Topic
Opponents prefer sentiment to sustainability.
Cuter than cod
I saw something the other day that made me sick to my stomach. It was in the February edition of The Grocer, a British retail-food magazine.
There was an article about a campaign that a group called Respect for Animals is waging to convince consumers to boycott Canadian seafood products. The magazine also carried two huge advertisements from the same outfit.
One of the ads consisted of a photograph of a masked man on an ice floe, and a seal lying prone at his feet. The man was brandishing a club with a spike on the end of it. The words You Can Stop This were superimposed upon the picture. The other advertisement proclaimed "Boycott Canadian Seafood & Save the Seals," with a picture of a can of Canadian salmon.
The Canadian fishing industry exports more than $100 million worth of products into Britain every year. The point of the campaign is to squeeze those sales until the industry begs our government to end the seal hunt.
Here's what makes me sick.
The Newfoundland seal hunt is transparently and demonstrably sustainable and humane. There are roughly half a million people in Newfoundland and Labrador, and nearly six million harp seals, which is almost three times as many seals as when I was a kid.
Free range seals
Roughly 6,000 fishermen, mostly Newfoundlanders, but some are from Quebec and the Maritimes, take slightly more than 300,000 harp seals annually. The fishermen share more than $16 million from the hunt at a critical time of year when there's little in the way of fishing income to be had. The seals are harvested for their pelts and their fat, for a range of products, mostly for clothing and for Omega-3 vitamins.
The killing is as about as clean as anything you're likely to find in an abattoir. Seals don't spend their lives cooped up in paddocks or feedlots. They live free, and in all but the rarest cases, the ones that die at the hands of a swiler (a sealer) die instantly. The hakapik (a spiked club) is an effective instrument.
Even so, most seals are first shot with rifles. The killing of nursing whitecoats was banned 20 years ago.
Exploiting empathy
Here's one of those obligatory disclosures: over the years, several environmental organizations -- the Sierra Club, the David Suzuki Foundation, Greenpeace, etc. -- have subsidized my preoccupation with things that move in the water by having me do research projects for them and so on. With that out of the way, I can now say, if it isn't obvious already, that it's the seal hunt's opponents who turn my stomach.
It's not just that anti-hunt crusades like this are especially foul in the way they dishonestly misrepresent facts. It's also that they dishonestly manipulate one of the most redeeming traits the human species has inherited from hundreds of thousands of years of natural selection and cultural evolution -- our capacity to expand the embrace of our empathy to include other forms of life.
But far worse than all that, boycott campaigns like this muddy the important distinction between sustainability and sentiment, and between broadly co-ordinated acts of social responsibility and mere lifestyle choices. When we fail to make these distinctions we undermine everything worthwhile that environmentalism has accomplished since it emerged in the early 1970s.
As citizens and consumers in free societies, we are burdened with the duty to make important decisions at the ballot box, in the work we do, and also in the marketplace. Boycotting Canadian seafood to try and stop the seal hunt is the consumer-choice equivalent of deciding to buy a tie-died shirt, move into a Volkswagen van and subsist solely on lentils and tofu.
Serious stakes
Just as the excesses of postmodernist relativism have enfeebled the left over the past quarter-century or so, a corrosive strain of fact-distorting, science-hating, Gaia-bothering obscurantism has enfeebled environmentalism.
It was there from the beginning, and it persists most noticeably in animal-rights crusades. It is the environmentalist equivalent of anti-evolution, rapture-seeking Christian zealotry. It has to be attacked wherever it rears its head. There's too much at stake to pretend we can be innocent bystanders here. This is a fight we all have to join.
Here's why.
The last time the planet was in the throes of an extinction spasm this cataclysmic was when the dinosaurs disappeared 65 million years ago. One in every four mammal species, one in eight bird species, one in nine plants, a third of all amphibians and half of all the surveyed fish species on earth are threatened with extinction.
When Greenpeace was born in Vancouver in 1971, the single greatest cause of species extinction was understood to be habitat loss. Now, the greatest threat to biological diversity is global warming. The last time the atmosphere was accumulating greenhouse gases this fast was 650,000 years ago. The prospects look exceedingly grim -- broad-scale ecological disruption, crop failure and famine, desertification and the mass dislocation of some of the most heavily-populated regions of the world.
A key reason environmentalists found themselves so ill-prepared to convince the world to take global warming seriously was that their movement had been corrupted by precisely the same trippy sentiment-mongering that has animated the holy war against the Newfoundland seal hunt, which now turns its sights on Canadian fisheries products.
Where was Greenpeace?
When the founders of Greenpeace were being born, back in the 1950s, the world's fishing fleets were taking roughly 40 million tonnes of marine biomass from the world's oceans every year. By the 1980s, it was 80 million tonnes. Then the seas just stopped giving. Fully 90 per cent of all the big fish in the sea -- the tunas, the marlins, the sharks, the swordfish -- are now gone.
Of the many fisheries collapses that have occurred around the world in recent years, it is sadly ironic that the greatest single collapse occurred in the seas around Newfoundland, where the bulk of Canada's Atlantic seal hunt takes place. The Grand Banks cod fishery was the largest and oldest pelagic fishery in the history of the human experience.
The cod were mined from the sea by the same big-boat offshore fleets that had caused such devastation everywhere else. A way of life disappeared, and by the early 1990s, tens of thousands of workers were reduced to welfare. While all this was happening, what were environmentalists doing on the Newfoundland coast, in the country where Greenpeace was born, at a time when Greenpeace was at the height of its powers?
They were out cavorting with rich hippies and snuggling up to harp seal pups on the ice floes. They were meditating cross-legged in the snow and posing for the television cameras and demonizing the good people of Newfoundland, while the seas around them were being emptied of cod.
Rational agreements
When you go looking for the good that environmentalism has accomplished, you'll find it in such covenants as the United Nations Convention on Biological Diversity, the Montreal Protocol on ozone-depleting substances, and the Kyoto Accord. It's in the sustainability provisions of elaborately negotiated efforts such as the Brundtland Commission on the Environment and Development, and the UN Code of Conduct for Responsible Fishing.
The toughest global instrument to protect biodiversity is the Convention on the International Trade in Endangered Species. Fuzzy eco-drivel has already severely damaged CITES by forcing non-threatened species, such as North Atlantic minke whale, onto the CITES appendices. Now, in Germany and Belgium, animal-rights activists and their friends in the European Parliament are attempting to override CITES, and the European Union's own rules, with an outright ban on products from Canada's perfectly abundant harp seal population.
Similarly, seal-hunt opponents are dangerously undermining the historic victory that flowed from the Brundtland Commission. The commission established a commitment to sustainability as the key universal value to guide natural-resource harvesting policies for all the peoples of the world, regardless of their distinct cultural practices and sensibilities.
The whole point of sustainability is to ensure that people can exercise the rights and accept the responsibilities that come with sustainably harvesting the natural resources of the ecosystems within which they live. The harp seal hunt is a living embodiment of that principle. That's why environmentalists should not just give the boycott a pass, or stay neutral, but should actively support and defend the seal hunt.
The one consolation we can take from the recent hullabaloo is that it's faltering. Last year, when animal-rightists in the United States boasted that they'd convinced more than 200 restaurants and seafood retailers to boycott Canadian products to protest the hunt, it turned out that only a small minority were doing so. Most of them didn't even know they'd been listed as boycott-compliant.
Also, the European Commission, citing the absence of evidence to support contentions that the hunt is inhumane, has refused, for now, to enforce the European Parliament's proposed ban on seal products.
Contested Council
But the consumer boycott campaign that's just begun in Britain is particularly insidious. Its aim is all Canadian fisheries products, and its targets are Tesco, Sainsbury's, Somerfield and other major retail chains that have already made a commitment to eventually carrying only those seafood products that have been certified by the Marine Stewardship Council.
The MSC standard remains hotly contested by responsible environmentalists, but its coveted "eco-label" holds out the hope of forcing improvements to fisheries-management policies around the world. In Canada, those improvements are increasingly driven by the fishermen themselves, because they want the MSC label on their product.
British Columbia's halibut fishery was turned down once, and has since re-applied, because groundfish management has significantly improved -- thanks in no small part to halibut fishermen. Other fishermen are now lobbying federal fisheries officials to improve stock-assessment research to give B.C.'s dogfish fishery a shot at the MSC label. British Columbia's sockeye salmon fisheries have just undergone an arduous certification examination, and a decision is imminent.
If the cuddliness of a particular species harvested in a particular country is allowed to become the factor that determines whether that country's products are considered environmentally acceptable, then everything we won at CITES and in the Brundtland Commission is lost. If those are the kinds of choices we present to everyone from major retailers down to ordinary seafood consumers, then we'll have wasted all our efforts to marshal consumer power to force the sustainable use of the oceans.
It's long past time for conservationists to make a clean, clear, open and unequivocal break with crystal-gazing animal-rights eccentrics and all their camp followers. For them, the conservation of wild resources was always just a flag of convenience. They're dead ballast, so over the side with them.
On the question of the Atlantic harp seal harvest, there's only one defensible and honest position for a conservation-minded citizen to take.
Support the swilers.
Related Tyee stories:
![[Tyee]](http://thetyee.cachefly.net/ui/img/ico_fishie.png){kind=small}
133
Login or register to post comments
zalm
6 years ago
Glavin
You had me with you all the way at the beginning and at the end, nodding and chuckling over your turns of phrase and your summaries of conventions and research, and it's only when you got to the following paragraphs that I shook my head over what you said and thought to myself "Terry, how can you be so blind?"
It was there from the beginning, and it persists most noticeably in animal-rights crusades. It is the environmentalist equivalent of anti-evolution, rapture-seeking Christian zealotry. It has to be attacked wherever it rears its head. There's too much at stake to pretend we can be innocent bystanders here.
seanorr
6 years ago
Oh no
I actually agree with Glavin! I mean, do you think they would get so upset if they hunted hagfish?
zalm
6 years ago
And Terry....
Post-modern relativism has not enfeebled the Left, nor has anything else. It is truly stronger than ever.
It is your definition of Left that has suffered. Leftism has always been only the preserve of those few (sometimes darned few) who have truly studied the facts and lessons history teaches us, most notably through Bentham, Mill and Owen. Its most popular tenets - universalism, tolerance/equal rights of sexes, separation of church and state, abolition of slavery, to name but a few - have become so universal in the Western world , so much the water through which we fish move, that the opposite is unthinkable.
But we are not a leftist society, at least not in North America, and substantially not in South America or Asia either, and in Europe, it's debatable sometimes. Here in North America, we are only at most 100 years out of a regressive Christian worldview so profoundly feudal as to be shaming. Our grandparents lived in that society, and passed along its suspicions, its values, its shibboleths to us.
Think on this:
40 years ago, even consensual sodomy was a criminal offense in Canada, and may still be in some US states.
