MLA's salary

Let's face it, MLA's are nothing more than fence posts with hair, they do nothing. The real power lies with the Premier and is minions. MLA's do not have the backbone to bring the Premier to account, so what passes for democracy in BC (and in Canada) is a sort of limited dictatorship, where the Premier holds almost absolute power.

Elections every 2 to 5 years are merely twaddle as if the 'tweedle dee's' get voted out, the 'tweedle dum's' get elected and another 2 to 5 years of dictatorship.

A revolution is coming, slowly but it is coming all the same and when the populace believe that our current electoral and governing process is a joke (about 33%+ of the population) a revolution takes place, as it always has done in the past.

Great Article

Another insightful view of life in BC. Very, very newsworthy. And nowhere to be found in our media monopoly. Thank you Tyee and Will Martin from the bottom of my heart. Keep up the great work. This story is a real testament to the trend for less governance, and more power being shifted to private corporations. Very disturbing. And you can see its consequences everywhere you look in civil society. This trend does not bode well for the rest of us.

Parlimentary committee work

Is "session" time the best measurement of their "work"? Don't they have to do parlimentary committee time too?

It sure came across as big scam if they don't work anymore than the "session" time?

Nice Graph:

Nice graph:

Looks like the NDP started the "legislative slacker" trend towards the end of their last regime in the early 2000's.

Davie Boy's 1972 -1975 NDP regime is interesting....looks like an Uber " Poli- Viagra driven" quasi - phallic agenda. Their overall legacy thus looks like a major phallic symbol,.... how apropos...

Even ol' Davie Boy was quoted on this NDP legacy prior to accepting his bathwater sip of the Order of Canada. He admitted they had a lot of agendas to plough through , as even they, the 1970's B.C. NDP , knew their luck wouldn't hold out for more than one term.

Regardless, the entire graph posted can have many views extrapolated from it. The BC NDP has rebounded in the last Provincial election, yet the graph shows that around 2001 when the NDP had only (2) MLA's , the Gov't had far more legislative sittings than when the NDP made a serious comeback a few years later .

In other words, the more NDP opposition, the less BC legislative sittings.

Gee, is there a pattern here ? .....and why the Left is increasingly sayonora ?
Solution: Deduct the NDP's pay...all they are doing is " seducing the K-9".

Nice Graph:

Nice graph:

Looks like the NDP started the "legislative slacker" trend towards the end of their last regime in the early 2000's.

Davie Boy's 1972 -1975 NDP regime is interesting....looks like an Uber " Poli- Viagra driven" quasi - phallic agenda. Their overall legacy thus looks like a major phallic symbol,.... how apropos...

Even ol' Davie Boy was quoted on this NDP legacy prior to accepting his bathwater sip of the Order of Canada. He admitted they had a lot of agendas to plough through , as even they, the 1970's B.C. NDP , knew their luck wouldn't hold out for more than one term.

Regardless, the entire graph posted can have many views extrapolated from it. The BC NDP has rebounded in the last Provincial election, yet the graph shows that around 2001 when the NDP had only (2) MLA's , the Gov't had far more legislative sittings than when the NDP made a serious comeback a few years later .

In other words, the more NDP opposition, the less BC legislative sittings.

Gee, is there a pattern here ? .....and why the Left is increasingly sayonora ?
Solution: Deduct the NDP's pay...all they are doing is " seducing the K-9".

Thanks, Will & David.

Thanks for this story, Will & David.

Memo for maestro: Take a holiday. You've worked so hard. Those "Good" and "Bad" labels are wearing so very thin ... and never did help much. Go.

Sessions

The story deals with pay and the lack of sessions (working days) in the legislature. But what about the absenteeism of some MLA's? By this I mean members who do not attend the sittings and don't have a valid reason. ie: sickness family death, etc.
They also get paid extra for sitting on committees. How much absenteeism is there in these sittings?
Maybe someone should add a clause to the raises that deals with absentees. And while they are at it change their pay schedule from salary to hourly.
But I guess that would be far too much to ask. Still I will propose it to my MLA. Charlie are you reading this?

BC Mary

Rope burns healed up yet ?
Surprised you haven't been subpoenaed yet.

PS Have a nice day.

Sessions

The story deals with pay and the lack of sessions (working days) in the legislature. But what about the absenteeism of some MLA's? By this I mean members who do not attend the sittings and don't have a valid reason. ie: sickness family death, etc.
They also get paid extra for sitting on committees. How much absenteeism is there in these sittings?
Maybe someone should add a clause to the raises that deals with absentees. And while they are at it change their pay schedule from salary to hourly.
But I guess that would be far too much to ask. Still I will propose it to my MLA. Charlie are you reading this?

Somethig screwy

The double entry was due to a "page not found". Probably just my old computer.

The notion that an MLA is

The notion that an MLA is only "working" when he or she is in the legislature exposes some serious shortcomings in the author's understanding of what an MLA does.

My father was a BC MLA for 17 years, and for most of that time, he was absent from my life, leaving the house before I awoke and coming home after I was asleep (if he was able to come home at all).

Most MLAs on both sides of the aisle work tirelessly in their constituencies and on committies and panels when they're not in the House. Those that represent large or remote ridings spend an inordinate amount of time traveling. I understand that political cynics think of a travel budget as a perk, but believe me, after 17 years of flying to remote outposts in bad weather, you'd want to hang it up too.

Now in my thirties, I work less, take more time off and make more than my father ever did as an MLA. BCers should be satisfied with the quality of (most of) their representation for what they paid. Remember: many of them are independently wealthy from their work in the private sector, while for others, the MLA salary is their only source of income.

The real issue with BC politicians is not that they get paid for their work, but that they don't always properly represent the interests of their constituents. If you're not feeling represented, begrudging your member's wage isn't going to gain you any influence. Neither will the cynical apathy to which most of the electorate is resigned.

Put some effort into getting your money's worth. If you need help, go to your (probably under-funded and understaffed) constituency office and ask for it. If you don't get it, make your displeasure known at the next election.

That independent wealth

Oeanda:
I do have a problem with the fact that so many independently wealthy people get into politics - and it's hardly a coincidence that the ones who come from that demographic seem to move rather seamlessly from the public to the private sector and often back again. It's hard not to conclude that the rewards they get, and give, their friends in private business don't have a lot more to do with why many of them get into politics in the first place.

I'm not sure how to address this. One method would be to forbid any politician, or former politician, from any other work or consulting position in the private sector for a minimum of five years after they leave the house. I'd be willing to pay them a pension to do volunteer work, to go back to university or to do something else worthwhile with their lives during that period - but as long as people can move in and out of sinecures the way they do now - as both Gary Collins and Glen Clark did, well, I'm not too sympathetic to their current campaign for more money.

Another small codicil - no more corporate or union donations to any political party. The BC Liberals connections to business are just too deep - dump the slush funds; appoint a truly independent commission - with no lawyers from establishment law firms (also well-connected in Liberal circles) preferably from outside the province and I might be convinced a small raise is in order.

By the way oeanda, if the private money purse strings were cut and cut definitively, I suggest you'd find the average MLA's social calendar got freed up pretty quickly. Why do you think everyone wants to bend their ears? The average voter isn’t keeping the average MLA away from her family six nights of the week. And all that schmoozing isn’t actually ‘doing’ the people’s business much of the time. There are also other reasons why this government doesn’t want to appear in the house too – there are a lot of questions they don’t want to answer and would really rather they weren’t even asked. The Campbell government knows very well that familiarity breeds contempt.

Thanks for your thoughts though, it gets one thinking.

Pay the More

Alcibiades and Oeanda raise the point that many MLAs are wealthy before heading into politics. Perhaps part of the problem is that MLAs do not make enough money to encourage a lot of people to go into politics. Chretien increased the wages of MPs to encourage people who are not independently wealthy to go into politics. How do we expect to attract young, energetic, qualified people to the political game when they can make two or three times as much money in the private sector. I am not saying that MLAs should get paid an exorbitant amount, but I do think that the $76,100 that they now make is not enough to attract a lot of people to the field. Public service should be somewhat of a sacrifice, but if we pay a little bit more we allow a lot more people to enter the game without sacrificing their financial future.

