If true, so illuminating!

Obviously, much ado about his eco-ego!

Such is the nature of humans!

Have a friend on Quadra

Have a friend on Quadra Island who happens to be a Jehovah's Witness (no, I'm not one). A number of years ago "Joe", as I'll call him, was doing his Saturday morning door-knocking-routine and came across, yes you guessed it, Doctor David. "Joe" said the encounter wasn't pretty. David had a hissy-fit and used words that even "Joe" hadn't even heard before and "Joe" use to be a logger. So I have no doubt about Bill's account of the good Doctors behaviour. I too am totally pissed-off with the established ecos who seem to think that they alone know whats good for the planet cuz they're the 'experts'. Definition of an expert; Has a briefcase, wears a suit, and comes from outta town.

demonizing the devil

I'd wager (if I were a betting man), Suzuki's globe-trotting carbon footprint is larger and deeper than the carbon footprints of any ten of my associates put together. Bill, it behooves me to know: how can anyone else demonize that hypocritical devil?

Suzuki's own words demonize him.

Lukey

I'll respond to the comments you made on the thread about Campbell's finally coming clean about his pre-election budget lies after Nova Scotia's Dexter is elected tonight.

Hopefully there will be a fitting article about the NS election right here at The Tyee.

David Sleezeuki

David Sleezeuki has totally discredted himself.
We know it, he knows it.

He is now just another angry man hanging out with BC Liberal cretins.

Enjoy the rest of your life David.

Danger! Eco Egos at work!

Experts at what?

I guess the Liberals victory is tasting a bit bitter eh David!

gaulois

What did the NDP deserve a beating for? The carbon tax?

"I don't give a shit about

"I don't give a shit about you..." Suzuki almost screamed.

Said Bill Tieleman, as he almost reported.

If you use quotation marks, perhaps you should write down what he actually screamed.

As for the NDP - they were foolish to challenge the carbon tax - they handed the liberals a great wedge issue that decided the election.

Perhaps the betrayal wasn't that respected members of the community like Suzuki, Harcourt and Robertson supported the carbon tax, but rather that the NDP opposed it. I'm a progressive, but I parked my vote elsewhere because of Axe the Tax.

midnightsimon

Do you actually 'know' anything about Pigovian taxes?

I doubt it.

In fact, I think Suzuki's anger is likely at least party a result of the fact that he understands even less what he's become a part of.

I suggest you do a little research before you draw any further conclusions.

The Campbell Tax had little or nothing to do with the outcome of the election - except in the minds of a few bought and paid for folks like Andrew Weaver.

And, by the way, you should learn about the proper use of quotation marks too.

That's what Suzuki said - precisely...the description 'almost screamed' refers to the volume with which the remark was delivered.

Screw David Suzuki...

He sold out. Who gives a shit about him anymore?

Wooo Hoooo! Way to go Nova Scotia NDP!! Awesome victory!

DSF

I know little about the David Suzuki Foundation. A few of the comments make it seem like things are dire there. That being said I have a lot of respect for the current CEO, whom I know a lot more about.

@Amor de cosmos.......

Suzuki is old n tired,he probably needs a diaper like old Bill Bennett who puttered around with Gordoh up in wine country.....

Mr. Cosmos,just curious,is the carbon tax really a tax if you get every dollar back?.......
Campbell has told all BCers that they are ahead finacialy with the carbon tax!....

That doesn`t sound like a deterrent or a tax Cosmos,well, maybe you like to sniff Campbell`s ass................

What has Campbell been cooking Cosmos?...............

You all know why Suzuki is upset don`t you?............

Campbell has no money for an enviromental roundtable,I guess Campbell kinda fooled Suzuki and Berman,what a suprise.

Something like a girl finding out her boyfriend has the clap

It's said that you can be known by the friends you keep. Judging by the kind of support Suzuki's finding here - with Campbell-style "Liberals" rushing to his defense - I doubt there's very much room left for genuine environmentalists or Lefties in his camp.

The fish farm story....

http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/news/story.html?id=c23f-44d3-891e-84dc4e91ab72

Ron Cantelon`s take on fish farm problems...

http://www2.canada.com/courierislander/news/story.html?id=f862fced-c23f-44d3-891e-84dc4e91ab72

Frank....

You have just confirmed that power for the BC NDP is more important than principle.

The BC NDP has no principles. Or haven't ya figured that out yet??? ;)

Luke

Name one principle of yours because I bet you can't think of one.

Luke

Come on, just one sacrosanct principle.

I know one

Keeping BC the leader in child poverty?

Losing more jobs than any other province?

Highest rate of deficits than any other party?

I'm really curious.

Can I have a picture of Tieleman?

[OFFENSIVE COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

I simply can't believe this

Tieleman is 'responsible' because David Suzuki loses his cool and explodes like a cheap firecracker at a public function?

The NDP is somehow responsible because a public media figure has a meltdown and acts like a spoiled child?

Not much wonder the Campbell forces find this such fertile ground: Welcome to the monkey house.

Best place on earth my ass.

Now, what was the result of that election in Nova Scotia?

Just what party got booted out?

Oh right, they don't count because of what luke?

Remind us exactly what you think of Canadians on the other side of the country, please?

The only principle Frank, is the principle that they don't have any.

Luke

Ha, so you couldn't come up with a SINGLE Liberal principle.

nechakogal

Four more years of leading the country in child poverty eh? Good going buddy, glad you have your priorities straight.

Frank

As if the NDP could muster a reasonable response. They started the cuts buddy!

Frank...

Ya better put things into further perspective:

http://www.straight.com/article-227805/bc-posts-worst-childpoverty-rate-sixth-straight-year-2007-its-not-bad-previous-year

Pre-1992 the Socreds were in power. The rate today is lower than at any time during the NDP's decade-long reign of the 1990's.

That aside... another cheap NDP stunt... the NDP clamoured for higher MLA salaries and approvd same until the public out-cry.

The BC NDP then stated that they would donate the raise to charity collecting the allowable tax credits/deductions during the interim.

Lo and behold, without telling the electorate during the election, the BC NDP now wants to collect their entire salary increase.

Good cheap politics... but... principle??? Come on!

nechakogal

We've been leading the country for 6 years. Campbell is now in his 9th year.

But by all means you, Amor, Reefer and midnight please keep voting for more of it.

May I ask what is your favourite part of child poverty?

Luke

My god you're forgetful, I already took you to the woodshed the last time you posted that drivel. Look at the entire Cdn average during the NDP years. Look at it now. Note the difference in the graphs.

Compare the NDP years versus the Cdn average and then compare the Liberal years with the Cdn average and then get back to me. If you need help let me know.

Luke

Just one Liberal principle.

Ask nechakogalfor help if you're mystified.

so partisan politics

Brandishing child poverty good grief, don't you have more than that in your arsenal. It is creepy, really.

A helping hand

National child poverty levels peaked in 1996.

They've been falling ever since except for a slight uptick in 2002.

nechakogal

What's really creepy is that you support it.

Frank

The sky here is the deepest, intense shade of midnight blue as the light fades...

Suzuki's temper

For a number of years, David Suzuki supported a scholarship for science journalism at Carleton's University School of Journalism. If I recall the story correctly, Suzuki met his wife while giving a lecture at Carleton.

Anyhow, over the course of a number of years, two different Carleton journalism profs wrote reviews for major newspapers on books by Suzuki. Neither review was particularly kind, and after seemingly stewing on this for several years, fired off a fax to Carleton withdrawing his funding for the scholarship.

To me, this indicated a very big ego. I talked to an academic who knows him and he confirmed it.

VivianLea

Watch yourself, that might be the colour Suzuki's acolytes reflect just before they erect a Campbell totem which also tells the story of the carbon tax.

Or maybe....

"David Sleezeuki has totally discredted himself.
We know it, he knows it."

Or maybe the NDP has.

To both Frank and nechakogal.......

...... the 52% voter turnout and Campbell's 23% provincial support speak of a great political disconnect in BC. I would go so far to say that the past election was illegitimate, no better than the old Soviet style 'showcase' elections.

48% of provincial voters have washed their hands of the system and even STV could not save it.

Campbell has another 4 years of provincial sell off and the NDP another 4 years of pretending it's the bad old 60's.

Viki Huntington's victory sent a clear message to both political parties, but they remain deaf and dumb.

In short, we are in one hell of a mess and I just do not see any way out of it, [COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.] Any tea to throw overboard?

Now about that Nova Scotia election

31 - NDP; 11 - Liberal; 10 Conservative.

Hmm!

Someone has their priorities straight I guess.

To bad there aren't more thoughtful people here in BC - the place where the only qualification the Premier needs is a DUI conviction.

BC the place where we're proud as hell to have the most kids in poverty 6 years running....

Sylphid

Sylphid,

I AGREE! I've followed Bill for some time and met him in person on a few occasions. I fail to understand his support for electoral reform. We won't have another chance for a long time.

By the next election, Campbell & Co. will have had 12 years of remaking BC and chipping away at the the public sector in a slow and steady fashion.

Frank

You forgot that the totem also depicts child sacrifice...

Grumpy

"48% of provincial voters have washed their hands of the system and even STV could not save it."

If that 48% had voted on whether or not to change or keep the "system" then I would agree. But they didn't show up to vote even on that. They easily could have walked in and cast a Yes or No vote for STV and refused to vote for a government and that would certainly have been a strong statement. But not showing up at all is no statement at all except that they don't care who governs them or how.

"Viki Huntington's victory sent a clear message to both political parties, but they remain deaf and dumb."

Viki didn't send any message outside of south Delta. If there was one none of us heard it.

"to send a resounding message to the powers that be that the public are tired of the way things are run."

Apparently they aren't, and their apathy on May 12th proved that.

Pot meet kettle

Wilfred Laurier = 100% Liberal supporter and everybody knows it.

Bill T could never do anything right in Wilf's world even if he singlehandedly cured cancer.

Luke

I thought you were off to the library to find a Liberal principle?

CAW

"That was also an NDP policy endorsed by delegates at the 2007 NDP convention. Or do ya have a failing memory? :D"

Well the CAW and the other various smoke stack unions put and end to that pretty quick.

Suzuki Has Lost It

He seems to have no oversight on what his foundation is doing, and has certainly lost a lot of credibility in the last few years. Yes he did a lot of great things for BC in the past, but you can't rest on your laurels forever. His support of Campbell in this election was disastrous for the future of our province. My mom went marching directly to his office after hearing his comments about the carbon tax, and demanded to know why he wasn't making similar comments about Campbell selling off our rivers. She was told that they were working on that "behind the scenes"! WHY behind the scenes?? That does not inform British Columbians or help save our beautiful province. Gee, do you think Suzuki's silence on this and other pressing matters has anything to do with the director of his foundation being a major Liberal supporter, who has gained financially directly from Liberal contracts in his personal business?

Liberal Principles

The BC Liberals have no principles really. Campbell will do whatever is politically expedient and will satisfy those that put the most in the Liberal coffers.

Highlights from the NDP peanut gallery

Rod, you're comments on these forums suggest to me you haven't an ounce of independent thought, just another old school NDP apologist. So I don't expect you would be able to see NDP dirt if it was shoveled onto directly your doorstep, much less the variety issued by Bill.

I've assembled some of the highlights in this comments section from you you and your cohorts. Some real good stuff.

“with those attitudes, he really DOES belong in the Campbell tent.”

“is well past his ‘best before date’ and is beginning to stink.”

“David Sleezeuki has totally discredted himself.”

“Lets see, one down and two to go. Berman and Pembina may prove to be more difficult.”

“Suzuki has fallen prey to the Messianic Complex in which upon gaining power, one attracts to onesself an army of sychophants...”

“David, just like Doctor Jeckyl, is cluelessly waking up with a hangover and egg on his face.”

“Suzuki's anger is likely at least party a result of the fact that he understands even less what he's become a part of.”

“Suzuki is old n tired,he probably needs a diaper like old Bill Bennett.”

teesola: Yes, at a minimum

teesola
She was told that they were working on that "behind the scenes"! WHY behind the scenes?? That does not inform British Columbians or help save our beautiful province. Gee, do you think Suzuki's silence on this and other pressing matters has anything to do with the director of his foundation being a major Liberal supporter, who has gained financially directly from Liberal contracts in his personal business?

Of course the DSF mutes any criticisms it has that might be bothersome for the Liberal Party, federally or provincially. That's their political game.

I once asked them why they weren't involved in protests against the design of the Hwy 99 project, the loss of recreational lands in West Vancouver. They were supporting all kinds of protests against the PMH1 project, so why not Hwy 99 as well? I got a silly bugger reply from some supposed climate expert to the effect that they couldn't fight every battle.

Later I asked what the Suzuki Foundation's position was on the Tsawwassen Treaty and its exclusion of ALR land that will be paved over for a Deltaport container yard. No answer of any substance was ever offered.

It's all just politics, not science as they so grandiosely claim. Their job was to sucker the NDP into opposing PMH1 and thus lose ground in Surrey, so the DSF opposed PMH1 and even helped set up the so-called "Livable Region Coalition" to help push the idea.

[COMMENT REMOVED. -MODERATOR.]

On the Tsawwassen Treaty, the DSF refused to say anything for fear of either upsetting farmland preservationists or else offending their Liberal handlers.

At the DSF, it's all Liberal politics all the time.

@Wayfarer.......

You are correct,but everyone of those awards are based on ancient history.....

many old men lose their way,Suzuki is and has been resting on his past,time for Suzuki to go away,he is nothing more than a paid shill,Tieleman is a baffoon at the best of times but........
Tieleman is a great party smoozzer,Suzuki wasn`t even invited,............

in fact,I think the next bunch of fish farms should be named the Suzuki endorsed fish farms........
Credit where credit is due!

Cheers

I would have rather

seen David Suzuki support a carbon tax that actually accomplishes something positive for our evironment. Instead, he supported a snake oil tax. This is what I don't understand from someone so intelligent. The argument in favour of the idea of the tax is different to the argument against a tax that does nothing.

In France, they take global warming seriously

Instead of building the 'state' sponsored MATRA VAL light metro, city politicians opted to build with much cheaper light rail instead. Why?

You get more bang for your buck. Cities with LRT could build up to ten (10) times more light rail (trams in France) than VAL.

The result for cities building with trams was a massive modal switch from cars to transit, with some cities seeing a modal change of over 50%.

In BC, we keep building with the state sponsored, very expensive, SkyTrain light-metro. A metro system so expensive that a switch had to be made to a generic light-metro for the price sensitive, RAV/Canada Line metro. The modal switch due to SkyTrain is well under 10%, a figure not lost on those selling light-rail!

And even more hugely expensive light-metro is being planned for, even though it has proven very poor in attracting the motorists from their cars!

And thus the need for a gas tax, masquerading as a carbon tax. There it is, plain and simple, the carbon tax is a general revenue tax to bolster the huge costs of light-metro construction, even though it is very poor in attracting the motorist from the car. The huge expense of SkyTrain has also sown the seeds of the massive Gateway bridge and highways project.

AND SUZUKI SUPPORTS THIS CRAP? He is turning out to be the anti-Christ of environmentalism!

reefer

Yep! definitely, Blame the victim.

Tieleman IS a journalist - and, for what he's paid, a much more honest one than the scribblers who work for CanWest.

Suzuki has always been a loose cannon - why don't you read his autobiography.

Frank

It wasn't midnightsimon, Amor de Cosmos and Reefer who re-elected Campbell, nor was it Suzuki. It was the idiot who chose "Axe the Tax" as our response to the Liberals' gas tax.

Any good spin doctor knows the power of a simple phrase to overpower a complex argument, but in this case the phrase labelled its own user as crudely antienvironmental in a way that no amount of subsequent clarification could ever undo.

This was an obvious and predictable effect that should cause those who proposed the slogan to consider Hari Kiri (or at least a very clear and public "mea culpa") rather than trying to cast the blame on others.

wayfarer: Which one did I write?

wayfarer
Rod, you're comments on these forums suggest to me you haven't an ounce of independent thought, just another old school NDP apologist. ...

I've assembled some of the highlights in this comments section from you you and your cohorts. Some real good stuff

You're right. I am an NDP supporter, and like most partisans I am a one-eyed judge of my party's conduct.

What about you? Would it be fair to say that you are a devoted political supporter of David Suzuki, completely unable to see any flaws in the icon's arguments, or even to be amused when the icon makes a fool of himself at a gathering? Do you think Suzuki was being a totally non-partisan scientist when he said he was "ashamed" of Carole James in a speech last year in Nanaimo? Was he being a non-partisan scientist when he hosted the first event in Elizabeth May's Green Party leadership drive at his home?

