Now How Hypocritical is that?

Well its certainly not as hypocritical as the Liberals and especially the premier Campbell who gave himself the biggest raise of them. And whats Campbell got for the working stiff as James cry foul as workers forced to work and barely stay alive. Now who is the biggest Hypocrite of them all?

And This Spin Isn't Bill's

Its Can West's Spin on events as they work there digs on a continual basis about the NDP as it was the topic of the local news. The NDP are the opposition but if they oppose its negative and yet the NDP has no say. And maybe its the Liberals fault for giving them so many negative things to talk about. Oh and if Can west rides the Libs like they ride the NDP we might just have some democracy around here instead of the spinning tops that spin around an event with out ever getting down to reality of who is actually responsible for the condition of the province? And when talking about corruption which is evident the spin doctors talk like babies and say, "What about the deck Clark built" and where do you go with that? More spin until it leaves you sick inside.

Skywalker

I'm sorry you are so upset.

Are you still proud of your favourite party and the position it has taken to grab the cash so soon after being defeated?

realisticman

Why not? You are.

realisticman

Are you still proud of yourself?

Because telling the whole story doesn't ever seem to make much of an impression on your hypocrisy does it?

The NDP announced its intentions and followed them...the fact that people like you aren't prepared to acknowledge when you're wrong seems a far bigger problem to me than any embarrassment the NDP ought to have for doing what it said it would do.

Why don't we explore the hypocrisy of critics who are neither fair, equitable or accurate and who run and hide when they've been caught in a lie.

No wonder you like the CEO and his tactics.

Spinning 101

This entire thread is a charming textbook example of a political spin class.

I do hope other NDP supporters chime in with their essays on spinning the "I'll take the money now, thanks" game.

Has anyone yet said that they're going to take the money because there were deprived lots of money as children?

Talk about spin

How much did the Liberals donate to charity from their pay packets? Oh right, it was zero.

But by all means continue to attack the NDP for donating part of theirs.

What are you talking about R/man?

The NDP gave its raises to charity for two full years. Perhaps you give 29% of your annual stipend for a similar period to the charity of your choice.

If you don't, I'd say the hypocrite is the one criticizing that very small proportion of the political class in this country that does.

I certainly don't expect anything from the lying Liberals...but you, now that's another story.

Hey Realisticman

You were the one who called the NDP's actions hypocritical. That was a bit of the pot calling the kettle black and I suggested as much. If their actions are hypocritical what does that say about a bunch of self serving Campbell clones who had it in their power to refuse increases for everyone. Do you think the NDP would have supported increases if the Campbellites had not? Now who is spinning.

Are you so jaded in your opinions that you think all those NDP MLA's would work for less than their Liberal puppets forever. You are are hypocrite and your favorite game is spinning an issue. Well is doesn't work, we know your game. Now you too can donate your salary to charity because you are not accomplishing anything here.

I made the same as the old MLA rate

"And almost two years to the day when NDP leader Carole James raked B.C. Liberal MLAs over the coals in the Legislature for voting in an "obscene pay increase", she and her colleagues have reversed their position and will accept the salary increase from $76,100 to $98,000 and more."

Prior to a recent contract adjustment, my salary as an economist in the federal public service was $76,145, less than $50 different than an MLA's.

What do other posters make?

Perhap you all have noticed......

.....how R/Man doesn't address the questions and statements made to him in not only this but most other posts. Instead, he (like Campbell & Co.) chooses to answer a simple question, such as (for example) "What colour is the sky" with something like "It's just after 10:00"......

Carole has gotta go.

She ran a lousy campaign, one in five who voted in 2005 didn't think it was worth coming to the ballot box, and in spite of many Greens going over to the NDP, they lost. When you create what can only be described as a cult of personality, failure means that you step down as party leader.

$wine flue

$wine $swill and $swindlers...all of them.

RickW....now that you mention it.

Quote:

"Instead, he (like Campbell & Co.) chooses to answer a simple question, such as (for example) "What colour is the sky" with something like "It's just after 10:00"......"

...sounds just like Question Period at the legislature to me. ;-)

fripponfalls

Au contraire! The Libs ran a disingenuous campaign. The fact that 52% of voters thought some sports thing was more important just says a lot about the quality of the voter.

I don't disagree with much on these posts..

