The Vancouver Sun reports in

The Vancouver Sun reports in a Canadian Press
dispatch Thursday after a string of deaths in the mining exploration industry,
Canada's national prospectors association is telling its junior members that
if they do not drop "macho attitudes" and improve safety, they could face
criminal charges.

CanWest's Laura Bobak writes there were eight deaths related to exploration
and mining in Canada last year, according to a survey made public Wednesday by
the Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada.

In contrast, Australia's mine exploration business has been fatality-free for
about six years, said Bill Mercer, a geologist who released the survey at the
association's annual convention.

The Canadian victims included a geologist whose head was hit by a helicopter
blade, two drillers and a pilot killed in a helicopter crash, and a linecutter
mauled by a grizzly bear.

"You could have up to life in prison if you're deemed responsible," Mr. Mercer
warned.

The junior companies with the best safety records in Canada include FNX
Mining, Wolfden Resources and Imperial Metals, Mr. Mercer said.

FNX received an award at the prospectors' convention Monday for most
consecutive accident-free hours.

08-Mar-2007 14:40:45 GMT
Source CSN - Canada Stockwatch News

Quote "More regulation

Quote "More regulation simply means more burocracy."

It is simplistic comments like that which feed the corporate appetite for less regulation at the expense of our health and safety. They increase the profit margin at out expense. Just because you obviously need people to police the profit seekers so they don't compromise the public interest means the " increase in staff is unnecessary? Give us a break!

Spend any winter up North and you witnress first hand how the concern for profit compromises highway maintenance? Add the profit margin to any of our food, health and safety services and the result should be obvious to anyone.

Murray is dead on!

Neocon couldn't be more off the mark.

Quote "More regulation simply means more burocracy."

It is simplistic comments like that which feed the corporate appetite for less regulation at the expense of our health and safety. They increase the profit margin at out expense. Just because you obviously need people to police the profit seekers so they don't compromise the public interest means the " increase in staff is unnecessary? Give us a break!

Spend any winter up North and you witnress first hand how the concern for profit compromises highway maintenance? Add the profit margin to any of our food, health and safety services and the result should be obvious to anyone.

Murray is dead on!

Huh?

neocon,

You gotta re-read what you write before you hit "Post".

How about because Canada is a sovereign country? Why not ask the USA why they have drug-testing instead of just paying for ours?

No it isn't, the legal system itself has recently said only the rich can afford to launch civil suits.

spelling

bureaucracy:

1. government by many bureaus, administrators, and petty officials.
2. the body of officials and administrators, esp. of a government or government department.
3. excessive multiplication of, and concentration of power in, administrative bureaus or administrators.
4. administration characterized by excessive red tape and routine.

bureacracy

Sounds like the paper pushers of any large corporation.

Regulation

If we got rid of regulation it would be only fair to dismantle government altogether so that those who would "soil the commons" could be dealt with fairly.

But since the "please don't take away all my government protection" types would never go for it I think regulation is necessary. And being as the current level of regulation is failing to maintain proper standards the argument can be made we need more of it.

Just Imagine.

Just imagine the "please don't take away all my government protection" (read corporate) types screaming next time a union job action inconveniences them. Where ever would the bosses go to get the protection of their strike breakers. I think I will settle for some red tape as one person red tape is another's protection.

"3. excessive multiplication of, and concentration of power in, administrative bureaus or administrators." You see it is all a matter of perception and self interest. If the rules prevent me from paying less than the minimum wage, ripping off the public, putting workers at risk, polluting the environment, avoiding taxes, feeding my greedy impulses, I will blame the bureaucracy and red tape.

I have never met a single person who likes more "red tape" than is necessary. The neocons like to throw the phrase around as though they and they alone have a monopoly on good sense. Enforcing rules around health, safety and security is not red tape. Period!

Give me red tape....

...definitely. It has been the removing of this "red tape" that has allowed BC Govt. to get away with not complying with the Supreme Court of Canada in consulting with First Nations re;TFL 39.

It has been the removal of 'red tape' that allows these large forestry companies to take as much raw lumber as possible as fast as possible(before the title case is settled)from Haida Gwaii. When the current legislation has been written by the corps. harvesting the resource, you gotta question it. Corps act in the best interests of their shareholders' bank accounts and rarely, if ever in the best interests of the communities whose resources they are currently raping. Also my arguement for local governments and communities making these determinations rather than leaving it to bureaucrats who give not one sh*t for anyone outside there local region.

So I'm all for more 'red tape' especially on a local, municipal level preferrably without provincial or even regional interference and with as much community input as possible.

tangled up in blue..oh i mean red tape

As a former bureaucrat i've been tangled up in a lot of red tape. At it's best the so called red tape ensures accountability, transparency and good value for tax payers in the form of needed services and programs. At it's worst it is obtuse and sometimes downright dishonest.

Here is a "bad" example...right now in South Delta we are fighting to save the marine environment around Roberts Bank and trying to stop the port expansion. The government's own report stated the environmental destruction that will happen with the port expansion. Was it followed?... no. The government employees who did the study are no longer involved and the government is going ahead-unless we stop them-with the expansion plans.

A "good" example. Back when i was working for government i was ordered to extend funding to an organization who could not deliver. The mananger was trying to aviod a "situation" with a special interest group. The money involved was approx. $300,000. I stood up to the manager and told him i wouldn't do it, he backed down. The tax payer were saved $300,000. Now what was my reward?...my job was eliminated...that wasn't so good.

Anyways..there has been a lot of bashing of red tape and government employees and i have to say, after 25 yrs with gov't., that it is deserved a lot of the time. But we need to have to have regulation and policies and procedures when it comes to planning,spending,and accountability of our money.

Unfortunately the government bureaucracy is toxic, filled with bad managers and mediocrity is rewarded.

Regulations are to protect

Regulations are to protect the general population from the socio/psychopaths in our midst. The elite constantly and diligently scheme to overcome any power the people enjoy. "Deregulation" is simply to remove any last impediments to their rule and they have all the rationales and arguments at the ready, not just from the thinktanks they fund but also from those of us that they have totally indoctrinated (see above).

Sure, we live our lives as debtslaves, financing the elite via the banking system, but as more of us wake up... the repression will intensify. Meanwhile, "red tape" helps keep them at bay.

Red Green's magic tape

Though I avoid the stuff myself (Red Tape) as best I can I do not see any working alternative to regulation even in my small world. Official Community Plans, Regional Boards and Town Council/Municipalities at least must publish sets of approved rules and can be brought to task if these are violated on their watch.

The alternatives?

1)The Meanest Grunt gets everything:
Been there and still have the tee shirt.

The mean grunts just never seem to finalize who the meanest is so the lowly often wander away from whoever sets up the roadblock naked (assuming they get to walk away at all)

2)Everyone just looks after each other in a combined Libritarian/Utopian sort of paradise

Dream on

3)Corporate business self regulation

I'm wearing the tee shirt right now - its cheap and grey and starting to smell

welcome back

The absence of your wit and wisdom has been sorely felt 'round here.

How'd you enjoy Mexico?

Just fine, thanks

Made me wonder just what future generations will notice a milenia from now around these parts: maybe the "road" but all briges will be gone; Maybe the airports if they are above tide. The Mayans moved a lot more stone and rubble into the pyramids and terraces than we manage (except for highways) but they had fewer machines and more time methinks

Bill me, please

Good old Murray.

Yeah Murray, I sure do pine for the good old days. I yearn for those times when telephone calls were expensive and long distance was an event. Please Murray, try and re-regulate the 'phone company I'm so fed-up with treating my telephone with such brazen contempt. I even find myself calling people overseas without thinking about the cost. We even just chat, instead of keeping it brief and to the point. Such a disregard for valuable trunk traffic lines.

I pine for the good old days

I pine for the good old days too. When homelessness was unknown and foodbanks were unthinkable, when just one parent had to work and going to the corner store for a popsicle was no problem. Get realistic, man. Look around you. Haven't you noticed?

Refuting Murray's point by cherrypicking an example is specious. The spp and tilma are coming down and it's not a pretty sight. You watch.

Red Tape:also comes from Trees?

Our Local Gov't recently passed a Bylaw that effectively expropriates a portion over e-v-e-r-y-o-n-e-s' Private Property .

What is it called?

A Tree ByLaw.

Besides the property owner maintaining existing trees, (or all the red tape required to remove one), any Lot which is re-developed beyond the current zoning must now have a Professional Arborist's report.

After perusing some recent development applications, this is the classic example of RED TAPE. If one reviews a Staff Report, and even for a rather minor redevelopment, the arborists report can be approx 50 - 60 % of the E-N-T-I-R-E Staff report. Each tree is individually assessed ie a dead tree must be professioanlly identified as a dead tree etc etc. Aparently each trees removal must be justified.

