Apparently

We still have a ways to go before we hit bottom as a recent poll indicated Gordon Campbell, the premier of British Columbia had increased his popularity by 4%. The message that Campbell is selling off the assets of BC is not getting through. This means the average voter is still getting their news and opinion from TV, Radio and newspapers. How can so called educated people not see the difference in the spin from this Government and the NDP? Glen Clarks deck vs. the loss of BC Rail? Sooner or later you have to come to the conclusion that the majority want to continue selling our future for profit. How do you continue to fight this losing battle?

As Ed Deak has said many times, it's just the same fascist plots to plunder wealth and that's not going to change any time soon. We are not evolving as a society and we're going to repeat mistakes of the past over and over again.

Just as the end of ancient society's fascinate us today, will we will be the fascination of a future civilization? Our footprint and our legacy will be left behind for 10's of thousands of years. Who or what will be left to cope is anyone's guess...

Weaknesses borne out

Thanks for an informed analysis.

This should be "borne out". http://www.cjr.org/tools/lc/borne.asp

I just can’t figure out

I just can’t figure out why May decided to run in such a Conservative stronghold. McKay’s riding isn’t even in question and she has a lot of work to do to make it a winnable riding. If she did it to send a message, she should have run in Harper’s south Calgary riding, her chance of winning is about the same.

As for Dion, this deal just allows him to continue being all talk about the environment. His track record as the Liberal Environment Minister was anything but green. The only thing he cares about is appearing green to get votes; I doubt he’ll do much more for the environment than the Conservatives, if elected.

I heard a quote similar to this but I can't remember who said it. Whoever it was said "History may never repeat itself, but it sure does rhyme!” I thought that was a pretty accurate take on the world.

not so GREEN any more

I had been voting green in protest, I did not like the new leader, nor the flawed process used to decide that leader.

This analysis takes my vote away from the current version of Canada's Green party, they should re-name it the "watermelon" party - green on the outside, LIEberal red on the inside.

Grumpy, vote Independant or purposely spoil your ballot - make sure that you get it registered as a spoiled or refused ballot.

Maybe we can either get enough inde's into the commons or have the whole declared invalid with not enough votes.

Ultimately I am still searching for a BC first party or candidate that is willing to stick to their principles ... guess that was flushed down the toilet with Darth Cretinous as well as the 'regional vetoes' and 'western alienation' once the CONformers got into 24 Sussex.

Why wait for someone else Murdock?

I'm just curious Murdock, if you are dissatisfied with the candidates that run, why don't you go into politics? I hear a lot of people say there is not enough real selection in politics, but they never try to change that themselves. I am doubtful that spoiling ballots (though I respect this practice A LOT more than just not showing up to vote) will actually cause any change. Is there any reason that you couldn’t run? I know it takes time to actually establish a national party that can make changes, but it is doable. Look at the strides the Green Party has made, they’ve gone from a few dissatisfied people to a nationally recognized party that appears in every riding across Canada.

Awesome!!

I am thrilled to see the Green and Liberal parties cooperating to defeat Harper. I hope we see more of this kind of thing in the future. Way to do things different Dion and May!!

The NDP are total loons - like this article

1. Listen Mackay is a traitor who betrayed the PC parry and allowed Harpo and the boys to gain control.

2. May, a former PCer is perfectly positioned to slay him in "his" riding.

3. The NDP are behaving more like spurned lovers than sensible adults.

4. The NDP are bleating about two parties getting together and saying okay look Canada faces a grave danger from the Cons, let's do sometying about it, no matter how small.

5. The NDP does not want the Greens running in tight races here in BC - hypocrisy at it's best

6. And when I say NDP I include all the leftist reactionaries that populate this board, including the author.

7. There have been plenty of elections and By-elections in Canada where parties let other parties run unopposed in order to let the "new" leader to gain a seat in Parliament.

8. Layton is massive disappointement - I lived in TO when he was councillor and I had high hopes for him - instead he's just become another functionary of big labour - the twin sibling of big money.

9. The NDP are the Cons enablers in everything from forcing the election that gave Harpo thge reins, to the RCMP bullshit non-charge, to covering for Harpo on the Environment to using the same language as the Cons on this matter "backroom deal" - funny I don;t see any money changing hands - just a sensible policy.

NDP snivel

Nailed it My Brain is on Fire. What a bunch of NDP snivelers. Cry me a river.

NDP propaganda

This article should come with a disclaimer saying "the author of this article is an NDPer" and a subheader explaining that NDPers are always pointing at the $1.80/vote as the rationale for any of the Green Party's purported motives. As if the Greens were only interested in money (and as if the NDP didn't have any, of the core NDP agena were about money, i.e. wages).

And using "flip flop" to attack May for breaking the vow to run in every country in the country (well, except Vancouver Kingsway now...) seems to be a CanWestGlobal-style attempt to demean her character, like "Mr. Dithers" and now "Mr. Wobbles". "Mr. Wobbles" would be the guy who wants to open the leaders' debate to Ms. May. Among hte parties who want to keep her out, of cousre, is the NDP. Presumably because they're only concerned about the $1.80 vote they'll lose if their vote drops below 10% or whatever it is (and it's not far from doing that). If Martin was Dithers, and Dion is Wobbles, why can't we just call Jack Layton Mr. Hypocrite?

Even more comical, for a long time the NDP would come to Greens asking themp not to run in certain ridings (while of course never offering to stand aside themselves). This when they weren't coming to Green nomination meetings and trying procedural-block or otherwise filibuster the nominations. Yup, the NDP really believe in open democracy all right....

This may be a bad deal for the Liberals, as Dobbins avers; but NOT for the Greens, as I think the hustings will play out; it's definitely gonna be a bad deal for the NDP. Especially because smarmy articles like this one are seen by most people as exactly what they are - smarmy attack ads dressed up as "soft news".

Quote: 5. The NDP does not

Quote:

5. The NDP does not want the Greens running in tight races here in BC - hypocrisy at it's best

Bang on...

Yuppers... hypocrisy at its best!