You said earlier that Tieleman's column was dirty and unprofessional. I don't accept that, and would be interested if you can explain how his column offends against any rules of good journalistic practice. Maybe Kevin Grandia or Richard Littlemore could help you out with this task.

BTW, of the quotes you listed I don't recognize any as mine. Which one did I write?

Pissing on David Suzuki?

Where the hell did that come from?

Suzuki embarrassed himself by pissing on Bill Tieleman.

Did you not read the article?

Baloney

NDP support was solid; as a percentage it was as strong or stronger than any other election.

Don't blame the NDP for not getting out to vote.
This government is a product of mindless right-wing thinking - a product that appeals to a bought and paid for media which has utterly failed to characterize the Campbell tax for what it really is - a money laundry...and a money laundry which ignores both cruise ships and airlines while pandering to the oil industry in the Northeast.

When Campbell decides to push for offshore exploration I hope those folks who believe in free speech and open discussion will find your voices to speak up against the real problem in this Province - Gordon Campbell.

This is politics in its lowest form. It's despicable.

ReeferMadness
This is politics in its lowest form. It's despicable.

No kidding.

The NDP claimed to not like the carbon tax because it was unfair and ineffective. They could have proposed changes but instead they played cheap politics.

This is called "framing the argument". The NDP "claimed" they were opposed to the carbon tax because it was unfair and ineffective. But then you assert that the real reason was "cheap politics". It's argument by adjective, a good propaganda trick, with lots of examples to work from at DeSmogBlog.com.

BT, you can't sharpen S's pencils!

But you do know how to whine, manipulate, distort, exaggerate, spin and hack information and people. You've staked out your professional career doing this, so why should you stop now?! This article is but the latest exemplar of this.

And your addition to the Tyee staff is anything but a jolt of credibility.

alqpr

So based on that same logic I guess I can blame enviros for Campbell's policies.

And that includes Suzuki, midnightsimon etc.

Campbell has saved the environment

The carbon tax has survived and global warming is now fixed.

Run of river hydro means we will have no more pollution as soon as we all get electric cars.

The rivers are of course fine because any lost fish will be more than compensated for by our wonderful fish farms.

My dual flush toilets have saved the fresh water supply.

Park rangers can all now be laid off because there's set limits on how many animals can be shot.

Offshore drilling and new pipelines can proceed because the carbon tax means people won't use those fuels irresponsibly.

Its a brave new world and I congratulate the enviros for defeating the NDP and getting all you want.

Ummm don't think so michael maser

Unless you were describing David Suzuki?

On the basis of the evidence, this description of yours seems much more apt when it describes him:

...whine, manipulate, distort, exaggerate, spin and hack information and people...

Would it be unfair to say David Suzuki ought to grow up?

He behaved like a 70 year old petulant child and Tieleman reported on it.

If he doesn't like it, he can head back to UBC and start teaching again. Those classes were pretty much of a captive audience of sycophants - which seems to be the kind of uncritical and unaccountable world he wants to live in.

I imagine he'd still be able to claim tenure.

michael maser: How will private schools fare in the next budget?

michael maser
But you do know how to whine, manipulate, distort, exaggerate, spin and hack information and people. You've staked out your professional career doing this, so why should you stop now?! This article is but the latest exemplar of this.

This sounds like a good description of the "work" that Kevin Grandia and Richard Littlemore do at DeSmogBlog.com. Of course, it could also apply to the cheesy op-ed pieces supposedly penned by tenured intellectuals that appeared in the CanWest papers, calling Layton and James "dishonest" for not supporting the BC carbon tax. (These pieces were probably written by the Public Affairs Bureau and then just signed by the academics.)

I don't think it applies to Bill Tieleman at all. The courage and persistence he's shown on the Basi-Virk trial is commendable, and if that's what is really getting under your skin, michael, I can well understand your dislike of Tieleman.

I wonder michael, can you tell us how private schools will fare in the next budget, the post-election one?

You are utter fools..........

That is what you people are.....fools....

The carbon tax,to be successful needs to be at least 50 cents a liter and NO tax refunds,what the fuck!

You pay tax out,you get the tax back on a refund and you call that an effective carbon tax?
Are you fucking idiots!!!!

Well guess fucking what,you like gas taxes,your going to get another one,the carbon tax goes up 2 cents on july 1st and........
Translink is raising fares for bus/skytrain service,guess what,for all you asses who haven`t read (I believe bill 42)the greater Vancouver transportation authorization amendment act.......

For Translink to raise transit fares,they must,BY LAW (BY the law of the act)if they raise transit fares they must ALSO RAISE PROPERTY TAXES and,by law,they must also add 3 cents a litre in fuel taxes,all three must be done in tandem(according to the law of bill 42)........
None of those items can be done by themselves,so here is the deal for you Campbell lovers..........

July 1st,gas is going up 2 cents for the carbon tax,3 cents for Translink,fare increases,property tax increases,and.....

150.00$ ICBC car levy(per car)and all of the Translink tax money will build NOTHING.....All the money will be going for the 2.8 billion dollar Canada line and guaranteed tolls for the bridge builder,directly from Translink,nothing to do with volume,Translink has guaranteed tens of millions per month for 25 years regardless of how many go over the bridge.

Cheers

More Focked up Campbell.....

Tuesday through thursady until june 25th there is a BC ferry deal....39 dollars for car and driver from Horseshoe bay to Nanaimo...........

BC ferries are tanking,volume down,tourism waaayyyyy dddoowwnnnn and Scampbell thinks a midweek deal(before the kids are out of school) will entice island tracellers....

Wrong,first off,all the interior and fraser valley Campbell supporters don`t want to go to NDP country,we islanders don`t want liberal visiters anyways....

And who the hell wants to visit liberal land?

NO ONE.....

Enjoy the pending disaster...3 billion dollar deficit this year,400 million$ deficit last year and........

6 billion$ deficit next year...BC debt from 31 billion to 81 billion in 9 years.........

Enjoy your fucking carbon tax!

Frank...

I'm still waitin' for your reponse to this quip... ya know: ;)

http://earthblips.dailyradar.com/story/canada_harcourt_throws_support_behind_provincial/

I guess it needs to be repeated again and again and again:

During the 2007 BC NDP convention, delegates passed a resolution in support of a carbon tax (essentially the same one now in place).

It's apparently NDP "strategists" who want nothin' to do with it... not the NDP rank and file who voted in favour of it back in 2007.

Or do you just stick with the NDP "brain trust" party line all of the time? :D

Rob_

More pity you then because the Campbell Tax is not a carbon tax - it's a money laundry.

I hasn't reduced GHG one single tonne in the 11+ months it has been in effect...or hadn't that message gotten through to you either.

Luke

How many times my friend have I told you that if it were a carbon tax, if the revenues generated DID anything positive except spin Campbell's tax neutral Maytag that there would have been an argument to support it.

It doesn't and there isn't; the fact that a fellow like Harcourt has been manipulated by a character like Andrew Weaver notwithstanding: THE TAX DOES NOTHING BUT SPIN MONEY; IT HASN'T REDUCED TRAFFIC; DECREASED GHG EMISSIONS OR PUT ONE PERSON INTO TRANSIT; IT HASN'T INSULATED ONE HOUSE; REPLACED ONE SET OF WINDOWS OR CONVERTED ONE TRUCK TO BURN PROPANE.

The thing is a manipulative joke, Campbell and his band of miscreants hardly debated the thing in the Legislature, the minister signed the regulations without ever reading them, they tax exempts two of the biggest polluters.

Harcourt was a fool to support it and the fact his foolishness is about the only good thing you can say about Bill 37 is pretty telling.

Why not look up the thing and read it - then you might be able to sustain an argument about it.

Luke

"I'm still waitin' for your reponse to this quip... "

I'm still waiting to hear about your vaunted Liberal principles. Any plans on getting back to me on that?

"Or do you just stick with the NDP "brain trust" party line all of the time? :D"

I'm sorry, is there any question about who you always vote for? Are you not a 100% Liberal both federally and provincially? Do you not attack the NDP in every single post?

BucBay.......

Two items.

1) Yesterday, as I was traveling down HWY. 17 towards Tsawwassen, about 12:45, I noticed on the reader board by the railway overpass - 1 PM departure - 35% full.

2) As I live in Tsawwassen, we fill our car in Point Roberts and save about $20 a tankful and another $20 in groceries!

Adiós the carbon tax!

Good point, Grumpy

2) As I live in Tsawwassen, we fill our car in Point Roberts and save about $20 a tankful and another $20 in groceries!

I wonder if this helps to explain why the Liberal vote all across the Fraser Valley stood up pretty well in spite of the carbon tax, which is going to be going up soon.

politico: Horter in particular bears watching

The fact is that Gregor and his attack dogs (Horter, Berman, Dauncey and all the other wanna be Suzuki's) have been outed and the result is ugly and may even sideline Gregor's aspirations of being an NDP Premier as those inside the Party are extremely pissed off that these guys would so quickly turn on their own (even during an election)and they have lost all credibility.

Will Horter in particular bears watching. His central role in the Saanich-Gulf Islands federal riding shenanigans indicates that he is a key point, perhaps the critical point, in the link up between Liberals and ENGOs.

LeftRightLeft

Tieleman attacked Suzuki?

You're joking right?

Perhaps you need to read the article again, slowly and carefully, for meaning.

The attack dog in this little melodrama wasn't Bill Tieleman, he's just reporting the facts - facts which can be confirmed by others who've also seen Suzuki blow up.

If that's the best you can do, better quit trying.

LeftRightLeft: ROTFLMAO!

Attacking someone with as prestigious a career and significant an impact as Suzuki in such a manner is disrespectful at best. I'd be upset if I were Suzuki as well... his organization's (and his personal) biggest single issues is climate change, and there was a completely incoherent approach to this by the NDP.

Thanks for the entertainment. It's always amusing to hear from someone who's buying the hook, the line, and the sinker from the Elmer Gantry of the moment. If Suzuki's ego is a bit sore, all he needs to do is read posts by his sycophants and he'll be getting all the strokes he needs.

rac

Then start your own party or join the Greens.

Then in 4 years you can complain about that party not making the right decisions.

LeftRightLeft

"I know dozens of researchers in the field who didn't vote NDP because of their climate change "policy.""

Glad to hear they have a party they could support. After all, there's no reason for them to vote NDP if they don't like NDP policies.

Rack your brain.....

Placebos,snake oil,Nigerian lottery,I am amazed at the gullible posters here,Rac,could you explain how the BC Carbon tax helps the world?

Did you drive less because of it?

There is one born every minute!

Don`t be suprised when Campbell cancels(temporarily) the carbon tax because of the economy.

Bullcrap Bun

I didn`t hear Suzuki get mad about fish farms,gateway,4.6 billion$ enbridge pipeline,off shore oil n gas,flathead valley.......
But he got mad about doners backing away,he got mad over a piddly carbon tax that does nothing.......

Suzuki is old n tired,the fruit fly wore him out.......

I liked Bobby Orr in my youth but believe me,Orr is too old n tired to play anymore,move on Suzuki and STFU

"For things he is passionate about ..."

bun
Everyone, Dr. Suzuki has _always_ been like that, since well before he ever became famous. For things he is passionate about, he can lose it. ...

Maybe so. In this case, the thing he was passionate about seems to have been Himself.

Who Really is Unhinged

As a Liberal supporter, I am having the best laugh of my life here.

The NDP has truly lost its way. Bill T. is adrift. He considers Suzuki unhinged, and to prove his point falls back on the absolutely baseless, rediculous rants of A. Morton for proof.

Bill, it was the NDP that abandoned Suzuki, Berman and thousands of hard working scientists, labourers, business owners that are working in (god forbid) privately funded green energy projects across this province. We were pushed out, by a narrow minded, increasingly irrelevant and shrinking group of...well fools.

The election went well, no doubt about it. But, this infighting in the ranks of NDP supporters that started before the election is nothing other than icing on the cake.

Good bye NDP, hello Green Energy and the thousands of jobs it will create.

Finally....

Bill if you believe in Morton so much and are willing to take her over Suzuki then put your reputation fully behind her. She has predicted that all the Salmon in BC will be well on their way to extinction by the end of this liberal term.

Do you want to go on the record with a $1.00 bet with me that by the end of this 4 year term the Salmon of BC will be just fine.

I'll make it even easier lets make the bet that not a single population will be extripated/exinct as the result of Run or River or Fish Farms by the end of this term.

If I win you pay me a dollar and you publicly apologize to Suzuki. If you win. I will pay up and apologize to you.

Take the bet Bill T.

Skepticalgreen....

Green jobs?........Toba inlet?.......4.6 billion Enbridge pipeline?...............Coal extraction?..Flathead valley?.......

How many jobs after the Enbridge pipeline is complete? Answer 30.......

How many jobs after the Toba ROR is complete? answer 10 maybe........

This story is about Suzuki being a clown ass!

Suzuki is mad that he got outed,he is no longer taken seriously,perhaps David(has been)Suzuki can do a nature of things special on how great the Campbell liberals are for the enviroment.

Facts do indeed matter, that's the point

ReeferMadness
... The Conservation Voters of BC endorsed "anyone but Carole" in Victoria-Beacon Hill, writing this:...

The Conservation Voters is an operation owned and operated by one Will Horter, an expatriate American attorney with a history of playing extreme hardball politics in the Saanich-Gulf Islands federal riding.

His "anyone but Carole" recommendation, and the accompanying robocalls to Victoria-Beacon Hill voters by Professor Andrew Weaver of UVic, the political consort of fellow UVic Prof Briony Penn, are among the facts that matter. They show a clear pattern of party politics, not environmental advocacy, a linkup between Liberals and ENGOs.

skeptical Green...

Yeah, the BC NDP has gone back to its silly ideological roots again.

When they come back out of the ideological basement and again begin to mimic the centrist Manitoba NDP and Manitoba Hydro IPP's then they might again be considered contenders for power. And that also refers to other policy areas as well.

Mike Harcourt, as premier in 1995, echoes current government policy when he gave this speech:

http://www.theprovince.com/Business/Hard+argue+against+cheap+clean+power/1671201/story.html

Yeah, the same former Premier Harcourt who came out in favour of the carbon tax during the recent election campaign.

It seems that too many posters on here act akin to ostriches.. they have their heads buried in the sand. :D

buccaneer bay wrote: "I

buccaneer bay
wrote:
"I didn`t hear Suzuki get mad about fish farms,gateway,4.6 billion$ enbridge pipeline,off shore oil n gas,flathead valley......."

Maybe you should stop spending so much time listening to the mainstream media.

Your comment speaks more to what gets reported than what Suzuki actually speaks about.

I have heard him speak about fish farms, gateway, etc.

@Rob_

Suzuki makes speech to small private crowd after the fact/election...Stop The Presses!

Suzuki was quiet before the last federal election........

G Campbell makes pretty good speeches as well,talk is cheap,Suzuki had a chance to voice his concerns before a federal and provincial election but Suzuki follows the smell of money........
by the way,how many of you got the email from DSF to defend your hero....thought so......
must be sad to be Suzuki now,a once shiny star that has dimmed and faded into darkness,where can he go for entertainment now?
Answere---BC Liberal functions

Cheers

Rob_: Not even close and you know it

Rob_

Duh, of course. Because they are registered Charity. They are prohibited from endorsing a particualr party.

This isn't even close to being a satisfactory explanation and you know it. Suzuki's foundation and Pembina were categorical in naming the NDP in their pre-election press release.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/bcvotes2009/story/2009/04/13/bc-ndp-carole-james.html

http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/BC-Politics/2009/04/18/Suzuki-attacks-NDP-plan-to-axe-carbon-tax-Globe/

skeptical Green

"As a Liberal supporter, ...
We were pushed out [of the NDP], by a narrow minded, increasingly irrelevant and shrinking group of...well fools."

How about that, you went from calling yourself a Liberal to calling yourself an NDPer in about 2 sentences. I think that's a record.

As for "shrinking", actually the NDP got a higher percentage of the vote than last time around and the Liberals lost far more voters than the NDP did. But if you want us to pretend we miss you...

"But, this infighting in the ranks of NDP supporters"

Its not infighting, they've declared they didn't vote NDP. The prerequisite of being a "supporter" of a political party is voting for it. Its a simple concept.

"hello Green Energy and the thousands of jobs it will create."

Many here agree with you and happily voted for your "green energy" and carbon tax. Congrats on stopping global warming.

"Do you want to go on the record with a $1.00 bet with me that by the end of this 4 year term the Salmon of BC will be just fine."

