Good One

Heh, Heh. Another one to keep an eye out for. I stopped buying things marked, "Made in Yousaw'(USA) a long time ago.
I grow my own tomatoes and follow a neat recipe from Piere Berton's book, "Just Add Water And Stir," and make up a lot of soup, salsa and sauces and freeze them. All from patio grown tomatoes. Grown in B.C. Anyone can do it.

Sorry

Sorry Pierre, I'll edit better.

Extend the boycott err

Extend the boycott err BoyCott.

Avoid NDP chock full o' imported-sky ideology

What??

What on earth does this have to do with global warming....if this is going to be the intro to your article, please conclude why??? I have no idea Ms. Platt???

I think that (a) people caring about where their food comes from, and (b) global warming, are mutually exclusive.

As long as the tomatoes taste good and pass stringent food safety regulations, i could care less if they import them from Antarctica. BC Hot House is a good local company - buy BC!

Too good to be true

Someone named Capitalism? Too good to be true, must be a left-wing crank trying to bait wholesome moderates...

The average Canadian meal travels 2500km. How do you think that food travels? Carrier pigeons? No, it travels on oil, and when oil burns it releases CO2 and CO2 causes global warming.

Of course the whole thing is moot, since most BC hothouses are burning gas to heat themselves, which means more CO2, etc.

So, eat local, in season whenever possible, cut back on the meat, since it is 10 times more energy intensive than vegetables, and walk to the grocery store. Sorry Capitalism, I understand it will change the current profit structure. It won't cause a recession, though, it will just spread our food dollars around to more people.

Quote:What on earth does

Maybe it has something to do with big trucks travelling thousands of kilometers spewing emissions, or planes doing the same thing. I don't think she needs to spell this out, it's not a difficult concept to grasp.

Thanks to global warming

The author rightly connects global warming with transortation of food from far off lands. Ahh yes, transportation. One of the single largest sources of CO2, our transportation system in North America contributes to the killing of our planet on a daily basis. So if we can obtain local food, we will reduce the demand for trucking and flying food from long distances. Air travel BTW is one of the worst possible emitters (see George Monbiot's book "Heat: How to Stop the Planet from Burning" for details)
( http://www.energybulletin.net/22176.html). Even if one didn't see this connection at first, now that its clear you have the opportunity to embrace the principle.

If you are going to do the MATH, don't spin it.

This was discussed in a recent TYEE topic.

The debate begins with Global Warming/Climate Change propoganda ...things like the 100 Mile diet propoganda ...costs of food production in BC and their environmental impacts, ....and costs of food production outside BC and their environmental impact.

( Also, did anyone catch the VANCOUVER PROVINCE story a few weeks back on the genesis of the BC Commercial Greenhouse production of foodstuffs )

Shall we begin ?

hot house tomatoes are crap

hot house tomatoes are crap no matter where they are produced.

field or nothing!

How'd you think they got here Cappy?

Teleportation? Nanobots? Huge air forces of well trained pigeons?

And I guess, when you were skipping classes fo gosh knows what reason, you missed the lecture on cause and effect too.

That explains a lot.

I'll help you out with some remedial reading if you like.

This is just another fine example of the ironic principle of Truth in Advertising.

Start with Vance Packard Cappy.

Go Organic(?)

Sorta reminds me of "Organic" ...say Free Range Chickens.

Someone explained it like the "Organic Free Range Chicken" has more room to wander around and may see that dead R-A-T. Maybe it is freshly dead with bloodied guts oozing out.... or old and bloated and full of maggots oozing out like grains of spastic rice, themselves devouring the flesh of the rat in the food chain cycle as Mother Nature intended.

Maybe the chicken is pecking at the dead rats stomach contents , or those areas of the dead RAT near the end of the intestine..ie the Stool -producing area.

Now in the food chain, that rat may have beem in someone's garbage, a sewer rat swimming amongst human feces,..or itself eating maggot ridden carrion (ie road kill) wherever it can find it.

Some countries find RAT a normal staple of their diet if not a delicacy all it's own.

But hey...that chicken was certified NOT enclosed in a cage in a barn which likely had less rats ,if any.

To each there own...Hey ,Lunch is only a couple of hours away !

Are you feeling kind " peckish "?

Chicken anyone...?

It goes both ways

If the Mexican tomatoes contribute to environmental problems, then so do the Canadian tomatoes that are being shipped to "thousands of stores across North America, Japan, Hong Kong and Taiwan".

The question that needs to be answered is how can the need for tomatoes be satisfied without the trans-shipments, given the seasonal inability to grow locally. (growing season-Canada), (land area - Hong Kong, Japan), etc ?

Alternatively, how can the trans-shipments be made without environmental damage ?

(Giant sailboats?)

TO: My Brain Is On Fire

Out of curiosity,

Do you like tomatoes...?

If you do, how do access them throughout the year ?

Nice Try Maestro

The rat-eating chicken is still probably healthier than chickens caged 3 per sq/ft so that disease will rampage thru the "flock", mutate and cause resistant infections to multiple species.

Come to think of if, the rat would be healthier too, bar-BQ'd of course.

Where I Live

the biggest threat to the free range chickens is not rats, it's coyotes and fox.
Also the threat to free range sheep is bears, and free range cattle is the cougar. We don't see many rats here and if we do it's is the Norwegian variety.

I too stopped eating USA grown foods about the time the US started there crap over our Lumber and Cattle. Admittedly it has changed my diet in winter. The biggest problem was no potatoes until I discovered the local organic farmer had a root cellar with about 5 tons of these gems in it. Biggest problem solved. All it took was a little shopping around.

Got it!

Okay - I get it. It must have slipped right past me because it is a ridiculous concept - another socialist agenda.

Of course, transport omits CO2. What do you suppose we do? Shut down the economy because the earth is, inevitably getting warmer.

This is what I talk about when I say socialist scheme. Global warming is an excuse for everything now.

We have to be pragmatic in dealing with these issues. Developing energy efficient transportation is the only answer - not closing international trade.

You commies irritate me. Of course your solution is shut the borders, increase taxes, tax businesses, slow economic growth - oh wait, what is growth?? You know what lefties, this ain't gonna happen - so stop exploiting it!

We need to deal with realites and not ideologies.

maestro - they are my favourite fruit

period. There are imported field tomatoes and of course the great evil canned tomatoes.

Growing your own (I used to when I lived incities where yards were easy to come by) is best.

But I've always loved tomatoes more than others in my peer groups.

maestro that rat posting was one of the most retarded things I've read on the tyee...could you write in phrases that at least attempt mimic normal english exposition please.

try this summary 1st, argument 2nd and conclusing third. thanks - in sentences would be great too.

Sorry My Brain Is on

Sorry My Brain Is on fire..

Thems the facts about Organic:

...just becuase its called or deemed Organic doesn't mean its necessarily healthy,

.... and the fact it Not Organic doesn't necessarily mean its bad for you.

Time to dig out more of your sources.

G West

Precisely which cause and effects were you talking about or do you even know?

It's a mine field of ironies.

Grow your own!

The best tomatoes are home grown. I mean h*o*m*e grown, at home in ones back or front yards. Safeway and Thrifty's sell crap, even the local vegetable sellers, products are questionable.

Grow your own!

economics of buying local

Capitalism:

Except for yours, I didn't see any comments or references in the article abt increasing taxes.

For 10 yrs I have subscribed to a "box a week" organic farm vegetable program, which has a waiting list bec. it's so popular in our area. It's been v successful for the farmers, who essentially pre-sell what they plant.

I think your own capitalist [Darwinian?] ideology is preventing you from recognizing that circulating our produce spending locally is good for business. And a local farmer who is successful is more likely to patronize my business than a multinational corporation with head office in Houston or wherever.

An added bonus for me is that I know my tomatoes aren't spiked with pig genes.

p.s. to Maestro and MyBrainIsOnFire:
I have a dynamite garlic-chile tomato chutney recipe if you want: process a couple of boxes of this in September and you'll be set for the year ;-)

Can't blame the truckers for the pollution.