Sad

This is sleezy politics at its best. Back-room and sly. You vote for me, i'll vote for you. This isn't a game Stephane.

Realistically, McKay should still carry the riding. As the writer commented, just to tie, May would need all of the Liberal votes and 1/2 of the NDP votes to tie McKay. Not likely.

Dion is a disaster already. Imagine if he became PM. I think this was a bad political move. You can't just do this. It is deceitful and a sign of things to come.

ah cappy on the wrong side of history eh

Come on brother, make a choice - May or Layton or Dion or Layton, which would be better for the country?

It's not a backroom deal if everyone knows about it.

NDP desperate

Doesn't appear to have been that bad of a move to me. The polls are narrowing again substantially between the Conservatives and the Liberals. Yep you can smell the fear and desperation from the NDP's. Keep spinning though..by all means...it will only work against you in the end.

Better

Harper with a majority would be the best alternative. Provided he turf Flaherty.

If the NDP really cared

If the NDP cared about real democratic reform in this country it would be banging on Dion's door and Elizabeth May's door continuously to form a coalition based on the principles the three parties share - including Cabinet posts - in order to keep Harper in opposition where he belongs with about 38% of the national popular vote.

The only thing you have to know to understand that the May/Dion deal is good for the country is to look at what someone like Cappy has to say about it. He doesn't like it - that's prima facie proof to me that it is a change whose time has come.

Only candidates with a chance of beating conservatives should run against these characters who are bent upon turning us into a Republic.

Cappy only cares about his own self-interest and the other three parties need to wake up and keep Cappy and Harper on the sidelines where they belong so that we can begin making of this country what it has the potential to be.
Murray Dobbin, Jack Layton and anyone else who's listening, you're wrong on this one. Dead wrong. I just wish more people would start emailing their representatives and tell them how wrong they actually are. The next election could be the start of some real positive change in this country - it's just too bad that some national politicians are too dumb to see it.

Let's give Harper a real message. Thank you Ms May.

NDP should also cooperate with May

I like NDPer James Laxer's take on it.
From today's Globe:

"Meanwhile, Jim Laxer, a former party leadership candidate in the early 1970s and a political scientist, said he supports the idea of not running a [NDP] candidate against Ms. May. A pact could help unite the opposition against Mr. Harper, Mr. Laxer said.

"I kind of think the deal is interesting because it's got some potential for a way for opposition parties who don't want to be divided up by Stephen Harper," he said.

He said Mr. Harper is dealing with the opposition against him piecemeal, which makes it difficult for the opposition to coalesce.

Mr. Laxer also said Ms. May should be part of the debate.

"I think she should be in the debate, but based on some kind of rule like 5 per cent [of the vote]," he said.

Mr. Laxer said the Greens, with 660,000 votes in the last election "clearly deserve a member of Parliament. . . . People should think of this on a higher level."
***********************************
I'm relieved to see national opinion polls
rethinking Harper's Tories. The most recent polls show Harper pulling back from the potential majority territory he was flirting with briefly, to a much tighter Tory-Grit race.
http://www.recorder.ca/cp/National/070417/n0417106A.html
Sanity's starting to resume?

Globe article link

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070418.NDP18/TPStory/National

NDP helped Liberals win in London, ON.

My guess is that Kelly, a socialist, would have unilaterally decided not to run candidates in ridings where the NDP was in close races with the Conservatives.

Elizabeth May and the Greens received 25.8% of the vote vs the NDP's 14.1%, the Liberals 34.9% and the Conservatives 24.5% in the recent London, ON byelection (see http://enr.elections.ca/ElectoralDistricts_e.aspx?ed=1382 ).

25.8% + 14.1% = 39.9% combined Green/NDP, 5% more than the Liberals' 34.9%. If the NDP hadn't run a candidate and had endorsed May in this riding, she may have been elected instead of the Liberal being elected. But the NDP was busy attacking the Greens, as usual.

You're equating the Liberals with the Conservatives. And yet, the NDP clearly helped elect a Liberal in the London, ON riding - a riding where the NDP didn't have a hope in hell themselves.

This is confusing. Do you mean sow as in plant seeds, or sew as in work with a needle and thread. Just needling, ya. We all make little mistakes. But you've made a really big mistake if you think the Greens are going to unilaterally pull candidates from close ridings where the NDP has a chance without the NDP helping the Greens in return.

run in what? for whom and why?

I find that I am less dissatisfied with the candidates, than I am with the system that they are forced to 'play along with'.

It matters not whom is elected under the party system that is enforced by party whips and the iron power of nomination forms signatures. Without the 'party machines' supporting a candidate the chances of actually being elected are next to nil.

I saw it first hand in the 'debates' around here, where the BC Liberal candidates never, I repeat, never showed.

The 'average' voter also does not care.

I looked into jumping into the federal arena in the last election when the 'snap' call came before xmas season, it was next to impossible to get the volunteers together (I had worked on arranging some, but not enough were committed) and when a boiler-room was run and loads of calls made to sound-out the possibilities, a saw-off betweeen the NDP and CONformers was clear...a repeat of the last election, not only that but few could name the candidates, the majority were voting along party lines.

Therefore, it makes very, very little sense for a non-millionare to waste the $$$$ for the nomination and then have no $$$$ for the advertising // travel // etc needed for a federal election ~ doubly so for me since I think BC should get out of confederation or at least exercise more rights within it as Quebec does!

G West

Just saw your post. I agree with what you wrote. Layton IS making a big mistake in opposing, instead of cooperating with Elizabeth May.

It doesn't help my perception of him to know he is campaigning against a May presence in
a leadership debate. Many Canadians would like to see May in debates.

I thought May did the right thing in vetoing
wind bag Kevin Potvin's bid to run as a Green candidate. The comments Potvin made just gave
ammo to Harper to use to paint the Greens and by extension Dion, as tolerant of
apologists for violence against civilians.

NDP are "sleezy" too....

Yeah, except when NDP organizers and attack-protestors were besieging Green nomination and constituency-organization meetings, they wern't saying "you vote for me, I'll vote for you", they were saying "vote for me, because I'm not going to let you run so people can vote for you".