I guess this means you think the salmon are fine now. I'm so glad.

ReeferMadness

Do facts matter? Did Mr Suzuki say he was ashamed of Carole James last year?

Did he hold a press conference in the middle of an election campaign that endorsed Liberal policy?

I think he did.

On the other hand he did not endorse the NDP nor their policies nor did he say anything positive about them when his words were being used in the press to damn them.

Gee, no wonder the NDP doesn't consider him to be a supporter.

"Get over yourselves!! Not everyone who fails to genuflect before the NDP altar is a shill for the Liberals."

Oh please, everyone here who didn't vote or voted Liberal is responsible for what this gov't does.

And everyone here who didn't vote NDP should be happy they lost. So quit bitching about the policies of a party you didn't support, you have zero reasons to.
Why not instead use your time to go invest in the fish farms and run-of-river projects you did support?

"And it's not like Suzuki was the only enviro to criticize the NDP. The Conservation Voters of BC endorsed "anyone but Carole" in Victoria-Beacon Hill"

You're not helping your case. Why should the NDP take these people seriously either? They're Liberal supporters.

"So if you want to blame someone for NDP failures, blame your leaders and blame yourselves. Don't blame Dr. Suzuki."

Last time I looked at Mustel polls Carole James ran one of the best campaigns in western political history. And in Nova Scotia the NDP won a majority for doing the same thing Carole did, opposing a carbon tax.

If enviro leaders have led all of you over over a cliff and into political oblivion you have only yourselves to blame.

Luke

I'm still waiting for you to find one Liberal principle.

Did you take my advice and ask midnightsimon for help?

Rod

"must be sad to be Suzuki now,a once shiny star that has dimmed and faded into darkness,where can he go for entertainment now?
Answere---BC Liberal functions"

Yep, he's going to be a Liberal star and the lolly will be rolling into the foundation from lots of new friends, just like the run-of-river corporate people buying tables at Tzeporah Berman's speeches.

Facts matter

Luke sez : "When they come back out of the ideological basement and again begin to mimic the centrist Manitoba NDP"

Gary Doer sez :
“We don’t support the carbon tax”

– CJOB Winnipeg Radio Interview, September 3, 2008.

midnightsimon

Mary Polak is now in charge of the children's ministry.

I assume you're giddy with anticipation about that?

Tzeporah Berman and Gregor Robertson are probably over the moon about it too.

I'm glad everyone is so happy.

"Suzuki makes speech to

"Suzuki makes speech to small private crowd..."

Both speeches I referred to were public. One required tickets, the other was free.

".. after the fact/election..."

One speech was after the election. The other (the most critical of the Provincial Libs) was just a month before the election.

"Suzuki was quiet before the last federal election........"

Maybe in your world. But you need to get out more. Read more widely. Check things out for yourself instead of assuming that only what gets reported in the Vancouver Sun is what actually happens.

"...many of you got the email from DSF to defend your hero.."

Didn't get that email. Not a member of DSF. He's not my hero.

But I think we should be honest about his position. He gives ONE press conference supporing ONE Liberal party policy. And yet in most other speeches he has given in the past four years he has been critical of Liberal party policy. I still don't understand how that makes him a Liberal party supporter.

I don't agree with the messaging of that one press conference and I don't like what the media chooses to report on but that doesn't change the reality of all the other comments Suzuki has made.

Skepticalgreen........

Wow,a 1.00$ bet on whether wild salmon survive the next Campbell Liberal term,imagine that,you want to bet on the survival of wild salmon.......

Wow,2 million pink salmon returns reduced to 10 thousand fish last year,how do YOU SPELL EXTINCTION?

Well Mr. Skepticalgreen,whats a few wild salmon,why bother the 100 employees of BC fishfarms,why bother the shareholders of Plutonic power,really,right skepticalgreen.......

Who gives a flying fuck about starving Orca,dead seals in the fish farm nets,the 50.000 escaped Atlantic salmon last year alone,who cares about the fish farm disease ravaging salmons pens all over the world,.........

Fish farms must be good,thats why the Americans have tons of salmon fish farms,oh yea,the money hungry Americans said no to all fish farms,anyways,I won`t bet on the demise of the wild salmon,perhaps on a can of bad fish being served in the legislature,of course he probably has PAB members double shifting as food testers..........

Cheers,one CAN dream

Hey Luke

How come your Liberal brothers in Ontario don't support a carbon tax?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080221/OTT_Carbon_Tax_080221?s_name=&no_ads=

Don't all Liberals believe in the same things?

Assuming you can list something they all believe in.

I noticed in the same article that ex-Nova Scotia Conservative premier Rodney MacDonald said he may consider a carbon tax in the future.

Seems like the more right-wing you are in Canada the higher the chances you will like the carbon tax.

If only

"Had STV passed, future governments would have likely contained more then enough MLAs from across various parties (NDP/Green) to bring in stronger green legislation."

If they are so good at cooperating, why can't they get the bread together when it really counts, at election time? Every damn time, we look on desperately, while the Greens stubbornly makes sure the NDP will not get enough votes anywhere, while they don't even win one lousy seat, instead of the two of them making list agreements and run candidates in their repective best ridings, and then ask the voters to give their vote to the other party's candidates in the rest. We get our futures screwed on the altar of these people's dogmatic nonsense time after time. When they have proven they can actually cooperate like responsible adults, then it may be worth to get in another election system. For now, we have no reason to believe they won't be trying to play their own separate, divisive games in the legislature, even if they should own a majority together.

As for Suzuki, no great mystery, but an avoidable tragedy. Look up 'grumpy old man syndrome' on the web. Lots of references.

Effective choices

Quote:

"As the living systems of this part of the world are under the final assault by the BC Liberal government, you make headlines. You seem to have no idea of what Gordon Campbell is bringing down on us," Morton wrote to Suzuki and others in an open letter."

Alexandra Morton nails it here.

Suzuki, disappointedly, decided to defend a light-weight, (and more importantly), an ineffective carbon tax.

He should have known better.

By doing so, he is defending "ineffectiveness".... in a time when we urgently need more genuine and much more EFFECTIVE environmental solutions.

Sorry, but Suzuki and (Berman) make themselves look silly and superficial by not taking hold of the big picture.

How can they not see, in Morton's words, "what Campbell is bringing down on us?"

How can they not see that the reckless and arrogant policies of the BC Liberals have left BC like a patient rapidly succumbing to flesh-eating disease, the environmental damage accelerating by the minute?

And Suzuki and Berman's response to the massive and utterly tragic environmental rampage of this province?

A flimsy carbon tax band-aid of little or no consequence.

waste of cyberspace

I don't give a shit that David Suzuki yelled at Bill Tieleman. Too bad Bill wasn't big enough to just suck it up, and too bad the Tyee thought this piece was worth publishing. It seems like a cheap shot, with implicit self-interest: Suzuki red faced, the author "calm".

It reminds me of the CBC's Ideas series that featured a Massey Lecture by Doris Lessing in the mid-1980s called "Prisons We Choose To Live Inside", published later as a small book.

One thing she talked about was the special rage reserved for those who betray or simply leave the party, union, cause or group. Often they become more of a target than those on "the other side" or the systemic roots of injustice. Sort of like...Suzuki in this case.

Please, more articles that critique the system or offer fresh ideas, and less personality politics and personal attacks. Leave that stuff for the blogosphere.

And Bill, enough of the lofty proverbs and quotes already. They're not a substitute for analysis.

Suzuki is playing a bigger game

quote the article
Here's what Suzuki said, April 17: "If [B.C. Liberal Premier Gordon Campbell] goes down because of axe the tax, the repercussions are the carbon tax will be toxic for future politicians. No politician will raise it. That's why environmentalists are so upset."

It's obvious Suzuki has more important things than a BC election to look after, such as the whole entire world. It was James's idiotic idea to fight one of the most progressive, green taxes ever invented and she paid for it. Otherwise he totally would have supported the NDP.

in lieu of a picture

In the absence of a button, I suggest Tieleman's article is offensive and should be removed. In lieu of a picture I have printed off the article and used it for target practice (and in case you were wondering, it didn't hold up long under the assault of spit balls). I also used the article on Jolie. Same results. This was mildly amusing. The decline in quality news at the Tyee isn't.

biscotti & others too numerous to mention

Au contraire.

Please read the journalism again.

Suzuki confronted Tieleman - not the other way around.

He's either non compos mentis or he wanted to make a scene in public. Or he’s a stupid Prima Donna whose best-before date has long since passed!

Calling out a journalist at a public function seems like a pretty stupid thing to do if you don't want your name in the paper.

Personally, I think Suzuki is embarrassed - he now realizes his support for the Campbell Tax - [b]which is not a tax but a money laundry that ignores the biggest polluters (airlines and cruise ships) and doesn't do anything to reduce GHG production (nor will it ever do anything) all the while funneling cash to the higher tax brackets and leaching it from the poor and working poor - was dumb in the extreme.

If, as the Campbell supporters here seem to think, the tax had anything to do with the outcome of the election (I don't believe it did by the way) then anyone who's really a progressive who actually voted for Campbell & Co REALLY has something to be embarrassed about.

In supporting a pointless, administratively complex and useless tax you've managed to re-elect the worst premier this province has had in the last 50 years for another term.

Proud of yourselves?

Oh and when you have a moment, please, read Bill 37 and then come back and tell me what possible use it is in reducing GHG one gram.

The link is readily accessible.

nechakogal

Hie yourself down to Las Vegas. There's a facility there where you can pay to use all manner of small arms to shoot away at a target of your choice.

Pay a little extra and you can enjoy the 'coalition' package and fire all the guns available (including fully automatic weapons) at lithographs of Osama bin Laden and assorted terrorists.

I reckon if you ask nicely you could post up a picture of anyone you want and blast away.

But before you do, you might want to ask yourself just exactly what it says about YOU.

I heard a wicked rumour

That the DSF is gonna hire Angelina Jolie as a spokesperson.Maybe that fits in with that "green wedding" stuff they are promoting?

Get ready for some hard-hitting, serious action on climate change?
The salmon aren't happy though :(
(but that, of course, is only another rumour.)

Arrogant, maybe. But maybe right.

OK, I’m more than a little upset about what I’m reading here.

First, about David Suzuki...I admit, he does appear to be acting quite arrogantly – at least if you take the writer’s account of things as fact. As some of the commenters have suggested, his god-like status in some circles may very well have gotten to him. It happens. In my own opinion (which I admit is not based on much, although I have seen him speak publically), Dr. Suzuki is not exactly arrogant, but rather aggressive. This should hardly be surprising though; the man has spent a good portion of his life fighting to protect the environment – yes, fighting – and mild-mannered politeness is not exactly a useful attribute in this front. Also, we’ve got to keep in mind here that the man is a hero. Seriously, you’d be hard pressed to come up with many people who have done more to protect the environment than he has. Of course, being a hero is no excuse for acting like a jerk. But commenters need to remember that we’re not just talking about some random hot-head here. Maybe...show a little respect?

Then there is the issue that (I think) started all of this: Suzuki’s opposition to James’ opposition to the carbon tax. Personally, I’m with Dr. Suzuki on this one. “Axe the Tax” was completely irresponsible, placing local politics over the health of the entire planet. Not that Campbell’s carbon tax is going to save the planet by itself; but considering just how close we are to running out of time on addressing climate change, any step in the right direction is important. Like it or not, the carbon tax IS a step – and one that many experts have suggested is a necessary part of climate action. Furthermore, it’s quite likely that if this election had been lost on the carbon tax issue, no politician would have been brave enough to bring it up again anytime soon. This would be fine if we had a lot of time on our hands to sit and ponder better ideas...but we don’t. I’ve always been an NDP supporter in the past, but I say shame on James for playing politics with the future of humanity.

That’s my two cents.

Sacrifice play?

It's easy to see why the Campbellites are so upset. Here they thought they had caught a real heavy hitter in Suzuki, and even though it brought in the winning run, he hit a fly ball in his first - and now last - time at bat.

Or to use another analogy, Suzuki's usefulness as a Judas Goat for Campbell has just vaporised.

False assumptions

G West

Perhaps you could reread my post and tell me where I've said that Tieleman confronted Suzuki.

Are you implying that I'm a Liberal supporter? Or that I believe in the carbon tax? If you are, is that because I find Bill Tieleman's article offensive? Read any of my post-election comments on the Tyee and you'll learn where I'm coming from. Not where you mistakenly assume.

Sadly, Doris Lessing was more accurate than I had realized.

btw if you reread nechakogal's comment, you'll notice the use of spitballs, not a gun, not even darts. Small arm, indeed. But I guess according to your kind of logic, nechakogal probably voted for GW Bush and war in Iraq.

No borders

Quote:

"it's obvious Suzuki has more important things than a BC election to look after, such as the whole entire world."

ah, but you miss the point....and overlook the big picture that is at the heart of the environmental argument here : that We Are The World (as the lyrics of that old song sing out) ..... and The World Is Us.

We are inextricably linked.

No escape from the fact of that....

Or the inevitable ramifications of ignoring our critical inter-connections.

There was much more than a BC election at stake here and any true environmentalist would know that.

Grandiosity

vancurber
It's obvious Suzuki has more important things than a BC election to look after, such as the whole entire world. It was James's idiotic idea to fight one of the most progressive, green taxes ever invented and she paid for it. Otherwise he totally would have supported the NDP.

This is a classic piece of grandiosity, which you often find in Vancouver, part of this city's isolation and exceptionalism.

The notion that Suzuki would have supported the NDP otherwise makes a mockery of the position, asserted by many of his disciples, that he is strictly non-partisan. Clearly, vancurber is "off message" on that point.

Yet, biscotti

You expect Tieleman to 'suck it up'; why pray tell? Advice better given to Dr Suzuki I think.

Some moron confronts me in public, and someone who's a public figure himself; I'm not going to hit him - but I'm not going to ignore it either. That's the price you pay for being a public 'spectacle' - Don't like it? Go back to being a private person. At 70 years+ there are plenty of talented young people out there who need jobs and opportunity.

As for Lessing, I've read lots of her prose some of it worthwhile some of it (especially of late) not. Another elderly grand dame who’d be better off serving tea and crumpets – even, given late reports, by her own reckoning.

I disagree that there's any parallelism.

Suzuki did a stupid thing - first of all to cheapen what is supposedly a noble effort by getting into bed with 'either' the NDP or the Liberals - but it's far from the first thing he's done of that sort.

As I've written here previously, I know the man slightly and his rude and unforgivable behavior was, sadly, hardly surprising.

As for you, I'm surprised at your attitude - given what I've read from you before and that's why I remarked about it.

Further, my remarks to netchakogal stand, just as I wrote them - to her attention.

Not sure how you got to George Bush from anything I said - the point simply was that folks requiring some kind of physical catharsis have plenty options available to them.

One final point. Despite David Suzuki's many fine points and admirable qualities I think you'll find - especially if you take the time to read what he's written of a personal and biographical nature - that the most important star in his firmament is HIM.

And, speaking of targets, I'd say Tieleman was Suzuki's target, wouldn't you?

Suzuki got exactly what he and his arrogant and cheap behavior merited.

If he can't take the heat, as they say.

As for netchakogal, I know exactly what she said and what it implied!

More grandiosity

Jordan
... “Axe the Tax” was completely irresponsible, placing local politics over the health of the entire planet. Not that Campbell’s carbon tax is going to save the planet by itself; but considering just how close we are to running out of time on addressing climate change, any step in the right direction is important. Like it or not, the carbon tax IS a step – and one that many experts have suggested is a necessary part of climate action. Furthermore, it’s quite likely that if this election had been lost on the carbon tax issue, no politician would have been brave enough to bring it up again anytime soon. This would be fine if we had a lot of time on our hands to sit and ponder better ideas...but we don’t. I’ve always been an NDP supporter in the past, but I say shame on James for playing politics with the future of humanity.

People need to remember that this was a provincial election in a jurisdiction that houses less that produces about 0.2% of the world's GHGs and houses far less than 0.1% of the world's population. Other environmental issues were, in this context, of far greater importance.

You carbon tax lovers......

You are all fools,you don`t get it do you,carbon taxes,cap n trade,buy an offset,you are all so hung up on these...........

Useless climate initiatives,you know what makes a diffrence,the little guy converting his house,that makes a difference,creating 50 giant ROR for power export to California doesn`t help the problem,it allows Cali to bring in 10 million more people!

Now where was I,oh yea,the fucking carbon tax............

If there is anything to global climate change,if there is,all these schemes,carbon taxes,cap n trade have done nothing to reduce carbon,anywhere,so all you snot nosed Suzukites and you sorry bunch of Goregushers are doing is......