..except realisticman's right to pontificate on any matters of the conduct of the NDP given that he approves of everything done my the liberals even if it is exactly the same action. I may consider the raises obscene but obscene for all of them considering their rich housing allowances and unlimited expense claims.

During the campaign I was solicited for campaign contributions and I thought with the money they make they could finance their own campaigns after four years at the trough. Maybe a law that outlaws contributions from any other source might make them represent people not corporations. Do you think.

may as well just flip a coin as vote if these are the choices

Now I understand why James seemed quite happy to position herself for a seat as opposition. But, surely everyone realizes that NDP are just the flip side of the same worn out old coin here in BC. Perhaps that's why so many didn't vote?

Boy, I am really impressed they plan to donate their pay raise. We will all be so much better off with the private sector kicking in to high gear all over our province knowing the NDP donated their raise to the good caring souls serving it right at the soup kitchens.

Isn't that funny

To this point, I am the only poster willing to disclose their own salary.

Not really Rod

People use an alias for good reason...keeping things like one's earnings and one's name private on a board where others feel no compunction about being disrespectful and mean-spirited is pretty much a necessity for someone who is in, or has family members who are in the provincial civil service.

Let me give you an example.

I happen to know of a self-employed professional who had several ongoing and long-standing professional service contracts with a ministry of the current government. This individual also provided services to other private clients outside government and, in the course of rendering those services, came to write a professional opinion which happened, incidentally, to criticize certain government policies and actions.

Although this work was private and protected by privilege, the ministry involved - as soon as it became aware of the opinion(s) - cancelled the ongoing contracts out of spite (or anger).

Take your pick.

When you deal with rascals, it pays to watch your back. One's unwillingness to disclose personal information on a public board which is, without any doubt, being monitored by the PAB is just good sense.

I'm pleased that the same kind of care isn't yet necessary on behalf of federal civil servants....I hope that continues, but I doubt it will.

Rod

I won't tell you how much I make exactly, but let's just say if I was an MLA I'd be making a sight more than I am now.

Hypocrisy not!

This sense of right-wing indignation is distasteful and painfully familiar.

What's with this expectation that people espousing left-wing issues should make sacrifices and be paid less for the work they do?

I recall one obnoxious voice from the past crying foul upon learning that Greenpeace canvassers were getting paid for their work (and very little at that). What, like they don't eat or pay rent?

This mindset expects charity and aid workers to give away their time and skills for little or no remuneration and to do so uncomplainingly. Volunteers command even less respect and are quietly deemed to be fools and losers.

This is the mindset of the exploiting class. This is is Gordon Campbell's world.

Bulletin! VANOC is now recruiting vibrant young graduates to work for nothing as part of Mr. Campbell's Olympic Team.

"It will look great on your resume!"

Now there's a worthy cause. Good luck with the student debt.

The NDP are not being hypocritical here. (NicS has it right.) Those who voted for the Liberals voted for the pay raise and so, have no right to complain.

The real issue......

Perhaps if our social services and safety net were properly funded, or many service and help providers hadn't had their funds cut, charities wouldn't be so dependent upon handouts in the first place.

I still don't see any salary data

I have heard the pitch many times that so many posters are in such sensitive situations they just have to go by the name Eyeore57 or they'll get the sack.

If that's true, and if it's sensible for INet chat boards to allow people anonymity, why not the same for letters to the editor? In that forum, you must provide the publication with a real name, address and phone number.

And I still don't see any salary data, and I include Bill Tieleman in that.

Rod

I've never reached 50G and no holidays or pension.

I don't believe you because there's no reason why I should

"realistic"man
I've never reached 50G and no holidays or pension.

I don't believe you because there's no reason why I should

Rod

Send me an email:

garthwest@hotmail.com

What I'll share with someone I trust and what I'll post on a board like this are two different things.

GWest

I was responding to a request from Rod. Your comment was not sought. You have frequently made it quite clear that there are many things you don't or won't believe.

I wasn't responding to your comment either R/Man

Please look back up thread before engaging mouth and you'll understand exactly why Rod phrased his remark the way he did.

I could care less what you make, or lie about - it's not of my business.

I was simply telling Rod that if he still wanted the information he's interested in that I would be happy to communicate with him privately.

QED

G West

Please accept my apologies to you for my previous comment. I mistakenly attributed a comment from Rod Smelser to you.

Rod

Why did you ask and then say that you don't believe?

Did you expect people to forward tax papers?

