Good Article.

This colourful & far-ranging piece covers the bases of today's European social movement against the debt crisis.

Of course, a worldwide

Of course, a worldwide economic collapse is imminent, because the world's economy is built on false pretenses , with imaginary money used to enslave and collectivize.

There's no such thing as "future growth", because the world's population is increasing at a self destructive rate and resources are finite.

The GDP is a fraud, as it is based on fraudulent monetary values, accounting destruction as as "growth", to mislead people into a false sense of values and security.

Canada is not better off, because our idiot governments are destroying any degree of self sufficiency and skills, relying on the sale of the country under people's feet.

It is bordering on the criminal, when politicians in our "developed" countries are talking about the nonsense of "job creation", while stripping their own countries of industries, skills and real productivity to please a criminal power elite.

Can't these fools, and their miseducated economic priesthood, with their false advice, realize the obvious that when people are deprived of incomes by "cheap imports", the losses to their own countries are higher than what gained by the price differences between home made products and imports ?

Nothing is gained, except by a few special interests, with "free trade" and "globalization", the biggest crime waves in human history.

Here in BC we're paying a high price for those "cheap goods", with the losses for
opportunities for real private enterprise, the collectivization of industries under foreign control, the opportunities for people to own their homes and lands, and to learn and work in productive skills.

Capitalism is at the same stage communism was in the '70s and '80s and its collapse will ruin the lives of billions, yet it could be mitigated if our politicians would have some brains and start making plans for the highest degree of self sufficiency in all countries, all over the world, to save their own peoples.

Exports and imports based economies are nothing more than the road to economic suicide.

Ed Deak.

What Ed Deak Says

I was all set to expound my thoughts on this great article. But Ed Deak beat me to it. Well said.

Great coverage as usual.

Greece and spending

I seem to recall that just before the economic crsis, Greece shelled out something like 16 billion Euros on weapons spending. This was to protect themselves from somebody, I do not know who that might be, Macedonia perhaps. No mention has been made of this outlay, not in the media, not at the G8 or G20. The weapons business appears to be the biggest business in the world and it almost never shows up in the business section of my paper, and not in this article. Elephant in the room?

Morphed?

It appears our "Capatalist" economy is morphing into a greedy "gimme money" economy at every level.
Ann Rand...Where are you??

The European problem is socialism

The problems in Greece and Spain are the result of the public sector becoming the largest part of the country's economy. Many Greek public sector workers can retire at 55, and so the private sector must fund about 25 years of pensions for each retiree. As a result, there is a huge problem with tax evasion and the underground (tax-free) economy. The private sector is refusing to pay for this massive transfer of wealth to people they believe have done little to earn it.

As Lady Thatcher once said, the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

Self-sufficiency I...

"Though now, the insurrections of the Spanish Indignados, or disillusioned Greek and British youth, demonstrate that Europe is our future -- just not the future we'd dreamed of. A vivid image of economic deterioration which leaves unfulfilled the consumer desires installed in my generation since birth. Our collective expectation of an imagined future with fulfilling careers that delivered money we could use to realize the promised wonders of consumer goods has been dashed by the reality of financial limitations and banking crises. " From the lead article.

And this reality is closing in on us all fast. And while I agree with Ed re the usefulness/imperative of people beginning to move to set up their own self-sufficiency economic and political systems NOW, waiting for the capitalist State to do it for us, is simply not going to happen. It is but another way of burying one's head from the obvious reality.

"Capitalism is at the same stage communism was in the '70s and '80s and its collapse will ruin the lives of billions, yet it could be mitigated if our politicians would have some brains and start making plans for the highest degree of self sufficiency in all countries, all over the world, to save their own peoples." Ed Deak.

If you, or better yet, even your community or a part thereof can grow your own food supply, (In empty lots or wherever) and maintain your own basic needs, the coming crisis will be mitigated... and "the people" more independent of capitalist systems and their response inabilities or unwillingness.

Which is the problem with waiting for The State or the capitalist leadership to take the initiative of course. A long period of history, actually beginning after WW1, but really getting going after WW2, went on in this country to outlaw and wean people away from growing their own backyard chickens or pork etc, or weaning them off their vegetable patches... and into the emerging corporate supermarkets. (Over which period the old skills were gradually lost.) They are not about to reverse what they have already achieved in their own "corporate" interests. Their "free market" is already shrinking fast of available consumer cash. (The same goes for many other self-sufficiency needs, such as transport etc.)

Ed Desk is entirely correct, BUT "the people" are going to have to begin to organize themselves "politically" as well, to challenge the ruling system, its power and the economic share it syphons off, AND to begin to build their own, "the people's" self reliance, individually and as communities.

continued next post...

Self Sufficiency II

from previous post....

Folks need to begin to move away from capitalism, its power structures and hold on their economies... the sooner the better. The author is correct here, and the evidence accumulating all around us.... the system is about to implode. But don't expect or wait for the State to intercede. The State is "theirs" too. Organize yourselves and act in your own collective/class/self interest.

Over the course of this, could it be begun, the "politics" of sweeping away the encumbrance of the status quo system would become obvious enough.... is already. And the people organized to do it.

Depends on what we call

Depends on what we call "private sector".

Some of us can remember when private industries were opening up in Canada by the thousands, making a great variety of products locally, there was no homelessness, a few soup kitchens, but no foodbanks for people who have "jobs", people could afford to buy homes and governments had no debts to speak of.