This Tree ByLaw was give a "knee-jerk polit-bureau caesarian birth" via an incident or two which got major media coverage. Of course, the chain saws were revved up big time prior to its implimentation , people used their windows of opportunity to knock down trees.

I am a often surprised why these types of ByLaws aren't challenged in Court, because it is a blatant infringement of Private Property Rights. What will stop them from not regulating my front lawn, or forcing one to have a garden of say 179.37 sq.ft. Effectively the tree has been expropriated for the public good...ie some neghbours have grow attached to the tree being in the "collective" neighbourhood.

Of course, if that same tree on a neighbouring property comes crashing down into THEIR houses, one can expect the Lawsuits flying, correct ?

Maybe things like the Tree Bylaw are meant to soften us up for future "rights" grabs. In my view the status quo was fine, trees come and go at a steady pace,much like people, not really a huge epidemic.

However, I think its more a sign of a Red Tape epidemic where the average citizen is caught in the vise -like grip of both knee-jerk politicians and the petty job- justifying bureaucrats, and no useful purpose is really served.

The bureacracies grow, and even worse, often overlap. Soft, Subtle but ultimately Suffocating.

Look around you.

Deregulation means more choice, more competition and usually lower prices. The Canadian marketing boards should be next. The ridiculous inflated prices that working families and the poor have to pay for milk and cheese must end. Some cheese has a 100% import duty! The OPEC-like cartel of eastern Canada keeps this up to fatten the big-cat farmers at the expense of the rest of us.

Stats Can just announced the lowest unemployment numbers ever for British Columbia, Cynic. The tax policies of the Campbell government are working. Investments are flowing in and everybody's working, just look around you. TILMA will increase the market for BC companies and professionals, next month should be a great celebration.

You realize

of course that getting rid of the Marketing Boards and tariffs would really only be of benefit to "big-cat" farmers while making it harder for smaller operations?

I thought so.

realisticman

have a look at this before you cheer too loudly - low unemployment numbers don't mean much in a population where 80% of families live on a treadmill that keeps speeding up.

http://policyalternatives.ca/documents/National_Office_Pubs/2007/The_Rich_and_the_Rest_of_Us.pdf

trees

If the gov't can control the resources below the ground (mineral rights) one could argue they can do the same with that which is above it.

I find it hard to get bent out of shape because our council wants to be sure thatliving things that take can take decades to properly replace aren't destroyed without consideration.

Then again I like clean air.

Tax policies smax policies

The only thing unprecedented is Campbell being given huge amounts of federal dollars at a time when interest rates are low and commodity prices high.

As for deregulation, have you ever studied policies imposed by the IMF? They love deregulation too. Their record is so bad their own people write papers about it after they leave the organization. Apparently 5 young IMF suits sunning by the swimming pool in a 5 star hotel in Rio for a week aren't the best people to hand your economy over to. Who'd a thunk it?

Quote:Then again I like

See Stump, that's where you fall out of step with the great unwashed of the Right. I think it was the boys at the Fraser Institute that tell us clean air should be a commodity like clean water and politicians.

Stump:

Can thou not see-est thine sheer I-R-O-N-Y in your O-W-N name..ie "STUMP", ie "dead tree" , "root- ball RIP" ?

You like clean air?

You NEED clean air.

Maybe change TYEE name to "Old Growth", "Sapling"..."seedling" you know,something less morbid . Your PR dept. can hopefully embellish your now slightly- tarnished image.

N/C

What time is it?

It's about time for CLUB-sky to appear !

Drum Roll....

re: unemployment rates...

... those unemployment rates do NOT take into account those who have exhausted their EI and still cannot find work, or the homeless, or those struggling families with only one parent working and a parent who has also exhausted their EI and because of the cutbacks to child care must stay home while the other parent goes to work. Of course it is rosy for those higher up but it is the lower income masses who bear the burden of the rich.

As far as I am concerned corporations and big business don't have nearly enough red tape to wade through.

Out To Lunch!

The Policy Alternatives cabal want to punish success by taking away any earned income they deem 'too much'. At least they're honest when it comes to their official policy which reads that they want to expand the public sector, stifle growth and discourage investments through increased taxation. Their extreme socialist ideology is transparent but they ignore the constant shifting of manufacturing facilities worldwide. They seem naively Maoist in their ideas. Who funds them? Basically, they're trying to stop the wind by blowing hot air against it.

New game show

IDEA: Put Lefties in a house when the strong wind is blowing.

Make sure the house is near a grove of tall trees that the enviros wanted to save and was saved due to their efforts.

Put all outside proceedings on a 60 inch Plasma Screen TV so the Leftie contestants can view it.

Show the ever increasing wind speed , approaching 100km/h and the trees flexing almost horizontal to the ground.

Show old video of trees falling and hitting houses or the aftermath when the falling trees cut through a house like a hot knife through hot butter.

Show how easily one can get impaled by broken branches and widow makers etc..

Last Leftie ( NOTE: not the ones chained to the same trees )which doesn't sh!t and take off like a scared rabbit WINS ) !!!

Howie Mandel..if STUMP can't host it, will you?

The other side of that coin

Realisticman says

"Deregulation means more choice, more competition and usually lower prices. The Canadian marketing boards should be next. The ridiculous inflated prices that working families and the poor have to pay for milk and cheese must end"

And all of that comes from working families getting paid less and working longer hours in unsafe conditions. Where is the benefit? Back when you paid more for phone calls, gas was 40 cents a gallon and people were better off making 20,000 a year than they are now making 70,000. Even Stats can can tell you that the poor are getting poorer and the rich richer and smaller as a percentage.

Tax policies have not done a damn thing for the economy. Low commodity prices and massive spending on the 2010 olympics in the south have helped. Can some people not read more than the Liberal propaganda. Wait till the bubble bursts and it will. Then watch Campbell and the rest of the hacks make excuses then. Oh, then it will be the fault of the unions once again.

Naive

Manufacturers may move realisticman, but markets don't. Let the manufacturer go anywhere he wants. But he loses his market access the moment he steps offshore. If we really do need what he's selling we'll call him.

I know its not a convoluted enough thought for those on the Right, they'd prefer a 5000 page document that decides on page 4,999 that we can't do anything about the world.

pmutS

Actually, Stump, it's the other way around. Check the BC case of the Van Herks who were forced to stop production at their small dairy because of the quota system by the Board.

Check the government stats and you can see that Ottawa controls the production. For example, July 2006, percentage of national production; Quebec percentage 46.5, Ontario percentage 31.2, BC percentage 5.5.

It's a cartel.

Cartels?

And what percentage of the cable tv market is controlled by Shaw and Rogers?

Deregulation means the bulldozing of the little guy

What a Disaster! Oh My! The End is Nigh!

http://www.mediacastermagazine.com March 1, 2007
BC's growing technology industry will offer thousands of new jobs in the upcoming year, but will have a hard time filling them if serious skill shortages are not addressed, a new report from the British Columbia Technology Industry Association (BCTIA) says.

CBC, March 9, 200
British Columbia and New Brunswick hit their lowest-ever recorded unemployment rates in February, at four per cent rate in B.C. and 6.9 per cent in New Brunswick.

Stats Can, March 9, 2007
On a year-to-year basis across the country, there were 392,000 more people working last month than in February 2006, a 2.4 per cent increase.

Employment among adult men and women was little changed last month, but the number of people aged 15 to 24 with jobs jumped by 21,000.

The youth unemployment rate was 11 per cent, the lowest it has been since 1990.

Government

But again, anytime you guys on the Right want to get rid of government altogether and not just cherry pick this and that, call me.

I would give the continuing increase in wealth disparity about 5 minutes.

And...

And why is that? Gee, could it be that people who got the training realized it wasn't worth it and people started avoiding high tech because it meant long hours, bad quality of life and pay that was no better than other jobs etc? Do you ever read the stories behind these "shortages"?

New Brunswick is booming?? That's great that your Campbell economic policies you attribute the success in BC to has spilled over all the way to New Brunswick. Perhaps my view that it had nothing to do with Campbell is closer to the truth?

And my prediction is that if the US economy doesn't tank, interest rates don't rise and people still want to buy our resources that next February will be even better. Bizarre isn't it?

Frank

Frank, are you actually suggesting that the cable tv industry in Canada is deregulated? Well it ain't. Actually, Frank, it's the other way around.

In the dairy case I mentioned, regulation meant the bulldozing of the little guy too.

This time we're on board

Frank, the difference is that last time there was strong growth in Eastern Canada BC didn't share it. That, of course, was during the dark reign of your business and jobs killing machine, the NDP.

