The Corporate Communists will bleed the environment dry for a profit. The problem is unabashed capitalism and globalization, leading to a massive consumption of goods by people who do not have the money to pay for it. The viscious circle continues by people working harder and longer to earn money to pay for goods on credit, but buying more, creating a demand for more production, more consumption, more pollution and the song goes on!

It is just not the political system that needs changing, but how we view ourselves and the environment. Too many people believe completely that the earth is theirs to do as one wishes. Not so. We still abide by natures rules and nature is ruthless when it downsizes.

We must change now, or face the dire consequences.

Wealth can not be created, only taken from other sectors, the environment and the future.

Costs can not be cut, only transferred on .......

Enviromental destruction is the result of "wealth creation" and cost transfers, legalized by the fraudulent definition of economic efficiency in the neoclassical market economy theory and licenced by the deregulated money creation powers of the banks, owned by a special interest sector, and used for its own benefit.

....and the devil may take tomorrow.

The only thing that matters are increased quarterly "earnings" to sate the insatiable appetite of the stock and money markets.

In other words, the biggest crime wave in history, taught in our universities as "economics".

Ed Deak, Big Lake.

all say it again - Canada is an elected monarchy not a representational democracy - which allows for various interests to have undue influence on policy.

PS. I hope Rafe remembers the days when Flyin' Phil Gaglardi was preaching that : "The Lord put the coal just under the surface so we can open pit mine it" and "Pollution is the sweet smell of money"

Ed Deak.

An interesting metaphor and a new one to me.

Surely you meant 'cap'?

Though the environment is supposed to be the big story, the lack of posts indicates not many give a damn. Sad. We live in interesting times, just a nuke away back to the stone age.

If a major catastrophe happens, who will survive? Katrina was a good indication how bureaucratic ineptness can delay much needed aide. It an open fact that New Orleans was about 3 days away until major loss of life were to happen from illness, dehydration and starvation.

Imagine, here in Vancouver, if Mexican or Californian food were not to arrive to feed us? If power were to be off for weeks? If a major death episode brings the whole orginisation of government to a halt?

Can't happen you say? don't bet on it!

" The Environment" is like the Weather:

E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E talks about it , but N-O-B-O-D-Y does anything about it...

PS .....and they(The Environment and Weather) are connected as well, aren't they ?

We continue to elect individuals who subscribe to the philosophy that it's permissible to lie to one's constituency in the service of...[insert standard of utility, e.g. 'profit', 'the greatest happiness of the greatest number', etc.]]. Utilitarianism isn't unique to any one party or political philosophy, but it seems to be a necessary tactic to survive in our current political system. Idealists don't survive.

Part of my point is that a 'different democracy' or different electoral system won't necessarily change the results. We need individuals with different ethics than the ones we're electing right now. And this problem isn't confined to any one segment of the political spectrum. Union politics can be as cutthroat as any right-wing organization....

Another thing having a serious impact is the shift in public values over the last 30 years, (which corresponds to the Right's deliberate attempt to steer debate regarding notions of public good, relative to notions of private property). Many members of the public take it as axiomatic that government is an inherently evil force; and that laws, regulations and taxation are somehow imposed upon them from some dark external place (Ottawa ;-), outside of the populace.

Without some sort of consensus that it's occasionally OK for collective interests to trump those of individuals, the sort of reforms Rafe is speaking of will never get off the ground. Wacky Bennett found this notion perfectly reasonable, but those who aspire to his lineage have discarded the idea, or bastardized it for a different set of collective interests, e.g. big business.

I should add that we need consensus that it's OK for the collective interest to trump those of shareholders as well, and that governments require the courage and public support to follow through on that.

I was watching the documentary Who Killed the Electric Car last night. After it was over I felt sickened and despondent over the irresponsible behavior of the parties involved in the tragic demise of this seemingly successful venture (the EV1). I woke up today to read the news of GM's introduction of the Volt, a new electric driven car that I believe they intend to put into production. It's almost exhilarating to think that a change for the good is being led by the likes of GM. Could it actually be true that American ingenuity will be responsible for producing a product that could have a profoundly positive impact on our global environment? This is a terrific indicator of the power that a large segment of society can have on corporate decision making. If enough people push for alternatives corporations will have to take note, less they lose out on a potential market. This is the first good news I have heard on the environmental front for a long, long time.

