, I switch back and forth between the left and right wing dailies with equal enthusiasm, finding the so-called centrist papers to be a tad dull by comparison.

My complaint is two-fold: first, Canwest enjoys a near monopoly on the news, a situation no English paper enjoys; second, there is a difference between taking an editorial stance that favours a particular party and creating a fake news story that is a guaranteed torpedo against your political rival. Even if one has a monopoly, one is still obliged -in my view- to adhere to something resembling journalistic principles.

Let's try this. Imagine that Canwest was a clearly left-leaning organisation, and that they ran the following (bogus) headline in the last days of the election: CAMPBELL LIBERALS TO SELL BC HYDRO TWO DAYS AFTER ELECTION!

Seriously, John, how pissed off would you be? Yes, some of us are whiners, but one need not be a lefty to see that there is indeed something to whine about...

"BC's problem lies in the market monopoly and the structural reasons that lead to them all taking the same general partisan slant."

I agree with you one hundred percent. But the solution isn't not consuming those sources and walking away, it's letting those media outlets know you want something different and then voting with your dollars by finding the alternative and supporting it.

I think people don't like hearing that they get the media they deserve. But, it's a fact. Just as we get the politicians we vote for, we also more of the media we support with our $$$. And, when an itty-bitty minority of intelligentsia are unhappy they think the rest of the world shares their opinion. That may not be the case.

"we also get more"

Damn, I'm too hasty with the post button today.

jamez said : "I guess since you stopped reading the newspapers your attention span and ability to understand things has floated away. "

you can use your search option in your browser

""A newspaper should reflect the values of the community back at that community."

Stump said "Guess what? They do"

and

"The real bullshit here is suggesting we've ever said that"

Can't you guys remember what was said further up thread?

""A newspaper should reflect the values of the community back at that community."

Stump said "Guess what? They do"

it does for about 150,000 subscribers I assume but the Sun seems to be failing to do the same for the other almost 4 million. because they've tuned the Sun out.

"Buy it, don't buy it. I don't care. I do however take issue with you (Frank) and others passing judgement on something you're telling me you don't even read. Don't you see the illogic of that?"

I said in my post, if you bothered to read it, that I did use to be a daily reader of both papers.

So I did consume it, for years, and I passed judgement on it. As for the papers not catering to my "tiny minority opinion". It seems that my general opinion is held by about 43% of the voting population and most of them do not see their views reflected in the Sun and Province, therefore those papers are failing in the marketplace.

"But the solution isn't not consuming those sources and walking away, it's letting those media outlets know you want something different and then voting with your dollars by finding the alternative and supporting it."

Actually, that is the solution. No longer spending your dollars on a product will do far more that writing a letter to the editor or a columnist. In the latter case they can at least say people are reading and engaged. Inthe former they've left and are waiting for different media to fund.

I spent the equivalent of 2 months of a Sun sub by buying the Tyee book Liberalized, so I am supporting the media I want to see.

"jamez said : "I guess since you stopped reading the newspapers your attention span and ability to understand things has floated away. ""

you can use your search option in your browser

I was talking to a specific poster.

"I said in my post, if you bothered to read it, that I did use to be a daily reader of both papers."

WHAT? I have to read your posts to have an opinion on them? I guess it's a case of do as I say, not as I do.

That's my parting shot. Later sheeple.

Best you could do Stump?

Guess you better get back to manning those phones and selling those $8 subs.

Stump, I think that a consumer campaign of voting with our subscription dollars is a very effective way to let corporate MSM know we're not satisfied (look at the effectiveness of the enviros' camapign against eating farmed salmon). So are letters to the editor and top execs, which many of us have written, I'm sure. The Sun's hiring of Sean Holman to cover politics during the campaign was, I'm convinced, a direct response to the criticism that they'd been getting.

And our weakness for fluff notwithstanding, I maintain that a healthy segment of the public does have an appetite for good investigative reporting and/or in-depth analysis of dry government affairs when it really matters.

Look at how folks are eating up the stuff being dug up about Mr. Grewal's past. Look at the MSM's coverage of Gommery. Remember the furor over Mike Smyth's revelations that the Children's Ministry was actually considering leaving kids exposed to "moderate sexual abuse" due to cuts ordered by the BC Liberals? Holman's revelations about Doug Walls or Prem Vinning? (Many CanWest columnists continue to do fine work--you can read some terrific recent columns from Willcocks' on his own Website, for example--though they never make it to Page 1 or get the play that the cheerleaders do.)