For those who want to blame the transport of vegetables by trucks as the cause for global warming and pollution you had better read the news from The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization. Here is a snip.

http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2006/1000448/index.html

where's the beef

Woody, as Ruben pointed out above, meat production is v energy intensive, apart from the land and water degradation you refer to. I don't think any 100 Mile Diet people think that eating locally - by itself - will end global warming. There are lots of contributing factors to deal with. But this doesn't mean that supporting local farmers isn't good for the environment and local economy.

Perhaps as fuel costs increase, local produce prices will look more attractive in comparison to imports. OMG, what am I saying? That sounds like a marketplace economy - I thought I was supposed to be a "commie"!

snert

This one:

What on earth does this have to do with global warming....if this is going to be the intro to your article, please conclude why??? I have no idea Ms. Platt???

All from cappy's first post - which is the one I was replying to.

The only irony here is that all the information is readily available for you to have figured that out for yourself.

The Economist had a very

The Economist had a very good feature on Ethical Food a couple weeks. Here's a link: http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=E1_RPRDVJN
You will probably need a subscription to read it.

Here's a quote of interest to this discussion:
"The term “food mile” is itself misleading, as a report published by DEFRA, Britain's environment and farming ministry, pointed out last year. A mile travelled by a large truck full of groceries is not the same as a mile travelled by a sport-utility vehicle carrying a bag of salad. Instead, says Paul Watkiss, one of the authors of the DEFRA report, it is more helpful to think about food-vehicle miles (ie, the number of miles travelled by vehicles carrying food) and food-tonne miles (which take the tonnage being carried into account).

The DEFRA report, which analysed the supply of food in Britain, contained several counterintuitive findings. It turns out to be better for the environment to truck in tomatoes from Spain during the winter, for example, than to grow them in heated greenhouses in Britain. And it transpires that half the food-vehicle miles associated with British food are travelled by cars driving to and from the shops. Each trip is short, but there are millions of them every day. Another surprising finding was that a shift towards a local food system, and away from a supermarket-based food system, with its central distribution depots, lean supply chains and big, full trucks, might actually increase the number of food-vehicle miles being travelled locally, because things would move around in a larger number of smaller, less efficiently packed vehicles. "

poor cappy

Don't mind cappy biscotti. He sincerely doesn't grasp the ideas behind local economy because he believes that trickle down is the way to go. He practically starts foaming at the month if anyone suggests that perhaps monopolistic control of the economy by foreign multi-nationals may be doing more harm the good. But, then again, as we've seen, ethical investing really isn't his forte.

More "food for thought" from

More "food for thought" from the article cited above.

"What should a shopper do? All food choices involve trade-offs. Even if organic farming does consume a little less energy and produce a little less pollution, that must be offset against lower yields and greater land use. Fairtrade food may help some poor farmers, but may also harm others; and even if local food reduces transport emissions, it also reduces potential for economic development. Buying all three types of food can be seen as an anti-corporate protest, yet big companies already sell organic and Fairtrade food, and local sourcing coupled with supermarkets' efficient logistics may yet prove to be the greenest way to move food around.

Food is central to the debates on the environment, development, trade and globalisation—but the potential for food choices to change the world should not be overestimated. The idea of saving the world by shopping is appealing; but tackling climate change, boosting development and reforming the global trade system will require difficult political choices. “We have to vote with our votes as well as our food dollars,” says Mr Pollan. Conventional political activity may not be as enjoyable as shopping, but it is far more likely to make a difference. "

You commies irritate me - sez Cappy

That's good.

Somebody has to wake you complacent thugs up.

When did you get the directive from the Capo di tutti capi that it was okay to stop calling us just ‘lefties’?

Must be an election on the way, the production of empty rhetoric is starting to accelerate.

Don’t you have any widows and single moms to evict this morning?

but shirley

Sure enough Shirley but people still hop into their SUVs to drive to the superstore to purchase tomatoes trucked in from California. The grocery store concept is part of the problem. Produce is never trucked into the store itself, it is trucked into a series of warehouses before it's finally trucked to the grocery store. Not only that, but the large superstore concept wipes out smaller, more localized grocers which in turn adds to traffic congestion - not to mention the idling SUV's as the laziest of our citizens wait for that parking spot that much closer to the entrance. Economies of scale might mean cheaper produce, but I seriously doubt that the economic equation accounts for the negative externalities as economist fail in include the social costs of such an operation.

Rat free Example:

BC produces about 12 % of the overall North American Cranberry production.

FYI : The BC total production is approx. 75 Million LBS.

BC's population is approx. 4 Million People ( Lefties as well but accounted for separately)

That works out to about 19 lbs of cranberries per BC Resident
per year.

QUESTIONS :

Is every BC resident eating their quota of BC Cranberry production?

If not, why not?

As a solution....should we leglislate another seasonal holiday besides say Xmas and Thanksgiving to force/encourage consumption?

(My suggestion is we almagamate with the U.S. yet part of the deal is BOTH Thanksgivings are legally Kosher.This should increase cranberry consumption by at least double digit percentage points, would it not? )

If not, why not?

However, If we cannot increase local consumption...W-H-E-R-E are those excess cranberries going ....and H-O-W do we get them there ?

Catch the drift?

Ubiquitous, thanks for your

Ubiquitous, thanks for your thoughtful reply.

The article from the Economist addresses the very problems you bring up. If you can suggest a place where I can post the entire article for your perusal, I'd be happy to do it.

In any case, I think the conclusion of the article is clear. That is, that "The idea of saving the world by shopping is appealing; but tackling climate change, boosting development and reforming the global trade system will require difficult political choices. “We have to vote with our votes as well as our food dollars,” says Mr Pollan. Conventional political activity may not be as enjoyable as shopping, but it is far more likely to make a difference."

It's nice to think about heroic direct action affected by our consumer choices but in the grand scheme of things, solving inequity, pollution and development problems would be far more effective through the power of our vote.

eat local, eat seasonal

shirleytempleti...

Maybe it's time to go back to eating what's in season instead of having fresh strawberries or tomatoes in the winter.

They never taste as good to me as the real thing anyway. There's just no comparison between an industrial California grape, which has as much flavour as a spherical cuke, and an Okanagan Coronation grape ;-)

.
Good point.

Thanks shirley

I'll have a look for the article - I know someone who has a subscription. On the surface of things, I think that changing consumer habits is the key. However, I'm skeptical about the current grocery store system. All else being equal, it is the most efficient system, but nothing is equal in my opinion. Cheers.

Maestro

I love it!

Precisely how Gavin/Ubiquitous and their ilk think.

consumers like you cappy

Consumers like you cappy are the real problem.

Because the only criteria you use to judge success, happiness and fulfillment are related to collecting things and satisfying your oral cravings, you'd never disagree with George Bush's injunction to show them they haven't won by getting out there and shopping.

The advantage of additional holidays as an excuse to consume excess cranberries is the least of it. Think of it as another opportunity to contribute to global warming because it gives you and maestro another chance to fly down to Vegas for a long weekend of fun and debauchery.

It doesn't really mean anything 'cause, as the ads say, what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.

It's not the left that wants to avoid their responsibility to the environment guys - its you two - and every single one of your posts proves it.

I've never quite known two people so committed to the self-destruction of their own credibility through repeated public embarrassment. Freud had a term for your kind of arrested development.

totally maestro

didn't get enough sleep last methinks and found reading your post confusing...

but yeah I completely understand what you're saying..

I'd still take organic for most/all things though

So what criteria do you use?

G West

Are you successful, happy and fulfilled?