Wasting precious time playing with the corporate con men,meanwhile the sand continues through the hourglass and.....

Tic toc tic toc......nothing changes the ice melts the carbon builds and the carbon tax is now at 15 cents and your refund is getting larger.............

Ka-fucking-boom,game over......Talk to you later,remember the carbon tax when your towing your 800 hp lake boat on your way Kelowna...........Losers!

Jordan

Everyone knows Suzuki has fought hard for the environment in his lifetime. The NDP, formerly the CCF has fought twice as long for human rights and has been the political arena's biggest environmental supporter as well. But the BCNDP did not go out of its way to discredit Suzuki, until he decided he was going to make an example of the BCNDP for Gordon Campbell's Liberal gov't.

I am willing to bet that Suzuki has been used as a pawn by certain Liberal supporters who could careless about his ultimate reputation. It is clear Suzuki is a passionate man, but his passion has been compromised for a political party that has shown itself to be only concerned for its own fortunes. In the end, Suzuki is just another one of their discredited sacraficial lambs.

As for James playing politics, what would you have her do, after all she is a politician. If Suzuki cannot handle himself in the hustle and bustle of BC politics, then he should not have made himself a target and a fool of himself. His bed, he made it, now he can lie in it.

..and your assumptions, G West?

You haven't explained your earlier leap of logic that people like me "& others too numerous to mention" are Liberal supporters. Is that what you meant or not?

Tieleman is a spin doctor as well as a journalist and pundit. I expect people in that camp to be able to take some heat and not whine on the Tyee - while pretending to be above it all - that someone yelled at them because they "demonized" [crafty use of quotes] them or ...whatever. As I said, it's a waste of space here.

Do you really need to diss Doris Lessing with ageist comments, though? I confess I haven't read her recent work; I read "Prison" when I lived & worked in Nicaragua 1985-86. It made a lot of sense then and it seems painfully more accurate now, especially reading this thread.

When you told nechakogal (like the River up past me, not "netchako") to go to Las Vegas and "Pay a little extra and you can enjoy the 'coalition' package and fire all the guns available (including fully automatic weapons) at lithographs of Osama bin Laden and assorted terrorists," it sure sounded like another of your leaps of logic, this time implying some kind of jingoistic or militaristic motive to someone spoofing this whole page. The innuendo seemed pretty clear.

I really don't care if people love or hate Suzuki. Like nechakogal, I'd just rather read more substantial "journalism" in the Tyee. Night night.

Saltery Bay

"Talk to you later,remember the carbon tax when your towing your 800 hp lake boat on your way Kelowna."

Hey, we can do that now, Campbell and Suzuki have fixed the global warming thing.

All we need to do is pay the 2 cent a litre guilt tax and then find a boat launch for our 28' Bayliner with twin V8s that uses more gas per hour than Costa Rica.

Unprincipled vote grab

In my opinion, "Axe the tax" was an unprincipled vote grab. I would have voted NDP if they had said, "We need both a carbon tax and cap-and-trade. We'll keep the carbon tax but restructure it to fix its flaws." As it was, I voted Green instead. At least the Greens supported STV, unlike Bill Tieleman. First-past-the-post ensures that the Liberals and New Democrats have a cozy little scam going: one party gets power for a few years, then the other one does, and everyone else is locked out -- typically not getting so much as a single seat.

Well Said Nics

"If Suzuki cannot handle himself in the hustle and bustle of BC politics, then he should not have made himself a target and a fool of himself. His bed, he made it, now he can lie in it.'

IMO, this is the crux of it. I thought what Bill wrote was relatively tame. I've read much worse things said about Tieleman on Tieleman's own blog. You don't see Campbell or James publicly lose their shit because they don't like what a columnist or commentator says about them (privately may be another matter).

I like what Suzuki has done for the planet, but on this issue he needs to step back, take a deep breath and count to ten. If he can't handle the criticism and scrutiny of public life maybe he shouldn't be doing it. This is politics, after all, not a race to crown The Greatest Canadian.

As it's been said already, "If you can't stand the heat..."

I'd like to hear from Suzuki

What chance? What price?

biscotti

1) I think that David Suzuki going 'postal' in an unprovoked 'personal' attack at a public function is newsworthy;
2) I think people have a right to know that someone who is the object of near-idolatry in certain parts of the country has such a tendency toward megalomania combined with a very short fuse;
3) I think anyone - you, Suzuki, the executive director of the Foundation and so-called progressive voters are deeply, deeply deceived if they think the Campbell Tax is a positive and progressive initiative;
4) I suspect virtually no one making arguments against the NDP climate-change position have read Bill 37 and its regulations - I have;
5) I suspect the so-called experts who call Campbell's pander a progressive move have not studied Pigovian Taxes and their shortcomings and that they are - especially on comment boards like this - all reading from the same playbook; and most important of all,
6) Those who have subsumed all of the complex issues at work in this culture and this society and come up with a formula which says that all of the utterly disastrous things Gordon Campbell has brought down upon this province are somehow negated by one phony money laundering tax deserve to shoulder the responsibility for the next 4 years - welcome to it.

As for the rest of your post, I won't be drawn into it - I won't be shooting spitballs or anything else at your virtual image either. I'm just sorry that someone who otherwise has seemed calmly rational and thoughtful is so far off the track (in my view) in this case.

And further, I'm not really interested in discussing this further with anyone who tries to shift the blame for Suzuki's bad behavior onto the man who reported it.

One other thing, people who post the kind of thing netchakogal did invite being characterized as birds of a feather with certain war-mongering and not lamented former leaders….

... two earlier stories that help explain ...

Here are links to two earlier stories that help explain Suzuki's explosive hatred for Bill Tieleman and his false claim that Tieleman was "demonizing" him.

Here is a blog item by Tieleman over a year ago, taking issue with several environmental groups who went to Victoria on a publicity mission to praise Premier Gordon M. Campbell's carbon tax. Tieleman's column sticks to the issues and contains no personal remarks.

http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/2008/04/bc-environmental-groups-go-to-victoria.html

Here is coverage of a speech in Nanaimo by David Suzuki during last Fall's federal election. He lumps together the federal Conservative and NDP parties as obstacles to progressive climate policies and denounces Carole James personally, saying he's "ashamed" of her. There is no substantive discussion of carbon tax impacts at all. It's pure party politics, with an emphasis on personalities and imputed motives.

Note the fact that Dion's Green Shift is the main object of praise here; Campbell's carbon tax receives a secondary billing, along with the statement that Suzuki has never voted for him (past tense). I believe this demonstrates that David Suzuki's strategy is one of supporting the Liberal Party of Canada, both federally and provincially, but with emphasis on the former.

http://www.canada.com/nanaimodailynews/news/story.html?id=ba2108f0-a5cb-43d7-a7f2-5edee911e086

Jim Hoggan in Charge, Not Suzuki

In a functioning democracy, this article would be front page news in one of the dailies. But not in BC. We can't have an understanding of how environmental NGO's have slowly been absorbed into the financial elite. And how dare Mr. Tieleman, a journalist, criticize another elite (Dr. Suzuki).

Is this all Dr. Suzuki's fault? I think not. Look to his Foundation, which his name bears, but which he has NO control over. The foundation (or corporation in fact) has done just what so many corporations do: they take on a life of their own; money and balanced budgets are their priority; preferred board members are accountants, lawyers, CEO's and other business people.

Jim Hoggan, the Chairman of the Suzuki Foundation, is a self proclaimed supporter of Gordon Campbell. It's all "business". Environmentalism is well and good, as long as it NEVER thwarts the bottom line.

http://thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/BC-Politics/2009/04/15/SuzukiChairLiberalSupporter/

Dr. Suzuki, who has done so much for society, now in his late 70's, is not in charge. That this great scientist could be boondoggled by the capitalist system is deeply sad, but he is not alone. And he is not to blame for this monstrous system that is gobbling up the world's resources.

more avoidance & unfounded assumptions from G West

G West:
You think this Tieleman piece is newsworthy; I don't. Fine - we disagree on that count.

I would concede that it *might* be a newsworthy piece if it had been written by a third party. As it stands, I believe Bill's version here belongs in the blogosphere, not on the Tyee.

I don't need you or anyone else to agree with me on this. This is simply my opinion.

However, you still haven't told me where it is that I have said that I "think the Campbell Tax is a positive and progressive initiative" or where I say I am "against the NDP climate-change position" or why I am a Liberal supporter. Or where I say I'm a DSF supporter or adorer.

I'm really having difficulty understanding these assumptions of yours, considering I campaigned for and voted for our excellent NDP candidate in Cariboo North, Bob Simpson, and I think you know this already. I have put in plenty of time opposing the Campbell government and its policies, especially in our region. What gives?

btw I haven't actually blamed Tieleman for Suzuki's bad behaviour, either. Where, pray, did I say that??

If you are going to cast aspersions on my political beliefs and actions, then either back up your assertions or withdraw them.

Idiots

Read the story on the right,coastal health has to pay(the province)millions in carbon tax and offsets?
There is no such thing as a offset or carbon nuetrol....
Everything has a carbon footprint,planting a tree is not a carbon offset,plantlife grows on its own whereever the land is suitable........

Vanoc recently announced that they gave 5 million dollars to :Offsetters: (a new carbon offset company)for making the games carbon nuetrol,again another impossibilty....

I googled up :Offsetters: from what I gather they have done but ONE OFFSET......

They gave millions of dollars to LAFARGE CEMENT -to convert their power source.....

What a fucking scam,find a polluting company,like say a cement plant,get Vanoc or joe public or say a health authority to pay millions to :Offsetters: or to someone else ..........
And they take this money,give it to Lafarge cement,Lafarge gets millions of free upgrades,:Offsetters gets millions to implement the plan,the publi gets the bill.......
meanwhile Lafarge cement keeps on polluting.......

Let me put it another way,lets say I was burning brush and trees,lots of brush and trees,lets say I am making a 1000$ a day burning trees,:Offsetters: can pay me 1000$ a day to stop burning,I stop burning there and go burn somewhere else.

Cap n trade/offsets/carbon taxes have failed around the world,emmisions are rising,so I say let the fucking world BURN,Suzuki,Gore,and you pathetic DSF fans are making matters worse........

All you fools are doing is playing footsie with corporate America,shuffling game pieces around,moving money,paying companies to stop polluting in one area,while at the same time they start polluting somewhere else............

How many of you want to play the game? How about Canadians on masse start burning garbage,burning stumps,parking lots full of cars idling away and........

We fill out one of :Offsetters: forms outlining how much polluting we are doing and what it will take for us to stop polluting and wait for the money to be given to us to stop,we move are pollution elsewhere and the game goes on........

So go-ahead fools,enjoy your game of corporate footsie because of you fools we will NEVER get a real solution,time to end the hide the pea shell game,time for real solutions and the Campbell Gas tax n Cap n Trade are not it..........

There is only one solution(goverment cap reductions getting stricter and stricter every year)anything else is a sad joke...

So stick your FEEL GOOD Campbell carbon refund tax up your ASS

Cheers

biscotti

Nota Bene...the first post addressed to you was also addressed to others

Here's the subject line:

biscotti & others too numerous to mention

Please re-read it and you'll see the only part of the post specifically addressed to you was relative to the remark I referenced.

If you don't support the Campbell Tax - great.

and here's the part I objected to

The rest of my post was addressed to 'others too numerous to mention'.

OK

And, as Jeffrey J notes above, I'm in total agreement that this kind of public shaming on Suzuki's part ought to be front and centre in every organ of the MSM. The fact those same "institutions" didn't bother to cover it - or cover the break in at Bill's Office some months ago - is interesting too.

Suzuki

I am a Green supporter. First of all take your "well you got Campbell elected" and go piss up a rope. I voted for the party whose platform I liked best, deal with it losers.

There are 2 ways the NDP can get my support:

1. Be green enough.

2. Support vote reform so that I can indicate my preference for the NDP over the Liberals - in 2nd place behind Green.

FAIL on both counts, thus FAIL at the ballot box.

David Suzuki is a hero. Attacking a hero - makes good sense to who?? Idiotsayswhat? So David Suzuki is a bit of a prima donna - he's earned the right. Guess who looks bad in this article? The hero emotionally reacting to being attacked, or the nobody who goes off and writes a hurting poor me story about it?

I wrote to the Suzuki Foundation expressing my disgust at them basically supporting a party like the Liberals, all their policies considered. It was a bad thing to do, but in the big picture what else could they do? It was a response, not an attack out of nowhere.

"Axe the tax" is fucking RETARDED. More retarded even than no-STV. Unfair? To who? People outside of the city? I am one. To the less than wealthy? I am one of those too. This tax will hurt me more than the suit who rides the multi-billion dollar Skytrain from their penthouse to their corner office. Sure. It will hurt me more - BECAUSE I POLLUTE MORE. You pollute, you pay for it. What the hell is unfair about that? Now maybe me and people like me will take fuel efficiency a little more into account over horsepower when looking at a new car. Maybe look beyond the sticker price of a new furnace and consider a little more a life time of gas bills for it. Etc etc, make me consider the environment by putting it right in my face, affecting my pocket book.

Call it a gas tax, call it a Campbell tax, talk about cents per litre at the pump, play your retarded little word games. It's a *carbon tax* measured in tonnes of carbon dioxide emissions, a tax on everything that emits carbon dioxide. Taking the cost of climate change into account is exactly what is needed. If you dismiss that idea outright then don't be surprised when people smarter than you call you out for it.

I can't believe I've read this much gossip rag bullshit today, 90% of comments included. Grow up people.

mikev

"I am a Green supporter...I voted for the party whose platform I liked best, deal with it losers."

Aren't you the bigger loser? The NDP won almost half the elections on May 12th, the Greens won zero. Deal with it.

"There are 2 ways the NDP can get my support:"

We don't want it, we prefer to get around 42% support instead of 8%. But thanks anyway.

"FAIL on both counts, thus FAIL at the ballot box."

The Greens I assume are "green enough"? And they also support electoral reform. How'd they do?

"Now maybe me and people like me will take fuel efficiency a little more into account over horsepower when looking at a new car."

And those of us for whom a few cents a litre means nothing will continue on as usual. Only the less well-off will have to make the decisions you say you'll start making. In other words, we'll "save the environment" on the backs of the poor. Kinda like raising food prices in order to deal with over population. it won't be Jimmy Pattison missing meals.

"If you dismiss that idea outright then don't be surprised when people smarter than you call you out for it."

I assume you're really smart so why is it a good thing for the environment if food grown in BC becomes more expensive because farmers have to pay carbon taxes while food imported into BC doesn't?

And why is it good for the environment if the cost of transportation in BC drives people to spend their holidays in neighbouring jurisdictions where there is no tax on gas, ferries etc?

no politesse left

puppyg:
"The momentum of human enterprise on Earth is unstoppable." Probably so - but the momentum of the largest corporate polluters on earth is eminently stoppable. Stop fiddling, then.

mikev:
"go piss up a rope." Grow up, then.

Frank:
You are wonderfully charming. Please make me laugh. :)

Mikev

I'll pass your advice on to David Suzuki...he's the one that needs it.

By the way, could you please tell me WHY he's a hero.

He hasn't done ANY science (genetics) for a generation and he makes his beans as the talking head for a show called the Nature of Things which wouldn't exist without the funding of a public institution, the CBC.

Please, enlighten me as to why I should call him a 'hero' because I just can't see it.

mikev: How are the seats in the cheering section?

mikev

There are 2 ways the NDP can get my support:

1. Be green enough.

In my opinion, that's been done. That's the one of the reasons the NDP lost this election. They put actual environmental stewardship ahead of greenwash showmanship, and were punished for it by environmental business interests and the business media.

David Suzuki is a hero. Attacking a hero -
makes good sense to who?? Idiotsayswhat? So David Suzuki is a bit of a prima donna - he's earned the right. Guess who looks bad in this article? The hero emotionally reacting to being attacked, or the nobody who goes off and writes a hurting poor me story about it?

Not quite as funny as the grandiosity posts from some others, but the same basic idea. Little people dare not criticize David Suzuki. Can I be permitted to ask, "Why not?" mikev, have you noticed that the DSF website is as much devoted to stoking one man's image as it is to discussing environmental issues?

I wrote to the Suzuki Foundation expressing my disgust at them basically supporting a party like the Liberals, all their policies considered. It was a bad thing to do, but in the big picture what else could they do? It was a response, not an attack out of nowhere.