I can assure you that I do not lie. Why would I?

North America versus Europe

In some Scandanavian countries, everyone's income and income taxes are in the public domain. There are no secrets.

"realistic"man would you be comfortable there?

A declaration that someone never made such and such without some further explanation is hard to accept. Maybe they retired thirty years ago. Maybe they're independently wealthy and never worked in the first place.

R/man

"I've never reached 50G and no holidays or pension."

Too funny. You can't even make a decent living and yet you lecture continually about how to run an economy.

Rod

I've had my own business for over twenty years. I am not retired and there never was any family money. None. I have never taken money from the state and I have never stolen from anyone. I have washed dishes and cleaned floors when I had to. Having one's own business is not the gigantic money pit that many people think it is, one has to work long hours.

As for the statement from Stump that I can't make a decent living; I say you are wrong. I live quite well. I don't buy new cars, I live within my means and I enjoy working, something that many people do not seem to.

Read "The Wealthy Barber". I am not a barber.

Back to work now.

realisticman

Accepted! Thank you.

Self employment

Properly managed and accounted for, a net income after interest, depreciation and tax from a small business of $50G per annum may well put you in a very desirable stratum.

I have had many clients, some of them running small food service operations for example, who carefully manage their affairs such that virtually all their household and food costs become legal and deductible expenses.

Don't feel too badly for realisticman Stump - I suspect he may even have found ways to legitimately charge things like international travel and frequent stays abroad to his 'business'. In fact, without a lot more information, the fact that one makes less than 50G per annum is pretty well meaningless unless the income comes from remunerated hourly or salaried employment.

Again, just another problem with a compromised and broken tax and corporate governance system in this country. And that's why those with the possibility of taking advantage of the 'system' are loathe to even consider changing it to make it fair and equitable.

absurd!

This is SO disappointing.
This month I will be selling books, some of my treasures to meet my rent, hydro and internet.
I have not insured my car for months. I take the bus, bike and hitch hike.
I am not on welfare, living off the last of my savings.

Roll Back Raise??

Did the NDP campaign on the fact they would roll back this 'obscene' raise?
Didn't think so. The electorate knows a ploy when they see one. They gave their raise to charity ...right? Do you suppose they claimed it as a charitable donation come tax time? Bet they did.

Rod

Even though Garth says that, "...those with the possibility of taking advantage of the 'system' are loathe to even consider changing it to make it fair and equitable...", fair and equitable are definitions that are difficult to agree on. Yes, there are opportunities for deductions but many of these are only percentage deductions and have to be carefully recorded and justified. I have yet to find how to include foreign travel as a business expense; perhaps I should hire Garth to help me.

Your $76,145 sounds like a decent salary. Particularly when I consider that if I become sick and don't work I don't get paid. I presume you are permitted some 'sick days'. I also don't have any paid vacations or paid time to learn, this has to be done at my expense and so this is done in the evenings and weekends, as is much bookkeeping.

After you have retired you will be receiving a pension which is paid by people like me who are still working and paying taxes. I will not be receiving any pension so I have to try and save enough to build an RSP fund to take care of me later.

You may have started in the civil service when you were in your 20's, which allows you to retire in your 50's and perhaps start a consultancy and continue to earn. I will not. The CPP will only provide me with a small fraction of my overhead costs and with the recent collapse of RSP-like savings worldwide people like me will have to continue working far longer than ever contemplated. The only reason I will stop working will probably be due to health.

I'm not complaining but to many business people the idea of a civil-service job with a regular income, paid sick-days, holidays and a pension sometimes seems like a dream.

Try calling yourself a travel agent or consultant

Start marketing your wares or services to clients in foreign countries...get into research.

It's not that difficult.

And no, I'm not looking for any more clients.

I know you're trying to adopt the image of being uncomplaining, but the 'appearance' of earning 'only 50G' a year is disingenuous for any businessman or woman.

As for having dreams, someone of your 'obvious' rhetorical skills should have no trouble finding gainful employment with the Campbell Clan in the PAB if you think lying for living is such an attractive option.

So, if you don't like it, give up all the deductions and get a job where some one else tells you what to do each day.

Not so much fun after all I think you'd find.

This is the kind of thing I expect

jimorsheryl
They gave their raise to charity ...right? Do you suppose they claimed it as a charitable donation come tax time? Bet they did.