The central issue here--or at least the key issue that Gutstein raised--was not the quality of journalism per se but a prevailing pro-Liberal slant in the MSM in general and the CanWest boosterism in particular that underlay their appalling editorial judgment in running screaming Page One headlines about a phony BCTF/NDP strike conspiracy on the eve of elections.

Davey-Boy's "Liberals to sell BC Hydro" analogy was a good one. It was appalling journalism and a frightening reminder of how media abuses can potentially undermine democracy. Some 50,000-odd column inches of acrymonious debate here has done nothing to detract from that fndamental point.

Yes, Jamez, you did say that comment to a specific poster - me - a long with a bunch of other cheap shots, because, well, you didn't like what I said, about you didn't seem suited to newspapers.The ironic thing is you admit that your regular employment is in radio not print. I still stand by that statement because of some glimmers of humour that poke through. However, when you told me I offended you I apologized not once but twice. I have yet to get one back. I took you to the posting that I based my comments on told you where and why I came to that interpretation. So I'm either due an apology or you are going to explain to me on the wheres and whys that make you feel that way about my posting(s)....

Smartest thing said today was by stump "I think people don't like hearing that they get the media they deserve. "

Come on Allan, jamez and others your letting your ego's get in the way, I'm sure you are great people with passion but this back and forth is accomplishing nothing. We are taking our eye of the ball, the ball is the state of the media is this province and country , anyone that is not on BC bud knows the sad state of the MSM at this time in history. CANWEST , CORUS, CBC etc. Any grassroots organization that shows us a new system or way of doing things will be marginalized and forgotten while the Neo Liberal agenda is pushed.

So I must first clear up a point that Lynn address in my last post, I said that no worker is going to put himself in harms way if they love their job.

Lynn responds
"It is just not true that "no worker puts themselves in harms way, career wise, if he/she loves their work." I know a number of people in my life that have done just that... teachers, nurses, loggers... that have spoken out and not self-censored...some have paid the price for that..."

Lynn is correct , and I admire those who have stood up against great odds and put themselves on the line, but this is happening less and less. The reason for my statement is as follows, I don't think it’s the journalist fault altogether, their just the messenger and have strict guidelines. I also don't think its useful at this time to call them hacks , shills etc which gets us nowhere fast, I think we need to review the platform and protections that people of integrity have to make a stand. In short we need as a society to build protections for whistle blowers and build systems outside the msm where we take back our publicly owned transmission lines, they belong to us and unless we are willing to fight why should anyone take risks for us the lazy populace, sorry folks don't count on others when your afraid to stand up and be counted. It starts with you , don't count on the some celebrity to save you, if we as a forum could have some small plans of action to bring forth it would have a huge impact. Unless we have plan to build up a new media or take back exsisting media than we are doomed to have this conversation after every election.

Fighting... urge... to respond... can't... hold... back.

"Best you could do Stump?

Guess you better get back to manning those phones and selling those $8 subs."

Guess YOU better re-read my posts Frank. I already said I work in the shallow plastic money trench known as tv news. FWIW, I'm not a reporter either, just to clear that up.

jamez, if you feel I am attacking you then you ought to ask yourself why.

You want me to answer your questions yet you call me a liar before I do.

Just for your information I have covered just about every beat there is or was because some of them like the labour beat have been nicely done away with by the corps who don't like to see workers having a say on the front page.

I'll excuse you if you don't understand what a labour reporter is because radio really never was a labour sort of news media. It's simply too shallow to explain anything more complicated than a he said, she said

Besides, you sound much too full of yourself to have been around long enough to understand you aren't the only reporter around.

As far as making things up, it would appear you did exactly that with your "oh, I've done that and more' attitude to my comments in which you then try to tell us you are the only journalist in BC taking on the grits.

Aside from sounding like some insecure twerp who has to go one better on each shot, you sound like a fool making such high-handed claims of your ability, especially when you come in here and whine about how hard it is for us poor reporters to do our jobs.

Your life experience appears to be quite limited, something which again oozes out of your copy like a wart on your nose.

I didn't say you still worked in Grand Forks, but then you read that in my copy so again I wonder just how quick on the draw you really are.

You appear to have some convenient answer for everything directed at you, yet you come in here slamming us as no-nothings and trying to explain how the media works and why we are dumb assholes for criticising reporters.

But then you go and tell us all you never read newspapers. Just brilliant!

You have moved all over the place since bumbling onto this forum and now you tell us of your own self-imposed ignorance.