What kind of reply did you get? And how was their positioning "a response"? To me, it has all the earmarks of a pre-planned strategy that was well underway as of last Fall's federal election:

http://www.canada.com/nanaimodailynews/news/story.html?id=ba2108f0-a5cb-43d7-a7f2-5edee911e086

DSF - the socio-economic environment really doesn't matter

From Ian Hannington's statement that the minimum wage and other labour laws aren't environmental issues, I guess we can infer that nameplate environmental organizations don't consider the social or economic environment to be of any importance, or to have any impact on the natural environment. Perhaps that attitude explains a great deal of what's happened in the last few years as between ENGOs on the one hand, and social democrats and labour on the other.

If that is the considered position of the DSF, that socio-economic and environmental issues are distinct and separate and that they are only mandated by their donors to talk about the latter, it must be a very new development in their official corporate thinking.

Take for example this press release from the DSF in January of this year. It argues that economic stimulus spending by Ottawa must be tailored to meet environmental as well as macro-economic stabilization objectives:

Green Economic Stimulus Package to Secure our Current and Future Prosperity
http://www.davidsuzuki.org/files/reports/pitch_greeneconomy.pdf

First, Suzuki and DSF have been leaders on the aquaculture issue and have worked long and hard with the Coastal Alliance for Aquaculture Reform and with Alexandra Morton on this issue for years. We have even published reports detailing how closed-containment solutions can be applied. It would only take a brief look at the DSF website to see this. DSF and David have also talked a lot about run-of-river power, and have one of the most rational, science-based positions on this.

So there have been reports on the issues. But that is not what's at issue here. If the DSF is claiming to be non-partisan, or at least to spread its critiques of political parties fearlessly, letting the chips fall where they may, where are the press releases or news stories in which David Suzuki or Ian Bruce condemn the Liberal Party, or say the are "ashamed" of Premier Gordon M. Campbell for something he has said or done?

The answer is simple. Nowhere. The NDP gets that kind of treatment from the DSF, but not the Liberals.

Dunno Ian

I recall your attempt to explain the 'politics' of the executive director of the DSF here at Tyee - don't think that came off very well either.

If Suzuki had wanted to support the NDP publically he could have done it...not that I think he necessarily should have - I'd prefer so called 'scientists' to stay out of direct political action - unfortunately David didn't, neither did Hoggan so pretending you're supporters now is just plain silly.

You weren't and you didn't AND, in so far as that public stand helped re-elect the worst thing for the climate and the environment (ie Gordon Campbell) for a useless money laundry I'd say you're going to wear that.

Sad but true....

I know what your problem is.......

You clowns at the DSF belived the polls,what polls?.......

Greg Lyle(innovative group) --Evi Mustel(Mustel group)--Mr. Bricker(Ipsos reid)--Phil Hocstein(environics)......

You [EDITED.] believed the polls,you know the ones,the polls that put Campbell in by a landslide,there was no way you [EDITED.] were going to back a loser,THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED!
Now you see the election results and your ashamed,Suzuki is ashamed,Jane Sterk is ashamed,your ashamed,why?.......

Because you now realize that with a wee little bit of support,with a little press conference about fish farms,offshore oil n gas,flathead valley,gateway,gas flaring etc etc etc.......

You could of imformed the people,would it have changed the election,I don`t know,5000 voters in in few ridings would have made the difference.........

But no,you believed the bought and paid for media and pollsters and put your [EDITED.] support behind the Liberals,[EDITED.]
DSF you didn`t have to promote any party,you could of at least imformed the brain dead public what the issues were,but no,you just attacked the NDP over a tax that is going to be cancelled anyways.
You are aware that boards of trade and commerce want carbon tax increases stopped,it might not get completely stopped but the carbon tax exemption list is getting longer and longer........

Who has now been exempted,cruise ship,airlines,regional districts,schools,who is getting the biggest refunds? INDUSTRY,truckers are going to be exempted next year as well....

So DSF,you sold your [EDITED.] soul to the devil for a do nothing watered down tax that is going the way of the dodo and has reduced nothing!

DSF.....Suzuki/Hoggan/others,you need to look in the mirror,you need to re-examine your principles,you need a cleansing......

I hope your proud of the slash and burn ministry of enviroment which is getting it`s budget slashed again!

"For what have we become,a mirror image of the beast we fought,consumed and regurgitated and transformed into non-relevance,sometimes we need to get lost before we can find ourselves,when you reach that fork in the road turn around and go back your already lost,truth and integrity doesn`t need a detour"

Quarry bay june 12th/2009

Luke

Nothing but spin Luke,she didn`t say she supports the tax,she said she is not going to fight the tax,she will now attempt to divert the money to something.........

The battle will be about Campbell the LIAR,lying about the deficit,lying about the debt,about BC Rail,the battle will be about integrity,about our debt going from 31 billion to 81 billion in 10 years....

About ferries,cost over-runs,the carbon will be fought by boards of trade and commerce and big business........

Campbell has a choice,promote business/industry or chase it away,I know what choice Campbell will make......

or perhaps you haven`t seen or heard the new list of exemptions on the carbon tax.

Like everything with Campbell and Liberals,smoke/mirrors and lies......

[EDITED. -MODERATOR.]

...

Hardly surprising, Luke, it's a move some say the NDP should have taken from the start... and perhaps they should have. Either way, they didn't like the tax then and they don't like it now, so they'll try to change it.

You're gloating isn't a surprise either. You'd have dogged the NDP if they kept fighting to axe it, you'll dog the NDP now that they'll try to change it and you'd dog the NDP if they whole heartily embraced it.

Besides Luke

Most of us here were against the carbon tax before the NDP decided they were too.

And come to think of it, you said you were against it too. Called it "social engineering".

I guess you've flip-flopped on it about 8 times?

Au Contraire...

As Jed Clampett would say... "You're either 'gin it or fer it."

Same with the Port Mann Bridge twinning flip-flop.

Same with the increase in MLA's salaries flip-flop.

Say one thing before the election and then say something else after the election to fool the electorate.

Is the BC NDP based upon "principle" or is it just being "opportunistic"??

Most reasonble people would come to the latter conclusion, but I digress.

When Carole James says that the carbon tax "is here to stay, it's here to stay.

Better start lookin' for a new political vehicle .... all of you die-hard anti-carbon tax folk.

Some more fallout from Carole's flip-flop today:

http://www.desmogblog.com/bc-ndp-leader-accepts-bc-carbon-tax-bravo-carole-james

http://www.vancouversun.com/Health/unveils+shadow+cabinet+Carole+James+axes/1686726/story.html

That's it folks. Time to move on.

They Lost

Frank

News flash. The NDP lost an election they could have easily won if they had better leadership, better advisors and thus better policies and campaign strategies. The whole thing was just painful to watch.

It is pathetic how they are trying to blame the lost on anyone but themselves. Just stop making excuses and win the next election already.

Really a Stretch

Frank

"And why is it good for the environment if the cost of transportation in BC drives people to spend their holidays in neighbouring jurisdictions where there is no tax on gas, ferries etc?"

Congrats on the silliest argument of the day prize. Europe has much higher gas taxes than here. That hasn't seemed to hurt tourism there at all. People come to a place for the experience. The cost is less of a concern. And further more, the carbon tax would add very little to the price of a vacation here.

Anyway, the carbon tax should have been used to pay for public transit. Tourists do ride the SkyTrain and bus if they are available.

[EDITED. -MODERATOR.]

[EDITED.]

As for James's position - big deal. Why would she continue to flog a dead horse for the idiots who didn't vote for change? Did you not hear that the election is over and the Campbell Liberals won?

I guess you don't remember me posting here months and months ago that I would have had a hard time to not support a carbon tax if its proceeds did something positive to reduce GHG? If she can get Campbell to reverse his revenue neutral pander to his rich buddies so much the better - but don't hold your breath. It ain't likely to happen.

I think you'll note Frank said much the same thing - not that I expect you'll acknowledge it.

[EDITED.]

Faux pas

Of all the stupid moves James could have made, this is among the dumbest. If she had a change of heart, she would have been far better off just letting the gas tax issue fade away.

I am now more than convinced that her advisors on strategy are drawn from those who think like Dan Miller.

And no, Buccaneer Bay, the report I just heard on CBC Radio clearly stated that she now supports the tax.

So sad, it's like watching a loved one succumbing to Altzheimer's disease.

bullshit

Maybe you could get luke to explain how well Carole James campaigned – he knows all about the polling and the trend lines…..

There is no evidence this is the case - the NDP vote went up - more in fact than the Liberal vote did - it was a close thing but the ignorant voters outnumbered the smart ones and we all get to suffer through another 4 years of Campbell.

All of this blame for Carole James is dishonest and pathetic - BC is - almost all the time - a sad and hopelessly right wing place.

Without the scenery and the natural beauty it would be unlivable: Give Campbell a few more years and it will be.

ME2

I doubt it my friend - I think saying you want to change the tax is not co-equal with saying you support it in its present form.

On the other hand, perhaps she's been reading the comments section at Tyee and she's convinced that people like Suzuki are really NDP supporters...

Luke

As Jed Clampett would say... "You're either 'gin it or fer it."

And you've been both. You sometimes say you're against it and sometimes criticisze others who are against it. As Jed Clampett would say, "Sh*t or get off the pot".

"Say one thing before the election and then say something else after the election to fool the electorate."

Are we talking about Liberal budgeting now?

"Is the BC NDP based upon "principle" or is it just being "opportunistic"??"

You still have yet to provide a single principle of the Liberal party in spite of me asking you repeatedly.

"When Carole James says that the carbon tax "is here to stay, it's here to stay."

It doesn't matter what she says, she's not in a position to make it stay or go away.

"Better start lookin' for a new political vehicle .... all of you die-hard anti-carbon tax folk."

Why's that? You didn't when you disagreed with the Liberal party's carbon tax. But I digress.

Suzuki goofed by supporting

Suzuki goofed by supporting the Liberals.

Tieleman goofed by helping destroy STV.

NDP goofed by not supporting the carbon tax.

Is there anyone in BC politics who isnt a goofball?

rac

"News flash. The NDP lost an election they could have easily won if they had better leadership, better advisors and thus better policies and campaign strategies."

And better voters too I guess? Seems to me that according to Mustel Carole James ran one of the greatest campaigns in western political history. You may recall she was 17% back such a short time ago.

"Just stop making excuses and win the next election already."

Why do you care? You didn't vote for them anyway.

"The cost is less of a concern. And further more, the carbon tax would add very little to the price of a vacation here."

Ah ha, so according to you the carbon tax doesn't change behaviour after all. Does this count as a "eureka" moment?

"Tourists do ride the SkyTrain and bus if they are available."

So flying to Vancouver and then riding the bus during their vacation reduces CO2? What a cool argument.

How it is

First, Readers Digest makes David "z" main man number one in Canada--another pr survey--David Z says he hopes 'people aren't mad because he takes money from corporations'.

David 'Z' did lots of work and deserves respect with environment--however he is finished now---as is the mainstream that presents news as the embodiment of personalities they control---it is murdering the province--and our ability to grow--.

I wish I were benevolent enough to say I wasn't waiting to let the jackals and vultures from picking these folks bones--that begins from this article forward--who fills the vacuum we will see--but no entity has a hold on the direction of news, particularly political news.

David "S" really was a great environmentalist--I love his nature shows--but--we need new blood---new real bastards who know how to fight.

William Cutty

SCE Robbins Research...

Always good to see ya post for a little interjection of humour.

Anyhooo.... a well-known poster, "Stockholm", on the left-wing Babble forum recently made this commentary about your alleged firm during the Nova Scotia election:

http://www.rabble.ca/babble/atlantic-provinces/breaking-news-ndp-majority-predicted

Now fess up. We all wanna know "your secret formula" ;)

The Hot Air

Many thanks for the ranting. We knew the divisions would be nasty. Glad to see Gwest folding his hand and spinning around simultaneously. "As for James's position - big deal. Why would she continue to flog a dead horse for the idiots who didn't vote for change? Did you not hear that the election is over and the Campbell Liberals won?

I guess you don't remember me posting here months and months ago that I would have had a hard time to not support a carbon tax if its proceeds did something positive to reduce GHG? "

Do you want me to call Carole, Garth, and tell her you're onside too now? If we can get Gordon to devote a few bucks for a few bikes will you promise to kiss and make up?

realisticman

"We knew the divisions would be nasty"

What divisions?

Frank You are one of the

Frank

You are one of the worst debaters I have ever encountered. How about using just a bit of logic every once and a while?

What are you talking about R/Man?

If the Campbell Tax actually had been designed to 'do' something to address GHG it would have been a real tax and it would have been hard not to support it.

I posted words to that effect here at Tyee months ago...at the same time I acknowledged that Chairman Harper had done two things I also gave him credit for.

If you don't believe that either, you can check with happy because he and I had an extended discussion about it at the time.

I'm not onside - Campbell has a majority - he won't change anything because Carole James says he should.

[EDITED. -MODERATOR.]

By the way, the thread is about the RANTING of David Suzuki - or did you miss that too?

rac

"You are one of the worst debaters I have ever encountered. How about using just a bit of logic every once and a while?"

I'll take that to mean you can't find an argument. Thanks for coming out rac, I appreciate the entertainment.

And if you ever want to debate the merits of the carbon tax, no problem, anytime. But bring a lot of friends.

rac

I think Frank's logic is impeccable.

Carole James ran a near-perfect campaign and almost defeated a much better financed and media backed incumbent's campaign.

She lost, at least in part, because a great many male voters in the province are died in the wool misogynists who would rather have a convicted male crook for their premier than a principled team player who is a woman.

Nothing whatever to do with the phony Campbell Tax.

The flaw with the Tyee--is

The flaw with the Tyee--is the circular arguments of the Luke's and his friends--alias Gordon Campbell and "Stockholm" Colin Hansen.

When you use an alias to be funny or sarcastic it is meaningless.

It's not even good baiting. Tieleman plays--I play--those who use our names--our efforts--we matter--this is just bad Canadian journalism.

Brenner's charity comes to my site a week ago--he's gone today. U.S. FCC comes to me site a week ago--Black gets no bail---one day if these faggity weasels who have no name want to meet--I will explain how influence works.

Man to sissy

wayfarer

Don't hold your breath - Campbell is congenitally disinclined to be fair - it's unlikely anything will change and 'revenue neutral' is not a tax - it's a money laundry.

James's stand on the Campbell Tax was principled and correct - and it had nothing whatever to do with the fact that the NDP couldn't overcome the media and a 17 point deficit.

I don't like to fight with my friends but the idea that the Campbell tax is either effective or good is absurd. It is nothing but a shell game to suck in phony enviros...people like David Suzuki I'm afraid to say.

Unless you believe people are means and not ends in themselves - and if you believe that, you belong in Gordon Campbell's camp now - why wait?

Frank - Epilogue

You are absolutely correct. It's social engineering and useless social engineering at that.

And Tieleman was absolutely correct:

The carbon tax was the NDP's electoral gift from Campbell, which resulted in the close race. I will repeat again, Lib voters were disenchanted and stayed home in droves. REALLY.

Personally, climate change just isn't on my radar, but that's just me.

I have the occasion, during the summer months, to putt around in an Italiano burro rope-pulled by 660 of those critters that both you and your daughter ride. ;)

As Mad Magazine's Alfred E. Neuman would say: "What, me worry?". :D

Luke

"The carbon tax was the NDP's electoral gift from Campbell, which resulted in the close race. I will repeat again, Lib voters were disenchanted and stayed home in droves. REALLY."

And now it looks like Carole is going to throw away the policy that made it a close election. Next election Carole will be 20% back, as she was before she opposed the tax. I wonder where that NDP support will go? Obviously it can't go Liberal or Green.

G West, you in, or out?

G West, I know Carole's concession to the carbon tax today must cause you all sort of conflict and confusion, but you need to decide your place in the future of this debate. Are you with Carole and the rest of us non-Liberals who want to make this carbon tax better, stronger and more effective? Or are you going to ride the benches for this game and continue making sour grape juice?

I hope you're with your leader on this fight, because I think you're a smart guy and have much to offer. Are you able to overcome your partisanship and find a way to work together, find common ground, on this one?

Frank...

And there is the other part of the Lib conundrum. Campbell himself... a negative lightning rod since the get go in 2001.

Once he's gone (hopefully replaced by Dianne Watts) the anti-Campbell vote that drifted over to the NDP (mainly female voters) will re-align itself.

To put it succinctly, the carbon tax and Campbell were the Libs boogeyman in 2009. ;)

Luke

I know, that was obvious.

All politics all the time....

A great observation, ME2.

In a few years...