It's really odd how NDP supporters accuse the Greens of sleazy politics when they've been waging sleazy political tactics, low-level and high-level, at the Greens since that party first began forming back in 1983.

Looking for moral flaws or political cupidity in the Greens is like a witch-hunt by NDP supporters; but how little they take the moral microscope to themselves. Especially in regards to their own interference and fifth-column activites within the Greens over the years....

I do gotta say, getting guys like Al Timberlake to get in on the ground floor of the Greens so they could bail out and denounce the party soon afterwards....that was a class act, y'know. Worthy of David Emerson, in fact....

Debate airtime proportional to previous vote?

...she [Elizabeth May] should be in the debate, but based on some kind of rule like 5 per cent [of the vote]

It would make sense to let every party leader talk for a fraction of the air time equal to the fraction of the vote they received in the previous election.

But no lower thresholds though. It would be a lot of fun to see what the Marxists could do with their few seconds of airtime. They might have enough time to squeeze-in a "Running dog capitalist exploiters of the masses" or two. I wouldn't object to the microscopic parties receiving $1.75 per vote too. This could help the Marxists scrape together enough cash for a fleabitten Chairman Mao jacket from a garage sale to wear during their 5 seconds of airtime.

irreconcilable differences

Gee, the rabid anti-NDP racket in here is deafening. You'd think that the NDP were the reason for all the problems in this country. Last time I checked, it was the Liberals and now the Conservatives that were selling out the Canadian people. But apparently, according to all the previous rants, the NDP are the real threat, the fifth column (fascists!?), and anti-democratic. I guess they must be doing something right if everyone is constantly attacking them.

The reason the NDP doesn't go in with the Greens on a pact is because they are a labour party, and the Greens aren't, plain and simple. Maybe they should trade some ridings, and get some more seats hopefully, but the fact remains that NDP voters might very well not vote Green and visa versa.

Most Green voters are economic liberals who would never vote NDP, hence the frothing and foaming at the mouth by many of our posters against the NDP who refuses to bow out of ridings and let the Greens take the leftover votes. Even if NDP votes moved to the Greens in such a case, they probably wouldn't be enough to win the seat. And the same goes for Green voters in the case of an NDP only riding. Most Green voters would vote Liberal, Conservative, or other or just not vote.

People forget that the NDP and Greens have very different economic and social ideology. That's the root of the current impasse between them and it's something that will never be solved. The NDP will never give in and the Greens won't either.

Jim Harris's accomplishments.

...Jim Harris, the inept leader

The Greens' vote was as small and irrelevant as the communist vote before Jim Harris took over. He grew the vote to the point where it's as big as the difference between a Conservative government and a Liberal government or a minority government vs a majority. Both the Conservatives and Liberals are keenly aware of this, so they're both busy stealing ideas from the Greens to attract that vote - which is exactly what's needed.

Speaking of communists, the Greens' leader before Harris switched to the NDP when she was displaced by Harris. And that's exactly where she belongs, considering that she has a lot of communist type ideas that were responsible for producing a communist level of support in the polling booths.

Jim Harris is currently doing excellent work with the Cleantech Innovation Institute to arrange financing for hybrid cabs. These are the types of concrete, practical steps that need to be taken to save huge amounts of money while simultaneously providing significant environmental benefits.

I prefer the Greens' approach to the environment because they usually try to do it in a way that is overall revenue-neutral or even revenue-positive, as in the case of working all-out to convert every taxi to hybrid. The first Vancouver cab driver to switch to hybrid saves $900-$1,100 per month on fuel and his repair bills are half of what they used to be. See http://lwww.alternet.org/envirohealth/23932/?comments=view&cID=21644&pID=21639

yzerman19

No one is asking the NDP to give up its principles - in fact quite the contrary. What is being suggested, at least by me, is a formal coalition between the Liberals, the NDP and the Greens. Something worked out formally and openly so that all the voters in the country have a chance to know what's being suggested.

I think we need electoral reform in this country so that we no longer have a government that makes all the decisions for the whole country on the basis of what, a 38 - 40% share of public support. The only way to force this change is to find a way to use the circumstances on the ground to get a coalition government of people who agree to such a change.

If that requires some REAL strategic voting so be it. The ALTERNATIVE IS FAR WORSE - in my view. Neither the NDP nor the Greens have to 'give in' as you put it. What's required is a careful strategic analysis of which candidate has the best chance, on a riding by riding basis, of beating the conservatives.

This is not rocket science. The Liberals lust for a return to power and they know they can't get it without help. Let's give them the help by setting the price for cooperation. In my view, it's that, or get ready for a long period of majority right wing fundamentalist government.

May and Dion have just made the first step- it's now up to long-time NDP supporters to tell Mr Layton he's wrong. The real choice here is between a coalition government where each of the parties involved get something positive - as do the people of the whole country - or we end up with Harper which is only good for his narrow band of self-interested and selfish supporters.

Simple. Stevie Y would know what to do, IMO. I’m not mad about Elizabeth May either, but she’s a damn site better than pee wee Rambo and she needs to be in the debate. I think she’d be a real ornament in Parliament too. If she wants to set a price that involves a real commitment to meeting the challenge of Global Warming hey, more power to her.

O.T.: "Insurgency" at CanWest?

The Asper gang may be today questioning their hiring of columnist Andrew Coyne. Coyne today demonstrates what a maverick he can be at times, capable of ripping to shreds the CanWest "party line", on occasion.

The Nat. Post apparently ran an editorial recently trashing the notion of PR (Proportional Representation).

It was entertaining to read Coyne's trashing of his own paper's editorial position on PR in a column entitled "The National Post is Wrong on PR". What refreshing disloyalty!
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/editorialsletters/story.html?id=c6e11774-0115-4702-8236-fbef8af027d5
Coyne points out the many specious arguments, and dubious pronouncements the editorial puts forth about PR.

I'm not a big Coyne fan, but as a supporter of PR, I was glad to see a CanWest journalist give the twin Asper family godfathers and their lackeys some comeuppance from within for a change.