BC Stats

Go dig up those stats realisticman because I've seen 'em and they don't reflect what you're putting forward.

The growth rates for BC during the NDP era exceeded those of the Socred era before it, even counting the Asian crisis of '97-'98.

As for tv, telecommunication was YOUR example. If you're going to claim that the CRTC means regulation while also claiming there is no regulation of phone service whatsoever you're on thin ice.

Quote:Frank, the difference

No, the difference is that you claimed Campbell's TAXATION policies are why BC is doing well. Your own example of a booming New Brunswick calls that into serious question.

Frank numero Uno

Who said we wanted to get rid of Gov't ?

Gov't serves a very useful purpose( at least in theory )

However, , the odd time when it strays from its original objectives and mandates(ie more and more)... ie to SERVE the PUBLIC as PUBLIC SERVANTS , .... CIVIL SERVICE,... ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES et al ..an amazing thing happens.

One side of the political spectrum (who shall go UNnamed) gets "right"fully pissed off...and YET the other side of the spectrum full of LEFTIES(redundant) gets into a lathered up "Tax and spend" feeding frenzy (redundant)and cheers Gov't on(redundant) and can't get enough of this red tape(redundant)..it's the equivalent of LEFTIE Viagra.

That's all...check the literature.
It's epidemic.

Original purpose

The Rightees are always whining that gov't is evil and we need to shrink it and drown it in the bathtub maestro. I'm just saying, sure.

And where are these original objectives written? I'd like to read them because I think government is simply whatever we say it is.

As for tax and spend, nobody does it better than the Right. Its just they like to spend their extra bucks on coercion.

BC Stats

NDP bad for business? Business bankruptcies in BC according to BC Stats

Socred era
1986 1,445
1987 1,268
1988 1,169
1989 1,040
1990 1,150
1991 1,288

NDP
1992 1,051
1993 862
1994 822
1995 972
1996 946
1997 898
1998 1,031
1999 1,077
2000 980

Liberals
2001 1,101
2002 1,107
2003 1,002

Notice how business bankruptcies were generally lower under the NDP than under the Libs and Socreds except for in the wake of the Asian crises and notice how the business bankruptcy rate had fallen again in 2000 while the NDP was still in office but rose under Campbell's Libs.

The bankruptcy stats on BC Stats stop at 2003

Please Frank

It was YOU that mentioned the cable companies and suggested that deregulation has crushed the little guys!

...Like Air Canada, companies such as Rogers and Bell got to be the nimble, beloved institutions they are today thanks to tight government control of their operations, expansions, prices -- and competition. They were closely regulated so that the existing companies would stay viable, and the best way to do that was by keeping competition out. Great for them, lousy in the long run for the poor saps who pay the bills.

As for the low unemployment rates in New Brunswick, well, I repeat, the last time they had a boom BC missed out under an NDP government. As the Stats Canada figures show, under the present Campbell government the job figures are better than they EVER have been. Ever is long time Frank. Get it?

Wrong again

Certainly you can remember your own post from yesterday?

So you see I was right, YOU brought up telecommunications. Get it?

Who's your provider?

And what percentage of the cable tv market is controlled by Shaw and Rogers?

Deregulation means the bulldozing of the little guy

Let's keep it simple Frank.
The telephone services in Canada have been partially deregulated. Where we once had only one regulated company we could use for local and long-distance calls (and our telephone equipment), we now have a choice between a few wireless cell carriers and one local line-carrier and many line-long-distance carriers and we may now use line equipment we have purchased from any retailer. This has led to far lower prices for both our equipment and our calls, particularly long-distance calls.

The cable-tv business is still regulated in Canada. No, as Frank has implied, the cable tv business been not been deregulated and caused a "bulldozing" of the "liitle guy", because in Canada there are not, as yet any 'little guys' in the cable business.

How's that Frank?

BC GDP under the NDP

In fact, except for the year 1998, immediately following the Asian crises, I can't find when New Brunswick was doing well and BC wasn't.

Yet I can find the reverse, such as 1993, when looking at other years.

The little guy

Shaw and Rogers have divided up Canada. There is no competition. Any little guy wanting in has far less of a chance than a guy who wants into the milk business. (Your other example)

In the milk business he can simply wake up one morning and go buy a farm and quota, as my uncle did.

Rogers Shaw Cogeco & Videotron

Exactly my point. Wouldn't you like it deregulated so the little guy can get in????

How?

How would that work realisticman? How could a little guy possibly get a slice of that industry regulated or not?

Milk

On milk its easy, like I said, you have a to buy quota but that's a cost of doing business. You do that, you're in and you're making money.

Its the price to us I assume you're worried about not the entry into that industry?

There are some things one big well regulated company does better than one big unregulated company running roughshod over small competitors.

And realisticman

That report, the one you shrugged off without reading; I've read it. And so did some folks at the G&M who verified its veracity.
Since we're posting links, once you've read the actual report - have a look at this:
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:_B3_XvvWgV8J:www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070301.wpolicy0301/BNStory/National/+Canada%27s+income+gap+growing,+study+says&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=ca

Whiich is a link to Google cache that should get you in the door without a subscription.

Then come back and we'll talk.

Frank #1

Frank:

Re Small non- cartel telecom companies

"Frank the Cable Guy Ltd"....

Sounds like a small company we should all sign up for.

PS Can you edit out clubofrome - sky and sub in more Pro- Wrestling and CNN ?

Neocon

Because drug testing in the US is politically driven...........?

Read it and I listened to three commentators

I read, before, the PDF you linked to and I read the Globe piece on it. I'm not alone in my conclusions. Did you read John Ibbitson's piece?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070302.wxibbitson02/BNStory/National/home

Did you also read Andrew Coyne's useful comment on March 3rd. He read in between the lines and bought out some insightful comments.

http://andrewcoyne.com/columns/2007/03/spinning-income-inequality.php

Frank the Cable Guy

In the USA there are many small cable operators.

I'm not sure I understand your point, Frank, before you said that it was just the big guys crushing the small guys. Now you seem to be saying big is good sometimes. If you really want to be a cable guy you will want, what I think you were saying, deregulation. You get a license to service an area, set up a head-end, maintain the physical cable structure and you're on the air.

It's like having a cow. The head-end is the cow, you plug in your subscribers and then 'milk' it.

Big is good

I do say big is good sometimes. I also say competition is good sometimes. I believe that public ownership is the way to go in some areas. In other words, I am not as ideological as you are, at least as reflected in the position you took in your initial attack on this article. I look at what works. You have claimed there is only one path to nirvana and that is deregulation. If you feel that deregulation is not the answer to every problem you haven't mentioned it.

Shaw and Rogers do not compete, they divided up the Canadian pie so they would have to compete with each other. Rogers is no longer in the Lower Mainland, they simply traded it to Shaw for a monopoly elsewhere.

You also attacked the Canadian milk system and said it too needed deregulation.

Is that your view? That deregulation in everything would be sunshine and roses?

Andrew Coyne

Notice how Coyne conveniently moves the goalposts in order to dismiss income disparity? He claims its not a problem because the poor don't want to be rich, they want to be middle class, so its only that comparison that's important.

And he claims household income is not a a good measuring stick because households are poorer simply because there's more one parent families. He doesn't give any stats to back up that assertion, he simply makes it. Well, is that true? Or, is it counter-balanced by the fact that there were more single income families 30 years ago with 2 parents in the home? He doesn't mention that.

Also, ever notice how Andrew Coyne contradicts himself from one article to the next?

From his article on income disparity he writes :

So he obviously has no problem with what other people make, right? Wrong. Because when he talks about the environment suddenly its his primary concern :

Big is Good, the sequel

I said

I should of course have added a "not" right after "so they would "

you're not surely going to quote John ibbitson

This is the same guy who suggested that immigration was the solution for the economic problems of the Maritimes. Give me strength.

When you can actually deal with the figures and their implications, we'll talk.

As to Andrew Coyne, you must be joking?

Frank - BC Stats

Quite obviously Frankm, your bankruptcy stats show that more bankruptcies mean more is happening. Gods forbid that we have NO bankruptcies at all, and that every business is successful. That would mean we're not doing any business at all................

Code 12

Frank
I don`t mean to interrupt here but this just came in...you are to move to a code 12
Plan 9 is still in effect .

I`m outta here for the weekend..heading to the Island..gotta fast ferry to catch

hope you get to Pan
over and out,
bob

RickW

Thanks Rick, I assume you're being tongue-in-cheek since we all know economic activity didn't increase during Bennett's made-in-BC recession where there was negative GDP growth nor were the best days of the NDP the aftermath of the Asian crisis :-)

Tinfoil hat

Got it bob, thanks for keeping me in the loop :-)

Hey, Frank

You might want to pick up today's National Post. There's an article on regulations in Canada that tells us that poor and working families pay much more for many things due to regulated industries in Canada.