When Wacky Bennett shot a flaming arrow into a stack of papers on a raft on Lake Okanagan, declaring BC debt free.

Of course, the arrow didn't work, and a diver had to swim out to set the pile on fire and there were still a few "contingent liabilities", but nothing like what we and Canada has now , under the real wealth creating capitalist/globalizers, praying for more "foreign investment" otherwise known as the sale of the country.

When there were hundreds of logging and lumber companies and sawmills, all over BC and the industry employed almost 100,000 ?????????????

What happened under the present system? What have we gained here, or anywhere on Earth, under the present, criminal economic system?

What's the difference between capitalist and communist collectivization, except the methods ?

Why have the world's biggest capitalists found their real homes and brothers in communist China and are now collectively stripping and enslaving the world ?

It was Lady Thatcher who started Britain down the road of inflation and revolts, that were unimaginable when we were living there under Attlee and even Churchill.

A B52 just flew over, probably the third this morning alone. Can the US afford to have these murder machines flying over our heads every day at thousands of dollars per hour? And for what ? What are they practicing to bomb ? The factories of the US multinationals in China to protect "free enterprise", while Americans, who used to work in those factories are losing their homes ?

Ed Deak.

"Ann Rand...Where are you??"

She is dead, having spent the last years of her life taking government welfare after her individualistic "friends" abandoned her.

Ed Deeks is wrong about money, too. He should read some MMT blogs and learn where it came from and why it only works if it is itself free of commodity value. Start here: http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2011/06/modern-money-theory-primer-on.html

Warning: actual thought required.

"The European problem is Socialism"

Really? Because I think there is a pretty clear consensus that the financial crisis and the fall out that ensued was the result of a capitalist ponzi scheme, an inside job. Or is this just a coincidence?

And seriously, who quotes Thatcher as "Lady Thatcher?" Thatcher's demented ideology was the worst thing to happen to England. Her economic policies have become laughable at best.

Greece created its own misery

A perfect example of how corrupt politicians and uninvolved public can ruin a country. The Greek government lied to the European union deliberatley hiding their monetary standings and now they are expecting the rest of the countries (read Germany) to pull them out of their own trouble - pulling down or affecting other countries in the process.

Greece should be kicked out of the European union and should deal with their own internal mess on their own. They created it by evading taxation on every level. Corruption is a huge problem in Greece and the only way to fix it is if they wake up and start acting as responsible adults. Their problem is deeply cultural as they don't trust each other. How can you build a stable economy and society on that?

Sooke - I don't think public sector becoming the largest in the country is the problem. The problem is that public sector is built on corruption and lies and favours. That is not public sector, that is corruption and self interest. Juvenile behaviour.

In my opinion socialism or democracy requires mature, honest and responsible adults. Something you can see in Austria, Germany, Sweden and some other European countries. Greece's reckless behaviour is a good example how a country ruins itself.

Perhaps this should be a wake up call for Canada's public. We are on the road of destruction unless people start becoming more involved in politics and realize that WE shape our future not the politicians. There are more of us then political leaders and the more united people become the more power we have in directing and shaping our and our children's future.

As you stated in this article - Europe is way ahead on environmental policies and becoming more sustainable. Solar panels and wind power becoming increasingly visible and that is the way to go. Germany is way ahead of most of the countries and Canada could learn a thing or two from the Germans.

Thank you. I think this was a great article.

Youth unemployment ...

... should be a serious concern in most countries. But I don't think that will be unless young people will take their nose out of their ipads and ipods and start claiming their rightful place in society.

If I look at the political leaders in Canada, US and other countries - I see a lot of menopausal men and women in their 50s and 60s - baby boomers. But where are the young people? They have no voice in politics and therefore I don't think they can shape this society to benefit them.

The way I see it is that baby boomers think about themselves and if I look at many of Canada's 'policies' it helps the baby boomers and leaves everyone out.

I think there is a need in youth uprising - riot is not the way.

Young people need to be more involved and they need to claim their space in society. Right now I think they are the stepping stones for the older generation so the boomers can have even more wealth.

The sole purpose of money is

The sole purpose of money is the lincencing of the control of energy.

Thew present problem is that money has become a "theory" for control, losing all connections with realities.

In short, money now is a racket to enslave. The world should be, and finally may be begginning to realize that theories are leading it to enslavement and destruction.

Like when the padres waved their crosses to the South American natives, and showed them the Pope's declaration, giving them to Spain and Portugal, licencing the Coquistadores to move in and slaughter them by the thousands.

Now they save on the paper, for the sake of economic efficiency, and only show them computer figures, which their governments consider enough for collectivization and mass murder by starvation.

Ed Deak.

The Capitalist solution

The capitalist solution is always a change of heart. Its the subjective that needs to change, not the objective. And this argument has been used again and again and nothing ever changes because capitalism is rotten to the core. A revolutionary solution is one where the whole system needs to change to benefit everyone. Now that is an objective. I still believe the communist hypothesis is the only viable solution. I'm not talking about 20th century communism/fascism (a total failure), I'm talking about the communist hypothesis.

doesn't surprise me

Does any of this surprise anyone? I'm going to Greece in October, I can hardly wait ... maybe I'll learn more about civil disobedience than I learned in the "60s.

Small Enterprise Idealized...

