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'A Woman among Warlords'

Afghan author and firebrand Malalai Joya on Canada's mission, Obama's Nobel, dodging assassination, and more.

By Blake Sifton, 16 Nov 2009, TheTyee.ca

Malalai Joya

Joya was booted from parliament for opposing both the Taliban and Karzai's warlord allies.

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  • A Woman Among Warlords: The Extraordinary Story of an Afghan Who Dared to Raise Her Voice
  • Malalai Joya (author), Derrick O'Keefe (collaborator)
  • Scribner Book Company (2009)

Malalai Joya is the epitome of who Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan are supposed to be fighting to protect. She is an educated and empowered young woman who shed her burqa, spoke out against fundamentalism and rose to prominence when the Taliban were ousted in 2001. Yet while she detests the Taliban and the Afghan warlords, she is also a vocal opponent of the U.S. and NATO occupation of Afghanistan.

While her father fought in the mountains with the mujihadeen against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the early 1980s, Joya fled with her mother and siblings to refugee camps in Iran and Pakistan. When the Taliban seized control of Afghanistan in 1996, Joya did the unthinkable -- she returned to her country and set up a clandestine school for girls under the noses of the Islamists. Along with her underground activities came the ever-present risk of arrest and execution.

Taking advantage of the new freedoms offered by the Taliban's fall from power, Joya became the youngest person ever elected to Afghanistan's parliament in 2005. She immediately used her position to publicly denounce the warlordism she says is destroying her country. However, many of the warlords and drug traffickers Joya spoke out against were also her fellow MPs. In May 2007 she was suspended from parliament for offending them.

Joya's work entails considerable personal risk and she has already survived four assassination attempts. Urged by her supporters to go into exile abroad, she has refused to abandon her country in the face of fear.

She is the author of the new book A Woman Among Warlords and last weekend launched a cross-Canada speaking tour in Vancouver. Just before she traveled to B.C., I reached her at the New York hotel where she was registered under a fake name for security. Here is what she had to say...

On the Afghan presidential election mess:

"An election held under occupation and the influence of corruption and warlordism has no legitimacy at all. It is impossible for there to be a democratic election in Afghanistan right now.

"Hamid Karzai is a corrupt puppet who is betraying our people and Abdullah Abdullah was the preferred candidate of the warlords. Both of their policies are similar -- they both called the Taliban 'brothers.' They are both traitors."

On what most Afghans think about the election:

"Ordinary Afghans don't have security or even food to eat. They don't trust the candidates and often they hate them. It's hard for true Afghan democrats because elections are supposed to be a hallmark of democracy and we want to believe in them. In the lead up to the election Afghans had a saying. They said that whatever the result we would have, [it was] 'the same donkey with a new saddle.'"

On U.S. President Obama's Afghan policies:

"I was hopeful when Obama was elected but unfortunately when he came to power his message to my people was that there will be more war. He increased troop levels and wants to send even more soldiers to Afghanistan. This will only bring more conflict. It is impossible to bring democracy through military occupation and the barrel of a gun.

"His policies are quite similar to that of the Bush administration. His drone attacks in the border area with Pakistan are killing innocent civilians and they have killed hundreds of Afghan civilians with cluster bombs and white phosphorous. They even bomb our wedding parties.

"Despite all of this, somehow he received the Nobel Peace Prize. I don't understand how they could give it to a president who is pursuing wars in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan."

On what would happen if NATO pulled out of Afghanistan:

"We are stuck between two enemies -- the occupation forces killing innocent civilians, and the Taliban and warlords. Many people say that if the troops leave Afghanistan, civil war will happen. But we have a civil war now. As long as the U.S. and NATO are here, the civil war will continue because they are supporting the government and the warlords. If they end the occupation of my country then we, the true democrats of Afghanistan, will be fighting one enemy instead of two."

On the sacrifice of Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan:

"The United States, Canada and the other NATO countries are wasting their taxpayers' money and the blood of their soldiers to support a completely corrupt and illegitimate system.

"I am sorry for the Canadian families who have lost their sons in Afghanistan. The soldiers are themselves victims of their government's policies, just as our civilians are. Their families should raise their voices against the misguided policies of their governments... they must turn their sorrow into strength."

On how she would define global support for the people of Afghanistan:

"When I say that we don't want your soldiers I don't mean that we don't want your help. We are honoured to have the support and solidarity of democratic people in Canada and around the world.

"Please put pressure on your governments to change their policies and demonstrate in your cities to help end our occupation. No one's drones will bomb you and no one will shoot you.

"Moral support and humanitarian support will help us in the difficult and long struggle against the Taliban and the warlords. Support intellectuals and democratic-minded people of my country and support education in Afghanistan. Education, and especially women's education, is a key to democracy and our emancipation."

On the failure to effectively combat the Afghan opium trade and its impact on North American society:

"After eight years, the U.S. and NATO have failed so badly that now Afghanistan exports 93 per cent of the world's opium. In 2001, the Taliban almost destroyed the opium trade in Afghanistan. The Taliban! These uneducated, ignorant misogynists. It's unbelievable that a superpower along with 40 other countries cannot stop the opium trade but a medieval organization like the Taliban nearly succeeds.

"How many poor people do you have on your own streets? Yet the U.S. and Canada send millions to help warlords and drug dealers in Afghanistan. Support for corrupt warlords not only affects the people of my country -- it also allows more and more drugs to make their way onto the streets of Vancouver and destroy your youth as well."