Yes and if you look

at I think it was Monday's Globe and Mail Letters Section all of them were in favour of the deal 'tween May and Dion - the peeps know what's in their best interests - Harper out, period.

Laxter is to be commended in the face of all the mindless attacks from NDP stalwarts - if you can't get beyond simply being a labour party and broaden the NDP reach, then all the shrill shrieking will only serve to hasten the NDP's demise.

yeah saw that Coyne column on the bus this morning

...and even better Coyne's column was on the Editorial page taking up most of the real estate - is canwest coming around to balance after all these money-losing years?

we'll see how long coyne get's to keep his gig (and the ed. page editor).

G West

Sorry but the NDP's principles are in direct opposition to the Liberals and the Greens. That's why they can't budge on forming a coalition. The Liberals are the same old story, and as soon as they get back into power they will do the same as they always do. They run for elections from the centre-left, and govern from the right. There can be no compromise with them, they're as bad as the Tories, and play the same role as the Dems in the US.

And the NDP's environmental platform is more green than the Greens as many environmentalists have pointed out.

Oh yeah, MBIOF, last time I checked the "labour" contingent of Canadian society and every other industrial society, those who work for a wage , was like 90% of the population. I don't think the NDP really needs to broaden their constituency to include big business or those who follow it's mantra of the "free market".

There's a deep undercurrent of dissatisfaction around, and the NDP actually needs to move left instead of right in order to attract new voters. Laxer is a marxist and is not in any way endorsing the Greens or in favour of watering down NDP any more than it already is.

The NDP is in no danger of demise, in fact it's the Liberals who are in danger, which is why they're so desperate to srtike alliances with the NDP and Greens. There's not much room left for both the Liberals and Tories because they almost look the same these days and people are finally starting to figure it out.

the libs need more time in

the libs need more time in the penalty box and the ndp are irrelevant. harper's here to stay for a while longer. thank god.

Noticed it too

I have noticed this more balanced approach from the NP and CanWest in general this past month and a bit. Both sides are often represented now instead of just one side. If this keeps up I may have to renew my subscription to a CanWest paper.

CanWest

Maybe they would think hard before dumping Coyne for being too independent a thinker,
'cause he's one of their highest profile scribes now, including the fact he's a regular on CBC's The National's "At Issue" panel. But CanWest has been known to dump other high profile writers for independent thinking, including that ex-Ottawa Citizen editor, who was well regarded in the biz.

About CanWest losing $$$. Are they ever dishonest about readership claims! I noticed a CanWest article some months back trumpeting a surge in Nat. Post readership, suggesting they were beating the competition.

But more recently the stats from the org. that does objective audits of PAID readership of newspapers, showed quite a divergent result...It's the Globe, apparently, that's been gaining paying readers (largely due to their popular B.C. section attracting B.C. readers), not the Post!
The Post apparently has been dumping free or nearly-free copies here, there and everywhere, and then claiming a readership surge! Pretty dishonest sounding.

Yes MyBrain..., I think CanWest will continue to bleed red ink, and appeal to a minority,unless their hammering on positions attains a lot more balance, tolerating a variety of views. Till then, I say "let it bleed".

Laxer does sound like the kind of NDP thinker the party could use more of.
I wonder if some of Layton's questionable decisions are coming out of desperation, as NDP poll #s aren't too healthy.

Quote:If the NDP cared about

Right on.

dude most labourers are not as you define them

You know what, most people want and do have careers and not simply jobs - the NDP problems is painting everyone with the same brush - we're all mindless workers needing big unions to protect us - sorry buddy but some of us have been in an union environments where a person's age and not ability drives their success - it's a problem the unions simply are not capable of dealing with.

Sure some need protection but others do not - in the NDP world everyone is the same, in reality that is not true. And all your squawking won't change reality or people's need to be unique and succeed in their own terms - not in some big poppa obey-me-for-life terms.

I know of no one who wants to be called a labourer or a worker - we all strive for being better than a simple workhorse - why is it the NDP wants to chain us all together in misery instead of letting us soar?

I'm certain even union members recoil at the thought they are simple labourers as well.

Your semantic arguments are pitiable.

But let's be peacable

The Greens are here to stay and I echo everyone else who are calling for some of the NDP to get off their high horse and start coming down to Earth with the rest of us mortals.

Harper is worth forming a coalition against. Blind obedience is Harper's problem and apparently it's the NDP's as well, if they continue along these lines - especially the churlish behaviour of those NDP MP's calling for the Greens to once again be excluded from the debate.

Build relationships, don't destroy them before they can even be born.

interesting stuff in there

interesting stuff in there brain. the bctf has transformed teachers from 'an association of professionals' to 'trade unionists', as witnessed in the last illegal job action. talk about a kick in the pants to teachers who don't share the extremists views. a teacher-friend of mine saw jim sinclair tell teachers, when referring to the partnership they have with cupe, that they have to 'break down the barriers between the custodians and the teachers'. such drivel.

CanWest changing stripes?

If what ChrisA says is true (that CanWest/NP may be deliberately opening up dialogue), conspiracy theorists might entertain the notion that Coyne may even have been encouraged to write a challenge to the NP editorial, in order to prove how tolerant of divergent views CanWest is becoming!

But personally, it just made me like Coyne a bit more, and the NP less, with NP looking slightly ridiculous.

The proof for me of CanWest changing its stripes will be when we start to see as many opinions sympathetic to Palestinians, as opinions supportive of a hard line hawkish Israel, in the NP.

I doubt that will ever happen, not until the Aspers sell the paper.

No surprise really. The

No surprise really. The Greens are conservatives with an environmental plan, nothing more and we know how conservatives operate...........

comments on G West's post

It's funny, though; if the so-called "left of centre parties" (although I don't think the Green Party is "left"....more "centre", tending to "right") lined up such an alliance, the right-wingers would howl about the outrage to democracy (as they and others are doing about the May-Dion deal).