I would also like to know what Will McMartin thinks the solution is to the lack of sitting days. Should we have MLAs sitting in Victoria doing essentially nothing? If more sitting days were required I am sure there would be more sitting days. If the province can be run with only 46 sitting days that is great. Having all the MLAs in Victoria costs money. Let them meet for a short time each year, get essential business done then go back to the ridings for other important work.

Alcibiades: "The average

Alcibiades: "The average voter isn’t keeping the average MLA away from her family six nights of the week. And all that schmoozing isn’t actually ‘doing’ the people’s business much of the time."

This is simply not true. Some politicians are friendlier to corporate donors than others, but most members spend most of their time working on constituency issues. That can mean working with everyone from Indian chiefs to welfare mothers to mining company boards. This is a complex society with many disparate interests, all of which have to be addressed. It isn't schmoozing when they're schmoozing with you.

Also, I disagree that the freedom of politicians out of office should be infringed in any way. We learned a lot about Glenn Clark after his fall, but he's now a private citizen with all the rights and privileges of any other. Politicians are human beings, after all.

oeanda

This is just the tyee trying to discredit the Liberals. Whether you are a Liberal or NDP - I give them all credit for their hard work. I would never suggest one of them was lazy.

The Liberals made some pretty drastic policy changes at the beginning of their regime. They said they made these changes for the long term. Things are good in BC - why fix, when it ain't broke?

There are no new bills, no real major policy changes, what on earth are they supposed to be doing in the legislature??

They are wasting time and money (hotel and meals) by staying there...

A -politically

A -politically speaking....

The number of days the Gov't is sitting is one of the best parameters of a Gov't doing what Gov'ts were mandated to do, Ie Representing the Peoples' Best Interests.

This allows for more public dialogue and debate, and what can then also be recorded on BC's Hansard, and thus also be made accessible to the Public.

An effective Opposition can use the Legislative sitting as a platform to make the issues more public that might not be made public otherwise. Effectively, the Legislative sittings are the LIGHT shone on issues "in theory"...especially since many issues will have formal legislation drafted and applied to them.

Otherwise, other mechanisms may be used to keep issues etc. in the DARK.

Local Gov'ts and their elected officials often convene several times a year, often twice monthly.

Yes, MLA's , between legislative sittings , do much work on behalf of their constituents. This may range from token ribbon -cutting appearances,hearing individual constituent concerns,lobby groups etc.

However, how these MLA's constituents' concerns actually trickles upward from the grassroots -to- the -legislative sittings is another discussion.

As the graph in this TYEE topic apparently shows...It's simply becoming a " tow -the -line " mode of Party discipline.

Fixing whats broke

I'l give you just one of their policy changes that are broke.
"WE ARE NOT GOING TO SELL BC RAIL"
So it was sold. (but not the tracks)
So that made it not really a sale. LOL
Now the CN who have no experience in running this railway (it is much more complex than the basically straight tracks across the country) are chalking up accidents at a rate much higher than the old PGE/BC Rail ever did.
I submit that they have increased loads and speed to accomplish this.
It's Broke,fix it. nuff said.

MLAs pay

Will McMartin wrote: And so, let us hope that The Globe and Mail continues to be unaware or unconcerned with public affairs in our Pacific province.

Does Mr. McMartin stand behind that ridiculous statement?

Does he realize there is a difference between an editorial writer in Toronto commenting nationally on an issue and the actual news section of the Globe and Mail, put out by working journalists, 12 of whom are based in Vancouver? Six days a week the Globe puts out a special three-day section devoted entirely to B.C. news, plus a weekly entertainment guide and real estate section devoted to B.C.

Capitalism: see the Tyee's

Capitalism: see the Tyee's report on the correlation between the "success" of a BC government and commodity prices.

Things are good when regulation is eliminated, but it's short-term gain. The forest industry proved that in the 80s.

globe and mail

here in toronto i dont even get the canucks' results in the globe and mail...

MLAs pay

Further to Will McMartin's snide words about the Globe and Mail, and my initial comment.

I wrote "three-day section". Of course, it's a three-page section. Oops. Hehe.

The Globe has also been in the forefront of raising concern over the RCMP "investigations" of the police shootings of Ian Bush and Kevin St. Arnaud. Plus late last year, the Globe did a superb five-part series on the homeless in the Lower Mainland, written by Mark Hume, who writes a terrific weekly column for the paper on B.C. issues one rarely hears about in "those other local newspapers". Etc. Etc.

Maybe I doth protest too much, but these kind of gratuitous cheap shots get tiresome. We're hardly perfect, but the Globe sure as hell covers B.C. news. Anbd we cover it well!

From a member of the Globe's large B.C. Bureau since 1998 (yikes...). GRRRRRRR.

big deal. parliamentary

big deal. parliamentary sessions have become a farce anyway. sniping and sound-bytes.

MLA's lives after politics

oeanda
I don't think I said that former politicians should have to give up their lives forever, and I talked about a publicly financed pension for the 5 year cooling off period. Business puts restrictive covenants on their departing employees all the time, why would you object to the practical suggestion I made?
If you prefer the Gary Collins/ Glen Clark option that's fine with me. I don't.
These guys all make a big deal about the kinds of things they call public service, I just happen to have seen a lot of evidence that their idea of what constitutes public service is not very catholic. Bill Bennett and Gordon Campbell’s recent behavior only underline this.
As to the other matter, politicians’ time, I mean, I'll defer to your experience and only add that I think politicians deserve to have a decent private life that doesn't sacrifice their families for their job.
We need to remember that these people are supposed to be working for ALL of us - not just their constituents or their fellow travelers - whether those folks are union members or Howe Street brokers.
If politicians are dedicating themselves 24/7 to their jobs, the results aren't particularly impressive.
And, despite the carping of the peanut gallery around here, I'm talking about folks on both sides of the ideological fence.
I was not trying to demean your experience. At the same time, we ought not be asking the impossible of anyone. All people, not just the poor or the wealthy deserve a decent chance at happy balanced lives. Even elected people.
Bonne chance.

big deal. Elliot

Just like your Tyee posts, El. A quick dash down the right wing, a wild shot that misses the net by a mile and you're off the ice for the rest of the game.

How does it feel to be on the taxi squad with Ron Erwin and Noleftnutter?

McMartin's missing something

I appreciate as always my good friend Will McMartin's superb analysis and statistical acumen.

And I wholeheartedly agree that the fix is in for an MLA pay increase - could anyone seriously believe Mike de Jong when he said they wouldn't return to the honey pot after the previous fiasco?

Furthermore, Will is right that there should be some ordinary working people and even some non-working folks instead of just elite types on the MLA pay commission.

But Will is a bit mischievious in not talking about the extensive work MLAs do in their constituencies, or on Legislative committees, or the amount of travel required.

I don't know any MLA in my lengthy political experience, NDP, Liberal, Conservative or Social Credit, who didn't work extremely long hours on behalf of their constituency.

So, a fair review should be undertaken but a fair analysis of all that MLAs do is what's needed - McMartin, a former Socred staffer, should well know that there is a lot more work than simply that which takes place in the Legislature.

Lyrics

Garffy, having trouble finding the lyrics to that Bobby McFerron tune?

there is nothing to

there is nothing to legislate as there is no worthwhile opponent. Demanding the Liberals sit in parliament is like asking us to view a beating. That is, the Liberals putting the smackdown to the ndp.

'there is a lot more work

'there is a lot more work than simply that which takes place in the Legislature.' oh my god i'm agreeing with tieleman. they should get a raise. high school principals make more than cabinet ministers and the premier. that's ridiculous.

noleftnutter and elliot too

Where's Ron guys? The problem with you two and him is that you're all trying out for the same position - the three of you contesting for the honour of sitting on the right end of the bench. Nice segue to bring in teachers El. You are so predictable. Maestro can’t even spell the word.

Frank's been suggesting to me that we can just ignore the three of you during the two minutes of ice time you guys get each game anyway...maybe he's right.

I'd actually suggest

That the three of you ought to recruit hyeena/acadian driftwood to your cause boys.

Except he's an American and we know what BCLiberals like Bill Bennett think of them.

It just wouldn't work.

i'd be embarrassed to get as

i'd be embarrassed to get as much 'ice time' as you g. you really need to get a life. and your analogies are very weary.

Greetings to Rod Mickleburgh !