60 years ago in Quebec, it was unthinkable, never mind illegal, to divorce.
70 years ago in the South, economic slavery, "sharecropping" or debt peonage as it was more properly known (held in bondage to the land you work, forbidden by law to leave) was so prevalent the Supreme Court in the US was forced to hear several cases to overturn its provisions.
How can anybody label a majority of a nation or a people "leftist" or "progressive" or "enlightened" when the law of the land supports majority attitudes like this? We have satisfied no more than three of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and have unthinkingly dismissed the other three as without merit or worth. As a nation, we're no more enlightened than China, itself scarcely 30 years out of a similar feudalism.
So too are your comments about environmentalism equally misanthropic. Just because someone calls himself an "environmentalist" doesn't mean I accept his credentials sight unseen. I don't do that to someone who calls himself a doctor or a good businessman or a thinker or even honest - I test and examine the results.
Terry, you're right - there's an "anti-evolution, science-hating, fact-distorting, Gaia-bothering, rapture-seeking" post-Christian zealotry that has infected North American society. We may not pray to Jesus, but we sure as hell pray to something we have made no attempt to understand, despite the education and abilities within our grasp, resources unmatched at any time in our history as human beings.
Today's animal rights activists are only a part of the problem. So too are classical economists, technological salvationists, some of the traditional Fourth Estate, and virtually anybody who says some version of "don't confuse me with facts!" Most of us graduating from university today are ill-equipped to hold a proper discussion with our fellow man about value and meaning in life, or to be properly able to evaluate method and result in any branch of science, never mind all of them.
You're not a "man of the people", Terry, and I doubt you ever were. Highly educated and committed, with an ability to summarize complex concepts in a few detailed and well-chosen words, you have made a detour somewhere and refuse to recognize what you are. You are truly a classical "leftist", and are hereby called to lead the rest of us into understanding.
Write on! And please, please, reconsider your position.
mijnheer
6 years ago
Logic
So animal rights activists who like cuddly seals are responsible for the decline of fish stocks and for global warming, which is why Terry Glavin thinks it was a good thing to invade Iraq and sign the no-nonsense Euston Manifesto, which doesn't mention capitalism even once. Makes sense to me.
Yes, there are good reasons to be concerned about the welfare of Newfoundland communities. But his use of terms like "sentiment-mongering" and "cuddliness" to disparage those who take seriously the interests of animals indicates that Mr. Glavin is more interested in sentiment-mongering himself than in illuminating the ethical issues around our treatment of the other sentient creatures with whom we share (or fail to share) the planet. I suspect that he is woefully ignorant of the large philosophical literature of the past three decades that is devoted to these issues.
Furthermore, I suspect that it is Mr. Glavin and his Eustonian comrades on the allegedly hard-nosed left who are the real "dead ballast" of progressive politics. A new world is struggling to be born, one that is concerned with local communities, but also has a new, wider notion of membership in the moral community -- and that regards sentient individuals as more than just potential sources of Omega 3 fatty acids.
Dies iræ
6 years ago
Hold it...
Glavin's column for The Tyee is called Dissent?
...and on that ironic note Orwell rolls in his grave.
Right to Bear
6 years ago
Terry's pro seal-hunt, ranting "hitpeice"...
Despite what Terry says in his pro-seal hunt, ranting "hit-piece", this "hunt" is NOT supported either scientifically or ethically.
The markets for the seals include selling the penis's to the Asian market as an aphrodisiac, fur for trinkets, and oil for a dirty, contaminated version of omega 3 capsules. Gee, do you think we can live without some of these products?? This is supposedly WHY these seal pups are killed...but guess what, ITS NOT. These seals are killed so the seal hunters (fishermen) can collect EI. My thoughts are WHAT IS WRONG WTH OUR SYSTEM???
Ethical is it?? Exposing humans to this cruel atrocity in order they receive EI money to raise their families is an outrage. The cruelty these people and their families are exposed to and directly responsible for, would loan their hearts and minds to post-traumatic syndrome, and for what?? EI...pathetic!! People who defend these fisherman\seal-hunters to be allowed to KILL seals are people who do NOT care about them, and that is for sure. Think about it Terry...
Ethics, yeah, let’s talk about ethics. These seal pups and adult seals suffer horrendously. The "blink test" where the sealers are supposed to touch the eyes of the clubbed pup to see if they respond simply does not work. The pups are knocked out for a minute and wake up, most of the time, in the middle of being skinned ALIVE... This is a fact, look it up. NO, I could go on... Clearly, this slaughter is cruel, and the killings all take place in a sacred nursery on the east coast. These pups are to populate the massive area along the east coast, not just that one spot, and any science would have a good chance of exposing the compromised genetic pool of these animals due to the many years of slaughter.
Do seals eat fish...yes, but they also eat squid which are cod fish eaters. They actually help to keep the population of cod up, not down. Over-fishing and bottom trawling along with fish farms carry the responsibility for the decline of the cod on the East Coast...NOT THE SEALS.
'nough...Terry, you are NOT an enviro, but work against environmentalists and the Peace movement. You support things that dehumanize and demoralize the human race. I have much more respect for the sealers than I do you, as you think these men should be involved in this immoral slaughter, and that is the value you give them. This killing is not a tradition, but a travesty and you need to look at supporting these Martine people and lobby, as I have, for the EI system to change for it clearly needs adjusting...
Peace,
Bear
Booker
6 years ago
Sustainability
As a non-postmodernist, science-loving, woo-avoiding, left-winger, I don't like being lumped in with Terry's characterization of "the Left". But I agree with his point that there is something seriously amiss with the celebrity-stoked focus on sealing when the entire ecosystem is falling apart around us. There are far more important issues than the seal hunt. The McCartney's, for example, could have done a lot of good if they'd opposed the factory fishing fleets instead of the poor outport sealers. One has to wonder what the motivation is of those environmentalists who use the cuteness of a species to manipulate the public to support a minor issue. It's important for us to fight the important fights and not spend so much energy opposing hunts that are sustainable.
Bluenose
6 years ago
By jeez der bye, ya got dat dere ting right wan dere, eh?
Always good to see that the condescending west coast attitude toward Atlantic Canada hasn't infected the Tyee forums!
For the sealers that you "respect" (har-de-har-har-HAR), it's a tradition, not a travesty.
Dissent: to withhold assent; to differ in opinion. Given the majority opinion on this forum, Glavin's column is aptly titled.
Most of the time? On what basis are you able to determine this? More importantly, why only "most of the time"? Why, oh why, isn't it "all of the time"?
Yes, in a sacred nursery in the middle of an enchanted ocean guarded by kindly leprechauns who come from the orchards of heaven.
As a transplanted Newfie, I offer the following recipe for your appreciative palattes:
FLIPPER PIE
2 seal flippers
1 small turnip, cubed
3 carrots , sliced
2 onions, sliced
1 parsnip, sliced
2 ½ cups water
1 ½ oz screech
½ fat back pork
2 tbsp vinegar
Dumpling Pastry:
1 ½ cups flour
2 tsp baking powder
small pat of butter
Cut all fat and slag from flippers, place them in a deep dish and add enough boiling water to cover, add vinegar and set aside to cool, then wipe dry with a paper towel and place in baking pan or large casserole dish. Add pepper and salt to taste, cover with sliced onions and sliced fat pork, dribble the screech over the contents. Cover and cook for 2 hours in a pre heated oven , 375 degrees. Boil turnip, carrots and parsnip in 2 ½ cups of water for 20 minutes. When ready place in baking dish along with flipper. Use vegetable water for gravy ... thickened with flour. Make dumpling pastry and pat over flippers and vegetables. Cover and bake gently until pastry is done (about 15 minutes).
Bon appétit, mes chers amis!
Booker
6 years ago
Recipe
1/2 fat back pork! How could you kill those cute little piggies? You barbarian!
MJK
6 years ago
Keep it simple, Terry
I essentially agree with Terry on this issue.
But I've noticed a disturbing tendency in his writing since the wonderful "Death Feast..." hit the shelves ten years ago. He writes like Conrad Black talks. I can't understand him and don't want to anymore.
Chris H
6 years ago
I like meat, but ...
I enjoy eating meat, but I doubt I'd ever eat seal. When kayaking around Indian Arm, they feel more like a companion then my next meal.
There is nothing inherently wrong with killing animals for food, but the seal hunt looks barbaric. A bunch of guys on the ice killing seal pups with a spiked club? Isn't this 2007? Can't we show the animal a little more respect than that?
My guess is that the seal hunt would look very much different today if Newfoundland wasn't so poor. The last time I was there the big issue was that the paramedics in ambulances were fighting for more salary. Want to guess how much they were asking for? You think $25 or $30 and hour? Nope. They wanted $12 and hour. Imagine that! Newfoundland is so poor that they couldn't afford to pay their paramedics $12 an hour! No wonder killing seals looks lucrative.
Capitalism
6 years ago
Another Good Article
I agree with this guy entirely! I almost always do. He really is from the left, you can tell. He just sees through much of the hypocricy, but more importantly, the rhetoric which has prevented the left from ever gaining real influence.
This is another perfect example of how the left loses sight of the forest from the trees. Simply, the left is unable to see the big picture - which is why the right has been able to advance its issues. The right sees the mechanics driving the issues - the right, comprised generally of more successful, entrepreneurial people, asks why?
The left sees results, the images on TV and reacts. They simply fail to balance evils.
Just my take - I am by no means advocating a position, but it is clear that Capitalism is advancing. This is because we've been able to sell our side better than the left. We really understand the issues, what drives them, why they occur and balance the good with the bad.
MyBrainIsOnFire
6 years ago
you're an idiot
sorry dude can't help it - it's so brutal that it diminishes us all. Hey and I eat meat.
This hunt does not create a civil society but a cruel one - you know I'm certain it's environmentally better to use slaves than gas-guzzling tractors, shall we go back to that?
Glavin is a typical believer in a cruel god who sees nothing wrong in brutalizing defenseless creatures because after all, his god says everything on this earth is under his brutal domain.
Oh and over-fishing trawlers (domestic anfd foreign) killed the cod stocks perhaps they should pay for re-training/early retirement of those folks out of a job.
Let's kill and kill and kill because we do not have jobs - a perfect union position. Way to go Glavin, way to go. Tell me again how big labour is different from big business?
BC Mary
6 years ago
No, cappy ...
You've been able to sell your "side better than the left" not because you understand the issues better ... but because Big Capitalism owns big media, the means of producing and the means of selling that particular cash-oriented view.
This morning, Vancouver Sun and Victoria Times Colonist had insufferable editorials declaring that Betty K's 10-month jail sentence is exactly what she deserves. Because why? Because, says big media, "WE set the legislation to get the society WE want ... therefore all must obey."