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/07/detroit-auto-show-its-here-gms-plug-in-hybrid-is-the-chevy-v/

I'm sure we the indicators of humanity's/society's next great collapse would be noticable. The end can't be pretty. There would be unprceidented environmental damage, pollution where we live, loss of food, and inequities in wealth distribution bringing us to near revolution and... Pardon me? I'm sorry, never mind.

The spirit is correct but the usage of "elected monarchy" is not. Canada is more of a Plutocracy given the role and relationships of the "elites" and the money.

In my opinion, the reason we continue to race towards the edge is because our system is intrinsically corrupt. As Rafe mentioned, the problem is our economic system where shareholders get the profits but are not responsible for the price of those profits. Secondly, few people are going to invest in an environmentally-friendly company if they can get a better return somewhere else.

The result is a rape of our environment and there is nothing we can do about it without changing the system itself.

As for the power of government, history shows political structures exist to protect the status quo, not change it.

The world will be saved when doing the right thing trumps the profit-motive. Which will never happen.

Frank

Yes it is a bleak outlook Frank. I agree with your statements regarding our economic system. I do not support the unfettered capitalism that exists today. I think the laws that were enacted enabling corporations to exist as a kind of quasi person should be repealed. I think legislation should be enacted that mandates corporations into accepting responsibility for their actions rather than encouraging them to offload externalities onto the public. Corporations should not be allowed to exist whereby the only responsibility they have is a fiduciary one obligating them to maximize the return on profits to their shareholders. Call it capitalism with a conscience. As it exists today capitalism is irresponsible at a global level and only benefits a small segment of our society who have grown obscenely rich at the expense of the rest of us.

I agree wholeheartedly with Frank.

I am a pessimist in the sense that I believe that the changes that ought to come to a) make the lives of coming generations anywhere near as comfortable as our lives, or b) to stop the horrible, needless suffering and death of humans and nature around the globe taking place right now - these changes will not come about soon enough, or in a big enough way, for reasons above posters have stated (but I'd like to make a quick, special mention of a particularly harmful sector of big business - the mass media, which no one above seems to have singled out yet, in their comments - but the mass media's need to profit from the richest advertisers trumps their ability to ask certain important questions and try to answer them deeply and responsibly for public consumption.)

I spite of these feelings, I still believe that "trying to make things better" is still how I want to spend a lot of my time, possibly in the face of most logic.

I commend everyone posting here and urge everyone who feels the way I do to(continue to) convert your frustration into, first, stronger knowledge, followed by the best tangible actions you can conceive. (I am also a hypocrite, because I still drive a car and am not spending as much time as I could engaged in activism, etc. but I don't let that stop me from trying to preach a little, as I'm doing now, and to the converted, no less!)

It's probably all pointless to try to make things better, given human history up till now, but if we're determined to try anyway, and we're smart, hopefully still let ourselves feel very good about the fact that we tried as hard as we could. And then again, maybe it's not pointless; we'll never know until we try.

Good luck!

While it's grand to see so much wonderful intent expressed in this forum, who is stepping forward to answer the call to action (expressed in the first post)?

All the above eloquence accomplishes zero in the way of institutional reform. From where will the young, dynamic leader emerge who can galvanise this force? If not here, then where?

Sounds as if we are all ready for large-scale change and sacrifice, even. Who will ask this of is?

The clock is ticking down our return to the polls (at all levels) - will there be an alternative to the status quo or will we only have Tyee forums to vent frustration?

Re Documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car",(WKTEC) etc.

I also watched it.
Quite interesting and I found it relatively objective .

However, let's look beyond Michael -Moore type conspiracies.

Such vehicles require electrical power. The documentary was based in California. A few weeks back I posted a chart which showed which raw resources most of the US uses to create power, and only a small percentage is produced via hydroelectric.

Much of the electrical power is created from fossil fuel ie coal -fired plants...this is called the LONG Tail-Pipe premise ...the pollution is created elsewhere, still created regardless , but the public perception is that it comes out of the wall's electrical socket,... therefore the power is clean. No, not really. More demand for power = more pollution.

