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Don't Let Me Near the Kids
I refuse to tell students political fairy tales.
I'll just scare them.
Recently I was invited by other former MLAs to visit classrooms and explain to bright-eyed children the important role played by members of the British Columbia legislature.
Now it's not that I don't like kids. But I'm not eager to tell them certain fairy tales. So letting me near the idealistic youth of today is probably not a good idea, as I'll explain.
From December 1975 until February 1981 I was an MLA, and until a few weeks before I resigned as an MLA, I was in cabinet. I have very fond memories of my time in the cabinet and, without exception, of my colleagues -- even those with whom I, from time to time, profoundly disagreed.
That said, I have no nostalgia arising out being in the legislature because most of it was an utter waste of time.
I'm a member of the Ex-MLA's Association. I pay my dues but have little interest in it. I recently received, along with many other MLAs, a letter from Doug Symons, Doug having been an MLA during the '90s. I don't remember if he was in cabinet or not. If he wasn't, he's terminally naïve. If he was, he's serving up a huge plate of horse buns.
Here is his letter:
The Association of Former MLAs January, 2008 Dear Former MLA, At a recent meeting of the executive of The Association of Former MLAs of BC it was agreed to canvass the membership to see what support there might be for a "Former MLAs Speakers Bureau." The intent being to form a list of members who would be interested in going into schools (if invited) to speak to a class/classes of students about the workings of our provincial legislature. A little history on the layout of the legislative chamber, the passage of bills, what various MLAs do within the legislature and in their constituencies, as well as questions and answers from the students could be possible topics for a half to one hour presentation. [Emphasis mine] A few of us will be putting together a suggested presentation outline and possibly some visuals to aid those interested in participating . . . If you are interested there are a few other points worth noting: . . . I cannot emphasize too much the need to keep your remarks in the classroom non-partisan. By the time a comment goes home, embellished, and then to the school board some little comment can become a big issue. [emphasis mine] Finally, if you are interested in this enterprise, please let me know so that I may supply you with further materials and keep a register of those participating. Possibly at a later date, we can share experiences that may be beneficial to each other. Thank you, Doug Symons |
What I wrote back
My immediate answer was simply "not interested." I then wrote Mr. Symons as follows:
I think I should flesh out my refusal. Kids should learn that the legislature/House of Commons is theatre only and that to pretend that it serves any purpose except to shed figurative blood rather than blood on the street is fraudulent. Bills pass because governments (cabinet) want them passed. Committees meet if the government wants them to and then must deal with issues as they are instructed (exception being Public Accounts). Paid whips are farcical let alone paid deputy whips. Parliamentary secretaries are appointed so that idle hands don't do the devil's work. There is no such thing as debate in [our] legislature if by debate you mean trying to bring people to your point of view. In five years I didn't hear anything even remotely like a debate. I heard a lot of bullshit -- and contributed my share -- for the record or in hopes of promotion from the backbench. Kids should learn that 50 per cent + 1 in the legislature/Commons gives 100 per cent of the power and that with the exception of the power for a limited time to delay, opposition members can only hope to catch the ear of the media. Kids should know that 'responsible government' is bullshit and that instead of it being power up, it's power down. They should know that party leaders can bounce recalcitrant MLAs/MPs from caucus and prevent people properly nominated from running under the party banner. For the above and countless more reasons I have refused to help the Youth Parliament -- not because I don't want to help young people but because I don't want to lie to them. Rafe Mair |
Sorry kids, the facts
What I said in my letter is of course the truth. If members of the legislature, cabinet and backbenchers, opposition and government alike, pretend that I'm wrong, it's all make believe for the obvious reason that they don't want the public know the farce in which they play an integral role. If it were otherwise, a member voting against his party wouldn't be a big deal; whereas, in fact, unless it's a rare free vote, it's a very big deal indeed. And if it involves a money bill, the government MLA is shown the door.
But what about committees?
Apart from Public Accounts, they are chaired by a government member who, with his colleagues, perform under the party whip. Nothing of embarrassment to the government is put on the agenda and if, somehow, opposition members get too close to the bone, the chairman simply adjourns the committee sine die (with no date for re-convening).
To see what happens in real life take the Special Committee on Sustainable Aquaculture, which had an opposition chair and an opposition majority. They laboured mightily and tabled their report in the legislature. That report contained a finding that fish firms should go to closed containment. You would think this would force the government, if not to act, at least react.