I'll bet it's collecting things and satisfying your oral cravings, just different things and cravings.

biscotti Where is the beef? Its in your clogged up arteries

biscotti, please read The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization. Report
I know most lovers of beef and dairy products will take the stick your head in the sand attitude over this report and recommendations. I believe the consumption of beef is very close to being declared as unhealthy as smoking, the reasons for not eating beef are out there every where. It matters not whether the beef comes from a major food packer or as you say local beef producer. It takes 18lbs of grain to produce 1 lb of beef,grain that should be fed to humans.Then there is the waste of electricity to irrigate, lighting, etc, pollution from tractors for cultivating, cutting, baleing hay. The removal and deposing of, e coli, contaminated manure, which incidently also caused the closure and removal of all the spinach a couple of months back. The new Canada food guide does list beef, but yesterday on the news many Doctors dispel this suggestion, as one Doctor alluded to, it was probably included in the food guide due to the strength of cattle industry lobbyist.

nope

not at all. If I was concerned with collecting stuff I certainly wouldn't be spending any time making an effort to educate people like you. As for oral cravings, you'll notice I also mentioned Freud. Adults grow out of those things - unless stuck at a particular stage of development.

Some folks never do...

Cap: re Ubiquitous

Cap:

Nah, Ubiquitous , in my view is like most on the TYEE ...we are into good healthy debate and will sometimes push the envelope. I see a lot of open minds...even if we agree to disagree.

(Besides, football is over till CFL camp and MLB spring training is barely up and running...)

G West, however, is still being " Left " stranded by the Mother Ship.

So you're not successful, happy and fulfilled

Too bad.

maestro

...I suddenly got a craving for some cranberries!

Cappy, you and maestro are nothing a like. Maestro has the capacity for abstract thought - I may not agree with him but ask him a question and he'll answer. You're MO is to make the weakest of assertions and then go into hiding when people call you out on your BS.

No, don't you remember

I'm oblique.

Anyone who's happy and fulfilled with the way things are trending these days is insane or has the mental capacity of a 10 year old on Christmas day.

Bobby McFerron sez

Don't worry, be happy.......

HE has spoken...

Oh Well

...I guess its over.

HE has spoken - ink .

PS ...Someone clean-up the horsesh!t from the " 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse " that just rode by.

Don't talk about w like that.

You might upstage the Dixie Chicks

WTO: The World BeTrade Organization

There's a marvelous report on "economics gone wild and a thug class in power globally" -- at:

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/index.php

Quote: "No falsehood has been so imperiously and unrelentingly forced upon the world’s population than the claim that the WTO works to make the lives of all humanity better, happier, healthier, and more just."

BC's Mexican Tomatoes could be the symbol.

Nobody forced a falsehood on anybody

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who believes seriously in the WTO with the exception of the politicians who foster it.

Still, I guess it's better than guns and bombs which is what the article more or less suggests at the end.

Greenhouse Tomatoes vs Field Tomatoes

This could be a personal preference. We've eaten plenty of tomatoes from our own back yard - including both field-grown and greenhouse-grown. We much prefer the taste of the greenhouse ones. It could be the greenhouse tomatoes you've tried are the hydroponic type. We grow our greenhouse tomatoes in regular soil that's fertilized with compost from our own composter.

People who think open-field farming is always more "natural" than greenhouse growing are not really clued-into sustainablility issues. There's nothing in the least ways "natural" about tilling the soil. Where does that occur in nature? When you till the soil with open-field farming, a substantial amount of that topsoil will always be blown-away or washed away every year. After hundreds of years of this tilling-induced soil erosion, the land can no longer grow anything. There is zero soil erosion in a greenhouse.

I live in an area of South Delta that's surrounded by both open-field farms as well as huge greenhouses. When the open fields are being tilled, the air is full of fine dust. The dust is topsoil being blown-away into the ocean. When I pass by close to those open fields, the stench of blood and bone fertilizer is hideous. We're forced to breathe all this crap floating around in the air. When our windows are open, the dust and fertilizer settles all over the inside of our house. On the other hand, when I pass by the mega greenhouses, there's no dust and no smell. The greenhouses are much better neighbors than open field farms.

Another very important issue to consider is that greenhouses use very little water compared to open field farming due to the glass barrier limiting evaporation. Rainwater gathered and stored onsite is enough to do the job. Open-field farming consumes massive amounts of water due to evaporation and runoff. The runoff water is loaded with fertilizers and pesticides that kill wildlife over a large area. The more it rains, the more pesticides open-field farmers spray on their crops to replace what's being washed away. We've never needed any chemical pesticides in our backyard greenhouses since the glass keeps the worst pests out. But if we ever do get a major pest problem, we'll introduce ladybugs and other friendly predators that will get rid of the pests without using the type of nerve poisons used in open-field farms.

Yield per square metre for a greenhouse is many times higher than yield per square metre for an open-field farm. This is due to much longer growing seasons, ability to easily optimize temperature, moisture and CO2 levels, plus other factors. Much higher greenhouse yields means that we can leave more forests in their natural state instead of knocking them down to make inefficient open-field farms that will over time lose so much topsoil to erosion that they will be incapable of reverting to forest even if they're abandoned some day. Many huge deserts used to be lush forests that were permanently destroyed by open-field farming.

If the roof of every building in every city was made into a greenhouse, a lot of forests that were cleared for farm fields could revert to being forests again, provided this is done before soil erosion makes it impossible. As a bonus, glass roofs are much more durable than most other types of roofs without really costing any more. A relative recently paid about $30,000 to get a new shingle roof on her moderately-sized house. For the same money, she could have built a greenhouse up there! As a further bonus, she could have gotten year-round free heat for both the greenhouse and living area by using a fan and ducting system to blow excess heat from the greenhouse through underground tubes to heat the soil under the house during the summer. That stored heat can be easily brought back into the home/greenhouse during the winter.

Here are a few good links to solar/geothermal greenhouse heating info. They're a repeat from another thread.

http://www.sagefarm.net/greenhouse.html
http://biorealis.com/resumes/projects.html
http://www.iea-eces.org/success/standard_utes.html
http://www.iea-eces.org
http://www.wisconsun.org/learn/cs_mckaysolarthermal.shtml

Ths following new page is also quite interesting, but I can't really endorse most of the rest of the website since it's a bit too KKK/Aryan Nations for my liking. Goes to show that an idea isn't responsible for the people who believe in it. http://survivalplus.com/foods/page0009.htm

happy arteries here

Woody, fyi my arteries are running pretty clear. But I don't know where in my post you'll find any disagreement on my part abt the impact of beef production. I was talking abt local vegetable farmers, not local ranchers. Though I have been known to buy the occasional local lamb :-o

The FAO report makes sense to me. However, where it says "Livestock now use 30 percent of the earth’s entire land surface" I have to assume this means *arable* land. Never seen many cows north of 60 or in the Rockies! Unless they're counting moose and muskox ;-)

btw maestro: try out low bush or high bush bog cranberries some time. You may never go back to Ocean Spray!

Trucking Tomatoes vs Heating Greenhouses

It's incredibly wasteful to burn fuel for the sole purpose of heating greenhouses. Greenhouses produce far more heat than they need most of the time. Excess heat can be stored when it's too hot and retrieved when it's too cold as described above at http://www.thetyee.ca/Views/2007/02/08/BCHotHouse#comment-103746 .

Another approach is to use Combined Heat Power (CHP) to utilize the 2/3 of energy from thermal electric generators that is usually thrown-away. Here's a link to an excellent video clip describing how CHP is used in the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and other countries: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klooRS-Jjyo CHP is used in some greenhouses here in South Delta.

I'm surprised to see Jack Layton endorsing local, year-round production of a large variety of foods in greenhouses. See: http://workingtv.com/100milebreakfast.html. The NDP usually supports agricultural marketing boards which force farmers to employ unionized truckers to haul their crops over long distances to large, centralized, unionized warehouses and large, centralized, unionized food processing plants while prohibiting farmers from selling fresh, healthy produce directly to their local communities. Layton's video clip is just below Libby Davies' video clip. Someone should tell Libby that "100-mile diet" does NOT mean she personally has to wolf-down ALL food she can lay her hands on within a 100-mile radius. She really should leave some behind for others to eat. Sharing is good. There will be nothing left to share if Libby continues to eat everything in sight.