On Pakistani involvement in Afghanistan and the repercussions for Pakistani civilians:

"Throughout our long years of war, the Pakistanis have had puppets in Afghanistan and they still do. The Pakistani intelligence supports the Afghan Taliban, and the madrasas along the border are essentially 'Taliban factories' where people are brainwashed to commit suicide bombings in Afghanistan. The U.S. works with the ISI [Inter-Services Intelligence], and the ISI supports the Afghan Taliban. They are playing cat-and-mouse with the terrorists.

"Now Obama fights a war with drones in the Pakistani border areas. It is the civilians of Pakistan who suffer. They are bombing the poorest and most backward cities of Pakistan."

On going into exile and fearing death:

"I am a woman and I refuse to stay silent. I document the crimes of the warlords, so they want to kill me. My life is always at risk. Even with bodyguards, I am not safe in the country NATO occupies under the banner of women's rights and democracy.

"My supporters abroad are worried, and many people tell me to leave Afghanistan. But I'm not any better than the other democratic people in my country who are dying. My blood is not more red then the blood of my people.

"Faced with so many assassination attempts, I have to imagine that one day they will succeed. But I do not fear death. I fear silence in the face of injustice. That is my message to democratic people around the world."

Malalai Joya's Canadian tour dates can be found here. [Tyee]

Blake Sifton is a Vancouver-based journalist with an international focus.

37 Comments:

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  • BC Mary

    2 years ago

    Blessings upon Malalai Joya's campaign

    Malalai Joya's words are the words we ought to be sending to Stephen Harper as he struggles to find new reasons for continuing to keep Canadian troops in Afghanistan.

  • dorothy

    2 years ago

    whaaat?

    This woman doesn't admire the Western powers. She isn't appreciative of everything we do for her country. She even calls Hamid Karzai and cohorts majorly corrupt in no uncertain terms. What's up? Why do I not see all the usual parties jumping to embrace this brave woman, who aspires to goddess status and surely will achieve it after the thugs eliminate her - why is no one rushing to her side and shouting 'sister! sister!'

    Oh, I forgot to read the rest...She also didn't like the Taliban, those crusaders, only used metaphorically of course, who are bent, if not hel-bent, to sock it to the cowboys and their entourage, as soon as they set foot on the green hills of Afghanistan, and sometimes before...

    SO, how can you also not like them, when your own dad was one of those on the receiving end of gross western injustice, which they were trying so hard to correct??

    I see why this woman does not get instant adulation here. She's almost 'getting it', but not quite. Falls short of REAL political insight. Too bad.

  • max von smartt

    2 years ago

    Blood for Oil

    The fight for democracy in Afghanistan is a smokescreen; what America and the West really want is control of the resources, namely gas and oil pipeline routes from the Caspian basin through the Khyber pass to Pakistani saltwater. The Taliban refused to deal. And let's not forget that 911 was an inside job and Osama a patsy. The whole war is a fraud.

  • Jerry Munro

    2 years ago

    Malalai...

    This is the woman I was speaking of a while back, whom I'd seen on CNN, so shocking the woman interviewer, and that Dorothy so quickly dismissed in the same thread. (Where here now, she seems to have done a sudden and complete turnaround, in her own convoluted way. :-) lol

    Women in this country, and the Empire homeland, who support our "brave troops" and government policy in Afghanistan, because they actually think it is all about liberating women, need to read this young Afghan woman. She sees the contradictions and cruel nuances in a way that many of these "relatively privileged" women, ignorant of the real history and circumstances of Afghanistan, do not, and seem unable.

    Malalai gets my respect. Her bravery is unparallelled.

    All foreign forces serving The Empire out of Afghanistan, NOW! (Before they are driven out at great wasted blood and treasure sacrifice anyway.)

  • Myvoice

    2 years ago

    Malalai

    Joya is one of those rare people in the world who will risk their own life and limb and creature comforts to do what she believes in and put other people first. And not just ANY other people - she could be fraternizing with elites but instead she is giving her all for the average poor oppressed Afghan. She has to put up with death threats, insults and scorn on an almost daily basis to accomplish what is almost an insurmountable (yet, hopefully not impossible) task of bringing rights to women and the average person. Even our own governments (Harper, etc) who enjoy a life of luxury and comparative safety do not want to lift a finger to help.. Let's see what we can do as average Canadians to influence our government to do something to aid Malalai's cause... even if only to pull our troops out of the country, and let the Afghans find their own strength and dignity to lead themselves where they feel they need to go...

  • thelaloblog

    2 years ago

    The Misogyny Brotherhood

    "The reality is that in the current Afghan government you can't swing a cat without hitting a woman-hating warlord. This is the group that appointed a fundamentalist judiciary that sends women to prison for adultery, which they commit during the act of getting raped. In the recent elections Karzai and his two warlord running mates ran on the slogan: Misogyny! It's not just for the Taliban anymore!"

    http://www.thelaloblog.com/1/post/2009/08/to-the-women-of-afghanistan-no-need-to-thank-me.html

  • soleprobe

    2 years ago

    “…drugs to make their way onto the streets of Vancouver.”

    Sadly this woman knows more about some of the real reasons behind this war than many Canadians.

    And just how does all that opium find its way all the way from Afghanistan to the streets of Vancouver? Well the answer to that question is right in front of our eyeballs. If one takes a stroll down to Main and Hastings where most of the Afghan heroin is distributed, you will also find one of the largest police departments in Vancouver smack-dab in the middle of all the drug trafficking.

    Hmmmm…. I wonder who brings in the drugs and sets up the gangs to distribute them?

    Of course every now and then their media will demonize one of their own (the Bacons) to facilitate the illusion of fighting the drug war.

