Canadian War Criminals?
Experts want top officials investigated.
Legal experts want O'Connor investigated
Editor's Note
[The issue of prisoner transfers in Afghanistan has gripped Ottawa all week. On Monday the Globe and Mail published a series of interviews with prisoners who had been captured by Canadians before being turned over to the Afghan authorities. The 30 prisoners told stories of savage beatings and gross mistreatment.
Yesterday, two international legal scholars, Prof. Michael Byers from the University of British Columbia and Prof. William A. Schabas from the Irish Centre for Human Rights, sent a letter to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court in The Hague. The letter, a copy of which is posted below, asks the Prosecutor to investigate whether Canada's two most senior military officials committed war crimes by allowing the transfers to take place and by not stopping them when credible reports of torture surfaced.
Prof. Byers spoke at a special Tyee forum on Canada and Afghanistan last night in Vancouver. For more information, click here.]
April 25, 2007
Mr. Luis Moreno-Ocampo
Prosecutor
International Criminal Court
Maanweg, 174
2516 AB, The Hague
The Netherlands
Dear Sir,
Re. War crimes and the transfer of detainees from Canadian custody in Afghanistan
We write to draw your attention to possible war crimes committed with respect to the transfer of detainees from Canadian custody in Afghanistan. In particular, we request that you open a preliminary examination under Article 15 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court to determine whether there are reasonable bases to investigate Mr. Gordon O'Connor, the Canadian Minister of National Defence, and General Rick Hillier, the Canadian Chief of the Defence Staff.
Specifically, we are concerned that Mr. O'Connor and General Hillier have:
Canada and Afghanistan: A Tyee Panel
Tyee regulars Michael Byers, Jared Ferrie and Terry Glavin, plus human rights expert Lauryn Oates debate and discuss Canada's role in fighting the Taliban and rebuilding Afghanistan.
When: Thursday, April 26th, 7:30 p.m.
Where: The Alibi Room, 157 Alexander Street at Main, Vancouver, B.C.
Free? Yes.
1. Chosen to allow detainees to be transferred to the custody of Afghan authorities despite an apparent risk of torture and other forms of abuse;
2. Chosen not to take reasonable and readily apparent steps to protect detainees against torture and other forms of abuse -- for instance, by seeking a renegotiation of the December 2005 Canada-Afghanistan Detainee Transfer Arrangement to bring it into line with pre-existing Denmark-Afghanistan, UK-Afghanistan and Netherlands-Afghanistan agreements, and now, following credible reports of the torture of transferred detainees, by ceasing any further transfers.
As a result, we are concerned that Mr. O'Connor and General Hillier might wilfully be placing detainees at well-documented risk of torture, cruel treatment and outrages upon personal dignity. If so, they would appear to be violating Articles 8 and 25 (and perhaps Article 7) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC).1
Any such violations would clearly fall within the jurisdiction of the ICC, since Canada has ratified the Rome Statute, Mr. O'Connor and General Hillier are Canadian citizens, and the possible offences in question were committed after the coming into force of the Statute (as well as Canada's ratification of it).
But first, we will summarize the circumstances giving rise to our concerns.
1. The factual circumstances
(a) Canada-Afghanistan detainee transfer arrangement
The Arrangement for the Transfer of Detainees between the Canadian Forces and the Ministry of Defence of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan ("Arrangement") was signed by General Hillier and the Afghan Defence Minister, Abdul Raheem Wardak, on December 18, 2005.2
The Arrangement "establishes procedures in the event of a transfer" of any detainee from Canadian to Afghan custody. It commits both countries to treat detainees "in accordance with the standards set out in the Third Geneva Convention" and stipulates that the International Committee of the Red Cross "will have a right to visit detainees at any time while they are in custody, whether held by the Canadian Forces or by Afghanistan." It does not provide the Canadian government with a right to visit and verify -- for itself -- the location, condition and status of any transferred detainee.
The Arrangement states that Canada and Afghanistan "will be responsible for maintaining accurate written records accounting for all detainees that have passed through their custody" and that "[c]opies of all records relating to the detainees will be transferred to any subsequent Accepting Power should the detainee be subsequently transferred."
Significantly, the latter sentence explicitly envisages that some detainees will be transferred onwards to the custody of third countries. Yet the Arrangement fails to guard against the possibility that Afghanistan might transfer a detainee onwards to the custody of a third country where he or she would be at risk of torture or other forms of abuse. This failure is all the more striking because Bill Graham, the Canadian defence minister at the time the Arrangement was negotiated and signed, has said that the Arrangement was established because of concerns that "it wouldn't be appropriate to hand them [the detainees] over to the Americans."3
Mr. Graham was rightly concerned about the legality of transferring detainees to U.S. custody, given credible reports of torture and other abuse at places such as Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay, and of internal U.S. government legal opinions seeking to justify torture.4 Some of the reports concerned mistreatment, torture and even murder at U.S. bases in Afghanistan;5 others indicated that at least some detainees captured by Western forces in Afghanistan were transferred from U.S. custody to Uzbekistan, which is notorious for particular severe forms of interrogation -- including boiling prisoners alive.6
In short, there is a reasonable basis to believe that torture, cruel treatment and outrages upon personal dignity have been (and are being) committed in countries to which detainees transferred from Canadian custody in Afghanistan might subsequently be transferred.
There is also substantial reason for concern with respect to the treatment of transferred detainees who remain within Afghan custody.
In March 2006, Louise Arbour, the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, reported on the activities of the Afghanistan National Security Directorate (NSD) in the following terms:
The NSD, responsible for both civil and military intelligence, operates in relative secrecy without adequate judicial oversight and there have been reports of prolonged detention without trial, extortion, torture, and systematic due process violations. Multiple security institutions managed by the NSD, the Ministry of the Interior and the Ministry of Defence, function in an uncoordinated manner, and lack central control. Complaints of serious human rights violations committed by representatives of these institutions, including arbitrary arrest, illegal detention and torture, are common. Thorough, transparent and public investigations are absent and trials regularly occur without adhering to the due process rights enshrined in the Constitution. Serious concerns remain over the capacity and commitment of these security institutions to comply with international standards.7
In June 2006, the Canadian Press reported that the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission office in Kandahar (where most of the Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan are based) had estimated that "about one in three prisoners handed over by Canadians are beaten or even tortured in local jails."8
In March 2007, the annual U.S. State Department Country Report on Human Rights Practice in Afghanistan reported that: "Complaints of serious human rights violations committed by representatives of national security institutions, including arbitrary arrest, unconfirmed reports of torture, and illegal detention were numerous."9
On April 23, 2007, the Globe and Mail reported on 30 face-to-face interviews with men recently captured by Canadian soldiers in Kandahar province and transferred to Afghan custody. According to the Globe and Mail , the interviews:
[U]ncovered a litany of gruesome stories and a clear pattern of abuse by the Afghan authorities who work closely with Canadian troops, despite Canada's assurances that the rights of detainees are protected.10
The abuse included "savage beatings, electrocution, whipping and extreme cold."11 Although Canadian soldiers were reported not to have engaged directly in the beatings, one of the detainees insisted that they would have heard his screams.12 As Mahmad Gul, 33, reportedly said: "The Canadians told me, 'Give them real information, or they will do more bad things to you.'"13
As the Globe and Mail concluded on its editorial page:
Canada is hardly in a position to claim it did not know what was going on. At best, it tried not to know; at worst, it knew and said nothing.14
In short, there is a reasonable basis to believe that detainees in Afghan custody have been subject to torture, cruel treatment and outrages upon personal dignity subsequent to being transferred by Canada, and subsequent to the conclusion of the Canada-Afghanistan Detainee Transfer Arrangement in December 2005.