The other issue that came forward is the limited range of the vehicles, , and I recall only double digit mileage numbers were suggested. This further suggests that people that commute longer distances should not or will not purchase them ie with reliability issues. They will thus still prefer fossil -fuel burning vehicles. However, a vehicle on the road is still a vehicle on the road, gas or electric, and do we simply encourage more gridlock.

Finally, this made me think about Tobaccco,..not just the pollution they cause, but the sin taxes historically collected etc. Why doesn't Gov't just outright BAN smoking, given all the undeniable health concerns...which impact us all , directly or indirectly? Well, the politics are that 95% of Candian Tobacco production is in ONTARIO, and quite simply, the Gov't is addicted to the revenue of the Tobacco taxes, much like it is via the fossil fuel taxes....

Otherwise I agree, "follow the money" ,but BOTH (i) Private and (ii) even MORESO PUBLIC(Gov't).

After all Gov't really is IS collectively made up of each of US, and we collectively are its largest shareholders...correct?

I can't agree that all multinationals are irresponsible polluters. I just read Jared Diamond's Collapse which illustrated many companies who were irresponsible, but also documented Chevron's responsible conduct in New Guinea.
Personally, I like the idea of the air car, but even that requires electricity to compress the air it runs on.

Exactly, Maestro. The energy to make, not only the electricity, but also all of the components of the vehicles must come from hydrocarbon fuels, and the polution has to happen, depending upon whether the natural gas and coal (to fire electricity-generating plants) can be burned 'cleanly,' employing C02'capture' techniques -- (sequestration, perhaps)--or not.

The entropy in our civilization is that it is 'top heavy' with wealth -- (2% own 50% of the wealth), and we as members of the wealthy countries are too GREEDY to abtain an unnecessary share of the wealth.

So when a Mayan-type epitaph is finally written for the demise of the industrial era, it might just be attributed to greed--from the tricky global bankers who insist on inventing methods to get their share of every loan ever written (debt slavery), to even middle class Canadians who insisting on driving $40,000 vehicles in Canada while their neighbours in Africa live on less than a dollar a day.

You wanna help? Stop eating meat. According to the United Nations meat production is more responsible for atmospheric degradation and global warming than driving cars.

Okay, I take back the nasty things I've said about Rafe Mair in the past now that he's growing "lefter and lefter". I take this phrase to mean that he has been awakened by what's really going on. We need to act like like citizens of the planet now, quit our moaning,take government by the throat and shake them till they govern (God help us) the planet rather than the economy. (Although both can be done still I think.)

Many have always somehow assumed that the elected elite are in the business to take care of important matters - and us. Now that it is apparent that we have sold ourselves down the river through a complacent kind of democracy, what can we do to take it all back and save something for our kids and grandkids (or selves, if you like)? Lots! Revolution, if necessary.

Suggestions to come.... But first, a word from a few who will go on about things that don't matter anymore.

First snow on us here today in eastern Canada. January 8th. Washed away by rain in the mid-afternoon.

Along the lines of Dolphin's political party posted elsewhere and previously.

I will propose the " ABSTINENCE FROM MODERN SOCIETY CHALLENGE "

We will start at the Left side of the Political spectrum (it's only polite and apropos too)....

One must live in thine Mountain Equipment Co-op tent and other survivalist equipment (or from Canadian Tire if no other choice ) for 6 months starting in rainy season ie NOVEMBER...

No vehicle allowed other than what can be self propelled...ie a bicycle.

Cannot eat meat,.... must rely on local /organic non -meat products.

NO electricity allowed.

NO heat allowed other than (i) your choice of recycled clothes bought from Thrift stores and from (ii) burning of materials that don't pollute.

Window shopping to watch TV shows/Canucks games is deemed cheating.

No external assistance from any Public of Private Entity .

Report back in 6 months, with a possible extension (and remember, NO cheating)

PS I can see the line- up now....