Speaking of agricultural marketing boards, a relative who operates about five wheat farms near the Manitoba/Saskatchewan border says he prefers to sell his crops through a marketing board instead of negotiating his own deals. But he also admits that the marketing board forces him to spray his crops with huge amounts of nasty chemicals. He has set-aside some land where he grows semi-organic unsprayed stuff for his own consumption. It's semi-organic because it's still subject to some overspray from the main crop area.

When a marketing board sets a fixed price on crops, that means organic farmers who spend more to grow a safer, more nutritious product are not allowed to sell their superior foods for a higher price even if consumers are willing to pay more in order to get higher quality. Mandatory marketing boards thus destroy the financial viability of organic farms and prevent consumers from getting what they want. Since 70% of Manitoba wheat farmers want to keep their marketing board, there's nothing to stop them from doing so while letting the other 30% grow a higher quality crop to sell at whatever price the buyers are willing to pay. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

HOME ON THE RANGE

biscotti said,

My mistake there biscotti, sorry .

Throughout the interior of BC, there are range land allotments given out to ranchers which allows for their cattle to roam about and feed on forest lands, these animals mingle with all forms of wildlife and are free to urinate and defecate in or near springs, creeks, rivers, These rangelands are fenced and cross fenced , courtesy of the government. Additionally there is throughout B.C., an abundance of cattle guards installed on our roads, these items are quite expensive to purchase, install, maintain, these bone rattlers are all taxpayer funded. Then there is the marked gas ( tax free gas or diesel ) these ranchers burn in their cars, trucks, tractors, I think their given a deal by the auto insurance also.

Just Stop Driving

Just stop driving. Then you don't have to worry about where your tomatoes come from.

Hey, maestro

Do you by any chance eat crab or lobster?

Hey Cap!

Heck, MONEY is a socialist agenda. Shucks, everything that involves two or more people is a bleedin' socialist agenda!

Are you being an S-Disturber?

ubiquitous

Whatever would Cappy say about the Osmosis Theory, whereby the money enters the BOTTOM of the food chain, and works its way up.............?
Think he could say something without using the words "socialist" or "communist" like some kind of epithet?

Europe

Sure let's buy local. That's what the EU thinks. Well not perhaps the EU but countries like France and Germany.
They subsidize the farmers to produce wheat and sugar.
This of course screws the African farmers the pretend to be trying to help.
All of these people are already bankrupt, it's just that they are to gutless to admit it to their citizens.
Maybe Kyoto is a way for them to justify their genocidal actions.
Anything to explain how they expect to justify a 35 hour work week and six weeks vacation. And forget about ever getting fired from your job, no matter how much of a screw up you are.
I would rather be over here in North America, where we are trying to sort out problems without hiding our heads in the sand.

And why Ron, do you suppose

Why doesn't the US doesn't import ethanol from Brazil?

It's produced much more cheaply and efficiently there from cane sugar than it can be from corn in the United States? Did you know that? Do you know anything about pork barrel politics, agricultural entitlements and subsidies in the US? Not to mention the pervasive and evil influence of professional lobbyists and crooks like Jack Abramoff?

What is it that keeps the price of corn artificially high in that same United States Ron? You clearly don't know anything about subsidies, tariff barriers and American policy and politics.

Why does the US only give aid to Africa that consists of US produced agricultural and other products - instead of sourcing the aid in Africa where it would support indigenous agriculture and get to the place where it's needed much more quickly than goods shipped from the US? Agricultural subsidies and country of origin rules.

Why do you think the US lumber industry has been stopping exports of Canadian lumber to the US? Because the US really isn’t into free trade unless it works to their benefit.

At least in Europe the family farm and local food production are what is being subsidized – while in America they’ve been killed.

Here in North America, and in the US particularly, most of the subsidies go to big agribusiness like Archers Daniel Midland and Cargill.

You don't need to put your head in the sand, you don't actually have a head.

Contradictions Galore

So I am to understand that it is now progressively-virtuous to boycott anything grown more than 100 miles away?

Which means that these Commercial Drive-types will never, ever, buy anything made in an African cooperative ever again. Come to think of it -- isn't alleviating poverty in the third world something for the good guys? How are we to accomplish this if we refuse to trade with people who live more than 100 miles away?

Besides, I *like* bananas, oranges and yams. I think the families of the workers who work there are also glad that they have employment from my patronage, too.

Logical fallacy!

Cappy bleats,

Classic example of the false dichotomy.

Right on Martin

In Europe, they toast Africans, in order to subsidize their inefficient agricultural industry.
There is no need for them to pretend that they can do a proper job of providing the basic commodities like wheat, sugar, rice, grains, corn.
Let them produce their eggplants, figs, olives, Parmesan cheese, truffles, water buffalo mozza.
Let the Africans get ahead. They can supply commodities at a competitive price.

Logical fallacy #2

This is another classical logical fallacy called the "Straw Man." The reality of buying locally is of course, to buy locally what makes sense to buy locally, such as potatoes and carrots. Tropical fruits come from tropical countries and if you want them that's where you get them. Martin creates a false argument by extending the local buying to all products. Two hours detention along side Cappy!

Oh Great!

The Clueless One stumbled in incoherent as usual. Thinks Martin a genius for not understanding how to argue logically. Figures! Lay off the rubbing alcohol Clueless...

An

It sounds like you are failing, not me.
Sorry to wake you up.
The discussion is was Howard Stern living with Anna Nichole Smith?
Is the THE HOWARD STERN???
Methanol sure sniffs good.
I am glad to see the subsidized the burning of vegetables is an unacceptable method of placating enviromush thinking.

Not so, anarcho. Sticks and Stones....

Hey, Anarcho, the proponents of the 100-mile diet are absolute. No tropicals allowed, for they are Purer Than Thou. So please don't call me clueless. I, for one, read their articles, since evidently you don't.

You need to read their columns in the Tyee to find this out. Go to http://thetyee.ca/Series/2005/06/28/100Mile/

Right field

Cap, its all a socialist plot just like you said. We all got together at a nature retreat near Vegas, hatched up this whole global warming thing (while eating bananas and strawberries trucked in from really far away) paid off the world's scientists with fair-trade coffee and then came out swinging. All to bring down capitalism.

You found us out, guilty as charged. Geez, you're just too smart for us.

snert, I'm pretty sure that if you were honest you'd admit you even bored yourself with your posts.

Martin, that was an "experiment". Most people that believe in buying locally don't really want to grow their own cocoa beans, mill their own flour and build their own cars.

Cycling Commuter, do you get a subscription to Capitalism's monthly newsletter? Where do you get this stuff like the NDP supports marketing boards because there might be some truckers somewhere that might be unionized? You need to leave south Delta so you can stop breathing in all that fertilizer before you get to the point you're blaming Jack Layton and the unions for Canuck losses. But then again I think you're pretty much already there.

Welcome back Frank

That's the flavour I've been missing. Join me for a cup of that fair trade java.

I think Ron has spring fever, the crocuses are up in the provincial capital - you didn't happen to see that idiot John Baird in today's committee hearing did you?

I hope the NDP got some of that footage - it'll be gold when the election's called.

You gotta see what his idea of being non-partisan is all about.

THE RAT!!!

Im sorry but that rat comment was completely ridiculous maestro. Do you by any chance live in an urban area?

inkioko

In the path to eternal enlightment,(even for "lost cause" Lefties of ad nauseum causes) we must shed the biases and prejudices that deny us from partaking in the vast varieties of " daily bread " experienced globally.

In the spirit of the aforementioned and as a token of our good will, please access the following :

http://bertc.com/cooking_rats.htm

http://www.cooks.com/rec/search/0,1-0,rat,FF.html

Given the vast array of recipes there are , and the comments by some that it tastes somewhere between partridge and pork....and that if the French endorse it, it must be kosher, we'll put some serious consideration towards setting up as stand at the PNE.

TYEE commentors may get a 25% discount, and yes, of course, we will serve an Organic version.

Ciao and Chow

Rick W

Crab and Lobster...

Yep, delicious...