(b) Wilfully ignoring best practice
When General Hillier signed the Canada-Afghanistan Detainee Transfer Arrangement, he had at least two (and probably three) models of best practice available to him -- in the form of detainee transfer agreements concluded with Afghanistan by close NATO allies of Canada.
On June 8, 2005, Denmark and Afghanistan finalized a "memorandum of understanding" concerning detainee transfers.15 The memorandum provides a right of full access to any transferred detainee, not just to the ICRC but also, crucially, to the Danish military. The Danish memorandum requires not only that the Afghan authorities maintain "accurate accountability" of any transferred detainees, but that they make the records available on request. It also requires that the Afghan authorities notify the Danish military prior to the initiation of legal proceedings, transfer to third parties or release of detainees, "or if other significant changes concerning such persons occur."
On September 30, 2005, the United Kingdom and Afghanistan finalized a "memorandum of understanding" concerning detainee transfers.16 Theother relevant changes occur.17 memorandum provides a right of full access to any transferred detainee, not just to the ICRC but also, crucially, to the British authorities. A similar right of access is provided to "relevant human rights institutions within the UN system" -- a category which would include the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture.
The UK-Afghanistan memorandum also requires, not only that the Afghan authorities keep accurate records concerning the location, condition and status of any transferred detainees, but that they make the records available on request. It requires that the Afghan authorities notify the British authorities of "any material change of circumstance regarding the detainee including any instance of alleged improper treatment." And, significantly, it provides the British authorities with a right of veto over any onward transfer of a detainee.
Sometime in late 2005, the Netherlands also finalized a "memorandum of understanding" with Afghanistan. Like the British memorandum, the Dutch memorandum ensures that its own authorities and "relevant human rights institutions within the UN system" have full access to any transferred detainees. Dutch authorities must also be notified before a detainee is transferred onwards to a third country, or before any other relevant changes occur.17
This best practice confirms that the Canada-Afghanistan detainee transfer arrangement is flawed in at least two respects:
(1) It fails to provide Canadian authorities with the right to visit and verify -- for themselves -- the location, condition and status of any transferred detainee.
(2) It fails to guard against the possibility that Afghanistan might transfer a detainee onwards to the custody of a third country where he or she would be at risk of torture, cruel treatment and outrages upon personal dignity.
Again, this best practice by close NATO allies would have been readily available to General Hillier during the negotiation and signature of the Canada-Afghanistan Detainee Transfer Arrangement. It is reasonable to believe, therefore, that the failure to follow this best practice was the result of a wilful decision at the highest level of command.
(c) Wilfully refusing to seek a renegotiated arrangement
General Hillier and Mr. O'Conner (since he became defence minister in February 2006) have chosen not to seek a renegotiation of the Canada-Afghanistan Detainee Transfer Arrangement to bring it into line with readily available best practice and the ongoing requirements of international humanitarian law, even after its flaws were clearly and publicly identified. Instead, it seems that they have been seeking to conceal and play down the Arrangement's shortcomings.
For example, the Arrangement relies primarily on the International Committee of the Red Cross to monitor the treatment of transferred detainees, with a subsidiary and unspecified role accorded to the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission. On repeated occasions, Mr. O'Connor told the Canadian House of Commons that the ICRC would inform the Canadian government if it had any concern about the other relevant changes occur.18 He maintained this position despite his officials having been told otherwise by the ICRC19 and non-governmental experts.20 It was only when the ICRC publicly contradicted him in February 2007 that Mr. O'Connor corrected this misrepresentation and apologized to his fellow Parliamentarians.
Also in February 2007, the Canadian government concluded an agreement with the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission to clarify and bolster its role in monitoring the condition of transferred detainees. The efficacy of this new mechanism was immediately questioned, because the Commission acknowledged lacking the staff to monitor all the transferred detainees, and because Canada had not provided any funding to the Commission since 2002.21
In any event, no attempt has been made to renegotiate the Canada-Afghanistan Arrangement itself to introduce rights of notification, visit and verification for Canadian authorities, or to secure a right of veto over onward transfers. And this despite repeated calls for a renegotiation from opposition Parliamentarians, non-governmental experts, and two of Canada's leading newspapers: the Globe and Mail and Toronto Star.22
One would think that Mr. O'Connor and General Hillier would have recognized, not just the need for an improved arrangement, but also the considerable likelihood that a renegotiation would succeed -- since the Afghan government had already accepted the terms of the Danish, British and Dutch memoranda. Instead, they have sought to defend the existing Arrangement. For example, General Hillier was quoted by the Toronto Star as saying that "It [Afghanistan] is their country, under their laws and their government. We hand the prisoners to them, the detainees to them. It's the right thing to do."23
The failure to renegotiate changes to the Arrangement has had real consequences for individual detainees. In February 2007, the Globe and Mail reported that when the Canadian government was asked to account for the location and condition of 40 detainees captured prior to April 2006 and several dozen taken since then, it refused "to say what has happened to them or even if it knows whether any have been tried, charged, or released, or how they are treated."24 In March 2007, Canadian military investigators admitted to the Globe and Mail that they were unable to find three men who Canadian troops had handed over to the Afghan National Police on April 8, 2006, and who it is now alleged -- on the basis of official military documents released under the Access to Information Act -- were physically abused before being transferred.25
In short, there is manifestly well-founded information concerning the inability of the Canadian government to account for the location, condition or status of individual detainees transferred to Afghan custody -- in circumstances where there are reasonable bases for believing that they might be subject to torture, cruel treatment and outrages upon personal dignity.
There is also manifestly well-founded information concerning the choice, by Mr. O'Connor and General Hillier, not to seek renegotiation of the detainee transfer arrangement to bring it into line with best practice and the requirements of international humanitarian law. In short, they have deliberately avoided taking reasonable and readily available measures to ensure that they are not facilitating clearly foreseeable torture, cruel treatment and outrages upon personal dignity.