    If all Canadians knew the real reasons why their sons and daughters and innocent Afghan civilians are getting blown to pieces this war might end in a heartbeat.

  • Okanagan Orchardist

    2 years ago

    Spread the word...

    You need to spread the word about the futility of using guns to bring about democracy. How foolish of Harper, Stockwell Day and other morons to follow the US lead in this. I hope Malalai Joya is able to avoid death until she gets people to listen.

  • mikev

    2 years ago

    we're doing it right, this time

    Posted by OilbertaRedTory over on The Hook:

    http://robwipond.com/?p=32

  • Waziland

    2 years ago

    Malalai is very similar to Warlords!

    I know Afghans, their culture, and their values. I believe that they are the victims of war, and due to the long war, there are many negative happenings in Afghanistan. However, I expect that every Afghan to appreciate the good things that Canadians and others are trying to do or have done for Afghans.
    Malalai as some other Afghan women and men is a voice of controversy, disillusion and abuse. If any of you noticed all she does is "yell, humiliate and swear while not having any idea how to handle the Afghan economic, politic, and social, and international policies. I do not think that she is helpful to Afghans at all. What is Malala’s achievement for the Afghan men and woman during her participation in Karzai Government? Absolutely, she achieved nothing for them, but she is a person of interest for certain groups and media. All she does during the session in Afghan Parliament that she is yelling at warlords and it should be considered very banal behaviour. I have no idea why I have to call behaviour like this bravery. She is the same thing like Mr. Abdulah Abdulah. Just look at her answers to the questions. She answers them with such simple thoughts, and she thinks that the Afghan Issue so easy to solve. In simple word “Malalai is a Third World demagogue entertaining Westerners and at the same benefiting from her controversies economically, socially and internationally.” If she is useful for Afghans, I want to see what she will do for Afghans, what are her plans, and how she can implement them.

  • catface

    2 years ago

    Dorothy, try reading before condemning

    Oh Dorothy, you are so typical of the ignorant canadian it makes me weep.
    A few answers to your questions and objections:

    "This woman doesn't admire the Western powers. "
    -- Who could possibly ‘admire’ the Western powers who are responsible for so much misery around the planet? Our whole lifestyle in the west is based on global oppression pillage, and extortion, via support of tyrannies and dictatorships that enable western corporate thievery of world wide resources.

    "She isn't appreciative of everything we do for her country."
    “Everything we do for her country”??!? What canadian soldiers are doing TO Malalai’s country is propping up misogynist warlords, going house to house in villages kicking down doors and terrorizing those inside, hauling inncocent young men off and handing them over to be tortured (by Americans or afghan police), calling in american or british aerial bombardments (the most cowardly soldiers in the world, bombing from miles away) that mostly blow women and children to bloody bits. Guess what Dorothy? I don’t appreciate western powers either – nor does anyone who has studied what they really do in the world.

    "She even calls Hamid Karzai and cohorts majorly corrupt in no uncertain terms. (etc.)"
    If you paid attention to anything outside the propaganda of our gov and corrupt mainstream media, you would know that a) Hamid Karzai and his cohorts ARE majorly corrupt in no uncertain terms, and b) that the ‘usual parties’ are rushing to Malalai’s side and embracing her as sister. As I and hundres of others did on Saturday night when she spoke in Vancouver.

    "SO, how can you also not like them, when your own dad was one of those on the receiving end of gross western injustice, which they were trying so hard to correct??"
    Dorothy, when one develops a consistent and mature view of justice, one grows to hate injustice equally no matter who is the perpetrator. All the male power structures in Afghanistan, whether Taliban, Northern Alliance, karzai and his cohorts, or Canadian military, are all brutalizing the Afghan people.

    "I see why this woman does not get instant adulation here. She's almost 'getting it', but not quite. Falls short of REAL political insight. Too bad."
    Dorothy, Malalai is widely respected here and around the world. Adulation is the drug of the idiots who watch to much reality and gossip TV.
    Sad that you yourself have so little insight, political or otherwise. It’s not a fatal condition though – try educating yourself a little, please.

    As for solutions, Malalai does propose a solution, the main solution, the only one that can open space to solve the many problems in Afghanistan - get the goddamn occupying armies of Nato out of Afghanistan. That means Canadian soldiers too.
    No good can be accomplished until that happens.
    Rick
    Richmond, bc

  • Jerry Munro

    2 years ago

    Catface...

    "...Malalai does propose a solution, the main solution, the only one that can open space to solve the many problems in Afghanistan - get the goddamn occupying armies of Nato out of Afghanistan. That means Canadian soldiers too."

    Right on, Catface. Always a pleasure to read somebody that can see through the fog of war and msm propaganda. EDITED. PLEASE REFRAIN FROM PERSONAL INSULTS OF OTHER POSTERS. -- TYEE MODERATOR

  • dorothy

    2 years ago

    What does it take

    To not have opinions assigned to me that I have never actually expressed?

    "..Where here now, she seems to have done a sudden and complete turnaround,.."

    uh-uh. I didn't say a word about agreeing with the woman, did I? I acknowledged her bravery, which is not up for discussion. But I do not agree with her outrage about the West's occupation of her country, when said country could not keep it together and gave shelter to people with all sorts of brutal aspirations directed at the West, some of them acted on in very spectacular ways. It is a good western tradition to follow the enemy home, and that is what happened.