Are there allowances for kids? Can we start a bit slower like maybe:

-Change your light bulbs
-Demand that your taxes help pay for conversion to more energy effecient systems and up (or down) grades
-Share for God's sake! Why do we all need washing machines and lawnmowers?
-Burn the second vehicle. No, wait.... don't burn it. Recycle it. Build a doghouse with it. No wait....
-Give up the capitalist dream. It's all done now. If you keep collecting furniture, it will be the first we confiscate and burn to heat or cook.
-Just give it up. Quit. Shut down the economy for corporations in any way you can. Demand something else.

Incremental change needs to speed up.

O'Leary;

See..way to go!!!! .....It's ALWAYS the little things that add up.

...like Toilet Paper...one only uses one side...therefore 50 % is technically wasted .
SOLUTION: Use BOTH sides.

...or Underwear... why wash them, as you implied,
SOLUTION: simply turn them inside -out and thus wear it twice as long between washings.

Telling who complies with the aforementioned should be very obvious, and will also undoubtedly lessen Global Warming... etc. etc. ....correct?

Again, I can already see the line - up getting even longer now....its like a Boxing Day sale...(oops, err, that's a bad analogy, that's consumeristic naughty -naughty...)

Okay, now you're just being goofy. I would rather go without underwear than wear it inside out. You know, like Britney, but without celebrity or a boob job.

Is it proper, do you think, to assassinate those who do not share? I'm not sure myself, but global warming may well come down to that.

Then again, this may be just be part of my collective memory of the potato famine wherein the beef (and surviving potatoes) were shipped to England.

I don't mean to be flippant here. It would be more than that to shut down the malls and declare that we don't need as much as we think we do. And agree on one block to buy a lawnmower and set up a schedule. (If we can't give up the lawn yet.)

Large parts of Canada can not produce any other food than meat, which can be done in a very energy, feed and water efficient and environmentally friendly ways.

We're doing it and anybody's welcome to check it out.

The problem starts when we sell our cattle to the feedlots, which are huge, environmental and economic disaster areas, but forced on the producers and the consumers by the conspiracy of big business.

Ed Deak.

Pro rep does not bring democracy to anyone any where, anytime.
Neither does the winner take all that we have now.
And that mistake called BC STV, well thank God that never got in because it would have been worse than what we have now.

Perhaps a system of recall that was attainable (not easy, just attainable), along with the party whips position being abolished along with the need to vote party lines.
Right now, if the government loses a vote, we have an election. Fix the term and make EVERY vote in the house a free vote.
And make every piece of legislation accessable to the voter in an initiative format that is BINDING on the legislature to impliment. Meaning, our MLA's should be nothing more than stewards of our interests instead of power mad maniacs that get elected and foget who we are, as is so many times the case.
I don't believe that the collect body of voters are stupid. In fact, just the opposite. Given the facts from both sides of a debate, the majority of voters will choose the right things.
The Greens haven't elected anyone because generally, the majority don't trust them or are flatly afraid of them. I'm one.
But to say that they don't know what is perhaps right is lunacy.
We need to put the politicians on a very short leash and be prepared to give it a tug to reign in their uncontrolled zeal at serving themselves at everyone else's expense.
Yes, at first we would likely have some successful recalls at first along with a few initiatives too. I would expect nothing less. But as soon as people saw that it was for real and possible, voters in general and MLA's in particular would pay closer attention to what was going on, and the MLA's would likely pay more attention to what you thought before they said yeah to anything in the house.
Moderation and divesting of power would fix things I'd bet.
vhoofpreacher at hotmail dot com

The world will be saved when doing the right thing trumps the profit-motive. Which will never happen.

posts Frank

First I agree that nothing will change unless the 'bottom-up' approach is taken and the 'power' returns to a source closer to 'the people'.

Second the 'saving' is going on now, in small ways as there is a greater gain to be had from efficiency over power (or size). In many ways it is the smaller nations and companies that are able to react more efficiently that will prevail over the conditions coming in the future. Doubly so once we all start 'buying greener'.

Keep at the battle Rafe, as you had started - not so long ago - when it comes time to vote remember the environment, it is yours to loose!