But Louis XIV and his government have simply done nothing.
And nothing will be done to unsettle the fish farm companies, all of which have an abiding cozy relationship with the government.
A better message
The Association of Former MLAs of British Columbia should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves for wanting its members to present to students a version of provincial governance that bears no relationship to what really happens.
This same organization could perform a truly worthwhile exercise by informing the province's young people what really does happen.
They should urge those students, as they move along in life, to insist upon reforms so that MLAs do indeed have power to act independently in a legislature constituted for that purpose rather than perpetuate a parliament like that of Poland before the wall came down.
Related Tyee stories:
- Let's Teach Kids Philosophy
You really can't start too soon, I've found. - Nice: The Most Useless Word in Politics
Carole James doesn't understand the legislature's limited purpose. - A Chance to Cut MLA Pay in Half
They earn too much for a part-time gig.
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
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- Who Mowed Down the Premier?
- Canada's Economy, Deconstructed (by a 12 year-old)
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- The Ethics of Addiction Studies
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
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- Now Is the Time to Talk up Big Ideas
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- Alberta Fills Pipes with Corrosive Denial
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- What's Behind BC's Doors?
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- What's Behind BC's Doors?
- The Gem of Canadian Science that Harper Killed
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- Should You Run from that Medical Test?
- 'The Dictator'
- Death in Remand: Stacked Deck
- 'Moonrise Kingdom'
- From Financial Advisor to Occupier
- Seven Goals to Build the Conservative 'Dream'
47
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siamdave
4 years ago
me neither!
This is exactly what is talked about in the indoctrination chapters ( http://www.rudemacedon.ca/dlp/box/box04-indoc1.html ) of They're Building a Box - and You're In It - http://www.rudemacedon.ca/dlp/box/box-intro.html - how complete falsehoods about the way our society operates get spread through the population. Apparently the MLAs writing to Rafe are sincere enough - they actually believe that their government operates like it does in the civics books, and want to go and explain it to the kids, who will then believe it too. But it is all, as Rafe notes, a pack of falsehoods, and not the way things work at all. But most people will grow up believing this, and tell their kids the same things, and their kids, and on and on. And the box gets ever stronger as fewer and fewer people are left who understand what is happening.
Now if you want to really begin the education of some children, get this poster http://www.rudemacedon.ca/dlp/box/poster.pdf and spread it around a few school bulletin boards (it won't last long, of course, as the purpose of schools is to keep kids inside the box not teach them how to get out and thus to the school masters this poster would be like Satan visiting the Little Catholic Indoctrination Meetings or something - but any small hole in the walls is potentially a dambuster.)
ME2
4 years ago
But you sung a different tune then, Rafe
And if the elected backbencher feels redundant, what about we the electors whose wishes are ignored until election time rolls around, which prompts a new set of lying promises destined to again be immediately forgotten by those elected?
And that applies to the slippery bunch you were closeted with as well, Rafe.
KGR
4 years ago
While I agree that children
While I agree that children shouldn’t be presented with a sanitized version of how their government operates, I think Mr. Mair has allowed his cynicism towards government to cloud his judgment over what, in reality, is an honest and decent attempt to educate.
What Mr. Symons is proposing, as far as I can tell from his letter, is not to have ex-MLAs march into public schools and tell kids “fairy tales” about how wonderful and noble their elected officials are. Rather, he is simply seeking support in teaching the youth of today about the most basic structures of their provincial government, simple things like "the layout of the legislative chamber" and "what various MLAs do." Call him naïve, if you want, but I doubt Mr. Symons is unaware of the nastier sides of government to which Mr. Mair refers. He just recognizes that part can wait for a more advanced lesson in politics.
What Mr. Mair seems to be forgetting is that you have to understand government before you can become cynical about it. And, the sad truth is, the majority of school-aged children don’t know the first thing about how their government works. They couldn’t tell a committee chair from a caucus retreat. That’s a failing of our public schools’ curriculums, and that’s where the blame should be directed – not at ex-MLAs like Mr. Symons who are trying to pick up the slack.
To become properly critical and, if they wish, cynical about politics, today’s youth must first learn how it works. That’s a tall enough task on its own, as I’m sure any teacher who has tried to teach a civics class to a bunch of 14 year olds with short attention spans will tell you.