    What I did point out was the unexpected in her not being immediately and enthustiastically greeted here by all the usual western-highhandedness-haters, and then I did conclude that this was likely because she equally slams the Taliban, which is not quite politically correct here. I understand that the word on the street is that we should 'understand' them, particularly when they fling acid in the faces of young girls who have the audacity to want to learn how to read. Or when they fix up 'roadside bombs' in their usual cowardly fashion, and blow other inhabitants of the planet to smithereens.

    So no, no 'turnaround' there. Sorry. Whether and in what form there should hnenceforth be western presence in that belaguered country is a complex and messy problem, which I don't think any brand of absolutism will answer in a purposeful way.

  • dorothy

    2 years ago

    Yippeee! I'm integrated!

    "Oh Dorothy, you are so typical of the ignorant canadian it makes me weep."

    I'm so glad I managed to reach out and touch a heart. That is why I write.

    Don't fash yourself about my questions. I'm good with an encyclopaedia. I've got one I bought at the grocery store when my kids were little, so they could learn, see.

    Is that the Cheshire cat from Wonderland?

  • Ahda

    2 years ago

    in response to Waziland comment

    These are some of the FACTS about this woman's contributions to her country. Beyond these, she has stood up for what she believes is justice and truth. I haven't done that recently - have you?

    * is a Member of the Afghan Parliament. Malalai won the second highest number of votes in the province.
    * She finished her education in Pakistan and began teaching literacy courses to other women at age 19.
    *After the Soviets left, Malalai Joya returned to Afghanistan in 1998 during the Taliban's reign. During that time she established an orphanage and health clinic, and was soon a vocal opponent of the Taliban. (from afghanwomensmission.org)

  • Brent200

    2 years ago

    Dorothy, While many

    Dorothy,

    While many Canadians condemn the war in Afghanistan, no one supports the Taliban. That is a conservative delusion.

    This is not 1968 and they are not the Viet Cong. Have you ever seen their banner at a Canadian rally?

  • Jeffrey J.

    2 years ago

    Ms. Joya Breathtaking

    Ms. Joya is a breathtaking, vibrant courageous voice, rising above the mediocrity of the Canadian and US elites, who babble on about nothing of meaning. As she says:

    "I am sorry for the Canadian families who have lost their sons in Afghanistan. The soldiers are themselves victims of their government's policies, just as our civilians are. Their families should raise their voices against the misguided policies of their governments... they must turn their sorrow into strength."

    Exactly what i would say about our own straining, intolerant governments, including Harper and Campbell, who preach (beg) to the elite, hoping for approval and vindication, without ever recognizing real independence when they see it.

    Thank you Blake Sifton for an amazing, powerful piece.

  • Waziland

    2 years ago

    Malalai an ordinary

    You guys portray Malalai Joya as a special individual to the world media. If you look at her legacy, there's nothing extraordinary about her. All she did is yelling at others in the Afghan Parliament in an extremely banal manner. Change does not happen over night. From her answers to all questions, one can see the inconsistency in her answers to all questions. She thinks that it is the responsibility of others to fix the Afghan Issue. I would tell her that it is you Afghans the victims of your own mentality. If vote counts, then Dostum (Warlord) had the highest number of votes all the time, and he will have it again because Afghans vote based on locality, ethnicity and tribe. The way you guys explain her legacy, then there are many Afghans (Thousands) who have done extraordinary jobs for the well being of Afghans. It is a game of women playing against men while expecting others to accept their own linear explanation. Joya is playing a game against overall Afghan sentiments while having no thoughts for real Afghan issues. What does she wants? What does she offer to solve the Afghan problem? How does she want to handle the Afghan Issues internationally? Lets the Westerners will leave Afghanistan, then what would happen? Lets Karzai is replaced, and then what is the alternative? Let’s believe that we wasted our soldier and money, then how Malalai Joya is becoming an elected member of Afghan Parliament, and is able to come to Canada to lecture us about democracy. Afghans should look into themselves and ask themselves what is wrong with them instead blaming others for their own miseries.

  • Waziland

    2 years ago

    Her Daddy Was Mujahid

    Building schools, clinics, orphanages, and traveling needs money, and it is too much money for an Afghan. It seems that she is getting financed by someone, like the Taliban are being financed for building madrassas and carrying their agenda. If we want to rebuild Afghanistan, we better strengthen the administrative apparatus of Afghanistan than individuals like Joya. By the way her daddy was a Mujahidin, she is saying, and then even her daddy was one of the culprits in the Afghan war.

  • Waziland

    2 years ago

    How old is she?

    How old is she?

  • dorothy

    2 years ago

    And that would be right-of-center Liberal

    "...no one supports the Taliban. That is a conservative delusion..."

    Really? Sounds good. If we act on the impulse of 'just getting our troops out of Afghanistan', no nuanced or considered approach, 'just get out', how do you imagine we are going to prevent the Taliban from moving right in? We can come up with all kinds of things that ought to have changed and made the government stronger, but the fact remains that we will essentially be asking the same powers to keep the Taliban in check, who proved before that they couldn't do so. So, I consider it hairsplitting rhetoric to say one is not in support of them, when what one is in support of will result in the same practical outcome.

  • Waziland

    2 years ago

    Think Globally!