Fer example; import duties on regulated items such as, milk, 241%, butter, 299%, cheese, 245%, eggs, 238%.

Another regulated industry is telecommunications. Average monthly use cost for cell-phone service in Canada, $48, Denmark $9.

Bank fees, air transportation, etc. Over and again it's the poorer in society in Canada that have to pay.

How does one describe the politics of those who wish these constant high prices on the less fortunate in our society? This is gouging of our poorest and this is what global uncaring corporations are said to do. How can we support this?

As for TILMA. At last the hay truck bringing feed to farmers in BC from Alberta won't have the choice of either, unloading and then reloading the hay at the Alberta/BC border; or, taking the load through Montana, across to Idaho and Washington, then back into Canada and BC. They'll be able to come straight across the border. The former is regulated, Frank, the latter unregulated under TILMA. Which do you prefer? Which system is better for the lowly consumer?

Cell phones

Now that's an interesting subject.

Cell phones are now a necessity of life?

As for the cost of food in North America. I think you need to look at some intenational comparisons of how much we pay here compared to civilized countries like France. Hitching our wagon to the high-fat high sugar diet of the Americans seems to be doing us an awful lot of good doesn't it.

It's not the cost of food that makes people poor in this country realisticman and you know it.

Oh, and Realisticman

Have a little look at the Olympic story. Lynn appears to have done a little research of her own. Nice stuff she's found too.

I wonder if our Premier will take some notice.

Money and lower prices through de-regulation

Come on Garth. Surely you know that the mobile phone is taking over and that there are now more mobiles than land-lines in the world. The cell-phone is becoming THE necessity for all families.

The next time I see a smidgen of complaint about the cost of food for poorer and working families I'm going to remember what you wrote. Milk, eggs, butter and cheese are better kept expensive; it's better for us. Keeps us trim. And, they shouldn't complain about the cost of food, as you say, that's not what makes them poor. By the way, you're right.

Perhaps, if we remain civil, one day we can share a few oysters, break some fresh baguette and wash it down with an unpretentious chablis at Rodney's.

I disagree

I'd never have one. The other day some idiot who was trying to talk on one and drive while I was fully within a cross walk and every other car on the street was at a dead halt almost ran me down.

The only reason cell phones are so popular in Europe and elsewhere is because land lines are so expensive. The next time one of them errupts in the theatre some guy is goint to eat one though.

I never eat oysters, almost never drink wine and I make my own 'Baguette'. When a few more of us can find some leisure instead of running on the stupid treadmill that life here in North America has become I'll join you for a glass of Chateau Thames Embankment plonk.

And, when you have a moment, check the price of a delightful Pied à Terre' in East Vancouver to get an idea of why folks are having trouble making ends meet.

See 'ya.

Plonk!

I say, a friend of mine used to work at a wine trading house ensconsed in a cellar along the Embankment, mostly claret and some port, you know.

As for the oysters, they have been the cheap plentiful staple of good hard-working folk for a long time and this is ground zero for some whoppers.

Quote:Fer example; import

Another regulated industry is telecommunications. Average monthly use cost for cell-phone service in Canada, $48, Denmark $9.

Bank fees, air transportation, etc. Over and again it's the poorer in society in Canada that have to pay.

All of these examples are the private sector at work. Are you calling for public ownership of everything?

Or should the private sector banks banks have no regulation and be able to do whatever they like? Perhaps we should get rid of regulating and testing of the dairy industry? I'm sure that would work out well.

Say, what?

Are you thinking that the import duties are the work of private companies, Frank?

These are examples where government regulates industry and causes higher prices to consumers. Is that not clear?

As for the totally regulated dairy industry. If your uncle is efficient in his production the regulated quota system does not allow him to grow his business. There is no incentive to improve his lot. Initiative and hard work cannot be rewarded with growth or expansion. He's constrained. That's one reason Canada has less productivity than many other places.

Testing of the dairy industry is moot. The US dairy industry is unregulated but tested.

Quote:Are you thinking that

Import duties on bank fees? On milk? On what?

And so you want to get rid of all regulation and let the chips fall where thay may.

Perhaps we could save a bundle by getting rid of customs altogether and just having open borders?

He can't just buy more quota? Why not?

So you're in favour of paying for testing then? That's something at least.

Market decide?

If regulation is good when it comes to testing that means you're not fully in favour of deregulation. Which is fine by me.

Obviously you're only in favour of deregulating something specific. I assume because it may lead to a lower price? So what exact regulations should be thrown out? And how much will it save? And will the savings be passed on to the consumer? Since most economists would say that the price is what people are willing to pay, not what the cost to produce is.

Costs

These are the import duties collected by the Government of Canada for these items if they are imported into our country; milk, 241%, butter, 299%, cheese, 245%, eggs, 238%.

This is to protect the Canadian producers of these items.

Were the Government of Canada to lower or drop these import duties then the Canadian producers of these products would not be able to sell their products to the Canadian people at the present high prices because the imported products, without the huge duties, would be far cheaper than the present Canadian ones are.

The above mentioned staples would be cheaper in the shops.

Banks in Canada have somewhat of a protected market because the Government of Canada does not allow foreign banks to just come in and set up shop. Again, the market of Canadian consumers is a protected one for the Canadian banks. It is a regulated industry. Regulated to protect Canadian banks from foreign banks.

We could save a bundle with open borders and no customs, as you say, and this is gradually being phased in. Years ago Canadian exports were favoured imports into the British Commonwealth countries with low, or no, duties. US companies built factories in Canada to sell product into the British Commonwealth countries. NAFTA is doing the same thing gradually with phasing out of duties, on both sides of the border.

Quote:These are the import

This is to protect the Canadian producers of these items.

That's a totally different topic. Which has nothing to do with regulations on banks or whatever.

Instead you are now a proponent of wiping out the Canadian farmer by flooding our market with cheap imports.

So to sum up, there are no regulations that would save us money, its simply a demand for foreign competition in our domestic markets.

Frank:

Don't type so damn small..

These $1.99 glasses for the optically challenged and built offshore in a deregulated environment aren't that good.

When can we book " Frank The Cable Guy Ltd." for a bootleg install ? How much will the Total bill be including PST + GST ?

PS Re: Foods mentionend earlier: I'm going to boycott Kraft Foods soon, they are connected to the New England Pats...a team I hate more than the T.O. Leafs.

small typing

Hey, I have as much trouble reading that small type as anyone else. Its not me, its whenever I quote, the text immediately following is small.

As for my new company, Frank the Cable Guy, I'm hoping you're going to sign up maestro! How about a channel running nothing but South Park and Dennis Miller 24/7? Will that lure you in? I'm more of an Inspector Clouseau fan myself but each to his own.

And you're lying, its impossible to hate a team more than the Leafs.

Borders

I just wanna go back to the tangent of no borders. I would only be in favour of such a thing if nations ceased to exist and we already had a single world government in place. Otherwise, its a bad idea.

Frank:Re small print..

Well to address this, subCONtract G WEST's other persona

you know,

drum roll......HARALD KANN !!!

BIG TYPE.... NO EXTRA CHARGE !!!!.

I guess G WEST followed the Labour Practices Code and gave one of his personas 2 weeks vacation...though I here rumblings they want to organize a union. I'm sure old G WEST will keep us a breast, might be interesting if old G WEST' ster has to call in scabs so the G. WEST TYEE posts keep a' coming like sh!t through a goose.

Actually, re: Dennis Miller et al... see great minds think alike. I was actually thinking about South Park...and wondering which TYEE posters do the potty - mouth voice overs.

I think Club-sky (the BORAT of the Tyee), does a few, but I wish he would do Kenny.....ie paid for saying nothing....I mean...ie " no sound " as opposed to the usual " 110 % content free ".

Harold Kann?

Harold Kann is not G West.

Frank: re: Harald Kann

How do you know for sure...?

How about a list of who G West is NOT.

And your point is?

Maestro:

I know you think you're funny. Not the only thing you're wrong about.

Did you have an intelligent come-back to my point that local gov't approval to kill something hard to replace might be a good thing?

Cdn Game Shows

Btw, you'd never make it on the old game show Definition. I can think of three definitions for 'stump' off the top my head. Trust you to pick the one that describes something lifeless. Try harder.

Stump:

Isn't " Stump " also colloquial for " Just doesn't get it ? " ...ie STUMP(noun) was " stumped " ( verb).

If we also go into metaphors etc. ...the stump plus the living canopy above the stump ( main stem, branches and leaves) above it creates a vibrant living dynamic entity. However the Stump by itself is simply a decapitated tree.