So I hope Mr. Mair, with his eloquent and infectious cynicism, does stay away from our young people. If we turn them off from politics now, they’ll never want to learn about it, and the widespread apathy that plagues our democratic system will only get worse.
slim
4 years ago
Too bad you won't go on the speaking circuit
Rafe,
You should have accepted the offer to go to schools and other places where young people hang out (like The Gap) and spread the holy Gospel According to Rafaël. The truth must be told.
Grumpy
4 years ago
The truth hurts
Tell the truth Rafe, tell the truth to students that we live in a benign oligarchic dictatorship, where the elites pretend that they govern BC. In reality we have 1 ruler or tzar, who's word is law. The tzar can sell province's assets at will, tax at will, do what ever he wants, with little or no fear of any scrutiny.
Then after 4 years, we have a soviet style 'showcase' election, where the process starts over again!
Democracy in BC? No bloody way!
Jeffrey J.
4 years ago
Right On Rafe
What a stunning breath of fresh air! Rafe, you rock. We live in such a cloak of hypocrisy and carefully managed messaging that I grinned from ear to ear reading this column. Long live the Tyee. Can you IMAGINE if this article were printed in the Sun? It would be revolutionary. Speaking out is the only possible way to dilute the concentration of propaganda. We must all do our share. Thanks again.
bc4me
4 years ago
KGR writes, "If we turn them
KGR writes, "If we turn them off from politics now, they’ll never want to learn about it, and the widespread apathy that plagues our democratic system will only get worse."
KGR, I hate to break the news to you, but young people (anyone under 35) are so mightily repelled by our current political system and its partisan system of tricks and knavery that it's difficult to attract anyone in this age group to to any event that features the p-word (politics that is) including assisting in campaigning.
Rafe is absolutely correct but I'd assert that this situation, this massive political turn-off, has reached critical proportions, and it will not be remedied until we adults (over 35) take responsibility for fixing it. Remedy #1 is 'truth-telling' and being candid about how our faux-democracy is farcical, crooked and exceptionally wasteful (of money and life-energy). Remedy # 2 will involve serious makeover, as in instituting a system of proportional representation at the least, to be packaged with some minimum accountability standards on how democracy is actually to be practised.
I wouldn't bother with even discussing politics with younger people until #2 is well under way. Then we can safely package up some scary fairy tales for camp-fire fodder: "And then at midnight the big bad party whip took out his Blackberry and text-messaged the complicit and docile media with a lie that was repeated throughout the land until everyone believed it."
Now I'm scaring myself. More's the pity that this conjecture is our sad, broken reality.
Van Isle
4 years ago
I've been saying this for
I've been saying this for years and have written my beliefs more than once in various comment sections in the Tyee. Democracy is a myth that is propagated by our politians and mass-media. If some people want to be a little more enlightened spend 2 hours and watch a movie called ZIETGEIST.
alive
4 years ago
wrong track again Rafe
What you accomplish Rafe is to make the public apathetic about politics and elections!
Certainly the government calls the tune, (providing they achieve a majority), but it is very important that people do vote simply to ensure that their choice of party gets represented fairly.
If more poor people would show up at the polling booths, our present dilemma would not be happening!
What you should write about is how the media make people regard elections as a popularity constest and vote for the candidate who manages to look and act more like a celebrity!
In fact we would be better served if personalities were not promoted but actual policies instead!
Skywalker
4 years ago
Not to fear, there is little demand for this.
I can just imagine the outrage from parents if a guest, former MLA or not was to do as alive suggests. Even if one were to do a very clinical discourse on the differences between parties you would get into serious heat from parents and consequently school administration.
There really won't be much demand for this kind of thing. If it is just on how the system works then teachers will elect to do that themselves to avoid the heat from parents. Most teachers are far too afraid to rock the boat professional by allowing a discussion of partisan politics regardless of how impartial the discussion is set up. Get a former Liberal into the classroom and every NDP parent with a child in the room will get annoyed. The reverse is also true.
So in a sense Rafe is right. If all he is suppose to do is talk about how wonderfully well the system works then it is a waste of his time and that of the kids.
woody
4 years ago
NO LAWS FOR OUTLAWS !!