...the fad might be passé. Sunspots are probably just as, or probably more important.

NOAA's consensus is for a substantial peak in 2013:

http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/SolarCycle/

Luke

Gordon really wants to do positive things about health-care and he's given it to Falcon. If together they succeed then Kevin may well want the top job and he could get in Diannes's way.

Huh........ ?

"Gordon really wants to do positive things about health-care [sic] and he's given it to Falcon". Thanks for that. I needed a good laugh.

"better and stronger!" Does that mean more equitable?

wayfarer

G-West, Rod, Bill Tieleman et al, I look forward to future, constructive debate on how we can all support Carole in helping to make this carbon tax better and stronger!

What does "better and stronger" mean in the context of tax policy? Does that mean a higher rate?

Does it mean more equitable, or does it mean more regressive if the rate rises considerably?

I haven't changed my mind on this tax one bit, but the public had a chance to defeat it and decided, perhaps without too much thought, to support the Government that instituted it. So the question, as a practical matter, was decided on May 12th. However, in a few weeks when the rate goes up another two cents or so, just as prices are rising because of the summer driving season, we'll see if the apathetic public is still apathetic.

What course would you recommend for the BC Liberal Govt if, come July and the next increase in the carbon tax, there are widespread protests from consumers and businesses?

The carbon tax, as it stands isn't going to accomplish anything

in this world. All it will do is make it more expensive for everyone to operate. At least have it pay for public transit. Why would Carole keep beating a dead horse by sticking with the position? Those who bothered to show up to vote sent a pretty clear message that they didn't, as a whole, agree with ours.

I'll take Alexandra Morton's knowledge about the BC West Coast long before David Suzuki's being as how she lives on it.

Voting Green was a vote for the Liberals. Regardless of how the Greens try to defend it. They did it knowing full well they had no hope to elect an MLA and were in fact, helping the Liberals get re-elected. Good job, Greens!!

It is the height of rudeness to corner and yell at someone at a public function, regardless of who you are. And some of the posters seem to think that David S. is "god" and therefore beyond reproach. Hooey!!

wayfarer

My position is entirely clear.

It shouldn't require any further explication.

The way to address the situation was to elect an NDP government - something a lot of the folks who seem to like the Campbell tax and nothing else about his regime forgot on May 12.

Carole is the leader of the opposition - she has NO POWER under the current system.

If you consult the Campbell record on approving opposition motions and amendments from the last two governments you may begin to understand the problem.

As long as the Campbell Tax remains in its current form I will oppose it and nothing in Carole James's statement leads me to believe she will do anything different than that.

The fact is that anyone who thinks the Campbell Tax, as currently written, is effective, good or will do anything to address GHG is deluded or ignorant.

Sadly, a lot of nominally intelligent people seem to fit that category.

Sad, but true.

Might I suggest you research Pigovian taxes, read some Keynes and general economics, learn about inelastic demand curves and brush up on your Kant. Because all you’re doing is pushing idle spin and purblind lies my friend.

Then we'll talk. Until then, those who believe that Bill 37 is anything but a costly con job are, frankly, out of their minds.

And no, I'm not at all troubled by Carole James's speech. I don't SEE it as a concession either - she's been trying to get Campbell to see reason since she was first elected to the house. I wish her good luck with that, but it's not going to happen.

There was one way to change things and the people of the province blew it.

Sorry but enjoy your Campbell Tax - hope you'll be man enough to acknowledge it hasn't done a single thing to address the situation you're putatively so concerned about.

Welcome to the monkey house.

Carbon tax

Even if the carbon tax is no longer revenue neutral and instead the money goes into child poverty programs, its still a bad idea.

That groan you heard was Tommy Douglas turning over in his grave after hearing the NDP is going to embrace Peter Pocklington's ideas on flat taxes.

sunshine coast girl, you're right.

The carbon tax isn't very effective as it is. And what makes this whole "debate" so disingenuous. Suzuki never defended this tax - he criticized James for campaigning against any carbon tax.

How many times do you have to repeat a lie before people believe it? Not very many, apparently, if those people worship before the altar of the Holy Order of the NDP.

This isn't about Suzuki being beyond reproach it's about the NDP being beyond reproach. Suzuki dared to question your beloved party and so people want to drag him down.

It's funny that when a lot of people here defend Tieleman, they say he's not a politician, he's a journalist. And when people want to drag Suzuki down, they say he's not a scientist, he's a journalist.

Funny, isn't it? Tieleman at his best might be as good as Suzuki at his worst?

Sounds about right.

James has admitted it, maybe you can too

James has accepted that the "axe the tax" campaign was a mistake.

Maybe Tieleman, G West and the rest of you can too. It takes some longer than others so don't beat yourselves up.

ReeferMadness

So now you're suddenly a flag-waving Dipper telling the rest of us to get into line. How convenient.

reefer

Suzuki is an entertainer - the host of a program called 'The Nature of Things'; prior to that he founded and hosted a CBC radio show called 'Quirks and Quarks'...I can provide you with a list of his publications then you can tell us how much 'science' he's done lately.

You may not recall, but there was a move some years ago to rescind his tenure at UBC because he wasn't doing much work in the lab or teaching any longer.

Have a look at his CV - and you tell me how much serious science the guy has done since he got into the media.

When was the last time he looked through a microscope at a slide of DROSOPHILA MELANOGASTER..
I don't think he's taught in any zoology faculty since about 1980...perhaps you can check for yourself:

http://www.davidsuzuki.org/About_us/Dr_David_Suzuki/CV.asp

And please note all the wonderful 'media' awards.

You'd think someone with that background would know better, wouldn't you?

And while you're at it, do an academic journals search for recent publications in zoology or genetics by the great man...very interesting.

The Tax

Like I said,she can`t stop the tax,she is not in charge........

Rod Smelser,you are correct,oil is on it`s summer peak run again,july 1st/2009 the price of fuel goes up 5 cents a litre...

2 cents for carbon tax/ 3 cents for Translink,with oil hitting 100.00$ a barrell by then the shouting will be done by the board of trade/chamber of commerce/truckers/industry.......Campbell will kill his own tax..........

Same with ROR/ Campbell`s ROR plan was designed before the world financial meltdown,with Campbell running a 3 billion dollar deficit this year and a 6 billion dollar deficit next year ROR plans will be put on the shelf.
How many Campbell flip-flops(real flip flops)?
BC Rail/HEU/balanced budgets/ministerial accountability/on budget convention center/175 million olympic security/open cabinet meetings/ etc etc etc etc etc.....

David Suzuki is old/tired and confused,he has been informed that there will be no enviromental roundtable/.......
There will be fish farm expansion/pipelines/offshore oil n gas/gateway/coal bed methane.......

Suzuki just can`t bring himself to accept any blame,please disappear Suzuki.....

And for all of you idiots out there......

The NDP lost the election because of big media,spin all you want,the Sun/Province/50 small newspapers/CKNW/Global/shaw/ the entire media dumped on the NDP and they got 22% of the vote compared with 24% for the Liberals,not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Last point--A revenue nuetrol tax,then you get a refund and you clowns think that will work! You are all idiots.......

Let me put it another way.....the bottle deposit fee on a case of beer is 1.20 $ (and you get the money back when you return the bottles)well,do any of you really think you can deter anyone from drinking by..........

Over time you double/triple/quadriple the price of the REFUNDABLE bottle deposit?Well?Well?Well?.........

I Cheers

G West the Kantian

G West:

As long as the Campbell Tax remains in its current form I will oppose it and nothing in Carole James's statement leads me to believe she will do anything different than that.

This is actually a shift for you, West, and you're so flustered by James concession that you don't even see your own shift.

The deduction then is that you are on board with Carole and the rest of us non-Liberals who vow to improve the carbon tax from its current form. That's good. Maybe we can accomplish something now.

And after calling carbon tax supporters deluded and ignorant you suggest:

Might I suggest you research Pigovian taxes, read some Keynes and general economics, learn about inelastic demand curves and brush up on your Kant. Because all you’re doing is pushing idle spin and purblind lies my friend.

Anyone ever tell you that aside from being a blind NDP apologist, you tend to be a condescending, arrogant SOB, too? You think people who support a carbon tax are living in some intellectual cave, while the bright wisdom of Kant and Keynes shines squarely on anti-carbon tax advocates like you? LOL You're too much, G West. But you make me laugh, so no not all a loss. When losing an argument, do some intellectual name-dropping, accuse opponents of not being too stupid to see the truth. Sheesh. This really speaks to both your position and your character.

madness... reefermadness...

"How many times do you have to repeat a lie before people believe it?"

And how many seas must a white dove sail before she sleeps in the sand?

"This isn't about Suzuki being beyond reproach it's about the NDP being beyond reproach."

Well, for me it's about neither: it is about how principled people go about debating or disagreeing with others. Principled people do not believe they have a monopoly on the truth...they present a viewpoint and defend it passionately maybe, but with grace, too...recognizing that 'the truth' is a difficult and amorphous concept to grasp at times...

Suzuki was arrogant and silly, and Tieleman was correct in bringing this forward, in my view. Because the larger question here is that we have a terrible lot of urgent things to have a 'public conversation' about, and it is preferable in a conversation not to have someone weighing in as the arbiter of all things correct. The fact that you try to change my mind about something does not make you a liar...nor does it make it a lie when I, or anyone else, express a belief about priciples or policies.

oh oh

I guess wayfarer just jumped back on the bandwagon.

Anti-Carole zealots

Of course they'll soon find some other reason not to vote for Carole in 4 years.

NDP support is going to go down.

Bullshit

You simply don't know what you're talking about.

Here's James's statement:
"The election is over with and I said the tax is here to stay, now it's our job to make that tax more effective and more fair," she said. "That's the work we'll be doing."

If you're not aware of the record of CEO government relative to consultation and cooperation then you need to get out a lot more.

We live under a FPTP system where the party with a plurality, however small, gets all the toys for 4 years.

If you don't like it, you shouldn't have been supporting the guy who believes in that kind of government.

Time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Carole James was the team player dude - Campbell is the drunk with power autocrat.

And, by the way, wayfarer

Have you actually read Bill 37 and its regs?

C'mon - you can make all kinds of personal ad hominem remarks - to none of which I've responded.

Maybe time to stop calling people names and actually tell us why the Campbell tax didn't reduced GHG emissions one gram during the first year of its existence.

Got you out of a car and onto a bike - did it?

Furthermore, if you did a little research, you'd have found that the scrap-it program actually pays people as much as $1600 to scrap an old gas-guzzler and buy a bike or become a member of a car co-op....and it has bugger all to do with Campbell's money laundry.

Cheers dude, time to get on the right side of this issue....

Seeking common ground, moving forward

VivianLea

Well, for me it's about neither: it is about how principled people go about debating or disagreeing with others. Principled people do not believe they have a monopoly on the truth...

Well said Viviana. I think the obvious truth gets lost in the passion of partisanship, which invariably becomes a passion of dogma. I have renewed respect for Carole James because she seems able to rise above her partisanship on this issue (the carbon tax). With that kind of politic, she could actually justify taking a third run at the Liberals, and a lot of non-NDP green-lefties like me would likely support her.

The real problem I've had in this debate all along are hard line NDPers accusing carbon tax supporters of being 'ignorant' and 'stupid' and 'wrong'. And when pressed to defend their accusations, they split hairs, as G West just did, by appealing to Kant, Keynes and other such non-sequiturs.

Underneath all that, I do appreciate the passion. I just get tired of the dogma. I get the feeling sometimes that some people here spend way too much time splitting hairs in blog comments sections, and not enough time out on the front lines of real change.

As far as I'm concerned, the issue of climate change and the survival of our planet transcends partisan opinion, and as such there needs to be multi-partisan cooperation more than ever. Accepting that your opponent (Campbell) has made a good policy move in the carbon tax does not entail your wholesale endorsement of his government. It means you are being pragmatic and seeking common ground for the bigger solutions. Unfortunately, NDP partisans on this question have reacted, well, as NDP partisans. There have been notable exceptions, people like Gregor Robertson and Mike Harcourt, and now Carole James, who put up a noble fight, but she lost, and is choosing the path of conciliation rather than reactionary politicking. It takes a very courageous leader to admit defeat and move forward like she appears to be doing.

As far as I'm concerned, the debate over the existence of a carbon tax in BC is effectively over, and those who continue to flog that dead horse are part of the problem, not the solution. I plan to let my NDP reps know they have my support in holding the Liberal feet to the fire in making this carbon tax an improved piece of legislation in fighting climate change.

Frank

"Aren't you the bigger loser? The NDP won almost half the elections on May 12th, the Greens won zero. Deal with it."

Gordon Campbell is Premier is he not? You want to argue about who is the *bigger* loser then fill your boots, you're still not winners.

"We don't want it, we prefer to get around 42% support instead of 8%. But thanks anyway."

That's the spirit! SNAFU all good for you I guess.

"The Greens I assume are "green enough"? And they also support electoral reform. How'd they do? "

I did what I felt was right. You know, democracy and all that jazz. If Gordo wants to feel safer, or if the NDP wants to ever get back in power, where else are any extra voters going to come from? If you haven't noticed, neither of you are attracting anything but flies.

"And those of us for whom a few cents a litre means nothing will continue on as usual blah blah etc blah"

Oh no, how will there be any change without the 10% at the top of society pitching in? If Jimmy Pattison doesn't go out and get a smart car then the world is doomed! DOOMED!

Seriously, do you think there is a way around this without the vast majority of the people making changes? That would be a very neat trick, tell me about it please.

"I assume you're really smart so why is it a good thing for the environment if food grown in BC becomes more expensive because farmers have to pay carbon taxes while food imported into BC doesn't?"

I'm no genius, rest assured. But if a rig delivers food into Vancouver from back east, I imagine they will have to stop somewhere in BC and fuel up, and pay tax. But out of the other side of your mouth, you're complaining at the same time that the tax will be ineffective. So where do you really sit?

Maybe if Stephane Dion had gotten a little more support then there would be a federal version of this to balance the playing field.

"And why is it good for the environment if the cost of transportation in BC drives people to spend their holidays in neighbouring jurisdictions where there is no tax on gas, ferries etc?"

I'll just quote rac here:
"Europe has much higher gas taxes than here. That hasn't seemed to hurt tourism there at all."

blindly partisan enviros

"As far as I'm concerned, the issue of climate change and the survival of our planet transcends partisan opinion"

I can't imagine a more blindly partisan response. Telling the rest of us that all that matters is your view on your favourite issue. That to get your vote it doesn't matter what the NDP do as long as they take the same view as you on that one issue. Reminds me of the blindly partisan pro and anti abortion people.

G West

"Please, enlighten me as to why I should call him a 'hero' because I just can't see it."

Why is Suzuki a hero? I thought this had already been gone over:

Amor de Cosmos:
"his role in protecting South Morseby Island and Gwaii Hanaas, Valhalla Park, the Carmanah and Walbran Valleys, the mighty Kitlope, the Stein Valley, the Stikine, the Khutzameteen, the mighty Tatshenshini, Goat Range, the Upper Granby, and many others that I'm not even aware of."

Wayfarer:
"Suzuki is the recipient of Canada’s most prestigious award, the Order of Canada Officer (1976) upgraded to Companion status in (2006), the Order of British Columbia (1995), UNESCO’s Kalinga Prize for science (1986) and a long list of Canadian and international honours.

In 2004, Suzuki was nominated as one of the top ten "Greatest Canadians" by viewers of the CBC. In the final vote he finished fifth and therefore ranked as the greatest living Canadian. Suzuki said that his own vote was for Tommy Douglas who was the eventual winner. (ah, the irony, eh Bill?...)

In 2006, David Suzuki was the recipient of the Bradford Washburn Award presented at the Museum of Science in Boston, Massachusetts.

Not to mention the 22 honourary degrees Dr. Suzuki has been awarded for his work and dedication to science and the environment."

What does it take to impress you man??

mikev

"Gordon Campbell is Premier is he not? You want to argue about who is the *bigger* loser then fill your boots, you're still not winners."

Neither are you mikev. In fact, you're about 39 seats more of a loser.

"That's the spirit! SNAFU all good for you I guess."

And the same right back at ya.

"If Gordo wants to feel safer, or if the NDP wants to ever get back in power, where else are any extra voters going to come from?"

I imagine Gordo will get the votes of disenchanted NDP supporters. Meanwhile NDP support will go down.

"Oh no, how will there be any change without the 10% at the top of society pitching in? If Jimmy Pattison doesn't go out and get a smart car then the world is doomed! DOOMED!"

Thios passes for logic somewhere?

"Seriously, do you think there is a way around this without the vast majority of the people making changes?"