As much as I often, on most issues, agree with Ed Deak, here in his "ideological" treatise :-) on the role of small enterprise, he gets it wrong quite seriously. In my view. The economic early state of "small enterprises" in this country, and indeed everywhere, was first, not quite the "ideal" time he tends to portray it.

The state of many "relatively" smaller enterprises in the rear view mirror, is certainly seen by some as a kind of hay day. Tending to be forgotten is the often brutal competition for market share that went on then no less, and the poverty of the working and not working masses in that early model capitalism. (Mine and many other folks fleeing from it in Europe, then of course, more or less precisely re-creating the condition here.)

Folks then were for sure, more conditioned to a lower level of existence materially, but even by that standard, the mass of working class folks were in fact poor, and powerless in the also prevailing absence of a right to collectively organize. Indeed there were rigid enforcement of laws against unions... which also prevailed in this time. (Though many worker groups hid behind the facade of benevolent self-help "lodges" and other forms of secret organization.)

And some out there yet, may remember the early days of many smaller logging and sawmill operations and camps, and the beatings and killing by goons of workers who dared talk union on the job etc. Ginger Goodwin here in BC. Joe Hill in the US. And others. (The old time communists and socialists of these days, whom led these early attempts to organize workers in the wood industry for example, knew well and wrote of this forgotten history. With this literature still out there in marginal "radical" book shops.)

But what Ed most seems to slide over is, that it was precisely this "many smaller enterprises" period of capitalism, which not only he tends to idealize in hindsight, but which set up the competitive dynamic so intrinsic to early capitalism, that later results in the emergence out of that condition, of larger and larger "corporate" enterprises. Which grows precisely out of this state of relatively smaller scale "private enterprise".

Even were it possible to turn back to this "idealized" state of the "petite bourgeois", small business mindset, there is no way of arresting it permanently in such a state of idealized existence. The old dynamic of competition that comes with "private enterprise" would but re-emerge as well, leading back precisely to here in another time... to collapsing globalized corporate capitalism.

continued next post...

small Enterprise Capitalism Idealized...

from previous post...

No. In my view, certainly the working masses need to finally break entirely with capitalism itself, (as much as there may also be a continued place for small mom and pop shop enterprise) also breaking with small business delusions and the economic conditions out of which modern corporate capitalism arose. This dynamic needs to be finally moved away from entirely, and in the direction of a more solidly and more collectively "co-operative", as opposed to "competitive" economic and enterprise model dynamic.

Only such a new premise development finally achieved holds out the possibility of, over time, gradually molding and shaping a "new man/woman", with new attitudes of their interest, committed not only to self and eschewing narrow "market self-interest", but in its place, to a sense of shared community and the well-being and equality of the whole, including the planet which really sustains us all.

The small business/enterprise view of the economic and social interest needs to come to be seen as "so yesterday". :-) My view. :-)

Blake

"I still believe the communist hypothesis is the only viable solution. I'm not talking about 20th century communism/fascism (a total failure), I'm talking about the communist hypothesis." Blake.

I hear you Blake. And I agree.

Having experienced all form

Having experienced all form of ideologies, I would like to know what the real communist hypothesis is supposed to be about ?

E.g. in Hungary all homes and businesses were nationalized.

Everything went downhill, no repairs were made, no services, everything fell apart. So the government resold the houses to the owners, and allowed shops up to 4 employees, because people will look after their own properties.

I'm driving a 1980 truck now, while painting thousands of dollars worth of pictures to be given away the artist owned gallery in Williams Lake, suffering because of government cuts.

The last time we had a holiday was 3 days of camping in Osoyoos in 1968. Otherwise, it was always 12 hour, 7 day workweeks. I can't do 12 hours of physical work at 84, but we're always busy doing, making, building, painting something.

If our ranch, or workshops had been, or would be nationalized, I wouldn't lift a finger after working hours. Nor does anybody else in slave labour countries.

Farmers work their lands and produce on literally worthless soil, but now agribiz and starvation took over, causing huge problems all over the world.

There have to be large and small enterprises, depending on the products. The exploitation of people can be solved with strict laws and protection.

When I was in the custom furniture business in Vancouver, for 22 years, we all knew each other, borrowed tools, materials and even warned each other of crook customers. In short, we cooperated, which is the most efficient form of economics.

Furniture is one thing that should be made by human hands for material efficiency and psychological reasons, for the makers and customers. When I look at the prize homes on TV, the massproduced garbage turns my stomach and is a waste of precious resources.

The problem with large, automated production, unless it is absolutely necessary for real human reasons, is, that it replaces 1/2 hp. of human energy with 10 or 100 hp of electric or oil based and the world simply can not afford it.

Some of us are born to become makers. When I became a cabinetmaker, my Mother was horrified :"My son a tradesman !!! with your education!"

Well, often, when I was installing something in the fanciest highrise offices of top executives, I thought "If I were forced to work in this joint, I would throw a chair through the window and go after it."

Can't think of anything more horrible than working in an office and in my later years, in any crowded place. Just wanted to be alone, with the occasional help.

Once again, the textbook definition of economics is "The science for the management and distribution of scarce resources".

The science part is a bad joke, but to me "distribution of scarce resources" also means the best use of human talents, not tied down by idiotic theories, ideologies, or values defined in gambling casinos, but based on logic.

Ed Deak.