Its pretty tough to rebut this story, unless of course you have your head up your arse, which, supporters of the BC Liberal party have. Rafe has stated not only his opinion, but additionally, with his years of cabinet experience of just how useless our system really is. Only a moron would argue contrary. Its bloody refreshing when people of influence are gutsy enough to state the truth. Thank You, Rafe. Like they say, many are called ,but few are chosen. This places you in the lots of guts club, along with , BC Mary, Robin Mathews, Bill Tieleman, Beers ,and few others. Now, if you would only write a column of how useless our Judicial system also is.
gglave
4 years ago
MLAs and MPs Navigate the Morass...
While I agree MLAs and MPs are useless in their respective legislatures, they are occasionally helpful when you need assistance navigating bureaucracy. For example, my MP's office recently helped track down an errant passport application.
G West
4 years ago
excellent point gglave
But have you run a cost/benefit analysis on that small but important service?
Gustav
4 years ago
Hallowed nonsense? Not so fast!
KGR is right to take Rafe to task for appearing to rubbish the utility of civic education, particularly for school-age children. I teach political science at the college level and, believe me, first-year students have a lot to learn about the basic principles of parliamentary government. I presume they either didn't learn it in school or else forgot it very quickly. If a class visit by a former MLA can spark some interest in the subject, I'm all in favour of it.
To reiterate KGR's point, one has to have a sound understanding of the history and basic structure of political institutions before one can critique them in an informed way. Unfortunately I find that many students who consider themselves to be well informed about politics are too quick to dismiss legislative assemblies as useless talking shops.
Such cynicism, while fashionable, overlooks the important work that legislatures do. It also forecloses serious consideration of what should and could be done to enhance the role of backbenchers and of parliamentary committees.
The first point can be easily illustrated. Last month, the Campbell Government was intent on imposing new terms of reference on the Electoral Boundaries Commission because it didn't like the recommendations the EBC had published in its Preliminary Report. But such a change in the Commission's mandate required legislation. The Government could have used its majority in the Assembly to have its way. But it was astute enough to recognize the political importance of securing the support of the Opposition New Democrats. In the debate on Second Reading of Bill 39, it soon became clear that such support would not be forthcoming. As a result, the Government abandoned the Bill and the Commission resumed its work under its original mandate.
Other examples can be cited, none of which requires one to buy in to fairy tales about the power of backbenchers. The Executive does indeed wield extensive powers, and yes, the epicentre of that power lies in the office of the Premier or the PM. But even the most powerful governments can't always act with impunity, especially not in a period of minority government.
So let's not, even inadvertently, foster the impression among youth that legislatures no longer serve any useful purpose. That would do a disservice to the students and, in the long run, undermine the cause of meaningful parliamentary reform--including electoral reform.
BC Mary
4 years ago
Pleased to be nominated
Gosh, Woody, I'm honoured to find myself listed in the Lots o'Guts Club along with Robin & Bill & Dave [blush] ... thanks a million.
And when you say Now, if you would only write a column of how useless our Judicial system also is ... lemme invite you over to The Legislature Raids for another excellent analysis of our useless judicial system by Robin Mathews.
And hey, did you read about today in Supreme Courtroom 54? Unbelievable. You couldn't invent such ineptitude and have it sounding realistic.
Skywalker
4 years ago
"legislatures no longer serve any useful purpose".
Anyone who thinks otherwise should tune in to watch the debates on TV. Better still spend a day watching them from the legislative gallery where you see it all. You would see very quickly that "People who like sausages or the law should never watch either being made." If Rafe agreed to participate in this superficial explanation of the legislative process, he would be restricted from saying what he truly believes by the same constraints that govern any teacher from having a real political debate in the classroom. All the information on structure and committees etc. can be better done by the teacher. Anything else depends on whether the teachers want to brave the risks.
You want students to learn about democracy. Then start a discussion about what is wrong with BC's. Assuming that it still is anything close to one. Nobody has the guts to bring that into a classroom.
G West
4 years ago
ANd here's the link, for anyone who doesn't have it bookmarked
http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/
frank2
4 years ago
What If we followed Rafe's idea
It's all very well to bemoan the ineffectiveness of MLAs.
Consider the results if we got rid of the legislature.
Everyone on this site, including Rafe, would come up with innumerable instances of legislative "productivity."