Reminds me of a good story ie an anecdote in a book written by a retired BC Coroner who discussed his career. This Coroner mentioned in his book a morgue attendant who also had a wicked sense of humour.

Bodies that were pulled out of water would at times have " certain large edible Dungeness crustaceans " as part of the body recovery package.

This morgue attendant would offer these large edible crustaceans as gifts to unwitting Media types...who apparently gladly accepted them .

I guess they didn't make the connection re: "source" ( most media types are Lefties anyway, and never question handouts , sort of a Leftie " right " of entitlement ).

Bottom feeders of the world unite !

Ciao and Chow

Crabby media

Glad to hear that maestro's "media types" were being fed crabs gorging on the bodies of murder victims. Hopefully these are Can-West media types we're talking about, or even better, tired old right-wing lefties that write drivel on here and then cry to their lone fan about the response on their own blog.

By the by maestro, I want to nominate your Rat story for the Bestest Red Herring Award. Its an honour that needs to be handed out more often, I think the previous winner was taxcutter99 who claimed all 12 year old girls are sluts and that's why we shouldn't have an early child-care policy.

And strangely taxcutter99 wasn't banned for that. Instead we call Coyote a mysoginist and ban him for always saying "good woman". Funny place this.

Frankly speaking ...Frank

In Ralph Nader fashion...ala " Unsafe at any Speed " I am simply adding to the debate , albeit perhaps from the more objective periphery (which Lefties tend to somehow avoid like the bubonic plague).

Now, I know the Lefties often feel that buxom Swiss maids named "Heidi" milk dairy cows,... Beethoven's 5th is broadcast live in slaughterhouses err "abattoirs " ,.... and farmers wear overalls and straw hats with a piece of hay held between their teeth while they run the plough horses as they read the Farmer's Almanac.

However, it is useful in expose' fashion to perhaps educate the Public on all the (real world) possibilities that may exist. However, as truly global citizens, and the universally acknowledged high reproductive capacity of rodents...this rodent -as -a-protein -source option may be a Win -Win situation for protein addicts.

We could also create a " Safe Protein Ingestion Addiction Site "...so protein addicts needs may also be met. We cannot subjectively pick and choose what IS and IS NOT an addiction...and our TYEE Lefties have made valuable contributions in this addiction debate and dialogue. Protein addiction affects everyone everywhere. In fact, most vegetarians I know look rather ill and pasty- faced.

C'mon Frank, we can't let the usual nice, banal, pastoral Leftie technicolor stereotypes cloud the objective discussions, can we ?

PS .....but we actually had an ORGANIC Turkey this past XMAS ..cost approx. $3 per pound... maybe it had pecked at a dead RAT , maybe not, but in my view, I couldn't really taste much difference between that and the other normal turkey option. BTW the Organic turkey came from Manitoba...go figure.

No you're not maestro

You're about the worst example of a global citizen I've ever run into...and you're welcome to all the rats you can corral. Shouldn't be much of a problem for you, they hang out with the garbage.

You're welcome. Pleased to see someone's pretending to tax cutter 99's title.

Alci:

( CLICK ON )

Really Alci: ...

Is that the best you got...?

Probably.

( CLICK OFF )

Slugs....mmmm mmm

Actually maestro, I grew up on a farm and our geese used to go down to a little marsh we had and gorge on slugs, frogs, snakes and other crawly things. When they didn't get into mom's (organic) garden of course.

They still tasted good and I'm pretty sure that meat would be called organic. Our cows ate grass all day and their milk and meat tasted pretty good too.

So I don't really give a rat's ass if chickens take a few pecks out of a rat. Its all good.

What I do object to is injections of antibiotics, turning cattle into meat eaters, keeping chickens for 6 generations in an unclean cage etc (Saw it on the CBC, it was in North Carolina)

Frank...

See ....?

....good....We're all back on the same page again.

Its like the old premise re: Hot Dogs...enjoy them, but one is best advised not to see what goes on behind the scenes in their overall production, from " farm -to -factory- to- retailer ".

Other issues: Like Blueberries...many may try to grow these "organically", but organic blueberries may be a carrier of a disease referred to as " Scorch " or Blueberry Scorch Virus (BISV)

Link:

http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/cropprot/blsv.htm

Note the "Aphid Control" via the Aphids as the transmission source and the advised use of " Aphicides "....and the double - edged Catch 22 consequences of Organic operations. Aphicides may negate Organic certification, and yet "pesticide- free" Organic blueberry operations may incubate and also exacerbate the "Scorch"/BISV problem.

This " Scorch " is perhaps not well- known but I have seen it first hand. Some farmers are forced to prune their bluebery bushes to ground level...with no berries for years.

Apparently Scorch also affects cranberries.

This "Scorch" issue will have a variety consequences on the Farm Tax Status front...another complication in the overall discussion. One theory out there is the Scorch/BISV- carrying Aphids result from land no longer economically viable for farming, it goes wild with indigenous trees, like birch...the aphids are attracted to these abandoned farms full of returning trees...then the Aphids migrate to adjoining blueberry fields.

Organic vs Non - Organic ...the devil, as always, is in the details.

Otto von Maestro

You realize you're paraphrasing what Otto von Bismarck said about the making of sausages over a hundred years ago?

Anyway, yes, the devil is in the details. However, if I've got the choice between organic and regular I'll buy the organic because I have a better idea of what goes into it. Doesn't mean that its 100% good for me or that the regular is 100% bad. Just means my comfort level pushes me towards organic.

In my opinion, once organic prices come down as they are trending already, I expect many more people will make the switch. Cost is still a major barrier for many.

Frank:

Sorry Frank;

...Otto was before my time...

Regardless, Otto's saying has been applied in many variations...I have heard the legal fraternity apply the same premise to the drafting of Laws .."Oh to be a fly on that legislative wall "

( BTW who invented that old gem about flies on walls?)

OTHERWISE : No problem Frank, " we'll defend to the death your right to Organic Food -fuelled Free Speech " .

PS Happy New Year..Good to see you back on the TYEE...and keep it coming.

100 Mile ethic + cranberries

Martin.

Actually anarcho is correct about the 100-mile ethic. If you paid attention to the whole series you'd see that the 100-milers do propose purchasing and preparing what you can from within 100 miles. They don't propose that the only way to live is to eat everything from within the boundary and if you don't you're a bad person and destroying the world.

They went on the 100-mile diet as an experiment in local eating to see if it was possible, and it is.

It always amuses me that these debates so quickly deteriorate into black and white. Left vs. right. There's lots of gray area here folks. Any thinking person would realize that eating close to home makes sense. Ecologically, nutritionally, and economically. But the way the food system is set up just doesn't make this practical. But change is a-comin'.

And a note on cranberries. Obviously trying to up the per capita cranberry consumption of British Columbians is a silly idea, but growing something else on those fields isn't. Last I checked there was exactly ONE independent cranberry farm in the Fraser Valley. The rest of the crops were contracted to Ocean Spray to be mostly sold as cranberry cocktail. You can bet that most of the profit from this product doesn't remain with the farmer or the community where the berries are grown.

A mixed food farm that sold to the surrounding area, including the GVRD would help create a vibrant community. Pretty simple.

And of course, then there's taste. Hothouse tomatoes look great, and taste like...water. Field grown heirloom tomatoes taste like...tomatoes.

Exactly!

Exactly. Most of what we discuss is beyond ideology, as Ed frequently points out. Such things as peace, the environment, democracy etc are things that concern all thinking people.(It is really ultimately about ethics!) We see this in the Tyee - from anarchists to an old time conservative like Rafe united in concern about these issues. The people who continually ideologize the question, who continually demonize the people concerned about these questions, do so from a narrow ideological stance of their own. This group is the authoritarian right. They oppose peace, oppose anything real being done about the environment, oppose the extension of democracy etc. Their tactic in doing so is to split these issues into a false dichotomy of left vs, right, with the left, of course demonized.

Wasn't you Martin!

I did not refer to you as being clueless. I was referring to The Clueless One, aka IAMC who stumbles into the conversation from time to babbling rubbing alcohol inspired nonsense.