Greetings, Rod ... and stick around, eh?

It's informative and useful to hear someone shriek from behind the headlines. [Here's where you can, if you wish, congratulate me for so often coming to the defense of the media ... "Good, bad, or indifferent, it's all we've got!" is what I say.]

But you know full well that The Globe and Mail publishes a B.C. edition for B.C. only (part of the damn Sports Section, for cryin' out loud!). You know very well that there's no B.C. section in The Globe and Mail being delivered to the doorsteps of the rest of Canada.

And this, I can verify, has an unhappy impact on the nation. My particular interest at this time -- because CanWest won't publish it and The Globe doesn't publish it for their RoC edition -- is the BCRail affair, call it The Legislature Raids, or the Basi-Virk Affair if you wish.

Whatever you call it, Canada's 3rd largest railway was "sold" under dubious circumstances, a provincial Legislature was raided by 32 sergeants of police, arrests were made ... then years slowly passed ... and ... well, the general public is still waiting to find out what happened to B.C.Rail which, mind, the current premier promised would never be sold.

I think it's an issue which should be understood by all Canadians and The Globe and Mail is the only newspaper which could set that standard. But it hasn't.

In fact -- please don't take this unkindly -- The Globe and Mail misguidedly IMO turned one of its journalists loose to write a huge sob story at Christmas about two of the three accused in the B.C. Rail trial. The Globe headline: "There is nothing to these charges" which, in my view, was an outrageously intrusive thing to do regarding a trial of huge public interest which is inching its way into B.C. Supreme Court.

Have you ever heard of such a thing? Have you ever seen The Globe headline another story announcing, on the eve of a trial, their own version of the verdict?

I know our topic here is about how the M.L.A. works in British Columbia. But that's what the B.C. Rail Trial is all about too, i.e., how our system of government works. Which makes it super important.

Well, Rod, because so little was reported in any msm news service, somebody in B.C. started a blog to try to fill that vacuum. Please drop in sometime:

http://bctrialofbasi-virk.blogspot.com/

And keep on coming back here, too. We'd love to talk more. You too, Bill. And, Rod, it was Bill Tieleman who wrote the most column inches about the B.C. Rail affair, remember?

We our losing our democracy

Some of the recent posts suggest there's no reason for our MLA's to assemble and discuss our provincial issues.

Regardless of party affiliation, the Legislature is the place where MLA's stand up and bring up the issues that are important to the people in their riding. If there are no sittings then these issues are not being addressed.

The reason the Liberals are canceling the sittings is so that they can continue their work of selling BC assets to the private sector behind closed doors.

Moosebeer: agreed.

Moosebeer: agreed.

That's no problem El

You don't get any ice time and you're still an embarrassment. Sitting in the stands throwing brickbats at drug users, the poor, the handicapped, single mothers, the halt and the lame, not to mention your favourite target the teachers has pretty much wrecked your reputation for anything but clown work anyway.

G'West ster: atta boy seguay

At least you haven't mixed up the " z " and the " x " on the keyboard (again....like you often did in the past) when you typed out s - e - z....but it came out " s-e-x ".

( By the way "sez" is spelled " s-a-y-s " ).

Of course, I won't mention that this implies the certified use your "Left"ie hand in this " Closed Shop " area of the keyboard ...but whatever your own Right Hand is doing when you are on the TYEE, blessing us humble peons with your plagiarized wisdom, is simply 100 % your " free will " or " FREE Willy " democratic r-i-g-h-t to do as you please.

This , of course, is qualified with the assumption you are not both(i) dyslexic and (ii) ambidextrous at the same time.

PS Maybe time to change " the prescription ", Optical ones ....and any/all others.

you may want to try prozac

you may want to try prozac g. there must be something that can help you chill out. how about a doobie?

Still can't spell it right I see - slow learner eh

Or maybe Frank's right, it's just ADHD.

You must have gone to Elliot's school.

No El, I'm just starting to have a good time

It's so much fun when you guys pull your goalie early.

Gee G West:

No G West you still don't get it....

You are the " George Plimpton meets Barney the Purple Dinosaur " of the TYEE...when you try, you still lose(redundant) , then ya ree -zort ta "sue dough" intelleck -tu -all-izm. Just because you have a spell -checker does not make you an Eyenstine.

I mean, we respect thine preserverance ,at least it builds up the callouses ,and the condescending attitude , but continually peeing into the wind even on a calm day makes us wonder .

PS if you were my Goalie...I'd pull ya during the national anthem and even with a 2 man penalty kill to deal with...

I actually don't need a spell checker maestro

I actually don’t need – and didn’t lobby for - a spell checker, maestro; although I slip up now and again, I try to police my own mistakes - even the ones that are the result of the fact that the z and the x on the qwerty keyboard are side by side.

You might want to try using one though.

As to getting wet because of your own actions, I'd say you’re still drenched to the skin by your little performance on the Charter thread a couple nights ago.

Something to be ‘really’ proud of there.

Others might want to have a look. It's not on the main site anymore but if you go to 'VIEWS' and scan down it is still available. Look for the excellent Anne Cameron comment and then see what comes out of the weeds after that.

One nice thing about Tyee - unless it is removed by an editor - the record of everyone's posts is still there, lying like an indictment in the archives.

Moreover, even if you don’t read maestro’s offerings, the words of Anne Cameron are well worth the time and effort. Enjoy.

GW

You should know that Ron's not my winger. Which GM are you trying to be Garth Snow?

It was pretty sneaky the way

It was pretty sneaky the way a 15 percent pay raise was pushed through in about the same length as question period. Anybody stand up and say" Hey let's actually discuss this?'Of course not. Maybe they do deserve a pay raise of some sort. But let's not forget their pay is indexed. So is my pension,( after 35 years of servie to the Queen and lots of folks don't even get that. They ran out the door last time and it festered for awhile. There is no doubt in my mind that most MLA's work hard keepig themselves elected, and that includes some constituency work. They must have worked really hard together to cook up the raise. Let's see a couple of additional memebrs to the blue ribbon folks Gordy picked. How about a rep from Labour, maybe a single parent with three kids about to get evicted. The list goes on. Woud that happen? of course not. Expect to see a number around13 percent and of course a few more benefits. We used to be told that when the public is getting ansy, go for small ampiunt sof money and as many benefits as we feel we can get away with. and anyone who comapres a MLA to a MP's job is smoking something. The hours are sort of grand as well

Actually G West. Anne

Actually G West.

Anne Cameron's "post" was typical of someone at the TYEE nether regions who didn't follow the discussion and jumped in with a rant of which I then posted a comment stating is one of the top 10 negative one's I have ever read on almost any topic . I mean the dear lady certainly ain't looking in the mirror, or scared to, and where she's coming from is anyones' guess except a kindred spirit. (mild shudder...)

As per usual, you and another usual Tyee suspect jump in almost "on cue " with the old "when did you stop ____ your ____" offense defence...and without even a case.

Is that the best ya got...?

Like I said G West, more literal and figurative blood on you, Anne's et al's and your predecessors hands than many of ours...thus YOU pony up first in the compensation, that would be consistent with your subjective views and " your version of history " .

Why ain't you in the Middle East teaching all sides to sing Koom Bai Ya...How about get Coke to sponsor an Afghani version of the 1970s hit ad "I'd like to teach the world to sing in G West Harmony.." the Al Qaeda will love ya.

Back to the BS " farm " team and keep shovelling ....G ster. When the Zamboni drivers dog gets ill we'll call ya .

Pony up G West , close but no CUBAN cigar....quit freeloadin'....you owe them a lot...

PS Oops the wind is picking up, zip it quick !

Quit picking on Bill Bennet

G. West.

Bill Bennet made a mistake when he got a little mad, used some profanity and did some name calling. He then did the sober and honorable thing by resigning. However, he did not endanger anyone's life or break any laws.

Bill Bennet apparently has more honor in his little finger than his boss, who did not resign when he broke the law and endangered people's lives.

Did Gordo demand Bill's resignation?

Can we say double standard?

Umslopogaas

Oh, I agree completely. My only point about Bennett and his reaction to Americans was to make a satirical analogy with Cappy's hateful remarks about the French. As well as to point out the contradictory fact that lefties are always accused of being anti-American when in this case the man with his trousers around his ankles on that score was another right winger.