The clock is ticking down our return to the polls (at all levels) - will there be an alternative to the status quo or will we only have Tyee forums to vent frustration?

opines tpgenus,

first, it will take a large-scale statement of the only 'franchise' left to us. DO NOT VOTE FOR ANY OF THE BASE LINE FEDERAL PARTIES, neither LIEberal, CONformer, or Non-DP. Even the Greens seem to have 'questionable' advisors. This means voting independant, or with a real 'fringe' party. Will enough of the Canadian sheeple ever do this?

If you do not have an Inde candidate on your ballot with the deadline approaching, then BECOME THAT CANDIDATE or at least support someone in that capacity!

There are likely only 2 or 3 more elections left before the 'digital evolution' overcomes us and we loose access to even that basic input...

neat idea maestro, where do I cash in my shares?

Hi tpgenus,

This is from Neil Young's CD "Living with War"

Someone walks among us
And I hope he hears the call
And maybe it's a woman
Or a black man after all

America has a leader
But he's not in the house
He's waling here among us
And we've got to seek him out

Yeah we've got our election
But corruption has a chance
We got to have a clean win
To regain confidence

Yeah, maybe it is more complicated than that tp, but it has to start with the recognition that we need a good leader. People then need to demonstrate (or however they choose to bring their voices forward) to promote the political will to make the change happen...

I am not sure what it will take tp, but, as it is, the system isn't "working" for the good of the Earth, and therefore us the way it is being run now. We are on a destructive path. So somehow, it must be changed.

We need someone who believes this, to lead people who want this, but until that happens, we need to work within our sphere of influence to promote change, and it is for each of us to define how we promote this change...

Bear :-)

Frank:

The result is a rape of our environment and there is nothing we can do about it without changing the system itself.

Good post Frank, and well worth reading again...

Bear

Yes maestro. The statistics regarding the sources of energy used for the production of electricity are quite startling. In the US coal fired generating plants are by far the largest producer of electricity followed by nuclear and natural gas respectively. So it would seem that the real focus should be on creating alternate means of generating electricity and reducing consumption rates. I think the direction of your statement is that we're going to burn the fossil fuels anyways so why bother switching from what we are already doing. I'm not an expert on this but I would assume an electrical engine is a far more efficient and less complicated power plant that a conventional internal combustion engine. So there are benefits there. One of the points of the movie was that car producers would loose revenue from the huge auto parts industries if the conversion to electric cars caught on. There always seems to be resistance from those who benefit from an existing technology when it comes time to abandon what has become arcane and outmoded.

The new GM car the Volt uses a small 3 cylinder, 1 litre gas powered engine that acts as a generator to power a lithium ion battery pack that in turn powers a 161 hp electric motor that drives the car. So the range that the car can drive without needing to refuel is quite extensive. Furthermore, the gas engine only kicks in if it needs to charge the batteries. If you travel less than 40 miles a day as most commuters do, you might never need to even dip into your gas tank. Just plug it into an outlet in your garage when you get home and you'll be ready to go in about six hours. It may not be the perfect solution, we will still have the problem of too many cars on the road. But there are obvious solutions to that issue if only our politicians had the will to implement the plans that forward thinking scientists and urban planners put forth.

You speak of the tobacco industry and the heavy reliance the government has on collecting taxes from the revenues this industry generates. But you did not mention the other side of the ledger. What about the costs the government incurs from tobacco related diseases. The taxes are there mostly to pay for the health care burden this industry places on society. So, I assume you are alluding to the fact that the government would not want to see these vehicles on the road as they would lose tax dollars from decreased consumption of gas at the pump. But again there is a health benefit as there would be almost negligible emissions from these vehicles and hence a decrease in respiratory aliments and the like that occur as a result of smog. I do not know the tax structure involved with electrical generating facilities. As you point out the gas is going to be consumed by either the public in their conventionally powered ICE vehicles or at the power plants when the surge in electrical demand occurs as more of these electric cars get on the road. So I would expect tax revenues to be made up by increased gas tax revenues from the power plants. At any rate, as I mentioned previously, I am encouraged that steps are being taken by a major US corporation in a direction that makes sense to me at least.

tp genus:

Now this is a major problem! With the average Canadian just two paycheques away from bankruptcy (I read that somewhere), who exactly perceives themselves ready to sacrifice what they have come to believe are essentialities?
"Not I," said the Duck.
"Not I," said the Cat.
"Not I," said the Dog.
http://www.bres.boothbay.k12.me.us/wq/nnash/WebQuest/little_red_hen.htm
The "average" Canadian sees corporate interests as "raking it in". So why not have corporate interests do the big sacrifice. Then, when we see how earnest they are, why we can just jump right in......