Grow up. Your excuses are shallow and pathetic and you are sore that so many people understand that.

Oh, but I'm sure your bud Sirj. will encourage you. He doesn't get many on here to agree with, which may say something about those who do.

Stuart, you are correct, but I just can't resist tossing things at pompous know-it-alls who then go on and express how little they really do know.

You work where? Sorry Stump I read the first few words and then became easily distracted by a flashing light due to my not reading the Sun.

Look, you can't stand on the principle, 'keep paying to read the MSM or don't complain about it and when you do feel like complaining, write a letter, because if you stop paying you have no reason to complain'. The logic just runs in a circle. Fact is, people are willing to pay for the media they want, but will not just keep paying the media we don't want in the hopes they will change.

Unlike the Tyee, TO Star, NY Times etc, the Sun wants to charge for web access. Fine, that's their right. But it better be worth paying for. If it isn't there is no reason to support them when other sources are available. The Sun simply cannot wrap itself in the flag and say support your local product just because we would like you to. Its even more galling when you consider the Sun's stand on supporting local ferry workers or local Hydro employees or... the list goes on. The only people they seem to support locally are the local right-wing think tanks whose personnel they're happy to employ.

And like it or not, the narrow point of view emanating from the MSM in this province is pretty obvious to most of the population. Obvious even to the MSM in Seattle apparently.

Frank:

You don't have to pay to read the paper. Libraries have them for free. You're missing my point again and again. I support your right as a consumer to buy whichever fishwrap you like. I question your (and others) assertion that there's some great groundswell of readers handcuffed by bad journalists from getting the facts on an issue.

The logic I'm questioning here is when you say you don't read the paper, yet are qualified to comment on its contents. Parse that for me wouldja?

Even if you subscribe to any Canwest paper you have to pay extra to look at the same paper or other Canwest papers on-line. I used to enjoy reading Vaughn Palmer's column in the Sun but as a Canwest customer I resented paying extra to read his column.

The Herald developed such a double standard between politicians they liked versus disliked it became useless as a source of information I cancelled my subscription.

What was funny is the new poll which came out wednesday with the Conservatives trailing badly didn't even make the first section of the paper(I saw the paper at work).

Stump, if that's the point it comes down to, let me try this. I never said I don't read the Sun, I said I no longer read it. I do not comment on what is in the Sun "today" because I obviously never read it. I can however comment on the Sun's move to the right from the old days. I was a reader of the Sun pre-Black and during-Black (although not as often) and even at the start of the Asper era. Since then the only times I have read the Sun is in a McDonalds or something and I'm passing the time as I eat. So I don't feel qualified to comment on Mihlar's editorial of today. However, I do feel qualified to comment on the Sun and Province's declining circulation and at least up to the time I quit reading it, its decline in quality. Being as the same people are still at the paper I feel qualified to comment on their journalistic talent.

The Sun and Province are learning that its easier to keep an audience than it is to get them back after they've gone elsewhere. If they were suddenly writing great stuff how would I know? Well, I guess someone would tell me. But word-of-mouth is not a positive thing for either paper right now so I doubt I'm missing anything.

I am not going to go to a library to read a paper. What would be the point? If I wanted to read it I'd buy it.

"jamez, if you feel I am attacking you then you ought to ask yourself why.

You want me to answer your questions yet you call me a liar before I do."

I called you a liar because I asked you three times what you did and you never answered.

Funyn first I wasn't sure I measured up, now I'm full of myself. Well, which is it smart guy?

For the record the reason I attacked in DEFENSE of myself was you never did anything but come on here, make a bunch of accusations about me personally and then that was it.

I know what a labour reporter is, if you read I used to work in print but am in radio now. I also freelance printed journalism.
And during the last election I worked from 5:00 am until 10:30 at night most of the time as I was covering three ridings, plus normal news in the region. Radio is not a sit back and relax gig.
"As far as making things up, it would appear you did exactly that with your "oh, I've done that and more' attitude to my comments in which you then try to tell us you are the only journalist in BC taking on the grits.

Aside from sounding like some insecure twerp who has to go one better on each shot, you sound like a fool making such high-handed claims of your ability, especially when you come in here and whine about how hard it is for us poor reporters to do our jobs.

Your life experience appears to be quite limited, something which again oozes out of your copy like a wart on your nose."