Capitalism is just getting revved up.. ohoh

Great documentary, "The People's Republic of Capitalism":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65SMAQpsMRA

Only one problem...

...we have socialism now, and it isn't working. We have governments telling us not only to compost on pain of punishment but also when to burn garden waste, what lightbulbs to use and what taxes to pay.

In fact, it is not capitalism in crisis in "developed" economies, because we are now so very far removed from real capitalism most people no longer know what it is. Indeed, they're afraid of it.

It's the redistributionist state that has run out of other people's money. The sovereign credit cards of nation-states are being cancelled. They can't borrow any more. It's not the end of the capitalist system, but of socialism.

Wait aand see: this "crisis of capitalism" will recur again and again, more and more frequently and with greater and greater severity...

An example of the communist

An example of the communist hypothesis can be seen in the political event of BC's recent history: the HST referendum. The state is determined to shift a large portion of tax burden from the rich to the poor. We see a mass action that opposes state coercion in the name of egalitarian justice. Though very small and rudimentary, this is the idea of equality, an historical event that holds truth and justice. Communism is an idea, not a state sponsored program. Lets not forget this.

The worst case of socialism

The worst case of socialism is on our highways, where people must have all kinds of licences and permits, proving that they can drive and their vehicles are , at least supposed to be safe.

Then we have the disgusting socialist racket of the same laws covering all sizes of vehicles, with the large ones not even permitted to push, or force, others off the roads showing their efficiency of wealth creating free enterprise.

The worst case of godless socialism is the campaign against drunk drivers who are not only raising the GDP with their monies spent on drinking, but even more when they cause accidents, jacking the GDP even more with expenses on repairs, new vehicles, and especially the really wealth creating GDP of funeral costs of the victims.

Ask any good neoclassical market economist: The more disasters and accidents we have the higher the GDP benefits.

Ed Deak.

8 Points

8 Points to Start With From Alain Badiou

Point 1. Assume that all workers labouring here belong here, and must be treated on a basis of equality, and respected accordingly — indeed honoured — especially workers of foreign origin.

Point 2. Art as creation, whatever its epoch and nationality, is superior to culture as consumption, no matter how contemporary.

Point 3. Science, which is inherently free, is absolutely superior to technology, even and especially when the technology is profitable.

Point 4. Love must be reinvented (what we can call the ‘Rimbaud point’), but also quite simply defended.

Point 5. Any sick person who asks for a doctor to treat them should be examined and treated as well as possible, in the present conditions of medicine as the doctor understands these, and unconditionally with respect to age, nationality, ‘culture’, administrative status or financial resources (this is the Hippocratic point).

Point 6. Any process that is intended to serve as a fragment of a politics of emancipation must be held superior to any managerial necessity.

Point 7. A newspaper that belongs to rich managers does not have to be read by someone who is neither a manager nor rich.

Point 8. There is only one world.

What's Capitalism Got To Do With It?

I'm astonished that anyone would even think, let alone argue, that the impending catastrophes for Greece and, likely all the welfare states in Europe, have anything to do with Capitalism.
For the last fifty years or so a majority of the western democracies frequently governed on the basis of continuously expanding populations that would happily finance the welfare programs for the older in those societies.
That is not Capitalism at work.

To make matters worse, the European countries have to, as a brilliant observer noted, "import the babies they can't be bothered having" from North Africa. These people are not taking kindly to supporting people they don't know and who don't particularly like them.

Some of you might now understand why S Harper wants Canada to be an attractive place for the disenchanted young ambitious entrepreneurs from all these countries in decay.

Greece & Defence Spending.

from vern huffman's post:

"Greece and spending"

"I seem to recall that just before the economic crsis, Greece shelled out something like 16 billion Euros on weapons spending."

Yes, it is not talked about much, as Germany made out big by selling four modern submarines to Greece. Greece did not need them, they added hugely to the Greek debt. It shows German hypocrisy, willing to lend the Greeks anything; as long as they buy worthless German goods.

The German economy depends on this exporting. They sell their products as though they were made in Germany, whereas they are rally made in Mexico or Tennesee.

Corman

"I'm astonished that anyone would even think, let alone argue, that the impending catastrophes for Greece and, likely all the welfare states in Europe, have anything to do with Capitalism."

The problem is blamed on rampant tax evasion according to Reuters. Isn't tax evasion one of the corner stones of capitalism?

On Having Lived Under All Ideologies I

First, I think my friend Fait makes the classic error, which even many "Communists" made, and may still make in some quarters, of assuming that the "East European" experience was in fact "communism".

For myself, I assume that the Russian Revolution to overthrow the Czar, Emperor Nicholas of feudalist Russia, started from a desperate need and the best of intentions. Communists, socialists and anarchists (and others) carried through that revolution... to the completion of the overthrow of Russian feudalism. (As had occurred first in 18th Century England, and shortly thereafter across Europe, establishing "capitalism" more or less everywhere in the then "modern" world.)

Lenin, who, in my opinion, made many early mistakes, especially around the issues of "centralism" and what was called "the dictatorship of the proletariat" (but another story), early recognized that it was not possible to carry through a "communist revolution" in the backward conditions of still feudal Russia, embarked upon, in fact, the building of a kind of "capitalism" in Russia, even calling it that, to create the modern economic base for the building of later "socialism". (Much the reality as China is now also embarked upon.)