Here it's being insinuated that it was a some kind of scam for NDP MLAs to claim their donations to charity on their taxes!

I saw the same totally insincere suggestion from one of the commercial mass media pundits a couple of years ago, and couldn't believe it. I wonder how many donations to charity that pundit ever made. My guess from the rest of what he offers up is that the United Way would be damn lucky to get a day's pay from him.

This is the kind of thing I expect, though, hypocritical demands that NDP leaders and MLAs meet all kinds of arbitrarily imposed restrictions, all basically setup in advance as damned if you do damned if you don't rackets.

I told you my salary. What's your's? Really.

realisticman
Your $76,145 sounds like a decent salary. ...

It's been raised to $79,000.

I'm not complaining but to many business people the idea of a civil-service job with a regular income, paid sick-days, holidays and a pension sometimes seems like a dream.

I told you my salary. What's your's? Really, what type of business are you in and what kind of net self-employment income do you declare for tax purposes? How much of your own household consumption are you able to include as business expenses?

I notice you didn't say whether or not you'd be comfortable with the Scandanavian policy of full income disclosure for everyone. Can I take it for granted that you would be completely and unalterably opposed to such a policy?

When I hear pundits criticizing the MLA salaries I am reminded of a situation in Ottawa about ten years ago, when PM Jean Chretien was being scrummed by some of the top TV journalists about a recent MP salary increase. He shot back that "you guys make a lot more than me!", and suddenly the scrum fell silent. Gee, I wonder why?

Interesting anecdote Rod

I've noticed that several charitable groups have given notice that they're fearful of the consequences to their budgets in the next fiscal year when NDP MLAs will not (necessarily) be making a donation of 29% of their income to charity...

Perhaps Campbell's colleagues will be taking up the slack for a couple of years, do you think?

I got a call at my office yesterday from a business group shilling for funds to provide nutritious food for poor BC children.

After a couple of questions I discovered that my interlocutor was:
a) a businessman volunteer,
b) who had proudly voted on May 12 for Campbell and his party, and who was
c) appalled at the fact that more than 20% of the children in this province live and have lived in poverty for the whole of Campbell's time in power - (he claimed he didn't 'know' these facts).

In any case, after I'd politely explained to him the anachronistic nature of such an appeal - coming from him - as it were, I advised him that I already gave a goodly portion of my time and treasure to the charities of my choice so I would NOT be sending him a cheque.

In fact, I suggested his call would much better have been directed to the Premier's Office - (or his penthouse home on West 12th Avenue in Vancouver) especially given the current government's policy on matters such as raising the minimum wage or establishing new higher payments for families on welfare and asked that he remove my number from his list.

I also suggested he might want to look a little more closely at who he would support in the next provincial election or get used to wearing an "I'm an ignorant hypocritical asshole" button on his lapel.

Maybe it’s only leftists who are expected to fight the realities of child poverty in this ‘The Best Place on Earth’™

Wow

Does anybody subscribe to "you get what you pay for"?

The best and the brightest don't clamour for political employment in BC. Rod's last entry hit on it, funny and true.
&
The fact that the NDP gave money to charity is great even if it was disingenuous and temporary. Who cares, money went to a good cause. That they accepted the wage isn't bad, it was obviously a ploy. Did anybody of any ilk believe that it would go on into perpetuity? It would be great to be in that position for even one year, good on them regardless the motivation.

The NDP and Liberals together created this mess. The NDPs incapability to manage, create or understand a healthy economy and their slavery to union capital and base support VS the Liberals capital from corporations and tendency to over-slice while selling off natural resources adds up to a seesaw dysfunction that results in a an abused environment, an unhealthy business environment, corporate control over way too much, a low functioning under-funded huge, slashed & unaccountable public sector and a disillusioned voter. Why not pay 250K for a politician? What would a business that represents billions of dollars do, pay for ninnies and numbskulls? We need great people in our public sector to get us past this mediocrity. What will attract them? Minimum wage?

Rod

Graphics. Salary is an unknown, earnings are based on sales and net income for tax purposes is arrived at by my accountant after eligible deductions are made for allowable expenses, sub-contractor costs and amortization of trade equipment. It varies and, as I said, it's never exceeded 50K. Home office expenses are also permitted based on whatever is the allowable percentage rate.

Incidentally, never have I said that MLAs are paid too much. I think that they should be paid more.

ninnies and numbskulls?