No. And the carbon tax doesn't affect the "vast majority".

"I'm no genius, rest assured. But if a rig delivers food into Vancouver from back east, I imagine they will have to stop somewhere in BC and fuel up, and pay tax."

Meanwhile the farmer has to pay the tax constantly. So who's price is going to go up more?

"But out of the other side of your mouth, you're complaining at the same time that the tax will be ineffective. So where do you really sit?"

In the seat labelled "reality". The tax is not a myth, we've already had it for a year. I don't see our emissions going down or even a trend in that direction.

"Maybe if Stephane Dion had gotten a little more support then there would be a federal version of this to balance the playing field."

WHich would have had our American competitors laughing all the way to the bank.

"I'll just quote rac here:
"Europe has much higher gas taxes than here. That hasn't seemed to hurt tourism there at all.""

Strange, I keep getting emails about 2 for 1 deals on tours in Europe. Travel agents keep telling me prices have never been so good.

wayfarer

I like the way you put this.......

But I would also like David Suzuki to answer the simple question posed by G West and others regarding the failure of the Gas Tax to reduce carbon emissions.

Double foul - as anyone around here will attest

Even my frequent antagonist realisticman.

Don't agree with me if you like, but don't play stupid games.

I have read the Bill.

I have read the Regulations - I have been arguing against this stupid Campbell Tax from the moment it was first discussed here at Tyee and long before the NDP decided to push the 'axe the tax' slogan.

I know for a fact that the minister did not even ‘read’ the regulations before she signed them; I know what went into this bill and where the ideas came from – I know exactly how manipulative the minds were that crafted this bill to do nothing and give the appearance of caring. I know how administratively complex and costly it is…I know why cruise ships and airliners are exempt.

I am not a member of any political party. But I do care about the truth.

In discussions here at Tyee I have posted long sections of Bill 37 and carefully explained why it is a useless piece of legislation that does nothing for an environment I am as concerned about as anyone.

I just don't wrap myself in a green flag and make a scene at public functions.

I have also posted the various economic arguments I've used to make that case. More than once.

I have never once used the kind of lame ad hominem remarks toward someone I disagree with that you've just leveled at me to counter the real facts of the case I've made.

Furthermore, I don't believe you have done the necessary analysis or that you have any understanding of the issue - generally people who resort to calling others names simply don't know what they're talking about.

If you had a case you were, and are, free to make it.

Why haven't you done so?

The Campbell Tax, as presently constituted, will never do anything for the environment and will - as it begins to cut into health care and other budgets - makes things worse for the people governments are actually duty bound to help.

A bad tax - especially one designed to deflect criticism and help ones business friends - is worse than no tax at all.

Frank, it's not just 'enviros'

It's not enviros calling for a non-partisan approach. It's your own leader, Carole James, who remarked right after the election:

“The passion I have for building a pragmatic vision, the passion I have for getting past partisan politics is just the kind of work that needs to occur right now in the province.”

You need to accept your lumps like a man, and move forward gracefully, stop blaming all your faults and political failings on the "enviros" you so loathe.

Rise to a high standard, Frank. You are part of the problem, or solution. Take your pick. Carole envisions a new path. Can you?

Rod Smelser

"Little people dare not criticize David Suzuki. Can I be permitted to ask, "Why not?" mikev, have you noticed that the DSF website is as much devoted to stoking one man's image as it is to discussing environmental issues?"

It looks like the other way around to me. How dare a little twerp like Suzuki say anything bad about the mighty NDP. You seem to think the world will be better off with the NDP in power in BC, than it would be if carbon taxes could get traction in anywhere in North America and actually do something about climate change. My grandchildren will really appreciate your stance.

"And how was their positioning "a response"? To me, it has all the earmarks of a pre-planned strategy that was well underway as of last Fall's federal election:"

You're making my point for me. Suzuki is a long time supporter of carbon taxes. Out of nowhere, the NDP inexplicably comes out swinging against. So he reacts, and calls a spade a spade. And the NDP reaction to the Suzuki reaction (and Suzuki's reaction to that, in the story above) lets people see true colours all around.

Who stinks more? I don't think it's Suzuki, even considering the story we are all commenting on.

rac

Sorry, I don't agree - I've seen Suzuki's CV - it's on prominent view at the foundation's website.

He doesn't fit my definition of hero...Buck Suzuki maybe - but not David.

hero
n. pl. he·roes
1. In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.
2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.
3. A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity.
4. The principal male character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation.

Environmental Elmer Gantrys

sunshine coast girl
And some of the posters seem to think that David S. is "god" and therefore beyond reproach. Hooey!!

I have to admit I am amazed at the ability of these environmental Elmer Gantry's to inspire such vehement and uncompromising devotion. Perhaps that's one of the attributes of a six million dollar a year Foundation with an extensive payroll, choc-a-bloc full of such earnest disciples, all doing very well doing good.

Repeat after me

THE CAMPBELL TAX IS NOT A CARBON TAX...it is a crooked money laundry - it washes cash from folks who can't afford it into the pockets of people who don't need it.

In the process it doesn't affect the production of GHG at all.

It is the perfect rube goldberg creation of a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Absolutely false

ReeferMadness
Suzuki never defended this tax - he criticized James for campaigning against any carbon tax.

Suzuki very definetely defended this carbon tax. He might have wanted to "improve" it in various ways, but he never offered any criticisms on grounds of either equity or efficiency. He relied exclusively on advice from Prof Mark Jaccard, whose company has consulting contracts with the BC Liberal Govt.

How many times do you have to repeat a lie before people believe it?

An excellent question. I couldn't have put it better!

This isn't about Suzuki being beyond reproach ...

Oh yes it is. The Elmer Gantry's of Vancouver's ENGO payrolls and "green" businesses don't like having their inability to walk the talk being discussed, especially by people that have gratuitously smeared because they're personally contemptuous of people with less income and education than themselves.

wayfarer

"It's your own leader, Carole James, who remarked right after the election:"

Carole James has been pushing that button ever since she became leader of the NDP. Why did it take you 2 elections before you noticed it?

"You need to accept your lumps like a man, and move forward gracefully, stop blaming all your faults and political failings on the "enviros" you so loathe."

Kevin Falcon is in charge of health. You and midnightsimon and mikev helped put him there. As mikev would say, deal with it and stop blaming NDPers for the government you supported.

wyafarer: Remember the provincial context and responsibility

wayfarer
Underneath all that, I do appreciate the passion. I just get tired of the dogma. I get the feeling sometimes that some people here spend way too much time splitting hairs in blog comments sections, and not enough time out on the front lines of real change.

It's interesting that you would use the term "dogma" here to describe people who were opposed to the carbon tax on grounds of both equity and efficiency. President Obama's platform specifically rejected a carbon tax in favour of a cap and trade system, yet I don't hear Suzuki and Berman calling him dogmatic, or suggesting that we should his approach is one to be ashamed of. On the contrary, they hold up his programs of enhanced fuel efficiency standards, more R&D funding, etc., as great examples to follow.

I think it's important here to remember the provincial context and responsibility. Global warming, I think it's fair to say, is a global not a provincial problem, and nothing the government of BC does by itself will be of any significance whatsoever in this area. It's up to national governments through treaties and agreements to address an issue of this scale, with sub-national governments following suit when those major decisions have been made. What is up to the BC Govt is the stewardship of those resources over which the provincial government does exercise effective control, water for one.

In this light, putting the carbon tax at the front of the environmental agenda is a deliberate distraction, even a deliberate deceipt on the part of the Liberals and their self-interested and acquisitive allies in the "green" business sector. A clever piece of voter and enviro manipulation, worthy of Karl Rove at his most creative moments.

Frank

"Thios passes for logic somewhere?"

I'm making a heroic effort to follow yours. How about this:

1. Campbell needs to be kicked out of office. Agree 110%.

2. The carbon tax as it currently stands is flawed. Agree 110%. There is no reason to grant exemptions to anybody. Same as there is no reason to give any kind of incentives to gas & mineral exploration. Make those leeches pay the proper taxes.

3. The idea of a carbon tax is wrong. You lose me here.

3a. Nobody else is doing it, so why should we be the first to go over the top? Don't be a pussy. If there is anything that can be done, now, while there is still a functioning "western civilization", then let's fucking do it already. No more decades of meetings and negotiations and reports. If someone leads others may follow.

3b. A tax on consumption disproportionately affects the lower classes. I agree with you here, but I say so what. We're all going to feel pain some way or another eventually. Sacrifices must be made. We all need to pitch in. I'll be furious at the guy who can afford to still drive around in a Hummer too, but the rich are the minority. Let them eat cake.

3c. The carbon tax as it currently stands is innefectual. I agree with you here too. But I kind of like the approach that is being taken, phasing it in slowly and letting the market adjust to the new reality. I've heard it tossed around that it would need to be $1 per litre to have the desired affect. Probably right, but if they smashed us in the face with that today then I might be more on your side. I'd like to see the entire world paying the same rate as in the Nordic countries, like yesterday, but I'm realistic about the need to cushion it at least somewhat. As long as we start doing something, we can tweak it as time goes on.

So what did I leave out? Do we really have that much to argue about? I'm only being snide and sarcastic to fit in around here. I really would prefer to see an NDP government over a Liberal one. I'll offer my .5 cents opinion on how maybe me and people like me could help you, if we could understand what exactly your malfunction is.

How long has the DSF supported carbon taxes?

mikev
You're making my point for me. Suzuki is a long time supporter of carbon taxes.

I don't know how long the DSF was on record as supporting carbon taxes over cap and trade measures. Can you tell me, perhaps provide a source?

It's clear from the press accounts of last year's election that the DSF strategy was in place at both the federal and provincial levels.

Rod Smelser

Is 2007 early enough for you? It was a quick simple Google search:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070422/green_qp_070422/20070422?hub=TopStories

mikev

1. We agree Campbell needs to be kicked out of office. But that wasn't the priority for many people on this site over the past year. What you're asking me to do is let bygones be bygones and all come together now singing kum-bah-yah. Well that isn't going to happen. I'll continue to recall that when the time came people here gave greater priority to having a carbon tax than defeating Campbell. Agree?

2. I agree that the exemptions to cruise ships and such shouldn't be allowed. And I agree no incentives should be given for exploration. But why should hospitals, schools and local farmers not be exempted? What do we gain by hitting them?

3. Because it goes after the wrong people. The people with the lowest incomes are being pushed to change their ways. The lower your income the more the carbon tax will push you to change. That's the reverse of the way I think the world should be run.

3a. Its not about being first as if that was a victory of some sort. Its about the reality that we all still need energy in the same way we all need food and water. We can't reduce our energy consumption below a certain level without it impacting our standard of living. That's what GWest means when he calls it "inelastic". Its why we didn't all stop driving last year when gas hit $1.50. Our society and economy need energy and we will give up other things, even lower our food consumption, before we give up energy.

3b. I hate to go off on a tangent when you're obviously trying to get along and I hope you'll forgive me that this might not be relevant but I do have a point here.

When Timothy McVeigh blew up a gov't building in Oklahoma and killed kids at a daycare the cartoon in the Province was of a masked terrorist type making the V for victory sign while his foot was on a dead little kid and a broken doll.

I kept that cartoon because I too in my younger days, was often disposed toward the same thought processes. Revolution, over turning society, whatever it took to make a better world for all. That sort of thing.

My point is that one should never forget that the ends don't justify the means. We shouldn't be so willing to force sacrifice on others or it becomes very easy to justify anything.

"Do we really have that much to argue about? "

I'm not sure.

Kinda Apropos...

http://erg.environics.net/media_room/default.asp?aID=702

Frank

"I'll continue to recall that when the time came people here gave greater priority to having a carbon tax than defeating Campbell. Agree?"

Somewhat. I would have liked to see Campbell go down. It wasn't just the carbon tax I wanted, but that was one of the biggest issues for me with the NDP. The only time I didn't vote Green was in the last federal election, for the Green Shift. Yeah, I actually voted for that guy.

The thing is, I'd prefer the NDP over the Liberals, but in a perfect world I wouldn't really want them. I have the feeling that they would clearcut every tree I can see from my house if it would help the unions. Just like Campbell would if it would help the corporations. Mean and meaner. Scapping over scraps while time marches on. So you'd have to do something significant to actually get my votes, something that takes balls, something like introducing the first carbon tax in North America (no matter any flaws). I get the feeling that the NDP are just jealous that Campbell felt strong enough to do it, and even madder now that he was right. Could the NDP have done it, if they actually wanted to?

"But why should hospitals, schools and local farmers not be exempted? What do we gain by hitting them?"

I imagine your thinking of local farmers as the little old man driving his tractor over to his chicken coop and having to buy some fertilizer for his crops. While I'm thinking of the massive agribusiness greenhouse burning natural gas by the boat load so we can have nice peppers & tomatoes in February. There is going to be some change in farming whatever we do. Imported foods will become a delicacy, and we will get used to eating in season, no matter what we do.

Schools & hospitals? Yes it's a little silly for the government to collect tax money to pay taxes. But in there somewhere is the cost of administering the tax. If everyone everywhere pays the same tax, that's simple and cheap to operate. There a slope to slide down when you start thinking about who deserves a break. But exemptions for schools and hospitals are a compromise I wouldn't fight against.

cont...

cont...

"The lower your income the more the carbon tax will push you to change. That's the reverse of the way I think the world should be run."

I agree with the sentiment. But the majority will have to change their lives one way or the other. It would be nice if we could force the wealthy to just handle everything for us and continue living our lives as normal. But our way of life is unsustainable. An individual wealthy person has more power for change than I do, but everyone like me together has *massive* power for change. Point us in the right direction and watch us go.

"Our society and economy need energy and we will give up other things, even lower our food consumption, before we give up energy."

WE WILL GIVE UP ENERGY. Peak oil, population growth, developing world - that is all. Let the chips fall where they may, the law of the jungle will sort it out, or do we try to do something about it?

"We shouldn't be so willing to force sacrifice on others or it becomes very easy to justify anything."

Yes there is grave danger there. But I think polls show that this isn't a rabid minority forcing some elite opinion on the unwilling masses. This is entrenched interests trying to avoid any threat to their power. Lobbies working furiously to keep the status quo. Shareholders demanding everything possible be done to maintain corporate profits. Politicians not wanting to rock the boat and get thrown overboard. And the masses of scared people wanting to do what they can. Just a little nudge can help us move in the right direction. Here we go.

LSW - splitting hairs?

According to the graph you posted, support has gone down from the original in 2008.....

mikev

Okay, so you're a true Green and not an "undecided" that the NDP is trying to woo.

"I get the feeling that the NDP are just jealous that Campbell felt strong enough to do it, and even madder now that he was right."

Campbell was right?? I think the jury is still out on that and if I thought he was right why would I vote NDP?

"I imagine your thinking of local farmers..."

The stuff we eat comes from both kinds of farms. And the food is not going to be produced in a more environmentally friendly way somewhere else so I still support local food products and see no reason we should make imported food more competitive.

"But our way of life is unsustainable."

I think its unsustainable regardless of CO2 emissions. A carbon tax won't save habitat, won't save rivers, won't save the oceans etc. There's other areas where our society is unsustainable besides emissions.

"WE WILL GIVE UP ENERGY. Peak oil, population growth, developing world - that is all. Let the chips fall where they may, the law of the jungle will sort it out, or do we try to do something about it?"

But we're not. We're going to dig up every last drop of oil we can and burn it regardless of carbon taxes. Our "green" premier is expanding roads and ports to move more goods and people. He wants "the world" to fly to Vancouver for a 2 week holiday. He wants to use our rivers to sell energy abroad. He wants to look for more oil offshore, he wants more pipelines and tanker traffic.

And yet this forum saw more criticism of the NDP's policies than it did the premier's. Carole James has seen that and thrown up her hands and said, okay, we'll do the same as the premier and hopefully be as popular for it. Unlike wayfarer I see that as a step back, not a step forward. I think the NDP had better environmental policies but people voted for symbolism instead.

mikev

I have no objection to this:
"then let's fucking do it already."

But I do take exception to this:
"Don't be a pussy"
and this:
"something that takes balls"

Now, I have been known to be rather fresh in my language, but it is not directed personally. In other words, as TBarnston once memorably said, let's call a spade a fucking shovel, (or something close to that) but let's not call each other names.

Because the discussion is so much more elevated that way, don't you think? :)

Sorry mikev

The sentiments are admirable - the reality is something quite different.

Things can be done to change the way we use energy - I pointed out up the thread here one really popular initiative the Campbell Liberals came up with and not a single one of you took the trouble to check my facts.