However, there is an older fellow on a Gulf Island ...( I actually saw this on a documentary) who actually grafts branches onto stumps and a new tree entity is born with the combined " fresh stump and the new graft" . There is actually a window of opportunity to do this after the tree is cut down , so why don't Forestry companies employ this tree /forest regeneration method after logging versus traditional tree planting ..is it RED TAPE/ REGULATION ?

Thanks Stump, for inspiring an expansion of this TYEE "RED TAPE" topic.

Stump;

Canadian game shows are pretty lame.

The U.S provides the creme -de- la -creme of game shows (except for that Japanese Obstacle course Game Show on SPIKE TV .....whereby they do English voice- overs for the play - by - play commentary as the contestants try to successfully overcome various different obstacles).

" DEFINITION " was a bit over-ripe and corny Canadian game show . However, the Theme music was pretty good though, even moreso when Mike Myers used it for his Austin Powers movies' theme .

Stump: Re "your point "

Don't get me wrong.
I love trees and natures' other creations.

However, in an urban setting, at times a conflict occurs that it is either (i)TREES or (ii) PEOPLE's RIGHTS.... which include the safety concerns on top of what is actually Private Property and what is otherwise Public Property.

Those issues need to be seriously delved into and most certainly beyond the ethereal knee-jerk tree -hugging that many subscribe to. Trees, like all living things "DIE" . A tree will ultimately FALL down one way or the other, whether it is dead or alive at the time .

We have established sub -surface right re: Mining Claims...correct?

What about surface -rights..don't trees apply as surface property? It is my understanding that if one owns acreage of forested land, YOU own them...and you can cut them down . That very FACT should trump any Local Bylaws, whether it is a rural OR an urban setting .

The Tree ByLaw is effectively interpreted as the owner has little or no say on the tree on their very own deeded property...gee what's next..your childrens swing set is now Public Property ? ...or your driveway is now used for an off -street Public Parkade? or....

The owner of the land that the tree is on has basically lost many of their legal rights yet also kept all of the liability, correct?

Most people are reponsible, and will keep the trees on their property till they feel the time has come for the ultimately inevitable removal of the tree. These tree bylaws just cater to fear etc. perceptions by the quasi-NIMBY factions, who are very often the first to impose things on their neighbours, but the last to want their own rights usurped.

I've seen many worthy attempts to save trees in various development situations, but many of them fail...and the tree dies, for various reasons.

As I said...where is the line drawn on what is Private Property.... and more importantly what IS next -in -line to no longer be 100% Private Property within the Private Owners 100 % control.

TO COMPENSATE: How about 100% Property Tax Free status???.ie maybe some clever lawyer could argue that if the TREE BYLAW is imposed, the previously Private Property is not really Privately- owned and controlled any more..its NOW quasi- PUBLIC Property for all legal intents and purposes( ie for the broader collective communal /community interests), and thus if it is proven to be consistent with Public Property , thus it is NOT required to pay ANY Property Taxes.

How about that one?

Poor comparison

A tree isn't a swing set. One can be replaced with a trip to Home Depot. The other can't... without decades to grow as well.

On the other hand, if a neighbour's kid breaks their neck on your swing set, you'd better hope it was in good working order or the lawsuit might wipe you out financially. So, there's already a smattering of legal and public interest at work in your backyard.

People ARE allowed to cut down trees. They just have to meet the criteria. That criteria applies to all. It's not an uneven playing field.

And, I know this will send shudders down your spine, but frankly, I see trees as a quasi-public resource, no matter where they were planted. I'm of the opinion that a fully-grown tree, probably planted before the current owners took possession does in fact belong in part to the community. Hardly rampant-Redness, just a cautious approach to a valuable resource. Perhaps the fairest method might be to allow whoever planted the tree to have a say (if they're alive)? I kid, but only a bit.

The fact remains. It's possible to cut down dangerous trees on your property. To suggest otherwise is a red herring. Also, one can purchase property without trees on it if one doesn't want to go through the process.

Another fact is that there are people who do so (fell trees) without permission... to trees in no danger of dying just yet for purely selfish reasons (Jacqui Cohen's little escapade springs to mind).

Why does the red tape get tighter and tighter? One might blame the folk who think the rules don't apply to them.

Stump:

As per usual...certain facets of society feel everything needs to be regulated.

No trust in individual rights and individual discretion.

Sorry Stump, but when LAWS have to be created, usually over previously described NIMBY hypocrites, these BYLAWS usually have significant cost or penalty- driven teeth attached , or else why have them ?

Oh sure you can cut the TREES down...but the Bylaws often set onerous benchmarks so as to truly discourage exercising these now reduced property rights. These can also include major sets of documents needed to be filled out before one cuts the tree down.

RED TAPE etc. often makes one feel "F" it.

Sorry but anything within the perimeter of the (4) galvanized steel pegs that legally determine your property lines is YOUR own property, now matter what it is.

That's a basic principle not to be stickhandled around. As per usual, people may now be less predisposed to keep existing trees or initiate any new trees.

Same liability holds..."swing set" example is with individual permission...versus imposed by Gov't .

Not to worry, the time will come when a situation arises with a court case and a precedent set. You know, don't you Stump, that Local Gov'ts can be the sloppiest with Bylaws and often lose in court. This is probably due to the far more locally based ass -kissing that is required to appease local grassroots constituents .

PS I think Bike Lanes should have Tolls for cost recovery , I don't see why they have to have massive subsidies. That is Public Property to the benefit of a very few.

PS Any comments on the PROPERTY TAX issue? The implication would be the PROPERTY TAX Burden would be shifted to other parties. Then it could get very interesting for Tree Fans. Most Lefties I know turn tail when it hits them in the wallet, usually cheap bastards anyway, always " someone ELSE should pay " .

bike tolls

Great idea. Let's bill bikers for their impact on the environment and the price for a few cans of paint. But, let's also make sure cars and trucks have the same rules. Pennies per kilometre (at most) vs dollar upon dollar if you want to add up the real costs.

Quote:Sorry but anything

That's plain wrong. You don't own the mineral rights or the airspace over your lot. You can't build whatever you want, or decide to start up a business without the proper licences and approvals. Safeguarding a valuable public resource such as fully-grown trees is simply smart, esp. if self-interest is going to trump the community's right to have a say about the type of landscape it wants.

My only comment would be that your idea is silly.

Stump:

Bike lanes are amongst the most UNDERutilized public infrastructure I have ever seen. Their very existence is predicated on miles of dedicated strips of asphalt built at substantial cost. The amount of environmental impact their creation has made likley trumps any benefits, except of course for votes of the knee-jerk enviro crowd.

"Silly argument" on your part re: pennnies for cyclists. Vehicles subsidized? Sorry....very stereotypical and myopic view. Vehicles are heavily taxed, via the gas tax. Roads are crucial for modern society and the commerce to "fuel" it. Huge industries are attached directly and indirectly to the use of vehicles. Lets run the economy on bicycles, like a 3rd world country ?

It's much like cigarettes taxes. Gov't is so addicted to the revenues gleaned from Fuel Taxes they would collapse without them.

We've already differentiated between Surface and Subsurface rights. Airspace is neither surface nor subsurface and is not the issue. Permits etc. is not the point. Its after the fact that is the concern. After one has run the Red Tape gauntlet,there needs to be a carrot at the end, not just another stick.

It has nothing to do with self - interest, like people have agendas to make 100% sure they screw society. Its the exact opposite. All this added Red Tape such as Tree Bylaws indicates is Gov'ts ever - straying from the important issues and catering to silly mind candy by special interest groups. One mini-dictator works symbiotically in an advisory(or else !!!) capacity with the other.

I guess you don't have much familiarity with Local Gov't Bylaws . Not that I necessarily find fault with that...it often takes a fair bit of work to get a handle on them from genesis to implimentation. However,it often makes for fascinating reading.

Can't wait for the Property Tax waiver...keep on quasi-expropriating.

Road taxes

Fuel taxes don't cover the costs of road-building, car accidents, lost productivity, etc. That all adds up.

The stereotypical, erroneous, and self-serving p.o.v. is that drivers pay their own way. Study after study has documented the subsidies for car use inherent in our current transportation system. Look it up.

Bike lanes require a can of paint. Where's the big cost?

I wouldn't suggest running an economy exclusively on bicycles (or cars, or buses, or trains), though non-third world countries and cities like Toronto show how infrastructure for, and recognition of, bikes as useful modes of transport encourages their use. The upsides of better health, less stress, and lower cost to the taxpayer can't be disputed.

Rail can serve many shipping needs, while freeing up roadspace. Better transit can free up roadspace and reduce pollution.

Roads ARE crucial to modern society. But cars are not. They are an expensive luxury that we increasingly can ill afford.