YOU'VE NEVER EVEN READ MY COPY AS FAR AS YOU KNOW!
I never whined about why reportes can't do their jobs. I explained the challenges reporters in a format I only do freelance now are faced with.
What do you know about my life experience? For all you know I could have spent a year in Iraq covering the war there (I haven't by the way, just making a point)

Also I said I was the only one challengint the libs on a particular issue.
So stop twisting it around... and please... name-calling?
What are you 12? Get your face out of the comic books and get some life experience.
I'm done with you. All you can do is make personal attacks and it's a waste of my time. Write what you like, I won't waste time responding.

Stump, "the poor things" comment was not aimed at you are jamez, but to those who defend you in this regard... written because I feel no one, no, not even journalists ( I would almost say especially journalists) have the right to the excuse "I'm a poor defenceless thing being held hostage by my bosses"... all of us are at management's mercy to a point, for awhile at least... as this isn't a perfect world... but it doesn't let anyone off the hook for their own accountability in the process and for the eventuality that sooner or later they should act to oppose the injustice or the continued bias, otherwise, they must share in the complicity and become part of the corrupt process themselves.

You asked Stump so I'll tell you:

I was a teacher and I went up against a school superintendent in regards to how another teacher who had little training in special ed. was mistreating the kids in her special education class...not a smart career move on my part... but I'm not big on the importance of careers anyway...though you do learn very quickly the real meaning of the word "alone"...

All the higher ups continued to be very nice...the old "so glad you brought this to our attention" but an invisible black list comes down nonetheless... because (what you come to realize after awhile) is that they are all just protecting their own jobs...that's the real threat that speaking out engenders...you are disturbing a really cozy comfortable system that everyone has got quite used to...you are risky business incarnate...but a lot of good changes happened from it...for those kids and eventually surprisingly... even for little old me.

Believe me it wasn't noble on my part, I was just angry at what I saw and I know a fair number of people who have done the same thing in their own way...but I've put up with things I shouldn't have as well and I've made my own pretty good share of stupid mistakes...so it all balances out somehow...someonce once told me that I'm a person that always walks backward and against the wind but that I seem to arrive on time at the right place in the end. Not sure if that's a compliment but it seems to have worked so far...not sure if I'd recommend it though... anyway, good luck to you Stump...actually I think this has been a very interesting discussion by all...

Stuart/lynn
Fear not I don't usually get into such squabbles unless unjustly attacked by a walf-hit hypocrite. I'll be ignoring him on all matters from here on.

I've enjoyed your posts on this however

Jamez, let me shed another tear for your ever so injured pride.

Look pal, it was you who came into Tyee ready to tell us yokels that we don't know diddly about newsrooms and how dare we ever challenge someone with your experience.

Oh yes, you were speaking up to defend journalism from the inanities of us info infidals who chatter and, as your buddy of convenience states, "blather on" about mysteries we don't understand.

Good for you Jamez.

And all along I thought I was dealing with a still-wet-behind-the-ears-radio brat.

"YOU'VE NEVER READ MY COPY AS FAR AS YOU KNOW, you scream in great big caps.

YES I HAVE.

In fact, you have provided enough copy here to offer a fair assessment.

I don't think you even wanted to get into a heated debate, but instead thought you might use the Tyee to try to lord it over we infidals who, of course, don't know a friggin' thing about newsrooms.

At the risk of offending others, I must ask, are you a short man?

Allan, don't waste your time. The boy can shoot off his proverbial mouth but can't acknowledge his mistakes. Just an ill-mannered punk.

Not only did CanWest help but so did Shaw Cable TV. If there was ever a reason to return to real community broadcasting the following should make the case very clear.

During the provincial election, I was travelling throughout the interior of the province on a non-election work assignment. I was staying in Hotels and often watched my TV. I'm kind of a local news junkie, like to know what's happening in the towns I work in.

The Shaw Cable Channel Show, "Daily", four days after the election began, continued to show stories of Gordon Campbell announcing various pre-election goodies. These goodie stories were being repeated every 15 minutes every 24 hours. I call Elections BC to see if this programming contravened the ACT. I was informed that it did. I called Shaw TV in Prince George and let them know that this was illegal, it would have to stop immediately or they would have to register as a third party for continuing to broadcast blatant Liberal "goodie" stories during an election.

The story did not repeat itself during the next 15 minute rotation. Now I wonder how many other towns serviced by Shaw's Cable tv station, ran local "good news" stories featuring the map of Gordon Campbell and his vicious government?

ocean44: Good points, politics is all about advertising now, selling the lie. I think ElectionsBC (and others) have some answering to do as well...what about those unopened ballots in Stevenson's riding...under Dohm's watch...