This, at the very moment when two outrageous pieces of legislation are before the B.C. Legislature (TILMA and a revision of the Public Inquiries Act) clearly intended to suppress the society we live in.
Capitalism
6 years ago
The way I see it
This is a Newfoundland decision - not a Canadian. This is an age-old tradition and a part of their economy.
We are perfectly happy to let Saddam torture and oppress his women and citizens, yet we aren't ok with seal-hunting. Back to the hypocricy here. They are cute little buggers, but think of the benefits, not only to the economy, but ensuring they don't overpopulate.
I remember a few years back, the BC government killed a bunch of wolves. It was gut-wrenching. I have a dog, I love animals!! That being said, they were eating everything else and this was necessary. The wolves were overpopulating.
Beyond this, we have enough ripping our country apart. Quebec, Ontario and the less fortunate want continual handouts from Alberta - yet they want to control the production of their oil, emissions, etc. We have Quebec ready to separate if we don't meet every one of their demands and subsidize their overblown social spending.
We have BC totally and utterly neglected. There are unity issues at stake here, economic issues and environmental/habitat issues.
Open your eyes lefties and look beyond the cute little seal.
Capitalism
6 years ago
BC Mary
Thanks for your comment. There are left papers, right papers and papers in between. I agree that Canwest tends to lean to the right, but the Globe has me irate with its leftie babblings.
I do disagree with you entirely on Betty K. - though I am willing to listen. What do you propose we do? Allow her to continually disrupt the public and "spit" on the courts and judges who ask her to uphold the law?? She's not a violent criminal, but this lady clearly has no respect for the law. She refused to pay a fine, refused to perform community service - what does this say to us as a society if we allow this kind of behaviour and reckless disregard for the law say??
She has cost our province millions and she won't stop!
As far as TILMA - tell me what is wrong? It really only impacts professionals and the technical workforce. Please explain to me how this hurts us - in fact, I only see big benefits - as does most of the business community.
As far as the public inquiries - I couldn't care one way or the other.
MyBrainIsOnFire
6 years ago
Betty k
yeah I was aghast at the sentence until I was informed of her unrepentant lawlessness.
Look, I'm no believer in blindly obeying the law, but even with civil disobedience at some point you have to say yes judge and mean it.
Even if you are on the side of angels.
We have a big problem across Canada with unaccountable governments both left and right and that frustration is driving a lot of the outrage against her just sentence, imho.
kl
6 years ago
Betty K
Betty was given ten months because she stands in the way of unrelenting capitalism. The dude who broke into my car walks away from court time and time again because he actually contributes to the capitalist system. Of course the Sun and Province would editorialize she got what she deserved.
"Capitalism is indeed organized crime, and we are all its victims." Refused
Capitalism
6 years ago
BettyK
Got 10 months for contempt of court - not for disobedience. She wouldn't listen to the judge, wouldn't pay the fine, wouldn't do community service. In fact, this is exactly what she wanted. She is now seen as a martyr by her pathetic following and has garnered all sorts of media attention.
apathysux
6 years ago
I actually agree with Terry...
..on this one. (And I am actually from the West coast and have seen with my own eyes the damage done to salmon stocks by the seal population over here, who eat only the stomachs and then toss the rest away over and over again in a very short period of time.) Perhaps not all the points he made, but definitely the one with regards the misinformation fed to the public by large environmentalist groups. For example, pups are NOT killed by the legal seal hunt. That is environmentalist propaganda.
Also, seal meat is probably the healthiest meat there is. It is almost pure protein and the seal oil is one of the best supplements for many ailments, from high blood pressure to balancing the insulin in diabetics to dermatalogical problems. There's a very good reason why the Inuit have been eating them for thousands of years.
The key should be balance. When one species is allowed to overpopulate, it puts other species in jeopardy. Period.
Mismanagement of the various fisheries can be placed directly at the feet of DFO. Fishermen want sustainablity....'m not even gonna get started on that issue.
Just suffice it to say that the key is balance in all things.
MyBrainIsOnFire
6 years ago
Cappy's right on Betty
it's time to take off the ideolgical blinders folks.
apathysux
6 years ago
Ugghhhh...Capitalism
Just when I was agreeing with you on your points regarding the seal hunt, you had to go and reply to BC Mary about Betty K.
While I cannot condone her apparent unrepentant lawlessness, I admire her stand against the increasingly inconsiderate decisions by the capitalist system. Those who stand against these increasingly stupid decisions are not pathetic but are looking out for even YOUR future welfare.
Not to mention, I, too , am tired of RCMP officers who harass the person who made the call about the theives breaking into the house next door, asking the householder who is standing in his OWN yard about the smell of alcohol on his breath, while the theives next door finish rifling through the house and head out the kitchen window. (True story by the way.) And the system that allows these theives to do the same thing over and over and over again. Ridiculous!
MyBrainIsOnFire
6 years ago
oh yeah we have probs with policing priorties
that an end to prohibition would fix
MyBrainIsOnFire
6 years ago
anyone going to WISE hall tonight?
Ian Gregson from the Green Party and Ryan Fletcher are organizing a free party to celebrate the release of the Five Ring Circus. It will be at the WISE hall. Doors open at 7:30pm. Wednesday March 7th. Lots of the heroes who starred in the documentary will be attending and speaking at this event.
Band lineup: The Wind Whistles, Brent Rheult, Mr M and the All Nighters and Lily Come Down. For more information about this party please visit
www.2010watch.com.
Right to Bear
6 years ago
...danced this dance before...
Good comments MyBrainIsOnFire. Spot on.
Bluenose said: For the sealers that you "respect" (har-de-har-har-HAR), it's a tradition, not a travesty.
I lived out there for some time dude, and I love the Martine people, and appreciate their struggles. It isn't right. But I believe they have deserve a higher value as a human being than what the Dept. of Fisheries has set up for these fisherman as a way to justify their EI. Personally, I would rather pay these people to NOT be involved in the seal hunt and then give them EI, but this "exception" cannot be done is "spose. NO, I think this killing for a make-work project is an atrocity towards these people, and Bluenose dude, define "Tradition". This seal slaughter is NOT about "Tradition" but about justification in an attempt to appease a corrupt system promoting a corrupt program within our corrupt government... But HEY, let me think about it, and I will get back to ya Bluenose. By the way dude, we have danced this dance before...
Peace,
Bear
Capitalism
6 years ago
Apathy
Though I've never protested, I have nothing against it - well I do, but it is lawful.
I ask you, what should be done? You tell me? You can admire anybody's stance you choose. However, I want to hear what you think we should do. Answer A or B.
(A) Put her in Jail for 10 months because she won't stop, pay a fine or perform community service.
(B) Allow her to continue distrubting our affairs. In the meantime, telling society it is ok to choose which laws to obey.
Personally, I agree with the Libs decision. That being said, I believe in decriminalization of marijauna. I remember back in the day, there was the DaKine shop on Commercial. Though, I agreed that they weren't hurting anybody, there were clearly disrespecting the law. I believe one day, shops like DaKine should be allowed to exist. However, at this moment they are unlawful. Period. It is ok to smoke the odd doobie in your basement, but the moment you start flaunting it publicly - you are sending a message - and not the right one.
I'm tired of this civil disobedience argument. She's a lunatic, plain and simple. I've seen her on TV. She's an angry, ranting, raving lunatic. How dare you lefties compare her to MLK Jr., Rosa Parks, etc.
So - I ask you apathysux - what should we do? I can't think of any other options??
MyBrainIsOnFire
6 years ago
thanks bear
peace out
apathysux
6 years ago
Hardly a Rosa Parks...
...funny , I would not have made that analogy. I guess my entire issue is that the time should fit the crime.
My ex-husband received 90 days house arrest and 3 years probation for trying to kill me. The charge was aggravated assault, he couldn't be charged with attempted murder because it was my word against his. Nvermind the photos of the choke marks around my neck and the fact that I could not speak properly for more than six months.
I find it very disheartening that this is how the system works. Not paying her fines, as with any other unpaid debt put a lein on her assets. Don't put her in jail. How's that for a fair solution.
What I admired was the stand all those on Eagleridge Bluff made. It's is good to make noise that will be heard for these type of situations. Just like the various efforts made by First Nations. That is what I support.
Capitalism
6 years ago
I agree but I don't
You make a good point, they could forfeit some of her assets. Though, she really didn't want this. I'm not sure how big the fine actually was???
The bottom line is that Contempt of Court is very serious. These are not politicians, they uphold the law. There is no room in our society to have people deciding which laws should be applicable, and which ones should not.
She had more than her fair warning. This is little more than an angry retired lady looking for purpose in her life, and something to do. Fine! Don't hold the public ransom...
Capitalism
6 years ago
apathysux
Furthermore - I'm sorry for what you've been through. I agree, the justice system is broken. Though, just because your ex-husband deserved far more, doesn't mean she deserved less.
Unfortunately, you are right. The legal system rewards those who lie, cheat and steal - and have the money to defend themselves. On the flip side, it punishes those people who tell the truth and take responsibility.
The bottom line is that an example had to be made. Truth be told, it is your "leftie" people preventing us from putting forth harsher (and mandatory) sentences for convicted felons (no we're not talking shoplifters) - felons.
There have been plenty of Conservatives (including the late Chuck Cadman), and some Liberals who have spent their political career trying to crack down on crime. It is this laissez faire, don't send Betty to jail attitude, which is indicative of our society.
apathysux
6 years ago
MyBrainIsOnFire...
...an end to which prohibition would that be? Just curious.
I totally understand the frustration that is fueling the outrage at her sentence. it would appear that is the reason why it outrages me. I live in a community where the same thieves commit B&E's over and over again. 48 this past two weeks alone and we are a small community. Under 1500 people for sure. The thieves are known and yet there seems to be no way short of a well-deserved physical beating, of stopping them.
As an addendum to my last post re; ex-husband. Another friend of mine rec'd one year house arrest for accidentally hitting someone with his car. It is suspected that this person purposely walked out infront of the car while very high. (He committed suicide not long after the sentencing.) It was well known in the community that he was a heavy drug user and his family is one of those 'untouchable' types. This kind of unfairness continues to outrage me.
This veers from the topic quite a bit...
so to get back on topic ... directed to Right to Bear.
One cannot argue with your stance as it does not allow room for those who do not feel the way you do. Many people especially in rural areas depend on hunting wildlife for their family's welfare, to supplement their groceries, etc. If all animals are sentient beings then in order for your stance to remain without hypocrisy, do not be found squashing any bugs, for are they not sentient beings also, or do only mammals count??? How about fish? or chickens? or mice? or cows? etc. etc. it is not in my opinion a balanced view.
Chris H
6 years ago
Capitalism
"I'm tired of this civil disobedience argument. She's a lunatic, plain and simple. I've seen her on TV. She's an angry, ranting, raving lunatic."