(d) Wilfully refusing to cease the transfer of detainees
As explained above, on April 23, 2007, an extensive Globe and Mail report "uncovered a litany of gruesome stories and a clear pattern of abuse by the Afghan authorities who work closely with Canadian troops, despite Canada's assurances that the rights of detainees are protected."26 The abuse included "savage beatings, electrocution, whipping and extreme cold." The Globe and Mail concluded on its editorial page that "Canada is hardly in a position to claim it did not know what was going on. At best, it tried not to know; at worst, it knew and said nothing."27
Faced with these extremely serious allegations by a widely respected newspaper, Mr. O'Connor (and Prime Minister Stephen Harper) told the House of Commons that Canada would continue transferring detainees to the Afghan authorities.28 They repeatedly insisted that the February 2007 agreement with the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission was sufficient to protect the rights of transferred detainees.29 The next day, the Globe and Mail reported that Amir Mohammed Ansari, the chief investigator for the AIHRC in Kandahar, had "conceded in a recent interview that his staff are being prevented from visiting detainees in the National Directorate of Security's detention cells in Kandahar."30 The Globe and Mail quoted Mr. Ansari as saying: "We have an agreement with the Canadians, but we can't monitor these people."31
All three opposition parties (collectively representing the majority of Members of Parliament) called for the immediate cessation of detainee transfers -- a call that Mr. O'Connor (and Prime Minister Stephen Harper) refused to heed.32
In the circumstances, there are reasonable bases to believe that Mr. O'Connor (and General Hillier) is engaged in a policy of wilfully transferring detainees to a significant, known risk of torture.
2. Temporal and personal jurisdiction and the absence of immunity
(a) Temporal jurisdiction
As Article 11 of the Rome Statute indicates, the Court has jurisdiction over crimes committed after the entry into force of the Statute. Since the Statute entered into force on July 1, 2002, and our concerns arise out of activities occurring after that date, temporal jurisdiction exists in this instance.
(b) Personal jurisdiction
As Article 12(b) of the Rome Statute indicates, the Court has personal jurisdiction over the national of any State which has ratified the Statute. This jurisdiction exists regardless of the location of the alleged violation.
Canada ratified the Rome Statute on July 7, 2000. And the individuals who took the decisions at issue here are Canadian citizens. As a result, personal jurisdiction exists in this instance.
(c) The absence of immunity
As Article 27 of the Rome Statute indicates, elected representatives and government officials do not benefit from immunity from investigation and prosecution by the International Criminal Court -- regardless of any immunities or special procedural rules which might otherwise attach to their official capacity under national or international law.
3. Subject matter jurisdiction
(a) Torture, cruel treatment and outrages upon personal dignity in non-international armed conflicts
The situation in Afghanistan today is properly characterized as "an armed conflict not of an international character", since Canadian and other NATO forces are operating against non-state actors with the consent of a sovereign Afghan government. This characterization is accepted by the Canadian government.33
Article 8(2)(c) of the Rome Statute concerns war crimes committed in the context of "an armed conflict not of an international character." And it accords the status of "war crimes" to certain specified acts "committed against persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention or any other causes."
Detainees in Canadian custody constitute "persons taking no active part in hostilities" -- as the specific inclusion of the word "detention" confirms.
The acts constituting "war crimes" under Article 8(2)(c) include:
(i) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; (ii) Committing outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment.
Given the information summarized above, there are reasonable bases to believe that war crimes have been committed against detainees in Afghan custody as well as in the custody of third countries.
It is also possible that torture and other forms of abuse conducted by Afghanistan and third countries may be part of a widespread or systematic attack on a civilian population, in which case they would amount to crimes against humanity as well -- under Article 7 of the Rome Statute.
But it is the transfer of detainees from Canadian custody that concerns us here and, in particular, the choice not to seek to renegotiate the Canada-Afghanistan Detainee Transfer Arrangement to include reasonable and readily available measures that would help to prevent such crimes from occurring, and now, the choice -- in the face of serious and credible accusations of torture -- not to cease immediately the practice of transferring detainees.
(b) Aiding and abetting crimes committed by the officials of another country
Article 25(3) of the Rome Statute indicates that individual persons, including Canadian soldiers, could be criminally responsible if they transferred a detainee into a situation where they knew he or she would be at risk of torture, cruel treatment or outrages upon personal dignity, and such violence or outrages occurred. Article 25(3) reads:
3. In accordance with this Statute, a person shall be criminally responsible and liable for punishment for a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court if that person ...
(c) For the purposes of facilitating the commission of such a crime, aids, abets or otherwise assists in its commission or its attempted commission, including providing the means for its commission; (d) In any other way contributes to the commission or attempted commission of such a crime by a group of persons acting with a common purpose. Such contribution shall be intentional and shall either: (i) Be made with the aim of furthering the criminal activity or criminal purpose of the group, where such activity or purpose involves the commission or a crime within the jurisdiction of the Court; or (ii) Be made in the knowledge of the intention of the group to commit the crime.
Transferring a detainee contributes to -- indeed, it provides the means for -- the commission of torture, cruel treatment or outrages upon his or her personal dignity. And, in current circumstances, the intent to contribute to the crime could well be implied. There is a growing body of information concerning torture and other abuses in Afghan custody (including against detainees transferred by Canada), as well as in the custody of other countries to which detainees from Afghanistan are known to have been transferred. There is also a growing body of information concerning the shortcomings in the Canada Afghanistan Detainee Transfer Arrangement -- shortcomings that could have the consequence of rendering any detainee transfer a possible war crime (and perhaps a crime against humanity) if the detainee is subsequently abused.
However, more than the possible criminal responsibility of individual Canadian soldiers is at issue. Our principal concern arises with respect to the political and military decision-makers who have chosen not to cease the practice of transferring detainees, and who for more than a year refused to renegotiate the Canada Afghanistan Detainee Transfer Arrangement to secure rights of notification, visit and verification for Canadian authorities. In short, the policies decisions taken by Mr. O'Conner and General Hillier have caused detainees to be transferred into a situation of significant, known risk. It follows that, if and when any of the transferred detainees were in fact tortured or otherwise abused, Mr. O'Connor and General Hillier may have aided, abetted or otherwise assisted the commission of war crimes or crimes against humanity -- which, of course, are themselves war crimes or crimes against humanity. And if any detainees are transferred from now on, and then tortured, the possibility of the decision to transfer being a war crime will only be increased.
5. The absence of "complementarity"
Under Article 17 of the Rome Statute, a case that is "being investigated or prosecuted by a State which has jurisdiction over it" may be declared inadmissible "unless the State is unwilling or unable genuinely to carry out the investigation or prosecution." Assessing admissibility is of course relevant to the determination that you, as Prosecutor, need to make before seeking authorisation to initiate an investigation.
There is no evidence that Canadian officials are investigating their own Defence Minister and Chief of the Defence Staff -- especially when the decisions in question have received the support of the Canadian prime minister and his cabinet. Indeed, under the Canadian implementing legislation for the Rome Statute -- the War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity Act -- it is member of the federal cabinet, namely the Attorney General of Canada, who has the exclusive power to determine whether proceedings are initiated.
6. An investigation would serve the interests of justice
Article 8(2)(c) (and Article 7(1)(f) & (k)) of the Rome Statute concerns some of the most fundamental rules of international humanitarian law. In particular, the prohibition on torture (including complicity in torture) is widely regarded as having achieved the status of a peremptory, jus cogens rule.
Since September 11, 2001, there has been considerable concern about the practice of "extraordinary rendition" and other legally questionable transfers of detainees, and about dubious practices of interrogation and treatment -- including on the part of countries traditionally supportive of international human rights and international humanitarian law. Such practices appear to be widespread, potentially involving dozens of countries and thousands of detainees.