Yet the reborn Tories are themselve the result of an electoral alliance, and a much more distasteful one when you get down to it, and both predecessor parties were also electoral alliances and "political compacts" - the Tories with the Progressives, the Reform/Alliance a pasting-together or Social Credit, Liberal, tory and upstart-whackos. And Social Credit here in BC, infamously, regularly absorbed other groups (including the BC Liberals in their earlier incarnation, as well as the BC Tories) were all blatantly alliances of right wing candidates and voters to "keep out the godless socialists" and, in the federal case, "restore moral order to Canada" or whatever the Tory bandgwagon might most like to describe itself (but daren't, at least not in those words).

So point-blank: the right gets together electoral alliances all the time as a way for their minority of the electorate to control majority government - thanks to this First Past the Post plurality system we've got. Which is another one of those parts of the Canadian system that serves them (and only them) so well that the established political parties love to proclaim as a great system and it's working well, why fix it etc......

So the "left" should grow up and get out of the friggin' sandbox. If the NDP are serious about keeping a Harper majority government from happening, they'd be working on riding-by-riding deals and strategy analyses with Greens, Liberals, whomever.

Coyne and PR

I can’t remember if I’ve ever seen a columnist trash their own paper before. Pretty interesting.

I have to say, I like the proportional representation system that Ontario is proposing. Sounds a bit like the one used in Germany, which I think is good. I never have been a fan of STV, it is far too complex and there is far too great a chance of error or fraud. I would much rather see a PR system like this brought in here, simple yet effective.

The only downside to bringing a system like this in is that it would really hurt the Conservatives, which I think is unfortunate. But, for the sake of democratic renewal, I’ll just have to accept that.

Skookum1

Absolutely!

As a matter of fact virtually every Liberal good idea came from the left anyway.

A coalition and a share of power - along with an agreed program of reforms if the coalition forms the government - would make the right wing furious, but so what.

If the alternative is that Harper forms a government with 36-38% of the popular vote and the NDP stands by its so-called principles who wins? Certainly not the country.

In my view it's long past time to wake up and make a real effort to solve some of the fundamental problems that have turned this society on its head since about 1975.

If these people aren't smart enough to read the public mood then it's time the public started telling them in no uncertain terms what they EXPECT from their politicians.

It would drive me nuts to have to put an X beside a Liberal candidate's name in the next election, but, If that was the designated candidate chosen to beat a conman like Emerson (for example in Kingsway) and I lived there I'd hold my nose and do it.

And I'd consider it my patriotic duty to do it.

IF the politicians won't lead this movement then it's time the PEOPLE did. Elizabeth May and Stephane Dion have taken a baby step. I think Jack Layton's email inbox should be full of letters from party members telling him to wake up and smell the coffee.

It isn't just Carole James who is sleep walking.

CanWest..world class panderers

I know left leaning west coasters are starved for the mass media to throw more crumbs of support to their cause but don't they know that with both the Vancouver Sun and Province newspapers CanWest has got pandering to the left down to a fine art?
With Andrew Coyne they are practising the same subterfuge..pandering to the left in a sleasy attempt to gain readership and convince fence sitters that the right wing CPC are not a scary choice.

Coyne doesn't have a balanced bone in his body. It's all an act. He is (to borrow a phrase from Suzuki) way up Stephen Harper's backside and appears to have evolved genetically from the same strain of weasel as Peter MacKay.

This is what politics in Canada has come to. While those who want a healthy environment, social justice and quality education fracture into squabbling factions, the most venal weasels that have ever populated the political landscape...the Harpers, MacKays, Coynes, Aspers, Gordon Campbells,Mulroneys,Mike Harris, John Bairds et al are left almost unopposed to lay waste to our social safety nets and sell out our country to the worst war criminals the planet has ever known.

How hard can it be to defeat these bumbling fools? Just look at the lack of intellect and rabid hatred that characterizes most of their supporters.
You can see it in the likes of "elliot" on the Tyee but if you really want to see a vast array of drooling, illiterate buffoons stumping for the right wing, check out the postings on the Globe and Mail's website. It's an eye opener.

Then you have to ask yourself why the left and center left can't get it together to beat these droolers before we become the 51st state. A big part of the problem is that the federal liberal party still has right wing/Bay Street elements that cannot be trusted, but Dion is all 'Main Street' and the bottom line is that a coalition with the Liberals is the only way to save this country. The Liberals, like the CPC, are always run in a top down manner. With Dion at the helm, if he manages to strike deals with the other left of center parties to defeat the CPC, the influence of warmongers in his caucus will be neutered.

As noted in the thread on Glavin's Michael Moore hatchet job I have basically given up hope for our society and species..the greedy bastards are grinding us down to nothing. I just couldn't let Andrew Coyne get away (unopposed) with convincing left leaning people he wasn't a reptillian slimeball.

me shop at Army & Navy?

Yep , You nailed it there!

Everybody thinks that is he gets the keys to the executive washroom, then he has it made!

Problem is that only very few get that far, and even then the wonderful firm might just get gobbled up by a multinational, and you are out on your ass anyway!

So, yes indeed it is those dreamers who keep voting the libs and conservatives in, just as they pay a ransom to get to join the same countryclub as the boss!

Keep brown-nosing, see what it gets you!

Potvin and May

Latest update on Kevin's site points out that the Vancouver Sun has acknowledged in print that "an April 14 story incorrectly attributed a quote to Kevin Potvin.” (My personal opinion is that this whole event wasn't anything personal against Potvin, or because the powers that be were worried about him running for election, but rather because he was such a convenient target and example for what would happen to any politician that even hinted at the truth behind the taboo, namely who the war mongers might be that dictate our foreign policy.)

This leads into a Georgia Straight article by Charlie Smith that compares Mays actions to Preston Mannings big break into politics.

Quote:

In 1988, Reform Party Leader Preston Manning didn't have a seat in Parliament, and was struggling for credibility with the national media.

Then-North Shore News columnist Doug Collins won the party's nomination in the riding of Capilano-Howe Sound. The now-deceased Collins routinely filled his columns with racist commentary. Manning refused to sign his nomination papers, thereby cancelling his candidacy.