The material is actually more clearly delineated - along with Capitalism's initial remarks on the gordo health care conservation thread.- have a look.

The neocons who run this province and the people who support them, and lie about their motives, are so pitifully obvious in their prejudices and attitudes. Just as maestro is hear about the testimony of Anne Cameron on that other thread I mentioned.

Bennett had to resign (Cappy thought he shouldn't) and Gordo should have too. I keep thinking that maybe, around April 15, he will.

errata

Last sentence in penultimate paragraph above should read:

NLN - I forgot about you

There is only one right winger on the team; the three of you stooges are all trying out for the same spot. I thought Gordo was your coach.

Maybe you don't actually have one...it certainly shows.

I'm working on those health care figures for you by the way.

I guess I'll have them ready about the time you finish reading the Romanow Report instead of just skimming over the executive summary.

A little harsh

I don't hate the french. I just don't respect the path they have chosen. They are floundering away, while their European and worldwide counterparts pass them by.

I resent the fact that French Canadians seemingly get so much from Canada, yet talk of separation persists. They are the biggest hoarder of transfer payments - in fact, Alberta is paying for their bloated social programs!

As for Bill Bennett - he's right! What is some American doing, coming to our country and telling us, how we should govern?? He was right to put the guy in his place and shouldn't have resigned.

I'd love to share a few drinks with Mr. Bennett and help him respond to some of his e-mail!!

Enough about Romanow - it is merely one of many perspectives. His report is not the bible of health care delivery. I've read the executive summary and that's all I have time for. There's some interesting ideas, but there a just that, ideas!

DPL - I agree completely

I think that developments on the treaty-negotiating front are coming to a head as well. The giveaways are all going to be bungy-corded to industrial and commercial deals on the side as well - least that's what it looks like to me.

And I heard Gordo making pusillanimous remarks at Mt Currie today. I hope we're all still around when this business comes a cropper in 5 - 10 years time.

How do you think this is all going to end?

I guess you know how closely that firm, Van Fasken Martineau, is tied to everything this government has done since the whole plan of dumping Gordon Wilson was hatched. Including all those hearings before the Utilites Commission.

But of course that couldn't possibly be a conflict of interest.

Makes me long for Ted Hughes's time as commissioner.

Spell Check

I don't!!! Who cares!!! Gavin, your "work" here is never going to be published, though I know you think they are lessons to us right wing folk...

My posts are full of terrible spelling, terrible spelling and fragmented sentenced. I type quick and never preview the comment....

I think everybody gets my gist.

What are you talking about?

Because Martyn Hart came to Canada from the United States and lives and works here in Canada ( I don't care if he's a landed immigrant or a dual citizen or if he's dropped his US citizenship entirely and is now a naturalized Canadian) that sort of attitude from a public servant was irresponsible and stupid. Just like your stupid remark about the French and your equally stupid statement about French Canadians. It’s important to call out and root out hatred and prejudice wherever it rears its ugly head. Bennett at least had the sense to step down.

You should do the same - just leave before you choke on your foot.

Can' t read either, eh Cappy.

That post wasn't meant for you. Unless you and maestro are one and the same. Which would actually be kind of positive if it were true - thereby diminishing the number of people whose nonsense I read on these pages. Two for the price of one so to speak.

I'm glad you're not in public service. The province can't survive many more mental midgets like Bill Bennett.

What was that other phrase he used?

Oh yeah, I remember: "You don't know who your friends are, which makes you dumb."

Now 'that' is a statement YOU could have written.

Globe answers BC Mary

Hey, no problem with your complaint. Go at us over real issues. We may disagree but so what? Will McMartin's snide asides however are another matter.

Tieleman has done well on the raids story, but we were the only mainstream media to cover the interesting saga of Erik Bornmann's problems with the Ontario Law Society, and Gary Mason has written on the fact that Bornmann has not been charged, yet apparently he delivered the money to Basi and Virk.

By the way, despite the B.C. Section, there is still B.C. news in the rest of Canada edition. Look at the front page on Saturday!

Sorry for the promo. Cheers.

Romanow?

Nope, soiled provenance. Facts provided to support the pre-determined outcome. So dated now that even its champions, the Liberals, have moved on. You should too……

It's probably true that mlas

It's probably true that mlas work hard and long hours. But so what? What have they accomplished? Are there less homeless people or more? Is poverty growing or diminishing? Is the environment cleaner or dirtier?

Perhaps mla or mp pay should be based on results. The fact is, mlas are for show. The elite run the show and witness the results.

Send it to the Globe and Mail.

I'd say it's about time they did use those words to describe us.

MLA Pay Raise???

Good visual graphics on the attempt to inflate the salary of MLA's in Victoria for 46 days!!! Well done, Will Mc Martin!

Enough of the testostrone debate, Maestro et al...let's get back on topic of fair wages for a day's work. AND what is the work of an MLA? It is to represent the opinions, concerns and needs of the constituents which he/she represents?

Health Care is a BIG concern as exemplified by 3 recent high level resignations. But "the mother" of all issues is the degradation of the environment. Sustainability of quality air,water and soil to grow food to feed our decendants, locally, let alone world citizens should be a prime focus.
Voters want you legislative people to start thinking out of the box and realize there is opportunity( good money, take note!) to be had with new development for clean energy; particularly here in B.C. We're not talking same old/same old coal production. We're talking getting on with some of the ideas that Arnold S. is promoting down there in California.(I'm not a big fan of his movies, excepting K Cop, but you gotta admit this guy's got enviro smarts !)
Where are the new incentives to invest in the new energy technologies? Why are you government people not debating and passing cutting edge proposal? You should be leaders in innovative ideas to meet this big foot of Canada on the planet's resources that is so heavy at this time.

I know you legislators scope the independent news feeds...so please know that we expect more bang for our buck than what you are giving back from the tax dollars we allot to good and hopefully inspired government.
We want better and newer representation that will work tranparently; that is let's see debate on TV in the legislature for more than 46 days!!!
No, do NOT vote yourselves a raise.

G West = Bill Bennett ?

Holy Cow!

G West, thine rants are on par with Bill Bennett's. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

At least Bill Bennett has a valid excuse...he tries to serve the public interest.

You don't.

You are an apologist for bizarre ideology that the majority of society avoids like the plague...and you simply attempt, and rather poorly, to intellectualize problems and never attempt to discuss r-a-t-i-o-n-a-l solutions. G West = " It's always someone else's fault...starting waaaay baaaaack in history " .

You backtrack and backpeddle and more often than not you barely tread water. Your ass is kicked so many times you must be a glutton for punishment. Maybe one day your trusty ol' Time Machine will get stuck in reverse gear.

At least Bill Bennett has the jam to run for office ....if you think you serve the public's interest...then run for office. I can see ya possibly carrying a few choice areas...then we can separate the Pot from the Kettle and the BS.

G West...try to create a program that accesses the TYEE archives and erases your name from the old posts so as not to identify "the author"...then read the old post and comment.

See ya in about 50 years...you both deserve each other.

NLN

I knew you wouldn't have read it. That's what's so funny about people like you and Bill Bennett, such wonderfully open minds.

I won't bother with the figures that show what Campbell's actually be up to on the health care file then. It's not worth the effort.

Blather

The level of debate is, as expected, even worse in this forum than in the Legislative Assembly itself. Is there any one present, other than Tieleman and McMartin, who have sat in the public gallery to view the proceedings? Would any of the posters know the difference between the orders of the day and a bowel movement? But that is not to forgive Tieleman and McMartin. Tieleman is of course by birthtright required to act as an apologist for NDP MLAs, all of whom are, as we speak, labouring within their ridings on behalf of their worthy constituents--even those whose WCB claims were rejected unjustly 20 years ago, etc. The reality is, of course, that MLAs quickly become jaded by the constituent cranks at their doorstep (see above posters) and oft times take to drink and chasing skirts (sometimes trousers.) McMartin, in another life, acted as an assistant to the unfortunate Clod (sic) Richmond, by whose example he should have learned that little of value is to be contributed toward either debate or legislative enactment by the dull and the mindless. Whatever there is of value in the Legislature takes place not in the House itself but in Cabinet or committees where then ministers and members are expected to give oversight to the draft bills and regulations shuffled their way by the bureaucrats. Needless to say, they can be inattentive to the point of somnambulance in these circumstances as well, but there's the odd-man-out who tries to fulfil a useful purpose. Counting sitting days is a statistically boring exercise, Will. Here I am--your biggest fan--and you've let me down.