Keeping in mind, though even "Communists" came to think he was wrong, that it was always Marx's view that the building of socialism and later communism presumed the basis of an "advanced capitalist society". (Capitalism "modernizes" and "organizes" the economy and the working masses.)

Finally however, Lenin came to understand that in the conditions of emerging out of feudalism in Russia, it was first necessary to pass through the "competitive" stage of building capitalism in Russia. (Which he had himself earlier thought, that Marx was wrong, and "could" occur by leaping directly over capitalism into socialism, from feudalism and colonialism. Finally discovering that he was, in fact, wrong. Though I cannot recall if he ever actually admitted it.:-)

In any case, in the midst of this process, Lenin dies (it is thought from the complications of a poison bullet he took, over the course of the Russian Revolution.) Who ultimately replaces him, though Lenin had expressed concerns about him, was Joseph Stalin.

Now, in my own and many another opinion of course, it is Stalin who entirely derails the Russian Revolution and its result, leading to the horror show of the post Lenin times, the lead up to WW2 and beyond in Europe. (The Communists, socialists and anarchists who actually led and carried out the Russian Revolution, were in fact Stalin's first victims, in the "purges" of the Party characteristic of his time. Later across Russian society.)

continued next post...

On Having Lived Under All Ideologies II

from previous post...

There are many reasons for Stalin of course, particular to Russian history and later Mao in Chinese history. But suffice it to say, the result was a kind of anti-democratic, highly centralized State Capitalism, which when it finally collapsed, saw Party bosses and others assuming the same role as the traditionally evolved capitalists of the West.

It turns out that Marx was correct, in my view. Communism is only possible upon a prerequisite advanced capitalism basis. Communism arises out of advanced capitalism, not declining feudalism... such as existed in Russia and China. Everyone, more or less, has to pass through the fire of capitalism first.

The "socialism" of Russia and China was attempted via a "dictatorship of the proletariat" narrowly interpreted , that in reality was a "dictatorship over the entire people, including the working class". It ultimately failed... of course.

In my view, the ruling capitalist class will in the end indeed need to be suppressed, more or less, depending on country by country circumstances, in order to build socialism leading to communism. For the mass of the citizenry however, the working class, there must be "absolute and direct democracy", equality, and a co-operative economic order.

Which is the "rough" of it, Ed. Again, just my view. If you want more, I am prepared to give my understanding of it. :-)

And I know very well what you went through, my friend. :-)

Blake

You stated:"The problem is blamed on rampant tax evasion according to Reuters. Isn't tax evasion one of the corner stones of capitalism?"

I think quite the contrary. Capitalists factor in the tax consequences of their prosperous endeavors. When I was a young man I was impressed with the attitude of a very successful man who actually included in his project budgets a factor of 50% for taxes. (that was a quite a few years ago)

It was, for him, a cost of doing business. Nothing to avoid.

My experience is that the real tax cheats, such as in Greece are the socialists, not the capitalists.

Public Money

quote for the article:

"It sounded like utopia. Politically, E.U. nations had acknowledged climate change and were implementing renewable energy policies that drove solar panel installations and wind farms."

Is this where we should be spending our tax dollars, or should it be private investors risking their own money?

Obama invested $535 million in Solyndra, solar panels.

http://www.mercurynews.com/fremont/ci_18806460

"The month of August was hard on US solar makers. Evergreen Solar closed its doors a few weeks ago, followed by privately held and Intel Corp.-supported (NASDAQ: INTC) SpectraWatt, Inc. a few days later. Yesterday Solyndra LLC sent 1,100 people home for good, unless and until the company can emerge from a Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing.

Read more: Another Government-Backed Solar Player Dies (INTC, FSLR, TSL, STP, JASO, YGE, LDK) - 24/7 Wall St. http://247wallst.com/2011/09/01/another-government-backed-solar-player-dies-intc-fslr-tsl-stp-jaso-yge-ldk/#ixzz1Wkr3Fd6E
"

Corman

Then answer me this: why are we continuously being informed that corporations and big businesses must have reduced taxes to entice them to our country? The capitalist answer to these problems is that the rich must get richer and the poor must get poorer. Blaming socialist programs is the same as blaming the victim.

Limits to Economic Growth

...Of the Public Sector!

"40 per cent of Greece's GDP results from the public sector. "

Once again, is this where you/we want our government to spending our money in a risky way with subsidies to corporations?

"In the wake of the 2008 financial crisis, the Spanish government drastically cut its subsidies for solar power and capped future increases in capacity at 500 MW per year, with effects upon the industry worldwide. "The solar industry in 2009 has been undermined by [a] collapse in demand due to the decision by Spain," according to Henning Wicht, a solar-power analyst.[6] In 2010, the Spanish government went further, retroactively cutting subsidies for existing solar projects, aiming to save several billion euro it owed.[3][14] According to the Photovoltaic Industry Association, several hundred photovoltaic plant operators may face bankruptcy.[15] Phil Dominy of Ernst & Young, comparing the feed-in tariff reductions in Germany and Italy, said "Spain stands out as an example of how not to do it."[16] As a result, a Spanish association of solar power producers has announced its intention to go to court over the government’s plans to cap solar subsidies."

Blake

If we could entice Yahoo with thier $150k average salary to bring some of their business/employees to BC would we gain if we offered the company zero income taxes?

