RE: Jack

Of course the Italians deserve it. They made it what it is - good and bad. And it is truly beautiful north to south, litter or no.

As for a country not being deserved by those who make it, umm... what about Canada? We may have less dog crap on the pavement (marginally less where I live than on the Via del Corso), but I suspect we have equal if not more in terms of other litter and pollution disasters.

Hearing about the Britannia Beach mines pollution into Howe Sound yesterday made my blood run cold. Just about the worst heavy metal pollution in North America for decades. Once again, Canada buries its disasters amongst its vastness.

And if the Canadians could learn just one thing from the Italians in terms of environmental intelligence, it should be the Italian style of eating -- eat what is local. Not shipped thousands of miles.

And I'll agree with SB, nice clothes. Hot men. And add - appalling television. Worse than ours. Thank you Silvio...

Almost all the clothes I bought in sunny countries I can't wear in Vancouver, let's put it that way. "Vancouver Dress Black" isn't quite a rule anymore but you still can't wear loud colours and brutal patterns and wild stuff and not get stared at (in another city, you WANT to get stared at; here, the stares aren't nice, maybe only cold, but not nice). I have a beautiful silk not-quite-satin maroon or dark wine shirt I bought in Thailand, formal in taste and would be fine on the nightlife in a major American city or beyond in the big wide world; but here it's "don't you have anything black?" or "what's with the purple?" and so on. Ordinary street clothes in New York can look like club clothes here (and that's in no small way due to the Italian influence there, come to think of it, especially in textiles and tailoring).

This is to Steve Burgess: partly what I'm saying is be prepared for fashion shock when you come back, and remember that anything flashy you buy over there is basically relegated to the Halloween costume drawer here. Unless this city loosens up its you-know-what....

And while you're in Istanbul, let me give you some food tips from a guy who's hung out in the Hippodrome area on more than a few occasions:

Right by where the Underground Palace is - the Byzantine Water Cistern at the end of Divan Yolu, just below the head of the Hippodrome below the Aya Sofya - there's a fairly quiet sidestreet; has a blue (now?) police station on the right and a restaurant called "Medusa" on the left. Check out the kavourma and especially their cacik, and there's a certain tomato-y salsa sort of thing I can't remember; maybe made with bell peppers. Good hangout for Turkish breakfast (olives, cheese, yogurt bread, coffee, fruit, sometimes sliced tomato in some places usually pretty spare).

Just above that on the straightaway of Divan Yolu that goes to the right from the Hippodrome, there's a famous (to Turks) place for Koefte, Turkish meatballs. But don't limit yourself; we found a sidestreet place somewhere between that area and the Yeni Cami/Spice Market (Golden Horn Bridge area) that had amazing, big, juicy koefte that reminded me of my Auntie Maude's meatballs; only more macho in texture (no bread, of course) and straight from the cow (probably was, in fact, considering halal).

Back to the Hippodrome: at the far end on the left, built into the walls of the Blue Mosque, the cafe with all the couches outside has good snacks; one of the nicest places I ever found to hang in all my travels, and the inside is spacious and roomy. Try the ladyfinger-type pastries; can't remember what they're called; sort of a flute filo stuffed with light meat and veggie mix.

The Museum of Heating and Lighting is in that area, facing the square between the Blue Mosque and Aya Sofya; not a government museum but interesting in its own way; worth a visit and you'll wish you could find one of those heaters in a market somewhere to ship home. And beware the peril of getting to the mosaics of the Byzantine Palace - a gauntlet of haliciliks - carpet-dealers, some of the snakiest I met (and I stayed and hung out with some, avert your eyes, and remember the more you demur, the more tea you have to drink....).

Speaking of haliciliks, back down by the Medusa and Underground Palace (Underwater Palace?) there's a carpet store called Memory Carpets and its proprietor is a very good friend and good guy named Eko. Tell him the guy who bought the Zanzana sent you, and that he should take care of you and show you around (he's the one who introduced me to the Medusa); ask him to take you to the late-night place where the taxi drivers hang out; it has great food.

I envy you, thinking of Istanbul's nightlife up towards the Istiklal Caddesi and Taksim; the area northeast from Taksim is very chic/riche in the daytime, not sure about at night. On Istiklal Caddesi (the Grande Rue de Pera) check out one of the upper-floor cafes with modern/traditional Turkish dancing and music, way above the big street cafes. Istanbul is a lesson in what a city SHOULD be for its citizens; and the music and the food and the people are amazing. If you can get into a concert at the Rumeli Hizari fortress above the Bosporus, do so...and make sure you go to the Prince's Islands; Buyukadar has some great fish eateries, but do the horse-carriage tour around the island.

Eat me some cacik at the Medusa (pronounced ja-jik, a thick cucumber-yogurt cold soup, same word as tzatziki but way thinner and eaten with a big spoon; great for brunch/lunch on a hot day), and please have some tea with Eko if you happen to find him.

myself:

That must sound awful for those of you who have heard about social conditions in the burgeoning city. What I mean here is the vitality, the opennness to public entertainment and fun, even in the shadow of the greatest of the mosques (where discretion is of course observed anyway). Walkable streets, neighbourhood life, late partying hours and open licensing of live music in establishments (it's expected, in fact) and not a half-bad transportation system; the Bosporus water ferries/taxis put Seabus to shame (and don't smell so much like plastic).

There's a boat run to a certain village at the far end of the main run up the Bosporus suburbs from Istanbul, can't remember its name; famous place because it's where the first imams came to pray in the heathen wilderness, drawing the other Turkish faithful to join them, so the story goes. But it's known for its fish; the place we ate at was upstairs somewhere in the little tourist - er, maybe traditional - village there; but make sure you catch the boat back or you're stuck overnight. Turks love fish, even though you hear about mutton; but the fish is expensive; but worth it (so long as you know where it was caught: I wouldn't buy one from someone on the Galata Bridge, for example, and I'd think twice at the Spice Market, which is the closest food market; though markets are strictly controlled, more or less anyway).

Hey Steve.
The italian flag is RED white and green.
Just like the leaf in the middle of the Canadian flag is not a a pine cone.

:)
marco

Cathryn...

well said.

Nevertheless, while travelling in Italy I always wondered why the Italians couldn't be more like the Germans.

There is an international joke I heard while in Italy...

Heaven is where..
The British are the policemen..
The French are the cooks..
The Italians are the lovers..
and the Swiss are the bankers.

Hell is where
The British are the cooks..
The French are the policemen..
The Italians are the bankers...
and the Swiss are the lovers