I agree, it's not enough, but much better than the alternative, which is only too common in this world
anarcho
4 years ago
It's all true!
Rafe is right on! What we have is an elected dictatorship, not a democracy. I don't feel, contrary to some other commentators, that telling the truth about this necessarily will lead to cynicism. NOT discussing it sure as heck does though. Critique comes first, then a search for alternatives.
anarcho
4 years ago
Some ideas...
Minimally, a proportional ballot or some other system which allows for every vote to count. Every issue of major importance to the province as a whole, or to a local area should be ratified by the people through a referendum, either general or local. To stop corporations from putting in millions into "their side" of a referendum, both sides of the question must have equal funding. All issues of development and the environment should be decided at the regional district or municipal level, subject only to minimum provincial standards. These issues should also be decided by the district through referenda. A healthy democracy at the lower level would also invigorate democracy at the higher level. We should, as they are doing in Venezuela, set up neighborhood committees – these could develop out of existing Community Associations - and they should be given the power to make changes in their areas.
greengreen
4 years ago
Frank Oberle, an MP for
Frank Oberle, an MP for Northern B.C, did some work in this area, attempting to explain the set-up and working of the national government. Good stuff.
The whole idea of government should receive much more attention in the provincial curriculum. Kids at the elementary level eat it up.
Rafe, I understand your cynicism, and agree that you should not be part of any such effort.
By not acquainting young people with the "ideal" how the hell can they judge what they see as being absolute crap? Without an idea of how things are supposed to work, they can hardly be expected to react when idiocy reins. (Isn't that kind of the state we are at?)
Des
4 years ago
legislatures
What is needed to improve the function of legislatures in general is just to move them closer to the people.
City and Municipal councils should be the first line of defence against super-governments, allowing local decisions to be made by local residents. At present, municipalities are creatures of Provincial governments, and have no powers to deal effectively with each other and with the Federal government.
Provincial governments would then be seen as superfluous entities and could be eliminated entirely. Wouldn't Provincial Parliament buildings make beautiful museums?
The Federal government would then be beholden to the wishes of the ordinary voters in their millions, unable to use provincial vanities to play off one part of the country against another.
Just think of the amount of money (read taxes) we could save.
Mr. Beer N. Hockey
4 years ago
Wisdom
Rafe is beginning to remind me more and more of my late grandmother. She was an early supporter of W.A.C. Bennett before decades of observation of the political scene edged her into the loving arms of the Parti Rhinoceros.
woody
4 years ago
BEER NUTS
Mr. Beer N. Hockey, Its quiet apparent by your comment to Rafe, that it would suggest that unfortunately, you didn't inherit 'any' of the quality genes that late grandmother possessed, but only retained the genes of your ancestors that were not yet walking erect.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
You can talk to my kids anytime, Rafe
As a matter of fact, I've already shown our kids articles you have written on more than one occasion. Though my wife and I decry as criminal the current politicians running the provincial and federal governments, we lead our children by example through protesting, contributing, volunteering, writing, and remaining hopeful that ordinary people can and do make a difference. Without trying to overburden them, we school them into understanding that they must work even harder than we have if they hope to save the planet from the destructive forces of fascism and objectivism (whether the particular party in power calls itself Liberal, Conservative, Socred, Republican, Democrat or Labour).
After all, if we don't show them how to think critically, they can look forward to being ignorant fools. My wife and I spend more time questioning our children how they arrived at their beliefs/thinking than telling them what we think. They read newspapers (editorials and all) and at their young ages, they wonder how people ever dreamed that the current politicians ever convinced people to vote for them. They know to research a topic before arriving at an answer.
If you want to visit the Interior, I can arrange for you to visit some high school socials classes. I know the local teachers in my community; they would be pleased to have you.
ChrisB
4 years ago
So What's the Answer?
Apparently we need a political party that would commit to fundamentally redefining our so-called representative democratic system, with one result being that government would have less power and face more accountability.
Then that party would need to win an election, and deliver on its promise.
So all we have to do is find the public-spirited persons needed to form and run such a party.