Thanks for lowering the debate with name-calling. It says more about you than her.
"In the meantime, telling society it is ok to choose which laws to obey."
You should obey the ones that make sense to you. I don't see too many people obeying the law driving down Knight street. You will have to accept the consequences of your actions. However, it is a principle of law that the "punishment should fit the crime."
"How dare you lefties compare her to MLK Jr., Rosa Parks, etc."
They broke the law too. The law isn't a right and wrong thing, as Bill Good would make you believe. Look what happened during the Morgentaler trials. Juries refused to convict even when it was very evident that he had broken the law. The jurors had every right to ignore the law to let justice prevail.
There is a women in Saudi Arabia that was in a car with a man outside her family. She got pulled out of car and was gang raped by 7 men. What happened? She's been sentenced to 90 lashes for breaking the law and being outside with a male who isn't part of her family. The rapists got between 10 months and 5 years in prison. What do you think about that law?
The law is fluid and changes over time. Perhaps 50 years from now, if the planet is suffering like some environmentalists claim it will be, Betty K will be remembered as a hero.
The point is that many people think that Betty K's sentence does not fit her crime. I have yet to see her do something that puts others in danger.
Chris H
6 years ago
Do you live in the US?
"The bottom line is that an example had to be made. Truth be told, it is your "leftie" people preventing us from putting forth harsher (and mandatory) sentences for convicted felons (no we're not talking shoplifters) - felons."
Perhaps you should take a course on the Canadian Criminal Justice System so that you can better understand what you are debating. Felony is an American term. There is no such thing in Canada. Go pick up the Canadian Criminal Code. Learn something.
Skywalker
6 years ago
BC Mary is right
As much as you try Capitalism, BC Mary still has a better handle on what ails this society. The corporate media no longer reports all the news. They select news, inject their opinions in any story and screen political opinion that does not suit their agenda. Then people like Capitalism think that because the media reflects their views they must be endowed with superior reasoning skills. The media is bought and paid for. Even community media is not immune from this corporate influence. The joke is that they even have a useless watchdog board run by, get this, editors who are beholden to the same corporate entities. Free speech only applies to those who own the media and possible the visitors to the Tyee.
Capitalism
6 years ago
Chris H
I sure spend a lot of time in the US. In fact, I even file a tax return there. Though, no I do not live in the US. I live in Canada, where I am a primary resident.
We do a lot of business with the US. I acknowledge the slip. Didn't realize it was an american term. Must be too much Fox News!!
Right to Bear
6 years ago
apathysux said: Quote:This
apathysux said:
Look apathysux, I am not against hunting for food whatsoever. Unless one chooses to be Vegetarian, this would be the most fair and humane means of acquiring animal protein and still maintain respect and gratitude towards Mother Earth and the animal that you eat. The commercial industry is brutal, but I will leave that thorn in my side alone for now. I am from rural Southern Alberta…I know. Basically, anything to do with "killing" animals other than for food, I do not support. ie trophy hunting, seal hunting, wolf hunting ("vermin" reduction), bear killing, animal testing, and so on are, imo, a wound on the spirit and morality of our species, so indeed apathysux, I am opposed to these acts. It is my view that taking a life is a serious act and should be considered as such, and in the case of the seal slaughter, clearly, it is not. The slaughter is unnecessary to human survival, and it is truthfully all about money. A very corrupt industry it is. If it is money people need, it is money they should get, but NOT at the cost of lives...surely that is not hard for a person to understand, is it? I hope this clears up my view, being as you asked. :-)
On the issue of Betty K...I think you are on track, and I appreciate, more than you know, your struggles towards your clarity of thought on this issue. Indeed there is, such as in your personal situation, deplorable crimes that have recieved much less consideration than what happened to Betty K. It truly is unbelievable to me. She spoke freely, and her voice was taken away. This act was inconceivable in a democratic society. I am appalled by the injustice here, and I want justice on this matter. Anyways, thanks for your comments on this issue apathysux.
Peace,
Bear
Bluenose
6 years ago
... danced the deadly dance of Shiva before ...
Right to Bear wrote:
The Martine people? Are they still part of the Abh empire? Seikai no Monshou!
Newfoundland's commercial seal hunt dates from the early 1700s: it is the hunters themselves who maintain that the hunt is a tradition for their families. Is it a legitimate tradition? Maybe yes ... maybe no. But given the centrality of the seal hunt to Inuit and Newfoundland culture, economics, and social relations, I think it is a bit simplistic to characterize it as merely a justification for a corrupt system. It is much more complex than that.
Yes, it looks barbaric, but it seems no more barbaric than the slaughter of cattle, hogs, sheep, chickens, etc. The eating of meat necessitates that someone kill the animal one is eating. Meat is meat, life is life, and death is death. Our society has sentimentalized birth and sanitized death, but death is almost always bloody and painful. The modern business of animal slaughter is much more appalling than what takes place on the ice floes off Newfoundland, which is miniscule in comparison. It's like the puritanical fervour directed against smoking (tobacco, not marijuana); it's a false panacea for all our ills, and a terrific distraction from everything else.
Frank
6 years ago
Glavin's "Dissent"
I think we should replace Terry Glavin with Jon Ferry or Mikey Campbell. The fact that Glavin is not a left-winger is best illustrated by our good friend Cappy saying he agrees with all of his articles.
When all the right-wingers love ya and the left-wingers laugh at ya then at some point you have to drop the charade of calling yourself a leftie and just go work for Can-West.
At least with Mikey or Jon we'd have writers who know where they stand on the issues and where that puts them in the political spectrum instead of the confused rants of this guy.
apathysux
6 years ago
Right to bear...
...thank you for your clarification and your support/agreement re: the Betty K. thing.
I am with Bluenose on this one tho. At least to the extent that the seal hunt, how it currently exists, is a more humane manner of slaughtering animals for food (it is for food and sustenance, does not matter that it is commercial) than how cows, hogs, and chickens are mass produced and then slaughtered for use. Not to mention, given loads of antibiotics, growth hormones, etc, etc.
My perspective is the same as from the viewpoint of the commerical fisheries on the West Coast. They are against fishfarms for obvious reasons and ones that have been explored extensively on the Tyee, against sportfishing at least in the manner it is currently regulated(or NOT regulated) because of the extremely high mortality rate, and against DFO's continuous mismanagement and favortism to sports fishing. Thus, if the seal hunt is a sustainable, commercial fishery, for lack of a better term, that has been going n for hundred's of years and does it's best to not waste what is caught, then I have no problem with it.
I do have a problem with highly paid celebrities who have nothing better to do, getting their pictures taken to back an environmentalist cause that has been grossly misrepresented and has used false information to feed the fury.
Right to Bear
6 years ago
"Tradition" is not a good enough reason...
Frank, as always, excellent comments and clarity on the Glavin article. A righty he is bud, no doubt.
Bluenose: "Tradition" is never a justification for unnecessary cruelty ie. Makah whale hunt. Perhaps, long before the seal slaughter was supported by corruption and promoting an artificially enhanced market, these people likely ate, and used much of the seal as a means for their personal and family’s survival. The numbers they killed then was much smaller, but today, it is clearly an unnecessary slaughter of these animals and in massive proportions, and being as you live there BN, you know this. Why do you argue it? Do you not wish for something better for these\your people too?? Would you want your own child involved in the seal hunt?
Peace,
Bear
Frank
6 years ago
In fact...
Hey Cap, considering your Tommy Douglas impersonation on healthcare after your bill arrived from New Orleans, I truly believe you are probably closer ideologically to me than Glavin is so why don't you ask the Tyee if you can take over the "Dissent" column?
We can rename Glavin's column, "The Conservative Corner" :-) With of course a link to his own blog where he can make vicious attacks on anyone questioning his views.
Capitalism
6 years ago
Frank
That's not a Tommy Douglas impersonation. It was a willingness to concede with the left. I never said Canada was good. I said Canada is bad, the US is bad.
As far as Glavin. He is a leftie. However, he is the type of leftie you can appreciate!! He is merely expressing his opinions that the left has meandered so far off the track, that their voice is undermined.
He is right. You're better than most - actually you are probably equal to most. Most of the fanatical lefties on this board are probably G West signing in as a different handle....
That being said, I believe he (Glavin) speaks the truth. The left picks the wrong battles and loses. The left has to be less rigid. You can listen to Glavin and change - or continue to let us wipe you out as your voice becomes less and less credible.
Unfortunately, your spokespeople are Jack Layton and a politcally charged Al Gore! I watch an episode of the Nature of Things and I'm far more impressed than when I listen to Layton up there harping about guns, ATM fees and global warming - when you can tell he knows nothing about any.
His views are much different than mine. Trust me.
Frank
6 years ago
Okay...
Why's he a leftie Cap? On what do you think he's wrong about?
You say your vies are different, I sincerely want to know just where you disagree with him.
I know you're not an NDP fan etc but neither is Glavin.
Bluenose
6 years ago
Right to Bear
Right to Bear wrote:
I argue it because I have no patience for the hypocrisy that allows people to spread hatred by labeling hunters who shoot seals as barbaric and inhumane.
I would have no objections to it. I am not sentimental about the killing of seals. There are other fish to fry. That's all I have to say about it.
Right to Bear
6 years ago
Bluenose
Bluenose said:
I never called them as such Bluenose, so please do not suggest that I did. I have stated quite the opposite to you relative to the character of these people...
Peace,
Bear
poindexter
6 years ago
Club 'em boys
What the heck is this article doing on this website? It's way too rationale and sensible. Just wait till the regular Tyee editor gets back from the Olympics protest or visiting Betty in jail or whatever he's doing and it will be replaced with some shining piece of journalism about how Bush is really using the new daylight savings time to drag Canada into Iraq or something.
Anyways, I tried seal meat once, a neufie guy brought it into the office. It wasn't bad actually.
Anyone who has been on a boat in coastal BC and has tried salmon fishing only to reel in a chewed head instead of the whole fish knows there are so many of the bloody things plaguing our waters that we could use a clubbing or two around here. Perhaps along the lines of like in the '60's where the gov't offered 5 bucks a nose...
Chris H
6 years ago
And your spokespeople are ...
"Unfortunately, your spokespeople are Jack Layton and a politcally charged Al Gore!"
And yours are President Bush and Ann Coulter? The left and right spectrums are much bigger than any two individuals. Your attempt at labelling everyone does nothing to forward the debate. In the words of John Stewart, "Can you please stop ... you're hurting us."
Frank
6 years ago
And another...
Ah, poindexter, glad you could join us. I'll ask you the same question, have you ever disagreed with Glavin?