Quote:Whatever there is of

With Gordo in charge, nobody in cabinet or on committees get a chance to speak up!
They are effectively muzzled as are many on government payrolls!
It is "toe the line" or you are out.
We desperately need the opposition to get their time in question period, and we need the media to follow up in a genuine manner on the questions raised.
That is our only chance we all get a fair break in this Province

bud carlos

I'm afraid that's a consummation devoutly to be wished. The idea that much 'work' gets done at committee, I mean.

For those of us who've followed committee hearings, most especially in the last session while Joy McPhail was still in the house, it is true that many questions were asked; while passing few were answered.

Counting days may well be futile; counting answers is even more so...as long as this government is in charge at any rate. Scraped of its references to excrement, Bill Bennett's statement to his 'constituent' is highly informative for what it says about the attitude of a member, however junior, of the current cabinet.

They are, as Bennett notes, very aware of whom their friends are....

absence grows the heart fonder

It appears by this chart, that the standard of living increases with the absence of legislation.
Maybe we should just limit the sitting to a few months in the fall, when everything is happening.
Less government equals more prosperity to the citizens.
Get these people out of our lives.

Alcibiades Alive

Apologize for not making myself clear: I spoke not of committees of the House but of committees of the Executive Council (Cabinet), e.g., legislative committee wherein Ministers et al vet proposed bills/regulations. During certain proceedings the House resolves itself into Committee of the Whole (the Speaker leaves the Chair) but it remains, in effect, the Legislative Assembly. At other times it constitutes itself into a lesser committee, e.g.,for debate of the Estimates. Whichever, the same pointy-headed light emitting diodes dim us down.

bud carlos

Members of executive committee aren’t threshing out the details of proposed legislation on their own. They know ‘what’ they want – the premier tells them that, and that’s about all.

The really hard work, from the initial written request for legislation through the drafting process and the various ministerial, constitutional and administrative law approvals - consultations with other ministries involved, analysis of consequential changes needed in other laws and regulations - and astute calculations as to the potential for future court challenges (red flagging) - are all done by a staff of extremely hard working professionals. Not politicians at all.

They are almost never recognized by the public although one occasionally sees them in the background when a minister is being questioned in the house. When a minister is confronted with a question that can't be answered from his or her limited knowledge - it is to one of the hard working 'real' professionals that reference will be made.

America's congress

It is unfair to merely blame the Republicans. The Democrats do not complain about the lax schedule or the pay raises. Unfortunately it took segregationist Governor Wallace to reveal the truth that "there's not a dime's worth of difference between" Republicans and Democrats. The Democrats willingly went along with the War in Iraq, suspension of Habeas Corpus, opening mail, banning books like "America Deceived' from Amazon, stealing private lands (Kelo decision), warrant-less wiretapping and refusing to investigate 9/11 properly. They are both guilty of treason. Canada is NO different, just less obvious.
Support indy media.
Last link (before Google Books bends to gov't Will and drops the title):
America Deceived (book)

What are the min. number of sitting days?

Back to the pay of MLAs (and away from the irrelevant name calling and put downs), does anyone know what the minimum days the legislature could sit in the year? What is legally required? The government can put most legislation through order in councils. If people truly think that the sittings are a waste of time, or that the opposition MLAs shouldn't get paid, why have them at all. We could elect a government every four years that will never hear any debate outside their own caucus room. Wouldn't that be great for democracy?

Of course MLAs do a lot of work outside the legislature, but there is no consistent way of measuring this. MLAs will respond to some constituents and not others. They turn down appearances at some events and not others. How much of their "outside" work can be deemed "getting ready for the next election"?

MLAs pay in BC is probably too low, but they cannot snub their noses at the electorate and stop democracy between elections. No doubt, Gordon Campbell must hate question period, but that is where he is held accountable between elections. With all due respect to the mainstream media, they gave up unbiased reporting long ago.

We need some standard as to the number of days the legislature will be in session. Linking that to MLA pay is as good a way as any of ensuring accountability.

Facts?

I won't bother with the figures that show what Campbell's actually be up to on the health care file then. It's not worth the effort. - GW

Facts don't support your pre-determined outcome GW? That's so left wing......

NLN

Not at all. When I first noticed your posts on this site I approached you openly with the view that most, of not all, of Canada's health care problems had been discussed and reasonable approaches had been suggested for their solution: Within the ambit of a comprehensive review by a competent authority, Roy Romanow.

If anyone is promoting a pre-determined outcome here, NLN, it's you. You haven't even taken the time to study that report, its findings and its recommendations. Your monolithic point of view stems from:
(i) Ignorance - when this debate started about 13 months ago you weren't even aware there WAS a Romanow Report;
(ii) A conviction that more choice and private medicine is somehow the solution to this problem; and
(iii) A misguided conviction that an increase in budgetary allocations for health that appears to you to be growing faster than the overall growth of the economy means that the sky is falling.

Well, it isn't. And the Campbell government's purblind mismanagement of this file - not least confirmed by the resignation of Penny Ballam (who actually does know the business) and the incompetence of Minister Abbott as regards skyrocketing overtime expenses incurred on an ongoing basis as a non-solution for bed shortages. This is within a system that has more than enough under-utilized capacity to address the input crisis more or less overnight.

You're the one who has made up his/her mind. Until such time as you've actually availed yourself of some basic economic knowledge about the system and how its remediation can be effected you are a waste of time.

One small clue for you. When there is a shortage of trained health professionals the idea that building incredibly capital intensive duplicate training facilities in both Victoria and Prince George is a cost effective way to address that shortage - when virtually all of the people who actually do the training are, and will remain in the Lower Mainland - is so passing strange that any other decision made by this government on the Health file is called into question.

That this decision, which is a monument-building exercise more than anything else, was rushed through quickly and against the advice of medical professionals at UBC who are actually charged with the education of doctors in this province you knew from the beginning that things in the medical arena were going to go from bad to worse.

I'm not left wing. I just happen to know what I'm talking about.

Oh, G West......

....there ya go, using logic and cognizance again!

Mainstream & Mickleburgh

I first want to thank my old friend Rod Mickleburgh of the Globe and Mail for his kind words on my work on the Basi-Virk case - and thank BC Mary for her words and her work as well - but there is a bit of a problem with Rod's other comments.

"Tieleman has done well on the raids story, but we were the only mainstream media to cover the interesting saga of Erik Bornmann's problems with the Ontario Law Society" Rod writes above.

In fact, I broke several of the stories on Bornmann's law career, the Law Society's "good character" hearing, his articling at McCarthy Tetrault - corporate donors to the Paul Martin leadership campaign, etc in 24 hours newspaper.

I appreciate the Globe's coverage of this issue but the last time I looked 24 hours, newspaper where I write every Tuesday, was pretty mainstream - owned jointly by Quebecor and Jim Pattison and distributing about 140,000 copies a day in BC - quite a few more than, say, the Globe.

You can see my work in 24 hours and the Tyee plus additional items on Basi-Virk at my blog:

http://billtieleman.blogspot.com/

We're no better off when politicians gather

Many US legislatures meet only once every two years.

The Economist recently did a study and found no correlation between economic growth or societal wellbeing by any measure between those states where their legislature meets frequently, versus those that meet seldomly.

Proof positive that the legislature is really just a talk shop. The government spouts platitudes, while the opposition tries to score publicity points.

I do think that many MLAs work hard on behalf of their constituents in sorting out individual problems. In many ways, I think they're more useful when they're not in the legislature than when they are.

Martin

You might want to look at the situation in the state of Texas before you accept conclusions from the Economist as a measure of societal well-being. The condition of public education (and a wide variety of other social measures) in that jurisdiction is appalling and has been for some time - despite the former governor of that state's (and current POTUS) attempts to spin it otherwise. Statutorily the legislature in Texas is not even required to meet once yearly.

I'd like someone who thinks the current gang in Victoria are doing a good job of addressing:
a. health care;
b. child care;
c. poverty and homelessness;
d. affordable advanced education;
e. infrastructure breakdown and wear-out,
among other things, to show me some evidence of same.