FYI, there were bikes long before there were roads. There will be bikes long after the last car rusts unused and unfueled in a not-so-distant future. Bikes don't need roads... and they certainly don't need 8 lane freeways.

under-utilized roads

You should take a look at how empty the roads are in the middle of the night. A sensible alternative to more roads would be to shift shipping and transport road use to off-peak hours.

You should consider the inefficiency of propogating a system that encourages the use of cars at 25% capacity (one car, one driver.. the dreaded S.O.V.) if efficiencies are truly your concern.

rewards

Why should you be rewarded for playing by the rules? It's expected of all citizens right? This isn't daycare. You don't get a gold star for doing what's expected of you.

Well done Stump

You've just sustained Maestro's best and only shot, and come away unscathed.

He's really a one-issue guy and you goaded him with the point about the responsibilities that accompany the rights of property ownership.

He's still trying to find a way to get his land out of the ALR. All the rest is the noise of a stick dragging noisily along a picket fence. Oh, and he has a real hate on for bikes and the folks who ride them.

He's baaaackkkkkk

Gee G West:

When you appear, I think of that cartoon with a person lying in a hospital bed in traction with a full body cast...healing up from the l-a-t-e-s-t whooping.

BTW How's the file going Alci ? given the stunt you pulled the only file you should have should be inside a cake G West brings to spring you.

C'mon G WEST is that THE best you got....whats this hissing noise emanating while you piss your pants , "err" escaping ?

Stump: RE: rewards "

Oh geeeezzzz.

.....And you wonder why I use the word LEFTIE.

QUOTE: " Why should you be rewarded for playing by the rules " ? ....huh? were you a concentration camp warden ?

Also: Looks like ALCI's changed names .

PS Whaddya think about the recent suggestion that UNpaid fines should be attached to the renewal of ones Driver's License and/or Insurance Renewal ?

(Does that idea get you all excited G.West/ Stump/Alci ?)

Sounds like a plan to me maestro

I hope Stump sees your question.

I haven't polled him on that issue and all of us lefties speak for ourselves. That's the nice thing about independent thought.

Except for GWest and Alci, who, when they were both singing - used the same songbook. But now that Alci is in retirement - he's an old dead Greek after all - GWest is carrying all the mail. Alive thinks I’m stretched too thin but I think he should check his own powder.

It's a tough gig but I think I'll manage.

G West:

If its sounds like "a plan"...explain "the plan".

fines

I think that's been in place for a while. I had to pay a speeding ticket before I could renew my licence last time I did so... and the last time I insured a vehicle ('97 I believe). Unless you're referring to some new measure that I'm unaware of. I heard something today about convicted DUI offenders losing their safe driver discount (or something like that). Is that what you are referring to?

Why do you answer my question with a question? Let me ask you again. You want 'a carrot' for abiding by the law?

With regard to the warden question... Sorry, but you'll have to be more clear. I don't understand your question. At first blush it appears to be another of your non sequiters.

Finally, I'm just me and I only post under one handle.

the hate-on

When I look at the pinched, stressed faces I see on drivers compared to the serene expression most cyclists seem to travel with, I understand why some people have a 'hate-on'. It's hard not to be envious of someone who's having a good time for free, while one pays for the dubious privilege of piloting one's own cage.

This one

You brought it up. Remember?

Stump:re Fines

The Fines issue apparently expands FAR beyond vehicular offences.

Vancouver City Councillor Kim Capri feels that UNpaid tickets for Bylaw infractions should be dealt with via Full Payment of the Fine before issuance of a Driver's License and/or Insurance Renewal.

In other words, ByLaw violations in such things like being drunk in public or nuisance violations were mentioned. If fined, and not paid, No Car Insurance nor Driver's License.

Your thoughts on that RED TAPE possibility. (I have my own).

Carrot ?

Who say the Tree ByLaw was right to start,and implimented for what reasons ?

Building permits are basicaly bulls -eyes for cash grabs , especialy since Local Gov'ts are more and more deferring to Private sector inspections

Even Rafe say the best way to get RID of a BAD law is to enforce it.

Tree Bylaw? Usually applies to trees of a certain diameter or larger . Hence plant a tree, let it grow..ooops getting TOO big...cut it down before it comes within a nanometer of the Bylaws specs.

Start over?....or there is the "Zero" Pro-Choice option.."abort" the idea, no one can force you to have a tree. Then you are back to 100% ownership of your private property if you do NOT have a tree, correct?

ByLaws often backfire...such is Red Leftie Tape .

Hmm.

Hate on?

No Hate -on .....

Other than that incident I mentioned a weeks ago...where by Stump piped in and felt it was OK for cyclists to call females the C_nt word.

Cyclists are OK, though a lot seem to act like rather arrogant assh_les at times...the ones who feel they can morph into a car and drive in vehicular lanes when it suits them, yet not do the speed limit, you know those assh_les.

I know those assh-les alright

I am one. I have as much right to safe passage on the road as you. If that requires I take the lane, so be it. The law agrees. I also know the assh-le drivers who roar past me between stop signs. I usually see them at the next one, and the one after that.

Arrogance (to me) is thinking that because you're ensconced in a plastic and metal cage that can kill others in a split second, we should all get of your way. For a guy going on about 'rights' you are certainly selective in who actually gets to have any.

Not sure what you'r first comment about calling someone a c-nt is all about.

errata

"we should all get out of your way.

Stump:

"C" word.

Look back in the archives. I was describing the time the Bike Riders/protestors shut down the Cambie Street Bridge last year for almost 30 minutes....and were calling some women "C"'s. I guess they gave themselves a permit...their own carrot and a stick .

Of course, that the car drivers had places to go and were obeying the law(ie using the vehicular lanes and not driving on the sidewalks)yet their own legal rights were being violated is irrelevant.
You , Stump, gave me the impression that the end justified the means.

I'm sure the cyclists improved their image after that.

Seems old G West is doing some sort of digging, moving laterally at the bottom of the barrel, and using their usual Leftie methodology and propoganda.

Many cyclists treat the world like their personal mountain bike course...no helmets,no rules and shortest point from A to B. Maybe they should be ticketed for not using the bike lanes...they are often a hazard anywhere else.

You Lefties often have the most subjective and self -serving definition of rights...(Note: they call them "rights" not lefts). Self -centered Lefties...That's a major part of the world's problems.

helmet head

This coming from the guy calling people assh-les just a few posts earlier. LOL. It's funny because of the hypocrisy.

Very erroneous to suggest mountain bikers ride without helmets. Of all the cycling flavours that's the one cohort most likely to be wearing a brain bucket. Not that you seem to let facts get in the way of a good rant.

It's funny to see drivers failing to avail themselves of other streets when Critical Mass goes by. Or, taking a deep breath and waiting the few minutes it takes for the procession to pass. Considering drivers have no problem sitting behind their brethren in traffic jams of their own making for long periods of time, one wonders why a couple of minutes of delay when the green alternative goes by leaves them so bent out of shape.

Of course I DO feel their pain. I'm often stuck behind a long line of single occupant vehicles whether I'm cycling or using the bus, wishing I didn't have to sit in traffic sucking fumes.

But enough of that. What's this got to do with red tape?

ignoring the rules

I'd invite you to take a bike ride on Ontario St some time and see how many drivers ignore the traffic islands designed to prevent rat-running in THEIR quest for a the fastest way from Point A to B.

For every bad cyclist there's a dozen bad drivers. Care to guess who's more likely to kill somebody?

A-Holios

Yes...and I qualified the term "assh_les".

My own observations is that approx. 1/2 the cyclist do not wear helmets(RED TAPE)..and I won't go into Darwinian Club membership dues they haven't paid.

Many thieves use bikes...having learned its faster than two feet.

Ontario Street, near City Hall area, should be called CUBA north. I see areas of Vancouver with traffic frustrating curbs and BIKE ONLY allowances in what was once normal vehicular routes. 100000's of cyclist must benefit...but they must be invisible, ie so physcially fit their body fat %/muscle must be in negative numbers.

Met a person who rents buildings in the area...one had a fire. The Fire Trucks barely got their in time. He was told later " off -the-record" by a Firemen that these cyclist friendly traffic restrictions(RED TAPE) are impeding Fire Trucks to where they have to take longer routes to get to the emergencies. Not good.

Then there are the GUCCI cyclists all decked out like they are training for the Tour de France..I guess if they ride their $5000 bikes up and down Quebec Street that counts somehow.

Its ALL RED TAPE, Stump.., waste of time/waste of $$$ U-S-E-L-E-S-S bullsh!te based on vast minority of squeaky-ista wheel-sky's. Many Lefties are simply just cheap selfish self- centered hypocrites yet trying to make the majority think they know better and we should thus trust them...OR ELSE !!!