And its a wonder there were fish still in the ocean before seal hunters arrived isn't it?
clubofrome
6 years ago
Peak Fish
I think it was David Suzuki who once said it's the height of arrogance to believe we can manage nature. While he was speaking about forestry, it applies equally to fisheries. Loss of diversity and keystone species in all ecosystems will lead to commercial and eventually species extinction. Agriculture, tree farms and fish farms are not my idea of managing nature. These are resource extractions and depending on what's left in the oceans for food fish seems to be driving what's on the dinner plate. Seals live in the ocean. Those addicted to sea food would be wise to clip the recipe above for seal flipper pie. I see no difference between this hunt or any rape of the oceans, and using numbers to justify what is an allowable harvest is another mistake in thinking we are managing natures resources. Management is supposed to start at the top with a vision. Within that vision there would be sound method. To steal a line from Apocalypse Now, "I don't see any method at all."
apathysux
6 years ago
...daylight savings time...
what is up with that?!? why does Bush get to pick when? and WHY is Canada going along with it???
poindexter
6 years ago
Terry Glavin for Editor!!
Yes I was just looking over some of his past articles - I like what I see - he tells it like it is which is usually something the left can't handle.
I've got some catch up reading to do, and maybe a reason to start visiting the Tyee more again (hope that doesn't get you canned Terry).
Frank
6 years ago
Thanks
Thanks poindexter, that tells me all I need to know.
poindexter
6 years ago
apathysux, who cares why
apathysux, who cares why Bush gets to pick or why we go with it - all that matters is it will be light until 7 on Sunday - woooohoooo. Now if only we can get Bush to make it rain less here....
apathysux
6 years ago
Poindexter... I care...
... I am tired of watching our govt. give away our country bit by little bit. Every concession, no matter how small pisses me off!!
Ah well...bullies always get theirs in the end and so will Bush and his FTW gang.
Right to Bear
6 years ago
Apathysux, and clubofrome...
apathysux said:
We do split deeply on this one apathysux but I appreciate the opportunity to visit our differences. Thanks.
I thought I would offer this however...We ALL have a "sphere of influence" that we are responsible to. This is no different than what the "celebrity" has as well. I find it acceptable to promote within ones “spheres of influence” good ideas. For the most part, these “celebs” are simply doing that. Maybe, maybe at times there is ulterior motives, but myself, if it makes sense, I will accept\or not the message regardless of who’s promoting it. I believe many of these "celebrity’s" are deeply concerned and committed to helping and promoting good things, and I say FAIR ENOUGH :-) Personally, I appreciate their efforts...
Again, Peace to you apathysux :-)
Welcome here clubofrome :-) Good comments once again.
club said:
Truth cannot be more clear than that. Thanks bro.
Bear
clubofrome
6 years ago
Happy Recovery...
Still typing with your toes?
Right to Bear
6 years ago
too funny....
rotflmao :-D club, and no, finally not. Healing up well thanks for asking bro.
mopled
6 years ago
back to Betty K.
Tem months is a long time out of a 78 year old's life, but I'm sure Betty K. will use the time wisely. She will probably radicalize not a few inmates.
I think the length of the sentence will actually turn out to be counter productive from the establishment view
Truman Green
6 years ago
Good job, RTB
You either feel the brutality of the seal hunt or you don't. I think Danielle Egan's article on 'mirror neurons'is pretty relevant here. Either you have the kind of brain that causes you pain to see these baby animals slaughtered so that somebody can have a fur coat--or you don't.
Glavin doesn't. He was similarly gung ho about the Makahs blowing up that whale a few years ago.
For him it's only about managing the environment for the benefit of human beings.
For others--myself included--it's about hoping that our human legacy will be about moderating the brutality in nature with empathy.
Right to Bear
6 years ago
mopled said: Quote:I think
mopled said:
Absolutely mopled. Betty K has an unyeilding warrior spirit indeed...
Bear
clubofrome
6 years ago
Betty K?
Try the far left hand side of the site...
apathysux
6 years ago
Wouldnt it be nice...
...if we could just say no to all the slaughter and had the means as a human race to survive without some of these 'necessary evils'.
I agree without a doubt that fisheries have the world over been over-fished and horribly exploited, the seal hunt included. However, these fisheries have been the lifes' blood for MANY peoples for thousands of years. Commercialism, colonialism and capitalism are behind the damage done to ALL species. Unfortunately, we are not realistically in a position where we can just step back and let nature take it's course without it negatively impacting a very large portion of the human population. I am not yet on the band wagon that equates animal life with human life.
BTW, even David Suzuki eats seafood, I know because he has been to many Haida potlatches and has partaken of their traditional foods.
Anyway, my point is only that, well nature cannot be managed, success through bans, cycling harvests, etc. have helped many species to repopulate. Thus, the hunting & fishing regulations. Not perfect but at least its something that deals with the realities and seals are not endangered population wise in any way.
Frank
6 years ago
Yep
Echoing clubofrome, Truman adds,
Bang on guys.
apathysux
6 years ago
...for chrissakes!!
..usually I am right arm in arm with the so-called left on this site and their views but for the last time...the killing of the cute little white pups was outlawed 20 years ago!!! And that picture would bother anyone with 1/2 a heart, me included. However, that is NOT what happens in the current yearly seal hunt. That is ENVIRONMENTALIST PROPAGANDA. And this is a well known fact, not just something spouted by Glavin, of whom I am not a fan.
Right to Bear
6 years ago
Hey, my friend .. :-)
Truman Green said: "For him it's only about managing the environment for the benefit of human beings.
For others--myself included--it's about hoping that our human legacy will be about moderating the brutality in nature with empathy"
Hey Truman...!!
Well said Truman and you said a lot in this single sweep. Intention motivates action, but the basic recognition of "wrong" or "injustices" has got to be a layer or two deeper than that. And in this deeper layer is the thing that separates the people on issues such as this one perhaps.
We've been here before bud, and it is good to share the page with a brother... Thanks for steppin' in... :-)
Peace Truman,
Bear
Frank
6 years ago
Apathysux
Sorry guy but regulations are the problem when the ocean is being vacuumed within the bounds of the current laws.
I'm all for fishing but the environment has to be protected for its own sake, not just ours.
And as for Glavin, hey, if he wants to swim with the right-wing school, by all means do so but I don't write a column pretending I'm a right-winger so I don't see why he should be able to write one posing as a lefty.
Doesn't mean he has to agree with me on everything, but one thing would be nice.
clubofrome
6 years ago
The future is _______ ?
Thanks for the history lesson, those reminders are important. We need to remember where we came from and plan where we are going. That takes vision and leadership, and it doesn't exist here on earth. Painting an even broader picture won't help, but there are limits to growth. Believe me if human population hits 12 billion it's canned seal on the shelves where the tuna and salmon used to be. The attempts at solving these bigger issues start in our own communities. Forget global, act local. Sustainability means trying to understand if we can maintain the infrastructures we have now without relying on unchecked economic growth to pay for these health, transportation and education systems we all debate about here. Slow down and prove to me that we can maintain what we have now. Developing more property and increasing taxes doesn't mean progress. It's compounding our basic mistakes. But first how do even make that a mainstream message, when success today for most people means building an 6,000 sq. ft. house with all the trimmings? Flying anywhere anytime for recreation. Finally balancing the accounts of those hoarding the wealth stolen from the backs of future generations and mother nature.
This is just a giant puzzle, an almost unsolvable rubicks cube. Fascinating to see the evolution and predict the next crises we will surely face. If anyone wants to save what will be left of society as we know it, the time to act is now. Dividing the issues into left and right is another juvenile flaw made by people unaware of the dangers we are courting. But right now they are driving the bus.
apathysux
6 years ago
...I have a problem...
with the attitude that the difference of opinion on this issue (i should have just moved on to another column) means that those who do not have an issue with it are somehow a lower class of humans and not as good as those who have a 'deeper layer' of the recognition of injustice and wrongs.
I wish those who have taken this cause up would spend as much time engrossed in the injustices that humans perpetrate against other humans every single day!
Our recognition of basic wrongs or injustices go far deeper than you think and are, imo, applied to deeper, and more important human issues. We want sustainability of ALL species. If we truly thought animals were only there for our benefit sustainability would not be issue we would just move on to the next species. I know that when we (my family members, friends, etc.) have to take an animals life to sustain our families we do so with reverance and respect for that life. Talk to a seal hunter, explore ALL sides of the issue...then get back to me.
As I said earlier, one cannot argue this issue with people who equate animal life with human life.
biscotti
6 years ago
an excellent film from NFLD & NFB
http://www.nfb.ca/webextension/ancestors/film.html
clubofrome
6 years ago
Refer to Denis Leary...
That bit he did, "No Cure for Cancer" was right on when he talked about the cute little animals. Tuna/ Dolphins: Stop fishing for Tuna it's killing the Dolphins! What about the Tuna? Fuck the Tuna they taste good. Mabe we should just line them all up... He interviews the animals: What are you? I'm an Otter. What do you do? I do cute little human things with my paws.... OK, you're free to go. Next! What are you? I'm, a cow I do..... GET IN THE TRUCK! But I'm an animal, I have rights! You're a leather jacket, a base ball glove, get in the truck!
See picture at the top, "cuter than cod."
apathysux
6 years ago
clubofrome....
I absolutely agree with everything you just wrote. I watch the foreign sports fisherman harvest from Haida Gwaii waters ALL summer long. I can assure you that the damage they do is far greater than the damage done by the local commercial fishery. They are having a very heavy impact on salmon populations and catch and release is damaging spawning and reproduction.
I absolutely agree we have to act locally. And I agree we have to act now. Difficult to do when the current capitalist system fights you all the way.
Frank, I also agree that fishing regulations are a huge problem. Better than NO regulations like it used to be, tho. Landbased hunting regulations seem to be more in line with what is truly happening. imo, DFO doesn't know their A** from a hole in the gorund, and I have witnessed firsthand their lack of desire to listen to those who do know what is happening.
It would be nice to have a perfect system, but we don't. so we have to fight for change and we all know that ain't gonna be easy.
Frank
6 years ago
Apathysux
Actually, when you're as shallow as me its no problem being equally "deep" on a whole range of issues.
But as for humans, we're not endangered. Our population is growing. Therefore everything we consume is not sustainable unless and until we cure our own "sustainability" problem.
Everybody claims the harvest of this species or that one is sustainable yet I see no evidence of that. The amount of life in the oceans is constantly being reduced and the laws allow it. Glavin is simply saying that's fine.
Right to Bear
6 years ago
apathysux...
apathysux said:
Perhaps this is in the deeper layer... I don't know apathysux. If so, fair enough.
Talking to a seal hunter is a good suggestion, and I have, many of them. As I mentioned earlier apathysux, I live in the Maritimes for a period of time and loved it. These are good people indeed. IMO, however, there is more important things to consider here than jobs and money and us...the Earth and all those living on her are dieing and we need to get serious about this issue before it is too late, if it is not already. That is all I am saying my friend...