    "Malalai was forced from the Afghan Parliament for calling the parliament a zoo full of animals." I would call this pure hysteria, enticement to insult and cultural abuse, but not bravery. If we have values, standards, and beliefs in a system, we should never allow expression in such a banal manner. Because of these words she receives a star’s welcome, being considered for Nobel Prize, and for some extraordinary awards and titles. The complexity of the Afghan Conflict gave birth to these individuals without substance. As result these individuals without substance do not contribute to the solution of Afghan issue, but they further deepen the Afghan crisis. Do you guys remember that the Western Media praised Afghan Warlords in the past, and recently during the Taliban reign? Even Bin Ladin was a Western Media Darling during the years when Malalai’s Daddy was fighting along side of Afghan Mujahidin. Now, it is the turn for Malalai Joya to replace Bin Ladin and Warlords as Western Media Darling. I am sure she will be everywhere, and she will talk the same thing with no specific goals. In regard to assassination attempts, there were many on Mr. Karzai, so forget the ordinary citizens. In regards to Afghan heroin trade, I would say it was never an easy task. Afghan economy is based on these crops, and once a solution is found, I am sure it would be replaced, but it will take sometime. The Taliban eliminated the heroin cultivation because of their mutual understanding and agreement with local communities, not by force. I hope that others will do the same. Please Joya give us specific idea how to bring stability, peace and prosperity to Afghanistan?

  • dorothy

    2 years ago

    Maybe a useful link

    Seems that others, who are closer to the issues than I by several scales of magnitude is thinking about it already...

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6920254.ece

  • mikev

    2 years ago

    dorothy

    "when they fix up 'roadside bombs' in their usual cowardly fashion"

    As opposed to dropping bombs from comfortable aircraft cockpits entirely out of harm's way? Or even better, using video game controllers to drop bombs from thousands of kilometers away using unmanned drones. Yeah, our bravery vs. their cowardice eh?

    http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/07/wargames/

    "how do you imagine we are going to prevent the Taliban from moving right in?"

    OBVIOUSLY, we have not, and we almost certainly will not. The sooner we accept this, the better for EVERYONE.

    Brent200, this is exactly like the Viet Cong. We consider Afghans better off dead than living under anything like Taliban rule. I'm not convinced that their surviving family members agree with us. Unfortunate collateral damage in our good hearted humanitarian mission - to kill everyone who resists us.

    General Rick Hillier: "We are the Canadian Forces, and our job is to be able to kill people."

    Thousands and thousands of innocent Afghani civilians have been killed by US and NATO forces. The country is still a mess, in many many ways worse than before the invasion. I should be proud?

  • dorothy

    2 years ago

    Please observe context and stay on topic

    "..As opposed to dropping bombs from comfortable aircraft cockpits entirely out of harm's way? Or even better, using video game controllers to drop bombs from thousands of kilometers away using unmanned drones. Yeah, our bravery vs. their cowardice eh?.."

    The issue here was not whose warriors were the most virtuous, but that some people here think the Taliban should be 'at the table', and that we should understand where they're coming from, and that somehow justifies what they're doing. I notice, by the way, that you did not include the acid-flinging in your neat comparison. Not straight dealing. It ain't credible talk if you leave half of it out.

    Who are the Taliban? They were not, in their origin, 'locals,' but rather a band composed of all kinds of nationalities hanging around parts of Afghanistan in the aftermath of the war with Russia, on a have-gun-will-travel basis.. They got kommissioned by Pakistani outfits to protect trade convoys through Afghnanistan. To that end, they were given funding and weapons by Pakistani agencies. So, in other words, as a major organization, they came into existence with a defined adversarial relationship to the Afghans. Then, they moved into the political relative vacuum and assumed absolute power, bolstered by religious fanaticism. They forced medieval totalitarianism on a people that had begun to move towards some modern and progressive values. Quite the little kings, they acted out their absolutist fantasies on defenseless women and poor Afghans, and did it with a vengeance.

    By now, they no doubt count many local people among their ranks, not due to conviction, but due to being the highest bidder for the guns. These people need food and so on. Who can blame them, etc.They nevertheless made a poor choice in the crowd they run with.

    In a pragmatic thinker's universe, things being what they are, the Taliban might have gained a place in the arrangement of peace, but they way they persist in trying to up the ante would seem to indicate they have no peaceful intentions, but are the same bully-boys they always were, and there seems to be no talking to them, it's their way or the highway.

    So, I don't know where the comparative evaluation of the gallantry or lack thereof of our own and other troops come in. Far as I know, they just do their job. They - and we - did not choose this war. The people 'over there' could not hold things together so they didn't spill over in an attack on our sort of people, like other nine-to-fivers, on this continent. What did you think we should have done? Sit and wait till more rubble piled up around ourt feet, and more dead people needed to be buried???

  • soleprobe

    2 years ago

    severely misinformed

    "... The people 'over there' could not hold things together so they didn't spill over in an attack on our sort of people, like other nine-to-fivers, on this continent."

    Dorothy, as I mentioned to you in a previous post: “…to turn off your TV set because you will continue to be programmed and severely misinformed.”

    Any discussions with you in regards to this subject are useless until you’ve gone through the necessary deprogramming.

    We all eventually will have to take the “red pill” but everyone in their own time: Some here have taken it while others have not. And many here (like mainstream media and many Tyee authors) are in the “blue pill” distribution business.

  • mikev

    2 years ago

    dorothy

    You brought it up, with an off hand remark about how they are cowards. Just trying to put it in perspective. I don't consider it cowardly for an Afghan to do anything that might even be considered resistance, considering the ridiculous amounts expensive hardware arrayed against them.

    OK, so girls have had acid thrown in their faces. Doctors here have been shot dead, and clinics bombed for performing abortions. It is considered hygenic to mutilate the the genitals of infant boys. Women there have to wear burkhas, women here are free to go without (as long as they keep their tops on, we can't have our children irreparably damaged by the sight of a nipple). Who will save *us* from *our* religious fanatic oppressors?