"Although the incident cost the party some initial support in the province, Manning's actions undoubtedly garnered the party support from more moderate voters," wrote sociologist Trevor Harrison in his 1995 book Of Passionate Intensity: Right-Wing Populism and the Reform Party of Canada. "By the end of 1988 the Reform party already was a substantial force. It gained further legitimacy the following year through the elections of Deborah Grey to the House of Commons and Stan Waters as Alberta's nominee to the Senate."

The Green Party of Canada has never won a seat in Parliament.

After the infamous press conference on Friday Kevin was talking with a group of people down at the pub kitty corner to city hall. I told him that I was concerned that his Republic Newspaper was suffering because he wanted to avoid significant issues that would hurt his political campaign, and that his demographic was about to dump him; he replied that "that was fine." So in the silver lining department maybe Kevin can go back to using his Republic News to highlighting the issues that should be discussed rather than the irreverent but irrelevant flatulence that has made up his last few issues.

Don't mind the PLC/Green alliance until...

...they start to kick out of the Green party outspoken freespirited folks.

And so what if Potvin went overboard on his 9/11 commentaries many moons ago. Must he now beg and kiss rear end like they all enjoy doing?

Do we we not indeed need fresh air instead of the same old crap from Dion regurgitating Chretien, Trudeau and Laurier crap. Potvin was interestingly acknowledging being "a poster boy for the Bloc Québécois", that is a second generation french canadian dead duck.

I can better understand the embarassment part to Dion now, never mind 9/11 WTC commentaries.

Perhaps the PLC and the greens should be more worried about preserving the ecosystem of the people than trying to save "la chouette huppée". Kicking out Potvin was a real low blow from Dion, "le câlife qui voulait être le Calife". Check wikipedia on the matter of the "Road to nowhere": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iznogood

yzerman

I agree.

The NDP should do exactly what Layton is doing, telling the Greens and Liberals to merge for all we care, we're not going to fall for the constant Liberal tactic of telling us to vote strategically because otherwise we'll get the scary Conservatives.

We have the Conservatives right now and you know what? I like them better than the Libs! Geez its nice having a government do what it says it is doing. Instead of Liberal bafflegab where they legislate one thing but tell us it means something different.

So let the Greens and Libs merge, let Dion trumpet on about how NDPers don't understand economics, good riddance to bad rubbish.

The NDP should be a party of the Left, if they formed a coalition with the Libs and Greens I might as well vote for Harper directly because it would be the same policies in the end.

Elizabeth May on Income Trusts, Abortion

I'm surprised that neither of these topics have come up in this lengthy number of posts.

On April 10 the Green Party called on the Conservatives to reverse course and restore the previous non-taxation scheme to the Income Trusts - a move that puts them to the right of even Stephen Harper!

And Elizabeth May has declared her position to be anti-abortion - so much so that Judy Rebick denounced and disowned her.

You can see this and my take on the ridiculous Red Green Show deal in my 24 hours column at

http://vancouver.24hrs.ca/Columnists/NewsViewsAttitude/

Or on my blog - send a comment too! - at:

http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/

Bill Tieleman

Andrew Coyne and PR

Coyne loves PR because its good for business.

No more tiny swings back and forth between the Libs and Cons. Under PR they'll always be in power together for ever more. Ontario will never again be NDP, nor will BC.

I can see why Coyne would be happy about that.

It'll also be nice that defeated cabinet ministers will still be in the legislature due to having to fill out those extra party seats. I hate it when the people actually vote cabinet ministers out of office.

And of course the best part is people will now have two votes, not one. This will be a godsend to fence-sitters and the terminally confused.

Then again, if the people of Ontario vote for it, at least we can watch and see how it turns out.

Total Loons

By the way, I think its great that those of us that like voting NDP are being called names by those who don't because we won't abandon the Left and join the Libs and Greens on the Right.

Maybe what you guys need to do is ask yourselves why your come hither looks don't work on us. Hint : It just might be that we don't like your principles.

Naw, it isn't that, its that we don't like you.

Interesting Bill - Thanks

I've sent an email to Green headquarters for a clarification of Party policy on the items you've mentioned.

Frank,
I think strategic voting on the basis of an openly negotiated set of policies among the Greens, Liberals and NDP would be a valid foundation for organized strategic voting to deny a Harper majority. But then I’m far less sanguine about conservative government than you appear to be – I have family who are still suffering from the effects of the Devine Government years in Saskatchewan.

Without such a negotiated agreement, you are probably right that there should be no deal.

My assumption, stated above, was on the basis that such a deal could be worked out - otherwise no dice. I'd expect that the Bay Street elements of the Liberal party would not go along with such a deal and would unite with their fellow travellers in the CPC.

oh come on Frank - didn't know you were CPC-ML

Ah yes, everybody but the NDP are "Right", uh-huh, fine. The reality is the right-left spectrum died a long time ago, and most people want other options than to have to think "either/or". The NDP have become like their old enemies the Social Credit, calling everybody who's not like them names and questioning all moralities and behaviours - except their own.

If you really think that 85% of the Canadian people are "right" (because they don't support the NDP), then you might as well give up now and face the fact that you're a fringe element in Canadian politics and likely to divide the vote away from parties who are more representative of a broader base than the NDP's hard-core labour-left.

Don't like that? That you're a fringe party now, and that you're dividing the vote. Well, it's the same put-down NDPers have been using on the Greens since they started up.....

So fine - if Green and Liberal voters are "right", why are they alleged to be a threat to NDP electoral successes?

85%

Actually I do believe Greens and Liberals are on the Right. They tell me so. I've never heard a Green or a Liberal say "we're to the Left of the NDP" or "we're as left-wing" as the NDP".

So they are both to the Right of the NDP. How much? Well, so much so that the Libs and Cons are indistinguishable.

As for the Greens, many of their most vocal people, like Cycling Commuter on here, are way over on the Right and consider the NDP to be Marxists, and say so.

So don't listen to me, listen to the Greens themselves and judge Liberal policies for yourself.

GWest : The "trickle-down" effect of the Paul Martin years was that they were a more right-wing government than what we have now. The Libs talk a good game but in the end, both labour and the poor are better off now than they were under Martin.