Primarily, the Earth needs us to leave her alone so she may heal. We have to learn how to leave smaller footsteps in our wake, don't you think?? ...:-)
Peace apathysux,
Bear
Frank
6 years ago
biscotti
biscotti, are you saying that the Newfies only kill what they eat, be it cod or seals or what have you?
anarcho
6 years ago
It Ain't Necessarily So.
Cappy and Glavin agree, as they do on many things, I am sure. But it isn't a mere left-right thing. It isn't that Glavin has just slid over to the right that allows Cappy to support him. There are conservatives that would not see eye to eye with our new lovers. The real division is this. Glavin and Cappy stand for the powerful, stand for the status quo, and a whole lot of other people, true, mainly on the left, but not exclusively so, do not.
Yeoman
6 years ago
A few relevant facts
1. The spike on the hackapic is for self-rescue on the ice - not lethality.
2. Anyone that has ever skinned an animal would know that its almost impossible to do to a live critter unless it is restrained somehow.
3. To make palatable meat you have to spill blood.
4. Take off the fur and face and meat is meat.
Chris H
6 years ago
Yeoman
1. Why not kill the seal with a bullet to the head? To expensive? Walking around with a spiked club makes the hunt look really humane.
2. A conscious animal would be difficult to skin for sure, but an unconscious one is easy. Ask any vet.
3. Sure. But you don't have to beat the animal over the head to kill it.
4. Really? Ever tried bear? Pretty disgusting. For that matter, maybe you wouldn't have a problem with cannibalism.
DaneN
6 years ago
No science backing up claim of "sustainability" of seal hunt
This rant is ridiculous. There is plenty of science out there that backs up the claim that the seal hunt is "unsustainable".
A 2006 study by Professor Stephen Harris from the School of Biological Sciences at Bristol University asserts that the Canadian management regime for harp seals does not apply a precautionary principle and threatens the survival of seal populations. The report, entitled “Harp seal populations in the northwestern Atlantic: modelling populations with uncertainty” is available at http://www.boycott-canada.com/assets/docs/Harp%20seal%20modelling%20report%20final%20final.doc.
Another scientific report released last month by the International Fund for Animal Welfare reveals global warming is resulting in dramatically reduced ice coverage off the east coast of Canada. This environmental trend is negatively impacting the harp seal population which requires sea ice for pupping and nursing its young.
In regards to Terry's statements that the seal hunt is "clean" and "humane," in 2001, a report by an independent team of respected veterinarians concluded that governmental regulations were neither being respected nor enforced, and that the seal hunt failed to comply with Canada's basic animal welfare regulations. The veterinarians found 42% of the seals they examined were likely skinned while alive and conscious. They concluded the hunt causes ‘considerable and unacceptable suffering’ to the seals. The full report is at http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/dfiles/file_95.pdf
In 2006, Dr. Mary Richardson, a Canadian expert in humane slaughter and past Chair of the Animal Welfare Committee of the Ontario Veterinary Medical Association, challenged the government's allegation that the 2005 seal slaughter of more than 300,000 seal pups was conducted "humanely." After reviewing the video evidence gathered by animal protection organizations, she stated that given the sheer number of seals killed, the method of killing, the short time in which the seals are killed (the bulk of the killing takes place in a matter of days), and the extreme conditions under which the killing takes place, it would be impossible for the sealers or the Department of Fisheries and Oceans (DFO) to ensure the hunt was humane.
I don't put any faith in the study published in the Canadian Veterinary Medical Association's journal claiming that “only” 2% of the seals are killed inhumanely. How much faith can be put in such a survey where those carrying out the killing knew they were being observed? In addition, the chief vet who conducted the study works for the Fur Institute of Canada and is hardly an unbiased source.
And if people abroad are boycotting Canadian seafood, I think that's a great thing, given that so few of our fisheries are truly "sustainable", particulary the snow crab fishery which is one of the main targets of the boycott.
woody
6 years ago
BEING DEROGATORY TOWARDS A PEOPLE
FRANK
Psst, I heard that "woody" is from the
--------- and speaks perfect ---------
THIS COMMENT HAS BEEN DELETED FOR DEROGATORY TOWARDS A PEOPLE. Frank, YOU ARE ON NOTICE TO KEEP YOUR COMMENTS SUBSTANTIVE AND FREE FROM SUCH DEROGATORY REMARKS. -- TYEE EDITOR
Capitalism
6 years ago
Anarcho
You sound entirely like G West. I'm not so certain you aren't just another one of his identities. Until i'm convinced you're not, I am not going to respond to you.
Garth (which undoubtedly isn't his real name) wasted an incredible amount of my time forcing me to defend myself against what I perceived to be two separate people. I refuse to let it happen again!
biscotti
6 years ago
Frank & film
I'm saying that "My Ancestors Were Rogues and Murderers" by Anne Troake is an excellent film about the seal hunt & traditional Newfoundland outport culture.
apathysux
6 years ago
Right to Bear...
... I absolutely agree that our footstep on this plant needs to be smaller. And I agree that it is going to take great sacrifice as to how we make a living to support our families. However, we still NEED to make a living.
I guess I wouldn't consider Newfoundland as a place where the environmental footprint is huge and drastically needs to change. I would start, say in the equatorial rainforests where millions of species of plants and wildlife are already extinct or on their way to being so. Where capitalism has drastically and negatively impacted the people who live there. That, howvever, may not be a place where the endorsement of a well-known celebrity will have an impact.
Peace to you and here's to lightening our footsteps in our own backyards. :-)
clubofrome
6 years ago
Sounds like something from the neocon playbook...
Funny how they are only dirty tricks when the NDP get caught. Like bingo gate. The press were on that story like a dog on a bone. But sell BC Rail from under the carpet, or give away our resources to foriegn business interests with no regard for the future, well that's called the new BC, open for business! Capitalism has never had it so good! Rape, theft, arson, murder and more rape, all their favorite passtimes legalized. Keep your hands off my stack! Sick, perverted, twisted creatures who regularly sell their own family members for profit.... but they find out someone posted under two names? They howl and scream like caged monkeys at a peanut convention. They cease to function. Funniest display I've seen on the Tyee yet. Witness maestros self destruction....
apathysux
6 years ago
check out...
...biscotti's link for a look at the other side of the issue, namely Newfoundlanders.
It is always good to see both sides and check out the stories of those who are directly affected by the issue.
Frank
6 years ago
biscotti
I read the link you sent and I have no problem with Newfies or there way of life. Its a proud record. And who can forget the record of their regiment in the First.
However, just because a hard working people had a certain way of life that can't give them carte blanche to continue it into the modern world.
Times change, just ask any native on a reserve. Newfoundland has to change too.
bob the cat
6 years ago
Record in the First
Frank
Was the Newfoundland Regiment even around long enough in " The First" to compile much of a record? Weren`t they pretty much completely slaughtered in a very short amount of time?
I see Terry Glavin is backin the hunt. Well that is certainly very interesting..I guess..you know Frank..I hate to give myself away here or cast suspicion on myself as possibly being a doppelganger of G.West but ..and you`ll have to pardon my ignorance here..but who is Terry Glavin?
Frank
6 years ago
bob
I thought being bravely slaughtered over a piece of mud was the good record :-) If not, then half of Scotland's patriotic songs aren't really patriotic :-)
I don't know who Terry Glavin is, I guess he's a book and essay writer based on what I saw on his blog site.
Frank
6 years ago
Glavin
And I should add, the length of Terry's resume isn't my problem. Its claiming to be a lefty and thereby purporting to write as a lefty critiquing his own side when I see no evidence that he's a lefty at all is my problem. Attacking the Left from the Right is something Ferry or M.Campbell could do as well or better.
I think I could write a better critique of the Left without becoming the poster boy of the Right or losing my Lefty credentials.
bob the cat
6 years ago
Frank
Maybe he`s taken out a second mortgage or something ...maybe the mortgage is finally paid off who knows
I guess its that ole "follow the money" thing.
woody
6 years ago
pussy family
bob the cat,
I’ve been meaning to ask you, is a bob the cat along the same blood lines as the pole cat or the two tone pussy with a fluid drive?Just curious.
Right to Bear
6 years ago
Yes indeed, lighten our footsteps...
apathysux said: "guess I wouldn't consider Newfoundland as a place where the environmental footprint is huge and drastically needs to change. I would start, say in the equatorial rainforests where millions of species of plants and wildlife are already extinct or on their way to being so".
Hi apathysux,
You take these "little" earth abuses, add them up, and our impact is unbelievable and massive. I totally agree the rainforest issue is enormous and disturbing. But as well, in the Artic where the little ecosystems are also perfect and they are very important to those who live within them. Is the massive alteration of the seals numbers in these areas affecting the potential for survival of the seals or other living organisms? How much damage are we really doing to this area? Science can help with this question. DaneM,s post addresses the question of the sustainablity of the Canadian seal "hunt", and it is worth checking out for sure...
Human rights issues, rainforest issues, massive slaughter of the top predators such as wolves and seals, selling out of our resources to foreigners, indeed, all are important, and none more so than the other, as together they add up to a Sick Earth... No issue is bigger than this or smaller than that as they all need to be addressed, and soon…
As you said so well apathysux, we indeed need to lighten our footsteps, and this includes within our own back yard. Thanks friend... :-)
Peace apathysux.
Bear
Right to Bear
6 years ago
a strand...
Man did not weave the web of life;
he is merely a strand in it.
Whatever he does to the web,
he does to himself.
Cheif Seattle
Yeoman
6 years ago
Chris H
Why not a bullet? - same effect as a club (massive and sudden cranial hemorage) and its alot safer in a group situation. I can just see the protests of "pups shot execution style to the back of the head" if this were the case.
Whether it is a club, bullet, knife, or captive bolt gun its all the same so long as it is done with skill and care.
I have had bear and so long as it has a herbivorous diet it is quite tasty.
maestro
6 years ago
club-sky
We have a "go- away" present for you ( NOTE: not to be confused with a going- away present, that's voluntary ).
It's a pre-need re-incarnation .
Obviously someone at re-incarnation head office made a mistake and allowed you the ability to type in your current manifestation (?) .
We have now made the " return to the natural order " re-incarnation application . You will be turned back into a seal pup the next time you log onto the TYEE. Sorry, but it was the best we could do.
The New York Yankees entire batting practice roster will be scheduled guests on the ice flows.
PS Try to get their autographs before, well,....you know...
Chris H
6 years ago
Yeoman
"Why not a bullet? - same effect as a club (massive and sudden cranial hemorage)"
Ok, would you rather have a bullet to the head or a club? A bullet will pretty much kill the animal instantly. I rarely kill any fish I catch with the first wack. Clubbing animals to death is simply not an effective way to kill humanely. If you could prove to me that clubbing seals kills them as quickly, on average, as a bullet to the head, I'll concede. Otherwise, I'll have to view the people that club them as desperate, poor maritimers who can't afford the bullet to conduct a humane hunt.