And, if we said to them that, wait a second, you'll still have to pay a start up tax of 7% for the PST. Would it make sense to exempt them from that silly tax if it meant that they would come?

Jerry.....The biggest

Jerry.....The biggest killers in history have been the various religions, claiming to represent love and God's wishes, while smashing the heads of babies against rocks to "save their immortal souls", now replaced by ideologies, where the most beautiful theories can be distorted into crime waves and mass murder.

I have to admit my prejudice against communism, or if you like the name, or word communism, that has been misused and can be misused, as all other ideologies have been and are, by crooks.

My point is why take the chance ?

My Mother was gangraped by alleged communists, my grandparents died of the effects of starvation under communism, some of my friends have been arrested and never seen again, because they were social democrats.

We found our sister machinegun squad with their throats cut by Soviet soldiers in the woods.

The principal of my highschool and his elder son were arrested and never seen again. The new principal sent a message to my mother that if they catch me I'll be on the first train to a gulag in Siberia. I was an 18 year old schoolboy, without any political involvement, apart from having been in the army for 6 months and wounded.

They didn't catch me,so they arrested and tortured my mother 4 times, trying to find out how I got to England ?

My uncle was jailed for 15 years for having been in an anti communist uprising as a 20 year old 26 years before. He never fired a gun. 22 millions have been reported killed in Stalin's and 25 million in Mao's death camps, beating Hitler's 16 million.

All in the sacred name and ideology of communism.

As far Marx is concerned, he may have been correct on many points, but so were Hitler and Attila the Hun. In his private life Marx was an irresponsible, dirty pig, who let his children starve, living off handouts, while he was sitting in the British Museum and trying to get into the pants of the wives of his followers.

I think, ideologies have ran their courses and what we need is an economic system based on physical realities and democracy.

The defeat of the HST was the action of democracy and not of communism, where people were permitted to vote for candidates appointed by the party, in the name of their democratic freedoms.

Sorry friend, but I'm tired of theories, because I have seen how they can be twisted into crimes, while pounding the same beautiful scriptures.

As the capitalist are doing now, collectivizing and enslaving the world.

Just watched a news item, where 13 super expensive dream cars, worth $2. million, were impounded by the RCMP, for racing at over 200 km/hr. on the highway.

The drivers all Chinese kids, 18 to 21, most likely the dropped off children of mainland Chinese parents, who not too long ago were waving Mao's Little Red Book. So, what are they communists, or capitalists, or whatever gives them power and riches ?

Ed Deak.

Will Europe be the first to Evolve?

What a great string this is.

Perhaps we are witnessing the oldest society that has finally decided it wishes to evolve as a thinking human species.

In the words of David Suzuki, our contemporary obsessions with economics is a bit like the medieval obsessions with witchcraft.

I love some of Ed's and Blake's comments - thoughtful and thought-provoking! I always felt this unrest was coming as the rotten fruits of the greed-driven policies of the Thatcher/Reagan era finally came back to bite us.

Now what do we do. the ruling class has gotten use to keeping all of the money through their exploitive ways. How can we put the air back into the balloon?

Perhaps by learning another way to live? Or are these so-called leaders just going to tell them all to eat cake? We all know how that could get bloody!

Tired of the Same old Agruments from the Right

Does anyone ever notice that every time we see problems in a socialist country, the rabid right-wing capitalists come out of their troll holes and spout a bunch of I told you so's

Does anyone ever notice that every time we see problems in a socialist country, the rabid right-wing capitalists come out of their troll holes and spout a bunch of I told you so's

Forgetting of course that the world's current strongest and fastest growing economies have socialist leanings ... Denmark, Sweden, Germany, Brazil and yes CHINA! The latter being a truly bastardized and prostituted version of both.

This is not really about economics thought is it? I don't see that way anyway. I see it as a way to look at a era of broken ideals and reinvent a socially sustainable way to live - sans the ever present emphasis on finance!

fueling the fears

A word from the man the world's mightiest military powers have been trying to kill

"Recollections of My Life", written by Col. Muammar Gaddafi, April 8, 2011, excerpts:

Now, I am under attack by the biggest force in military history, my little African son, Obama wants to kill me, to take away the freedom of our country, to take away our free housing, our free medicine, our free education, our free food, and replace it with American style thievery, called "capitalism," but all of us in the Third World know what that means, it means corporations run the countries, run the world, and the people suffer, so, there is no alternative for me, I must make my stand, and if Allah wishes, I shall die by following his path, the path that has made our country rich with farmland, with food and health, and even allowed us to help our African and Arab brothers and sisters to work here with us ... I do not wish to die, but if it comes to that, to save this land, my people, all the thousands who are all my children, then so be it. ... In the West, some have called me "mad", "crazy". They know the truth but continue to lie, they know that our land is independent and free, not in the colonial grip.

http://killinghope.org/bblum6/aer97.html

My point from the above post was this ...

and I believe it buttresses with Jerry Munro's point about small business is that capitalism, whatever it may be, it bastardized with faux persons called corporations. These entities are removed from virtually all accountability for their heinous, self-serving acts, while overtaking government in a calculated fashion since at least the 1870s.

Fictional friends are the creations of madmen, yet we accept and are taught to idolize the puppet masters of these most vile ones.

Of course a common tactic of propagandists is to allege one's own vile acts as the crime's of your enemy, be they 'terrorism' or 'madness'.