Whether or not there is a correlation between sitting days, progress and well-being is a mystery...but to suggest that these people - on both sides of the isle - are doing a good job of addressing the peoples' business and therefore deserve a raise - is smoking something a little stronger than Player's Filter.

GW

GW, I don’t have to read the entire Romanow report to have a perspective on this issue. It’s not clear to me why you see it as the only viable path considering its flawed provenance and Romanow’s background.

You try to tie the Health Care budget into the GDP as a benchmark for expenditures. That strikes as a CPA ruse that allows the faithful to continue to push for greater expenditures, mostly for the benefits of the HEU and its members.

The Health Care budget is taking a bigger share of our taxes each year. If we follow the Romanow path we will have to raise taxes. I’d rather have a dialogue about rational ways to increase productivity and effectiveness before we throw any more money at what I see as a flawed system.

Cleary you’re a bright guy with an interesting perspective. It’s unfortunate that you brand any one who doesn’t share you perspective as ignorant and unworthy.

At the end of the day you spend all you energy lambasting the current government for the shortcomings in large and complicated system that has struggled under all governments of the past 20 years. Surely you can do better than to just regurgitate Romanow…..

Response to Tieleman

Watch who you're calling old, Bill. You'll be my age one day. Hehe.

You've done a really good job, as I said, on the Basi-Virk file, but the day 24 Hours ceases to be a giveaway, handed out on streetcorners like free car wash coupons, is the day I will welcome it into the "mainstream media". Besides, not being mainstream media might seem like a badge of honour some days. Besides Bill's columns (100 words?), the best reads in 24 Hours are the Friday movie reviews by my old (oops...) friend Volkmar Richter. That's a plug.

NLN

You're accusing me of branding?

I think you should look a little closer at what you've been calling me.

This started out, months ago, as a civil conversation.

I have no hesitation asserting today that I've always been prepared to continue it on that basis.

I haven't regurgitated anyone. I've just suggested that if there is going to be a meaningful discussion it has to start from some shared experience.

I see nothing coherent, and in fact, nothing much at all, from the other side - apart from media sound bites and opportunities for the Premier to show us how 'concerned' he is. I pointed out earlier that I spent about 18 hours in a major metropolitan emergency department one weekend recently with 2 different relatives. I would never suggest that my anecdotal experience is typical of what one would find all over the province, but at the same time, it certainly revealed some cracks in the system.

Roy Romanow spent years analyzing the actual conditions in all kinds of medical services delivery situations all across this country. I don't think it's too far off the map to suggest that his observations are a lot more useful than the government's so called 'conversations'. These are going to be - apart from what I'd suggest has already been telegraphed from the Premier and Ms Taylor - nothing more than a serial recitation of anecdote.

You can't make economic planning and program - not to mention capital - decisions on that basis, or, as is currently the case according to Penny Ballam, on the seat of your pants.

Now if that is regurgitating anything I'll stop right now, because we're so far from being in accord that we are wasting each other’s time.

I think the name-calling around here is ridiculous and I'm happy to replace it with serious discussion anytime. In fact, I wager the vast majority of people who come here think the same thing.

If you're ready to do so too, well I'm all in favour of that. Why not drop that insulting name that puts people of a slightly progressive bent on edge and come in from the cold?

I think that, and Roy Romanow's Report, is a far better place to start a discussion or a conversation, than anything else I've seen proposed here or anywhere else lately.

dysfunctional governance

An interesting article Will, I thank you for the research and work that went into producing it. These are my reflections:

* too much political and fiscal power is concentrated in the Premier's office, and in the offices of a few Ministers -this was perhaps fine in the mid 1800's but not in the 21st century.

* Premiers and Cabinets can essentially rule by decree, on virtually any topic, for as long as their term lasts- excepting the requirement to cause the Legislature to 'sit' for a minimal number of days per year. There are virtually no checks on Executive Power. Contrast that - with the fact that President Chavez in Venezuela - was recently authorized by the Venezuelan government to 'rule by degree' for (a) a specific period of time, namely, 18 months, and( b) only in specific areas.

* we have essentially a 'command and control" low-level dysfunctional democracy, the same type that led to the down-fall of other 'command and control' societies. The commond and control law making that are most prevalent are: (a) Orders in Council by the Provincial Cabinet, and (b) Ministerial Orders. And of course, the power of appointment that 'goes with' the Premier's Office, - power to appoint to Tribunals such as the BC Utilities Commission, BC Labor Board, WCB Board, the Environmental Appeal Board, all the Courts, Health Authorities, etc. etc.

Municipalities, which are increasingly under attack by the BC Liberal Government, are still children of the province - is it not time to modernize our dysfunctional institutional arrangements, to envisage a future with more fiscal and political power sharing, more equity, more checks and balances between the 'rights of the Premier/Ministers/ the Province, and Municipalities/Regions?

I don't see any political party existing, either NDP, Liberals or Greens, or Reform, or 'whatever'...even coming close to proposing an agenda to democratize the political landscape of this province. Whether it will be an NDP, Liberal or 'whatever' govenment --neither seek to democratize the outdated, dysfunctional institutions of governance...instead...they seek to 'capture' the reins of power as they now exist ..and use it to their own ends --and that implies maintaining the powers implicit in the Premiers Office, Ministerial Powers, the Perogatives of the Crown, the powers of appointment, the centralization of the Provincial Treasury, a patriarchial, paternalistic mode of governance.

The challenge, which I put to both the BC Liberal, BC NDP, and the Green leadership, including the party cadres, as well as those in Municipal Leadership positions, is to put an end to this charade of democracy - and seek, by negotiation to modernize --a first step -would be to implement -at least the STV system - that was approved by, 56 0r 58 percent of the BC electorate --a clear majority. STV- a system that puts the power in the hands of citizen to nominate and elect , and takes away power sought by political party hacks, cadres, and cronies of whatever political colour, to promulgate a 'list' of names via the MMP system.

That is my take on things anyway - indeed some readers may agree, others not, that is fine

dysfunctional governance

An interesting article Will, I thank you for the research and work that went into producing it. These are my reflections:

* too much political and fiscal power is concentrated in the Premier's office, and in the offices of a few Ministers -this was perhaps fine in the mid 1800's but not in the 21st century.

* Premiers and Cabinets can essentially rule by decree, on virtually any topic, for as long as their term lasts- excepting the requirement to cause the Legislature to 'sit' for a minimal number of days per year. There are virtually no checks on Executive Power. Contrast that - with the fact that President Chavez in Venezuela - was recently authorized by the Venezuelan government to 'rule by degree' for (a) a specific period of time, namely, 18 months, and( b) only in specific areas.

* we have essentially a 'command and control" low-level dysfunctional democracy, the same type that led to the down-fall of other 'command and control' societies. The commond and control law making that are most prevalent are: (a) Orders in Council by the Provincial Cabinet, and (b) Ministerial Orders. And of course, the power of appointment that 'goes with' the Premier's Office, - power to appoint to Tribunals such as the BC Utilities Commission, BC Labor Board, WCB Board, the Environmental Appeal Board, all the Courts, Health Authorities, etc. etc.

Municipalities, which are increasingly under attack by the BC Liberal Government, are still children of the province - is it not time to modernize our dysfunctional institutional arrangements, to envisage a future with more fiscal and political power sharing, more equity, more checks and balances between the 'rights of the Premier/Ministers/ the Province, and Municipalities/Regions?

I don't see any political party existing, either NDP, Liberals or Greens, or Reform, or 'whatever'...even coming close to proposing an agenda to democratize the political landscape of this province. Whether it will be an NDP, Liberal or 'whatever' govenment --neither seek to democratize the outdated, dysfunctional institutions of governance...instead...they seek to 'capture' the reins of power as they now exist ..and use it to their own ends --and that implies maintaining the powers implicit in the Premiers Office, Ministerial Powers, the Perogatives of the Crown, the powers of appointment, the centralization of the Provincial Treasury, a patriarchial, paternalistic mode of governance.