And, I'm sorry, but if you think bear meat is tasty, then your taste buds have long ago died. Yuck!
Fergus Elliott
6 years ago
Samefully Canadian
This Terry Glavin fellow is what?Possibly a debunking front man for big business?To attempt to impress us little folk with his ego inflating knowledge of political agreements, endlessly ,is pointless.Its the barbaric method of the kill that is the biggest issue of all Terry.To inflict such pain on any creature ,cute or not,for the sake of "fashionable clothing" is grotesquely inhumane.Animals kill to survive only.Man seems to be the only creature that has an endless list of excuses for terminating the life of any living thing he chooses to.The most popular justification seems to be "tradition".Or more aptly put,the "tradition" of making money.Whether it be government(Canadian) or private enterprise ,its always about the money ,first and foremost.Compare theannual seal hunt on "The Canadian Killing Fields" to the dog and cat fur industry in China.When Paul Mccartney confronted the Chinese Ambassador to the U.S. about the horrendous treatment and live skinnings of dogs and cats for their fur in China ,this was the response he got."You cant blame us for this ,its the demand for these furs by North Americans and Europeans that fuels the industry. Its not fair to blame China"[PETA.org] The main point once again completely ignored .Its the horrendous treatment and painful sadistic live skinnings[PETA video] that are the issue.Whether it be Canadian seals ,or dogs and cats in China (and most of Asia),they are killed for the fashion industry and for profit.To attempt to justify this practice as essential,is shamefull, and and an embaressment to all mankind.Do your children know that the pom poms ,and tiny strips of fur on their clothing are most likely tortured dogs and cats?When someone tells you that the pulverized baby seal jacket your wearing looks nice ,do you actually have the shallowness to reply with "thank you".This practice of killing animals for their fur cannot be justified and must stop.If not you,then who? if not now,then when?
Fergus Elliott
6 years ago
Fergus Elliott
Just to be clear. My article above was intended to be titled "Shamefully Canadian"
woody
6 years ago
Just Shame
Fergus Elliott to bad you never put up a similar argument on behalf of those poor farm workers, who got themselves injured and killed while going to work, in order for you to have food on your table, but then they didn't have nice furry coats, or shiny little droopy eyes did they.
ethix view
6 years ago
An Enviro's Case for the Seal Hunt
Terry Glavin fails to make a case for the commercial east-coast seal hunt. He uses poor logic, manipulates facts, and engages in linguistic game-playing to suit his agenda.
His most egregious leap of logic is to equate sustainable practice with ethical practice. Just because a resource can be exploited does not mean that it ought to be. Sentient creatures are not analogous to inanimate matter, yet terms such as “resource” and “harvest” are used for both and deliberately intended to distance us from the reality of the slaughter.
ICES/NAFO data (Appendix 1) at http://www.ifaw.org/ifaw/dimages/custom/2_Publications/Seals/sealsandsealing2005.pdf substantiate that in 2000 through 2004, 93% to 97% of the harp seals killed were "pups", yet DFO’s "Myths and Realities" brochure implies in its "Myth #1" that all harp seal pups are called whitecoats and that it is illegal to kill pups, period. However, ragged jackets are pups whose white fur begins to moult and turn grey at 12 to 14 days and beaters are pups whose fur is fully moulted at approximately 18-20 days. Both are the desired targets. Mr. Glavin conveniently omits the fact that as soon as whitecoats begin to lose some of their white fur at 12 to 14 days, they are fair game for commercial slaughter.
I am at a loss to understand how anyone can honestly and objectively label “humane” the clubbing, shooting, or hakapiking of defenseless marine mammals whose sentience parallels that of the family dog or cat. No one can deny that the slaughter is brutal. To support brutality for the sake of fashion and profit, as Terry Glavin does, is ethically indefensible. Defending the seal slaughter by comparing it to conventional abattoir practices falls short as well. The violence involved in the exploitation of chickens, turkeys, cattle, and pigs is equally indefensible.
The respect, empathy, and compassion with which each of us, as protectors of our environment, acts toward others, including non-human animals, is a measure of our humanity. In that respect, Terry Glavin’s embittered rant also fails miserably.
Elliot
6 years ago
well done mr. glavin. 'bout
well done mr. glavin. 'bout time somebody told it like it is on this website.
zalm
6 years ago
Big noise, no forehead
Somebody needs to have a word with Mr. Glavin about the company he keeps on this site.
Or rather, the company that's keeping him... Can't raise the level of debate above a smelly fart.
clubofrome
6 years ago
Blog rage
Pull it over maestro. As Truman says, your little hints at violence just under the surface are obvious threats and symtoms of your personality disorders now exposed. Call it Blog rage, whatever, but you have it. Warning someone to be careful then your reference to having me clubbed by baseball bats, while barely holding your temper in check. Then seemingly to calm down, you change personality's again by going onto another story and writing the part of the family guy again. Split personalitys for sure, probably something deeper too...
maestro
6 years ago
Club-sky
Diagnose you, yourself , and thou.
Unfortunately, Truman is suffering from a wee - bit of paranoia with the 9/11 conspiracy gig. He's a very bright guy....he'll recover.
That's what unfortunately happens when one associates with TYEE types like you Club-sky and your other peers in the Leftie love-in.
Threat? ...no Lefties when the going gets tough...they run around with pants around their ankles. My sincere wish is that you are as far away as possible...at least one light year away.
Now back to SeaWorld and see if you can snap a dead fish out of your trainer's hand....ok flipper?
clubofrome
6 years ago
Hmmm... tough one.
You show us illusions of grandeur, more obsessive compulsive behavior... strange combo kid... I'll go with acute dementia. You been getting enough tuna in your diet?
maestro
6 years ago
Flipper-sky
School's out, go home, and play some politically correct video games. Remember to wear your Hockey Helmet, forget the jockstrap...enjoy the graphics.
Remember to quote to yourself the psychology texts you stole from the Sally Ann thrift store.
clubofrome
6 years ago
Difficult decision
I feel I cannot, in good conscience continue to mock you. It's obvious you can't defend yourself and you're becoming more and more incoherent. I shall miss our little sparring sessions, but I can now live with out guilt, knowing that I tried to help you see the light. The way of the Dolphin as it were. We can only lead by example and some of the Big Guy's flock will be lost to the wolves. It's all a part of natures plan. I sincerely hope that the lambs stop screaming in your dreams...
Best Regards,
Clubo Frome
maestro
6 years ago
Club-sky surrenders: Yawwnnnn
Conscience?
What a laugh!
That implies you are human(?)
Its more a primal urge called the survival instinct. Remember Dude..YOU started this a few weeks back...with YOUR so-called contest, Y=O=U dropped the gauntlet. The EVIDENCE is continually PILING UP as to what is really going on.
Your surrender is acknowledged if YOU either buzz -off or clean out your own nest first. Its your ilk and your TYEE cult leader that are screwing up this TYEE forum.
Being liars, shallow and ignorant on many issues and being overall deceitful scammers is obviously OK in YOUR camp, but not for many of the rest of us.
Quit playing the same BS "L"ie game many of have seen before. It's all too predictable, and so is the methodology to return to the status-quo. Maybe you'll learn this when you get into an Intermediate Grade after your 100th attempt, maybe not. There is always "hope". If not, " bring -it -on" , that applies to YOU and YOUR ilk.
Have a good one!
Right to Bear
6 years ago
Seal hunt opinion...
Hey Maestro,
What\why do you think of the seal hunt off the East Coast of Canada dude?? That is what this thread is about bud... I am curious :-)
Peace,
Bear
maestro
6 years ago
right to bear
Straight up....
I have followed this issue from the sidelines for years...like the majority.
Was a might concerned given what I was seeing in media clips. Later much more concerned with what I wasn't seeing .
(NOTE: I vivdly recall GreenPeace's genesis during the Amchitka nuclear blast protest, not sure if you were around back then).
While seals'(or any animal's ) harvest is not pleasant..and the Public's concern began to rise...the overall animal right's issue began to take another turn.
On a Canadian documentary,they followed the major Animal Rights protest EXECUTIVES movements . One Exec. was media ambushed with a "Sir we understand you earn $ 100,000 year..and have use of a private jet in your global junkets.....(this was the 1980's).He was a might pissed off, but did not deny it and took off.
Then other -called "volunteer and non- profit groups" started to have their leaderships "salaries made public". Seemed enviro groups were the "new" nouveau riche'
I volunteer, and I don't want a thin dime or even gas money.
These professional non- profit groups (NOTE: it is not an oxymoron tax -wise, etc. )to me simply P-I-M-P the victims...and also get the public all lathered up worse than any fire and brimstone televangelist. Mob mentality often ensues.
In my philosophy, one cannot pick and choose the victims...ie ALL are living things. Vegetarians should eat intravenously...aren't plants living things? I remember the cynics who said that seal pups all furry and big eyes are sure cute, why is no-one saving the slimy slithery snakes...PREJUDICED ENVIROS ?
What about Pine Beetles...they are just doing natures work, why isn't Bridget Bardot chaining herself to a Pine Beetle?.
The seal hunt , (and other similar issues), is a HUGE issue, much bigger than the "boxed set version" the often hypocrite professional $$$$ enviros package it as.
More later..
Right to Bear
6 years ago
Still curious Maestro...
Thanks for your response Maestro,
You said
Maestro, one doesn't have to "join" these groups if the trust isn't there. What about acting out of a sense of personal responsibility on behalf of injustices?? I don't have a problem with enviro groups generally, but my personal responsibility is demonstrated via voice, letters and so on... It has nothing to do with these groups necessarily. Anyways, just a point.
You said:
I guess I have to ask at this point, do you see any difference in an animal suffering to a wilting plant with no water? How about humans as to other species? Do we have more\less\ or the same value here on earth?? Should we have more\less\ or the same "rights" here on earth as the other living creatures?
Did you read my other posts bud??
Anyways, answer these questions if you care to engage, as I am curious :-)
Peace,
Bear
takeaction
6 years ago
SEAL HUNT PROTEST MARCH 15TH
SEAL HUNT PROTEST
Date: Thursday, March 15
Location: Vancouver Art Gallery (Robson & Hornby)
Meeting Time: Between 11:30 - 11:45 am
This is a part of a nation wide initiative by the World Society for the Protection of Animals (WSPA). Activists from various cities in Canada will take the streets in protest on March 15th.
For more info about the seal hunt, please visit
www.protectseals.org
www.seashepherd.org
Hope to see you there!
Terry Glavin please crowl back into your hole and keep on writing for the brain dead.
maestro
6 years ago
Right to bear: Further to the discussion
Yep, read them.
Chief Seattle,... good quote, I think most of us agree.