For someone who says he has written "so many left leaning editorials" and considers himself quite left of center, Jamez comments show no consistency to back this up...he hits at unions, the NDP... and questions those that back The Tyee... and the sure giveaway that as a teacher I recognize right away... is the hit at the BCTF...(usually followed by how much they respect teachers... just that they think teachers have no right to representation or a right to strike)...no, I think jamez is travelling in incognito here, in the company of sirj and crew....

It has been my observation that said "Jamez"is full of crap!

"Jamez comments show no consistency to back this up...he hits at unions, the NDP... and questions those that back The Tyee... and the sure giveaway that as a teacher I recognize right away... is the hit at the BCTF...(usually followed by how much they respect teachers... just that they think teachers have no right to representation or a right to strike)...no, I think jamez is travelling in incognito here, in the company of sirj and crew...."

I never said any of that... my observation is you are full of crap and have to twist what I say to try to make me an enemy.
Get a life

Jester... you can only wish I'm full of crap.. you're just to dumb to get away from your line of thinking

BP what mistakes?

What mistakes?
Ill-mannered... look at yourt first post to me.... rude, that's what started it.

Man the people on this site are halfwits.

Uh Jamez, your first two posts where implicit "shots" at both the ndp and the bctf and where dead give-a-ways to your political leaning. but who's counting?

If you choose to label all those who disagree with you (in part or in whole) as an enemy or part of a conspiracy you'll never really hear what they say, or learn anything beyond what you've come to regard as gospel truth.

What two shots? Please let me see them so I may explain... not that I should have to explain my personal politics.
So, I don't agree with you on this issues.
l

MBruan, I looked at what I think you're refering to.

I can see how you would take those as shots to the NDP, but they weren't meant to be.
I was making the point that this website, which produces good stories, is heralded to be some kind of bastion of fair journalism. When in reality it's not. Unless of course you only consider fair journalism to be journalism that champions your causes, which is what most people define it as.
It goes back to what I was saying about having open and honestly bias newspapers in society so we don't have to worry about such debates.

Gallup: Public Confidence in Newspapers, TV News Falls to All-Time Low

By E&P Staff

Published: June 10, 2005 11:00 AM ET

NEW YORK Public trust in newspapers and television news continued to decline in Gallup's annual survey of "public confidence in major institutions" in the United States, reaching an all-time low this year.

Those having a "great deal" or "quite a lot" of confidence in newspapers dipped from 30% to 28% in one year, the same total for television. The previous low for newspapers was 29% in 1994. Since 2000, confidence in newspapers has declined from 37% to 28%, and TV from 36% to 28%, according to the poll.

However, some other institutions fared far worse this year, suggesting a broad level of distrust, cynicism or malaise.

Confidence in the presidency plunged from 52% to 44%, with Congress and the criminal-justice system also suffering 8% drops. Confidence in the U.S. Supreme Court fell from 46% to 41%. The 22% confidence rating for Congress is its lowest in eight years, and self-identified Republicans have only a slightly more positive view of the institution than do Democrats.

The military topped the poll with a 74% confidence rating, with the police at 63% and organized religion at 53%. Big business and Congress (both at 22%) and HMOs (17%) brought up the rear.

Looking at the newspaper numbers, of those surveyed, 24% say they have "very little" confidence in them, while 1% said "none." By far the highest number, 46%, said "some," with 28% expressing strong confidence.

Thanks Stump for the timely info.

I'd like to see some Canadian numbers on this. I'm willing to bet they're even lower.

"However, some other institutions fared far worse this year, suggesting a broad level of distrust, cynicism or malaise."

Perception may be just that, and not a reflection of reality. I believe the media in general is, and has to be, trustworthy, otherwise there's no market for the product.

Thr figures are interesting but a little deceiving... seems comparable to the cult of celebrity that everybody professes cynicism at, the glitter world that no one admits to watching, but obviously someone is still eating it up... and even though newspaper sales are falling there must be enough people still buying them (or reading them in other ways)...like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny...even when you stop believing in them... they still have their draw and influence.

So I think you are correct, Stump, in your point about perception and reality, at this point in time at least...though things may soon be about to take an even more interesting turn... I'm not sure if trustworthiness is why people buy newspapers though....