SharingIsGood
4 years ago
ChrisB
The Liberal government of BC in 2001 ran on the pledge of the most open and accountable government anywhere. To me, nothing could be further from the truth. They perform their actions behind closed doors; they reduced the length of question period in the Legislature; and their current practice is a cruel joke on people of BC in relation to past governments' practice of Freedom of Information. They are a law unto themselves, who rewrite laws to enslave future generations; TILMA is a prime example of this handiwork.
woody
4 years ago
Learn BC Politics and Law
Teach the young folks the B.C. Political system and Law? Go to this site.
http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/
zalm
4 years ago
Alive says it all...
... only it needs some adjustment. The picture's out of focus.
Your last line is the truth - the policies are the important part, and should be evaluated on behalf of every candidate impartially and independently by every voter.
It's your second line
that's the incorrect part.
It isn't the party that's important - that's part of the circus that democracy has become. The important thing is for men and women of principle (you listening, Rafe?) to stand up and speak for their principles, and vote them. Party politics is a corruption of the principle of representative democracy, and STV only perpetuates that tragic error. That's why it doesn't really appear to be a serious improvement, but only a different way of arriving in Hell, perhaps on a different day of the week.
Alive, your statement should read "It is very important that people vote simply to ensure that their choice of candidate representing their choice of principles gets represented fairly."
Chuck Cadman was our best example of true representative democracy in recent history - having polled his constituents on issues that he thought important, he represented them as best he was able. His constituents may not have been rocket scientists - in fact, based on Cadman's support for cockeyed Reform/Conservative/voodoo economics, I'd say they were butt-ignorant, mostly - but Cadman made sure their voices were heard.
Elsewhere on the pages of the Tyee, you can read the sorry legacy of party politics - Green fighting NDP, Olga Ilich flunking out of cabinet, Carole Taylor chased out, and "the Good Soldier Schwiek" - er...sorry, Ida Chong toeing the party line, never thinking an original thought.
It's party politics that's at fault here, and Rafe, I think, as a maverick you ought to go and tell the children about it. They can take your vote in caucus, they can tell people not to sit with you in restaurants, and they can shut you down in Question Period, but they can't take your brain, and if you can't use that plus the extra time to yourself to stir up some trouble, you've defeated yourself, not King Louis, and not Glennochio and not (insert name of current envirotoady here).
Go git 'em!
alive
4 years ago
"thinking" voters?
zalm:
Of course it would be great if party politics did not stiffle the individual, however the solution you propose would mean that the voters have to study (and trust) every candidate.
The point of having parties is that supposedly you can count on some uniformity between all the candidates in a party.
To some extent it works best if a voter can blindly vote for the party that has an agenda he agrees with.
If they all are mavericks we do indeed get say reform types who happen to have one good issue, and nothing else.
Your proposal is great assuming that all voters take the time to study each and every choice, but that is not how it works when the media daily blast them with slandered "news".
woody
4 years ago
Big news day for Happy
Enjoy, you won't stay Happy for long. Pretty ironic, no news gets mention regarding the Legislative raids, but at crack of dawn this morning the NO NEWS NETWORK announces, that a suit is pending between two firms and an individual. Sh!t, the commentator was so excited, I think he drooled on the desk. I fully expected to see a camera man and the mounties charging into Rafes house with a freshly signed search warrant, compliments of some Judge who functions mostly from the warm American states. Maybe their saving that part for the talking head, on tonights evening news.
woody
4 years ago
SharingIsGood
Nothing to do with this story. There is a retraction in the view archives. The wolfs are going for blood.
BC Mary
4 years ago
Democracy needs an independent free press.
Y'know, Rafe, it's not just the legislators who lack some vital element of integrity. They are kept honest and productive by an honourable press dedicated to serving the public interest.
This may be a very touchy subject today and I'm terribly sorry about that whole situation, too. It's symptomatic, really.
Our M.L.A.s may be elected (so to speak), but who chooses? who decides? who promotes? who covers for them? and who denounces? I think the corporate press does all that, often without the public realizing it.
The chosen candidates -- chosen long before the public hears the first election speech from them -- are photographed, lauded and promoted. "The other guys" are simply ignored. Facts about the chosen candidates are often tweaked or left out altogether, until one by one, we'd know with perfect certainty that each member of the chosen group: HE'S OUR MAN.
Corruption doesn't happen in isolation.
Corruption doesn't happen where a free press is shining a bright light onto government, on Opposition ... and on ALL shades of the political spectrum.