Etc.
Etc.
Seems like we are now longer re-living the 1960s...we are now into the 1980's and the same retro - enviro. ie Seal hunt concerns.
Not sure about Mother Nature on life support.......nature was pushed back...now I see nature coming back and big time. Ducks are all over...walking in residential areas . Saw a huge flock of snow geese in a residential neighbourhood right near YVR. 2 pt deer buck in my back yard...racoons , coyotes...eagles ,hawks galore. Seen the spawning salmon jumping in the river....Up country, near Fiat Lux's CRD turf...which we have visited for years bear all over, a sow bear with 2 cubs in a residential area that bothered no one .Deer? I have never seen so plentiful in decades...they are almost getting tame.
Not for me to go to or get into the SEAL hunt...not my area....Maybe I should hear THEIR side first. I could build a case that the Maritimers are also living entities being abused...the Gov't has screwed up their lives and livelihood so badly , seemed like a plan to impoverish them and hence control them like a caged animal. A while back I posted the pathetic pogey program that was outlined in a recent TV documentary.
PS Saw a big dew worm on Artifical Turf this morning at my kids soccer game. how the hell it got there I don't know..but I simply DIDN'T ignore it and I took the effort put in back on real grass. I don't own pets, not becuase I don't love animals, but because I don't think its natural...they belong in nature.
I'm not a vegetarian, but I eat far more non meat meals than meat.
Hope that fills in some more for ya. Enjoy your stay at the top of the Food Chain it could be worse. As Cheif Seattle implies , acknowledge one's own thread in the overall interconnected and integrated web ...and the responsibility that goes with it....but its not a dead web, its a very dynamic one.
Right to Bear
6 years ago
Maestro...
Hey again Maestro,
Thanks again for you thoughts bud...very informing.
You said: "I could build a case that the Maritimers are also living entities being abused...the Gov't has screwed up their lives and livelihood so badly , seemed like a plan to impoverish them and hence control them like a caged animal".
Exactly... I think I explained that myself Maestro. After a murderous, bloody, rampage of grandiose proportions, does one not think many of these people would suffer post-traumatic syndrome at the very least. I say guaranteed. Imagine, all this carnage to appease a sick EI program in order they may raise their families...pathetic. The government and people defending the seal hunt cannot possibly respect these people as to insist they involve themselves in such a cruel and unnecessary make-work program as a way to get paid. And guess what, that means WE the people are the ones footing the bill on the seal slaughter. No sense and No respect at all. I myself would pay them to NOT kill seals...Yeah, use the people’s money this way until something better comes up, don't you think??
Anyways Maestro, you obviously are a "soft-touch", so think about this perhaps. There is NO good in the Seal Slaughter, for you, me, the fisherman, and of course the seals...So why is it continuing. There is an artificial market pumped up in a desperate attempt to dispense of these young hides...Totally unnecessary. We are meant to be a more compassionate species than this hunt promotes methinks. Do you not agree that we and our children would be better off without the immorality of this "hunt"...?? I am sure the seals would agree... Thoughts??
Just some thoughts...
Peace,
Bear
maestro
6 years ago
Hallelujah!!! ... What day is tomorrow ???
Hallelujah :
A slightly less than right - of - center person who actually makes sense.
However,Right -to - Bear given we have identified you as a truly rare species...we'll have to build you a protected RTB sanctuary.
What'll make ya happy ?...write the ticket, dude!!! and we'll pass the hat.
BTW....we can expand this discussion later why I have concerns about them imported / exotic L_ftie varmints species. (It all ties in).
Peace Bro...
Right to Bear
6 years ago
Monday...
Maestro said: "A slightly less than right - of - center person who actually makes sense.
Hey bud, I appreciate the "santuary status" to be sure, but fyi, I am little further "left" than you think... But Say La Vi eh.....
Have a good day,
Bear
maestro
6 years ago
"Almost monday"...not yet.
(Always tap the inner Rightie ...it will come out eventually, its a Law of the Universe.)
But I do appreciate the R.T.B. vs M. discussions.
PS Let me know where to drop off the 6 -Pack to get the sanctuary started. That plus Cable is about all one needs to rough - it and get back to Nature .
Have a good one.
Stump
6 years ago
Ruining the forum
I thought it was the posters who epitomize the Peter Principle as it corresponds to intelligible posts and the right-whingers who spread the lies they believe to counteract the truth they hate.
Silly me.
clubofrome
6 years ago
King maestro Peter the III
I guess I'm just not strong enough. Watching maestro fall apart on line is like a bad horror film you can't stop watching. What was the Stephen King mad dog movie? That's what he reminds me of. Pretends to be man's best friend, then goes rabid! You just can't stop watching the disaster. You know eventually he will crash and burn, in some sort of "gone postal" scenario. In the mean time I think another promotion is due. Who's the boss of the King? Oh ya! The Queen!! Queen maestro. Total incompetance level achieved.
woody
6 years ago
mighty WHITE of you
La Village La West said to, La Woody you've played a leading role in bringing about a certain ''intelligence'' that surely would not be as obvious as it is at this time..
Why Thank You La Village La West, that’s mighty WHITE of you.
Got my risduals cheque?
woody
6 years ago
The Quebec Connection
GWest+Village= Garf
maestro
6 years ago
Oh Geez
Oh Geez
I thought Club-sky was gone-sky.
Now Stump-sky joins in.
1/2 of a Barber Shop quartet singing the old Leftie 1/2 -assed harmony.
Hey Club-sky,is this a picture of you at your Leftie Grad ceremony?
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/certogrouperwin/detail?.dir=/62df&.dnm=e66e.jpg&src=ph
Were you able to find a dolphin in there ? Like X FILES "the truth is out there", which is why Lefties are often lost on a back door road. Maybe check in amongst the corn.
Stump
6 years ago
Part of the problem
is people under the impression they're witty. Please just concentrate on succint-ness and clarity. Those are the areas I think you need to work on (having abandoned all hope you'll ever adopt more traditional forms of punctuation).
Happily however, the classic guide "Elements of Style" is available on-line and free if you ever take a hankering to adopting understandable punctuation usage.
http://www.bartleby.com/141/
woody
6 years ago
maestro, please!!
maestro, please!! give a guy a bit of a warning of those informative sites, its been a hour since I looked at ‘it’and Im still laughing, I was thinking though, is it possible that its garf researching his novel for information in there, also, I wonder if he came across Village in there. This would also be a good insertion on the [Have You been Infected Site}-------- (To funny)
maestro
6 years ago
Woody:
Seriously...
Do you have some good evidence that " Village " is also G.WEST.(or G WEST is also " Village " )?
( Maybe we'll compare notes on who else G WEST has likley been posting (ie ImPOSToring) as. Evidence is gathering more and more ).
Let me know.
maestro
6 years ago
Stump: "Here come da judge , here comes the judge..
Stump aka Alci:
Why don't you become a judge on AMERICAN IDOL...or maybe wait till the GONG SHOW resurrects ?
Maybe host it on the road in Jihad /Al Qaeda affected countries...
Maybe Osama will come out of his cave hooked up to his dialysis machine and sing " America the Beautiful" or " God (Allah) Bless America ".
I challenge you to not let him pass onto the next round , at least to the Semi- Finals.
Happy Judging!
wiley
6 years ago
hakapik history lesson
Some Canadian history for newbies:
On March 20th, 1967, John Diefenbaker tried to get the government of Canada to shut down the seal hunt. He said “I tried to get the Government to realize how wrong it is to refuse the banning of the baby seal slaughter. I think animal lovers and leading members of the S.P.C.A. will be surprised, if not shocked to learn that all who want to end the killings have been consigned by the Government, through the Minister, to the ranks of what he describes as “irresponsible people.”
Diefenbaker further said, “I shall continue to demand a ban, regardless of the contemptuous way in which so humanitarian a request has been treated and received by the Minister of Fisheries speaking for the Government and its supporters.”
In 1969, Canadian Fisheries Minister Jack Davis rose in the House of Commons to announce he was looking for ways to abolish the slaughter of seal pups in the Gulf of St. Lawrence . He was looking into ways to make the entire Gulf a sanctuary for seals.
“There’s no denying the seal hunt is a grim business. It is gruesome and appalling.” Said Jack Davis. He failed in his efforts to create the sanctuary.
Right to Bear
6 years ago
Interesting history lesson wiley...thanks.
I have been involved in actively protesting the seal-hunt via letters, education, and so on, since I was 7 years old. I was very "mad" at Trudeau (dates me) and wrote this poem at 8 years old. Hope you 'all don't mind if I share...:-)
I wish that he would take off his suit, and get on the ice-flows with his rubber boots,
He says that live skinning isn't true and we've lied, but we know he just thinking of the economic side,
As like those high cheek bones those low morals are set, as he wouldn't feed shit to a starving dog that he met,
So Trudeau, I say to you, get your ass out on the flows and you will see it's all true...
Anywho... wiley, thanks. I was interested in hearing about Diefenbaker and Jack Davis noble efforts to end this immoral slaughter. To bad it didn't work, but there is still tomorrow...
Peace wiley,
Bear
Stump
6 years ago
pseudonyms
Wrong again. Sorry.
maestro
6 years ago
One more guess SVP
One more guess:
" Alci " aka " Stump "
G West
6 years ago
Still wrong
As always.
Do you have a comprehension as well as a composition problem?
clubofrome
6 years ago
Dragon Slayed
It was a hard case to crack because of multiple personalities, but it's clear maestro has serious issues. He continues to alternate between personalities. On one thread, usually education related he plays intellectual, and right next door he is the anti-left anti-christ. The commonality is that both are usually incoherent. The odd point he makes that is relevant, is easily compared to, even the clock is right twice a day. At best it is unintelligible. At worst, it is a temper tantrum bordering on violence. As mentioned on the Blog thread, many people will not read or ignore certain individuals because they have seen the same patterns. I personally don't read Elliot or Woody and certainly not maestro anymore. Once you've solved the case, the challenge is over. maestro is dangerous and unstable. He thinks he is in control, but appears to be close to physical violence at times. Typical bully, once you call him out he'll stand behind the first available skirt calling you names. I would hope that this poster soon tires of being ignored and just goes away.
Right to Bear
6 years ago
Undenying truth.....
Hey Club... It has been an interesting thread indeed my friend. Thanks for your input and spot on compassionate posts...maybe on this issue one day the truth will be undeniable... I hope so, as then there can be good change.
Meanwhile, HEY, typing with 2 hands again... :-)
Peace Club,
Bear
clubofrome
6 years ago
Bear is right.
You must bear left on the road to truth...
You are easily the most compassionate blogger anywhere. Even the most annoying trolls get respect from you. Congratulations on finding and maitaining your balance and inner peace. What's your secret? Maybe the bullies and I that hang around here can learn something.