Jamez, your mistake was assuming that when I told you were too funny to do "newsroom" media and to find a different avenue to use this aspect of your personality that I was being mean, nasty, whatever.Radio "works" in my eyes (and is in the same media) because they use humour all the time to reach and keep their audience. I still say that there isn't much use for humour in the news. I got an instant response to this that made very clear that you don't find being funny an attribute you wish to cultivate. So I apologized twice but didn't get one in return for the cheap shots, I felt you took at me, hence the "ill mannered" ... "punk", to me, is someone who has little respect for the ways/feelings of those that are in the "society" they are interacting with ie: theives, vandals...
When I first found this site I spent a while just reading to see if they, the posters, were people who were generally responded well to conflicting / differing opinions and on the most part found this sight to have regulars who could respect one and other even if they don't always agree. I have myself and have seen others who meant one thing and have had others interpret it wrong come back and say like what!? Nothing wrong with mistakes or misinterpretation but there is when you can't acknowledge my / your own and pay the dues accordingly.
As for being a "half wit"(I'm assuming I'm part of the "people" you refer to) ,well, you don't know me very well and your opinion is in direct conflict with those who do...

"apologized twice but didn't get one in return for the cheap shots, I felt you took at me, hence the "ill mannered" ... "punk", to me, is someone who has little respect for the ways/feelings of those that are in the "society" "

Was I not civil to you after we resolved that problem? You know damn well I was, then you went and called me ill mannered.

I don't know you, and it seems not knowing someone doesn't stop people here from making personal attacks instead of addressing the actual comments made.

Look at my posts and tell me I was the instigator of any personal attacks...THE INSTIGATOR.

This bikering is just silly... I'm tired of defending myself personally by a bunch of people who don't know me, and seem to regard personal attacks as a form of debate.

This is the last I will say on the issue. In the future I will be open to discuss any issues of those of you with differing opinions. However, any personal attacks will not be responded to.

Civil, yes, okay, but in my upbringing you apologize when someone tells you you were insensitive or hurtful. Did you apologize to me? No. The closest you got was to say you felt that I had provoked you. I always thought that telling someone they were funny was a compliment but...I was wrong with you.
Did you stop taking shots at Allan or who ever telling them let's not compare our "big sticks" (mines bigger than yours) lets talk about how the Canwest crew could be more open to the public on the legit rights of people to have full access to info on all "stories". Trust me, Jamez, I will refrain from many comments to you as I don't think you can/want to understand me very well. Even Sirj, whom is not well loved here, manages to converse with me.

Blonde... Okay, sorry I never apologized to you before, it was nothing more than an oversight.
However, I would not stop taking shots at whats his name cause he wouldn't stop taking them at me... if he wanted to go after my opinion fine, but he attacked me on a personal level, which is useless over the net.
And I will be completely civil to anyone here who returns the courtesy, as you will come to see.

Either way, let's start over and forget the other stuff.
Cheers

the tyee criticizes canwest for being too biased, but pumps out bullshit propaganda ad infinitum. what a bunch of bloody hypocrites. typical lefty victimized crybabies.

Sirj: Your ignorance never ceases to amaze me. Comparing 'lil ole Tyee and Canwest is ridiculous.

You see, Canwest is a machine that controls media (and some foolish minds) across the nation. This same machine contributes funds to a governing political party. Do you see a problem yet?

Tyee is a small local funded moutpiece for people who are tired of the media-based sodomy that the Crapwest Media whores dish out using all media vehicles.

It's pretty astonishing for you to complain about a little wed based outlet that is battling the obvious fraud that is the mainstream media.

You just don't get it. Or perhaps you do and just don't want to believe the Orwellian state you live in.

i get it jeeves. you lefties are naturalized victims who live in a world full of hip cliches and need something to blame for all of your mandane problems. the convenient culprits include canwest, the neocon fascists, big business and privatization, among many others. blather on.

Jeeves:

I completely understand the point you're making. However, there is a princple under discussion here. People come to the Tyee, many of them to talk about what they see as injustice in the media (it being bias, or whatever). But the site they are complaining to can be just as bias as the one they are complaining about.
If people want to treat the Tyee as a left wing site, and if its readers want it to be one, fine, but be upfront about it.
All not being honest about it does is perpetuate the problem of both sides doing what they want. All the while thinking the ends justify the means.

Why would the Tyee officially declare itself biased? For what purpose?

Does Can-West declare itself biased? Contributing to a political party would appear to be evidence of bias but I have yet to see the masthead of the Sun say its a BC-Liberal paper. I have yet to see CKNW declare itself as a BC-Liberal radio station.