But today we saw, and were saddened, by what happens when one of us happens to displease the corporate media.
These are very weird, dangerous times. Good luck, Rafe. And David. And British Columbia.
DNA
4 years ago
How government really works
At the risk of appearing to be a Dr. Pangloss, I agree with most of Rafe's analysis, but I don't see why he's so upset about it. This is how politics works, in this best of all possible worlds.
We do government outselves by theatre, and the purpose, to shed figurative blood rather than blood on the streets, is a noble one. For goodness sake, there are enough countries in the world where blood is shed on the streets. If our parliamentary system did little more than that, it would be worthwhile.
But it does more. Debate in the Legislature may not bring people to your point of view. But if the debaters are making good points, if they strike a chord in Victoria and throughout the province, that debate has an effect. Maybe not today, but certainly tomorrow. The government will take note - since it does want to get re-elected - and consider its course. The strenuous efforts of the two valiant NDP MLAs in the previous legislature, Jenny and Joy, had an effect.
50 per cent +1 does determine who forms the government and governs, but the governing is a lot different when the vote is 75 to 2 than when it's 46 to 33. And it depends, again, on how effective the Opposition's argument is, and the response it's getting. The Liberals could have done whatever they wanted last fall in redistributing seats - they chose not to, they withdrew the bill.
Rafe wants a system, like the American, where legislators vote independently. That sounds great - it doesn't work. It doesn't work because you can't get cohesive policy out of a bunch of independent representatives. MLAs do influence legislation - in the party and in caucus.
Having no (or very little) party discipline is a recipe for paralysis. It bolsters the influence and power of lobbyists - who represent big interests. That's why the US (for instance) is the only industrialized country without universal health care. That's why they can't do anything about global warming. They can't get their act together. They have an outmoded Constitution (which they venerate) which essentially enshrines the status quo. It took judicial activism (e.g., the Warren Court in the 1950s) or civil unrest (the riots in the ghettos) to bring about the Civil Rights movement.
I'm surprised Rafe doesn't understand all this, having been in government.
And I don't see why one can't tell youth the truth - without the cynicism. We may not have the best conceivable system of government, but we have one that deal realistically with human nature as it really is.
RickW
4 years ago
Simple Solution to Apathy and Arrogance!
If 90% of the elegible voters don't turn out to vote, government and it's functions simply cease, the polls remain open until the 90% mark is reached, and in the meantime, no MLA or government functionaries get paid, no cheques get written, etc, etc.
Sorry to break the news to y'all -- but apathy is here and in full bloom, and arrogant political parties rely on this apathy to secure power by default.
G West
4 years ago
50% + 1
Don't think so. Better check those electoral numbers again. Our current governments take unto themselves - and their press secretaries - overweening power on a lot less than 50% + 1.
And that's the problem when the effort is meant to represent the majority...
G West
4 years ago
BTW Rafe, David
I would have thought that was obvious by this time.
I fully concur with BC Mary's thoughts on the other matter.
I trust this is more of a pissing match than anything since the requested apology has already been provided more than once.
woody
4 years ago
My hero BC Mary.
Litigation and suing this is the trend today the Americans perfected it. Brian has sued or threaten to sue I don't know how many people. Today I heard a Air Bus enquiry committee member say that lawyers are writing to inquiry witness's, cautioning them as to what they tell the committee. A blatant form of intimidation. In other words if you have the money or power you can tell Parliament where to stick the rules. Tonight on the CBC News world the topic was the pros and cons regarding to use of tasers by the cops. There is research regarding the safety of it on humans. To make a long story short, if the taser guys feel a threat in regards to the product, they put their lawyers on to the threat, they have a gaggle of lawyers, that's probably all they do , litigate, sue, threaten to sue. Its the game of the rich and the corrupt. The same as the BC legislation's trial, the stall, stall, stall till hopefully they die tactic. Throughout the thread different commenter's speak favorably about our law and political system, personally I sure as hell don't trust either. It will be our kids and grand kids who will really get the shaft.
mleyne
4 years ago
Surprised nobody pointed out...
... that the only substantive recommendation in Mr. Mair's piece, i.e., that MLAs be allowed to vote according to conscience rather than party lines, would turn Government St. into K Street.
It's fun to rant about our quasi-democracy, but abolishing the party whips would open the door to lobbyists.