Quote:So fine - if Green and

They aren't. Sure, some NDPers will vote Liberal because they believe the used car salesmen pitch that they're more honest or something than the Conservatives. But for the most part there are no policies of the Greens or the Libs that would take away votes from the labour and social groups of the NDP.

The question on this forum was why the "loony" NDP don't throw in the towel and join 2 right-wing parties prevent a third right-wing party from running the country.

Long term goal

G, sounds like your idea of a coalition is really a strategy of splitting the Liberal party as a precursor to uniting a large part of it with the NDP under a new party banner on a permanent basis?

Fringe party

Don't like that? That you're a fringe party now, and that you're dividing the vote.

Yes, we are a fringe party. Although one that still gets around 20% on election day, has formed provincial governments and held to ransom minority federal governments. Which makes us one of the most powerful fringe parties in Canadian history.

If you're a left-winger then its obvious the existence of the NDP has been a powerful force for good. If you're not then they've been a pain in the ass that you wish would just go away.

As for splitting the vote, what vote? If you're a left-winger there is only one party in this country to vote for.

NDP and Labour

Why can't the NDP get into bed with May and Dion? Simple. Dion and May are anti-labour and anti-union. Case closed.

Paul Martin

I agree Frank. But that's why the current situation is such a unique opportunity and should be seized. The parallels with post WWI Britain are, at least to me, very apparent.

I think this is a perhaps-unique chance to actually peel the right-wing crust off the Liberal party and send it back where it belongs while appealing directly to the vast majority of 'liberal' voters to respond to an opportunity to unite progressive Canadians behind the things that true liberals, pragmatic leftists and green environmentalists CAN agree on.

The changes that have already been made in election financing provide an opportunity for political parties to begin to wean themselves from big donations and special interests. Taken together, and goaded by the disquiet that somewhere between 50 and 60 percent of the population feels about Harper and his agenda, I think it's time for Layton to make a decisive move.

Nothing back from the greens on their
policies yet btw.

By the way, I think events will not sustain your rosy feelings about the Harper Government and that, right wing though Paul Martin was (that is to say I agree with your conclusion about the Chretien years), I'd suggest you only need look to what's happening relative to First Nations matters to get a clue about where Harper is going to go. We're only seeing him in the green stick, as it were.

You might want to have a listen to what John Baird is saying about Kyoto this morning.

Vote for me

It may well be that some deals have been made. but wonders by whom and with whom. The one thing said here I truly disagree with is that somehow the NDP is going to benefit from anything. Perhaps it’s misjudged or perhaps it stems from some type of hopeful fantasy on the author's part. But truly I don’t see the EN DEE PEE moving anywhere but down the political fire pole. Jolly Jumper Jack has been so busy selling his soul to anyone who will place a bid that the Dippers are not taken seriously by most Canadians. There was a time not so long ago the Dips did attract a range of voters from those who voted out of commitment to those who voted to keep everyone else honest. But then comes Jack. Anything to keep his face in the news. Sell his soul to anyone willing to buy. and for those others he used to support, damn them at any cost. Perhaps Jack should hire Harpers new glorified hair dresser. These are indeed serious times for Canada. Our new Quasi Liberal PM Harper sits and waits for a majority to perhaps unleash his old style conservatism on our Nation. In BC Campbell is now a reborn moderate Aboriginal loving kind of guy. And through times in BC we have NDP leader Carole Who. We have perhaps heard from the DIPP leader in BC a handful of times. Can we say 3rd term for Gordo, it’s almost guaranteed. And if all this isn’t bad enough Belinda is not running again. We won’t even have her to gossip about. We are a mess. Stay tuned folks who know what the future holds.

YEP, that's about it Frank

Ironically interposed comments.

This is a special opportunity and the NDP needs to take advantage of it. The Liberals, as always, are desperate for power and the polls tell them they're not going to get it back - this presents a change for two parties - the greens (5-6%) and the left (20%) to get something concrete from the Liberals and to force the right-wingers to unite at the same time.

Of course this has to be done in the open and it must be done right away or it'll simply be classed as back-room bs by the media and will amount to nothing. Clearly Harper is reaching out to the ADQ in Quebec and the Liberals are dead in the water outside of Greater Montreal so time is of the essence.

The average liberal voter sees herself as progressive Frank – it’s the party hierarchy that’s right-wing and they exist in their positions of power by campaigning from the left and governing from the right. This is a chance to force their hand because the hierarchy is in turmoil since Dion’s win. For once, the hierarchy doesn’t matter because most people who vote Liberal see themselves as progressive…we need to take advantage of this if Layton has the beans to understand what an opportunity this is. This couldn’t have happened if Dion hadn’t won the leadership – but he did and now’s the time to act. Or wait another generation for the next chance to come along.

WW1 Britain

I knew that's the example you were looking at. You're hoping to split the libs and then get rid of them and a new, more left-wing, NDP-Lib party will become the natural governing party of Canada free of the right-wing elements within the Libs.

That's a pretty risky strategy because the initiative should come from the Libs. If it comes from the NDP it won't be a merger, it'll simply be the Libs swallowing the NDP whole and we'll be worse off as there will no longer be a friction point to the left of the Liberals.

The progressive Liberal

The problem is that all those "progressive" Liberals didn't utter a peep when their party was in power for 13 years running roughshod over the bottom 40% of this country in the name of building economic strength.

All we heard was the platitudes as the bottom tiers paid the freight for first their deficit fighting and then their ratcheting down government spending as a percentage of GDP to its lowest in 50 years.

And all we saw from Liberal "progressives", besides the obvious triumphalism, was how it was necessary pain even though those benefitting didn't experience any pain at all.

Which makes me wonder how progressive "progressive" Liberals actually are. Often I think they just see themselves as being more progressive than the folks in Alabama. They don't support slavery or go to church therefore they pat themselves on the back for being progressive while at the same time complaining about people on welfare, unions and universality.