    If I see you stick your head up regurgitating the propaganda of our side as gospel, I get the urge to take you down a peg. "They are savage animals, we are right to slaughter them" - that doesn't sit well with me.

    Who are the taliban?

    http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/publication/18784/obamas_troops_in_movement_will_not_force_the_taleban_out.html

    The only leaders left in the country after the cold war was done with it, were religious leaders. The Taliban are Afghanis. They have many foreign volunteers, but it is an Afghan organization.

    They up the ante, we up the ante, until the original reason for invasion gets fuzzy, concentrate on revenge for the latest atrocity.

    Our troops are robots, they do what they are told or they go to the stockade. We can marvel at how well they do their jobs, but anyone's opinion of an individual soldier is irrelevant. Our leaders chose this war. Even if a few bad apples from our side commit war crimes, I would blame the leaders and not the individual killing machine put in an impossible situation.

    What I think we should have done is irrelevant, since the people in power at the time were right wing nuts who didn't have the time of day for anyone even remotely like me. But just for fun, I wouldn't have tried to force an oil pipeline through their country. I wouldn't have let the Northern Alliance be on my team, they deserved just as much as the Taleban got. I would have made an actual case for handing over any alleged 9-11 perpetrators, and made a public show of the negotiations. I would have gotten neighbouring countries much more involved in everything in the first place. I would have used the UN instead of NATO. Almost anything done at all differently would have been better.

    Above all, I would have realized that there could have been a 9-11 attack once a month since then, and western civilization would be pathetic to crumble from it. We aren't fighting for our lives, we are fighting an entirely blown out of all proportion police action.

  • lynn

    2 years ago

    Beyond endurance

    Quote:

    "An election held under occupation and the influence of corruption and warlordism has no legitimacy at all. It is impossible for there to be a democratic election in Afghanistan right now.

    "Hamid Karzai is a corrupt puppet who is betraying our people and Abdullah Abdullah was the preferred candidate of the warlords. Both of their policies are similar -- they both called the Taliban 'brothers.' They are both traitors."

    I find Malalai extraordinary not just in her bravery but in her generosity of spirit.

    She is not just speaking about Afghanistan, she is reaching out to the world.

    She is telling us about ourselves......

    About the intolerable and sadly common state of humankind these days...that of being caught between intolerable so-called "alternatives". When those alternatives are really just another face of the same tyranny.

    Her words in the above quote hold equally true about the warlords here.

    Influence. Corruption. Betrayal.

    Traitors on all sides.

    We, too, are a country at the mercy of corrupt puppets.

    We, too, are a country under occupation.

    We are just not saying it out loud.

    Nothing good can come from the dishonest actions of countries that are pretending they are something they clearly are not.

    To truly change the world our intentions must at least be honest ones.

    Malalai Joya is a woman who speaks to the necessity of honest intention.

    And that's a very brave and risky thing to do these days.

    It runs so counter to the way the world now actually operates.

  • KWD

    2 years ago

    way beyond endurance

    Lynn, you are absolutely bang on. There’s no doubt Malalai Joya is reaching out to the world. But I wonder who will listen and for how long.

    Joya’s story reminds me of the Sunera Thobani story of 2001. From what I read, Joya is Thobani on steroids, and unfortunately what is likely to happen to her effort to inform and educate a very ill informed world will likely be the same as happened to Thobani. Going into exile and living in fear of death will make it very difficult.

    The venom and hatred directed at Thobani was typical U$ neocon PR sabotage.

  • dorothy

    2 years ago

    mikev

    So, they’re not so bad, and even if they are, we’re no better. therefore, nobody is really to blame, it’s just the way things are. Or, no, no, that’s not right, for some reason, we’re more to blame than they are. All other things equal.

    Did I get that right?

    We ‘chose this war’, because we chose to take things seriously instead of just quarreling endlessly about the shape of the table. We should have used the UN, which is stacked with people who hate this end of the world as much as a lot of people here do. Not a good idea. Why would we not call on the partners in NATO, with whom we actually have an alliance and not just a debating club? Or no, our leaders chose the war, but then we chose the leaders. We are supposedly under the gun of religious fanatics, who will flog us cruelly for not voting the way they want. Or no, that is wrong. We should have free and secret ballots, but something must be askew, for we seem to not be voting the way everybody ostensibly would be better served with.

    Our troops are not people. They are mindless robots without a clue as to why they are there. While the Talibs and their friends are noble…no,no, I was supposedly the one who called them savages. I really did not, you know, call anyone savages. I said they must have expected some sort of serious consequences of the hostile actions committed by people they gave shelter to. And, why should we have to ‘negotiate’ them handing over the perpetrators? Would that not have been a matter of course, when thousands of civilians were murdered?

    The reference link you are sending does not actually contradict anything of what I said. The progressive ‘dilution’ of the original Taliban ranks with locals is what I also described, and that it was preceded and upheld by (besides money)a more moderate façade is logical. However, the choice of moderation comes after lack of progress in following pure aggression. It would have been more believable if it had been original, and so it remains an open question, whether we can in any way trust it, even a little…

    Well you can amuse yourself with taking me down pegs, because I do not swallow your kind of propaganda, but subscribe to a different brand if you will, and I’m sure you will. Be my guest. Maybe this urge to take other people down pegs has started wars here and there. But then it’s not about not starting wars, it’s about who does it. Right? The egg and the chicken?

    “We aren't fighting for our lives, we are fighting an entirely blown out of all proportion police action.”