In the Sun

borderlineschizo

Is that the farm on Barston Island that was written up in Wednesday's Sun, business section, page D2.

Seems there might also be a bit of a glut in the market as well.

Good to be here

Thanks, nice to get a welcome from someone on the Left and someone on the Right.

Unfortunately I have to leave again right away due to a family death so this is just a little drive-by participation.

Frank

Send me an email if you have a chance.

Good luck

Martin: Congrats ...so far is the closest.....

Think about it folks...

This typical Leftie BS about " trucks transporting food miles and miles " is chanted on and on and on ..the Big Lie theory in spades. What flavour was the last batch of Kool Aid?

That distance argument " may " hold up if the transportation of food products was arriving directly from the N-O-R-T-H, not from the SOUTH...

Think about it...

Prove that it is wrong then

Proof please????
And Martin has not constructed a logical argument. The straw man is a logically fallacy

Anarcho

C'mon dude, I know you're intelligent...

I gave ya a very loaded hint...

Didn't ya read any deeper into my " cranberry stats " comment posted above ?

Martin indicates to me he did .

Try again...

ALSO RE: "Proof"...sorry , but that rant and chant about " Trucking food hundreds of miles is BAD " is in the Top 5 blinkered and illogical rationales used so much its blowing holes in the ozone layer.

Still makes no sense

It still makes no sense to truck veggies from thousands of miles when they could be grown close to home Stuff that can't be grown close to home, OK. And I missed the cranberry bit

Anarcho:

One more hint...

What the M-A-I-N difference between NORTH vs SOUTH .

Vive la difference

The spelling?

Comp-ass ?

Frank:

A new Yuk Yuk's is 10 blocks " that way" ..(the Ocean is only 8 blocks in the exact same direction)...take your choice ....NORTH or SOUTH.

PS Careful, you are making your fellow neo-con's look bad.

yum-yum,corn fed beef.

Have you ever been seduced by a label on a nicely marbled steak stating that this is “corn-fed” beef? It sounds so nice and wholesome doesn’t it? Corn and soy provides the bulk of the diet of meat animals in the US, yet cows are ruminants, they are meant to eat grass, no soy. They have 4 stomachs that allow them to spin grass into high quality protein. All a cow needs to be happy, healthy and to produce healthy, and tasty meat is to be outside and grazing. So why aren’t they? Michael Pollan sums it up like this: “... because of the improvements in technology [after WWII] in American agriculture – specifically because of chemical agriculture, because of chemical fertilizer- we were able to get so much corn off the land that they didn’t know how to get rid of it. So the USDA made it its policy to encourage people to feed corn to cows.”

Feeding corn and soy to cows results in a host of problems resulting in the need to add daily doses of antibiotics to the feed to treat some of the illnesses that occur. Things like liver abscesses are a common occurrence among feedlot cattle. This, however, does not improve the health of the animal, it just prevents its premature death for a while, and in the meantime this animal is now creating antibiotic-resistant bacteria that then ends up in the human food supply.

There is another problem with feeding cows primarily grains; it acidifies their gut. Many bacteria that live in the gut of ruminants eating a grass-based diet are only used to the base environment of the inside of such a pastured animal. If those bacteria end up in the food supply they are easily killed in the more acidic environment of a human stomach. In a grain-fed animal however, the bacteria adapt to the more acidic conditions there and can leap species more successfully. One of these bacteria, a form of E.coli that has recently sickened many people, essentially does not exist in the gut of animals that eat grass, only in animals fed corn, states Eric Schlosser in his book Fast Food Nation.

Aside from inappropriate grain and soy, feedlot cows are also fed any or all of the following (all allowed by the FDA) feather meal, pig and fish protein, chicken manure and pesticide-laden citrus peels. To protect against the spread of mad cow disease, since 1997 the Animal Feed Rule prohibits adding most mammalian materials to ruminant feed. However, chicken litter and restaurant scraps (which both can contain bovine proteins) are still allowed and many calves are still fed bovine blood meal.

While they are being fed this concoction, designed to get them as heavy as possible as quickly as possible, they are standing thigh deep in their own waste creating an even bigger health problem. After slaughter, these cows are then hosed off using high pressure sprays, which, rather then clean the manure off the meat, imbeds it deeper into the muscle.

And that is just cows. Pigs and chickens are treated even worse. According to Sherri Brooks Vinton in The Real Food Revival: “[Chickens] are crammed so tightly into metal cages that they often resort to cannibalism out of the sheer stress of their living conditions. “Poultry breast are now so large that the birds can often not support their own weight.”

Anarcho Quote:It still

Anarcho

Have you ever tried to grow a full spectrum vegetable garden in the lower mainland?

We have a great growing season but when the June monsoon rolls in it can destroy a lot of hard work in short order.

There are a number areas in the lower mainland that are suited for truck farming but the risk is pretty substantial, hence the diminished number of operations.

Who knows, maybe with global warming these places may become profitable again before they get submerged eventually.

At the moment veggie growing in the lower mainland is best suited for supplemental in-season produce. I don't think we could ever use it as the main source for anything unless we adopt genetically modified mildew resistant seed or hothouse grown produce.

There is the possibility that marketing boards are stifling some production. We can produce way more dairy products than we consume and as this is a common problem in Canada so milk marketing boards have been spawned across the country.

Which is better a marketing board or a single buyer like Ocean Spray?

Very Interesting and informative woody

I had no idea you were such a prominent agriculturalist.

Too bad you hadn't thought it necessary to give a little credit to the person who actually wrote those paragraphs.

Perhaps you were waiting till later to let us know that those words, which really are interesting and contain valuable information we should all be aware of, were written by Tanya Carwyn in The Cherry Creek News and Central Denver Dispatch.

This whole conversation

This whole conversation reminds me of a passage from a novel I read long ago (I thought it was Slaughterhouse Five, but I checked and it wasn't) where Stok is explaining the principles of capitalism as it relates to the food market, going something like this...

"Capitalism is where the principle industry of a people in a village living on a crocodile-infested river keep themselves alive by wading into the river every day to catch tasty fish to eat, to preserve, and if there are any left over, to trade with the village down the river whose principle industry is the making of wooden legs."

I've never been sure if it was a condemnation or not, but many of the hallmarks of this conversation have the flavour of this passage.

Snert, I am old enough to

Snert, I am old enough to remember when a lot of our veggies were grown locally. The variation in the weather is a problem in all temperate climates, I believe, not just ours. Nor need we grow a full spectrum of things, just those that make sense to grow. I think it wrong to make this question an either/or situation, think of it more as a tendency, rather than some rigid determined process. As for marketing boards, I do not have the knowledge to comment on them one way or the other. All I can say is that I don't like that sort of bureaucracy but then again they can't be any worse than being the slave of some monster corporation.

Tomatoes ,Tah mah toes

My in-laws and a few others were the only serious gardeners that we knew personally and that we could later partake of the Fall Harvest of the Urban garden .

Many people had simply given up backyard gardening .

Tomatoes were often tough to grow , given the " blight " that would occur.

One neighbour had a trick.
He used to plant his tomatoes right up against the front wall of his 2 storey house, which faced EAST. Also, the tomatoes were directly under a 2 ft roof overhang. I hadn't seen this done before, and asked him what the rationale was.

He said that the tomatoes were kept drier by being located directly under the overhang, and it was lingering dampness on the tomatoe plants after rains etc. on the plant during the growing season that created the " blight" . He said he had very few problems, if any, using the aforementioned method.

However, on a commercial scale, tomatoes are " Risky business ". To obtain good non- hothouse ones yearly, we drive 200 MILES = 2 X's (100 MILES)

Woody:

Woody:

Good article: Thanks.

Every year we drive through the Fraser Valley and one can't help but notice the Agri-activities . If one excludes the livestock and dairy operations, it appears that the production of CORN is one of the , if not "THE" top crop up and down the valley.

Without getting into the details, I think its obvious the human body itself has a tought -time digesting corn.