Like the challenged individuals in the world’s financial sector who created the balloon of pretend money? Like the idiot economists who should have learned something from the melt down of Long Term Capital Management in the late 1990s but instead kept up and compounded their stupidity for another ten years.

I think the suggestion that one gets what one pays for is complete and utter nonsense when it comes to salaries for MLAs, top OIC public servants and the idiots who apparently believed the BS about the unalloyed joys of financial leverage and globalization.

Furthermore, the suggestion that the NDP somehow didn't manage the economy better (and especially more equitably) than the current bunch is a bold faced lie.

Where have you been hiding DavidN?

'The Best and The Brightest' were the numbskulls who salted the earth with Bear Stearns and Co. Goldman Sachs and AIG - to name just a few - among others.

Notable among them a goodly number of the Best & Brightest in the gang which is bringing the Olympics to Canada for CEO Campbell.

You really need to pay closer attention.

At last count that gang of the best and brightest have succeeded in disappearing about $50 Trillion (US) of 'value' from the world economy...let's fire them all before they do us any more favours and hire Mohammed Unis to run the financial system for the ‘rest’ of us for a while.

Now there’s a man who understands value for money and who can show you positive and real change everywhere he’s been active

On the other hand, George Orwell would be right at home in British Columbia…
I think he’d get the corporate welfare message at a moment’s notice….

Rod

Not many takers, huh? Every year, Sweden publishes everyone's income tax returns. So do Finland and Norway. And nobody really cares. Here on The Tyee it's different.

Liars' Club

Sigh!

Lies, lies, tell me sweet little lies!

Guess what, no longer voting provincially or federally!

Now no one will say my vote was wasted!

Only municipal politicians may lie to me now!

Rod

I wonder if public disclosure in Scandinavia includes monies received from the state, such as benefits and unemployment funds.

By the way, as a self-employed I am not eligible for any government funds should I find myself unemployed, and, should I have a problem with a client on a project, I cannot file a 'grievance' without hiring a lawyer and bringing forward a civil court case.

Makes you $80 G's sound quite nice. I know someone who has worked for a private service company for over 20 years, has a university degree and has to pass various regular government safety and proficiency exams yet earns less than 50 grand.

Ah well...such is life...

But neither the public nor the government can, as a matter of course, scrutinize your deductions from gross income either realisticman. And you don't have a single thing deducted, whether you like it or not, from every paycheque either.

I'd very much like it to be as it is in Sweden, where all the info...names addresses and the like was published for everyone in the whole country - it would tend to make honest men and women of us all.

And those deductions at source, you also PAY nothing for UI, nothing for pension, nothing for tax - whatever you can convince Rev Canada you've gotten - by fair means or foul - is yours to keep.

Screw those net profit figures down a little more and you won't even have to make quarterly submissions..

Just like those who complain about the 'cost' of Indian Affairs, I invite all those who envy the Indians to join them....

G West

The governments can, of course, come to me at any time and require me, under penalty of reassessment and possible fines or even prison, to produce evidence and justify any claimed expenses. Including vehicle expenses which have to be supported by eligible and proven kilometer claims, etc., and I have to keep supporting records and receipts for many years in case an audit arises.

I also have to pay WorkSafe premiums for myself and any sub-contractors that may not have sufficient personal coverage; just in case. I also have to buy $2 million, minimum, liability and damage insurance and pay CPP premiums.

At least, if there is any profit left over, I can deduct all those accountant fees.

Hmmm!

Not very likely R/Man - as long as neocons like Harper and Campbell retain a strangle grip on the system with their partners in the press you and your ilk are the candy kids.

Lots of folks have to buy insurance. I think it is 'working' people to whom I owe my sympathy, support and solidarity...you and your business buddies are doing just fine...and, if it all goes pear shaped you know, you can use limited liability to walk away and start all over again...

Hmmm!

Not very likely R/Man - as long as neocons like Harper and Campbell retain a strangle grip on the system with their partners in the press you and your ilk are the candy kids.

Lots of folks have to buy insurance. I think it is 'working' people to whom I owe my sympathy, support and solidarity...you and your business buddies are doing just fine...and, if it all goes pear shaped you know, you can use limited liability to walk away and start all over again...

Moot

A definition please, "'working' people".

If it does go pear shaped I am not absolved if I am an unincorporated sole-proprietor.