    It would be nice if you were correct, but I don’t think so…

  • mikev

    2 years ago

    dorothy

    Well you're sort of getting it :-) It's not we're the good guys and they're the evil guys and so we're doing the good work to wipe them out.

    NATO should have dissolved along with the Warsaw Pact. The UN is supposed to be the forum. If we keep NATO, then we keep the status quo of regional conflict and should just quit kidding ouselves, give up on yearning for peace and dissolve the UN instead. Why should any other country take the UN seriously if we just step around it whenever it suits our purposes?

    Every soldier of every military unit of every country is lead to beleive that they are the best in the world, that they have uncommon bravery, that they are the ones with the guts to do what needs to be done. If I was in sent into a firefight in Afghanistan, I would probably curl up and cover my ears and rock myself in a puddle of my own urin. But what is the point in mentioning the bravery of our troops, or the cowardice of the enemy? I would have jumped on you whichever way you came at it. Soldiers follow orders. If they have an opinion on why they are there, or politics, they are bound to keep it to themselves (unless it's useful for propaganda purposes of course). Talking about "support our troops" is just a smokescreen, talking about the cowardice of the enemy is just silly.

    "the choice of moderation comes after lack of progress in following pure aggression"

    But it doesn't have to. We didn't have to choose invasion first, and start to consider moderation after 8 long years of hell. That's what gets me, how I could read a lot of what you say from the polar opposite direction, and it almost makes more sense.

    I'm a sarcastic jerk. I love getting the chance to strut my stuff, when I see someone speaking out in what seems to me a misguided way. I respect you for sticking around, even more for not quite stooping to my level. I'm no intellectual powerhouse, but the idea of someone reading this thread and coming away thinking that your viewpoint seemed like the logical one, or an uncontested one, or even a common one, well it just gets my typing fingers twitching. Someone has to say something, if it`s me then sure I`ll give it a shot.

  • mikev

    2 years ago

    the nub of the issue

    “We aren't fighting for our lives, we are fighting an entirely blown out of all proportion police action.”

    "It would be nice if you were correct, but I don’t think so…"

    I worry that our ham fisted actions could in the future lead to us truly fighting for our lives.

    How do you think our lives are in danger? I mean as in more in danger than from driving to work in the morning, or earthquakes or lightning strikes, or asteroids or martian invasion?

    If you think invading Afghanistan is what was needed to make us safer, then what is the point to leaving our soda behind and taking off our shoes to get through airport security?

    I mean there is the military to crush our enemies, and then there are security forces to keep us safe from criminals. Criminals highjacked planes and flew them into buildings murdering thousands of people. There should have been investigations to find everyone even remotely involved and then police actions to bring them to justice. Instead Afghanistan and then Iraq were destroyed. How many of the people we killed in Afghanistan and Iraq wore the same uniform and followed orders from the same people as the criminals responsible for 9 11? You could argue that some of them, maybe even a lot of them, had similar ideals. Guilty by association?

    You think it has made us look strong. I think it has made us look like hypocrites. Where is our precious rule of law? You think we can eliminate the kind of people who would do something like that. I think that everyone we kill turns more people against us, family members and friends and acquaintances. You think that a country like Afghanistan is simply behind us, that they will inevitably grow up and evolve become like us, and that we can push them along. I think Afghanistan is simply different, and there is no reason to limit them to following in our footsteps, they could on their own end up better than us, remaining entirely different the whole time. Am I on the right track with any of that?

  • dorothy

    2 years ago

    Mikev, some of my observations went past your head...

    "..I think Afghanistan is simply different, and there is no reason to limit them to following in our footsteps, they could on their own end up better than us, remaining entirely different the whole time. Am I on the right track with any of that?"

    Sure, they can do their own thing on their own turf. I only take exception when their dirty dishwater hits me and my people squarely in the face in big slops, as happened on 9/11. As far as I know, people did try to ferret out the criminals in a smaller kind of way and got diddly in the way of cooperation from the Taliban.

    Are you not aware that Muslims everywhere celebrated big after 9/11? I got eyewitness accounts from members of my family in Denmark, who were gobsmacked over the complete glee over thousands of ordinary people's lives wiped out.

    I think you're kidding yourself if you think any interaction between them and us is about anything else than lebensraum, as in them intending to take over ours. Your sad tunnel vision comes out when you react to my observation that "..the choice of moderation comes after lack of progress in following pure aggression.." You are either willfully obtuse, or you didn't even understand that I was talking about them and their giving up, in someone's words, their 'geography of conquest'. We never had a 'geography of conquest', aimed at suborning the rest of the world and recreating it in our own image, with ourselves on top. That this to some extent happened anyway might really, have you ever thought of that, be because we approach life with better strategies and harder work?? Maybe we don't rely on our Gods wiping out all those who stand in our way, so there'll be no competition, but instead gird ourselves to meet such competition. Read the welfare and crime stats from Denmark, where the door is, or was, wide open, and compare their various groups of immigrants, and also compare that to the immigrants who traditionally came to Canada, from Europe and Asia. Some people roll up their sleeves and get to work, while others rely on their notion of being 'princes of the world', as well as hope their God will clear the way for them, of course, you understand, by making their swords sharper, those they intend cutting us in two with, because we aren't worth a bullet.

    All of these utterings have been in the public domain, in the public media, no secrets there. And you and people in your camp choose to not see or hear.

    ...more

  • dorothy

    2 years ago

    continued

    "..You think that a country like Afghanistan is simply behind us, that they will inevitably grow up and evolve become like us, and that we can push them along.."