The covert nature of the crimes -- and especially the fact that many detainees remain in custody indefinitely or simply "disappear" -- often makes the determination of specific violations difficult. Yet such crimes could successfully be investigated by an institution, such as the International Criminal Court, having sufficient expertise, resources, objectivity and legitimacy. The fact that the International Criminal Court is uniquely positioned to get to the bottom of this difficult-to-investigate matter strengthens the argument in favour of conducting an investigation.
Additionally, thanks to the recent Globe and Mail reports, we are now able to identify specific individuals who have allegedly been tortured or otherwise abused. They include: Mohammed Ashraf, 37, who reportedly claims to have been "beaten for eights hours at a U.S. base", then "thrashed with bundles of electrical cables in NDS custody"34; Tila Mohammed, 18, who reportedly claims to have "suffered beatings and electrical shocks that were so painful that he blacked out for several hours"35; and Isa Mhammed, 32, who reportedly claims to have been "beaten with a length of black cable" and electrocuted "with a hand cranked generator" so that he "was flopping like a fish on dry earth."36
Moreover, intent -- at least in terms of wilful inaction or blindness -- might be relatively easy to establish in this instance. For it seems clear that the Canadian defence minister and the chief of the defence staff consciously chose not to take reasonable and readily apparent measures to prevent torture, cruel treatment and outrages upon personal dignity -- despite being fully aware of the risks of detainee abuse, the requirements of international law and the ready availability of a more legally consistent approach.
There is also the sensitive issue of avoiding the appearance of double standards. At the moment, the International Criminal Court is focused almost exclusively on situations in sub-Sahara Africa. Although the situations there are very deserving of attention, over the long term the legitimacy of the Court could suffer if it came to be seen as directed solely at crimes committed within one particular region of the world, or solely within or by developing countries. In its decision on issuance of an arrest warrant in the Lubanga case, Pre-Trial Chamber One focussed on the issue of "gravity" in determining admissibility. Responding to your request for a warrant in a case involving enlistment and conscription of child soldiers, the Pre-Trial Chamber said this was justified because of the "social alarm" surrounding the phenomenon of child soldiers. The issue of detainee transfers to jurisdictions where they are at apparent risk of torture and other forms of abuse would seem to meet this test. Indeed, "social alarm" about the practice of transfers to torture has been manifested, not just in Canada, but in international fora such as the institutions of the Council of Europe and the European Union, as well as in various components of global civil society. Finally, it bear repeating that the possible crimes at issue here extend well beyond individual acts of torture or abuse, to include policy decisions taken at the highest levels of military command and political responsibility. In such a situation, it is not the number of possible crimes that should matter, but rather that an entire military and political apparatus has been put in the service of possible war crimes and crimes against humanity. For this reason, above all, the opening of a preliminary examination under Article 15 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court would seem to be called for.
7. Conclusions
This letter is intended to draw your attention to possible war crimes and crimes against humanity committed with respect to the transfer of detainees from Canadian custody in Afghanistan. In particular, we request that you open a preliminary examination under Article 15 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court to determine whether there are reasonable bases to investigate Mr. Gordon O'Connor, the Canadian Minister of National Defence, and General Rick Hillier, the Canadian Chief of the Defence Staff.
We are concerned that Mr. O'Connor and General Hillier have refused to cease immediately the practice of transferring detainees -- in the face of serious and credible accusations of torture -- and, before that, refused to seek to renegotiate the December 2005 Canada-Afghanistan Detainee Transfer Arrangement in order to bring it into line with pre-existing Denmark-Afghanistan, UK-Afghanistan and Netherlands-Afghanistan agreements. As a result, they would seem wilfully to be placing detainees at well-documented risk of torture, cruel treatment and outrages upon personal dignity. If so, they would appear to be committing war crimes in violation of Articles 8 and 25 (and perhaps crimes against humanity in violation of Articles 7 and 25) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court -- in circumstances that clearly fall within the Court's jurisdiction.
With thanks for your attention to this matter, we are,
Yours respectfully,
|
Prof. Michael Byers Canada Research Chair in Global Politics & International Law University of British Columbia Vancouver, Canada Tel: +1 (604) 822-3049 michael.byers@ubc.ca |
Prof. William A. Schabas OC Director, Irish Centre for Human Rights National University of Ireland, Galway Galway, Ireland Tel: +353.91.493726 william.schabas@nuigalway.ie |
Footnotes:
1 For the Rome Statute, see: < http://www.un.org/law/icc/statute/romefra.htm >.
2 See Annex 1 below, or < http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/operations/archer/agreement_e.asp >.
3 Paul Koring, "Handover deal lacks key detainee protections," Globe and Mail, March 30, 2006, A1.
4 See, e.g.: Dana Priest & R. Jeffrey Smith, "Memo Offered Justification for Use of Torture; Justice Dept. Gave Advice in 2002," Washington Post, June 8, 2004, A1; Neil A. Lewis & Eric Schmitt, "Lawyers Decided Bans on Torture Didn't Bind Bush," New York Times, June 8, 2004, A1; Karen J. Greenberg & Joshua L. Dratel, The Torture Papers: The Road to Abu Ghraib (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2005).
5 Dana Priest & Barton Gellman, "U.S. Decries Abuse but Defends Interrogations; 'Stress and Duress' Tactics Used on Terrorism Suspects Held in Secret Overseas Facilities," Washington Post, December 26, 2002, A1; Don Van Natta Jr., "Questioning Terror Suspects In a Dark and Surreal World," New York Times, March 9, 2003, p. 1; Carlotta Gall, "U.S. Military Investigating Death of Afghan in Custody," New York Times, March 4, 2003, A14.
6 Stephen Grey, Ghost Plane: The True Story of the CIA Torture Program (St. Martin's Press: New York, 2006) 181-2 & 187.
7 "Report of the High Commissioner for Human Rights on the situation of human rights in Afghanistan and on the achievements of technical assistance in the field of human rights, Advanced edited version," , UN doc. E/CN.4/2006/108, para. 68, available at: < http://www.ohchr.org/english/bodies/chr/docs/62chr/ecn4-2006-108.doc > .
8 Sue Bailey and Bob Weber, "Canada's top general defends handling of Afghan prisoners as torture reported," Canadian Press, June 4, 2006.
9 See: < http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2006/78868.htm >.
10 Graham Smith, "From Canadian custody into cruel hands," Globe and Mail, April 23, 2007, A1.
11 Ibid.
12 Ibid.
13 Ibid.
14 "The truth Canada did not wish to see," Globe and Mail, April 23, 2007, A18.
15 See Annex 2 below.
16 See Annex 3 below.
17 See Annex 4 below.
18Paul Koring, "Red Cross contradicts Ottawa on detainees; Aid agency confirms it does not monitor Canada-Afghan deal on prisoner treatment," Globe and Mail, March 8, 2007, A1.
19 Bruce Campion-Smith, "Defence minister facing a new battle," Toronto Star, March 17, 2007, F04.
20 See, e.g.: Standing Committee on National Defence, No. 28, 1st Session, 39th Parliament, Evidence, Monday, December 11, 2006, pp. 11 & 13, available at: < http://cmte.parl.gc.ca/Content/HOC/Committee/391/NDDN/Evidence/EV2598745/NDDNEV28-E.PDF >.