Perhaps they believe its better for them to insist they're objective in spite of evidence to the contrary?

Now in the above post you claim that Can-West is as biased as the Tyee? I would agree. If Can-West was a "big-tent" media it would reflect the values of most of the entire community. Instead, it chose to be one-sided. The Tyee provides that balance but is certainly not as big or influential as Can-West. Since this is where my views are reflected, this is where I come. Seems pretty straight-forward to me. Now if I was a right-wing conspiracy theorist I would hang out on Shotgun or Free Dominion or various right-wing blogs yet it seems many right-wingers also enjoy Tyee standards of journalism and are thus attracted here.

As for the rest of us here, we seem to be pretty open about our political beliefs. I haven't yet ever tried to claim that I am unbiased, detached, above the fray in any way.

I get it too sirjohna. Your 'righties' are brainwashed scavengers feeding on the scraps left rotting during the race to the bottom while whistling thru the graveyard under the delusion that the neo-con way will make you all captains of industry. The convenient scapegoats for the reason you're all not gazillionares already include social justice, unions, and a little characteristic that we humans refer to as compassion. Blather on.

If you had any real arguments you'd use them. Too bad you're stuck with old, tired, busted rhetoric and lies as your chief weapons. At least the Spanish Inquisition had surprise on their side. That's a Monty Python reference for you. But you probably don't watch BBC programmes do you? The giant claw of public television grasping at tax dollars undoubtedly sickens you.

stump; you win the boring award.

sirj:

I'm not a victim of anything. In fact I'm proudly self sufficient. To compare the Tyee with Canwest is preposterous. There wouldn't even be a need for the Tyee if the national mainstream media weren't donors to a governing party and the public was subject to jackboot gestapo reporting at the hands of the Canworst media whores.

I dont understand your argument at all. Here we have the Crapworst machine that controls theTV, the print media and the radio that gives money to a political party and that's ok?

Put the crackpipe down and think of the excrement you are dishing out

jeeves; you lefties are so good at rationalizing hypocrisy. as long as it's for the cause it's just. that's why the ndp is so dangerous and will never hold power again. witness glen clark, dave stupich, bob williams, dave zirnheldt et al.

If the NDP will never hold power again, why are they so dangerous Einstein?

You're so stupid you contradict yourself and think it passes for wisdom. It's not even a passable troll numbskull, cuz it's too easy to refute.

ROTFL laughing at you. Later putz.

you're obviously too simple to understand stumpy. classy post though. are you dave zirnheldt or dave stupich?

Just curious about what you folks thought of the Province this morning. The article about the gent being fired for whistleblowing the turtle story.
Didn't seem to friendly to the libs to me.
Odd thing is it was broken over the radio days ago, don't know why the province took so long to grab it.
Another story reflecting bad on the libs too a few pages in.
Thoughts?

good luck getting objective opinions from these guys jamez. they are the most narrow-minded group of lefties you'll find anywhere. anyone that disagrees with their antiquated socialist view is a conspiracist neocon fascist capitalist pig. such a strange way to live one's life.

Jamez, I read it this morning, I think that McAdams did the right thing. They fired the wrong guy. Barisoff went against the rules, in typical Liberal fashion, so that some developer could "save" money. In other words pocket it. When reading that Ministry spokesmans' statement about expecting loyalty from employees to the gov't not to personal interests I wonder if he realized how ridiculous he sounded.
As for not sounding very Liberal friendly like you said if this story had been out there for a few days I guess they were either covering their butts or maybe they've gotten tired of hearing from annoyed citizens like me and/or watching their subscriptions fall...Who knows really?

Sirj, sweetie, you're sounding a little cranky today maybe you are in need of a day off? Low blood sugar? Constipated? A apple or two would help fix both of those.

jamez, I heard the story on News 1130, didn't know it was in the province. Unfortunately News 1130's version is pretty short and left me with more questions.

As for the relationship to the "bias in media" subject. I don't believe I ever said that there was never anything negative in the Sun/Province about the Libs. Palmer and Smyth do write negative columns now and then about the Libs, there is a columnist whose name I suddenly forget who writes a lot of negative stuff about the federal Conservatives. Stephen Hume (is he still with the Sun) used to write stuff that was negative.

The point of my objections was in the number of negative-Lib versus negative-NDP, the editorial positions of the papers which are overwhelmingly pro-Lib, the political donations by the paper to the Liberal Party, etc.

..and sirj is the most active poster here. Tired of the Crapwest media whores sirj?