Other crops tend to be hays, alfalfa etc. which are also used to feed livestock.

In addition I notice quite a few nursery operations which tend to serve the landscaping market.

I don't see much else grown out in the fields on a massive scale. Corn may be the top crop for many reasons, one of which is that corn appears quite durable and can still thrive in unpredictable spring/summer/fall weather.

Back to CORN... it is interesting that while corn is a " plant material ", and not a meat/protein byproduct which cattle have also been fed in the past,it is still not THE proper food for cattle...and the problems that apparently result from not feeding cattle a diet "natural" to them.

This may explain why E Coli tends to occur in larger scale meat processing operations. Apparently one common E Coli source was cross -contamination in the mass production process involving meat products ,ie one E Coli incident can quickly contaminate the rest of the often combined raw material sources in the production process. Perhaps the meat from one cow from one farm can ultimately contaminate other meat sources brought in from elsewhere.

However, smaller cattle operations apparently don't tend to have this problem . This may be due to the fact the herds are smaller, and the product is quasi-quarantined via no externally sourced = potentially contaminated product is mixed with it.

However, corn used as cattle feed can apparently also lead to eventual problems. Smaller cattle operations may not use any corn, but instead make much higher use of natural feeds, and subsequently far less E Coli etc. risk, .....which may also explain the lower E-Coli risk for the smaller scale cattle producers .

Zalm:

Good one..re: "Capitalism is....."

However, using the Jungle backdrop, let's extrapolate this analogy further.

The Village establishes itself, likely via a consensus of the group members no longer into a nomadic hunter gatherer lifestyle. Also, within the village, there are people of many different skills and ever increasing sophistication.

The local environment is very rich in food sources...and part of the environment is both (i) fish AND (ii)crocodiles. After a few unfortunate incidences via food acquisition, the Village democratically decides to engage in a technological advancement process.

One savvy entrepeneur produces nets... which creates a much lower risk methodology in which to acquire the prime food source.

Another entrepeneur comes to the major epiphany that crocodiles " may or may not taste like chicken " ,but are nonetheless edible, and markets them as " Swamp Cattle ". Now , another food source has been established, as well as more employment opportunities.

Now, as mentioned, the village is beginning the evolution into a sophisticated society and " democracy " is slowly but surely rearing its ugly head . Within that democracy is the concurrently evolving " Leftie " facet.

The Leftie facet begins to complain that the crocodiles are part of nature, and begin a campaign to boycott crocodile meat, not quite ackowledging that the amputation levels amongst their Village peers have dropped drastically.

Also newly unionized jobs in the neighbourng village which makes wooden legs for amputees are now threatened...ie the Leftie logic is " Save the Crocodiles!!! " and the sheer coincidence of Union jobs in the neighbouring village making wooden legs will be protected via increases in "au natural" amputations.

The Lefties also rant that the Local Health Care system is now under far less stress, and possible worker lay-offs resulting from this .

One of the Villages' wealthier elders offers the "Leftie" leaders a job building fast aluminum canoes, but the offer is refused.

The Leftie leader is never seen again, but their picket sign and union button is found in a crocodiles' belly.

However, it is noticed that the local crocodile meat is now tasting more and more "like chicken" with a bit of a sour taste.

The two Villages ended up merging very amicably.

Tanya Carwyn,

Alcibiades said

Your correct , the credit goes to Tanya Carwyn, somewhere in cyber space that information got lost, thanks for pointing this out, I apologize for this slip up.
Tanya Carwyn is a Certified Clinical Herbalist practicing in the greater Denver area. She lives in Littleton with her husband and their two daughters. She is currently setting up www.kitchenmuse.net, a website about Real Food for Real Health, Traditional Nutrition, Local and Seasonal Food, and how to incorporate those things into your busy lifestyle.
The Cherry Creek News and Central Denver Dispatch.

You are what you eat, eats

Jezzz, maybe, hopefully, this time I got all of Tanya Carwyn, site address and story,You are what you eat, eats

http://www.thecherrycreeknews.com/content/view/970/2

Growing Tah mah toes

Planting garlic amongst Tah mah toe plants keeps blights and pest to a minimum as well.

BTW, the "scenario" with fish, crocs, and lefties would never come to pass, as the rightista faction would eliminate the crocs immediately, using the hides and discarding the other bits. The luggage, purse and boot industry would flourish, until the last croc croaked, whereupon a depression would set in, whole industries would collapse, people would starve in the streets (the fish having been "sold" by the village leader to a foreign monopoly - which would deny access to the locals), and a rebel leader would emerge, promising the people justice and "two chickens in every pot"; would overthrow the corrupt leader, and peace and happiness would reign once again, the rightista scourge having been banished once and for all time.

Petty and Unintelligent Debate

As much as I like to read the alternative viewpoints in both the stories and feedback of the Tyee, I find it tiresome to see this great forum degenerate into silly polarized shouting matches. Particularely on this issue, half of you don't even understand much about agriculture beyond what you learn at the Super Mega store or get from Fraser Institute or PETA talking points. Lets raise the level of debate here and actually learn something!

Think Globally, Act Locally

What more is there to know?

Slaughterhouse Flave?

I know that the novel was thoroughly enjoyable (whichever one it was), and taught me a lot about the conflict between various world-views.

On the other hand, Maestro's version will never be a best-seller. Dry as a textbook and badly in need of a ghostwriter. Say, where's Elliott anyway?

I'm surprised nobody's reminded me of the title or author yet. This is a very well-read bunch. (Well, most of us, anyway.)

I'm surprised nobody's reminded me of the title or author yet.

Zalm said, I'm surprised nobody's reminded me of the title or author yet.Give it another 5 minutes Zalm, Im sure Alky will be right on it.

Zalm:

C'mon Zalm....we all appreciated your Fantasy Gardens...

" Look for the Big Windmill ....you can't miss it ".

Faaantaaastic !

Are ya going turncoat ?

PS the book and movie offers are pouring in...maybe HollyWood rightista's Alec Baldwin and Woody Harrelson in lead roles...
" I love the smell of crocodile meat with a hint of chicken flavour in the morning ".

Rick W

Thanks for the garlic tip.

Also what makes you think the crocodile tale wasn't a true story ?

Careful.... People may think you are a Leftie-ista.

How awful.

====================

Zalm:
"Errata"

Re: your comment " This is a very well -read bunch ".

Spelling and Punctuation error !

"This is a very , well, RED bunch."

Yer mother eats army boots

I hate to interrupt such a nice tangent with anything so uncapitalistically on-topic, but...

Hasn't anybody tasted these Mexican tomatoes? There're a lot of them in the stores now. I dispute the idea that they have any quality at all.

They are in fact nothing but a new variety of cardboard crap tomatoes. They are the same 2" fruit on the same vines, but they are clearly picked green and hard, then dyed red just before marketing. No aroma, no flavor, a waste of space in a salad or a sandwhich, and $3.99 a pound on top.

They are in fact exactly like those square nitrogenated beefstakes the Mexicans came up with a few years ago. Green tomatoes dyed red. They fried alright, but even fried never developed any flavor to speak of.

Local greenhouse tomatoes, when they ARE local, have been a real treat. Much higher quality than anything previously on offer anyplace but a farm stand in summer.

These greenish Southern marbles, however, are definately not.

Our " In Sight " Tomato Fix

We get our yearly BULK tomato fix from a Ma and Pa place in the Fraser Canyon called HILLTOP Gardens, which is between Spences Bridge and Cache Creek.

They are grown on site on a 1 - 2 acre patch of the overall small scale farm , which is diversified in what it offers .

Sometimes one is lucky, other times not in acquiring them. It all depends on the growing conditions as to when they are ripe.

Excellent tomatoes , but limited availability , and grown in a semi- arid area of BC.

Not just Trucking

Back to the issue of imported food and GHG / Global Warming, its not just transport that sucks up the oil. All synthetic nitrogen fertilizer, most pesticides / herbicides, irrigation power, tractor fuel etc is fossil fuel derived. We've got a far bigger issue with industrial food as peak oil hits than just GHG.

maestro

My croc story or your croc story.......? Of course I'm a "left-ista"....most people are.