Maestro et al:
http://www.discover.com/issues/nov-01/features/featlovin/

One of our major problems with the political system is the "professionalization" of the job. We the people no longer have 'control' but have lost out to the candidate whose only goal in life is to be a politician. Yes there are those who run and succeed with the correct motive but then are 'punished' by the leader for not being a team player. Classic example right here in BC with the Premier exercising the power of a Czar or should we dare say a Stalin.

Rafe's title: "why Nature is a looser" bothers me.
Nature has lost there is no doubt and will continue to suffer.

But the "winners" are...? Me and you? the politicos? CEOs of big business?

If things get bad enough in the short term maybe irate citizens will drag CEOs and politicians from their offices and "tar and feather" them.

Trouble with that scenario is: it ain't gonna get bad enough soon enough. The poor dummy who eventually gets punished by the frenzied mob will very likely be new at the job and trying very hard to do it correctly. The guilty will (like Pinochet) die in their sleep beleiving they did their part to "maintain stability".

Canadians have a long way to go before they "Man" the barricades: fat people don't make good revolutionaries and neither do fit people who exercise all the time.

we have the resouces. we need some strong housekeeping in place to ensure the place is still livable while we use them

Nature ain't a "loser". Nature never loses. Species come and go (the concensus is that some 99% of all the species ever created? evolved? mutated? have gone extinct in the history of the Earth)and ol' Mom Nature never blinked an eye. Beside, she's got infinite patience (not to mention ways that should frighten the bejeezuz out of us)........

maestro: Your reference to the "Dolphin Party" is noted. Your posts are really funny and super intelligent. Are you an accountant?

clubofrome: No...I am not

clubofrome:

No...I am not an accountant....LOL

KitsCommuter:

The subtlety is that "perhaps" the electric car could have the bugs worked out in say...5 years... for arguments sake. Lets say the costs were on par with a conventional fossil fuel engines.

Great!!!! Right????

The UBER Great Mega Corporation (ie Gov't/Big Brother et al) would have quite a shock to the system, its $$$ life -blood called taxes would not hemmorhage, it would in fact starve. Its gas tax etc. revenue source would shrivel. It now needs money to make up this revenue deficit.

Hence one point is the MAJOR revenue transition for GOV'T , not simply just the Consumer, not necessarily just the energy companies.

This will be a M-A-J-O-R transition ...especially for Gov't .

(ALSO Congrats, you picked up on the Tobacco $$$ "hint", which was much of what I was alluding to).

The OTHER issue is how do you tax electricity? Gas pumps are easily taxed...they are specific, the volume is registered, Gov'ts get THEIR cut . However, power is delivered to your home through ONE meter base to your electric panel and distributed throughout the house via the circuits....ONE of which may charge your electric vehicle.

Question:
How are you going to TAX that electricity which is used for your car? Is it a stretch to say Gov't will need to make up the revenue loss, and will look at making up this fossil fuel tax revenue deficiency on OTHER power sources?

Solution:
Then you get into a TAX on all power bills to make it easier...then you piss off the poor, the elderly etc. who have no vehicles ...electrical power IS electrical power...general /generic delivery.Its the same regardless of how you use it... you don't roll up and buy it at a designated station.

Oh you skeptics say, put a METER on the outlet that delivers power solely to your electric car??? Well there are a lot of electric -meter bypass experts (...or amateurs ZZZAAAPPP) who will spawn another bypass industry as well as the established indoor agri-one.

Just some views....

Stand up?

So you're a stand up comedian then? Your stuff is old time, so you must be young and just discovering this stuff for the first time, congrats by the way, but remember doing things right, is not as important as doing the right thing. Learning accounting will only trap you into a negative feedback loop. Refer to Ed's many lessons on economics you've had, for free too! Now add up all the money spent on military, infrastructure for war measures and the cost of civilian lives. How much has the world spent just on protecting oil assets in just this century? If your going to try add give a lesson in Tax Accounting, at least try and hide your virginity with numbers in both columns.