The Canworst empire will dish off the odd story like this to give an appearance of objectivity. When it comes to anything heavy like the election, Campbell's criminal conviction, the criminal investigation into BC Rail, Campbell's cousin stealing hundreds of thousands from us - it's off the radar.

This story is meaningless. What about the real stories?

Jeeves, you are right that this story isn't a big fish in the Libs shady dealings but does manage to continue to bring to the publics attention how little they care about anything but money and how little they respect the laws/rules that they are expected to play by.

Frank - Funny thing about this story is Chorus broke it five days ago.. I don't know what took the Province so long. But it is a freelancer who did it.

Little meaningless stories will be put out to showcase the appearance of balance, when it counts
We see the CanWest empire go to work. Compare the Glenn Clarke Porch reno vs the coverage of The BC Raid on the ledge, if you feel the coverage is balanced you should get back on the meds.

Word to the wise, its okay to debate issues with those of opposing views but name calling and attacks that have nothing to do with debate is just devaluing the forum and wasting your time. Just ignore the parasites that want a peeing contest with you. The Tyee is a valuable tool as we seen in the last election and scares the crap out of allot of folks, there are people who come here just to devalue and stifle debate, don't let them.

Any point of view has some bias, but the difference between CANWEST and independents like the tyee is the reach vs the public input. Try to voice an opinion to CANWEST that you disagree with and see what happens. The tyee encourages open debate while the MSM does all it can to discourage it. I am very excited and will support the new Global TV Channel coming out, once people taste truth they can't get enough of it,

Stuart:

I was actually living in the Martimes at the time most of the GLen Clark deck stuff came out so I can't really compare the two.

jamez, for someone who claims to be up to date on BC issues, your latest 'Oh I was living in the Martimes', is a pretty sad admission.

I go away for three days only to come back to read your ongoing blather, about your superior news abilities backed up of course, by lots of encouragement from sirj the hun, and I'm just dumbfounded.

You still don't get it. Make any claims you want on Tyee, but quit trying to pump yourself up along with the superior benefits of radio, which are only enjoyed by those who buy ads.

So you just recently came from back east, but then did a stint or so on a Grand Forks weekly before becoming the top radio journalist in BC.

Of course anyone who objects to your loud, abnoxious know-it-all approach and tells you so is "a nitwit".

Tyee is a left leaning news centre. If you go out late tonight Jamez, you might notice it isn't sunny at midnight either.
If it took you weeks to figure that out, I'd suggest staying with the batting averages or something less confusing.

But, if you came here to tell us "nitwits" we are being duped by a left-wing conspiracy give us a break.

Of course, Tyee is left wing. All the commerical news agencies including no doubt, your radio employer is not. We know that, even sirj knows that.

What is this wisdom you are so intent on imposing on us, again?

Uuhh, Allan, that's "half wits"....
Jamez, if you weren't here I'd suggest you make a trip to the library and do some research in their archives on the local papers to inform yourself on the topic it comes up quite often.....

Blonde_P, I don't think this bozo is into doing research. If he doesn't already think he knows it then it didn't happen.

He represents the type of journalism that has become all to prevalant of late in BC. These tykes get hired by one of David Black's fart catchers and they think they're practicing journalism.

They write a moderately right wing editorial to fill in around ads and they suddenly think they look a bit like Che.

Of course they don't mind slamming "big" labour the NDP, Tyee and other non-right-wing
entities such as the BCT, even to the point of exposing so much of what they don't know.

But the best part is when they tell everyone else that the Sun, Province and almost every radio station in BC has balance in their news as a criteria.

When someone tells this puffed-up newstoad that he's blowing smoke and being a way more than mildly presumptuous, he then either pompously offers a lesson in newsroom realities that many of us knew before he gave up the comic books or he offers that wounded "how could you say that" whine of being so injured from such vile gutter sniping.

This is a guy who just hasn't even clued into the politics in BC, yet is so full of himself he thinks the Sun and Province are balanced media outlets.

Of course, you have to take that with a grain of salt because he also informs us he hasn't read a newspaper in years.

This bozo is nothing more than a shill and apologist as someone said early on for the right wing media.

The thing that really gets me is why it always seems the loudest and dumbest are going to teach us about the media, market forces and life in general.

I've got more respect for sirj who seldom pretends to know anything, but who apparently is smart enough to have this bozo thinking he has a partner in his fight against all things left.

Sorry Blonde P., but this clown is why I'm happy I don't have to rely on BC's version of mainstream media for anything.