BIG RED JUICY TOMATOES

For lovers of big red tomatoes, A few years back I was visiting a friend in the interior . While sight seeing the local area we came upon what my friend said was a storage, disposable site,pond for the septic tank cleaning contractors, surprisingly there wasn’t a offensive odor about the place, even though it was quite warm. I noticed all about the outside edge of this site was ringed with large tomato vines, with large ripe tomatoes. When I question my friend as to the growth of this splendid looking tomatoes, he pointed out to me that the plants had grown from the septic sludge, and were all more than likely contaminated .The moral to my story , if you eat a tomato and should it taste sh!ty, maybe it came from one of these sites, maybe.

A carbon trader who lost her faith

"They're expecting us to exchange Canadian dollars for Zellers coupons," she said.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/financialpost/story.html?id=0ce154d7-6d47-44f3-b0c3-64cc9b6b9277

Rick W

Quote:

Rick W

" Of course I'm a left-ista...most people are "

Now ,as Truman would say " That IS funny."

Always thought those elections were fixed Rick W, this bears much closer scrutiny .

What do ya think is going on ?

Woody:

Woody:

Yeah, I heard about that type of tomato :

It's called a Leftie variety ...

" RED " , (over)RIPE , and Full of SH!TE .

Kyoto tomato

maestro, unlike the Liberal grown bull sh!t tomato, these are the Kyoto sh!t house grown tomato, and can only be purchased with Zellers coupons.

Now ,as Truman would say " That IS funny."

You walk on a public sidewalk, you are a socialist; you drink publicly provided tapwater, you are a socialist; you pay for a publicly funded military, you are a socialist; on and on and on

Toe -May -Toes

Several weeks ago, a Vancouver Province reporter discussed the proliferation of commercial food production greenhouses we see in certain areas of the GVRD.

I had noticed the trend several years ago in our yearly trips up and down the Fraser Valley.

If memory serves me correct, one of the commercial greenhouse pioneers was the major greenhouse operation off Langley's Glover Road...BEVO farms.

Later, the Delta area around Boundary Bay also had large commercial food producing greenhouse facilities constructed over the past several years.

Apparently, according to the Province article, these BC commercial greenhouse pioneers were Dutch ex- patriate farmers who had similar commercial greenhouse operations in the Netherlands, but were apparently displaced by the need for their land for non - Agri uses. They saw opportunities here in BC and appparently brought their expertise and investment.

While these greenhouse are not exclusive to Boundary Bay...apparently this area was chosen due to factors such as more sunlight on average and temperate climate etc.

In addition, the food production from these commercial greenhouses is literally an order of magnitude ie 10 X's or more compared to what would be achieved otherwise on the same land with no greenhouses.

These greenhouses produce many different green - grocer/food products...As far as their " taste " , that's always a personal subjective choice.

One can't have one's Tah-Mah-toes or Toe-May-Toes and eat it too. Yes, some of the food produced in the greenhouses is rather bland, however others ,in my own view, taste fine .

The more "au naturale'" versions of greenhouse production may simply be too expensive and impractical to produce food cost effectively. As I said in my earlier post..the small farm we visit yearly has about a 2-3 week window for "au naturale" tomatoes ...and this same farm does not focus on tomatoes, it may go broke relying on them, the tomato crop appears very fickle.

Also...RE: HUMAN NATURE : People will drive blocks to save .5 cents a litre on gas, and will cringe on prices of other items such as " produce " as well.

Conclusion: = we don't have a problem buying the commercial greenhouse food, and will also buy so -called "farm fresh" if and when it is available. However, we simply can't rely on local au naturale food production, the season is both very short and fickle. That's our choice.

the season is both very short and fickle

Greenhouses (have the potential to) create both length and stability, for any number of foodstuffs. The big question is heat source more than anything.

Rick W

Socialism:

No actually, I D-R-I-V-E on the sidewalk as a freedom of expression provided by a Democracy....don't real Socialista Lefties drink bottled water? (BTW...given the non overlapping health regulations tap water is tested many time daily, bottled water apparently only needs testing a few times a year) ..... and the military helps keep the COMMIES out.

C'mon Rick W...seriously ....do you think a NON Socialist Gov't would NOT provide sidewalks, tap water and military ?

I guess Socialism , simply because it exists, takes credit for everything. Yep!

So... Socialism helped the BC Lions win this year( we all felt the glow of victory ), made Canucks a contender, takes credit for whacking Stanley Park (we all suffered the pain as equals).

Socialism's so - called existence implies that we would not have had any advancement in democracy and civilization...( Non - Socialism takes no credit?) when in fact there is far more evidence to the contrarian argument.

Again, that IS funny !!!

However, you are right to some degree, when I see a dog crapping on the sidewalk or peeing on the hydrant (also full of tap water) , then I DO think Socialism.

Rick W: Re Heat

Every been in a solarium in someone's home ?

My in-laws built one years ago...they took their back porch , enclosed it, had a clear Hi tech plastic /PVC ceiling and it faced NORTH.

This room was very warm, almost hot... all times of the year, even winter.

The amount of heat these types of solariums and greenhouses create and maintain naturally without external heat sources is quite impressive. Much of the viability of these operations is dependent more on Mother Nature's sunlight for heat and photosynthesis than any artifical means.

One reason "produce prices" are so high in the winter months is that local commercial greenhouse production shuts down due to colder months and short days. ie not cost effective.

I would think that was obvious.

RickW

There's degrees of socialism on this planet. Ants and bees represent one extreme and the US the other. However they really aren't that far removed from the ants and bees just in denial. The very word makes their hearts start to palpitate.

A problem

The thing is several people here don't seem to really understand what "socialism" means. They reduce it to state socialism, which is like reducing all of sex to masturbation. By the way if statism is socialism, the the US is actually highly socialist with its vast schemes of corporate welfare, corporate laws and entitlements, trillion dollar "defense" racket, police-prison industrial complex etc. If you guys want to know about socialism, other than just as a stupid right wing swear word, if you ask nicely I can tell you as 19th and 20th centuruy social movements are my field of study

There's degrees of socialism on this planet

That just about says it all. Ain't too many people out there who don't embrace some socialist aspects. Marriage is socialism in practice. So is raising kids.

Just about everybody expects the law to be funded out of the public purse. Come to think of it, taxes themselves are socialism, as well the enforcement of a single currency.

A "pure" capitalist (assuming that capitalism is the other side of the coin that is socialism) would in fact be much closer to an anarchist, in that, (s)he would naturally be inclined to respect the predilections of those (s)he deals with, until some ad hoc common ground is reached, in order to be able to do business.

Rick W

Rick W:

Re: the morphing and overlaps of politics and political labelling:

True, but I can also make equally valid arguments that Socialists are capitalists and neo -cons, perhaps moreso(...and maybe a wee bit of vice - versa thrown in there too).

Anarcho:

I think I'll let Woody comment first on the 2nd sentence on your last post titled "A problem " (....the part with STATE SOCIALISM highlighted in bold print) he's far quicker on the upbeat....I'm ROTFLMAO.

That was a B-E-A-U-T-Y !!!!

You are right Rick!

A "pure" capitalist (assuming that capitalism is the other side of the coin that is socialism) would in fact be much closer to an anarchist...

There is a school that claims to be anarchist called "anarcho-capitalism" Mainstream anarchists don't think much of them as it would maintain the authoritarian relationships (boss-worker) in the workplace as well as tending to overlook the social aspects of existence. Bu, of course, I would vastly prefer our righties to become anarcho-caps than remain neocons, since the former are anti-war and anti-empire as well as favoring treating drug addiction as a social rather than a criminal problem.
See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism

BC Tomatoes

The fact s about so-called BC tomatoes came to our attention several years ago in Kona. Very proud to see BC tomatoes on sale we found on looking closer that they were grown in the US. Somehow we felt cheated--- the name was jus a registered trade name and meant nothing.