I think Meastro's on to

I think Meastro's on to something. Since the Federal government agreed to share gas taxes with major Cities, those taxes are being used to fund water and waste systems.

If everyone switches to an electric car, we could be hip deep in doo-doo.

Taxing Electricity

Have you looked at your hydro bill lately?

It includes taxes and transit levies now in both the Lower Mainland and on the Island.

If consumption goes up, which it would if a lot of folks who were charging up their cars and trucks from the grid, those peoples' bills would be higher. Unless the rates changed, those who aren't using electric vehicles would not see an increase in their hydro charges. Billing is based on consumption, remember?

And since hydro, unlike the oil companies, still has the potential (on shaky ground given our current government and its direction) of being a publicly-owned crown corporation, any increase in revenue would go to the benefit of the whole province which would tend to reduce taxes over the medium to long term.

Not to worry about the reduction in oil company profits or the loss of tax revenue from gasoline sales. The benefits of reduced insult to the environment will save both remediation costs and health costs.

Plug in electrics are a good thing, which should be welcomed. Getting Enron out of the environment and the corner gas station is a great idea - no matter how you slice it.

Solar assist

I think my question about why there has not been a solar panel on the roof of an EV has been answered.

clubofrome: What club(or

clubofrome:

What club(or aquarium) are you performing at, and if I mention your name do I get a discount on the cover charge?

Try walking a tightrope with something NEW, not jumping through the rhetoric hoops, HEY! like a "Dolphin"!, which is what your post is...same OLDer OLD.

Given your last incoherent post, YOU are a prime candidate for the "6 month challenge" I posted earlier.

Ok "Sonny" ???
Our future is in your hands !!!!(....ooohh F*$#)

Wrong!

You are obviously still dizzy from my first response, so I'll let you have that last one for free. I've been around, and been kicked by bigger and dumber horses than you. If the way I posed my question got to you then my assumption of your age is probably correct. Of course not all humans mature at the same age! I suppose it's possible you are over 40, but it sure doesn't sound like it! Age and maturity aside, for a moment, and lets see if we can't focus on the question. So you're not an accountant, obviously not a comedian, Hmmm... Tax lawyer? What exactly is your purpose. Mine is to clean up the oceans/world of vermin....

clubofrome; No one has

clubofrome;

No one has really seriously accussed me of having another TYEE identity, but you "grasshopper" are exhibiting evidence of the aforementioned "usual TYEE rumour".

Purpose???...what is YOUR purpose ...or porpoise ..err dolphin? Clean the oceans/world of vermin ??? ..then good luck. Get some bait, a shop vac and a mop. BTW what's "vermin" to you??...I've heard that term used before...usually sad endings .

" For free" ?? your type wants everything for free, especially if it ain't yours to start.

Regardless, Don't tell me your "personal kinks " like getting kicked by bigger and dumber horses...thats your business. Don't wake up the neihbours. Its a free country at least "free will" (Not "Free Willy" that's another ocean reference.

However, that was horse"s" in plural(not sea horses?) , so you must like going back for more whereas my advice is stay away from the 4 legged hayburners. Out of curiousity, the where did the horses nail you ,...in the front or back of the head?

Dizzy ??? sorry guess again...FTR ...sorta had ya fig'd out early on...though I thought I'd cut ya a bit of slack first.

Now , go back to the hoops of Mighty Vermin Fighter.

Good Rant!

I like a good rant. It would be even better if it was relelvant. I don't know who you have confused me with, but I'd advise getting your inhaler checked out. Another identity? Bait? All your animal references seem to originate from a joke I have shared with a few other posters about a fictitious political Dolphin Party. At least fictious as far as you are concerned. I can't have you waving signs and foaming at the mouth outside our monthly meetings at the aquarium, you'll frighten the fish! Hell you're frightening me now! The horse that got me was back in the violent days of the Western Hockey League, it's a term we use when we get humbled by an opponent. It applies to verbal sparring as well. That's why your posting makes no sense. You've been kicked and not even that hard. But you appear to be so stunned that you've confused me with your supervisor at the petting zoo. It's unlikely you will convince anyone here that you have me or anything else figured out. You on the other hand, if I may be so bold... you appear to have a problem distinguishing fantasy from reality. I'd say you are also a little bit paranoid. Drop an extra nickle in Lucy's booth next time you stop in there...