Again...RED TAPE loving assh_les.

Have a Nice Day !

city planning

Should definitely be done based upon off-the-record comments by firefighters. You should pickle that red-herring before it starts to stink of stupidity.

We should also criticize people who can afford a nice bike and the clothing to make cycling more comfortable. This is only fair and right, because generalizations based upon appearance are rarely erroneous.

With both Cambie and Main just blocks away, one wonders why Ontario St simply MUST be the through-way for cars.

Considering how crappy and inattentive many drivers are, people embracing a zero emission transport method aren't being selfish by asking for some traffic calming on a few routes. They're trying to survive in an environment almost completely given over to an inefficient, dangerous mode of transport.

Sure, we're in the minority. Early adopters always are. This will change, even though reactionaries such as yourself are reluctanct to concede a few feet of public space to a worthwhile activity that's good for the individual, the society, the economy, and the environment. After all, everyone dies, but statistically speaking, the cyclists live longer. So, as cyclists increase in numbers... and live longer... well, you can guess the rest.

Thieves use bikes. So do police. Drug dealers use cel phones. So do priests. Perhaps you have a point? I'm sure missing it.

Sorry Stump: I saw the

Sorry Stump:

I saw the aftermath of that fire...and it was clear the area had access problems for FireTrucks ie anything of the length of that type of vehicle.

However, maybe that's part of the Leftie agenda..let the buildings burn , then it will go back to nature....and the less people the quicker the aforementioned can occur.

BTW: of course you miss the point...that's often MY very point.

ALSO: Gucci cyclists look like a clown on the way to the circus...who are they trying to impress?

I see more of the seedy element on bikes...thus it casts others in a bad light. It's gotten to the point in our area that any cyclist stopping and looking at a building is more than likely casing the place. That's the way it is.

Fer F's sakes, many people do NOT feel the streets are safe...people DRIVE their kids to school..etc, vehicles provide far better security. How many bikes do you see at Police Auctions...theft of these is rampant. It's often better to eat the loss than file an insurance claim...given the deductible.

Roads were designed for CARS, Cities are planned around that. If you live on a street, you expect reasonable access, not some newly expanded stupid curb /planter encroaching on the original road with shrubbery and all sort of NO "this" and NO "that" ,etc all adding up to a road to NOwhere.

Fair is fair.....so cars should be able to use bike lanes, right?...especially since they are so underused its laughable. Tear em up......they are just mind- candy to politicians, bureaucrats and the minority of Squeaky-ista Wheel-sky's.

Bike fans..you pay the freight. To me the "bicycle friendly /biased Public Infrastructure investment" is a bigger scam and the least bang for a buck.

Peddle your scam elsewhere,( maybe CUBA?)

Sin of Omission

Apologies Stump:

When someone like those aforementioned cyclists acts like an assh_le, .....cycles like an assh_le .....and talks like an assh_le in those sorts of situations expressing their subjective personal interpretation of free speeech and free will , and at the cost of others....they are ASSH_LES !!! The Law says I can call em as I see them if the shoe fits ....right up their yang yang(assh_le) as well.

Of course, you missed that point to.

(Do you wear a helmet )?

Two wheels good

Nobody?

I wonder why they put bus stops, crosswalks and bike lanes on them then?

Ah yes, I notice my point that car use is subsidized has somehow escaped your eagle-eye. You don't care to debate that point... I don't blame you... why back a losing horse?

Are they free to use sidewalks? Get a clue.

I think you're right. Playgrounds too. They just sit empty most of the time. Many of them could be parking lots instead.

Oh really? You should do your research. A car is the most likely place for a child to be injured or killed.

"Our streets are unsafe" is more nonsense and fear-mongering. The reality is, the more people on the street, the safer that street is. Locking yourself away in a car makes you part of the problem.

That's because you lack vision and have an irrational dislike for the mode of transportation. Not much one can do to fight that.

Wow. That's probably the most petty and ridiculous thing to come from you yet.. and that's saying something. Do you have the Berlin Wall of planters on your street or are you just a very bad driver?"

As the schoolkids are wont to say, "takes one to know one."

Try me again when you know what you're talking about.

Ta-ta, a bike ride on a beautiful day awaits me.

Cars are subsidized LOL ???

Cars are subsidized??? LOL...

Wave the Leftie RED TAPE wand.."CUT THE SUBSIDY"..use RED TAPE ...."CUT THE SUBSIDY" ...first identify the subsidy...coded language for look out for WW III.

Cars =Less safe?..more likley to get killed...? SURE...in a bulk-comprehensive sense but that is more an expanded objective (ie Non Leftie) discussion based on miles per fatality. Most people use vehicles....odds of fatalities are proportional to this.

Probably most can be attributed to two wheeled assh_les who spastically morph between "I am a quasi-CAR when its convenient" TO "I am a quasi-pedestrian when its convenient".

Curbs = artsy fartsy planters?
Sign of Leftie-ism...ahhhhgggg!!! ...as well as useless and bored City planners and City engineeers catering to the Leftie minority. Charge Lefties for thinking about them and also for looking at them.

I base my observations re Bike Lane useage on something Lefties absolutely hate ...ie ACTUAL DAILY OBJECTIVE OBSERVATIONS via transversing roads with dedicated bike lanes ..what a waste of tax dollars.

PS Enjoy your ride...actually I will go for a walk. Bikes actually pollute... rubber contamination on asphalt...loss of gear lubricants , attitude.......you get the bigger picture.

Car costs and subsidies

Here's some links to help you better understand the real costs of cars to our economy and society and the advantages to the economy and the environment by promoting cycling as a viable transportation option.

Hopefully this information can serve you better than the erroneous opinions you've shared in this thread.

If you can find data to discount the generally accepted perspective that car use is subsidized by everyone, please do pass it along.

I'll hunt around for the statistics that show bikes are per capita a better choice in terms of longevity.

Hopefully this information will encourage you to stop treating your erroneous perspective as Gospel. No debate is well-served by mis-information, close-mindedness, and the substitution of opinion for fact.

http://www.econ.ucsb.edu/~tedb/Courses/UCSBpf/readings/jamtoday.html

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:LAmO3NibPvMJ:globalsubsidies.org/private/modules/knowledgebox/io/file.php%3Fentry%3D641%26field%3D39+cars+and+subsidies&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=ca

http://www.transalt.org/blueprint/chapter1/chapter1g.html

http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/almanac.html

Quote:Cars =Less safe?..more

Are you suggesting that all things being equal, bike riders would have the same incidence of fatalities as car drivers? That comparing a thousand cyclists and a thousand car drivers would deliver the same per capita death rate? I'd find that to be an interesting assertion... and would love to see it proven.

Maestro

Sorry, I usually don't have time to follow your contorted posts to the end - you're obviously a LOT smarter than I am - but you are dead wrong about the fire on Ontario - and I know that one too and can tell you lots of details including who owned the house and how it went up and why as well as when. A very sorry situation indeed.

Because it's my neighbourhood. And I helped fight for the traffic measures to stop the likes of Mario Andretti in his 5-litre from pealing stripes down the blocks once city hall put the pedestrian lights in at Cambie and 10th, and Main and 10th. That's the only thing that got us going.

Ohhhh...the things I've seen, especially late at night.

The traffic calming plan was developed jointly with the neighbourhood and city hall and received 73% assent in a free vote of all the 1700+ inhabitants and store owners of that neighbourhood bounded by Main, Broadway Cambie and 12th Ave to help protect the largest collection of heritage A, B and C houses in the city in one area, as well as two heritage streets.

And we had Jim Law of the City's Fire Prevention Office (at the time) at all of our meetings explaining what the Fire Department would accept and what it wouldn't. All signs are breakaway signs and the VFD knows they can run over them any time. All diverters are constructed so the trucks can run right over them without damage. The VFD has maps and training sessions on all calmed areas for all staff.

We'd like things to have been different - after all, we are forced to detour just to get home or leave our houses - but the rest of the city felt it was their right to turn our streets into their freeway, driving recklessly whenever traffic backed up on Broadway or 12th. And the calming doesn't always work. There are still a small minority of people with an attitude much like yours who insist it is their right to drive anywhere they want, anytime they want, any way they want, regardless of what the road signs, diverters or police say.

Incidentally, why don't you ask Dale Mikkelson at the City of Vancouver for stats on the 10th Ave. bike route. I live right on 10th and some days at rush hour, especially in the morning, it resembles a 1960s Shanghai traffic jam.

I'llk be the first to admit there are quite a number of cyclists who have a selfish attitude about stop signs themselves, but they sometimes get into scraps outside my house, and the cyclists almost always lose.