21 Paul Koring, "CIDA contradicts Ottawa on funding Afghan monitor," Globe and Mail, March 23, 2007, A1.
22 Editorial, "O'Connor's untruth on the Afghan pact," Globe and Mail, March 9, 2007, A16; Editorial, "Ottawa's Afghan Duty," Toronto Star, March 13, 2007, A16.
23 Tonda MacCharles, "Prisoner hand-off policy in Afghanistan defended," Toronto Star, June 9, 2006, A19.
24 Paul Koring, "Ottawa silent on fate of captured terror suspects; No accounting for scores of detainees that have been handed to Americans, Afghans," Globe and Mail, February 6, 2007, A15.
25 Paul Koring, "Canada loses track of Afghan detainees; Military investigators unable to locate three men allegedly abused by troops," Globe and Mail, March 2, 2007, A1.
26 Graham Smith, "From Canadian custody into cruel hands," Globe and Mail, April 23, 2007, A1.
27 "The truth Canada did not wish to see," Globe and Mail, April 23, 2007, A18.
28 Daniel Leblanc, "PM defends policy on detainees," Globe and Mail, April 24, 2007, A16.
29 Ibid.
30 Graeme Smith, "Watchdog: 'We can't monitor these people'," Globe and Mail, April 24, 2007, A1.
31 Ibid.
32 Daniel Leblanc, "PM defends policy on detainees," Globe and Mail, April 24, 2007, A16.
33 See: Paul Koring, "Troops told Geneva rules don't apply to Taliban," Globe and Mail, May 31, 2006, A1.
34 Graeme Smith, "Don't bleed on the carpet," Globe and Mail, April 24, 2007, A17.
35 Ibid.
36 Ibid.
![]()



64
Login or register to post comments
murdock
4 years ago
keep the pressure on
Good to see that the relevant issues are being addressed, perhaps those 'in power' regarding these issues will take more heed of thier responsibilites?
no.
"Business as ususal" will be the order of the day, until someone is really taken to task by the ICC.
demotto
4 years ago
We don`t need
theICC we only need the top cop to start taking the position seriously and prosecute these politicians and military leaders under our Crimes Against Humanity Act. Never happen as they are the elites and the law only applies to the poor and working class of this country. Oh and especially Grandmothers and the ill.
Truman Green
4 years ago
Don't quite understand why Terry Glavin
would be invited to such a discussion. He's the guy who said in the Straight something like: "This is a war, eh. These guys (activists) are not on our side."
Meaning the right side or the side of freedom and democracy, or good Samaritanism, I guess.
I debated some engineering students with Glavin's attitude in l964 in front of the Main Library at UBC. They thought our war protest was a joke and wanted to throw us into the pool. It was about Vietnam.
The engineering students thought we were bad Canadians, too.
Truman Green
4 years ago
I forgot to mention...
The Vietnam War slaughtered 58,000 American soldiers, 3 million Vietnamese soldiers and civilians and Nixon's secret bombing of Cambodia gave Pol Pot the excuse to empty the cities and begin his genocide of approx. one quarter of the Cambodian population. (2-3 million people, depending upon who's counting)
All to accomplish exactly NOTHING.
The peace activists, like Glavin's agitators, of course, were on the wrong side; They didn't approve.
G West
4 years ago
Truman
Didn't the same thing happen a year or two later with another student?
Except that in that case the Engineers did throw him in the pond and the activist, a guy called Gabor Mate, defended himself and cut a couple of the engineers with a pen knife.
He went on to become a well-know physician and journalist.
They'd grabbed him from a rally somewhere else on campus and dragged him in one of their stupid chariot things with a cage mounted on it to the pool in front of the library.
Remember?
Debating engineers wasn't much use then - probably not now either.
Jeff74
4 years ago
Turning over criminals to Afghan authorities
Is the lawful thing to do. We are guests in their country, and what we have here is allegations written in the permissive sense, not the imperative. More is coming out on this everday, surprising who will be wearing egg on this one, and to be blunt, it is the current government and leadership that is trying to clean it up.
http://davidakin.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2007/4/28/2910789.html
The detainees we hand over are criminals. Nothing more. More often then not the same criminals who cut the heads off of locals because someone doesn't like their neighbor, so they must be a spy for the Americans.
Oh, and I can't wait to read on more of the source of the allegations. Should prove comical.
G West
4 years ago
Is the lawful thing to do - says Jeff74
Is the lawful thing to do.
You must be joking. That argument could have been written by Alberto Gonzales or John Yoo for the Bush White House.
Perhaps you'd like to read a little more about his ideas:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/31/books/31kaku.html?ex=1177905600&en=cf4581976c90f6f1&ei=5070
Jeff74
4 years ago
The NYTimes?
You have got to be kidding. That left wing rag?
dr evil
4 years ago
GWest
Looks like you`ve got a live one...a real winner.
Sounds like a very good boy though.
Truman Green
4 years ago
Glavin's right about one thing...
These middle east societies are extremely brutal and their pretense at sharing a sense of religiosity does nothing to diminish it. One of the warlords, who is now apparently politically rehabilitated, is known to have disciplined his troops by tying a detainee to the tracks on a tank and grinding him to hamburger.
I have a friend from Afghanistan who just last week told me a story about her village. Women who are sexually assaulted are considered to be responsible for the crime against them. My friend says she knows of several cases of women who were abused and have drowned themselves in wells rather than face family members.
The police do not represent the people, but rather the warlords or government in power, and jails and prisons are usually merely excuses for jailers and police to practise their psychopathic propensities.
Torture is common in all middle east societies, regardless of the reliability of the latest reports that find that Canadian forces have turned over detainees to torturers. Of course they have. Police in the middle east routinely torture their captives.
If you get picked up by the police in any of these societies--Egypt, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq etc--for any reason-- there's a good chance that you're (at minimum) going to be punched and kicked around--or much worse.
This is what they do.
And of course if you're subject to 'extraordinary rendition' than you'll likely be given the Arar treatment.
G West
4 years ago
You have got to be kidding: Jeff74
The link was to a book review of John Yoo's justification for torture as a way to fight the way on terror.
It seems to me that if one wishes to be taken as a serious commentator it is contingent upon said individual to actually "read" the material in question prior to categorizing its source or value.
You might also wish to check the Charter and some of the applicable jurisprudence with respect to the obligations Canadians have when treating foreign nationals before you decide what's lawful or not for Canada and its representatives - military or elected - to do.
I think we may very well be in violation of the Geneva conventions right now.
BC Mary
4 years ago
33 years old and still unwittingly stupid??
It seems to be taking longer for people to grow up these days.
If Jeff74 is telling us that he's the 1974 model, he has a very long way to go before graduating as a thoughtful human being.
A detainee is a criminal, eh. Looks as if anyone reading a "left wing rag" might win Jeff's nomination for rendition, too.
murdock
4 years ago
...and the Canadians are the 'police'?
A significant part of the Kandehar mandate is the restoration of 'law and order'.
Given that the methods Truman Green has put forward, this makes the Canadian military nothing more than another group of hired thugs (ok the best armed ones around maybe) doing the dirty work of the Karzei Government.
For no other reason than this we should stop the transfer of detainees immediately.
Deal with them ourselves, we have the capacity, just not the political or financial will.