The challenge, which I put to both the BC Liberal, BC NDP, and the Green leadership, including the party cadres, as well as those in Municipal Leadership positions, is to put an end to this charade of democracy - and seek, by negotiation to modernize --a first step -would be to implement -at least the STV system - that was approved by, 56 0r 58 percent of the BC electorate --a clear majority. STV- a system that puts the power in the hands of citizen to nominate and elect , and takes away power sought by political party hacks, cadres, and cronies of whatever political colour, to promulgate a 'list' of names via the MMP system.

That is my take on things anyway - indeed some readers may agree, others not, that is fine

The Larger Context

This discussion seems to be largely between a few individuals who are very familiar with how the machinery of government works. You represent what percentage of the (voting) population? 0.5%? 0.1%? Still, speaking for the other 99.x%, we appreciate any morsel of insight we can get.

A year ago I finally prevailed on my MLA to meet with me in his office to discuss the legal issue I have been pursuing for several years. He opined that if I was right then it was a very serious matter. He then attempted to call one of the hard working persons referred to above (a lawyer), unaware that I had previously spoken to this same person.

Thereafter the stonewalling resumed until my continued persistence elicited a telephone message (“that’s the end of that argument”) and then a letter with a copy of the Statute Revision Act attached. Not too long after that my MLA was in committee and had an interesting exchange with another of the hard working people referred to above (and also a lawyer – government needs so many).

That exchange is one of the items of evidence I intend to use in court to support the tort claims I am now pursuing. I have learned from extensive experience just how dysfunctional our political system is and that in Canada there is nowhere for ordinary citizens to turn to for assistance in dealing with that reality. Perhaps if the well-informed members of the Canadian media – mainstream or “alternative” – were taking their alleged role of providing real oversight more seriously, then I could finish this protracted forensic exercise and legal action a little more quickly. In fact maybe there would never have been an issue to pursue in the first place.

How much time our MLA’s spend in the House is, as several people have noted, of limited consequence because the House doesn’t appear to represent the interests of the people. However, it might be one of the issues of legitimate concern to a better informed public.

It certainly is Chris B

In fact, if you scratch through the bushes diligently enough, I think you'll find that a few of those hard-working professionals have even, once upon a time, assisted a private member to plan, draft, present and pass through committee all the way to royal assent a piece of legislation that was not part of the government of the day's program.

Others of those professionals do complicated quasi-judicial settlement work with outside experts that benefit groups of individuals who have been wronged in one way or another. The Berger report on abuse at Jericho Hill school is an example of that.

Instead of slamming the professional civil servants who work for the people of this province - no matter what the stripe of the government in power is - B.C's citizens should be pleased that they do their jobs with such dedication despite the fact they get little or no public recognition for it.

The hundreds of order-in-council appointments of party flaks, business hangers on and political spin doctors who manage to take the credit for the people who actually do the work under incredible pressure - not so much.

Bitter, but overkill?

The writer, and as far as I can tell, all the posters, have been sneering at the pay as though the work was only that done in while sitting.

What does an MLA do? This one is an interesting summary, which seems plausible, albeit from a different jurisdiction.

[url=:http://www.australianpolitics.com/parliament/factsheets/ - 15membersofparliament.htm/]

So, what I take from that is confirmation of what one suspects: that is, that the job of MLA is somewhat more than just going to the meetings, i.e. sitting in the House.

It seems to me that the job entails making decisions from a place of some power, i.e. to grant (or deny) benefits. Often, the member is begged to advocate for a citizen constituent. Say, in the instance of a judicial matter, the MP (via staff) could be asked to intervene in a quasi-judicial dispute with the bureaucracy.

This is meaningful, decision-making work. Any reasonable person who agrees to do that kind of work, should be obliged to do more than attend to what amount to big staff meetings. They should be actually doing the work -- that is, reading the reports, meeting and greeting, attending rallies, answer correspondance, investigating allegations, and, yes, being totally open to the machinations of Party Intriguers.

And this is just for the pawns who show up to vote as requested. The whips, chairs, and cabinet members are going to have far, far more pressures. Answering the media's questions, for example.

Well, if you have any professionalism at all, this sounds like full time work. And should be paid at a rate that attracts competent managers. (And/or cynical flunkies.)

Apology to "all of the posters"

I hadn't read all of the posters, when I hit reply, just skimming. Oeanda, for example, is saying much the same thing, in discussion with Alci, C_Attile...

NDP onslaught

Hyeena said: "there is nothing to legislate as there is no worthwhile opponent. Demanding the Liberals sit in parliament is like asking us to view a beating. That is, the Liberals putting the smackdown to the ndp."

In the last sitting of the legislature, even though it was only 3 days, was very distressing for Gordo's Liberals. They were continually trying to evade the issue that the NDP were raising in the house on behave of the citizens of the province. They did everything in their power to try to stop the NDP and they were deeply embarrassed. The only reason they had the session was to fix a mistake they made in their first term. They need many more to fix the other mistakes they made. Campbell was the only Liberal who was successful in evading the NDP onslaught, he stayed away from the House, showing his contempt for the Legislature and the citizens of this province the MLA's are supposed to represent.

'Will'ful ignorance no excuse

I'm surprised. I had credited Will Mcmartin with the ability to see beyond the unthinkning rants of many of his columnist colleagues. This column, however, displays a degree of "Will"ful ignorance that does not become him.

McMartin bases his baseless rant on a singular facet of an MLA's job description - the amount of time they sit in the legistlature - while ignoring the other 90% of the time that MLA's spend in their communities serving their consituents.

If McMartin had bothered to take the time to talk to an MLA or their constituency staff, he would soon find that MLAs rarely have a free weekend or evening. If they are serious about being re-elected, they work days, evenings, and weekends -- attending cultural events, meeting with community groups and local government officials, travelling around the province in their roles as critic or government ministry representative, and filling statutory duties on legislative committees.

The failure of the Campbell government to follow through on their commitment to ensure the legislature sits for a full spring and fall session reflects the government's fear of public scrutiny, rather than on the work ethic of MLA's.

A government that denies the public an opportunity to properly scrutinize their decisions, through their elected Opposition members and the news media, is a government that has something to hide.

The responsiblity for this singular lack of courage should be placed directly where it belongs - in the office of the Premier -- rather than being heaped on the elected representatives who work hard to represent their contituents in government.

Public Good Not Private Greed

Pay is not an issue, people are supposed to run for public office to serve, not collect!

If you want a raise join the private sector and then ask your boss for a raise!
If you want a pension invest your own money (as it is for most of us!)!

MLA's pay should only rise based on any rise in the cost of living.

Just ask someone on welfare or disability!!

When was their last increase?

'Will'ful ignorance no excuse

I'm surprised. I had credited Will Mcmartin with the ability to see beyond the unthinkning rants of many of his columnist colleagues. This column, however, displays a degree of "Will"ful ignorance that does not become him.

McMartin bases his baseless rant on a singular facet of an MLA's job description - the amount of time they sit in the legistlature - while ignoring the other 90% of the time that MLA's spend in their communities serving their consituents.

If McMartin had bothered to take the time to talk to an MLA or their constituency staff, he would soon find that MLAs rarely have a free weekend. If they are serious about being re-elected, they work days, evenings and weekends -- attending cultural events, meeting with community groups and local government officials, travelling around the province in their roles as critic or government ministry representative, and filling statutory duties on legislative committees.

The failure of the Campbell government to follow through on their commitment to ensure the legislature sits for a full spring and fall session reflects more on the government's fear of public scrutiny, rather than on the MLA's work ethic.

A government that denies the public an opportunity to properly scrutinize their decisions and policies, through their elected Opposition members and the news media, is a government that has something to hide.

The responsiblity for this singular lack of courage should be placed directly where it belongs - in the office of the Premier -- rather than being heaped on the elected representatives who work hard to represent their contituents' interests in government.

Krispy

Will McMartin measured MLA performance one way. To suggest that a great many other posters haven't brought up a lot of other important considerations must mean you haven't read the commentary. Like much exegesis, it's often more enlightening and insightful than the original text. Have a closer look and welcome to the Tyee.

Still, McMartin’s essay is valid and an excellent jumping off point. If you think you’re getting value from people so ill-supplied with tact and good judgment as the late junior minister of mines, then you’re likely happy with the Campbell government and the opposition. And that does seem awfully strange to me.