Maestro at al: You all are

Maestro at al:

You all are making it way to compicated:
http://www.discover.com/issues/nov-01/features/featlovin/

To the Rant Captain

Western Hockey League eh...

Did you remember to take your skate guards off? Are they having a casting call for SlapShot III ?

Was poutine invented then when you were flogging fries at the hockey rink , Dr Suzuki?(Damn, their goes clubofrome's secret identity number 347 )

Real hockey players fear nothing...you seem a little damp in the diaper.

By the way, MR. ED the talking horse really couldn't talk, it was an ad -libbing Dolphin Ventriloquist. How close did you come to the getting the role of Ace Ventura , or was it literally a bio-pic ?

Now, get back to the ocean with your wind -powered shop vac and solar- powered mop and clean up the world.

PS Not so it was a total loss, thanks for answering my question...the horse obviously nailed you on both the Front AND Back
of the head.

You seriously can't believe your own posts...look whose the real comedian. Now, go back to the aquarium....and gets those skates sharpened.

MVF!

As Mighty Vermin Fighter, I have these ultra sleek and uber sexy tights that show off all the bulges that super hero fans crave. Plus I have a cape... I send autograghed pictures out to all my fans for free. You will have to send a self addressed and stamped envelope and then maybe.... You can reach me, Mighty Vermin Fighter, care of the aquarium. Ad-libbing Dolphin Ventriloquist... not bad...

It's quiet in here...

Too quiet. I think we lost him...

WAC

Nice picture of the former premier. Though I thought he and his son were shills they certainly stood up for what they believed (and got some Hydro projects named after them).
Danged if I did not realize he "built this Province"

oops

Did I call the Bennets "Shills"? Is that a real word? If so exactly what did I libel them with - I did not say that they were such, I said that I thought of them that way. Where is Elliot when you need him?

Shill - defined

Shill: A decoy, an accomplice, esp. one posing as an enthusiastic or successful customer to encourage buyers, gamblers, etc.
transf. an adherent of a party, point of view, etc. posing as a disinterested advocate.

I'd say, Ken, you have them dead to rights.

Once again, Rafe makes sense..

Rafe Mair should be considered the Wise Uncle or Wise Elder of BC imho. Let's listen to his wisdom. I, for one, have done so and have started teaching my students, Rafe's One Planet and Sustainable Ways wisdom in ways that are relevant and fun.

For example .. Plastic-Neutral:

PLASTIC NEUTRAL - One small way to make plastic extinct -- manufacturing plastics uses up tons of energy -- just like manufacturing batteries. One website states that it takes 50X the energy, to make an small non-rechargeable AA battery, than the battery actually produces -- not to mention the waste disposal issues. Think of plastic as you would a non-rechargeable battery -- a huge energy-drain.

I'd going to try to be somewhat "plastic-neutral" by reUSEing my plastic. And you can also help become plastic-neutral, too. How? Give my summer school students your **clean** plastic salad boxes, tubes, PVC pipes (from construction renovation), plant pots, shoe boxes, salad spinners, yogurt containers, and any other object that could conceivably made into a musical intrument -- where they will be used to teach inventive, creative, recycling -- at the Sustainable Music Factory. I'll provide drop off locations - school and college locations in Vancouver, West Van, and North Van in a follow up post.

Note that these kids won't just be bashing the trash into bongos and drums -- instead, they'll also be creating diatonic tuned instruments -- banjos and violin-like instruments that the students will keep because they'll be busking, like the Human Carillon, with their plastic creations, too (when they get of age, earning a living without getting on the 'corporate jjob' treadmill, hopefully. Or become craftspeople or invenors.)

I'd like to know how many people on this board would like to give us their reUSEable plastic trash? C'mon, let's see if you can walk your talk.

But, if you've got a better idea, that is along the lines of what Rafe suggests, let's hear it.

Joke time: A silly old man is a fossil fool.