    No, I never thought that. I think some of the people who used to lead them, and would like to do so again, and definitely some of the people to whom those people gave shelter and aid, think of our turf as the yet to be conquered part of the world, hence the 'geography of conquest', and that if we do not intend to see that happen, we cannot be paralyzed by fear of 'looking like hypocrites'. Our precious Rule of Law? safe and sound since the assault trying to squeeze in Sharia was averted.

    I feel sad for the ordinary Afghan people, if any of them are still around. But I know that without a handful of brave individuals, who broke all the rules of the day, my old country would have ended up on the wrong side of the table after WW2, and I don't see why we need to be more charitable than the World in general would have been to that small country. No matter how hard a time it would have had to guard its gate, it would still have been held responsible for not doing so. If a country wants a place in the world, the rest of us must be able to rely on its ability to uphold some sort of Rule of Law, so that its ills stays within its own borders, orat least don't help the enemy. Look at the mess Somalia is generating right now. Think of it as an overgrown lot riddled with people gone feral, who are a danger to everyone around them. Do you also think we should let them 'do their own thing' in the direction of predation on any and all passers-by?

  • mikev

    2 years ago

    "As far as I know, people

    "As far as I know, people did try to ferret out the criminals in a smaller kind of way and got diddly in the way of cooperation from the Taliban."

    I would like to know more about that. As far as I know it was an ultimatum and then invasion. If there was more to it I wouldn't feel quite so ashamed.

    "We never had a 'geography of conquest', aimed at suborning the rest of the world and recreating it in our own image, with ourselves on top."

    Well maybe you and I didn't personally, but "we" most certainly did. It's almost hilarious to hear you say that, if it wasn't so depressing.

    "Think of it as an overgrown lot riddled with people gone feral, who are a danger to everyone around them."

    Oh please please don't cheer on our hawks. I guess because there are criminals in Somalia, we should get out our bunker busters and take the place over?

    And again, you talk about "them", "cowardly" and now "feral", OK you didn't actually say savage, but can't you see how I would get the impression that is what you think?

    Willfully obtuse? Try this on. You can tell propaganda, because it's so ridiculous that the statement would work just as well for either side. Here goes.

    "said country could not keep it together and gave shelter to people with all sorts of brutal aspirations"

    Yes said country gave sanctuary to people like Luis Carrilles, gave financial support to groups like the IRA, and let itself be a training ground for bands of monsters like the Atlacatl Battalion, Battalion 3-16, the Colina Group, and many others.

    "They forced medieval totalitarianism on a people that had begun to move towards some modern and progressive values."

    Hmmm yes: like with Ferdinand Marcos in The Phillipines, Pinochet in Chile, Mohammad Pahlevi in Iran, Suharto in Indonesia, Mohammed Zia Ul-Haq in Pakistan, Mobutu in The Congo, Francois Duvalier in Haiti, should I go on? Or how about current friends like Islam Karimov in Uzbekistan?

    "the same bully-boys they always were, and there seems to be no talking to them, it's their way or the highway."

    I hardly need to say anything there. You've heard of George Bush Jr. right?

    Anyway, I hope I made my point. You and I are not monsters, but "we" have done monstrous things, and to minimize or even ignore this, while throwing stones at "a few bad apples" in countries that can't even afford to feed themselves let alone defend themselves from us, I just don't like it.

    A few terrorists is not Afghanistan. A few pirates is not Somalia. I don't advocate doing nothing about them. I fight against the idea that starting a war is the best way, or even a good way, to deal with the situation.

  • dorothy

    2 years ago

    I notice you'r not answering a lot of what I say,

    but rather cherry-picking what you can find unpleasant names for. I don't buy the pity-card. It's not our fault they can't afford to feed themselves. Why is there declining procreation in the Western World? because if there wasn't, we might not be able to afford feeding oursselves someday soon. So, we make the hard pragmatic decisions; they do not. It's really that simple. If their religion does not teach them how to survive on their own, it's obsolete and they should rewrite it. Instead, they think to level the field by forcing the same doctrine on us. Since the conquest of Spain by the Moors, we have barely managed to keep Islamists off our turf, but have always been under the gun, seeing their fundamentalism take over and do wreckage. If it wasn't sheer meanness to blow up the Bahmiyan Buddhas, please tell me what it was? And now we should feel sorry for them? Give me a break!

    I am interested in this claim:

    "Well maybe you and I didn't personally, but "we" most certainly did. It's almost hilarious to hear you say that, if it wasn't so depressing."

    I would like to know where, when and by whom such a plan was formulated, let alone acted on. Surely you know that the natural inclination of the US has always been to keep to their own ground and not get involved? They had to be hauled kicking and screaming into the 2nd WW, only prompted by a direct attack on their territory.

    As far as the ultimatuom goes regarding handing the killers over, I cannot see it should have been needed. The fact remains that it was not the natural thing to do, which it certainly would have been for any western country that harbored such perpetrators. Even this many years after, war criminals of WW2 hiding in Canada have been handed over. No one had to threaten our country to make that happen. In fact, the push to do so came from Candadians themselves.

    The list of thuggish regimes you are mentioning is not to the point. None of them have attacked this continent. Can you not get that through your head?

    No, war is not a good solution to anything, but, as per the choice of some of our fellow inhabitants on the globe, it is sometimes the only solution made available to us, if we want to live on our terms and not somebody else's, with a ring through our nose. The places where these people have all the power, and there are others not of their kind, these others get the Hel out if they are at all able to. Doesn't that tell you soemthing?

  • soleprobe

    2 years ago

    Malalai Joya in inerview with CTV in Canada

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU9fkRgcG_c

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