G West
4 years ago
Until a few weeks ago
We even had a plan to set up a detention facility and staff it in very short order.
The material has now been excised from the DND website.
Ref: Avi Lewis interview on CBC radio last week.
Very bad performance by the government on THE HOUSE on CBC Radio this morning.
BC Dude
4 years ago
Harperco along with his
Harperco along with his buddy bushco are going down in history as war criminals against humanity and anybody assocciated with them like the crooked libs!
The only party left with any gnads is the NDP for speaking against this dispicable war/occupation started by Cheney/bush right from the start!
There isn't one politician who can answer truthfully why we went to Afghanistan and don't use 9/11 dick Cheney BS!
I believe P Martin took us into war to take the pressure of the Sponsorship Scandal.
"GO CANUCKS GO"
Jeff74
4 years ago
You guys make me laugh
Ignorance is bliss apparently. Keep on trucking... Though, kind of hard to do with head in sand, and being too busy putting words in one's mouth.
flattax
4 years ago
The only war crime is not to win
We don't want these hard core scumbag taliban here. We have enough islamists in this country.
Once they are on Canadian soil they will be benefiting from the charter of rights and freedoms. Next thing you know they will be on welfare and sponsoring their entire family members to come over.
Let them languish and be tortured in a Afgani prison. To each their own.
What a joke ths country is. we are weak. The west is weak and soft. we should not even be discussing bringing them over here, we should have done to them what they would have done to us if they had captured us...AND I LEAVE THAT TO YOUR IMAGINATION.
murdock
4 years ago
do unto others ...
writes flattax
gee what a wonderful world you must live in
I suspect that were a foreign power to drop from the sky tomorrow into Vancouver, and kill your friends you would blame your friends for 'not being nice' to the invaders?
Yes we are, for not being able to stand up to the bullies that are posturing as our 'leaders'!
G West
4 years ago
Who suggested bringing them here flattax
The detention facility plans and orders for DND were meant for in-country detention.
You're thinking the Taliban are great swimmers?
Why don't you take a few minutes, read this material, and think for a while:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070421.wafghan21/BNStory/Afghanistan
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070423.wdetainee23/BNStory/Afghanistan/home/?pageRequested=all
G West
4 years ago
And, a little more on the mess we've created
THis from a US source:
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/17145574.htm
Great record of "success" in the 'war' on terrorism, eh?
dr evil
4 years ago
flattax
you sound like a very frightened man flattax..you must check `neath the bed each night for these lurking "Islamists".
If I were you flattax I`d get out while the gettin`s good..they`ll soon be here..
in their turbans..ogling all your....stuff
You must be quaking in your shiny little shoes.
DPL
4 years ago
I recall seeing Canadian
I recall seeing Canadian special Force guys hustling somebody off the back end of a helicopter, or maybe it was a Herc. Back when Martin was PM. It was supposed to stop until Canada had assurances of proper treatment of detainees. I guess it didn't stop. and body detained is supposed to become a prisioer and under the geneva Convention, not handed to a bunch of warlords who happen to be in the so called government of the country. should a Canadian army person get captued, well the right wingers would be going supersonic about those savages mistreating our folks. Can't have it both ways folks. What the hell are we doing there anyway?
flattax
4 years ago
G West and DPL
You have not been reading the news lately??
The liberals and NDP suggested bringing the Taliban to Canada!!! They are very irrational, Seline Dion is such a joke! Here is a link about the response:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=66d8794a-7ece-4bcc-ae1f-d40099b247c6&k=20125
Rule number one in the Taliban guide: If you are captured, claim you are tortured...Let's all fall for it!
The war against islamists is not about right or wrong. It is about winning or loosing the Western Way of life and entering the dark ages of Muslim civilization. The war between islam and the west is a war that has gone on since the beginning of Islam. We were just busy fighting WW I and II and then the Cold War to notice it. So we did not grow up with it, but it is there nonetheless. You can deny it, but the islamists will never deny it.
Why are we there? So we don't have to fight it in the West. As Winston Churchill said: It is better to fight a war in your neighbour's garden than at you doorstep.
flattax
4 years ago
The dark ages the islamists would bring to us
Many people put it in a more politically correct writing style than I do. I am not a writer, but a person who sees throught the BS of political correctness and self loathing that handicaps the west in its struggle against radical islam.
Even a left winger would agree with this article:
The New Dark Ages are already with us. For hundreds of millions of people in parts of the Middle-East, Africa and South-East Asia, the ascendancy of Islamic fundamentalism has ushered in an era of religious obscurantism and intolerance. The liberal, compassionate wing of Islam - although it still has large numbers of adherents - is being forced onto the defensive and increasingly eclipsed.
The fervour of this modern Muslim extremism echoes the zealotry of the original Dark Ages in mediæval Europe, when Christian fundamentalists excommunicated philosophers and scientists as heretics, tortured non-believers, drowned women as witches, and burned sodomites at the stake.
Several hundred years after the breakdown of theocracy and the beginning of the Enlightenment, few people would have thought it possible for clerical fascism to make a major comeback. But it has, and it's spreading – with alarming consequences for human rights.
Read the rest here:
http://www.petertatchell.net/religion/dark%20ages.htm
G West
4 years ago
flattax
You might want to check the attitudes and beliefs of Christianists my friend.
Did you read the G&M stories?
ov
4 years ago
Where's the editors
If I replaced every occurrence of the the word islamists with the word jewin flattax's screed I'd have been kicked off the site by now. So let's get rid of this double standard okay?
flattax
4 years ago
No double standard here
OV
I believe the word you are looking for here is zionist. There is no double standard here...neither the terms zionist or islamist are racist. One is free to use either in our free western society without fear of being beheaded.
G West
Don't try to draw a moral equivalency where there is none.
Christians are not strapping bombs to their back. Christians did not fly planes into the WTC. Christians did not set off bombs in Bali. Christians did not bomb the london underground. Christians did not bomb Spanish Trains. Christians did not stab Theo Van Gogh to death. Christians did not cut off Daniel Pearls head.
If I am being a little pedantic here, it is because many of you are thick and seem to be trapped in some kind of multicultural time vortex. So very 80's.
Wake up.
G West
4 years ago
The word I used was Christianist
Look it up. See what such people believe and teach.
Educate yourself a little.
Then we'll talk. Until then, you're wasting my time.
flattax
4 years ago
ergo
Quote: "See what such people believe and teach."
There is a difference between believing, teaching and blowing up people up. Like I said, some people here a little thick.
Educate youself to the Islamist threat:
Christians are not strapping bombs to their back. Christians did not fly planes into the WTC. Christians did not set off bombs in Bali. Christians did not bomb the london underground. Christians did not bomb Spanish Trains. Christians did not stab Theo Van Gogh to death. Christians did not cut off Daniel Pearls head.
flattax
4 years ago
Oh and i can change this if you wish...
Christianists are not strapping bombs to their back. Christianists did not fly planes into the WTC. Christianists did not set off bombs in Bali. Christianists did not bomb the london underground. Christianists did not bomb Spanish Trains. Christianists did not stab Theo Van Gogh to death. Christianists did not cut off Daniel Pearls head.