Nothing ventured - nothing gained

The liberals have always had a great PR machine. I think the average Liberal voter sees herself as progressive and this is a chance for them to put up or shut up - the coincidence of this happening at a time when there is another galvanizing issue - the environment - can't be ignored either. They also want things like universally accessible and affordable child care along the lines of the Quebec model.

There is enough money in the EI fund right now to cover that, plus a real Earned Income Tax Credit program (like the one they have in Saskatchewan) and a complete revision of the tax codes.

The NDP should at least take the initiative back and make the proposal - and do it publically. Even if the Liberals and the Greens reject it such a move gets the ball back in play and Jack and Ed can stop sounding like Val Meredith scolds.

Think of the campaign you could mobilize on that basis - nothing like it since 'corporate welfare bums'.

I think this cuts the other way

And I think most of the risk is on the Liberals. Their lust for power might just induce them to cooperate but, and this is why it has to be done openly, the coalition must have clearly spelled out terms and a legislative program that all candidates (Liberal, NDP and Green) campaign on. It can't be a last minute thing - this is not a red book issue - the platform has to signed sealed and delivered before the writ is dropped.

It also has to involve an iron-clad commitment to electoral reform - which would be the big thing for the Greens, I'd say. In fact, I'd wager there is already some kind of agreement under the table between Dion and May on that point right now.

I don't see this as a merger at all - any more than the Labour/Liberal coalition was in Britain.

Just where does one tick "minority gov't" on the ballet?

Murray,
I don't see it as obvious that most progressives would prefer a Harper minority to a Dion majority, especially given the climate crisis we are facing.
Besides, voters do not choose a minority government, and given the real possibility of a Harper majority, it's the height of irresponsibility to continue the pretense that the NDP is a national party where it helps to elect conservatives.
That's good advice you gave May, to stand down in riding where the Green vote prevents an NDP from beating a Conservative.
You should give the same advice, for the very same reasons to the NDP where they do nothing but stop a Liberal from beating a Conservative.
And in exchange, try to get something on electoral reform, and some help in vulnerable NDP ridings.
Given where we are, Dion is a gift to the left in this country. In the past, one could argue that it was the Liberals who would not make electoral deals.
The Dion/May deal proves that it is Stephane Dion that is boldy trying to do something in this time of crisis, while others stick to the same old failed strategies.

NotaColony.ca

Exactly the point I've been making; but, I don't agree that Stephane Dion is bold, I do think he's desperate.

If he'd been bold there would be no connections between him and the Clark/Marissen forces of darkness that got him the leadership – or, best case, he’d have dumped those compromised links the moment he won the leadership. He hasn’t.

Questions For G West

What part of the NDP's platform do you consider to be more green?

When the NDP has had a chance to govern provincially (BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, and Ontario), do you think their policies were green?

Thanks a lot,

BH

Alberta

Just kidding.

Beacon Hill

I didn't make that statement. I'm not sure I agree with it, although I think you're correct about the fact that the NDP has made that claim from time to time but probably more frequently before Ms May took over the leadership.

On the ground I think the governments in both Manitoba and Saksatchewan have been as 'green' as possible under the circumstances. In Saskatchewan they have launched a new program, detailed here:
http://www.se.gov.sk.ca/

on April 12 of this year. Manitoba appears to be less advanced:
http://www.gov.mb.ca/est/energy/pdf/green_bldg_presentation.pdf

gives some details.

I'd add that Saskatchewan has some considerable way to go because a good deal of the province's electricity comes from coal generation; Manitoba is in less difficulty in this area because of Hydro generation - Manitoba Hydro has 14 hydroelectric generating stations on the Nelson, Winnipeg, Saskatchewan and Laurie rivers.

However, about two per cent of the province’s energy needs are produced from two thermal generating stations and four remote diesel generating stations.

Hope this helps - I figured you were kidding about Alberta.

Democracy?

I am green (its not easy!), but I do not support the free pass for party leaders system.

If all candidates have to work hard to get elected, so should the leaders!

Perhaps that is why peple vie for the leadership-to get a free pass to the House of Commons and a pension!

As for May, anyone who endorses past P.M. Mulroney as the best 'green' Prime Minister does not have my support - period. I may support a green canadiate but not likely as I still think they pursue economic growth in perpetuity just like the rest of the political parties (please correct me if I am wrong).

For me, a truely green party woyuld be advocating a 'steady state' economy (sure with minor ups and downs) and recognize that physical growth is limited, and the only room to continue to grow is personally, intellectually, socially, etc.

P.S.
I also do not want, appreciate, respect, and support any party telling me to vote strategically; my vote is just that-my vote!

Why isn't May running in the Sidney (sp?) tra sands riding anyway-would it not be a sure thing there?

Greenest PM

Freebar said, "As for May, anyone who endorses past P.M. Mulroney as the best 'green' Prime Minister does not have my support - period."
I believe Mulroney deserves the title as he probably spread as much BS as any prime minister we ever had. Based on this criteria, I'm sure some of you will think of another PM but he was up there.
And it's spelled Sydney. The tar sands are being buried. Many people are concerned that this poison will eventually leak out into the surroundings. Just wait until they start burying the tar sands junk.

Dion's looking ahead

Granted that Dion has pissed off the Central Nova Liberals, but look beyond that to the election results. May either wins (very unlikely) or loses (very likely).

If she wins, she owes it all to Dion. She doesn't own her victory, he does. She has already endorsed him, so now he's the chief Green in the country, and all Green voters are safe voting Liberal. If additionally the Liberals form the government, then Dion invites May into his government as Environment minister. The Green Party fades away.

If she loses, then she is a loser who couldn't win even when running unopposed by the Liberals. Dion wins his seat, of course, and whether or not the Liberals form the government, Dion's Green credentials shine brighter than ever, since May has endorsed him and he assisted her campaign by not opposing her. If you are a green voter, then, Dion wears May's green mantle and the Liberals are your only electable green choice. Dion is free to ditch May after a decent interval.

Whichever way I look at this, Dion and the Liberals come out winners, and the Green Party is the loser. The NDP is put in an interesting position: very squeezed, yes, with pressure to climb on board with the Liberals, but also more sharply defined, which may help the NDP.