At least MLAs are beholden to elected party members rather than corporations.
zalm
4 years ago
Hi alive
Your point being?
Sure it'll be a mess the first time or too, or few even. But as people become more involved, aware and interested, the media will lose the power to influence the vote by virtue of not being able to characterize individuals by random party positions, but will actually have to engage in serious analysis.
Some candidates taking populist positions will always be present, and will always secure some (many?) votes. But abolishing party politics will give everyone, including the media, a stake in outcome. Legislation may turn out to be more unanimous, and what side of the house one sits on may be determined more by friendship than by political leaning.
I see a lot of possibilities. Go ahead - show me the horrors....
zalm
4 years ago
Nice one, Rick W
I like it! No hospitals, schools, receive funding, no foresters get paid, so companies begin "high-grading" timber, no MoE inspectors go out, so chemical spills and waste dumps spring up everywhere....
....on second thought, maybe it isn't such a good idea....
Too bad. It had such promise. Seriously!
Tractorman
4 years ago
Rafe
I've always liked the way that Rafe can "stir the pot". Whether you agree with him or not, he can mix it up with the best of them.
to change topics slightly, I had a great deal more to say about the tar sands. However, I was taken away to fight the effects of our "global warming" [with a chill factor of -45F, obviously that is a sarcastic remark] a couple of days ago. When I got back, I find the subject closed. Can somebody explain to me why that is?
Thanks
G West
4 years ago
Nothing personal Tractorman
Stories close to comments after 5 days - same for everyone - same for all subjects.
You have to get your digs in early!
Stay warm.
RickW
4 years ago
zalm
We live in a society that has come to think that what we do(or don’t do) has no consequences. It was once said that the privilege of living in a democracy allows one to be and act stupidly. While the answer to this is “yes”, it was never meant that one was allowed to act stupidly forever, and without consequence. But we are really simple folk, and we work best when confronted by the “carrot and stick” approach to getting things done. Few of us care to act and react beyond the visceral – we seldom give much thought to events beyond that which we can see.
Therefore, I proposed that, unless the vast majority of the voting population turns out to vote (not, not in the manner of the Australian system where voting is mandatory), government simply ceases its functions, until such times as the people drag themselves to the voting booths. Politicians have come to depend on voter apathy to pursue personal agendas – they would quite happily be satisfied if only ONE person turned out to vote, while the rest of us who didn’t bother would never-the-less expect “business as usual”. Now why should we expect this if we can’t be bothered to show some interest in the electoral process? And why should our politicians expect they can govern in the face of apathy?
Yes, it would be a bummer if you didn't get your paycheque because your neighbour didn't bother voting. Call it tough love. And as Red Green was wont to say: "We're all in this together."
alive
4 years ago
ok zalm, I will spell it out
ok zalm, I will spell it out for you:
We live in a society where the average (potential) voter simply do not bother to think! period.
If we abandon party politics and run a batch individual candidates everywhere, the result is that it becomes too confusing for Mr. Average.
As I stated it means that the voters have to study (and trust) every candidate.
That is more involvement than is ever going to happen.
Yes I would love it if people would bother to study the agenda's of parties and individuals, but we see already that understanding each party's policies is more than most bother with.
In fact, I doubt that anyone would be able to understand and comprehend the intent of such a large number of individuals!
Also there is the problem if we can trust what an independant candidate announces is his goal if elected? there is no party line only whatever he may feel will get him elected.
Don't forget for many it will seem an easy career, a few years in office and you have it made!
I see scam-artist jumping on that bandwagon.
RickW
4 years ago
alive
A handy true-to-life example of this can be found in any municipal election. Candidates run as independents, and the average turnout of 20% reflects what you've stated. Here in Saanich Municipality, the mayor (a Liberal supporter) ran a block of candidates in the last election, and people jumped on that bandwagon, for no reason other than "it made life easier" on voting day.
ursus
4 years ago
The real government
The real government is behind the scenes pulling strings and writing the script that the rest of us live by and die by. Watched this movie monday night and I think it makes more sense then the b.s. the media and our phoney politicians are selling us.
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
I really like the part about the chip, the day after I watched it campbell is announcing the chip in our drivers license, an experimental program looking for 500 volunteers, then it will be mandatory? Probably.
Enjoy.