G West. Open you eyes, read and learn! Let it sink it. The truth may disturb your worldview, but an islamist terrorist attack would disturb it even more.
demotto
4 years ago
Christians
don`t have the balls to do that, they use cluster bombs and DUI weapons so the killing can last for years
G West
4 years ago
Terrorists did those things
Their religion had very little to do with it.
Christianists are every bit as dangerous as Islamists, and they have a lot more firepower.
I have read and learned. The problem is, you haven't. You've simply followed a long string of neo-con lies.
murdock
4 years ago
Doing...
questions DPL.
Here is one answer:
we're serving, die(ing) like a fool, (getting) beer, curse(d), march(ing), wait(ing) for supports, An’ go(ing) to your Gawd like a soldier.
So-oldier of the Queen!
http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/verse/volumeXI/youngbritishsoldier.html
2 centuries and nothing new!
murdock
4 years ago
flattax(ed) earth man
Fine then I advocate backing off (at least until we can muster a GOLDEN HORDE) and use our advanced tech to solve the 'training camp' problem. At the same time I advocate finding 'friendlies' and supplying them with whatever they need to fight their way in their country, no more blood sacrifices for NO RETURN.
murdock
4 years ago
who brought the enlightenment?
you are talking about the Holy Roman Empire and the collapse of that theocracy.
The beginning of the Enlightenment came from Muslim Spain and the remaining books in Constatinople, then called Istanbul.
Stop blaming 'Islamists' for this, it is akin to blaming Buddhists for the Vietnam War.
flattax
4 years ago
Good points
Quote: "Christians don`t have the balls to do that, they use cluster bombs and DUI weapons so the killing can last for years"
Agreed, But we need technology and advanced firepower to make up for our low population numbers. But we are not targeting frendlies or innocents as they are. All they have is strength in demographics, but more importantly for them, ideology.
Quote: "At the same time I advocate finding 'friendlies' and supplying them with whatever they need to fight their way in their country, no more blood sacrifices for NO RETURN.
Agreed completely!
Quote: "The beginning of the Enlightenment came from Muslim Spain and the remaining books in Constatinople, then called Istanbul."
Ancient history. I cannot prove or disprove. But what the hell happened to them to put the back into the dark ages? I am talking about the now.
BC Dude
4 years ago
Flat derailed trax I bet you
Flat derailed trax
I bet you get all your real news from Can'tWest.
Checkout the latest news on Isreal. Olmert now there is a real yankee coward!
Herr S Harper, and Herr P Martin, Throw the traitors out now! They are destroying all that makes CANADA a Sovereign Peace Keeping Nation along with Herr G Campbell and UnderHerr R Klien!
How screwed up is this?
Parliamentary immunity protects top Mountie from perjury, court hears. Parliamentary immunity = "Get Out of Prison Free"
www.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=0d5b
BC Dude
4 years ago
But don't be a voice for OUR
But don't be a voice for OUR PLANET!
http://sisis.nativeweb.org/sov/allnahan.html
Betty Krawczyk
http://bettysearlyedition.blogspot.com/2007/0
10 months in jail?
A cop who was caught for Luring two young girls (12 and 15) for the purpose of supposedly taking pics, gets ONE DAY IN JAIL
www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2007/
BC Dude
4 years ago
Where have all the Good cops
Where have all the Good cops gone?
"WE NEED WHISTLE BLOWER PROTECTION NOW"
Demoted, drummed out, totally and publicly assassinated by head RCMP and media! Politicaly owned Zaccardummy etal.
murdock
4 years ago
Where have all the Good cops gone?
Good question BC Dude.
I opine that they have gone to the private sector, al la Kim Rossmo.
The 'old guard' and 'union' methods of running a police force are of less interest to the potential 'up-and-coming' crop of new officers. These new brains will take their ground-level training with the RCMP, then once they are in the corporal to staff-sergeant level take those hard-won and vital skills elsewhere, leaving only the dullards and obsequious, sycophantic followers behind.
Whistle-blower protection will not do now.
Special prosecutors and a political will to throw-off the RCMP dictates from Ottawa are needed to clean-out the ranks in BC.
A return to the BC Constabulary would not hurt either.
flattax
4 years ago
BC Dude
Quote: "Herr S Harper, and Herr P Martin, Throw the traitors out now! They are destroying all that makes CANADA a Sovereign Peace Keeping Nation along with Herr G Campbell and UnderHerr R Klien!"
What are you implying? If you are trying to say Canada is a peacekeepign nation then remember something, and try to think about it tonight:
POLITICAL POWER COMES OUT OF THE BARREL OF A GUN
which also has the implication that:
PEACE COMES OUT OF THE BARREL OF A GUN
Since without political power, how can you "enforce" a peace?
BC Dude
4 years ago
flattax you sound like a
flattax you sound like a coward with a big mouth hiding behind a blog! Listen here if you want to use assinine talk like that then maybe you should join the military and go to Afghanistan!
See where your big mouth gets you over there.
BYE
We are Peacekeepers and We will again one day get that great reputation back!
S Harper, P Martin, War criminals all!
With PET's son running for politics We have a chance!
margot
4 years ago
Back to torture
In case you missed it, here's the link to the podcast of the interview of the year on the CBC. The As It Happens crew and Carol were soooo good, they may need lots of support. And praise be to podcasts!
http://podcast.cbc.ca/mp3/asithappens_20070427_2174.mp3
According to Cherif Bassiouni:
detainees handed over by Canadian forces can be then handed over to the US-controlled NDS, Afghan secret police, officially but not really controlled by Karzai. You knew it, I knew it, this former UN independent expert on human rights in Afghanistan, says it! He talks about US$ private homes, "black holes", "ghost houses", where torture and unlimited, otherwise unmonitored etc. detention are the game. He calls this "daisy chain" a move that gives the Canadian military "plausible deniability".
It seems that what isn't getting into the debate is the extent to which "special" US forces, not part of NATO, are running the torture shows with impunity, out of sight. O'Connor, Harper, Hillier et al, know exactly what they don't know.
flattax
4 years ago
BC Dude you are neutered by Liberal propaganda
I would like to go to A-stan but unfortunately, they would never take me. I am too old.
Would you call WWI peacekeeping? how about WWII, was that peacekeeping? I would hardly call a few lame UN missions to gaza and cypres peacekeeping.
As the CBC likes to point out: Vimy ridge and other great WARtime battles formed us as a nation. Not peacekeeping. We are not a nation of peacekeepers, but peacemakers...by superior arms and tactics and not being afraid to project that force.
By calling harper and martin war criminals, you show yourself as someone who lacks perspective. Go back to your noble savage utopia your mind has created.
PET's son?!?!?!? Make me laugh. He will turn out to be another Belinda Stronach, IMO. Thankfully, the Liberals are saddled with Seline Dion which will give the Tories a majority in the next election.
G West
4 years ago
propaganda
This is just nonsense. A convenient lie promoted by politicians and media junkies.
murdock
4 years ago
'nation' notion
hmm, it served as a little blood-fest that garnered a few headlines in London press for a week or so...this was then touted asa 'crucible of nationhood' about 12 years later. Further on...when almost all of the vets from that battle were dead, it was called a nation forming event!