I’m with Bill…. McMartin, not Bennett ….on this one. Oh, and one other point, if we were to rate this government on the basis of how forthright they are when it comes to answering questions in the Legislature or in committee, they’d get an even lower grade.

What the heck are these folks hiding? You’ve have thought a fellow like Bill Bennett, all frank and honest and plain-spoken like he is, would have been pushing his caucus mates to open up and speak frankly about a whole range of matters that are far more important than whether or not these ‘so-called’ public servants have arranged for 3 of their good friends to give them a raise wouldn’t you?

There are a whole bunch of questions about standards of railway safety in this province and the length of CN trains now running on the old B C Rail lines that I’d sure like to have answered. And that’s just one of many really good questions about the way these public servants in Victoria are doing their jobs.

Air Solution?

While all the MLA's were away in their constituency offices, boning up on the environment and important matters. Did any one of them notice that the Feds have moved to Canada Gazette 1 an international treaty that will allow a marine bunker fuel standard sulpher content level 4.5% when our own GVRD is moving to 1.5% and then on to 0.5% for marine transportation.

What are our legislators doing for us? These is the things they are suppose to catch for us.

Ah well, just stay out of the Fraser Valley again this summer, cough, sputter, spew.

We are all accountable

Others of those professionals do complicated quasi-judicial settlement work with outside experts that benefit groups of individuals who have been wronged in one way or another. The Berger report on abuse at Jericho Hill school is an example of that.

Instead of slamming the professional civil servants who work for the people of this province - no matter what the stripe of the government in power is - B.C's citizens should be pleased that they do their jobs with such dedication despite the fact they get little or no public recognition for it.

The hundreds of order-in-council appointments of party flaks, business hangers on and political spin doctors who manage to take the credit for the people who actually do the work under incredible pressure - not so much.

Given the size of the Victoria bureaucracy I’m sure there are some people who work very hard and some who are very productive (not necessarily the same thing). From my own experience inside large bureaucracies, including one that was government, I know that many people are prevented from being productive and are very frustrated as a result. It’s up to all of us – citizens, as well as politicians and civil servants – to remedy that problem.

Here are a couple of interesting items that I think illustrate the problem. The first is a report published by the B.C. Ombudsman, “Broken Glass, Broken Trust” (http://www.ombud.gov.bc.ca/reports/Special_Reports/Special%20Report%20No%20-%2025.pdf). In addition to being online, it was printed with a glossy cover, no doubt at an expense far exceeding the $370 loss it laments. How much I don’t know, but for comparison I do know that the Labour Board’s “Timelines Initiative Report” that I believe resulted from a letter I had sent to the Minister of Labour, cost us $60,000 and also produced no result whatsoever. Unlike the Ombudsman’s report it has been quietly retired from the LRB’s web site.

No doubt this sort of thing is common in all governments. That doesn’t make it excusable. When I wrote to the Minister of Labour I wasn’t asking him to waste $60,000 on a useless report. I was asking him to do his job.

Recently I received two letters from the Ombudsman refusing, without giving any cogent reasons, my request for a full review of the adjudication of “Duty of Fair Representation” cases at the LRB. I presented some ideas about how to assess the merits of conducting such a review and asked for a meeting to discuss the matter further. Request refused. Obviously not because of a lack of resources or because of the need to manage priorities.

Now, here’s a remarkable example of the opposite phenomenon: “Politics & the Rule of Law” (http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hen/publications/rule_of_law/rule_of_law_intro.html), which was published in response to a 1999 judgement of the B.C. Supreme Court in a case brought against the provincial government. A reading of this document leaves one wondering how an initiative as ambitious as this could ever have been undertaken in Victoria. Whoever was responsible ought to be given an award. It was clearly intended for a wide audience and should be required reading for everyone in Victoria, and especially for incumbent or prospective MLA’s. However, it seems to have received no attention whatsoever. (The government never produced a printed copy but I was eventually able to prevail on the Vancouver Public Library to produce one for their shelves.)

You're absolutely right Chris

There is wonderful, original and honest work being done all the time - and most of it is buried or forgotten while worthless glossy paper that isn't anything more than a prideful mission statement is being spun out by about 200 order-in-council appointment flak catchers, deal brokers and pr types to fill the media's mailboxes.

I'd like to know how much they paid the graphic designers who created that little logo and its tag line.

You know the one: British Columbia, the best place in the world.

What a great use of time, resources and money.

What a waste of human capital.

What a farce this is which calls itself democracy.

The Meaning of Democracy

Democracy is a word that we all use too readily - without really thinking
about what it means. Yesterday, at Chapters, I stumbled on a book (now on my reading list) that discusses the history of the word, including its
origin, and the evolution of the idea, both of which now have such
remarkably wide currency.

I believe one of the author's points is that with the sole exception of
the original Athenian experiment, no system of government anywhere in the world has ever come very close to achieving the ideal. Nor, apparently, is he recommending the Athenian model as a practical or desirable approach to governance. Until the term and the concept were given fresh appeal during the French Revolution, the Athenian system was largely disparaged as an anomalous form of mob rule.

I choose to believe however that the problems we currently face with
government can be substantially resolved, by focusing on some other
concepts related to democracy: e.g. accountability, integrity, and the
"rule of law". That is why my attention was drawn to the above mentioned
document. If you haven't read it, just go through the executive summary,
and pay no attention to all the references to the Forest Service. This is
about government - period.

FYI, the BCSC judgement that triggered this exercise is also worth a quick review (http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/jdb-txt/sc/99/12/s99-1235.txt).

I will be making use of this judgement and the government's response to it in court in the hearing of the lawsuit I initiated in January against the A.G. and the Ministry of Labour
(http://www.m-f-d.org/pdf/2005-11-12_open_letter_bcla.pdf).

as follows

feel free to contact me at

athenian democray

Chris B: Unfortunately Athenian democracy didn't include women, slaves, Jews, and well- everyone except the rich land owning class. Pathetic as it is our democracy is way better than theirs. We only gave women the vote in 1919, think about it.

Apples to Oranges

What you are suggesting is that the granting of voting rights to women has made our system of government more democratic. That would be true if our votes were worth anything. I don’t think they are. In the Athenian system every citizen (admittedly that excluded women, slaves, etc.) was entitled, and in fact encouraged, to attend the regular assemblies in Athens, where all manner of issues were debated and disposed of.

They must have had some remarkable sessions back then, which perhaps partly explains why we owe so much to the ancient Greeks. I can’t imagine that anyone two and a half thousand years from now will be the least bit interested in our Hansard records.

Capitalisn't

Your ideology matches your writing... fragmented and terrible?

Voting rights for women

I'm glad women have the vote of course, but Canadian history aficionados would do well to roll back the clock to 1917 and the conscription crisis - which is often billed as a French/English cleavage - to see exactly what were the rules about who 'got' to vote in that election (when women first were allowed to cast a ballot).

You might be surprised at what a conservative Prime Minister named Borden was actually up to and how he trashed democratic principles at the same time as he gave 'some' women their first look at democracy from the inside. It’ll come as no surprise he was the last PM to be knighted.

the opposition

I thought that some opposition mla's were elected last election.
I e-mailed my mla (ndp) but he's just so busy he may not be able to respond...
and he hasn't. Poor guy's just so busy...
It's a 100% in-effective ndp opposition
with a really lame leader !
And they do get paid far to much for what they aren't doing.

What Opposition? Even their

What Opposition?

Even their friends can't find them....

what's a "maestro"...

What the hell is this "maestro" turkey ?

Must wear a dictionary around his thick neck.

Happily there's only one !

raise the rates instead? no hungry politicians just fat ones?

Voting is just the door bell to democracy next you have to open that door and take a good hard look at who you believe will best represent you in your community and then communicate with your MLA and MP on what you expect from them as your representative. A recent survey conducted on the knowledge of the different constituents in the different riding showed many were clueless when it came to their governments and how they were run. Our justice minster felt their was no need to spend any money on educating the various cultures groups as he felt they were doing a bang up job on their own. And we see how well that is working. And another one and another one and another one bites the dust.

correction

I meant to say Wally Oppal the Attorney-General and Minister responsible for
Multiculturalism. What nationality is Mr. Oppal as I remember some off handed comment he made about cutting their hands off. Maybe Islamic? Let me know? Curious?