Septic Tank Europe; take a good look. That's us in ten years

The best analysis I have heard on the west and our deficit financing is that it is all due to our narcissism. We want more than we need, more than we are prepared to pay for and more than we can afford. So we borrow against our own kid's future.

The present BC teacher's dispute is a case in point. The dispute disappeared over the summer vacation and only reappeared after they took their apocryphal summer leave. The
teachers don't even think there is anything unusual about that. Their way of life is so ingrained they didn't even stop to think about continuing negotiations over the summer.

What do we get for the money? Kids who can't read is what, and the teachers are still talking like it is 1974 and all they need to do is to take a bigger piece of the pie.

Not that teachers are any different from any other sector. The Vancouver RCMP can't lay a single charge in three months after the Stanley Cup Riots. David Hahn rakes in $1 million per year, twice the going rate. Jerry Berry the former City of Nanaimo manager rakes in $200,000 a year for two years for doing nothing but retire early and three of the top ten wages in BC last year were paid to people who had been fired.

Everybody wants more for doing less. We are a dysfunctional province in a dysfunctional country in a dysfunctional world.

What we need is a Mao-type cultural revolution where all the fat-cats are sent to work in the rice paddies. Otherwise, the system is collapsing anyway, so all anyone needs to do is wait. Whether it is by ballot or bullet, the system needs to change.

Sheesh. Yet another article

Sheesh. Yet another article that passes for "analysis". Just look at this one: "The only hope Greece has of recovering from its current debt spiral is a return to economic growth". Really? How do you know? Are you an expert, Justin? Or is your mind simply a victim of capitalist propaganda, unable to see outside the box?

Either you know where money comes from or you don't. If you don't, you're a pawn. This article is infected with typical false analysis that perpetuates the capitalist fantasy that is destroying people's lives and is laying waste to our planet.

Money is loaned into existence by private banks who simply tap a computer keyboard to produce it. Money is a number. Stop buying into the fantasy.

Why haven't the bankers been

Why haven't the bankers been rounded up and charged? I know Iceland has but some cowards are hiding in the UK.

Back to basics

cap·i·tal·ism/ ˈkapətlˌizəm/

Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production are privately owned and operated for profit, usually in competitive markets.[1]

_______________________

"Social market economy
Main article: Social market

A social market economy is a nominally free-market system where government intervention in price formation is kept to a minimum, but the state provides for moderate to extensive provision of social security, unemployment benefits and recognition of labor rights through national collective bargaining schemes. The social market is based on private ownership of businesses.

Anyone who wants to float alternate realities of "capitalism" for us will have to define what they mean before we all get hopelessly confused. Yes, there are other definitions, but the above pretty much defines where the West lives today.

John Corman

"If we could entice Yahoo with thier $150k average salary to bring some of their business/employees to BC would we gain if we offered the company zero income taxes?"

How would you propose we all pay for the social services we've all decided we want, when your newly-arrived Yahoo employees get income tax breaks up the ying-yang? What other method of taxation do you propose? The current much-reduced level of taxation on incomes over $105,000 since 2001 does not support all the things we've decided we wanted that capitalism and risk-taking won't pay for...

....like a new roof for a stadium, a highway to nowhere (the new name for Squamish), an Olympics that has failed at its primary task (to bring tourists on an ongoing basis to BC), and another convention centre that went way over budget at the behest of the capitalists running the government.

Looking forward to your excuse.

@ed deak

"I think, ideologies have ran their course"

Agreed.

The really interesting thing about youth right now is the deluge of information to which they are exposed. There is a much more natural way that they seem to reconcile ideas into their world views that some older folks might consider contradictory.

Ideologies are still there but like pop songs kids are simultaneously exposed to old and new and constantly newer. So I don't think it is possible for a single ideology to take hold as it has before. Ideas are constantly being brilliantly churned up, reinvented, undermined, thrown away and rediscovered.

What is the life span of an internet celebrity? Interesting times... fight for net neutrality.

@ Ed Deak... And About Capitalism as Socialism.

"I have to admit my prejudice against communism, or if you like the name, or word communism, that has been misused and can be misused, as all other ideologies have been and are, by crooks." Ed Deak

I understand entirely where you are coming from, my friend. But all words can be and are misused... even love, peace and social democracy. Still, you get more understanding from me, than might many another I know. :-)

And which is why, because I understand the real and justified basis of the mistrust and misunderstanding around the ideas of especially "communism", I tend not to generally talk about it, or to describe myself as one. Terms such as "communist" or even "social democrat", while they do serve a purpose no doubt, are really secondary, and the ideas they frame as easily served by other words. :-) (Though, if pressed, I will concede having come out of the "Communist" political and ideas experience, and am likely still one "of a sorts". Though I tend to be hostile to all "vanguard parties" and especially a highly centralized Big State... considering it an impediment and constant threat to democracy. And most often used against my working class, in both capitalist and what at least passes for "socialist/communist" countries.)

There is much good discussion here though, and as always, no less from yourself. It is always a pleasure to discuss and even disagree with you on some ideas or "ideological" points. :-) That said, I find that I have more in common with yourself, in many important regards, than certainly many others here.

And you know the discussion is good and fruitful when... it draws out the right wing trolls hurling their claims that corporate capitalism is socialism in fact. About which they are not at least 100% wrong... given that it is often that corporations use the social democratic state themselves, as sources of public purse largess (welfare), and to underwrite and pay for their worst gambling debts in the Casinos of Capitalism. The right wing corporate state is indeed often used to save capitalism from itself (and turn back revolution against it).