WWI was called 'the war to end all wars', yet were this true WWII would never have happened. Presumably, all wars ended after WWII, yet the 'Cold War' grew out of a frightening planet-killing arms race that started along the fault lines of the ending points of the 'allies' of WWII.
If 'the Canada' is a nation, it started as an idea of such a nation with the Quebec Act and ended with Confederation; 60 years before your idea that Vimy created anything other than a very long list of new widows.
murdock
4 years ago
war criminals?
I disagree, if any blame needs to be laid at a top political leaders feet it belongs in Jean Cretien's lap. It was during his final time at the helm that the Canadian military was sent out into this misadventure. A leader with exactly zero understanding of what military power is to be used for, as the previous large action that the CF was part of was started by Mila Mulroney in Croatia, Cretien inherited that one and along the way made sure to cut out the financial feet of the military so that it could not perform anything like it ever again.
Ultimately, Mr. Gordon O'Connor, the Canadian Minister of National Defence, and General Rick Hillier, the Canadian Chief of the Defence Staff; are the current incumbents of these important positions and are liable for their actions under the rules of the Geneva Conventions, held accountable by the ICC.
Since we, the Canadian citizenry, are not holding our leaders and military officials to the standards that our past leaders have agreed to, it is for these other officials, to whom we (as a nation) in the past have agreed to.
Notwithstanding the agreements of the Geneva Conventions, it just makes sense to not be handing over everyone that we take prisoner (sorry detainee) in the course of our actions in Afghanistan over to anyone whom is, or has, displayed poor practices in the past. We open ourselves up, or rather our soldiers up, to equally bad treatment when they are taken.
(for the warmongers whom think that our Canadian soldiers will never be taken prisoner, you had better wake up to the unpleasant reality that the CF is outnumbered by greater than 1000 to 1 in the nation. While they are mostly not interested in conflict it will only take a ratio of 20:1 to bring them all down in a hurry. According to British sources the 20:1 ratio was fast approaching in Helmand Province, and was a big factor in the re-negotiation of the prisoners issue that this article is all about)
YOU maybe, not me; so keep the WE stuff to yourself.
Justin will make for an interesting side-show, like Mr. Dithers though I suspect the 'in action' will be less than was expected.
murdock
4 years ago
the FLATTAXed earth
which also has the implication that:
PEACE COMES OUT OF THE BARREL OF A GUN
Tell that to Ghandi or Mandela
Stump
4 years ago
Amorality
Flattax generously pointed out:
for those of us living under a rock for the past decade.
On the other hand "Christian" countries do ship guns to countries that use children soldiers and continue to manufacture land mines.
There's plenty of blood on our hands too.
G West
4 years ago
murdock
THis is off topic, but you might want to see if you could get hold of Nick Kristof's column from the NYTimes today. I know it's behind subscription but, if you want it, let me know and I'll find a way to get it to you.
demotto
4 years ago
flattax
So we`re not killing innocent civilians, seems to me there were large protests in Afghanistan today or yesterday because of just that. I think killing innocent people to secure a pipeline route for oil is immoral and the quicker our so called leaders are tried for war crimes the better. The senence by the way for War Crimes And Crimes Against Humanity is life in prison, as stated in the Criminal Code of Canada.
flattax
4 years ago
murdock
Mandela was a terrorist, a murderer and a coward. He was so violent that Amnesty internation took him off thier list!
Gandi preached non violence, while forcing the British to leave india with the unspoke threat of violence. In fact, he was a half naked fakir, as churchill said, who had no influence on the British leaving. The british were so weakened by WW2, they could not hold onto the empire. Gandi has been revered because the modern india needed a figurehead for unity. He was useful because he was dead.
In both cases, both of then forced peace solutions out of the barrel of a gun. Mandela directly, but Gandi indirectly.
G West
4 years ago
flattax
You don't seem to know much about Mandela, Gandhi or Churchill - including how to spell Gandhi.
murdock
4 years ago
I found one!
I so totally understand!
flattax is a true believer.
Yes flattax, you are right, (very right) and I will discontinue bothering to try and show you another way to see the world that was and is.
You may return to your regularly scheduled Ministry of Love broadcast.
flattax
4 years ago
G West
I am not a writer, and I do not bother with a spell check, in the interest of speed. And occasionally I mispell a word on purpose to show my disdain for a topic or for non anglophone words, as I did for "Gandi".
I believe I my knowledge of Gandi is more than Ben Kingsley's portrayel, which is where most people get their knowledge. Never trust a man that drinks his own pee.
And Mandela is on par with Arafat. Both are war criminals, that were cannonized in the interest of nationalism and propaganda.
G West
4 years ago
You don't know what you're talking about
The British were perfectly prepared to surrender India long before the Second World War.
I'm at work right now - having my lunch - I'll pull the references for you later.
You might want to recall that Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin shook hands on the White House lawn after signing the Oslo Accord and that it was Rabin who was assassinated by Jewish extremists.
But, that being quite another matter, Arafat and Mandela are in no way comparable. And there is plenty of evidence to support that and to refute your claim about military power being the creative force behind the new South Africa.
Despite its power, the apartheid regime succumbed, thankfully; as did the colonial power structure that had ruled India, again thankfully but none too soon.
Jeff74
4 years ago
Mind numbing
Drivel
G West
4 years ago
You don't know what you're talking about
The British were perfectly prepared to surrender India long before the Second World War.
I'm at work right now - having my lunch - I'll pull the references for you later.
You might want to recall that Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin shook hands on the White House lawn after signing the Oslo Accord and that it was Rabin who was assassinated by Jewish extremists.
But, that being quite another matter, Arafat and Mandela are in no way comparable. And there is plenty of evidence to support that and to refute your claim about military power being the creative force behind the new South Africa.
Despite its power, the apartheid regime succumbed, thankfully; as did the colonial power structure that had ruled India, again thankfully but none too soon.
Jeff74
4 years ago
Hstory
Yes, and India is much stronger for getting rid of that yoke. Now they are the world's worst offender for child slave labour. Actively persue "honour" killings. Ad is on the verge of complete collapse.
Damned Brits. It must somehow all be their fault.
ov
4 years ago
Western Imperialism
Just because Western Imperialism has its power center in the city of London doesn't mean it is the Brits fault. Look at who the elite are that have been screwing the world over for hundreds of years.
G West
4 years ago
Jeff74
you need to learn to read a little more critically. The point was relative to this post from flattax:
Which he later elaborated into a comparison between Arafat and Mandela and a disquisition about the relative values of Gandhi and Churchill.
As I said, I'll post the material relative to India and Churchill later.
Stump
4 years ago
Poor speller or plain old racist?
Some people might consider it old-fashioned good manners to take the trouble to spell someone's name properly, esp. when the right spelling is easy to find.
Never trust a man who sacrifices accuracy for speed. A truism most women learn the 'hard' way.
G West
4 years ago
flattax
Churchill and India:
I purposely chose a conservative historian for this little narrative.
Emphasis mine.
BC Dude
4 years ago
www.ceasefire.ca/site/pp.aspx
http://www.ceasefire.ca/site/pp.aspx?c=afLJJWOuHkE&b=1068135
Fire them now as!