Unfortunately, when motorists are wrong, they win, even when they lose.

thank you zalm

Great post! My sincere thanks for stepping in to counter the un-truths and faulty premises.

thanks again.

usage hint

btw, transverse doesn't mean what you think it means.

try "traverse" next time you're looking for a fancy way to say crossing the street.

usage hint

btw, transverse doesn't mean what you think it means.

try "traverse" next time you're looking for a fancy way to say crossing the street.

oops

sorry for the double post.

Or as Maestro might say:

Please forgive the duality of the applicaton of my digit to the button mechanism which controls my Internet-capable communications device.

My two cents about cyclists

Thanks to Stump and other cyclists that's X less cars on the roads with me. They might live longer than me with all that exercise IF they wear helmets and have good lights and reflectors -it's just so many don't. Those that don't scare the hell out of me.

re bikes and lights

We'll never know, but I wonder how many car drivers would buy seatbelts, lights and rear tail-lights for their vehicles if they were after-market accessories. Esp, city drivers where lights aren't necessary to see where you're going.

Having said that, I agree that visibility is important to survival. Too many drivers are very inattentive.

To put it less politely... GET OFF THE PHONE AND DRIVE!

(prev. comment not directed at you B.P)

Apology accepted Stump for the post in stereo

Yes...it is Traverse...vs Transverse.

PS Did you send that post from your wireless LapTop while riding your bike?

Just curious.

Stump:

How the hell do you know that Blonde PitBull isn't guilty of what you accuse others of ?

How many of the "kinder -gentler gender" do you see using their 4 wheeled greenhouse gas contributors as mobile beauty salons putting on their make-up etc for the purposes of attracting the "other gender" while in transit...and maybe even on the CELL PHONE at the same time while pRimping .

Maybe make the roads safer with a diesel or solar- powered hair dryer attached to the cell phone and reduce Cyclist injuries/fatalities by at least 500% (give or take).

That's all common knowledge.

Sexist remarks

become you. Keep it up.

Maestro, ROTFLMAO

You've gotta meet me, buddy, to see the joke. I do own a cell phone I'll admit but as my daughter, work and friends will attest to I rarely remember to charge it let alone turn it on. Treat my vehicle as a beauty salon...oh, gawd, my sides hurt... no never...last time I wore make up other than mascara was my birthday last year. I haven't yet cracked a mirror or had folks run screaming ripping their eyes out. In fact I still get enough looks/propositions when the girls and I go out to make twentysomething, early thirties girls ask me how I do it. Answer: I'm comfortable in my own skin.

Stump, you're right about the cell phones I'd like to really tear a strip off of more than a few motorists. Cell phone use by drivers on the stupidity scale is only beaten by lack of visibility of pedistrians and cyclists because the latter lose every time.

Blonde Pitbull:

My Dear:

Anyone that has the M-O-X-Y to call themselves BLONDE PITBULL in this day and age has got to be a Classy Act , a Warrior in the Real World, and most importantly, a real credit to their gender !!!

I LOOOVVVE IT !

In the spirit of the aforementioned, I think Stump is getting "cranque -ee". Maybe Stump needs to have their very first date...maybe fix em' up with one of your unattached friends, which may be tough. Your friends, , much like you, sound like a 100% prime catch for someone of the opposite gender, and very likely spoken for many times over.

(Sorry Stump, we tried. Certain genders would be turned off with the name " Stump " , maybe change the Birth Certificate, try "Old Growth" or something like that ).

However, BLONDE PITBULL ,if you are driving down the road (and its not your birthday and you ain't putting on the war paint ), why not blow a kiss to the party in the vehicle next to you at the red light and wink ...it may be moi "one day" .

PS If you think any of the aforementioned is "sexist"...I HAVE _______ !!!

Fixing Stump up?

I think his wife and family might object.
As for his handle I think its just fine.
If he was trolling for a date he wouldn't be here he'd be on plentyoffish or whatever.
Probably use his real name, too, like I would.
Can you imagine the wackos I'd get responding to "Blonde Pitbull" on a dating site. Makes my skin crawl.

Now,could you explain your PS you have...what, sex? most adults do.

THX BP!

Well, a girlfriend actually. A smart, beautiful bike-riding girlfriend if I might brag a little. But, yeah, I doubt she'd be keen on the idea.

As for you Maestro... I don't really care if your idea of a rebuttal is an ad hominem comment on the size of my cock and dating history, but you might consider how poorly it reflects upon your debating tactics. It's basically an admission that you have nothing of substance left to add to the topic, or any points to make as a rebuttal to others' dissection of your erroneous statements.

Anyway, I think it's zalm you should really direct your impotent rage and sad little attempts at baiting towards. He/She is the one that really handed you your ass on a platter in this thread.

One last thing

Did you want to actually debate our off-topic diversion (bikes) and/or red tape, or are we done here?

I think he/she

may be done....

kinda like dinner.
Gotta run before the peas boil over.

You're welcome, Stump, she's

You're welcome, Stump, she's a lucky lady. I'm sure she brags about you too.

Quote:Anyway, I think it's

Didn't mean to. But that won't do me any good - Maestro is already revving up the Mad Max machine to cruise down my block looking for a balding male LEFTY to run over. It's a target-rich neighbourhood, Maestro, and rednecks from Surrey stick out a bunch, in case you're thinking of disguising yourself.

Seriously, I wasn't going to get into the detour on bikes, but I enjoyed the thread, and want to be on record as supporting all but the most ignorant aspects of red tape. I've found that nearly all of it is necessary at some point to ensure fair treatment for all, and only a little of it is poorly thought out or implemented.

Unfortunately, if it's your business or your house or your enjoyment of private property that is affected, I respect your right to complain. Which we've heard in spades ever since someone first thought he knew better than someone else so many, many years ago....

I'm not sure why the usual actors are complaining here. Enough money always buys a big knife to cut through the red tape. Witness Peter Wall's proverbial big middle finger to the City of Vancouver's planning department. It seems a deal is a deal, except to Peter.

Blonde Pitbull et al

See, ya'll made G West's pees boil over. I hope he and Alci send you the bill.

Actually, I'm the last person who will resort to the negative things you imply. Of course, you Lefties won't believe me, but we'll leave it at that.

I'm now intrigued by the latest episode RED TAPE version of "Barbarians at the Gates ". The Global Warming religion is now facing some serious ass-kicking rebuttal.

Hopefully the Lie Meisters will be kept at bay before they subject us to more Red Tape which becomes very difficult to undo, especially politically. Al Gore types can often be the most dangerous in the RED TAPE wars.

Obviously we have different views ( surprise- surprise !!! )of what is good RED TAPE and bad RED TAPE. Old style RED TAPE seemed to have a bit of common sense and was simply a hard copy formalized version of common sense. Who wants bald tires on the road when it is snowing out, or Pit Bulls running around (B.P. NO ....I am NOT referring to you , dear. I am sure your presence in public is an unmixed blessing ie a TRUE positive !!!).

Nowadays, the powers that be seem to create RED TAPE as a stop gap measure to appease a minority(such as TYEE Lefties). The irony is that many already existing RED TAPE laws could adequately address the give situation, but looking stupid just ain't sexy enough .

Explained further, the existing laws didn't work, the given problem still exists, this makes the powers -that- be look impotent, they avoid this exposed reality at all costs, thus move into perception mode with ....drum roll... ta da ....a BRAND NEW batch/layer of Red Tape.

Peter Wall's 40 + storey indigent digit? Good for him.

If you are referring to the aesthetics issue of his building , the man knew what he was doing and felt he had every right to do it. That should be a Shrine/Mecca for all those have a true respect for democracy and free speech...and who have valid concerns re: the RED TAPE cult. If some of you get your Leftie jollies on being a pusher for contemporary societies addiction to non-sensical mindless RED TAPE BS, that's your right to believe, but keep it to yourself.

Zalm = a Leftie ? Nooooo!

Blonde Pit Bull:
...Sorry dear, re: "the blank____ " in my last post. It's for me to know....you guessed wrong...and I won't go into Bl___nd J___kes.

Stump: No offence re your "rooster", its too tempting a moniker. However, if some assh_le ambushes you while you are out on your bike by jumping out of one of those new planter curbs laden with shrubbery for the assh_le to hide in. I'll be "right" there to help you out if I am driving by (unless I have to get a RED TAPE permit to be allowed to help you first). Then make sure you are close to City Hall.

Have a good St PADDY'S DAY's All.

I will actually be dodging raindrops and volunteering(RED TAPE FREE DAY !!!!) to assist future "Blonde (and Brunette and Redhaired and ____ )Pit Bulls " and their peers who will be also be a real credit to their genders as our resident TYEE one is.