Except of course, it is socialism for the Super Rich, and stand alone laissez faire capitalism for the rest of us in the working class. Which folks in these times are beginning to catch onto.

Jerry.... The most and worst

Jerry.... The most and worst way disused word, in any language and through history is "freedom".

All sides in WW2 have fought for "freedom", while killing 65 million.

The "freedom of religion" and "God's words, or will" have been killing people since the beginning of history.

"Creation" is another one, "wealth creation" in our time.

Ed Deak.

Cynic

"What's the matter, zalm? Did I poke your bubble? Calling me a wingnut says more about you than about me."

Start at the top, birdbrain. One had to read through kreditanstalt and John Corman long before we got to you, and I'd already lost my lunch after Corman's "anal-ysis".

No, you're not a wingnut, you just can't read. go back to the top and read it through. I'm sure you'll find your proper place in the scheme of things soon. And get that course, will you?

Nothing I read in that article by Justin seriously suggests that he believes Greece could cure its woes by going further into debt. And Justin isn't the only one. EVen the Economist doesn't believe Greece can cure its woes with more debt.

If you read that, you're sadly mistaken, and I can't help you understand the obvious if you won't look.

Has everyone forgotten?

Greece spent €15 billion hosting the Olympics. If debt spending could have cured Greece of its woes, that alone would have done it.

No, some workers made out like pirates, some businesses made out like pirates, and some politicians made out like pirates.

Everyone is walking the plank now. Capitalism is no panacaea, and when used wrongly, is a devastating atom bomb to a society.

Freedom

"The most and worst way disused word, in any language and through history is "freedom"." Ed Deak.

Amen, brother. :-) lol

Which may have something to do with "freedom" being a relative thing, to one's class, stage of life, where one lives even etc.

Which doesn't make "freedom" a nebulous thing nonetheless... from my perspective. :-)

A good day, brother. I trust you and the Mrs. are well.

Earth to Zalm

If we could attract a company like Yahoo with a few thousand people earning, on average, $150k, who we would tax, on average $40-45k wouldn't that be enough to pay their way and quite a few along with them?

Earth to Corman

You're out to lunch. The average salary at Yahoo isn't $150,000 - it's $114,312. Still nice, but no reason to drop corporate taxes that could be potentially worth a couple million $$$ a year.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Yahoo-Salaries-E5807.htm

The whole point is that we haven't attracted Yahoo. Nor anyone else of that calibre. We attracted a Microsoft call centre to Richmond - for all of two years before they left when they found out the few people who'd work for $9.25 an hour had such strong accents and poor English that they couldn't be properly used on their help desks. Are you gonna tell me now it was because of corporate taxes? Couldn't be because of personal taxes - they're lower here than they are in the US, especially California and New York.

Hell, look at our own home-grown talent - Electronic Arts! Despite moving some operations to Redwood City, it still has a significant presence here, yet the average salary is only $67,537. Is that the kind of big business you were thinking of? I doubt it.

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Electronic-Arts-Vancouver-Salaries-EI_IE1628.0,15_IL.16,25_IM972.htm

It's a race to the bottom, and you know it. As soon as BC drops its corporate taxes and makes individuals pay the whole thing, the next year Alberta drops its corporate tax and everyone moves there. On and on it goes til everything ends up in China or India and we're all serving each other hotdogs from our food carts.

Your bumptious hypothetical questions never work out. You need to come back to reality, John - it's getting tiresome doing the research that you refuse to do because you're too lazy or ignorant, as you attempt to prop up some airy-fairy edifice with your wild imagination.

Are you sure you don't work in academia? Fraser Valley "University", perhaps?

Besides

You never answered the question.

If "capitalism" won't pay for highways to nowhere, over-budget convention centres, sports stadiums (plural - wasn't it just a coulpe of years ago the Whitecaps were looking for a $105 million handout for a new stadium on the harbour?), trucks-only highways to move goods (NFPR), bridges (Port Mann), or gala spectacles like the Owe-limpics,...

...why the hell should the public take that flyer? Just like a kitchen renovation to sell your house, the benefits never come close to equalling any more than half the costs - not even in a hundred years.

But that's OK - I don't expect an answer from you. It's your standard M.O. to avoid discomfort and truth-telling wherever possible.

Zalm - Please answer the question

I asked a rather simply question - If we could entice Yahoo with their $150k average salary to bring some of their business/employees to BC would we gain if we offered the company zero income taxes?"

Then you are all over the map trying to avoid actually addressing the question.

The major draw back to this proposal is what would we do with our resident companies' who pay 27%+/-. That is the only negative.
That would have been a reasonable response but, your sixty or so lines of text are useless.

Did I read the word "ignorant" in one of your responses?

Already answered, John

Yahoo's average salary isn't $150,000 so there's no point in talking about your flight of fancy. It'll never happen no matter how much you might wish it. There's no addressing your questions because they aren't real.

...which means you're just trying to spin something, but because you're no good at it, we can't figure out what it is, so it doesn't fly.

Now that that's settled, it's time for you to sit down and answer the question - if capitalism and the private sector won't fund highways to ski resorts and convention centres and ice rinks and sports stadiums, why the hell should the public sector?