The 'SCRAP-IT' program is getting vehicles off the road - it's giving people a chance to choose to surrender their gas-guzzler and become a member of a car co-op or, if they choose, to get almost 2 thousand dollars to purchase a new bike.

The problem with the Campbell Tax is rooted in the design of the initiative itself - as Frank and I have tried to point out, it treats people as means to an end - not as ends themselves. It's the whole point behind Kantian philosophy...if you want me to support a measure to reduce GHG then treat me like an intelligent being, someone with the power to analyze and make a wise decision and then give me some viable options to HELP me do that.

Instead, the Campbell tax makes a huge dumb-show of collecting piles of money spinning it around in a kind of cream separator and spewing it back out in dribs and drabs.

Nothing is accomplished - no more cars are added to the Sky Train; housing still remains far too costly for working people to live near their places of business; not a single plumber or electrician or delivery guy has been assisted to convert his F-250 to burn natural gas or propane.

Instead, another bureaucracy has been created to collect the tax; ensure that it's properly accounted for and balanced for each reporting period and then it gets turned into nice little Pavlovian cheques to be sent out with GST refunds quarterly attached to a facile message from the Premier.

There are lots of problems to be solved - this isn't the way to go about it - and, before you'll get any cooperation from the likes of me, you people are going to have recognize that you just haven't made a case for what you're supporting.

We will NOT be giving up energy any time soon if people of good will can't start to recognize reality for what it is.

ok ok

"Campbell was right?? I think the jury is still out on that and if I thought he was right why would I vote NDP?"

I mean that Campbell felt he was in a strong enough position to do something like introduce a carbon tax, and the election proves he was right about that. Sure the jury is still out on if it was a good idea or not, I'm optimistic, but he *was* able to pull it off.

"We're going to dig up every last drop of oil we can and burn it regardless of carbon taxes."

Yes. That is the problem. Plus turn it into plastic and bury it / dump it in the ocean. People should try to adjust before gas hits $5/litre, base price without any taxes, and on up and up. There will be those who prepare, and those who think fusion reactors will suddenly sprinkle the landscape pumping out energy "to cheap to meter" so why worry.

"And yet this forum saw more criticism of the NDP's policies than it did the premier's."

That is a shame, but otherwise it would be a bit of preaching to the choir, no? (minus the odd troll hanging around who wouldn't be affected anyway) A bunch of "yeah dude, for sure that's nasty but what about this" and so on. I mean we all know who the bad(dest) guy is, we're talking about how to go about coming up with a party that can beat him. I love the journalism going on here, keep those articles shining light on Liberal shenanigans coming, but in the discussion in the comments, don't you think that now is the time to talk about what to do post defeat? What went wrong and what to try differently?

VivianLea - You're absolutely right, and I apologize. I stand by my sentiment, but will try to word it more sensitively in the future.

First the Carbon Tax... Now IPP's....

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/06/12/bc-ndp-libs-carbon-tax.html

Kinda late now that the election is all but over.

We're gonna see a lot more flip-flops like this down the road. Count on it. ;)

mikev

Still no actual response to the 'arguments' I've raised.

How come?

A bad tax is worse than no tax at all.

And this one could have been the creation of Tony Soprano and Paulie Walnuts.

Luke

I find it kind of troubling that you and all the enviros aren't shouting from the rooftops how great the NDP are now that they've changed their positions.

"Kinda late now that the election is all but over."

What? I hate to tell you this Luke, but it IS over. I hope you still weren't planning to go vote.

mikev: Read your link; global warming identified in 1980s

mikev
Is 2007 early enough for you? It was a quick simple Google search:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070422/green_qp_070422/20070422?hub=TopStories

Well, 2007 is relatively recent, since as Suzuki himself says in the story global warming had been identified as a issue by the late 1980s.

Luke

By the way, any word yet from James on whether they now agree with his child poverty policies?

For some reason I wouldn't be surprised.

mikev: I should have known

mikev
I have the feeling that they would clearcut every tree I can see from my house if it would help the unions.

When it comes right down to it, it's the same old, same old. The talking points are just talking points, the real motivators are in the realm of political sociology.

Premier Wilf Hanni???

So the Liberals, Greens and NDP will now share 48% of the vote.

I wonder where the 47% of BCers who are against the carbon tax will go?

It'll be fun seeing how much support the NDP has lost when the next poll comes out.

A man afraid to use his own real name

Luke Skywalker
We're gonna see a lot more flip-flops like this down the road. Count on it. ;)

A man afraid to use his own real name, yet who comments sarcastically about other people's real-name facebook profiles, is clearly in a position to disparage yet other people's resolve and consistency. Something that could only happen in the PAB universe know as The Best Place on Earth.

As my wife says, "it really sucks the big one".

Frank...

I ain't an enviro. I'm a social liberal focused upon economic growth, employment, and prosperity.

The IPP decision was the proper, non-ideological move for the NDP and fits right in with Harcourt's statement from 1995:

I'm also with the Harcourts and Dan Millers of the centre-left world. If IPP's wanna spend ~$5 billion and employ everyone from engineers to construction trades... great!

The risk of failure of a fall monsoon season and a spring freshet lies on their financial shoulders, not BC Hydro's.

What's poor Rafe Mair now gonna do? ;)

Nahhh... I just mailed in my ballot for the 2013 election, just to be on the safe side. That's all.

As a matter of fact, I'm a little edgy that when I take a wander into North Korea this fall, the "Dear Leader" (ya know the one with the amazing coif and high heels) just might decide to throw me into a re-educational work camp that'll last post-2013. :D

G West

"Still no actual response to the 'arguments' I've raised."

I'm still here, sorry to keep you waiting. Other things to get done and whatnot.

"The 'SCRAP-IT' program is getting vehicles off the road"

Yes and the EHF fees are nice as well. See, both parties have a bit of green in them, thanks to people like me.

"if you want me to support a measure to reduce GHG then treat me like an intelligent being, someone with the power to analyze and make a wise decision and then give me some viable options to HELP me do that."

OK. If you want to make the "wise decision" that it's alright to pollute, then go ahead, but the rest of us have decided that we're not going to let the cost to the rest of us be hidden anymore. It's going to be in everyone's face in the form of a carbon tax.

"Nothing is accomplished"

A carbon tax has been accepted. Now we can play with it. Now other jurisdictions can follow suit.

"Instead, another bureaucracy has been created to collect the tax"

Yes! Done and done. Now let's work with it.

"ensure that it's properly accounted for and balanced for each reporting period and then it gets turned into nice little Pavlovian cheques to be sent out with GST refunds quarterly attached to a facile message from the Premier."

I don't think there should be refunds. I don't think there should be exemptions. I do think there should be negotiation and compromise and improvement.

"There are lots of problems to be solved - this isn't the way to go about it"

Go about what? What isn't the way?

"before you'll get any cooperation from the likes of me, you people are going to have recognize that you just haven't made a case for what you're supporting."

You are paying the carbon tax today, you are cooperating. The case has been made and won, the election is over. You can keep fighting on alone to axe the tax if you want I guess.

"We will NOT be giving up energy any time soon if people of good will can't start to recognize reality for what it is."

I don't understand. We WILL be giving up energy. You don't believe in peak oil? Or you do believe in fusion?

Recognize reality for what it is? I am not much of a philosopher either ;-)

Sorry, I'm trying to follow, but again I am not a genius.

You haven't been paying attention

The refunds and the tax neutrality are the centrepoint of the con.

Campbell's a conman

And he's conned you!

I can't work with someone who can't figure out the basics and I'm tired of trying to lead you by the hand.

I know you 'mean' well - but that's no excuse for not facing the facts.

Lukey in the Sky with Diamonds

Quote:

"I'm a social liberal focused upon economic growth, employment, and prosperity."

Now that's funny stuff.

Rod Smelser

Ok Rod, how about this one, right from the horse's mouth:

http://www.davidsuzuki.org/WOL/News_Releases/web_of_life06150601.asp

Is June 2006 early enough for you to realize that Suzuki didn't just decide this year to derail the NDP for no reason? Or even just last year to push for Green Shift? That maybe this has been his position all along, he's been pushing it for years, and that he really was just reacting to the NDP and their late breaking "axe the tax" stunt? (sorry I can't find anything from the 80s, but I'll look harder if you can show me what the NDP was suggesting be done about climate change at the time)

PS political sociology is not on my resume.

Carbon Taxes

If Rod really is interested, the David Suzuki Foundation and David Suzuki have advocated for carbon taxes since the Foundation's beginnings. The earliest on-line report is from 1997 (http://www.davidsuzuki.org/files/Battle_full.pdf) - and there are a number of others from back then, some co-authored by now NDP strategist Gerry Scott. That's back when the NDP was in power.

G West

Just speak plainly then man, lay off the "Kantian philosophy" and the "Pavlovian cheques".

I've already said I don't think there should be any refunds. So there, we agree?

It's the tax breaks that get you? The tax shift?

The tax burden is being shifted from income to pollution, which hurts the little guy disproportionately. OK I can kind of see your point there. But I would guess the mining company puts out a bit more pollution than the miner does, so it's not totally off balance. And I know about how taxes on consumption as opposed to income hurt the little guy more than the rich guy. But I think it needs to be done anyway. Better now like this than the alternative future.

You support what, cap and trade? That's part way down the scale to the most ridiculous scam of them all, carbon offsets. We have to do something, and if in the absence of a carbon tax the NDP brought in a cap and trade system, I would congratulate them. But I would push for further action. If they suggested an industrial cap and trade system on top of the already existing carbon tax, I would say good go for it. But they didn't do either of those things. So here I am at the NDP clubhouse trying to figure out why.

"I'll keep on polluting, but I'll pay you $10,000 to plant some trees in your back yard, and call myself carbon neutral". ROFL :-(

Anyone out there who thinks carbon offsets are a brilliant idea raise your hand.

mikev

"but in the discussion in the comments, don't you think that now is the time to talk about what to do post defeat? What went wrong and what to try differently?"

It seems that on the NDP end that decision has been made.

What are the Greens going to do differently?

DSF Report in 1997

The study refered to by Ian Hannington contained this passage:

I believe Carole James made a similar statement during the recent BC election.

NDs support carbon tax!

This is great news for the party.

http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090611/bc_ndp_shadow_cabinet_090611/20090611/?hub=BritishColumbiaHome

The leadership is finally listening to someone other than anti-enviro dinosaurs.

Dinos, please take note: your ideas are dated.

sorry mike

I happen to be an environmentalist with a social agenda...I'm not prepared to succumb to Campbell's bribes. I don't think the arguments I've advanced, or the economic realities you've refused to confront can be swept aside.

I won't be joining you in any campaigns or crusades and I'll continue to oppose Campbell's pandering to his friends and facilitators.

I hope you and Suzuki will wake up from the delusionary state that Campbell cares for anything but power and himself.

But don't forget, when emissions are just as high next year and the roads are just as congested and nothing fundamental has changed - except that Campbell's friends in the mining and oil industries are still riding high that I told you so.

And I'm sorry principles don't seem to mean a thing to you.

You'll have lots of company though.

Dave Thompson

"This is great news for the party."

Is it? Its certainly great news for people that don't vote NDP but I'm not sure its great for the party. Before the NDP opposed the carbon tax they were mired well back of the Libs. I see no reason they won't return to that position. But I guess we'll see when the first post-election poll is done.

"The leadership is finally listening to someone other than anti-enviro dinosaurs. Dinos, please take note: your ideas are dated."

You're sounding a little triumphalist. The "dinos" as you call us gave the NDP one of their best showings. If there had been any kind of right-wing split as there was in 1972, 1991 and 1996 James would be premier right now.

But again, if you think the NDP will hold on to their current 42% while adopting Campbell's policies on the carbon tax and run-of-river in order to placate supporters of the Green party all I can say is I think you're dreaming if you don't think actual NDP voters will be upset. But we'll have to await the first poll.

You're a dino??

"The "dinos" as you call us..."

I didn't call you anything Frank.

Are you saying you're an anti-enviro?

acceptance of reality

The NDP do NOT say they support the Gas Tax, they said they will try to change it. Since Carole James realizes they lost the election, she is being a realist and will work to make life more bearable than the BC Liberals will make it. There is no flip-flop, just an acceptance of reality.
It seems most people were unaware of the NDP platform before the election, so they shouldn't be saying they are now flip-flopping now.

Are you in need of a brain transplant Luke?

The NDP can`t stop RUN of River,can they?

So why the fuck would would the NDP say Moratorium on ROR?

You heard from me first,you would of also heard me state that over the airways today on the cutting ledge with Palmer and Baldrey..
Gordon Campbell will kill his own carbon tax(or add so many more exemptions that it is sad)

ROR will be killed by Campbell,the reason,Campbell doesn`t have the guaranteed billions to pay them(Plutonic)....

So Campbell has two choices to make....

#1) Kill the carbon tax or chase industry away

#2)Put his own moratorium on ROR or completely bankrupt the province....

Campbell`s ROR plan(scheme)-Was in a diffrent world,money was flowing,coffers full,no end in sight of the good times....

Well,now what? Campbell`s ass is broke,not a pot to piss in,Harper`s deficit spending has dried up,Campbell doesn`t even have the money for any of his election promises(what else is new)

Campbell legacy in BC--Gordon Campbell took BC`s debt from 31 billion to 85 billion in 10 years,that is his legacy,...

California ain`t got money for expensive power,how much are they paying now?

Answere,half of what Campbell promised to pay Plutonic......

There are no more places to hide BC debt,the IOUs are showing up everywhere,Campbell will resign right after the Olympics and pass HIS LEGACY onto a sorry,out of ideas BC Liberal party........

P.S.--It is almost more pleasing to see Campbell implode and take his whole B team down with him,enjoy the show people!

Cheers

Frank

You sure are nicer to talk to than that G West troglodyte.

I hope the Greens can bring themselves into some kind of agreement with the NDP. Like the say Greens would forgo a candidate in maybe 5 swing ridings in order for the NDP to allow the Green leader to go uncontested in some possible riding, maybe sunshine coast or on the Island somewhere. Some kind of negotiation. I mean really, with no chance of any electoral reform anymore, who would this not make sense to?

Beyond something like that I hope the Greens don't do anything differently. Maybe organize with a little more technological savvy. Maybe getting the word out more that those who would would vote Green but vote NDP instead out of fear of the Liberals are really not helping anybody, and are twisting their democratic responsibility. But really, I like them the way they are.

PS axe the tax was retarded, but ride that run of river horse hard, it has actual legs. That's a scam that people can and will get mad about. (an NDP created scam? and there was an NDP convention motion in support of carbon taxes? at least I learned a thing or two out of all this!)

Peace people.

Dave Thompson

"The "dinos" as you call us..."

"I didn't call you anything Frank.

Are you saying you're an anti-enviro?"

Well, I wouldn't call myself that but I think wayfarer would.

I use the term enviro because I hate typing environmentalist all the time.

I also use the term to mean those who put environmental issues ahead of all else.

So in that sense I'm not an enviro because I put social justice first.

mikev

"You sure are nicer to talk to than that G West troglodyte."

Not true, I can be worse (by the way, where IS Wilf?). We take turns being the bad cop.

"Some kind of negotiation. I mean really, with no chance of any electoral reform anymore, who would this not make sense to?"

GWest was pushing this idea a very long time ago. A couple of years ago I think. I on the other hand was pushing STV. In the end there was no electoral reform, Campbell got a 3rd majority and the future looks very bleak.

By the way, if anyone wants to adopt a wonderful daughter who won't move away I think I'd be happy with a seaside property in Nova Scotia...

"Beyond something like that I hope the Greens don't do anything differently. But really, I like them the way they are."

They're getting 8% mike. 0 seats. After about 3 decades of contesting elections. They have to do something different.

"PS axe the tax was retarded"

No, it wasn't. Look at the polls before and after the NDP came out with it. And the election's popular vote.

"but ride that run of river horse hard, it has actual legs. That's a scam that people can and will get mad about."

Its a dead horse. Not enough people gave a rat's ass about rivers that don't flow by their subdivisions.

oh thanks mike

You're certainly going to get some friends that way.

Pardon me if I bow out here - I prefer to deal with adults.

People who engage their brain before slipping the clutch on their lips (or fingers in this case).

Enjoy your time as Campbell acolytes folks.

Wake me when September comes.

North of Hope

I hope you're right. I agree one shouldn't go by a single media report. I'm hoping for some clarification in the near future.

buccaneer bay

He is on his way to doing that anyway. BC has been fondly(?) called "California north". Now Gordo is proving it.